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DnJ #2935249 06/23/22 05:43 PM
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D-how nice to have had such a lovely day with your dad. Those are the memories that you will likely carry forward, less so the scary events that followed. Interesting that he has this problem on repeat. Do they have any idea what is causing it?

You probably won't be surprised, but J's antics seem a little different to me than mentally ill. As you know, I have lots of plants. Didn't always. Do now. I have plant species I like, I'm not trying to collect them all and I'm not trying to propagate as many as I can. I did have a silver vase plant (type of bromeliad with a beautiful flower that blooms a long time) produce 4 pups as the mother plant was dying off. I harvested these and have them growing to give away to friends. I do think of them as little babies. I think for those of us with really strong mothering instincts, we need a place to put that when our kids don't need us so much. J lost her kids, so obviously that compounds matters, but she spent a lifetime caring for kids. Not surprising that she would want to "mother" something else. Maybe the birds just weren't her thing. Cats can be a pain with plants. Perhaps why they are now outside.

I follow some groups on FB for plant lovers. The rainwater, letting water sit before use, sticking fingers deep into plants to test dryness way down, very common and the wisdom espoused in all of these groups. Sounds like she is latching on to the common wisdom of her new passion and perhaps applying the same logic for herself as a living thing. I was a vegetarian for 7 years and did some things then I think back on as a little kooky now.

I've always joked that I have asbestos fingers. I often grab hot things others would not. I don't plunge my hands in oil, so that sounds a bit extreme, but perhaps as you said it is just very bad circulation.

Running to grab him a beer, sitting on a little stool, seeming to seek permission. Is it possible there is some BDSM stuff going on over there? I had a coworker/friend who went through very obvious MLC type changes and believes he had an MLC who became very involved in that scene. He told me that he enjoyed being submissive with a dominatrix because he felt that he always had to take charge IRL and he wanted an outlet from that. Perhaps the egg man tapped into some latent BDSM tendencies or something.

Or possibly, she enjoys feeling protected. I realized after my X was gone that I did not take my thyroid meds because him putting them out for me and asking me if I had taken them was one of the only ways in which I really ever felt love from him. Looking back this is easy to understand because my mother did not show love, has not really ever told me she loved me, but she will often do something nice for me (buy me something I want, notice something I need, remember to ask me about something I've mentioned, etc.).

And is it hard to see that holding onto the social money or trying unartfully to get herself involved are her trying to connect, bids for affection, attempts at reconnection (especially since you said she was always uber involved in all of these sorts of things)? Perhaps not good ones, but attempts nonetheless. Similar to her holding onto the inheritance money as a means of keeping the door open. I've seen similar things play out in my own situation and rather than look at them and find them lacking I try to look at them and see the effort in face of the obvious fear of rejection.

As a first step in believing in MLC, I think you do have to believe the person is undergoing a personal crisis of some kind. As you know, I just reposted an awakening narrative I found, I have other examples collected over the years, and all rife with fantastical stuff. This stuff may look a little cray-cray to others (but how many of us would not seem a little cray-cray to people who only saw glimpses of us)? A person in crisis is not showing up as their best self, but I don't think it means she's crazy or a lost soul, beyond salvation, or even pitiable. I think she is an adult woman who made choices for herself without thinking through the consequences of those choices, which have likely turned out to be much more severe than she could consider when she was thick in the limerant cocktail. I think it is obvious from her attempts that she has some regret there (desperation to get into contact, scheming to be involved, holding things ransom) and given your kids and the people they are, that has to be some really powerful regret. I called my thread what I did for a reason. Maybe soon I'll be able to write why. Don't give up on her D.

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OwnIt #2935252 06/23/22 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by OwnIt
A person in crisis is not showing up as their best self, but I don't think it means she's crazy or a lost soul, beyond salvation, or even pitiable. I think she is an adult woman who made choices for herself without thinking through the consequences of those choices, which have likely turned out to be much more severe than she could consider when she was thick in the limerant cocktail.
Thank you Own it. This has always been my thoughts of people going through "MLC". Excellent way of putting it.


