Need advice: wife of 10 years wants out

[PeterB]

I see a thread called "boundaries". Are you suggesting I read that?

Yes, definitely read that. Boundaries aren't to control her, rather they're to protect you. If she crosses one of your boundaries you take action to protect yourself. As an example, you may not find it acceptable for her to yell and swear at you (boundary). You can't stop her from yelling and swearing, but you can hang up the phone or walk out of the room if she does (enforcement of boundary).

Thanks. I read it and looks like it advises on boundaries for tactical issues (rather than strategic issues) like the one you mentioned. Is it appropriate to set a boundary when she starts accusing me of preposterous things, which I do not agree to? Let's assume that she is venting, and her feelings are real. In this, I am not sure if a boundary supersedes validation in certain situations.

Should I tell her that if she PAs then I will divorce her (she does not know that I know about OM)?

You don't have to tell her, you can just do it. Action over words. IF you do choose to tell her, than you should stick to it, or we will learn you won't enforce your boundaries.

I thought about this and I actually decided I will divorce her if she goes PA.

Fyi: little over a month ago she asked me during one of the discussions - what if I want to have sex with other men? She followed it up with a modesty reclamation by saying that she does not like men and that she is 'extremely' choosy with men. I promptly replied that she should file a divorce asap and then sleep with whoever.

That seems like a pretty good response to me. Quick, decisive and strong. But...remember action over words. Don't let her walk all over you.

Thanks. I am trying to manage the daily situations such that she does not walk all over me. Identifying the exact situations / words is a bit tricky. Requires a bit of mindful slow-mo to identify and respond appropriately.

[PeterB]

Covert contracts can lead to resentment which can build up and cause major problems over time. Work on this aspect of your personality. Learn to be more direction and upfront with your needs. You can be a fantastic father but also be treating your W poorly due to resentment.

I just realized this aspect of me in this thread itself. Will have to prep my mind to rectify this. Furthermore, over time I began to believe that not recognizing my contributions is part of her personality (which it probably is but I should not let that affect me). I think training my mind to recognize covert contracts and fix them will make me feel lighter.

If the A is still going on she is not trying to reconcile. Only going through the motions for whatever ulterior motive she has at the moment.

^Yep. If she's having an active affair she's acting like an addict - don't even try to get her to reconile - just work on yourself and be there for your son.

Yes I am not trying to make her reconcile. But as mentioned earlier she could be thinking I am actively trying to make her reconcile by doing a whole bunch of changes. Not getting annoyed at her and not raising my voice is the biggest 180 she has noticed. She has asked irritatedly - "why didn't you make these changes last year?".

[PeterB]

She started saying some things about her thoughts last night and I didn't respond at all.

As BL points out, validation can help you make progress. Talking about her feelings to you is a much better place to be than her giving up on saying anything towards you. I'll applaud biting your tongue when you weren't sure what to say. That at least doesn't move you backwards!

Yes in this case she was getting very provocative and I thought that not responding would be best as it could potentially trap me. I did make it clear to her that I was listening. But point noted that in most cases of verbal face-to-face discussions, it is best to validate.

[Kind18]

"why didn't you make these changes last year?".

Textbook WAS behaviour. They want THEIR decision to be YOUR fault. You working on yourself is inconvenient to their narrative.

Your Option A Response: “You’re right, I should have made these changes last year oh perfect one, but I’ve changed now, can we work it out and try again?”
Her translation: He obviously still wants to be with me, so it must be fake changes. I’m clearly making a smart decision.

Your Option B Response: “Oh well, we don’t always get what we want in life. Anyway, can’t talk, I’m off to the gym and then I’m going out with friends to a party.
Her translation: What????? He doesn’t give a sh*t and seems really happy. I can’t stand not having him begging and pleading like a puppy dog. Perhaps I’m making a big mistake??

This is how the brain of a WAS works. It makes zero sense, but what cha gonna do?

Get busy living!

[SteveLW]

PeterB I am starting to see your enlightenment through all of this coming to fruition! So many LBSs come here broken and scarred and just trying to hold on to their marriage, which was also broken, with a death grip! So kudos to you for starting to open your eyes to the reality of your situation.

Take what BL said about covert contracts to heart. Most of us suffered from some level of Nice Guy Syndrome in our life and now is a moment to face that in your self and fix it to set yourself up for future relationship success. I highly recommend the book No More Mr. Nice Guy.

And as far as Kind's two options....option B all day long and twice on Sunday!

[Kind18]

Interestingly, I’d say about 90% of LBS new to this website (including me straight after BD) would choose option A - and unknowingly push their spouse even further away than they already are.

Option A - weak.

Option B - strong and attractive.

Yes in this case she was getting very provocative and I thought that not responding would be best as it could potentially trap me. I did make it clear to her that I was listening. But point noted that in most cases of verbal face-to-face discussions, it is best to validate.

I think validation is sometimes over-rated on this site. I’d replace validation (ie you are right) with empathy (that sounds tough).

Leaving before she could “potentially trap me” is Jedi-Master behaviour. Well done Peter! Walking away from interactions is a strong move which shows you have self respect and will stick to your boundaries.

