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McRamone #2926681 11/26/21 06:26 PM
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McRamone may be leaving, but I'll address key bits for lurkers here, and McRamone himself will almost certainly read this whether or not he replies.

Originally Posted by MlcXh
The measure of success here is not whether your W returns to you because that is no longer in your control, whether you admit it or not. Your true measure of success is whether you learn and grow from this experience to become a better person that can have better relationships going forward, romantic or otherwise.

Originally Posted by McRamone
Sorry but this is a crock. The site literally says "How to save your marriage" Not "How to survive a divorce."

Goals should be SMART--Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic, and Timely. You don't control whether you achieve "I survive a natural disaster." or "My wife returns." In the former case, you do control whether you stock adequate food and water. In the latter case, you do control whether you listen and validate or get defensive with others. Additionally, these activities increase your chances of surviving a natural disaster or of saving your marriage.

Originally Posted by McRamone
In reading their stories, 99% have made all the same mistakes.
Far fewer than 100 people have responded to your thread--maybe 15?--and even among that sample May, Steve, and some others have reconciled and remain married. I got a chance to R. Not everyone does. The odds are often against you by the time you're here. I do not see most people in this thread making "all the same mistakes". We are human and do err.

Originally Posted by McRamone
Some people will grow...some wont.
You control if you grow or not in terms of improving your communication style. Your belief in arrogance (your word choice) and poking at others don't seem productive.

Originally Posted by McRamone
. I am a real person behind the post who is experiencing a hurt like no other
I can relate. I'm sorry your wife has moved out.

Originally Posted by McRamone
I realize it was a mistake to come here.
Time will tell, McRamone. If you're inclined, report back in 3 months on what changes you made and whether she moved back in. We're rooting for you. Good luck!

McRamone #2926686 11/26/21 11:26 PM
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I understand and relate to your frustration.
Originally Posted by McRamone
Sorry but this is a crock. The site literally says "How to save your marriage" Not "How to survive a divorce."

This is a common problem and I understand how the wrong expectation that is set is annoying and frustrating. From my personal observation, there are only a small percentage of posters that end up on this forum reconciling with their spouses. It is often too late by the time we end up here. However, from what I have seen some of the counter intuitive advice is often the best course of action for the LBS regardless. The LBS has limited control on what their WAS spouse will do. The only thing the LBS controls is what they do and the advice is geared towards that.

I came to this forum expecting to save my marriage too and realized that this forum won’t likely help me get to my goal. On the flip side, I also realized that there were no other good alternatives to save my marriage either. Once a glass of milk is dropped on the floor, there are limited options to recover and consume that milk. If you are lucky you can fetch some new milk in the same glass but often even the glass has to be replaced. Similarly, you have to accept that your old relationship with your W has ended. You can start a new relationship with your wife (fetch fresh new milk in the same glass) if you’re lucky. If not, you have to prepare yourself to get fresh milk in a new glass (start a new relationship with a new person). Trying to drink the milk off the floor with pieces of broken glass in it can be dangerous and some of the advice helps prevent that. And yes, I do understand that’s not the advice that brought you to this forum.

Originally Posted by McRamone
Some people will grow...some wont. Time will heal most of the wounds - regardless. There are 100s of methods.

That’s accurate. If there is a method that works better for you, you should adopt that. You have realized by now that every person’s advice in this forum is influenced by their personal opinions and the advice varies. You have to pick what works for you. However, that does not mean you only pick the advice that aligns with what you are comfortable with. You need to take a step back, get out of your comfort zone, identify and face your flaws. If you are defensive you are losing a valuable opportunity to help yourself and potentially salvage restart a new relationship with your W.


Originally Posted by McRamone
It's funny you say "grow" is a measure of success. You see posters who called me out - making the same mistakes on other parts of the forum in their second or third relationship. Some who can't manage parts of their own lives. There are a least a couple of posters who got someone pregnant while still married to their spouse. At least one success story is from a guy domineering to his W. It's not a superiority complex, it's just pointing out the truth. The truth is ugly and people like to hide from their own truth.

Originally Posted by McRamone
The only thing you said that is true is this
[quote] posters here are people
.

Absolutely right! They are people and it is harder to follow advice than dish it out. That does not mean the advice is incorrect. Doctors advice their patients to eat a healthy diet and maintain a healthy weight. Yet, you see a lot of overweight doctors. There are many doctors who smoke or even consume drugs. That does not mean their advice is incorrect. Don’t judge the advice by the ability of the person to lead by example.

