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Originally Posted by kml
Just to tell you an inspiring story I know: a friend of my best friend has a non-verbal autistic son. He used to do a lot of self-harming. Then, in his early teens, his doctor put him on sulphoraphane (broccoli extract, in this case specifically from a company called Thorne). His self-harming stopped. A couple of years later he started learning to communicate with an assistive device. Turns out he has an amazing vocabulary for someone who could never speak! Then Covid made it necessary for his father to be more involved in his schooling, as it was remote. He blossomed, started writing amazing poetry, and composing symphonies in his head. Now he’s working with a professional musician friend of his fathers to translate what he hears in his head into symphonies. I can’t wait for the first one to be performed!

Amazing story. Thanks for sharing it. If they publish any videos then please private msg them to me. Thanks for the tip about broccoli extract. Will check it out.

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Originally Posted by BL42
PeterB,
Originally Posted by PeterB
I am analytical on everything, a realist and problem-solving oriented (the last one has led to R conflicts that made no sense to me).
It seems like a disproportionate number of male LBSs here are.

No hope for us it seems smile

Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by PeterB
His intervention needs are almost completely handled by me (there is little appreciation of that from my WW because she is in denial about lot of his limitations and potential prognosis).
Did this cause you to feel resentful?

No resentment. But quite a bit of frustration at her not being able to carry out some targeted activities or not being able to do proper observations or misreading his progress or denial of various issues. On hindsight I should not have got frustrated / angry. In the very beginning when I got massive negative feedback and denial from my larger family about his condition, I decided that I will have to be strong and go at it alone. I also didn't expect anyone to be able to do therapy at my level or develop the same level of understanding of issues around autism. In the first month from the night I suspected something is wrong, I probably slept avg 3 hours per night, reading all I could. During the day I would call providers and manage the special-needs red-tape (told my manager I wont be working) and made systematic notes on where he is at and what he needs. It became an obsession and doubts started creeping in that I am failing him and I need to do more (20 months later an IC told me to self-appreciate my own efforts regardless of where he is at and that method was a revelation to me). It would be foolish of me to expect others to do this or build resentment if they don't.

Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by PeterB
She is a rockstar at her work and she is compensated accordingly. Deservedly, gets validated again and again. I was super proud of that.
Did you communicate your pride effectively? Did she feel respected and valued in regards to her career & contributions?

Did I communicate my pride properly - probably no. I am a person who is uncomfortable with receiving too much praise so on the flip side I would not tell her that I am singing about her work successes and great responsibilities to my colleagues and friends. But I did enough in that she knows well how happy I am for her. I would also regularly talk to her about her work and try to help and advice wherever possible. She has never expressed dissatisfaction about not feeling valued in terms of her career or not being supported.

Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by PeterB
In the last year she did mention several times to me that now she earns as much as me and even mentioned that to my father (which he found rather odd).
Do you think she may have felt the need to justify her self worth and financial contributions?

I don't know. She might have but it would not / should not be because of me. She knows that I keep my parents informed about her successes and even her compensation and she also knows that they were proud of her career. She always had a goal that one day she will do really well and she will earn a lot of money. She is on a road towards that goal so I wonder if she validates herself by saying it. Anyway, none of this bothered me then or now.

Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by PeterB
Taking the example of my family, I had always considered my earned money to be hers as well, but the reverse was not remotely true. She has been clear that her earned income is her own money only. A source of conflict was she that she would frequently complain about spending too much for the household (the specifics of these complaints are too ugly for me to retain in my head).
Did your W have freedom to handle money or did she feel under a microscope & controlled financially?

She had the freedom from my pov. I never asked her about her personal expenses. Neither of us have expensive taste. Would she love an expensive designer bag? - of course. But she does not crave such a bag or an expensive car etc. I used to be tight on spending so that may have indirectly caused hesitation within her - she never expressed it to me but during BD she did say she hesitated to spend money.

Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by PeterB
At some point last year, this type of complaint gave me so much anxiety that I created a spreadsheet which showed that I spend 2.5 times as much as her per month on the household (without counting my paycheck expenses like family health insurance and other family benefits). She went quiet when confronted with numbers, but she repeated the same complaint after a few days as if the spreadsheet never happened.
How do you think showing her that spreadsheet made her feel?

Didn't show her the spreadsheet. I had to tabulate to give me a sense of real numbers because I started coming down with anxiety every time she complained about spending too much money and in the process turning a good experiences into bad. Then I told her the numbers. It was a damp squib. She went quiet, didn't ask me for any details and moved the conversation to something else.

Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by PeterB
Btw, my income is twice as much as her because I have a significant variable component in my compensation. She registers that.
Did you point out to her your income is higher and your contributions are higher? If so, how do you think that made her feel? And, do you think that may have been a factor in her telling you and your dad she now earns as much as you?

Never brought up my compensation with her under any circumstances in the past or in the present. She has been the one who brings it up, and even then it never led to negative situations. I am a totally non-competitive person btw - I do my best but never compete. My IC had asked me to change that urgently and recognize the reality of competition in day-to-day life.

Originally Posted by BL42
PeterB - Is it possible she may have felt not good enough or appreciated enough on the career/earning/financial contributions as you did on the caring for your special needs child?

She has not pitted the value of her financial contributions to my time spent my son. But yes, she did feel neglected overall because of time spent on my son and my depression affected her too.

Originally Posted by BL42
Notice I'm asking "How did that make her feel?" a lot. Us analytical people can tend to think of everything logically like a math equation but can struggle empathizing feelings and providing emotional support. Your W wants to feel loved and respected and appreciated. Not saying that's the full story here, but based on the latest posts an area for you to consider working on moving forward.

These are good points. Will have to speak to an IC regarding this.

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Quick update: No huge developments. She keeps trying to do things at the opposite ends of the scale. She gets nice, initiates questions on what I am up to and other discussions. Otoh she tries to fight with me and comes at me again and again even though I try removing myself from the scene. As mentioned earlier, I have boundaries on post-divorce talk, any talk involving parents/friends and any abusive statements.

Over the last few weeks she has changed very little of her own problems - she obviously knew I was very busy last evening taking care of various things regarding my son and the house and her (she was unwell). I forgot to do one thing and she raised her voice at me. When I told her that I was so busy that I did not remember to do that, she promptly answered - "no you were not".

I am getting the feeling that she is becoming a natural at trying to keep me alive as a plan B while contemplating her escape, which she seems to be rather hesitant about. She has dropped ILYBINILWY a few times yet continues to have sex.

This is a great quote I found on the internet - "...in 9.99 times out of ten, ILYBINILWY is a code phrase for I'm having an affair and blaming it on you, it's your fault I no longer love you. Look at what you've done, you've driven me away, I'll show you." In fact, she has said - "look what you have done, you've driven me away, you really did" multiple times. Very predictable it seems.

My GAL is going fine. A few days ago she launched at me saying she can't stand it that other girls will get to have this 'better you' and said with suspicion in her voice - "you are not really trying to get me back, are you?". She also keeps lamenting "I am just so bitter at you that I can't let go".

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Peter,

Very predictable indeed. I just want to caution you on a couple things. You are most likely not plan B. This is an assumption that gets thrown around here a lot that IMO is not correct. You are a plan but it’s more like F or G. ILYBINILWY means she loves you like she would live a helpless child. In essence she sees you as a low value man because she doesn’t trust you. This can change but not likely without time and space and life experiences.

As for still having sex, my exw was like that, she’s the answer to the trivia question of “who’s the first woman you slept with after you were divorced?” It just means in her eyes you are an attractive dude and she’s more broken then you think.

BTW I think you are doing great DBing. The problem is the ice berg has been spotted too late and avoiding the iceberg is highly unlikely because there’s not enough time to alter the ships trajectory.

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Originally Posted by PeterB
Quick update: No huge developments. She keeps trying to do things at the opposite ends of the scale. She gets nice, initiates questions on what I am up to and other discussions. Otoh she tries to fight with me and comes at me again and again even though I try removing myself from the scene. As mentioned earlier, I have boundaries on post-divorce talk, any talk involving parents/friends and any abusive statements.

Over the last few weeks she has changed very little of her own problems - she obviously knew I was very busy last evening taking care of various things regarding my son and the house and her (she was unwell). I forgot to do one thing and she raised her voice at me. When I told her that I was so busy that I did not remember to do that, she promptly answered - "no you were not".

I am getting the feeling that she is becoming a natural at trying to keep me alive as a plan B while contemplating her escape, which she seems to be rather hesitant about. She has dropped ILYBINILWY a few times yet continues to have sex.

This is a great quote I found on the internet - "...in 9.99 times out of ten, ILYBINILWY is a code phrase for I'm having an affair and blaming it on you, it's your fault I no longer love you. Look at what you've done, you've driven me away, I'll show you." In fact, she has said - "look what you have done, you've driven me away, you really did" multiple times. Very predictable it seems.

My GAL is going fine. A few days ago she launched at me saying she can't stand it that other girls will get to have this 'better you' and said with suspicion in her voice - "you are not really trying to get me back, are you?". She also keeps lamenting "I am just so bitter at you that I can't let go".

