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#2926257 11/10/21 03:50 PM
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Hello. I’m trying to remain calm and focused. I’m not even sure if this is the right place but my marriage is teetering.

I am 50, W is 46. 2 sons. Same old story - well not exactly. We have been married for 23 years. The last two years have been both incredibly frustrating personally but also incredibly rewarding financially and in our careers.

I am an L. My wife is a psychiatrist.

We moved across the country in 2018 when my W got her dream job at a major Hosptial. I left my job but quickly found a suitable position. It was actually a big financial increase from my old job.

But my W was no longer meeting my intimacy needs and it was upsetting. We had conversation after conversation. She’d try for a few months then declare it was working so she stopped.

We did continue to have sex ( we had a standing time on Friday nights). But we we had arguments in would stop for a few months and it felt like she was punishing me.

I found out when I moved here she had something going on before we moved with another person. I initially thought it was some inappropriate texting over a few days. About a year later, I discovered there was more than I thought. At least 3 period of sexting (involving pics) and before we move they met and made out and did other stuff (not sex as I confirmed in their texts)

Initially she was very remorseful. She actually cut it off a few months before I found out. Went NC with the guy and just planned to focus on us. She had zero plans to run away with this guy for a number of reasons. I can talk about this later.

But she was mad that I invaded her privacy to find out what I did and this led her to focus on the other times I invaded her privacy in the past. She grew up in a house where everyone respected everyone else’s privacy. While my upbringing everything was fair game like reading diaries, opening someone’s mail, etc.

So this created a bad dynamic. I was looking for reassurances in my love language (touch) did she wanted to be in a marriage that she still cared and she remorseful. She did that for a little bit but thought that I wasn’t responding to it so decided to not continue it. Then I’d get upset she was pulling away when I needed her more.

So why not responding coupled with the privacy issue caused her to build up a lot of anger over the last six months.


That leads us to where we are at. She has unfortunately decided that we need to separate. She wants to put some parameters around it. She said that she only wants a separate for three months (living in different places), she wants to continue seeing our MC. Her goal is to help dissipate some of the anger so she can work on the things she needs to do between us with a clear head.

I of course am terrified that this is just the first step towards divorce.

As it stands now she has a place. She’s planning on moving out sometime this wee to start the 3 months. And I am trying to be supportive about it but it’s causing me a lot of pain which I am terrible at hiding.

I’ve spent time reading a lot of stories on this place I thought this would be a good place for me to vent and seek advice on how to get things back on track.


Thanks.

McRamone #2926278 11/11/21 07:31 PM
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Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


Me-70, D37,S36
Cadet #2926280 11/11/21 08:09 PM
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Thank you for the information I have the DB book and have read it an taken notes. But i'm in a little bit of an odd position. My W is not talking D for now (key phrase) She has said that she doesn't want to divorce...but she said that she can't live with her anger towards me. Nor can she live with me being made an upset for what she's did.

She told our MC that she is back and forth about moving out. She initially wanted me to fully support her move out, but then she admitted to the MC that she was being unrealistic. I told my W the following about setting a move out time

Me: Thank you for letting me know as we discussed. I know this isn't easy for you or me. Let me know what help you need (with furniture, support, etc). I want you know that you have my support.

Her: I hear you but that is at odds with you being upset about the move.

Me: I understand that but I can be supportive while still recognizing it hurts me.

Her: So you aren't really being supportive then.

Me: (silence)

I'm trying to read up on stuff and how to respond.

Thanks.

McRamone #2926281 11/11/21 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
But she was mad that I invaded her privacy to find out what I did and this led her to focus on the other times I invaded her privacy in the past. She grew up in a house where everyone respected everyone else’s privacy. While my upbringing everything was fair game like reading diaries, opening someone’s mail, etc.
Hi McRamone, in a desire to seek balance, we sometimes lose perspective. Often cheaters focus on the privacy violation, but the wrongness of her cheating on you vastly outweighs any wrongness of you snooping a couple of times. It's true you can't rebuild a relationship on snooping. We'd have encouraged you to ask her to open up her devices as a term of you being back in, so she can prove to you she's done with the underhanded behavior, and you can rebuild trust in her being faithful.

Originally Posted by McRamone
this led her to focus on the other times I invaded her privacy in the past.
Interesting. What privacy violations did you do before she began cheating and why? Do you have any visibility into why she lost interest in intimacy with you and cheated in the first place? How old are your kids? What do you love about her (besides familiarity) that outweighs being an unfaithful partner? This may shed light on her ability to be faithful, whether it's worth staying, and areas for you to do personal work on to create a more satisfying marriage.

Originally Posted by McRamone
She wants to put some parameters around it. She said that she only wants a separate for three months (living in different places), she wants to continue seeing our MC. Her goal is to help dissipate some of the anger so she can work on the things she needs to do between us with a clear head.
It's her choice. Hopefully, you're being clear you don't want this and aren't using wishy-washy words such as stating it could be helpful. It's great to validate she feels that way or actively listen "You want to move out in a week."

