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#2934907 06/13/22 02:53 PM
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Now: Me54 XW51 S25 S23 S21 D20

Oct 8/17-BD, Moves in w/OM, Leaves Kids
Me49 W46 S20 S19 S16 D15
M26 T29
Dec 9/17-Legal Separation
Oct 3/18-W Files
Apr 6/19-Divorced

Love the Sinner, Forgive the Sin.
DnJ #2934916 06/13/22 06:16 PM
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Good Morning

Kind of rainy day here. So no lawn mowing. I figure I’ll invest some time into my thread and myself. No real plan here, just going to talk away, quote some stuff, and see where it takes me.

There has been a persistent theme or suggestive push during my thread that I skipped over the anger stage. That I did not embrace it or express it. Thing is, my anger stage vs the anger stage.

I invested a lot of time and energy into why am I not white hot angry at J. My open honest scribing of the events and my path show me clearly not lashing out as many other have and do. And I do not mean just here, I mean in the world. The “normal” person seems quick to anger, from my vantage point. I’ve never been. This was something I was quite concerned with during my time as a mixed up lost scared newbie. Why wasn’t I angry? What’s wrong with me?

Now, this wasn’t anything new to me. Just temporarily forgotten with the dust and rubble of the destructive wake of J. I express my anger different from the norm, go through that stage of grief kind of sideways, always have.

My Dad’s paralysis, the death of my grandma, the death of my beloved dog, the death of my marriage, the loss of J, and other losses through out my life. My grief, I spend a time in denial. I then head into bargaining. After I exhaust that fruitless and necessary endeavour, I fall into depression. And I wallow around for a good long while. It is here where I express most of my anger.

See, when someone makes me angry - an interesting statement and concept. No one controls my feelings. Certainly one can trigger them. Events can trigger them. Yet, it is me that reinforces them. So, when someone makes me angry, it lasts for a bit. Their ability inciting me to anger quickly spent. I think this is true for everyone, the trigger evaporates rather fast, and that particular emotional response then flitting as it will as the person ceases reinforcing it (cools down). Of course, these marriage situations are contentious and plenty of times trigging events are repeated and from many different pathways and fronts of assault onto, and into, one’s psyche.

As the above list - paralysis and deaths - J’s exodus was one and done. Not much repeating. She threw everything and everyone away, and just left. The separation agreement was crafted and signed within 60 days of BD, effectively our divorce. A year later, we’ll eleven months, J applied for the actual divorce through the courts without my involvement or knowledge. 5 months later our divorce was accepted and granted by the courts. From BD to finalized divorce 18 months, which includes a mandatory one year cool down period and the court delay/processing time. I had few triggers from her. Sure plenty of triggers living in my house, life, sole custody, and among all “our” belongings; yet she basically vanished.

As I said, I slip into depression and spend the bulk of my grief there. For me, angry at J or whatever external force or person is just that - external. Grief is internal. My loss is internal. My path is about me. There is little point, passed the immediate trigger lash back, of me remaining angry towards an external entity or event. My feelings are about me. It’s about me.

Part of depression is anger turned inward. For me it is a big part. Always has been. I’ve worked towards some advice of purposefully making yourself angry. An IC, during my Dad’s paralysis, thinking I needed to express it physically suggested beating the crap out of a tree stump out in my bushes. I did give it a go. Lol. That is so not me. Nothing. I could not, would not?, dredge up anger towards God or Dad or fate or whatever or whomever. I went from the optimistic surgery will fix him; to bargaining what about some marrow transplant or some such, and other fanciful ideas which at the time I realize are fanciful (bargaining is so weird for me); then into depression.

I am quick to accept things. And accepting is about me, not the external event or person. I can’t change them or it; I can change me. And for me, depression is right before acceptance. Acceptance is emotional understanding. I do have a high emotional intelligence, and find acceptance pretty quick.

For those that haven’t guessed, I am a type INFJ, an Advocate. Not sure of subset, assertive or turbulent; to more overlaps. I have few friends, and for those that find themselves within my inner circle they know I have their back. I am highly loyal and live to high ideals and standards. I have lofty noble goals and walk towards that which truly matters. I cannot stand unfairness and champion for others, especially against the unfair treatment towards them. And oddly, that championing of others usually comes before myself. I care for the greater good, more than my own good (obviously up to a point smile ).

