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Originally Posted by 97Hope
Hiya LH19.

DnJ phrased it better than I can (I copied the quote on my thread that includes this) but basically saying they owe you nothing for the damage they did. Holding someone accountable can look like no trust, loss of relationship, change of relationship, depending on the injustice done toward a person.

I hate what my XH did to the family, me and our future. I won't be in a relationship with him ever again. I will be polite, I no longer want him to suffer. I let it go. (let him off the hook). The accountability is - he does not have access to my heart or my life, to include my emotions.

He's free to make his choices without any interference with me (off the hook), and I don't share my life with him (accountability). I will be polite to him (off the hook), but I will not act like his wife (accountability). I choose how I respond to him. I might play mario kart with him, for my children's benefit (off the hook), but I don't have to (accountability). It's all my choice.

That's what it looks like for me, at any rate. I think we all have different boundaries, appropriately so.
Thanks Hope for painting the picture. Pretty much sums up where I’m at almost too a tee. The funny part is before this weekend if someone said “Do you forgive your ex?” I would have said “no”. I kinda always thought someone would actually have to ask for it for me to do it. Maybe I don’t and best on what I’ve read I guess I do. Have to say it doesn’t make me feel better or worse so there’s that. Definitely not playing Mario Kart though lol.

2022 here we come lol.


M:51 W:46
T:22 M:16
S:15 D:11

�Happiness equals reality minus expectations�- Magliozzi
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Hello LH

Yep, forgiveness is bestowed without the need of them asking nor them needing to be worthy. It’s an internal shift of you, regardless of what they are doing or have done.

Before this weekend you’d have said no, if asked if you’d forgiven your ex. How about now?

Have you forgiven your ex?

I suspect not an easy answer. It is a process. No need to think in binary, yes or no. It can be both, and neither, as you journey.

D


Now: Me54 XW51 S25 S23 S21 D20

Oct 8/17-BD, Moves in w/OM, Leaves Kids
Me49 W46 S20 S19 S16 D15
M26 T29
Dec 9/17-Legal Separation
Oct 3/18-W Files
Apr 6/19-Divorced

Love the Sinner, Forgive the Sin.
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Enough with the Mario kart already!!!!!

And you should pay, it’s super fun.

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bttrfly Offline OP
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Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by bttrfly
Originally Posted by LH19
So how do you let them off the hook and still hold them accountable?

Re-visiting this because I just had a conversation with a friend and something there made me think of this discussion.

It's the same as hating someone's behavior but not hating the person. Separating the two. Is that more clear ?
Nope. I need a picture painted. How’s does Ms. Butterfly hold ex Mr. Butterfly accountable?
I am compassionate to the person he is, someone who was used as a weapon in the war between his parents, rather than cherished as their son, but I never forget for a second what he's amply demonstrated the damage he's capable of inflicting, and I never put myself in any position where I need anything from him if I can help it at all.

The accountability looks a lot like Hope's version - I'm polite, but there's a reserve that will not be breached. Respect, trust have to be earned. No longer freely given. When he contacts me, getting back to him is not a priority. I get back to him when I have free time to do so - not days later, but not immediately either, unless it's convenient for me. Any response from me is now measured and guarded. He was not listed in my mom's obit (he was listed in my dad's) - they loved him like a son, and I did include him but son deleted him from the final draft. Son didn't feel it was appropriate to the relationship in the last years of my mom's life. I feel in retrospect that decision hurt my exh, and I feel sad about it, but you know, you can't have it all ways, and I recognized that my son was not comfortable with his dad being listed and thought it best to honor my son's wishes over ex's hurt feelings.

I'm not sure how to best explain the accountability as a co-parent, without going into details I'd rather not share, so if this leaves questions I apologize and will answer them as best I can while protecting my son's privacy. My son and I had a hellish 2021. He didn't want his father involved, because he doesn't trust his dad. His dad has given ample and quite valid reasons for this mistrust, completely separate from the divorce. I used to try to co-parent, because this is a serious issue and I needed help, desperately. Once I realized that any involvement of ex's only made things more dire for my son as exh is a major trigger, accountability was me finally recognizing that and dealing with it on my own.

Now, some people may not think of that as accountability. It may seem exh was left off the hook. Not so. When son finally asked me to contact his father to tell him of the most recent episode (last spring), I did so with as much gentleness as possible. Why? Because no one needs to hear arguably some of the worst news a parent can hear in a cold manner.

When exh asked questions I told him the truth, because I won't lie when asked a direct question, which our son knows. When exh realized how many months I had been dealing with this, he asked why he wasn't told. I again told him the truth, our son didn't want him to know. This information really needed to come from our son, as coming from me would only make things worse for all of us. I didn't say, "every time I've asked for your help you've heaped abuse on me, told me I was lying, and reviled me to your AP/OW/new wife" - I didn't need to. He knows what he's done. He knows better than I what he's said and to whom he's spread his version of reality. He's responsible entirely for the fact that neither son nor I trust him enough to have him involved in something as deeply personal and serious as what our son has been dealing with and continues to try to heal from. He doesn't know that some of the few times he's talked to or seen our son have led to a recurrence of the most acute symptoms of what son deals with. What exh has is a very limited and tenuous relationship with the person he loves most in the world, our son, because son doesn't feel it's safe to be on intimate terms with his dad. What exh than usually does is contact me when weeks go by without son returning a call or a text, only to have me say "I'll have him contact you" because I'm not the go-between. That's a wifely duty I no longer have to fulfill.