I would be skeptical of any parameters she sets. In many situations, the WAS's parameters only bind the LBS. E.g., if after 3 months she doesn't want to return she won't, but she wants the LBS to commit they'll be waiting and a door wide open in 3 months if they want it. Having a backup plan reduces the risk the WAS takes on in separating.

While an unfaithful spouse who wants her own place isn't a promising start, I'm just saying to be clear you don't want this and slow to commit to any unenforceable terms while you're separated.

You can get through this a stronger person, hopefully with a marriage you deserve. So many people here with experience in similar situations! Make sure you get some sleep. Wishing you luck!

McRamone #2926282 11/11/21 08:30 PM
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McRamone,

Sorry about your situation, but good you came here for support and advice. Make sure to post a lot and respond to others and you'll get more and more people commenting on your sitch.

Originally Posted by McRamone
I am 50, W is 46. 2 sons. Same old story - well not exactly. We have been married for 23 years.
How old are your two sons? Are they still living with you?

Originally Posted by McRamone
But my W was no longer meeting my intimacy needs and it was upsetting. We had conversation after conversation. She’d try for a few months then declare it was working so she stopped.

We did continue to have sex ( we had a standing time on Friday nights). But we we had arguments in would stop for a few months and it felt like she was punishing me.
You talk about your needs and frustrations. What about hers? What were her complaints? Are their behaviors you need to change to better yourself?

Originally Posted by McRamone
I found out when I moved here she had something going on before we moved with another person. I initially thought it was some inappropriate texting over a few days. About a year later, I discovered there was more than I thought. At least 3 period of sexting (involving pics) and before we move they met and made out and did other stuff (not sex as I confirmed in their texts)
Unfortunately in almost all cases the WS/WAS and their AP have done more than LBS spouse initially thinks or finds out about. Don't be surprised if it actually did involve sex. Sorry.

Originally Posted by McRamone
Initially she was very remorseful. She actually cut it off a few months before I found out. Went NC with the guy and just planned to focus on us. She had zero plans to run away with this guy for a number of reasons. I can talk about this later.
Remorseful is good. That's not always the case.

Originally Posted by McRamone
But she was mad that I invaded her privacy to find out what I did and this led her to focus on the other times I invaded her privacy in the past.
It's very common for the person having an affair to get angry and indignant about "invading privacy" or "trust issues" and see that in their minds as worse than the actual affair.

Originally Posted by McRamone
She has unfortunately decided that we need to separate. She wants to put some parameters around it. She said that she only wants a separate for three months (living in different places), she wants to continue seeing our MC. Her goal is to help dissipate some of the anger so she can work on the things she needs to do between us with a clear head.

I of course am terrified that this is just the first step towards divorce.

As it stands now she has a place. She’s planning on moving out sometime this wee to start the 3 months. And I am trying to be supportive about it but it’s causing me a lot of pain which I am terrible at hiding.
Unfortunately there's nothing you can do to stop her from moving out. That's beyond your control. You need to let go. Use the time to focus on yourself and your sons. Make changes to behaviors you need to address. Work out. Get hobbies. Go out with friends. Work on yourself and make positive changes to improve your life.

Originally Posted by McRamone
I’ve spent time reading a lot of stories on this place I thought this would be a good place for me to vent and seek advice on how to get things back on track.
Good. Glad you're hear for support and advice. It really helped me a lot to read and hear about others' situations and know I wasn't alone and would be alright.


Me:39 Ex-W:37
M:7 T: 9
S:6 D:3
BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20
OM1 affair ends: May '20
W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20
W files for D: Jul20
OM2 confirmed: 9/2020
Divorced: May '21
McRamone #2926286 11/11/21 09:10 PM
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More info.
Kids are mid and early teens. Obviously both live with us now

(Hope I'm getting this quote thing right)

Originally Posted by CWarrior
Interesting. What privacy violations did you do before she began cheating and why? Do you have any visibility into why she lost interest in intimacy with you and cheated in the first place? How old are your kids? What do you love about her (besides familiarity) that outweighs being an unfaithful partner? This may shed light on her ability to be faithful, whether it's worth staying, and areas for you to do personal work on to create a more satisfying marriage.

A few things. We grew up with vastly different perspectives on privacy. My W viewed things like open her mail (after being married), looking at her spending, reading her emails - as an invasion. I realize all have varying degrees of severity. But I'm also a very curious person in general and good an finding info on people (this helps in part of my job) There were other things to that crossed most lines of decency though. For example, I read part of her diary when we were dating because I was insecure and want to see how she felt about me. She found out.
She has also always been a private person and more of a loner type. She needs lots of alone time to decompress. My first GF in college was just like this too. So I pick ‘em.
Her family is very demonstrative with affection. She kind of rebelled against. We've also had several long standing disagreements about sex.