M:51 W:46
T:22 M:16
S:15 D:11

�Happiness equals reality minus expectations�- Magliozzi
DnJ #2935256 06/23/22 08:06 PM
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re: plants as babies. i'm an herbalist, as was my grandmother. My grandparents and parents were master gardeners. lots of ties to the plant/herbal community. many of us do call our plants our babies, but I've not heard of anyone actually wanting to cut holes in the ceiling for their plants to grow, which is, well, odd to say the least.

the extreme weight loss, the extremes of exercising, the hyper-sexuality - I'm no medical professional, but I've wondered if she's hyperthyroid.

The poor circulation - I've wondered if she's got Raynaud's syndrome.

The manipulation - I agree with Own's assessment - she's trying to make herself relevant to her children.

What's astounding is how she left and said in front of the kids - I don't want them - but perhaps the deep regret is fueling the manipulative behavior.

The running to get beverages. I'm an Italian female. Never in my lifetime did I ever see my mother NOT jump to get something for Dad. All he had to do was look around the table and she would immediately ask, "What do you need" then we would both jump to get it. I never realized it was not the norm in everyone's house until exh, then bf, ate his first dinner with my family and witnessed this phenomenon, later commenting on it. So, that in and of itself isn't strange to me.

The sitting on a box ... like Own said, maybe they're doing some 50 shades of gray thing over there, who knows?

Safe to say no one is at their best during a divorce or separation.

Safe to say stress and grief contribute to poor decision-making for everyone, not just MLCrs.

Not to re-open the "There's no such thing as MLC" debate, because that's a cheese-less tunnel, to use the DB vernacular - we can all agree, I think, on this:

1. J's life is very different now than it was
2. J's relationship with each of her children is very different now than it was
3. J is living a life that makes sense to her, even though it leaves some of us scratching our heads

The more important questions for you:

1.Are you currently living a life which makes sense to you? (I'm pretty sure I know the answer to that)
2. Given your pending retirement, do you have a vision of what the next 12 months will be like for you, post-retirement?

My exh probably thinks I'm crazy because of my herbalism/aromatherapy/reiki/shamanic work. I'm pretty d@mn sure he was making fun of me for having baby chicks in my downstairs bathroom, despite the fact that their brooder was cleaned daily. Had I a garage or heated basement, they would have been there instead. I think his excessive spending is shocking. I wouldn't go to Vegas on vacation if you paid me (well, wait a minute, how much are we talking because I could use some spare cash and can I just see live shows and not gamble?). Bougie restaurants are ok once in a while, but not on the regular, and much as I can be a gear head, spending damn near 6 figures on a vehicle is absurd. That's a freaking down payment on an income property for eff's sake. It's all about priorities, values and interests and we can pretty much all agree that the people here and their ex spouses no longer share the same priorities, values or interests. So, given that - maybe it's not a bad thing not to be married to them any longer?


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D Final 12/23/16

If we don't look into the darkness we won't find the light.

Walk along the side of the road with a bag & you're gonna end up with a lot of trash!
DnJ #2935274 06/24/22 03:49 AM
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Hello

Had a enjoyable supper with D20 after work today. Real good conversation about life, work, love life (her’s smile she’s got a boyfriend), education, and Mom.



Originally Posted by bttrfly
What I mean is, just keep being yourself, kind, honest, neutral is best.

Does this make sense?

Yep, makes sense.


Originally Posted by AndrewP
I'm glad that they have both been able to easily spot the cause of your Dad's issues and also - sad as it is to think of - been able to do a dry run of his care wishes with the staff from the facility. It should hopefully be clear on the protocols to use when the inevitable next time comes around.

You are correct. This dry run was a good thing. I am kind of amazed how well it went this time compared to last. Having all that paperwork done is such a good thing.

I enjoyed your musing and recalling. Oh my, eleven brooms I think it was.

There was certainly a rebellious “you’re not the boss of me” attitude displayed right after BD. Brash and flaunting. Rather typical methinks.

Originally Posted by AndrewP
One thing I will suggest that you give a bit of mind-space to is the idea that you could be grateful that this all happened outside of your space. It's easy to imagine her going in these same directions but not including the OM component and you having little power to stop it. I know that given some of my xW's behaviours, especially her rage were things I was grateful to not have to deal with.

