Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out (3)

[Ginger1]

LH- what does “work to WIN you” exactly mean ?

Did you mean if she’s willing to work to repair the marriage ?

[LH19]

LH- what does “work to WIN you” exactly mean ?

Did you mean if she’s willing to work to repair the marriage ?

Yep. She slept with another dude. She needs to take the lead to earn another chance with him.

My guess is that this is waaaayyyyyyyy down the road.

[PeterB]

Peter, I've heard fantasies from some who didn't reach piecing that their ex would beg for it. That doesn't match my reality or most situations I've read, but when you're at that stage their desire is obvious and they're making it happen. You don't have to guess.

Yeah I don't expect her to beg. Actually I don't think she is reasonable enough atm to even calmly ask an exploratory question like, "How will you repair this R?". Last night she said she wants to talk and then she went off like a pressure cooker, repeating the same accusations like "you are fake", "you are dismissive", "you have not taken responsibility" and so on. My words and actions after BD have been quite contradictory to these but she says them anyway, no doubt to insult me. Overall the conversation style is truly bizarre, I have no way to properly describe it.

It sounds like she's currently in more of an uncertain stage where she's considering what she wants to do with her life but you expect that to change. May opted for Discernment Therapy at this point.

I am too busy with GAL to even consider discernment therapy. It will be a waste of my time given her current mental disposition. If she can keep her anger and nastiness down then I may consider. I am fine if serves the papers.

The good news, if you get to piecing, you don't need to build trust in a day. That's a common concern! It typically returns but can take months or years of consistent behavior.

Love this point. One thing she keeps telling me is - 'I do not trust you at all'. Little does she know that the feeling is mutual.

You should consider what you require for piecing. No requirements are a common cause of failure here. When sneakiness is involved--I can't recall if your W told you it was over before sleeping with OM--a common requirement is access to her cell phone, e-mail accounts, etc... and not vice-versa. That would help you rebuild trust that the sneakyism is over.

[/quote]

Hence this discussion. She never told me about the OM and has flatly lied yesterday - I told her that I have preconditions to any work towards R - "... this is not an exhaustive list but I need you to reduce your anger as nothing can be solved within anger, you need to be respectful, not throw insults at me and you cannot have another man as an option". She replied - "there was never any man and you are making me want to puke because you are dismissing all your responsibility and blaming everything on me".

Later she actually had the indecency to tell me "you are just an option for me" in front of my son. I had told her several times not to bring up this topic in front of my son but she repeatedly does it - basically no regard at all for what I said. I enforced my boundary and left the space.

[BL42]

PeterB,

Sounds like she's spewing a lot of anger. Make sure you continue to stay calm, collected, and in control. Listen and validate; don't argue. Keep up the boundary enforcement / not accepting the disrespect.

[PeterB]

PeterB,

I'd warn you that IF she did get dumped it doesn't necessarily mean she wants to reconcile. My ExW hand OM2 lined up very quickly after things ended with OM1...before she even moved out. So as hard as it is don't focus on OM or bank on a breakup between them the catalyst to R. Obviously better if they broke up than not, but guard your expectations.

Yeah I am not assuming that. It's just that she said things that indirectly meant she wants to talk about a repair. For example, she told me in a huff that I really need to improve myself if I want to repair the relationship. When she said she wanted to talk I was pretty sure she would use it as an excuse to launch at me, snap at everything I say and blatantly twist my words, something like, I say "I meant horse", response: "So you meant window. That is why I don't trust you one bit". That is exactly what happened btw. I had initially said I don't want to talk because you are not ready. She got crazy angry at that. I gave an inch and said okay we can have a discussion. Then she used that discussion to run a road roller on me (went badly from first sentence itself). It does not matter what I say - the response is always nasty. It's like pushing me into a trap.

Also...you're speculating a lot. You have a "strong feeling that she got dumped by OM",

It is speculation, but quite likely the truth.

If she's still being nasty to you to me that doesn't sound like a sign she wants to R.

Yes I fully agree. And even if she wants to somewhere deep in her mind, the nastiness will definitely fail any efforts towards R.

[PeterB]

Peter I would suggest you double down on GAL right now.

Will do. I have a solo travel coming up and really pumped up for it.

If you engage in a relationship with her again it should only be under the conditions that:

1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value

She does not. Far from it. She is probably only thinking how I can be of some use to her. At this time I am just an object of her angst. She slept poorly, she got angry, she screamed at me - I am blamed for everything and then it spirals into more vitriol.

3) She's willing to work to win you

She is not willing to. I told her that if she is interested in R, she will also have to work on herself too. She went off the rails - "what have I done?", "it's all you", "you have treated me poorly", "i have done nothing wrong", "you are not owning up to your problems" etc.

[LH19]

I told her that if she is interested in R, she will also have to work on herself too.

The three biggest things she's dealing with right now are fear and uncertainty about the future, guilt for what she's doing to you and your son, and anger and resentment over your role in pushing her to this point.

Everything you do right now is going to make her either more resentful, or less resentful.

If you increase her guilt, by blaming, shaming, or making her responsible for your emotional state, she's going to resent you more.

If you give her space, it’s going to make her less resentful.

If you live your own life, and are happy and joyful for your own sake, it’s going to make her less resentful.

If you are respectful in your communications with her, but not intimate, it’s going to make her less resentful.

*Eventually* she will burn through that big pile of resentment.

*Eventually* she will process her anger at you and it will dissipate.

UNTIL she goes through both of those processes, she will not see you as anything other than she believes you to be based on her prior training.

WHILE she is processing her anger and resentment, YOU work on your changes. You do it slowly and methodically *for you*.