But I have ZERO idea (okay one idea) on why she stepped out of the marriage. It was when things were going very well for us. She told me she doesn't know. She has said more times than I can count "it had nothing to do with you, or our marriage. I love you a lot" (I have never believe that)

What do I love? (My MC recently asked me this) Well, I love that she is smart, great with older people, has a great sense of humor, a good mom, we are a great team and compliment each other. I don't put her on pedestal as she has her flaws.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
It's her choice. Hopefully, you're being clear you don't want this and aren't using wishy-washy words such as stating it could be helpful. It's great to validate she feels that way or actively listen "You want to move out in a week."

I would be skeptical of any parameters she sets. In many situations, the WAS's parameters only bind the LBS. E.g., if after 3 months she doesn't want to return she won't, but she wants the LBS to commit they'll be waiting and a door wide open in 3 months if they want it. Having a backup plan reduces the risk the WAS takes on in separating.

She knows my stance and it's clear. But I'm confused on the second part. Everything I've read, said you have to have some parameters on everything.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
While an unfaithful spouse who wants her own place isn't a promising start, I'm just saying to be clear you don't want this and slow to commit to any unenforceable terms while you're separated.

I understand what you are saying but I don’t get how me agreeing to the 3 months is bad. I am NOT her plan B. She has told me I'm plan A.

Originally Posted by BL42
You talk about your needs and frustrations. What about hers? What were her complaints? Are their behaviors you need to change to better yourself?

This is where I struggle. I’ve tried to ask her what she needs from me. She hardly says anything other than “I need to not be mad at me.” She does occasionally ask me to go paddle boarding with her, or watch a movie, we go to dinner once week. But I often feel like she doesn’t need much from me. We have a good cadence on splitting up the home and parenting work (if I’m honest, I take on more of it)
She also wants me to ask her when I need things and I am working that but it feels unnatural.


Originally Posted by BL42
Unfortunately in almost all cases the WS/WAS and their AP have done more than LBS spouse initially thinks or finds out about. Don't be surprised if it actually did involve sex. Sorry.
I certainly know that is the pattern. I found all the stuff before she knew I discovered so unless they were lying in the text. I think I have a good idea. But I could be wrong the questions is 'so what if that is the case?'

Originally Posted by BL42
It's very common for the person having an affair to get angry and indignant about "invading privacy" or "trust issues" and see that in their minds as worse than the actual affair.

Agree, but unfortunately this was previous issue with us and she can’t separate the two.

Originally Posted by BL42
Unfortunately there's nothing you can do to stop her from moving out. That's beyond your control. You need to let go. Use the time to focus on yourself and your sons. Make changes to behaviors you need to address. Work out. Get hobbies. Go out with friends. Work on yourself and make positive changes to improve your life.


This is already being done. I do yoga 2x week, I ride my bike 3Xweek, I’m getting my new treadmill soon. I to go IC. I have a couple of hobbies- cooking, collecting, etc. I go to concerts with friends (or myself). I am fully engaged with both sons (as much as the parent of teens can be.) Teaching my oldest how to drive (Watch out for that tree!)

McRamone #2926290 11/11/21 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
But i'm in a little bit of an odd position. My W is not talking D for now (key phrase) She has said that she doesn't want to divorce...but she said that she can't live with her anger towards me.
This is common. Been there, done that with a live-in XGF, reconciled after.

Originally Posted by McRamone
She told our MC that she is back and forth about moving out.

Quote
Me: Thank you for letting me know as we discussed. I know this isn't easy for you or me. Let me know what help you need (with furniture, support, etc). I want you know that you have my support.
"I understand you have mixed feelings about moving out." -- This is active listening and validation. You're acknowledging her words and feelings without judging, pleading, anger, etc.

Originally Posted by McRamone
Her: I hear you but that is at odds with you being upset about the move.
Smart woman! If you don't want this separation, stop helping her to separate. Dig deep--why the inconsistent words and actions? Often it's an attempt to nice them back. You don't control if she goes; you do control if you make it easier. I assume she's an adult capable of figuring out how to move on her own and you don't live in a country where she needs your consent.

McRamone #2926291 11/11/21 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
I’m not even sure if this is the right place but my marriage is teetering.
It is the right place. Welcome. I arrived here in 2008/9. I have been "studying and learning" about this topic since then.

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I am 50, W is 46. 2 sons. Same old story - well not exactly. We have been married for 23 years.
I am 54.

Quote
I am an L. My wife is a psychiatrist.
This will be interesting. We typically(99%) recommend getting legal advise and getting into IC.


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But my W was no longer meeting my intimacy needs and it was upsetting.
She had/has lost her attraction to you. Most guys do not "Get it" . I strongly suggest you focus on understanding how changing your behavior changes your attractiveness. There is a thread here that discusses this. That can be your baseline....doing more research in this area will be good for you.


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We had conversation after conversation.
Most people think talking will solve the issue. I believe changes in behavior and the way you interact are much better at solving these issues. Less talk, more action is almost always better.


Quote
We did continue to have sex ( we had a standing time on Friday nights). But we we had arguments in would stop for a few months and it felt like she was punishing me.
There are changes to your behavior that can positively effect this. I can elaborate on this if you would like.