Originally Posted by Mach1
The "worm" in the tequila, is your anger.

I haven't seen much of that from you here, you have always worded yourself to indicate that you were taking everything in stride...Almost as if you were giving her a free pass...

And I get that. It is easier to write from a positive perspective. My own written words have always been goals for me. If I write about positive, then my thoughts are positive, therefore my goals are positive. And for me, written words gave myself accountability.

I agree Mach, positive wording choices, leads to positive thoughts, which leads to positive actions and behaviours. This then leads to positive values which is when wording is less chosen and more a reflection of self.

I do tend to write carefully, for the permanence of writing words, and my own accountability of self.

are you angry with her for this ? Not really.

Is there a part of you that wants to see this hurt her deeply ? Yes, there is a part of me. And there is a part of me that doesn’t. And a part of me indifferent towards it.

Is Papa bear wanting to see her hurt the way that she has hurt her children ? If her hurting helps her, yes. If she cannot ever awaken, then no. I do believe she can awaken or become better for her self and her children; and I do not take an active role in manipulation of her path. Obviously there is some affect upon her as I gently guide my adult children; which is becoming less and less.

I am flesh and blood. My vengeful part is a minor instrument that is my symphony. A necessary instrument, it doesn’t drown the orchestra, yet every now and then it gets to have a crescendo.

Originally Posted by Mach1
It is because of the values that you BOTH instilled into them, that allowed them to gravitate towards YOU when their character was thrown against the wall....

Absolutely!

J was an incredible Mom. She really was. And her turning from that was equally incredible.

J raised the kids. She instilled their values when they were young. She worked from home and was therefore, and thankfully for it provided so much for us, a stay at home Mom. Something that I strongly believe society has undervalued and sold out on.

The very values she (and I) instilled, are the very values and reasons that our kids have the limited and dutiful visits they do with J and OM.

Originally Posted by Mach1
D , this is a lighthouse moment for you.

An other of many. God knows, I am working to do right. For me. For my kids. And yes, for J. The latter receiving far less feedback about; takes a good deal of faith.


Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by DnJ
Accountability stings. Forgiveness is not a free pass. J can/should be held accountable for her actions. That is not punishment.

So I just wanted to have an open discussion on this topic of accountability and forgiveness. I am just working this through my head. Tell me where I am right and where I am wrong. I am wondering also where consequences come in?

So when I think of someone being held accountable for their actions I think of a child breaking a rule. Son you broke the rule and must be held accountable, your "punishment" is no TV for two weeks.

J you broke the rules of marriage and abandoned your family so your "punishment" is you will not speak at the wedding and not have a side of the family.

I hold my staff accountable everyday. It’s basically a mechanism for holding them responsible for their behaviour.

A person’s actions, words, behaviours is on them. As is the consequences or benefits derived from such. Something that sets me apart from most of my supervisory peers is my leadership. I’m not in charge, I care about those in my charge. I hold people accountable and provide positive feedback much more than negative. It is interesting how people see accountability, with the default position of being held accountable being punitive.

When someone does miss the mark, or fails in a task, or some such. Accountability also takes on another level - culpability. Non culpable actions which lead to the undesirable outcome are a mentoring opportunity, a training opportunity.

Culpable, willful, actions that lead to poor outcomes are a different matter. This is land of progressive management and discipline. Gentle steering and warnings are akin to setting boundaries. Clear and defined and needed behaviours are spelled out. As are the consequences of not meeting them; remember we are well into the demonstrated culpable and responsible and repeated behaviour at this point. Continued and further behaviour leads to time off and eventual termination.

Now given my trade and the lethal energies, severity of action/outcome has a great bearing upon the level of discipline. For well known, dangerous or unethical behaviours, one can be terminated as the first and only step in that process.

In the example of a child breaking a rule and then no TV for two weeks. I have to assume some context, however yes, that is punishment. If the child had previous warnings it is more consequences. Yet, I still lead to it being punishment over consequences, since I’d rather see consequences that tie to the rule that was broken. Meaningful consequences and reinforcement of positively given correction. Punishment is just punishing, and kind of lazy. Consequences and positive adjustment takes empathy, care, and personal effort; it’s not just laying down a fine.

