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toughtimes180,
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
I don't know anything about parenting plans, I thought a 10-pager was where it is at. A two-pager sounds nicer than 10. But she hasn't responded, so let's see. I like the idea of late clauses. How does that work?
I don't know about late clauses, but I recommend making a precise list for any Holidays you want to alternate outside of your regular week transitions. Literally list them in rows (Christmas, Easter, Thanksgiving, Australia Day...whatever is important to you) and make a column for odd years and even years. Include Mother's Day for W and Father's Day for you. Include alternating the kids' birthdays, and maybe school breaks. Table format is easiest. It might save you some confusion, disagreements, and grief in the future. My ExW and I are still feeling things out in that area.

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
STBXW sent me an anniversary card saving she loves me and thanks me for the wonderful family we created. It was actually touching. It was even a greeting card specifically for Exs.
Maybe it's just where I am in the process, but it seems more nauseating and emotionally manipulative to me than touching. Why would you thank someone for creating a wonderful family...which you're actively working to break apart? Don't read anything into it or let it get your hopes up.

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
I did say thanks and walked away, but not sure if I respond later, if at all.
I vote no response. Toss it in the trash bin. Perhaps she'll see it lying there and wonder.

Last edited by BL42; 05/13/22 02:07 AM.

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Originally Posted by tt180
I like the idea of late clauses. How does that work?
In my agreement, the person getting the kids always does the driving, and if a parent is more than 30 minutes later for pickup, they lose that period of possession. You don't *have* to enforce the consequence, but it's an immediate recourse available to you if they keep making you wait. I feel bad for other parents who complain about waiting 45 minutes at pickup.

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Originally Posted by BL42
I vote no response. Toss it in the trash bin. Perhaps she'll see it lying there and wonder.
I did exactly that. It's in the outside paper recycle bin with the lid accidentally open.


Me: 47 w/ S10, D12, D3
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Originally Posted by BL42
Maybe it's just where I am in the process, but it seems more nauseating and emotionally manipulative to me than touching. Why would you thank someone for creating a wonderful family...which you're actively working to break apart?
It's possible it's a manipulation attempt. It's also possible she feels gratitude towards the father of her children for helping to create and raise them, and getting an "XH" card was an attempt to avoid any misinterpretation.

Originally Posted by tt180
It's in the outside paper recycle bin with the lid accidentally open.
I wager that feels good. It likely comes across as more emo than your earlier polite "Thanks" and walking away. Holidays are tough. I get finding it touching, then wanting to get rid of it!

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Originally Posted by Traveler
Originally Posted by BL42
Maybe it's just where I am in the process, but it seems more nauseating and emotionally manipulative to me than touching. Why would you thank someone for creating a wonderful family...which you're actively working to break apart?
It's possible it's a manipulation attempt. It's also possible she feels gratitude towards the father of her children for helping to create and raise them, and getting an "XH" card was an attempt to avoid any misinterpretation.
I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and say it's not conscious. But based on her personality, it could be a way of pacifying after realizing I'm standing up. She will vacillate from rage (potentially narcissistic in nature), to calming and friendly. Which I guess is manipulation, conscious or not doesn't make a difference.


Me: 47 w/ S10, D12, D3
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Originally Posted by toughtimes180
Originally Posted by Traveler
Originally Posted by BL42
Maybe it's just where I am in the process, but it seems more nauseating and emotionally manipulative to me than touching. Why would you thank someone for creating a wonderful family...which you're actively working to break apart?
It's possible it's a manipulation attempt. It's also possible she feels gratitude towards the father of her children for helping to create and raise them, and getting an "XH" card was an attempt to avoid any misinterpretation.
I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and say it's not conscious. But based on her personality, it could be a way of pacifying after realizing I'm standing up. She will vacillate from rage (potentially narcissistic in nature), to calming and friendly. Which I guess is manipulation, conscious or not doesn't make a difference.

Conscious or not, this is exactly why, with a WS in particular, you cannot focus on them. WSs are the flakiest of all creatures on God's green earth. I tell this story all the time. I had a discussion with my WW in the height of her waywardness. All of the behavior she was exhibiting with her EA with OM, then getting on dating sights, and sending messages to guys that were 20 years younger than her, etc. And I said, is that really what you want? I will never forget her response. "I have no idea what I want or what I am doing!" It was a rare moment of honesty from a WW. They do not know what they are doing. They are running on pure emotion. Their feelings change from moment to moment, and their actions and behavior follow.