Quote
I found out when I moved here she had something going on before we moved with another person. I initially thought it was some inappropriate texting over a few days. About a year later, I discovered there was more than I thought. At least 3 period of sexting (involving pics) and before we move they met and made out and did other stuff (not sex as I confirmed in their texts)
Sounds like you are not dealing with an active affair, but you can't rule out an active affair. Affairs are symptoms, not cause of issues in relationships. Understanding affairs is another area to do some research.


Quote
But she was mad that I invaded her privacy to find out what I did and this led her to focus on the other times I invaded her privacy in the past. She grew up in a house where everyone respected everyone else’s privacy. While my upbringing everything was fair game like reading diaries, opening someone’s mail, etc.
Read this post:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2051316#Post2051316
I can clarify if you would like.


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She has unfortunately decided that we need to separate.
Agree with her. Do not try to control her.


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She wants to put some parameters around it.
Do not agree to any parameters.

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She said that she only wants a separate for three months
Do not agree to a time.


Quote
I of course am terrified that this is just the first step towards divorce.
Let go of the fear. What you fear you will bring into existence.
Look up : Stockdale Paradox


Do not express your emotions in the presents of your W. Do not be cold. Put your game face on. Slightly excited that you are free.


I wish you well during this most difficult time.

Keep posting. We have been in your shoes.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
McRamone #2926300 11/12/21 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
I found out when I moved here she had something going on before we moved with another person. I initially thought it was some inappropriate texting over a few days. About a year later, I discovered there was more than I thought. At least 3 period of sexting (involving pics) and before we move they met and made out and did other stuff (not sex as I confirmed in their texts)
There is always more then you thought and probably more then you can ever imagine.
Originally Posted by McRamone
Initially she was very remorseful. She actually cut it off a few months before I found out. Went NC with the guy and just planned to focus on us. She had zero plans to run away with this guy for a number of reasons. I can talk about this later.
Her being remorseful is a good sign. Typically WS are not remorseful when caught.
Originally Posted by McRamone
But she was mad that I invaded her privacy to find out what I did and this led her to focus on the other times I invaded her privacy in the past. She grew up in a house where everyone respected everyone else’s privacy. While my upbringing everything was fair game like reading diaries, opening someone’s mail, etc.
This is standard script and just a reason to make you the the bad gut.
Originally Posted by McRamone
So this created a bad dynamic. I was looking for reassurances in my love language (touch) did she wanted to be in a marriage that she still cared and she remorseful.
Do not like for reassurances right now because she can not give them to you.
Originally Posted by McRamone
She did that for a little bit but thought that I wasn’t responding to it so decided to not continue it.
My guess is that she stopped because she is not attracted to you RIGHT NOW.
Originally Posted by McRamone
Then I’d get upset she was pulling away when I needed her more.
Yeah so acting needy at this time is going to be a major turn off to her.
Originally Posted by McRamone
So why not responding coupled with the privacy issue caused her to build up a lot of anger over the last six months.
So she has likely been building resentment for many years and she has hit her tipping point. If resentment builds too much over time, eventually it becomes "too much" and people start contemplating an exit from the relationship. During this period, the relationship is really "on trial" but the other party is usually totally unaware of it.

Once the trial is over and the person has more or less resolved to leave, you're on the tail end of a year’s long process. It goes "things are overall good, but this stuff is annoying" -> "These things are really annoying but not bad enough that I want to leave" -> "These things are really annoying and I don't know if I can stay" -> "These things are really annoying and now I have to get out"

Originally Posted by McRamone
That leads us to where we are at. She has unfortunately decided that we need to separate.
Given that you have to make things worse before they can possibly get better, separation may not be a bad choice, but I would advise pursuing a separation with the same rules you would have if you were divorced, which is to say that you don't continue to comingle your lives (aside from the kids) and you are free to live your own lives without social accountability to the other person.

That way she can really see if that way of life is better or worse for her. Prepare yourself that in the beginning she will view it as better, mainly because she'll find new found freedom and has convinced herself that its what she wants. It may take six months or two years for reality to set in, but it certainly will.

My advice would be to lean in to what she wants, agree to separate, and work productively with her on the plan with the presentation that you're on board and plan to enjoy this change also. That's going to make her wonder. You want her to wonder what you're thinking, and from this point forward you shouldn't tell her anything about your frame of mind -- nothing at all.

Originally Posted by McRamone
She said that she only wants a separate for three months (living in different places), she wants to continue seeing our MC. Her goal is to help dissipate some of the anger so she can work on the things she needs to do between us with a clear head.
Only continue with MC if you feel she is making a valent effort to improve the marriage. The minute you don't feel she is participating productively politely end the sessions.
Originally Posted by McRamone
I of course am terrified that this is just the first step towards divorce.
If you are afraid you will end up divorced, you will likely end up divorced. Fear is the LBS number one enemy. It causes them to desperate unattractive things.
Originally Posted by McRamone
As it stands now she has a place. She’s planning on moving out sometime this wee to start the 3 months.
It's good that she moved out. Drop the timeline because it will likely go longer. If you don't it will be like having one of those bomb count clocks in your head. This is a marathon not a sprint and your journey is just beginning.
Originally Posted by McRamone
And I am trying to be supportive about it but it’s causing me a lot of pain which I am terrible at hiding.
You have to hide it. Fake it until you make it.
Originally Posted by McRamone
I’ve spent time reading a lot of stories on this place I thought this would be a good place for me to vent and seek advice on how to get things back on track.
The good news is I think your w only has one foot out the door. How you act during the separation may very well determine your fate. If you act sad, mopy and depressed it will likely be permanent. If you get a life like a mad man and act as if maybe you might enjoy being single too you very well have a chance. The decision is yours to make. Good luck and we are here to help.