Accountability stings. I hold myself accountable and it hurts when I mess up. Holding others accountable inspires such inner responsibility within themselves, and a great many positives come from such.

Recent events, J again asked about OM coming to the wedding. Son and GF do not want him there. To maybe ease that statement, since folks here don’t realize, I’m also not allowed to have a plus one either. This wedding is a limited seating thing. There are blood relatives that are not invited too. So OM is not allowed for lack of room, as well as not wanted there.

Anyhow, J asked again. She was told again. She then lashed out and said she wasn’t coming to the social. She was held accountable for her words and threat. Her consequences, Son and GF removed her from the schedule, as by J’s own words she is non responsible, and they needed someone to run the silent auction J was doing. The fact that the happy couple didn’t even want a silent auction and Mom secretly pushed it and manipulated GF’s sister into getting into play didn’t help things either.

Consequences - timely, current, and related to the infraction. Punishment would be kids not inviting her at all, in my opinion.

J’s lashing out and threatening not to attend is trying to punish and coerce, in my view.

Originally Posted by LH19
I think what Mach is saying and he may be back to clarify is you can't have MLC both ways. It is either this horrible entity that takes over and forces you to make horrible choices or it doesn't. If J has MLC she didn't choose to leave him and the kids it was the MLC that made her choose.

Originally Posted by LH19
So again I think he is saying you can't have it both ways. If she has MLC she should be excused for her bad parenting because it's the MLC that is causing it. If he truly believes that she is a bad parent as he stated above that he should just come out and own it.

I believe MLC is more a horrible force that consumes a poor hurt soul. That deeply hurt person makes choices designed to ease or end their pain. I hold them accountable for that non culpable decision.

Yes, this is a difficult razors edge to stand upon. Yet, I believe that to be the closest to the truth of my and really J’s situation.

The cause is long ago seeds that were planted. MLC, her crisis level behaviour and running from her pain, is current day actions and emotions.

J is not excused for her behaviour and parenting. She is forgiven. And forgiving is not a free pass.

As I’ve said, J was an awesome Mom. A much better parent than I for those young informative years. Present day, she is a terrible Mom. With hopefully some glimmers of betterment peeking out. Not sure how I can own this better than that. I’ve truly and sincerely supported my children regarding their Mom’s parenting. I’ve explained, not place boulders upon the path, and inspired forgiveness. Yet, if J burns down the bridge, she needs to rebuild it. Or ask for help when she is ready.

Originally Posted by bttrfly
It's a tough, tough line to tread as a parent when your kid asks you for some advice about something pertaining to the other parent --- one really has to keep being as neutral as possible in the forefront of one's mind at all times. I have faith that D did that here.

Yes, it is a fine line to walk.

I do appreciate all outpouring of care from everyone, and have faith I did pretty well.

Thanks to everyone for investing in me. I love you folks too.

D


Now: Me54 XW51 S25 S23 S21 D20

Oct 8/17-BD, Moves in w/OM, Leaves Kids
Me49 W46 S20 S19 S16 D15
M26 T29
Dec 9/17-Legal Separation
Oct 3/18-W Files
Apr 6/19-Divorced

Love the Sinner, Forgive the Sin.
DnJ #2934917 06/13/22 06:42 PM
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So, here is something I have wondered for a long time about.

What does an “awakening” entail?

Do you believe someone can “awaken” and still not want to return to the marriage and choose to stay with whom they are with ?

DnJ #2934919 06/13/22 08:04 PM
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Hello Ginger

I see several types of awakening. In its essence, awakening is simply exiting one’s transitive state or stage. I find awakening a wonderful term, much more than reserved for just a person in crisis. Though while within a crisis, people often described as like within a movie, kind of living outside one’s control. A MLCer wakes up. The LBS awakens from their fog. Awaken capturing the opening up to a new awareness and realization.

Considering mid life transition. One looks back up in their life’s work. Their accomplishments, their accolades, their failures, their things left undone. For a person with buried trauma, such digging unearths some nasty demons. For the rest of us, we transition from a work/family life to more a retirement life.

My awakening into this new world was an interesting journey. And awaken adds the implied acceptance of one’s new world - as in not running from it, more walking into it. I am at peace with who I am. At peace with having no kids in the home. Even being single with no wife, I am comfortable and at peace with. When J hit her crisis/transition, I pretty much entered mine as well. Similar age and all.