If you're a 2 today, you don't focus on being a 10, you focus on being a 3. Then you focus on being a 4. You be kind to yourself.

While her anger and resentment are burning down, your changes are building up.

When eventually she's had enough time and space that she can SEE YOU again, she'll be surprised by what she sees, and she'll question for the first time the assumptions she has held about you.

THAT is the beginning of your opportunity to turn things around, but you CANNOT control how long it will take her to process her anger and resentment, and you CANNOT accelerate it.

Buckle your seatbelt, it’s a marathon and you have to be patient and surrender to the fact that this relationship is NOT something you can control right now.

That's an uncomfortable feeling, but the sooner you own that fact, the better you'll do.

She went off the rails - "what have I done?", "it's all you", "you have treated me poorly", "i have done nothing wrong", "you are not owning up to your problems" etc.

This is a marathon, not a sprint. You have to play the long game.

Even if you do everything 100% perfectly starting today, this is still a months/years-long turnaround.

When you live with someone, there is a huge motivation to keep the peace. Everyone wants peace in their lives. If you blew up over every little thing that happened between you, you would both be miserable.

As such, you push things down and gloss over them as you live together, and the consequence of that is that resentment builds.

If resentment builds too much over time, eventually it becomes "too much" and people start contemplating an exit from the relationship. During this period, the relationship is really "on trial" but the other party is usually totally unaware of it.

Once the trial is over and the person has more or less resolved to leave, you're on the tail end of a year’s long process. It goes "things are overall good, but this stuff is annoying" -> "These things are really annoying but not bad enough that I want to leave" -> "These things are really annoying and I don't know if I can stay" -> "These things are really annoying and now I have to get out"

Unfortunately, in many cases the "annoying things" were never even articulated, or if they were, not with enough gravity. Once the "I need to leave" point is reached, whatever those things are get magnified and new ones get invented to help convince the departing partner that they are making the right choice, fort an act in self-reinforcement which sometimes requires lots of fabrication.

Over time, you have *trained each other* what to expect from the other. She knows how you will react to any given situation, what you will say, how you will act, and she has decided that's not compatible with what she wants.

If you decide you don't want that either, and decide to make a change for yourself, initially she'll think you're just doing it as a gambit to get her back and as soon as she lets her guard down, you'll revert to who you "really are" in terms of who you've trained her that you are.

In order to turn this around she needs to *fully believe* that you've changed, and that you're not doing it just to get her back.

How do you convince her of that?

(1) Repetition, lots and lots of repetition in terms of reacting differently, acting differently, than you have historically.

(2) Acting differently when no one is looking

(3) Finding a life for your new self that doesn't require her. That's the only way you make it credible that your changes are for you. She won't even see them until she believes that you don't need her.

[Ready2Change]

Would really appreciate any suggestions and advice.

I will give my 2 cents.

Any resources on DB about piecing,

You are not at piecing. You are still at the busting phase.

I have a strong feeling that she got dumped by OM when she traveled. Some of her behavior soon after she came back is consistent with distress related to the rejection.

How much more attractive (to women in general) are you than when you first arrived here? Are you skilled in new ways of interacting with women?

She is also making some overtures with me

Can you be specific?

and said she wants to talk. She has not stopped being nasty so I told her I can only talk if I feel she is ready to have a reasonable and respectful conversation. She went ballistic.

How good were you at listening and validating?

like preconditions, if I should even accept, what to look out for if I suspect she is considering piecing etc?

You listen to her. You do not reveal your cards. Have you read through my quote threads...I know this has been discussed before and there were lots of good insights.

[Ready2Change]

I don't expect her to beg

It is all about HER feelings. She has to feel remorse and feel like she made a terrible mistake and that she has lost you. That is when the begging begins. Until then, you have not busted this divorce.

then she went off like a pressure cooker

Good. she is still emotionally invested in you.

Listening is good. If responses are needed then:

"you are fake"

"I am sorry you feel that way"

"you are dismissive"

"I understand you feel that way"

"you have not taken responsibility"

"I can see why you would think that"

Those are just simple examples that lets the other person know that they have been heard. You are not agreeing, but shows you are listening.

If she can keep her anger down

Be the rock and a safe place for her to vent her anger.

and nastiness down

Know the difference from disrespect and do not let treat you mad. Use your words and actions to set and enforce your personal boundaries. Her parents didn't teach her this. You can.

One thing she keeps telling me is - 'I do not trust you at all'. Little does she know that the feeling is mutual.

A place to truth dart "reverse babble" her "I understand the lack of trust". One of Coaches tactics that helped get his wife back. I believe this may be used sparingly. The goal is to reduce her resentment. not fuel it.

"you are just an option for me" in front of my son.

There are so many ways to respond to this. One of my mantras "The one who reacts emotionally first looses". I would flips this and use humor with a "Don't be so sure". Definitely with a twinkle in my eye.You are a man with options and you are vetting her.

I had told her several times not to bring up this topic in front of my son but she repeatedly does it - basically no regard at all for what I said. I enforced my boundary and left the space.

Telling her how to behave is controlling behavior. Do more work in this area.

[Ready2Change]

I told her.

Why are you telling her anything? You are talking way to much. STFU is the rule right now. You are listening and understanding her. That is it.

She went off the rails

Listen. Understand her emotions. You are strong and can handle her "scary" emotions.

"you have treated me poorly"

"I am sorry. That was not my intention."

If a response is required: "I understand you feel that way" works for these. Do not over use this phrase.

", "it's all you", "i have done nothing wrong", "you are not owning up to your problems"

Can you come up with a good response?