McRamone #2926301 11/12/21 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
Hello. I’m trying to remain calm and focused. I’m not even sure if this is the right place but my marriage is teetering.

I am 50, W is 46. 2 sons. Same old story - well not exactly. We have been married for 23 years. The last two years have been both incredibly frustrating personally but also incredibly rewarding financially and in our careers.

I am an L. My wife is a psychiatrist.

We moved across the country in 2018 when my W got her dream job at a major Hosptial. I left my job but quickly found a suitable position. It was actually a big financial increase from my old job.

But my W was no longer meeting my intimacy needs and it was upsetting. We had conversation after conversation. She’d try for a few months then declare it was working so she stopped.

We did continue to have sex ( we had a standing time on Friday nights). But we we had arguments in would stop for a few months and it felt like she was punishing me.

I found out when I moved here she had something going on before we moved with another person. I initially thought it was some inappropriate texting over a few days. About a year later, I discovered there was more than I thought. At least 3 period of sexting (involving pics) and before we move they met and made out and did other stuff (not sex as I confirmed in their texts)

Initially she was very remorseful. She actually cut it off a few months before I found out. Went NC with the guy and just planned to focus on us. She had zero plans to run away with this guy for a number of reasons. I can talk about this later.

But she was mad that I invaded her privacy to find out what I did and this led her to focus on the other times I invaded her privacy in the past. She grew up in a house where everyone respected everyone else’s privacy. While my upbringing everything was fair game like reading diaries, opening someone’s mail, etc.

So this created a bad dynamic. I was looking for reassurances in my love language (touch) did she wanted to be in a marriage that she still cared and she remorseful. She did that for a little bit but thought that I wasn’t responding to it so decided to not continue it. Then I’d get upset she was pulling away when I needed her more.

So why not responding coupled with the privacy issue caused her to build up a lot of anger over the last six months.


That leads us to where we are at. She has unfortunately decided that we need to separate. She wants to put some parameters around it. She said that she only wants a separate for three months (living in different places), she wants to continue seeing our MC. Her goal is to help dissipate some of the anger so she can work on the things she needs to do between us with a clear head.

I of course am terrified that this is just the first step towards divorce.

As it stands now she has a place. She’s planning on moving out sometime this wee to start the 3 months. And I am trying to be supportive about it but it’s causing me a lot of pain which I am terrible at hiding.

I’ve spent time reading a lot of stories on this place I thought this would be a good place for me to vent and seek advice on how to get things back on track.


Thanks.

Welcome to the board and sorry you are going through this difficult time. Most of us here can relate. These things are difficult to navigate, you second guess every move and decision, and most of us come here looking for the magic bullet, the right thing to say or do to fix things.

Unfortunately, there is no magic bullet.

You are already getting advice so I want to hone in on something you have made a big point of in your OP:

Originally Posted by McRamone
But she was mad that I invaded her privacy to find out what I did and this led her to focus on the other times I invaded her privacy in the past. She grew up in a house where everyone respected everyone else’s privacy. While my upbringing everything was fair game like reading diaries, opening someone’s mail, etc.

This is rubbish. No married couple can claim an expectation of privacy. There are supposed to be no secrets between spouses. So her focusing so much on "you violated my privacy" is a bunch of malarkey. And no amount of "family history" changes that. The fact that she had something to hide far and away outweighs the fact that you "violated her privacy".

My wife tried the same tactic on me. After a few days she was angry that I had snooped on her. She started to misdirect from her EA and make that the focus of our situation. I finally shut it down by saying to her: "There is no way to make my snooping worse than the fact that there was something to find!" I am not suggesting you say that at this juncture, but if your MC isn't already using that tact with her then I would say find another one.

And while we are on the subject of MC, I highly suggest you stop MC. Tell her "I have to decided that at this point MC is a waste of time, so I will be stopping MC. I have a lot to work through and to come to grips with so I will be starting IC instead."

MC is a zero sum game. For the LBS they put all their eggs into the MC basket thinking that as long as they are going to MC, there is a chance. The WAS sees MC in a completely different light. They usually agree to it very reluctantly, and then only so that they can later say "We tried everything, even MC." So in a way MC lets the WAS off the hook. Also, the WAS will use MC to try to get the LBS used to the idea that the marriage is coming to an end. This is why the advice is to not do MC with a spouse that has one foot out of the door. Their will be time for MC later, if and when the WAS finally decides to work on the MR.

