Peter to follow on what BL states, nothing looks weaker than to state a boundary, and then not enforce it when crossed. Telling your WAW that you will divorce her if she has a PA, and then not following through will not be a good way of moving forward.
If a PA is a boundary you still say nothing. If you find out it is a PA then you go file for D. I find that most LBS say things like this to their WAS in an effort to manipulate their WAS to do or not do something. Really all it will do is make her hide it even more until she is ready to have you D her.
As BL said before, action not words. Boundaries are for you to take action once crossed, not to try to alter someone else's behavior.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
She has asked irritatedly - "why didn't you make these changes last year?".
Option B.
Even more important, it is about your attitude when you say it. A glint in your eye, your tone, the inflections, your body language.
You have been enlightened. You were in a carppy mariage and are extremely excited to be free at last. You can do whatever you want whenever you want. You FINALLY GET IT. You are argeeing with her.
BTW, she is not asking a question. It is a statement.
The good thing is she is noticing your changes. Keep them up for you, not her. What you are doing is working.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Few disconnected thoughts from me in response (sorry, don't feel like quoting right now, so this may be hard to follow):
- I do love my H. FWIW he says he never stopped loving me either. Loving him as a person is separate from me still being really quite angry over his behavior. I'm not quite at forgiveness yet.
- He was not himself during the A. He was a weak and sad shell of a man. I think the lying and cheating was actually really hard on him to reconcile his behaviors with his own self-image. Once it ended (I kept telling him-- if you don't want to be a liar, it's easy-- DON'T LIE) and he was able to live his life more in keeping with his own values, he really changed back into the H I knew and loved.
- With time and space he's also stopped defining how he felt about the AP as love but he really did go all-in during the A, told me it was True Love, etc. I think he needed to convince himself it was True Love in order to justify his actions like it was all beyond his control.
- If you've decided that if her affair has gone physical that you'll divorce her, as others have said-- prepare yourself for the high likelihood that it already has. (Also, what do you mean by physical? Would a kiss count or just going all the way?) Saying you will D if you find out it is a PA vs actually doing it is pretty different, so I would recommend preparing yourself for this path. Talk to an L. Understand your rights. How would you want to manage custody of your child? I talked to several attorneys and actually did all the worksheets so that I could see what the financials implications would look like and had a proposal for custody split. This was really necessary for me to get rid of the fear of D and be prepared. I highly recommend this.
- In terms of S, I agree if you don't want to leave the house or the MBR, don't. Depending on home ownership or who is on the lease, you may not be able to force her to leave either-- so be prepared for that. I asked my H to leave and he refused which was now a blessing in disguise but at the time I was really angry and frustrated and felt powerless-- but at the same time it was more important to me to stay in the house with the kids and let him be the one to take the step of walking out the door if that is what he chose to do. I made that choice with open eyes though and realize it isn't for everyone. If your boundary is I won't live with someone who is in an affair, then you might need to be prepared to move out yourself if she won't go.
- In/re validating WS BS, I would say that sometimes it can be helpful to listen and validate/empathize, but what you hear can be hard and frankly gross. I eventually set a boundary of not listening to anything about my H's feelings for AP. I just put up a stop sign hand and would walk away. You are not required to listen to or validate anything. Non-response or an Mmm-hmmm with a quick change of subject or escaping the convo is all okay too. I think the main issue is to NOT respond with defensiveness, arguing, or invalidating her.
- I don't necessarily agree that all changes are temporary. For many people, there are big life changes like parenthood that force big change into your life, some good, some maybe not so good. For me, when we had children I completely sank into the identity of motherhood and let a lot of other parts of my life wither. I stopped seeing myself as a sexual being (leading to the SSM) and every single decision I made was with the children at the middle. I stopped thinking of my H as a human being in our marriage and just as a dad and business partner. I stopped thinking of myself too and stopped doing things that i loved because I felt guilty. This whole situation forced me to look at this and realize that there is more to me than being a mom. I started reconnecting with friends, self-care practices, etc etc. I took a job last year as the CEO of an organization and am getting a lot of fulfillment from my work. I did this all for me, not for my H. Side benefit to him is that we no longer have an SSM and we both take time to do things for ourselves without any guilt (me guilting myself or me guilt tripping him). I think 180s are great ways to try out different ways of being and see what works for you. If you're just doing it to try to keep your S around, then I agree with LH-- it will go away. But, you might find your own benefits to how you feel from some of those 180s. For instance, maybe not getting annoyed at her for little things can be really freeing and personally rewarding to you, and something you'd like to keep regardless of your R with her. But if you're internally rolling your eyes and super annoyed and just acting like it doesn't bother you-- that's not a 180 you're likely to be able to keep up, I would guess.