PeterB, I can't really argue with the quote you found. That phrase is one most LBSs hear. And the WAS KNOWS that it is hurtful. They've likely been contemplating saying if for a very long time before they finally verbalize it. It is really a phrase they think will simultaneously let us down easy, but at the same time is going to be hurtful enough that we cannot come back from it. And it is almost like they have attended a "how to walk away from your spouse" class. It is amazing how ubiquitous that phrase really is in these situations on BD. And yes in the vast majority of cases, whether this phrase is uttered or not, there is AP. Even if it is just a fantasy person in the WAS's mind. We once had a poster here whose W was convinced that her and some country singer that didn't even know she existed were destined to be together! The brain fog that a WAS can be buried in is amazing sometimes.

As far as your W speaking to you like she did, why not, rather than try to find an excuse, just tell her "I refuse to be spoken to in that manner" and then walking away. Remember, commanding respect is really what you need to be striving for here. We see a lot of verbally abusive WASs here, and allowing it is never a recipe for eventual R. You have to nip it in bud. Don't yell, or say it in an angry way. Just state the phrase above and walk away.


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Thanks LH19 & SteveLW. So an important development.

She has been fishing around using words to figure out if I know about her A. She has been doing it for a month and I did not bite. But she is no fool. She also knows only too well that I am analytical, and can piece things together so that is another reason she thinks I know (she has let slip several things and she realizes that). And she is right of course.

So, a few days ago she started a conversation and then said something 'good' about a significant early phase of our R. In reality she was putting me down hard in a subtle way to achieve two goals. 1st was that she was revising that phase to bolster the narrative that she is a better fit with her AP. 2nd was to get a reaction from me which would confirm her suspicions that I know about her A. Recall that I have a boundary that I refuse to hear things that I recognize are putting me down and things that are of no benefit to me. What she said fit both criteria, so I told her to excuse me from that discussion and that she was better off discussing with her support system.

And the above reaction was all she needed. She blew up and started screaming. I tried to remove myself physically, but she chased me down continuously (like she would do in the past during our R). At one point she shouted - "I am very smart, and I know what you know". Then she followed it up by cursing me for making her unhappy and "letting me go". And she shouted that I am trying to run away from blame and now blaming her for the D. She was unleashing self-righteous anger at me.

I hadn't spoken a word after she blew up. It was easy for me to figure out that she had no remorse for her A. Otoh she was more outraged that I found out and that now I might blame her. The reality in front of her across the last 4 months is that I have accepted whole heartedly my share of the responsibility for her unhappiness (I will never accept any responsibility whatsoever for her A). But she denied my acceptance & apologies and went off on a long tirade.

So, what has happened is that "she knows I know". Things have been back to our strange normal since (including sex) and she has been blowing mostly positive. She is confused - I think she is trying to understand if we can rebuild MR and at the same time wants to make her post-D life work with her AP. It is quite convenient for her to do some mechanical things for me and keep me in the game. She does not know that I am preparing my mind for D. She does not know that I have detached myself from her A and not letting it affect me - although I will use this ultimate act of disrespect to guide my future actions.

The point that begs action at this time is that if she truly knows that I know about her A then I think it is time to talk to her about it. Otherwise, she might take me for granted and her disrespect will grow. In her mind she would be like, is this guy so desperate that he tries to sweep things under the rug? What do the veterans feel about this? Is my thinking correct? If yes, how should I broach the topic with her? Should I be verbose and explain to her I'd like her to confess? Any rules to follow while discussing such a precarious topic.

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Sorry things seemed to have turned for the worse for you. When people get into affairs, it's a very stark mixed bag of feelings. For one, getting loads of positive attention from a member of the opposite sex is intoxicating, it's really like a drug. Then, there's the accompanying feeling of guilt knowing that they are doing something wrong.

Rather than get angry at themselves, they think "why am I feeling guilty? It's because of HIM, HE'S making me feel guilty"

Then, you become the bad guy, and they look to reinforce their argument that "you are making them do this" by searching for any negative things that you do, re-writing your history so it was always bad, etc. etc. etc.

It's a very predictable and repeatable pattern unfortunately, and the things your wife is saying and how she is acting are no different.

She feels guilty about her A is yet another reason she resents you, so anything you do to guilt her, shame her, or make her responsible for your sadness is going to increase her guilt and therefore increase her resentment.

Your best bet is to go the opposite direction and give her more space than she wants. The DB prescription is (1) 180: whatever she assumes she knows about you, demonstrate that it's not true. If you used to get angry and honk in traffic, don't do that even in the worst scenario, etc. (2) Get a Life: go out and do things with other people and enjoy your life, establish new relationships, (3) Act as If: Act as if everything is 100% awesome in your life.