I sleep soundly. I hold myself accountable. I keep my word. I do not flip flop on actions or behaviours or morals. I consider myself well healed, at peace, live in equanimity, and look forward to my retirement life. Such is my life’s feedback.

J’s outward behaviour suggests a much different inner calm, well a lack of calm in my view. Lashing out, changing her mind, begging for the kids to call her, and when they do, snubbing them. And so on. In my opinion she is far from the peaceful calm life that a 51 year old woman should be. All appearances of one still fighting and transitioning life’s inevitable changes and stages.

Another example, my Mom has recently really awoken to her golden years. Accepted if you will. The illness of her husband, my Dad, inspired many talks and discussions. And undoubted many thoughts and feelings within her.

In fact, I just got back from the bank with my Mom where we stored some more needed documentation upon the time of her death. And last night she asked me about some heirloom type stuff and if I’d want it and distribution accordingly. One interesting piece: Some money from 1933. Printed even before her time. Lol. It felt so neat. A different type of “paper” back then. And much smaller margins on the bills; almost printed right to the edge of the paper.

Mom is enjoying her golden years and accepting and readying for what is hopefully a ways off. Awakened vs denial about it if you will. Denial, angry, or depressed for that matter; awakened is being through those stages.

Originally Posted by Ginger1
Do you believe someone can “awaken” and still not want to return to the marriage and choose to stay with whom they are with ?

Oh yes. I’ve written about many possible awakenings and that is certainly one of them.

Any life transitions changes the one transiting. Depending upon one’s past - all those events and things done - they become more better or more bitter. I can certainly think of several examples of folks in their golden years living grumpy lives, not reminiscent of the joyful memories of my grandma’s golden years.

A crisis level transition is difficult to exit. And such crisis brings about larger changes, since these folks are grappling and finding peace with event from long ago childhood issues. That is likely going to have some major shifts.

If I were to look forward and consider/predict for J. She will fight her children, weddings and such taking their toll upon her, wearing her down, and eventually - by a narrow margin - she will apologize and beg for forgiveness and to be part of their lives. Her position thus far has been the kids will want to be part of her life. My reasoning is she had wonderful loving relationships with her children, and she talks to them, even begging them to see her. That is unlike her Mom who just cut her off.

J is getting close methinks. She needs a self induced non-manipulated from me or anyone else rock bottom event. Something to propel her to awaken from her descent.

I believe she will remain with OM.

Probably not the admission you’d expect from me. I am standing, for me. Not J. Not my dead and defunct marriage. For me.

J will calm and find peace with herself and live with OM. The children will find peace with that as well. They just need more time. And I will gently guide them; they just aren’t ready to hear that nor follow it yet.

There is a chance that she awakens and wishes to leave OM. I do place that less likely than her remaining with him.

There is also chance OM throws her out. Or he passes. Or any number of other things. My goodness that would be such a mess for her. What would she do if he became infirm for example? Such is my thought work and reasoned approach.

Anyhow, her path is in her control. In her power. It’s up to her to wield it.

D


Now: Me54 XW51 S25 S23 S21 D20

Oct 8/17-BD, Moves in w/OM, Leaves Kids
Me49 W46 S20 S19 S16 D15
M26 T29
Dec 9/17-Legal Separation
Oct 3/18-W Files
Apr 6/19-Divorced

Love the Sinner, Forgive the Sin.
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Ginger,

awakening starts with the horrible realization what the MLCer has done. A lot of the times they will apologize to the LBS, but not until several years have passed since BD. I have had that happen to me and I was gobsmacked. My exW came right out and apologized to me in full and it looked and felt very sincere.

One major scary thing about MLC are the eyes, the dead and lifeless eyes that you notice on the person afflicted. No life, no joy in the eyes, face might be smiling, but the yes do not lie. The MLCer is very busy trying to hide the internal turmoil, put on a happy face and while the LBS and his/her life is in shambles, they give out the appearance that they have never been happier, like they are free from the shackles of the defunct marriage. But that facade begins to crumble slowly and chip after chip the truth is revealed. And the truth is a truly broken person that has lost the strength to keep up the charade and true devastation of depression is revealed. Mind you, some are soo good at keeping appearances that they might deceive the world and themselves till death, but again, the eyes don't lie. Pay attention to the eyes. Some call these eyes shark eyes.