If I understand you - yes, so true. I am grateful her behaviour happened elsewhere. Interesting how blessed I was. Funny how prayers are answered; seldom how we think they should be. Lol.

Originally Posted by AndrewP
An open question would be how long will OM and his son put up with this. The son is obviously resentful but it would be unclear on how much influence that would have on his father. Is OM a strong enough person to put his foot down and insist on a livable space for them?

That is a good question. For the moment, I’d say OM will put up with things. He is not a strong person.

I do remember reading AmyC and Sandi2;. If I recall Any witnessed a motorcycle accident which resulted in the person dying pretty much in her arms. (Could’ve been another’s story, so many people, things do blur at times.) Sandi had finally heard what a person she respected was saying. Each had their own wake up call. I think J has yet to reach where and when she is ready for that.


kml, I do wonder how OM sees all this. I think the shininess is well worn off by now, and he (and J) see the prize they won.


Originally Posted by LH19
1. You know way too many details of your exws every interaction with your children.
2. Do you ever get the feeling that OM did you a big favor?
3. Do all women in Canada jump to make sure their spouse/boyfriend wants a beer because I see it a lot in my days in Canada?

3. Lol. It must be a subliminal thing from Canadian beer commercials.

2. Oh my, yes.

1. What an odd comment. I know all the details my children decide to share with me. That is not all the details, nor too many IMHO. They’ve already had one parent leave and not listen to them, they certainly don’t need two.

Originally Posted by BL42
I wonder the same as LH. This last update - and many others - have so many intricate details about your kids' interactions with J, J's living situation, and her relationship with OM. I know you want to be a caring father listening and empathizing with your kids who are also hurting/grieving but not sure where the line ends between that and you as ExH hearing details about his ExW? Your kids are adults. Might it be a good idea to tell them J's life is now hers and you don't need to hear the details of it? Not sure it serves you to hear & know all that? Just an observation/thought. Take it for what it's worth.

LH, BL, I appreciate the feedback.

I am a detail oriented guy. So I pay intricate attention to details.

I know you want to be a caring father listening and empathizing with your kids…

Correction:

I know you want to be are a caring father listening and empathizing with your kids…

This is who I am. I am not trying to do anything. I am doing. And doing really well too. This is like breathing to me, not something I have to focus to do, it’s sincere, it’s just who I am.

Open honest communication comes when you have trust and respect. It is like this at work, with my friends, and with my kids. There is a reason my kids and I are where we are. Comes from facing things head on, instead of not talking about it. And that serves me most well.

Some folks don’t want or cannot handle details. I am the opposite. I like to know why. I like to understand.

My kids are telling me about their life, which their Mom is part of and interacting with. Imagine how it would look and feel when a parent tells one to not tell them about their life.

My kids, friends, coworkers, and so on, (you guys too smile ), are free to discuss with me whatever is important to them. I am lucky and honoured to have such trust and conviction extended to me. And I have no intention of besmirching their belief in me (or me to myself either for that matter).


Originally Posted by Sage4
I don't have the capacity to go into the really, really hard details of my situation at the moment…

(((Hugs)))

I hear you.

Originally Posted by Sage4
…when I read you last post about all the J antics, there is a part of me that thought 'D has it easy'.

I did and do have it kind of easy. My situation is so overtly not about me. For a time, I so wanted a more normal MLCer. Lol. Gosh, I was so naive. However, I see and understand the blessing of a vanisher and all the irrefutable evidence of an unhealthy person. Made my path a lot less complicated.


Own, you are correct Dad has inflections on repeat it seems. The doctors do not know a cause. They are proactively treating him, as best they can, and will have to do so for the remainder of his life.

I do get the green thumb. J’s behaviours just looks a bit over the top is all. She told D20 she was quite worried about giving her “grand babies” to her, as she figured they would die in D20’s care.

Mom had to teach daughter how to care for her plants. During this tutorial of watering and such, D20 was instructed to take the plants to the piano for daily music playing. To stroke the plants to comfort them. And, interestingly, Mom pointed out one of her house plant that talks to her; it tells her when the other plants need water.