[SteveLW]

Kind, the reason I am a proponent of validation is because getting good at practicing can help a LBS separate their emotions from their responses. I like to view emotional responses as reactions. It is the Option A in your scenario, the reaction that comes instinctually. Validation can help get you to a place where you RESPOND with an option B.

Validation is not an end all be all. But it is a great tool for getting to a place where you respond rather than react! And it is especially a great tool for right-fighters.

[LH19]

I think validation is sometimes over-rated on this site.

I've been saying this for years. It goes in tune with the cookie cutter advice. I hate validating waywards. Makes my skin crawl. Practice on your kids, co-workers and friends.

[LH19]

Peter,

DB-ing is very hard. And men and women are different. Even MWD will tell you that it's harder to turn around a WAW and WW than a man. Also, there is a tendency on these forums to get stuck in waiting mode. MWD talks about the last resort technique, after the last resort techniques, ultimatums and going dark. These are proactive, powerful things that show you are serious. They almost never get mentioned or implemented on the forums. The nature of a forum leads to lots of analysis about every conversation, text and facial expression in the relationship.

It seems you need to know what you want. You seem a little unsure if you could forgive an actual infidelity or would pursue a divorce. The lack of clarity will affect your strategy and exhaust you.

It would seem you are getting into that zone that you are second guessing every action, conversation and thought about your wife. Every conversation, every little thing is being scrutinized. You can't keep this up for long. Why? It's exhausting. And...your wife can tell. She can see that you are dancing around her. Any change of behavior is, admit it or not, a way to change the outcome of this whole mess you're in. It makes her trust you less. To be honest, GAL, and being detached is very hard. How do you work hard at looking like you are not working hard? It's exhausting, bro. Very few people can be that Zen. Give yourself a break. Be yourself.

Your initial posture should be: if she is interested in separation or divorce, she can move to the couch and she can move out. Why should you uproot yourself if she wants out or is having an affair?

I think in Sandi's rules, particularly in dealing with a Wayward or WAW, it's important for the man to have set boundaries or rules, show strength and be clear. Respect leads to attraction. Also, establishing respect shows you are not someone to be trifled with.

The longer this drags on, the weaker your position becomes. You will compromise, make yourself smaller, meet her needs and then she'll walk all over you. Don't wait for her to act. Time to take control back.

If you are really worried about a physical affair, hire a private investigator. From electronic surveillance to following them around, you'll get the proof you need.

In my experience, unless you are a complete jerk, changing yourself, becoming your "best" self, doing 180's don't really last. Eventually you will revert to who you basically are. I've seen it on these boards before - intense personal change that lasts for 12, 18 or 24 mos and then you slip back. Sorry to say this, but it's inevitable. The divorce gets busted and then, 2 yrs later they are back on the boards and the marriage is toast. Personal change is super hard. If you're wife doesn't like who you are, might as well end it sooner than later. Again, if you're a real jerk and need serious help, get it. If you're just a normal guy, you aren't going to turn into superman. You can't save this marriage alone. Two people need to compromise and work at it. You will hear in the forums that 180's and being solution oriented are really just emergency measures to get their attention. GAL is for your own sanity. The real hard work of repairing a marriage is 50/50 and In the end, she has to want the marriage as much as you do.

This sounds like a contradiction but the only real change you need to make it clear, solid, boundaries and being hard-core about what you want and need. People respond to that. Being an emotional chameleon, "trying" to be detached doesn't work. Set boundaries, set ultimatums. This is hard, but, it helps avoid all the back and forth. Does she want to be married to you or not? Thus far she said she wants a separation or a divorce. Act on that. If you want something else, state it. You can say, "If you want to work on this marriage, fine, if you don't, I have some decisions to make in the next few weeks." Strength and clarity are attractive.

Having said all that try and get some sleep, exercise, eat well, have some fun. Take up a martial art, go rock climbing or take up a hobby that forces you to experience "one-mind" and extreme focus. Hard to worry about the marriage when you are ducking a kick to the head or reaching for the next handhold on the rock face. Gives you mind a rest. Yeah, I know, almost impossible when your marriage is imploding. Well, at least, try.

[BL42]

PeterB,

Should I tell her that if she PAs then I will divorce her (she does not know that I know about OM)?

You don't have to tell her, you can just do it. Action over words. IF you do choose to tell her, than you should stick to it, or we will learn you won't enforce your boundaries.

I thought about this and I actually decided I will divorce her if she goes PA.

You say you will divorce her if she's having a physical affair, but re-read what you previously wrote...

She is also having an affair with someone over the phone. She demonstrates very suspicious behavior, and someone informed me that he recently saw her on two dates with a guy she has known for a very long time. She met this guy while traveling and she changed suddenly soon after meeting him. He reported that her behavior was consistent with a physical relationship, although I don't know to what extent.

I'm sorry to say this, because I know you don't want to hear it, but it's almost certainly a physical affair and they've done much more than think. It's awful, I know, but that's reality.

Imo it's one thing for people to say they will leave/divorce a cheater but you never truly know how you'll feel/react until the situation happens in real life. It's alright if you want to keep your family together and are prepared to forgive if she feels remorse and wants to reconcile, but if a PA truly is a boundary for you you have to be prepared to enforce it, and you're very likely already in a situation with a PA. Sorry to say that, because I know it hurts, but better to face reality than ignore it.