Originally Posted by McRamone
But I think they forget that people like me are also human - who make mistakes, have flaws and have feelings. I am a real person behind the post who is experiencing a hurt like no other. A hurt...you think these people would have some empathy with. But I think they forget that people like me are also human - who make mistakes, have flaws and have feelings. My W is also a person who I love.

Many posters tend to be blunt. Sometimes they are judgmental and many times the advise can be wrong. Understand that they are not professionals, just ordinary people. That is why one of the oft repeated advice is to get into iC. You need to have professional guidance and use this as a supplement and not the other way around. That does not mean the advice won’t help you. You are a smart person and can discern what advice makes sense and what does not. Don’t throw out the baby with the bath water.


Originally Posted by McRamone
In reading their stories, 99% have made all the same mistakes. No one here has all the answers. No one here knows everyone's situation.



The advice you are getting is based on the experience of the posters. As you said it, most of them have made the same mistakes and lived through the consequences. Some of them are still making mistakes because there is a difference between knowing what to do and doing it. They are rooting for you and don’t want you to repeat their mistakes.




Originally Posted by McRamone
I realize it was a mistake to come here. I wasn't looking for how to forget my W or how to divorce my W. I thought this place would offer me a space to talk through things and vent on what was happening. It ended up being a net negative.
Now you can just chalk it down to an isolated person, but the fact is there isn't much traffic here and I can't help but think the toxicity and negativity is a part of it.

For many ending up on this forum is serendipity. If there is one thing this site is good at, it is holding up a mirror for you to see the harsh reality of your situation. I agree that the discussions can get toxic and negative at times and that is one reason I don’t post as much. However, I don’t think the discussion has been toxic on your thread. As frustrated as you are, I think the posters are frustrated more because of your defensiveness. I would encourage you to be less defensive and view the advice in the context of what you can do given the limited options in your sitch rather than the goal of salvaging your old relationship. Don’t set your goal as wanting to drink spilt milk from a potentially broken glass.

McRamone #2926689 11/27/21 04:09 AM
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I’m sorry you feel this way.

I assume since you refuse to acknowledge if you are Tom H or another poster that must be it.

We are all human, we all make mistakes. We all the made the same mistake you made and are making. Theres no fake change you can make to get your spouse back. That there is a magic bullet to allure your wife back.

That point of this forum is to save yourself. Your spouse didn’t decide one day to cheat on you for fun. It’s to support you as you go through the motions of figuring out what went wrong. To be the best you, you can be and they hopefully re attracts your wife. And if not, you are the best happiest version of yourself and that helps your future relationships.

Good luck in the future.


Me: 40
EX:37
Together 17 years
Married 16 years
5 kids, 20,18,15,14,11

BD 03/06/20, divorced 12/23/21
McRamone #2926693 11/27/21 12:19 PM
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Mac,

I know now your story is not real but I will post on your thread for others who are reading. I will speak to the point of your reference to me when I said I need to take a break because I was being too negative. What I meant was I was recommending the LBS file for D a lot. It’s only negative in the connotation that it’s the opposite of what this site is about. Lately we have lots of WS who actively are on dating sites and have boyfriends/girlfriends while still married. They don’t even try to hide it anymore. IMO that amount of disrespect shouldn’t be tolerated. Plus IMO divorce is just a piece paper and can be undone at any time in the future.

Whoever you are your point is taken that when you are in the thick of it the advice given is hard to implement because your brain is trying to convince you otherwise. We have the hindsight that the posters don’t. We know they will be ok either way when they can’t see it.

Also since this is more of open thread I will give you in insight to why I am not a fan of WS. I use to love Thanksgiving I think it was my favorite holiday. What’s not to like , family, football, two dinners, drinks, long weekends, decorating for Christmas etc. My daughter and I have been cooking dinner for my parents and my two Aunts the last two years. We had fun cooking and listening to music the entire time. Fast forward to Friday and I got up early to get the Christmas decorations out of the basement and put up the tree. My daughter came down and ate breakfast so I asked her to wake up her brother to decorate the tree. She said she didn’t want to decorate the tree because she had to do it at her moms today. So I said “lucky you that you get to do it twice”. She ran up the stairs crying. I gave her some time and went to her room. She said she’s sick of doing everything twice. She’s sick of having two houses. So we continued the discussion and the next thing you know we are both in tears and I told her I didn’t want two houses either. So she says to me “then why did you choose this?” She’s under the impression that it was a mutual decision. I still don’t have the heart to tell her.