I believe in lots of stuff. And I’m pretty open to the supernatural, ghosts, spirits and what not. Heck, I’ve witnessed and felt the power of dowsing. My grandmother could find water by divine methods. She would use an inverted Y branch and walk around until it moved in her hands, which indicated water underneath. I tried and felt nothing, until she placed her hands upon the branch. That’s all - just touch the branch and it came alive like a snake. In fact, and I am not exaggerating, my Dad held the stick tightly, grandma touch it, and the branches twisted so much it ripped the bark off of itself. Now what can cause such power. Amazing stuff. So, perhaps J isn’t completely off her rocker. Her plants are certainly healthy. And her claims to see the electrical fields of oranges (while picking through the orange pile at the grocery store) did find good tasty Christmas oranges according to S24. Still…talking plants?!?

I do agree with what you say regarding MLC/crisis and her path. She seems desperate, and displays regret.

Originally Posted by OwnIt
Don't give up on her D.

Thanks.


Originally Posted by bttrfly
1. J's life is very different now than it was
2. J's relationship with each of her children is very different now than it was
3. J is living a life that makes sense to her, even though it leaves some of us scratching our heads

I agree.

Originally Posted by bttrfly
1.Are you currently living a life which makes sense to you? (I'm pretty sure I know the answer to that)
2. Given your pending retirement, do you have a vision of what the next 12 months will be like for you, post-retirement?

A resounding yes to both!

My life makes sense. And is one I want. One I look forward too.

I look upon my retirement less in the light of running away from something and more running to something. Caveat, and disclosure, obviously work is messed up as I have vented here about it, so I am so happy to be gone. Yet the excitement of this new stage of life exceeds the reasons of leaving work. It’s a pretty cool place to be in.


So, I work tomorrow and then vacation for three weeks. Then a two weeks work, two weeks vacation pattern until I turn 55. Gives me like 42 days (or something) left to actually work. Yay!

Take care all.

D


Now: Me54 XW51 S25 S23 S21 D20

Oct 8/17-BD, Moves in w/OM, Leaves Kids
Me49 W46 S20 S19 S16 D15
M26 T29
Dec 9/17-Legal Separation
Oct 3/18-W Files
Apr 6/19-Divorced

Love the Sinner, Forgive the Sin.
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DnJ #2935283 06/24/22 11:07 AM
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D fair point. I should have said I wouldn’t want to know all the details.


M:51 W:46
T:22 M:16
S:15 D:11

�Happiness equals reality minus expectations�- Magliozzi
DnJ #2935330 06/27/22 01:25 PM
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Good Morning

Ah. The first day of three weeks vacation. Today’s plan is to mow the grass. The lawn is well overdue from all the rain around here. And all that rain has a tall lush green field awaiting me. smile

Yesterday, Sunday, I went out to my best friend’s cabin and we cut some grass and got things readied for use. We had a good visit and enjoyed the sunny day. He and his wife are coming out next weekend for the wedding shower and social.

On Saturday, S23 and GF (soon to be daughter-in-law) dropped by for a Father’s Day visit.

It is five days until the social and son told me he has folks calling him because they haven’t received their social tickets from J. They’ve paid, but no admission tickets. Sheesh.

J, and each of the sellers, only had a certain number available to sell. I can’t see her over selling, well maybe. The more likely cause is her pre-selling and then forgetting to follow up and get the physical ticket to the buyer. It’s literally one mile from OM’s house to the town, and she is in town all kinds of time - biking around, cleaning homes, cutting grass, picking up pharmaceuticals to deliver, etc, so ample opportunity to drop off tickets.

Son is keeping a list of affected folks and will ensure they can get in without problem.

It’s a beautiful sunny day here. Clear blue sky and a nice gentle breeze.

Take care all.

D


Now: Me54 XW51 S25 S23 S21 D20

Oct 8/17-BD, Moves in w/OM, Leaves Kids
Me49 W46 S20 S19 S16 D15
M26 T29
Dec 9/17-Legal Separation
Oct 3/18-W Files
Apr 6/19-Divorced

Love the Sinner, Forgive the Sin.
DnJ #2935336 06/27/22 08:01 PM
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Dear D,

Sorry I haven't replied before. Time is my worst enemy right now...