In ex's case, accountability means watching, from a vast distance, your family move on without you. I do everything in my power to encourage son to try to heal his relationship with his dad, when he's ready. I always stress that exh didn't grow up in a vacuum ... that his role models were not the best. I always stress that we are all human, complex, flawed, doing the best we can and sometimes failing epically ... but that doesn't mean his dad doesn't love him, or that I don't love him. I've told son he will have a price to pay if he cuts his dad out of his life completely, but that I will also respect and support his right to decide the boundaries of their relationship.I pray they find a way to heal, for my son's sake more than ex's, although truthfully, they need each other.


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D Final 12/23/16

"There's something awfully screwy going on around here!"

Walk along the side of the road with a bag & you're gonna end up with a lot of trash!
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Originally Posted by 97Hope
Bttrfly!! I am catching up and read that you are Italian, too!! lol no wonder we get each other! <3
Paisan!!

Originally Posted by 97Hope
Ok, I know some of you guys got a bit serious, but I like the mario Kart analogy.
I had to attend a graduation of S20 and XH wasn't supposed to be there, but then he was.

I was polite. Period.
He tried to engage in small talk and I treated him like the stranger he is. Polite.
I don't know if I could have played mario kart with him. Know too much about strangulation and have been working out. (jokes, people!). But my youngest is the 20 y/o, so I don't have to and the grandsons don't expect it or ask for it. I think they like the time they get with me where they don't have to share the attention, tbh.

yes. well put!


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D Final 12/23/16

"There's something awfully screwy going on around here!"

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See, I really don’t find it my job to hold my ex accountable. That’s his job and his job only. I won’t be a doormat or abused anymore, and Like bttfly says. The one place I would like to hold his accountable is as a coparent.

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Morning. Feeling like the luckiest person on the planet. Had an accident yesterday morning - son and I were driving home when a large pickup truck going in the opposite direction hit the RR tracks too fast. This large metal shelving unit flew up in the air, into my lane and flew straight down and into my windshield. I don't know how we survived - someone is watching over us for real. Something smashed into my son's cheek - we think either the rearview mirror which is dangling by some wire, or the plastic assembly that held it in place. He has a thin cut that looks like a light scratch. That's it. Of course I have myriad tiny cuts on my hands from all the glass, and trying to brush the glass off of me. Otherwise, we're fine.

My beautiful car however needs a new hood, left quarter panel, fender and windshield, plus new windshield wipers and rear view mirror. Thankfully the other driver stopped. My son called the police, who came to the scene. I have to file the crash report later today. My mechanic came with the loaner and a flatbed to bring my car to the shop. I brought my son home, then drove to the shop to clean out the personal stuff in the car that will now be somewhat exposed to the elements. It was somewhat harrowing. I can still see the shelving unit flying down at us - with my eyes open - just looking at anything, even this screen, it's sort of superimposed. I guess that's pretty normal.

I'm looking at yesterday as the BEST DAY EVER because the most important thing here is that my son and I are alive. This could have ended much differently for us. Something came through the windshield, but then bounced back out, thank God.

Later we were able to take care of something for son that was extremely time sensitive - a Hail Mary that I think worked, again Thank God.

Finally, my dog started acting like he was having a seizure last night - no idea what was going on. I found the emergency vet hospital near here (no idea where such things are in this area, now I do) ... got him in there. Apparently he ate an edible cookie a friend had given my son, so yes, my dog is stoned out of his tiny little furry mind. Thankfully he will be ok after some subcutaneous fluids and sleep, plus the vet said he is in terrific shape for an almost 13 year old pup. Maybe now son will heed my requests to keep his smokey treats out of our living space. Another happy surprise - it didn't cost nearly as much as I thought it would, and I had the $$.

Oh, yeah, couple days before that I went into mom's to get a package of chicken out of the freezer and there was no heat - I'd forgotten to check the oil tank - completely out of oil. None of my cousins could help - my Dad was the person everyone in the family would call in this situation. thankfully a friend and his wife came (almost 2 hours round trip for them in the freezing cold), met me at the gas station with 4 gas cans which we filled with diesel, and then he showed me how to bleed and prime a boiler. So, if you're in my area and you need such expertise, I'm your gal. Again -- pipes could have frozen, but they didn't - feeling quite grateful.

So my point here is this: gratitude in the face of everything that happens to us carries us a long way.


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D Final 12/23/16

"There's something awfully screwy going on around here!"

Walk along the side of the road with a bag & you're gonna end up with a lot of trash!
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Phew! Girl, go buy a lottery ticket!

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(((Bttrfly)))

I’m so glad you and son are ok. Your car can be fixed. You definitely had an angel watching over you.

Now that I know your pup is ok, that story is a bit funny but glad the pooch is ok too.

We recently had a similar issue with our heat but back in business now. You rock, my friend!

I love your positive spin on what could’ve been some very bad experiences. Take it easy today and take care of yourself.


Me 52, H53
Bomb drop 9/29/2014
Divorce from XH final 12/17/2014
Marriage #2 12/31/2019
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Thank God you and your son are okay. What a scary incident. Both of you were very lucky because this could have been far, far worse. I hope that the guy who created this situation has good insurance and will work with you and your mechanic.

Definitely, someone was watching over you yesterday. I would venture to say it was your mother and father. I hope that today will be a better day and you and your son can unwind a bit from that accident today.

You are truly blessed!


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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