I see you repeating what she says in your OP, and you seem to put a lot of stock into what she says. Don't. The thing about lying cheaters is that you cannot trust anything they say. We have saying around here: believe nothing she says and only half of what she does.

Now obviously you've been struggling with what to do from this point forward for a while now. I highly suggest reading sandi's rules. Studying them, knowing them, putting them into practice. I kept a copy of them with me at all times. I read them 12-24 times a day. Changing up your dynamic about how you interact with her is going to help you to start moving forward. It will help you to not focus so much on her, what she is saying or doing, or not saying or doing. So really understand sandi's rules, they were a life saver for me.

And then really just focus on yourself. Take all pressure and pursuit off of her. If she wants to separate, you can state ONE TIME (do not repeat it) that you disagree with the step but that you won't stand her way. After all, you cannot really stop her from leaving anyway! You have no control over her, her emotions, her thoughts, her feelings. So don't even try. Just focus on you.

And then go out and get a life. Be busy as you can possibly be. Get into IC and start changing into a better version of yourself...for you! And then learn what emotional detachment is (google "self-differentiation in marriage", it helped me a lot with the concept), and start working on becoming properly, lovingly emotionally detached. Think of it at a high-level this way: you no longer react emotionally to what she says and does.

Also, most of us that struggle(d) with intimacy issues in our marriage suffered from some form of Nice Guy Syndrome. I highly recommend getting the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy". It can do wonders for your outlook towards women, and relationships in general.

McRamone, you got this man! You are going to move forward with your life and become the best version of yourself......for you! She will either come along for the ride, or she won't. But in a year you will look back and say "I am a much better person today than I was a year ago!" Go out and make that happen.


M(53), W(54),D(19)
M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
Ring and Piecing since March 2018
McRamone #2926302 11/12/21 03:40 PM
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I know I'm on moderation and it's no fun. LH, Steve, BL, CW thanks for the kinds words and taking time.

I feel like message are crossing but a few more thoughts.

1st, I don't know why but I didn't get the confirmation email from DBsite to my email. I hope that doesn't mean my account will be cancelled. I checked the junk mail too - nada.


I am confused. Many people have said that I can't tell my wife not to move or or tell her to move out. But wouldn't the same also apply to parameters on living apart? I was not the one saying 3 months - she was. I didn't say agree or disagree with that. But if I say no to that, isn't that me trying to control. I wasn't the one saying MC - she was. Also, I'm not dating and I haven't agreed to any with her.

Also, She did all her own legwork, got her own place, coordinate all her own everything. But it sounds I can't support her decision in any way? Especially when she's telling me what she needs. I only told her to let me know the financial implications because that is important to manage.
While I don't practice in family law, I certain know the rights and implications of the moving pieces here. I have had a consult with an family law L in town, so I'm all set on that. Unfortunately, the D laws in most states don't take into account bad actors (thank you R.Reagan in the 1970s...not really)

On her feelings of privacy. I get that you think it's rubbish steve, but if I say that to her ...is that me dismissing her feelings about it? And these feelings are from way before the 'incident" Some of which I contributed to.

McRamone #2926309 11/12/21 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
But wouldn't the same also apply to parameters on living apart? I was not the one saying 3 months - she was. I didn't say agree or disagree with that. But if I say no to that, isn't that me trying to control.
Passive - Letting others control you
Aggressive - Controlling others
Assertive - Controlling yourself

Your goal is to be assertive without being aggressive.

Originally Posted by McRamone
I wasn't the one saying MC - she was.
See above. She controls if she sees the therapist, you control if you see the therapist. It would be controlling if you were to tell her "No, she can't go." It's not controlling for you to say "No, I won't go." Before DB, I didn't recognize how often "Should WE go" was used by me and others as an attempt to exert control. She's separating. Find and show yourself as an individual.

Last edited by CWarrior; 11/12/21 06:29 PM.
McRamone #2926313 11/12/21 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
I am confused. Many people have said that I can't tell my wife not to move or or tell her to move out.
Well you can but that would be considered controlling. She is moving out and that is a good thing because you need time and space apart from one another.

Originally Posted by McRamone
But wouldn't the same also apply to parameters on living apart? I was not the one saying 3 months - she was.
That's ok. Just don't try to hold her to it. It it turns into 4,5,6 it doesn't matter because you are too busy kicking a$$ with life and figuring out what you want moving forward.

Originally Posted by McRamone
I didn't say agree or disagree with that. But if I say no to that, isn't that me trying to control. I wasn't the one saying MC - she was.
I think you should go to MC and observe, listen and validate. You will find out soon enough the following:

I read in a book once that people come to MC for a variety of reasons:

1) Trying to give the appearance that they "tried" when in fact they had already given up. This is public face-saving
2) Trying to help the other person come to terms with the fact that they have decided to leave
3) Trying to get a third party to validate that they are right and the other person is wrong
4) Trying to save their marriage by being willing to work on it.

They said that 95% of the time, one person is coming for reasons 1-3, and the other person is coming for reason 4. When only one person is in, MC has a 0% success rate.

It said that people usually come in about three years too late, when one party is already fully checked out.