I have read on a regular basis, I do this every night in my bed, just before going to sleep but on my phone, and that is not the most ideal way to answer extensively. Then there are more typos than anything else. grin

First of all, I'm sorry to hear that your father was not doing well again. Thankfully, he's back to his good old self.

Originally Posted by DnJ
I will share some of J’s antics. However, before I do. A word regarding appearing to gloat and my sounding happy. I am happy! Son and I had a really good talk about this. And he is likewise happy.
I love my life. I am happy with it. And therefore I am happy with everything that has brought me to this place and time. Happy, accepting, content, it gets a bit mixed together. However, I hope you get the idea.
I am passionate about things and I suppose that mixed with being joyful and content with life sounds gloating and gleeful regarding J’s behaviour and relationship with her kids, OM, and the world. It is her path. I’m just reporting it, and not getting dragged down with her.
This justification is not necessary at all. I know why you do it, but take it from me, we know you are one happy person!
This forum is meant to be able to share everything you want to say about your situation. We can all learn from this, after all. So thank you for writing so openly.

What more can I say than the fact that J is still seriously way out of control. I think it's fantastic that your son can share everything with you, his father. I personally think this is a very important fact, after all they still have to go somewhere and that you can do this is a clear sign that they feel 100% comfortable to tell everything they experience. Is even an immediate form of processing which can only be positive.

The submissive form she takes with OM is particularly special to read. If I may share my humble opinion, it sounds like she's a maid to OM (and his son). A convenience for doing the household, meanwhile there is also money on the table with her bizarre job of supplying "medication" for the pharmacies. Perhaps a task that she carries out on behalf of OM?

In any case, not a good situation to raise children. Be glad that all your children are adults and that they only have to deal with this sporadically. I also really sympathize with your D. For a woman this must be even harder that her mother behaves like a competitor towards her. Unbelievable…

Originally Posted by DnJ
It’s her path, and I am not letting it drag me down. My kids are watching me and following. It’s the best I can come up with.
Indeed, you can do no more.

Originally Posted by DnJ
1. What an odd comment. I know all the details my children decide to share with me. That is not all the details, nor too many IMHO. They’ve already had one parent leave and not listen to them, they certainly don’t need two.
I know you want to be are a caring father listening and empathizing with your kids…
This is who I am. I am not trying to do anything. I am doing. And doing really well too. This is like breathing to me, not something I have to focus to do, it’s sincere, it’s just who I am.
Open honest communication comes when you have trust and respect. It is like this at work, with my friends, and with my kids. There is a reason my kids and I are where we are. Comes from facing things head on, instead of not talking about it. And that serves me most well.
Some folks don’t want or cannot handle details. I am the opposite. I like to know why. I like to understand.
My kids are telling me about their life, which their Mom is part of and interacting with. Imagine how it would look and feel when a parent tells one to not tell them about their life.
My kids, friends, coworkers, and so on, (you guys too smile ), are free to discuss with me whatever is important to them. I am lucky and honoured to have such trust and conviction extended to me. And I have no intention of besmirching their belief in me (or me to myself either for that matter).
I follow in full. I have the exact same relationship with my kids. They know they can share anything with me.

Originally Posted by DnJ
It’s a beautiful sunny day here. Clear blue sky and a nice gentle breeze.
Enjoy your holiday D!!


Me (44) EXH (42)
M:15 T:19, S17, S14 & S14
04/19 - 02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20 - 11/21 OW2
10/21-01/22 Short awakening
02/22 Back in Lalaland - OW2 exposed - Divorce official
I let go
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DnJ #2935339 06/27/22 09:34 PM
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my exh's father was ALWAYS in competition with my exh. The scars are lasting and horrible to see. He didn't have a parent like you, D, to help with this.


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D Final 12/23/16

If we don't look into the darkness we won't find the light.