Although my life is really good right now I am not sure I will ever enjoy the holidays like I did in the past.

LH19 #2926694 11/27/21 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by LH19
So we continued the discussion and the next thing you know we are both in tears and I told her I didn’t want two houses either. So she says to me “then why did you choose this?” She’s under the impression that it was a mutual decision. I still don’t have the heart to tell her.

Kudos, my friend. It’s hard to do but you did the right thing by not telling her. Loving and respecting both parents is best for the kids and as y’all vets say we need to be the larger person to compensate for any shortcomings of the WAS!

LH19 #2926698 11/27/21 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by LH19
IMO divorce is just a piece paper and can be undone at any time in the future.

Interesting. I was recently at a wedding, well performing as part of the music. The vows they took from what I remember talked about forever no matter what, in sickness or health, good or bad, until death. I must have missed the part where the minister said it’s really just a piece of paper that can be undone at anytime. SMH


DonH
Midwest
Me 56
WAW-EXW 55
Met 11/95 / Married 5/00
Bomb 6/20/05 / She Filed on 6/2/06 / Divorced on 10/9/06
4 who'd qualify as GF since D & dated about 25 women since D
McRamone #2926699 11/27/21 06:32 PM
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Well Don I said divorce was a piece of paper that get be undone at any time but yep my point works for marriage too.

DonH #2926702 11/28/21 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by DonH
Originally Posted by LH19
IMO divorce is just a piece paper and can be undone at any time in the future.

Interesting. I was recently at a wedding, well performing as part of the music. The vows they took from what I remember talked about forever no matter what, in sickness or health, good or bad, until death. I must have missed the part where the minister said it’s really just a piece of paper that can be undone at anytime. SMH

Marriage is usually nothing more than a contract made by two people in a relationship. Two people in a relationship can do exactly the same things as a married couple without getting married such as loving each other in sickness until death or raising children. The difference is when society has laws or customs that differentiate between married and unmarried couples. It’s hard for most people to accept an unromantic version of marriage but reality is that in many instances you can go to a courthouse sign the marriage contract and be legally married without vows, a ceremony or a music band smile

50% of all marriages end in divorce and a large percentage of those that don’t end in divorce have isssues like adultery or EAs. If the vows really mean something, shouldn’t you technically be divorced once one of the spouses willfully breaks the vows with no regard for the other?

McRamone #2926703 11/28/21 08:21 AM
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I think there's a difference in outcomes between the folks that end up reading the posts here, the folks that post for a bit and disappear, and the folks that end up posting long threads and keep posting for years. There are probably more reconciliations among the former two groups than the latter group. So, in judging the methods and advice here, I think that it is important to keep in mind what happens to those other groups as well as what happens for the regular posters. While I did not succeed in saving my marriage, I'm pretty that there are others who could save their marriages if they followed my path.

But when this approach doesn't succeed in saving a marriage, I don't know if there's anything else that would make a difference. I certainly never thought of anything else to try.

As for advice on how to survive a divorce, I certainly hope that people don't need that advice and that they can save their marriage. But if you do need that advice and I certainly did, the advice and the posters here are absolutely precious. The folks here saved me from so much emotional anguish, I'll be forever grateful.

Just remember, that the posters here understand what you're feeling, what you're going through, and are trying to help you.

In the end, you'll come to understand much of what drives the advice and to see that things you thought were wrong were actually right.

The only advice I question is Steve's opinion on how many wayward spouses want to reconcile. (Sorry, Steve). But maybe, I'm just in the 10%.

-Spiral

LH19 #2926704 11/28/21 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by LH19
Well Don I said divorce was a piece of paper that get be undone at any time but yep my point works for marriage too.


LH, I agree with you that divorce is just a piece a paper that could be easily undone.

But I think the problem is that there are a few things which prevent WAWs from contacting the LBS and patching things up :
- guilt and shame for cheating, leaving and treating him badly
- afraid of admitting being wrong
- refusing to give the LBS back the power

Personnally I think for these reasons my ex wife will never reach out to me.

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