It sounds like you're fully in this scenario where you're in group 4 and W is in some combination of groups 1-3. In that scenario, you have almost no chance of success with MC.

I would strongly recommend individual IC and telephone DB coaching as being a *much* more effective course of action for you.

In this situation that one person is already done there is probably a zero percent success rate for any MC. In addition, I believe that they make the situation worse because they encourage the "standing spouse" to divulge all their thoughts and feelings which comes across as pursuing behavior.

When one person wants out and one person wants to keep things together, overt pursuit is the enemy.

Nothing she says is a final pronouncement, nothing she says is now and forever. If you treat it that way you make everything worse for both of you.

Originally Posted by McRamone
Also, I'm not dating and I haven't agreed to any with her.
IMO don't even discuss this. You are both free to do whatever you want while separated. She will lie anyways so don't even waste a breath on it.

Originally Posted by McRamone
Also, She did all her own legwork, got her own place, coordinate all her own everything. But it sounds I can't support her decision in any way?
Your attitude should be I think this is a good idea because we BOTH need time to think about what we want moving forward.

Originally Posted by McRamone
On her feelings of privacy. I get that you think it's rubbish steve, but if I say that to her ...is that me dismissing her feelings about it? And these feelings are from way before the 'incident" Some of which I contributed to.
You can understand why she's upset just don't let her flip the script on what she did that you discovered. Once trust is lost it is hard to get back.

McRamone #2926314 11/12/21 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
I know I'm on moderation and it's no fun
. Moderators are volunteers. Just be patient and keep posting. You will be off moderation soon.

Quote
I am confused. Many people have said that I can't tell my wife not to move or or tell her to move out.
Both of these are attempting to control her behavior. Boundaries, I statements and actions are a better way for you to behave.

I can tell you to stop posting. How much control over you do I have? (That is an attempt at controlling you)
If I decide you are not worth my time, I can stop posting to you. (That is my boundary) I can state it to you, or I can just take the action and stop posting to you.

See the difference?


Quote
But wouldn't the same also apply to parameters on living apart? I was not the one saying 3 months - she was.
Set her free. Do not agree to anything that controls you. RIGHT NOW, she needs time and space from you. Lovingly give it to her. Take this time alone to work on you. It is a gift. It is counter-intuitive, but you both need to experience this.


Quote
Also, She did all her own legwork, got her own place, coordinate all her own everything. But it sounds I can't support her decision in any way? Especially when she's telling me what she needs. I only told her to let me know the financial implications because that is important to manage.
You have lots of choices on how to respond. I believe your best option is to enthusiastically support her, even though you do not think it is the best option.

She has to FEEL like she has lost you before anything is going to start getting better.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
LH19 #2926315 11/12/21 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by LH19
Once trust is lost it is hard to get back.
And that is on her by her actions over a long period of time.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Traveler #2926317 11/12/21 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by McRamone
But wouldn't the same also apply to parameters on living apart? I was not the one saying 3 months - she was. I didn't say agree or disagree with that. But if I say no to that, isn't that me trying to control.
Passive - Letting others control you
Aggressive - Controlling others
Assertive - Controlling yourself

Your goal is to be assertive without being aggressive.

I'm confused multiple people said I should tell her NO to any parameters on the separation. Isn't that being 'aggressive'. Telling her she can't move back after 3 months seems controlling.

Now you are saying I shouldn't say anything (which I did all along) or say something like "I can't control when you decide to move back."

So if she wants to have a "date" night once a week, I should say "no." Or should I say something like, "W, I will be at the restaurant at 7 p.m, you are free to join me."





Originally Posted by CWarrior
See above. She controls if she sees the therapist, you control if you see the therapist. It would be controlling if you were to tell her "No, she can't go." It's not controlling for you to say "No, I won't go." Before DB, I didn't recognize how often "Should WE go" was used by me and others as an attempt to exert control. She's separating. Find and show yourself as an individual.

She's separating NOT Divorcing. I know everyone here sees a nail, but this situation is entirely different. She says "H, I think it is important that we continue to see the MC while we are living apart." (This is by the way how many people approach separations like these - I know I can't name other marriage counseling types- but one is pretty famous and his work is based on research) MC isn't like going for a run, it's like clapping. Try to clap with one hand. It's pointless. I'm fairly certain my W knows that I make a choice to show up at the appointment and don't force her to go the appointment.


It sounds like you are telling me not to go. I've read a lot of threads and it seems some advice people give is to insist on going to MC as a part of recon. Is that controlling?

LH19 #2926318 11/12/21 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
That's ok. Just don't try to hold her to it. It it turns into 4,5,6 it doesn't matter because you are too busy kicking a$$ with life and figuring out what you want moving forward.


Again to reiterate, I said nothing when she said 3 months. Okay, I did say it might take longer but that was it.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
I think you should go to MC and observe, listen and validate. You will find out soon enough the following:

I read in a book once that people come to MC for a variety of reasons:

1) Trying to give the appearance that they "tried" when in fact they had already given up. This is public face-saving
2) Trying to help the other person come to terms with the fact that they have decided to leave
3) Trying to get a third party to validate that they are right and the other person is wrong
4) Trying to save their marriage by being willing to work on it.