As DnJ has witnessed himself, glipses of the old person start appearing and again it baffles the LBS. More often than not these glimpses are fleeting and the MLCer retreats back into his/her shell. Often the MLCer will start reconnecting to the people from their past. It is highly unlikely that they would be starting to reconnect sooner than 5 years post BD. They start reconnecting in the reverse order that they broke connections, so the connection with LBS that was severed first, is the last to be reconnected. More often than not the LBS that has endured years of humiliations is not prepared to give the MLCer another chance and has likely moved on.

4 members like this: bttrfly, job, Taz, DnJ
DnJ #2934926 06/14/22 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by DnJ
In my opinion she is far from the peaceful calm life that a 51 year old woman should be.
My exw is 3 years younger but I agree life should start to become peaceful at this age.
Originally Posted by DnJ
All appearances of one still fighting and transitioning life’s inevitable changes and stages.
Yep. My exw just has a girls get away with women 20 years younger.
Originally Posted by DnJ
If I were to look forward and consider/predict for J. She will fight her children, weddings and such taking their toll upon her, wearing her down, and eventually - by a narrow margin - she will apologize and beg for forgiveness and to be part of their lives.
I would love to see that for your children.
Originally Posted by DnJ
Her position thus far has been the kids will want to be part of her life.
What do you think is holding them back?
Originally Posted by DnJ
My reasoning is she had wonderful loving relationships with her children, and she talks to them, even begging them to see her.
That must be difficult for her.
Originally Posted by DnJ
J is getting close methinks. She needs a self induced non-manipulated from me or anyone else rock bottom event. Something to propel her to awaken from her descent.
I agree.
Originally Posted by DnJ
I believe she will remain with OM.
Path of least resistance.
Originally Posted by DnJ
Probably not the admission you’d expect from me. I am standing, for me. Not J. Not my dead and defunct marriage. For me.
No I see you as being a realist.
Originally Posted by DnJ
J will calm and find peace with herself and live with OM.
Path of least resistance.
Originally Posted by DnJ
The children will find peace with that as well. They just need more time. And I will gently guide them; they just aren’t ready to hear that nor follow it yet.
It's been almost 5 years. When do you think they will be ready?
Originally Posted by DnJ
There is a chance that she awakens and wishes to leave OM. I do place that less likely than her remaining with him.
Coming back with her tail between her legs would be difficult to do.
Originally Posted by DnJ
There is also chance OM throws her out. Or he passes. Or any number of other things. My goodness that would be such a mess for her. What would she do if he became infirm for example? Such is my thought work and reasoned approach.
Would she have a place to land at DNJs house?
Originally Posted by DnJ
Anyhow, her path is in her control. In her power. It’s up to her to wield it.
Agree 100%


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Vapo #2934927 06/14/22 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Vapo
A lot of the times they will apologize to the LBS, but not until several years have passed since BD. I have had that happen to me and I was gobsmacked. My exW came right out and apologized to me in full and it looked and felt very sincere.
I would probably pass out and die if I ever got an apology.


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�Happiness equals reality minus expectations�- Magliozzi
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LH19 #2934928 06/14/22 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Vapo
A lot of the times they will apologize to the LBS, but not until several years have passed since BD. I have had that happen to me and I was gobsmacked. My exW came right out and apologized to me in full and it looked and felt very sincere.
I would probably pass out and die if I ever got an apology.

I got the apology and it very nearly blew my socks off. I was shocked for a week after. That was followed by a couple of hours of intense anger. But it subsided quickly and now I am at peace. Now we coparent like bosses and are amicable towards one another.

Last edited by Vapo; 06/14/22 01:26 PM.
Vapo #2934930 06/14/22 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Vapo
I got the apology and it very nearly blew my socks off. I was shocked for a week after. That was followed by a couple of hours of intense anger.
So you got an apology but it was still all your fault.


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LH19 #2934932 06/14/22 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Vapo
I got the apology and it very nearly blew my socks off. I was shocked for a week after. That was followed by a couple of hours of intense anger.
So you got an apology but it was still all your fault.


Just to clarify, the anger was mine. I was fuming with anger.

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