Walk along the side of the road with a bag & you're gonna end up with a lot of trash!
DnJ #2935373 06/28/22 03:43 PM
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Good Morning

The mowing took six hours yesterday. Lawn looks great!

I had some tress and branch’s down from the storms, which added to the day as I needed drag them off into the wood pile or bush line. Two of note. A twenty foot tree was blown down. It weighted around 400 lbs I’d guess. Maybe more. I walked it out of the grove it was wedged in by lifting one end, pivoting the tree, and then repeating for the other end. Once clear I lifted the stump end and dragged the tree over to the lawn’s edges and similarly pivoted it into the tall grass line and bushes. Of course, it was pointing completely the wrong direction and I needed to first turn it 180 degrees.

I didn’t feel like getting the chain saw, and manhandling is something I do partake in once in a while. Although most times I am more pragmatic and elegant in solutions and action, rather than brute force. It was quite a tree to drag the 70 or so feet. I was huffing and puffing after that. And of course there were no branches close to the stump to provide a good handhold for dragging, just squeeze tight and push with your legs. (Err, boy could that be taking out of context.)

The other heavy item was a seven foot stump of a previously blown over tree. A tree, that a few years ago did require a chain saw to clean up, being around 18” in diameter. The stump finally fell over and luckily split in half lengthwise so I could lift it, pivot it onto the front mower deck, and drove it over to the wood pile. I was even further away from the lawn’s edge, so no manhandling here. Well less manhandling. And I was still panting. smile Anyhow, two trips, and all cleaned up.

The day’s gentle breeze lasted for about the first 30 minutes of my six hour tour. It became a forceful wind. The day was hot and the wind cooled somewhat, but it really kept the bugs away. Yay!

I finished my mowing by the dog pen and swing area, both on the east side of the house and within a nice grove lilacs and caragana, with hundred forty year old elms in the middle. The bushes and trees block much of the horizon towards the north, east, and south; and the house blocks the horizon to the west. I parked the mower in the barn/shed, removed my earmuffs, and heard the rumble of thunder.

To the north was a huge thunderhead. To the west a wall of rain was approaching being blown in by that forceful wind. I let out the dogs, filled up their water bucket at the hand pump; both dogs eagerly drinking from the fresh water. One right from the pump as the water flows out and splashes on her. I swear she is part otter or some such, she loves water. The other dog is prissy that way, and doesn’t like getting splashed. Lol. She tries to drink from the bucket as the water surges in, gets a few drops on her, gives a look of disgust, backs up, shakes, and in a few moments tries again. Once the bucket is full, and pumping stops, both are right in there.

I poured their food into their bowl and took them for a walk around the fresh lawn. They ran around, chasing each other, and got rather wounded up when I vigorously rubbed and scratched them. So funny watching dogs running so fast that their back end attempts to run faster than their front end.

Got them back to the pen and they dug into their food dish. I shook off the grass clippings from myself, my boots and socks; and entered my house as the rain started to pelt down, the wall of rain just arriving. It was a really good day.


Eagle, I hear you about typing on a phone. Lol. My typo rate is exponentially higher on that small screen, and it is high enough on my iPad.

By the way, Dad’s finished his IV and back in his room today.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I follow in full. I have the exact same relationship with my kids. They know they can share anything with me.

Two thumbs up!

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I also really sympathize with your D. For a woman this must be even harder that her mother behaves like a competitor towards her.

Originally Posted by bttrfly
my exh's father was ALWAYS in competition with my exh. The scars are lasting and horrible to see. He didn't have a parent like you, D, to help with this.

I figure it is good for kids to understand (and of course believe) that this has nothing to do with them. They certainly do not need to internalize J’s antics and blame themselves.

I keep my competing with my kids to the bocce course. Or croquet. Or video games. Where I usually get my @ss kicked. Lol.

Have a great day my friends.

D


Now: Me54 XW51 S25 S23 S21 D20

Oct 8/17-BD, Moves in w/OM, Leaves Kids
Me49 W46 S20 S19 S16 D15
M26 T29
Dec 9/17-Legal Separation
Oct 3/18-W Files
Apr 6/19-Divorced

Love the Sinner, Forgive the Sin.
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