There is NOTHING you can do about her affair partner or what she's going to do next. You can only control what you're going to do next.

People often fear that if they go in the other direction, are they telling their partner they don't care, or giving their tacit approval for the affair to continue, or how will they demonstrate that they're different if the other person doesn't see them, etc. etc.

The answer to all of that is "NO" -- the answer is to give space, not pursue, and all it means is that you're giving space. There's nothing else to read into it.

Often we get caught up on what we should and shouldn't be doing, but the important thing is not the what, but the how, or what your demeanor is like.

You need to "open the cage door" as it were, and what that means is that you need to completely let her off the hook in terms of influencing your feelings.

If she knows that you are "okay" no matter what she does, then she is free to deal with her own feelings and work things out for herself.

If she's constantly aware that her actions and her decisions are making you sad/angsty/mad/etc. then she will wear that feeling like a yoke of oppression and her main focus will be getting away from it.

Talking about the affair is a bad idea. The thing is you don't *have* to do any of that. In fact you shouldn't. That's the key.

Prepare yourself for the fact that you're unlikely to ever get any remorse or any type of apology.

You are right that it [censored], and I'm glad you're angry about it, that's part of processing all of this. Allow yourself to feel all of it and don't worry about it for a minute.

Realistically someone having an affair like this is usually a "last straw" versus a spur of the moment decision. In most relationships needs don't get met, resentments build up, and just pile up over time. When you're living in the same space there's a lot of motivation to compromise and keep the peace, but usually under the surface there's stuff brewing that isn't getting discussed, usually because both people convince themselves that it's just a temporary issue and will go away on its own.

I read somewhere that for people in a relationship to characterize it as "happy", positive interactions need to outweigh negative ones by a ratio of 7:1. For every one time you come away from an exchange annoyed, you have to come away from seven others feeling good. That's a pretty difficult thing to achieve for most people. If you're shy of that, the resentment snowball is growing.

An affair is escapism for sure, and its usually the result of a chance opportunity, or a thousand micro-escalations that happened without any forethought. What it's really a symptom of, however, is conflict avoidance.

For a relationship to be successful both people need to be willing to blow it up on occasion, argue it out and be prepared to walk if a compromise can't be reached. That takes a lot of strength and self-confidence. For more often people stuff it down and pave over it and eventually you're sitting on a volcano that's ready to blow.

Point is, regardless of the affair one or both of you weren't happy. Usually its just a matter of timing in terms of who pulls the rip cord first.

That's why it's now important to separate the desire for the person, from the desire for resumption of control, stability, and positive validation. Your brain is telling you that getting W back will restore these things, but it won't.

So ask yourself, what do you want and why do you want it?

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Originally Posted by Peter
In her mind she would be like, is this guy so desperate that he tries to sweep things under the rug?
Would "sweeping it under the rug" be a fair assessment?

Originally Posted by "Ready2Change, 1 month ago"
Do not share with her WHAT you know.
Do not share with her HOW you know.
You can and should (at the right time) share that you DO KNOW.

"We both know that is a lie. If you are willing to speak the truth, I will listen."
Originally Posted by "Traveller, 1 month ago."
If you choose sex, read up on being safe with casual sex partners who are simultaneously sleeping with others. Common precautions include condoms and regular STI screenings. As they say, if you aren't ready to talk about safe sex, you're not ready to have it!

Now you know you figured it out because she's been dropping hints. Now she knows your response was to ignore it, continue to patch things up, and continue having sex. The curtain has been pulled back. Are you proud of your choices? Were they made out of desperation or something else?

Originally Posted by Peter
The point that begs action at this time is that if she truly knows that I know about her A then I think it is time to talk to her about it.
I've never been cheated on. I'm sorry you have. I agree the facade is gone. DB frowns on Talky and prefers Actions. What would you hope to get from a Talky? Have you considered setting any boundaries--it sounds like you want the sex to continue?! If so, reconsider setting a boundary of wearing a condom and/or requiring her to get STI tested before sex. Each time you sleep with a casual sex partner without protection you increase your chances of catching something. We hear it too often here.

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Originally Posted by PeterB
If yes, how should I broach the topic with her? Should I be verbose and explain to her I'd like her to confess? Any rules to follow while discussing such a precarious topic.
Actions speak loader than words. I would not talk to her about it. But if you must, get yourself in the right frame of mind.


RobX had the right mind set:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2079636#Post2079636


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
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I agree with R2C. Actions are better than words. But most LBSs give in to their impulses. If you must then follow R2C's advice.


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