My final piece of advice to you is that I'd really focus on the boundaries vs. attempted control distinction. I had a really hard time with this. Bring your boundaries here and posters can help you parse out what is a boundary for you vs what is a "boundary" that you're setting to really try to control her.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I'd really focus on the boundaries vs. attempted control distinction. I had a really hard time with this. Bring your boundaries here and posters can help you parse out what is a boundary for you vs what is a "boundary" that you're setting to really try to control her.
Peter, I hope you're getting this message. A common "LBS Script" mistake is to try to control your wife via threats, ultimatums, and manipulation and call them "boundaries". Try not to be one of the statistics. Learn the power of try boundaries. Post before you try to implement them.
You have the tools to maximize your chances of the best possible outcome!
Textbook WAS behaviour. They want THEIR decision to be YOUR fault. You working on yourself is inconvenient to their narrative.
Your Option A Response: “You’re right, I should have made these changes last year oh perfect one, but I’ve changed now, can we work it out and try again?” Her translation: He obviously still wants to be with me, so it must be fake changes. I’m clearly making a smart decision.
Your Option B Response: “Oh well, we don’t always get what we want in life. Anyway, can’t talk, I’m off to the gym and then I’m going out with friends to a party. Her translation: What????? He doesn’t give a sh*t and seems really happy. I can’t stand not having him begging and pleading like a puppy dog. Perhaps I’m making a big mistake??
This is how the brain of a WAS works. It makes zero sense, but what cha gonna do?
Get busy living!
Wearing this on my sleeve so I remember it every time she asks me. She did today again. I answered exactly as the first statement in option B. I was busy doing the dishwasher so could not say I was off to party . She asked the same question again 10 secs later and this time I did not answer, although I made it clear by body language that I was present in the discussion and not ignoring her.
My one confusion is that she seems to believe that I want to be with her, or I am changing only to save the MR (I am not sure she truly believes this). At the same time she has understood that I am in good spirits and doing well for myself so she probably realizes that I will be doing fine in the future.
PeterB I am starting to see your enlightenment through all of this coming to fruition! So many LBSs come here broken and scarred and just trying to hold on to their marriage, which was also broken, with a death grip! So kudos to you for starting to open your eyes to the reality of your situation.
@SteveLW, thanks for the encouragement. My practice of GAL/LRT/180 is still not perfect but trying to get better. Since WW has seen promise for the future due to OM, I know that saving the MR is an uphill quest. So I am trying to be at peace with the future, whatever that might be.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Take what BL said about covert contracts to heart. Most of us suffered from some level of Nice Guy Syndrome in our life and now is a moment to face that in your self and fix it to set yourself up for future relationship success. I highly recommend the book No More Mr. Nice Guy.
Getting this book. Can you inform if it is okay for WW to see this on my bedside, or should I keep it secret by getting ebook/audiobook?
Getting this book. Can you inform if it is okay for WW to see this on my bedside, or should I keep it secret by getting ebook/audiobook?
Absolutely not. You’re not getting the book to manipulate her, you’re getting it to improve your mindset. Why on earth would you let her see it? Even if it wasn’t deliberate but she happened to see it on the bed stand she’ll think “oh he’s left that there for me to see, he’s trying to prove he’s worthy, how weak is this guy, his changes are temporary.”
Get the audiobook. It’s for you and you alone, nothing to do with her.
I think validation is sometimes over-rated on this site. I’d replace validation (ie you are right) with empathy (that sounds tough).
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Validation is not an end all be all. But it is a great tool for getting to a place where you respond rather than react! And it is especially a great tool for right-fighters.
Great points. I am getting better at validation. Applying empathy seems to be a slightly more advanced method and probably needs good understanding on how to apply validation first - basically, being able to respond rather than react is a prerequisite for being able to show empathy using words at the right situation.
Imo it's one thing for people to say they will leave/divorce a cheater but you never truly know how you'll feel/react until the situation happens in real life. It's alright if you want to keep your family together and are prepared to forgive if she feels remorse and wants to reconcile, but if a PA truly is a boundary for you you have to be prepared to enforce it, and you're very likely already in a situation with a PA. Sorry to say that, because I know it hurts, but better to face reality than ignore it.
My situation is a bit unique in that she is in an EA right now, even though it was PA before BD. It was the PA that led her to BD in the first place - I am 100% sure; The promise of a new life is a powerful motivation for D. I decided to LRT/GAL/180 after that and I am still in that journey. But I am keen on setting boundaries. I know that it will become PA again if she travels to where OM lives. And in my current disposition that becomes a deal breaker. I am mentally preparing myself for that action even though saving the MR is the north star.
. She asked the same question again 10 secs later and this time I did not answer, although I made it clear by body language that I was present in the discussion and not ignoring her.