So yes it is manipulation because at any given moment she feels either rage or sweetness will get her what she wants. There is no consistency, which is why the LBS has to be a rock. You have to be rock solid in your consistency. The moment you capitulate to one of those behaviors then you just taught her that all she has to do is get angry, get sweet, cry, etc to get her way.


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Originally Posted by toughtimes180
I did exactly that. It's in the outside paper recycle bin with the lid accidentally open.
Sounds intentional. Manipulative. You want her to see it and get a reaction.

You have a lot of personal growth to focus on.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by tt180
I like the idea of late clauses. How does that work?
Originally Posted by Traveler
In my agreement, the person getting the kids always does the driving, and if a parent is more than 30 minutes later for pickup, they lose that period of possession. You don't *have* to enforce the consequence, but it's an immediate recourse available to you if they keep making you wait. I feel bad for other parents who complain about waiting 45 minutes at pickup.
Sounds like a good agreement. Precise is better than vague. 30 minutes is a good precise number.

The divorce paperwork should be a solid landing point when disagreements occur. Exceptions can be negotiated, as long as communication is happening.

My agreement was not in the divorce paperwork, but this clause "any and all parenting time schedules may be altered from time to time by our mutual agreement"


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Originally Posted by toughtimes180
Originally Posted by BL42
I vote no response. Toss it in the trash bin. Perhaps she'll see it lying there and wonder.
I did exactly that. It's in the outside paper recycle bin with the lid accidentally open.
I agree with R2C. This is passive-aggressive, manipulative behavior. Why did you do this? What were you hoping to gain?

And BL-- due respect, but you should know better than to recommend this kind of action to a newbie. Throw it out if you don't want it-- fine. Engineering so that she sees it lying in the garbage-- this is not DBing.

Originally Posted by toughtimes180
Originally Posted by Traveler
Originally Posted by BL42
Maybe it's just where I am in the process, but it seems more nauseating and emotionally manipulative to me than touching. Why would you thank someone for creating a wonderful family...which you're actively working to break apart?
It's possible it's a manipulation attempt. It's also possible she feels gratitude towards the father of her children for helping to create and raise them, and getting an "XH" card was an attempt to avoid any misinterpretation.
I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and say it's not conscious. But based on her personality, it could be a way of pacifying after realizing I'm standing up. She will vacillate from rage (potentially narcissistic in nature), to calming and friendly. Which I guess is manipulation, conscious or not doesn't make a difference.
All y'all are spending a lot of time parsing out her behavior. Why she sent it. If she's being manipulative. Conscious or unconscious. Narcissism. Pacification. (I give Traveler the benefit of the doubt on this one that he's just trying to raise some alternate explanations.) But... jeez. Stop. Mindreading is a fool's game. All that energy being poured into something you cannot control-- your wife.

TT180-- focus on YOU. Breathe. GAL. What's best for you? Focus on that. Even if is is just something small you are doing for yourself today that can bring you joy. What helped me in my sitch when things got bad was to just spend time with my kids, totally focus on them and being 100% present, or going out to dinner with a girlfriend and having fun, or reading a totally indulgent beach read novel or watching a super engrossing movie. Yoga. Figure out how to give yourself a break from all this just for a bit.


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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by toughtimes180
I did exactly that. It's in the outside paper recycle bin with the lid accidentally open.
Sounds intentional. Manipulative. You want her to see it and get a reaction.

You have a lot of personal growth to focus on.
You are right. As much as I know this is the right path for me, I'm upset that it feels like on her terms, a feeling I've had over the course of our relationship. I closed the bin lid.

Ive just read the solo partner. What a good read. Lowering expectations will help me to understand what I can do for 180. The only thing I didn't like about the book was there wasn't specific advice for the distancer. I took it as, manage anger and expectations, and you'll find the distancer tendencies will diminish.

Today is hard, I'm getting the cold shoulder. Complaints about things I didn't do properly while looking after the kids last night.

This is something I can't get my head around. Some of the complaints are valid, some are not relaistic, others I would never think of, and could never consider. I validate, but always have struggled with what is reasonable and what is not. My approach is to improve on what I'm capable of, validate all her concerns, and not be bothered by the rest.

In 10+ years of M, I tried to do it all, but obviously that was in vain and with resentment.

The communicate less approach is nice, but it's triggering her anxiety. I have to make sure to include validation in my responses as well.


Me: 47 w/ S10, D12, D3
Current T: 12; M: 11 years; BD1: 11-11-18; BD2: 22-04-22; STBXW: 41
Previous M: 4 years; Big D: 2004; XW: 48
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