They said that 95% of the time, one person is coming for reasons 1-3, and the other person is coming for reason 4. When only one person is in, MC has a 0% success rate.

It said that people usually come in about three years too late, when one party is already fully checked out.

It sounds like you're fully in this scenario where you're in group 4 and W is in some combination of groups 1-3. In that scenario, you have almost no chance of success with MC/

I should say we've been in MC for a couple months. My wife did not drop the Dbomb on me. She didn't tell me she's not in love with me. She told me repeatedly - she's loves me and our family, wants to have a great marriage and grow old together. She hasn't used our sessions to tell me she's leaving the marriage nor has she tried to say she was justified in what happened. (I know, I know don't believe what the say except when Sandi's rules tell you to)

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
IMO don't even discuss this. You are both free to do whatever you want while separated. She will lie anyways so don't even waste a breath on it.

Wow...just wow.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Your attitude should be I think this is a good idea because we BOTH need time to think about what we want moving forward.

This I need to do. Thanks for how to phrase it. But I don't know if she's going to believe a sudden [censored] in perspective when I've been saying the opposite.


Thanks, thanks

Ready2Change #2926319 11/12/21 07:28 PM
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Quote
I can tell you to stop posting. How much control over you do I have? (That is an attempt at controlling you)
If I decide you are not worth my time, I can stop posting to you. (That is my boundary) I can state it to you, or I can just take the action and stop posting to you.

See the difference?

I did the last night. We we talking and she started to raise her voice. I told her that I wasn't going to have her raise her voice at me and me and left.

Quote
You have lots of choices on how to respond. I believe your best option is to enthusiastically support her, even though you do not think it is the best option.

She has to FEEL like she has lost you before anything is going to start getting better.

This feels more difficult because my initial approach wasn't this. Though I agree.



P.S I was trying to do quote blocks and I think I messed up and used your name for another person. Sorry. I have a little knowledge of html and it's a bad thing.

McRamone #2926320 11/12/21 07:47 PM
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Just journal and doing reading. I wrote a long post but it got deleted.

For GAL, I do yoga 2X week, I ride my bike 3X week, I enjoy cooking as a hobby, I regularly get out of the house by myself to go shopping, etc. I just ordered a new treadmill. I am a runner and have done 7 marathons so this isn't new, but had to get rid of my old one a few years ago.
I regularly go to concerts with family, friends or by myself. I love live music...in fact my screen name is for my favorite band. I'm teaching my old how to drive and play video games with my youngest.
I'm not spiritual so church isn't really my thang.

Looking at the 37 rules/ I'm doing pretty good on a lot of them.

some I'm confused and I'm confused

Quote
5. Don't talk about the future.
I do need information as is relates to finances.

Quote
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points".
- I bought her something for her BDay and flowers (from our sons), I also got flowers on Anniversary. XMAS seems like a trap.

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9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better. -
what if she wants to schedule dates? Say no?

Quote
11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
- she says she loves me way more that I say it back to her. Do I pull a Han Solo and say "I know." How to respond?

Quote
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)
so this takes patient on your behalf. What if she wants to talk...which she does. Just say no. Same goes for the separation. I guess

Quote
23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
- this is what I was talking about the privacy thing.


Sorry for flooding the board. This hard stuff

Ready2Change #2926321 11/12/21 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by McRamone
I know I'm on moderation and it's no fun
. Moderators are volunteers. Just be patient and keep posting. You will be off moderation soon.
YUP - and I have already asked for you to be released as I will be away for the weekend so I am hoping the administrator gets to that as it is out of my control now.

Last edited by Cadet; 11/12/21 07:57 PM.

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Originally Posted by Cadet
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by McRamone
I know I'm on moderation and it's no fun
. Moderators are volunteers. Just be patient and keep posting. You will be off moderation soon.
YUP - and I have already asked for you to be released as I will be away for the weekend so I am hoping the administrator gets to that as it is out of my control now.

Thank you!!. Regardless it is appreciated

McRamone #2926323 11/12/21 08:18 PM
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M,

You get lots of different advice on this board. Some people give cookie cutter advice based on MWD's book. I tend to give advice based on the situation. Your situations as I said seems to be different and your W doesn't have two feet out the door. That's why in your case IMO MC is a good idea as long as you feel she is working on repairing the marriage. If you sense she is just going through the motions to check the "we tried MC box" then its best to terminate the sessions.

Having said all that separation and affairs are typically a stepping stone to divorce so how you handle the separation IMO is going to be crucial. As for accepting dates I would say you should accept some and decline some stating you are sorry you have plans. You want her to wonder where you stand.

Relationship and attraction are about value. People who jump through hoops for you are not valuable and are therefore not attractive. You value people who are confident and self-sufficient, and that you feel you need to work to get. When you get attention from those people you feel good about yourself.

McRamone #2926324 11/12/21 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by MCRamone
What if she wants to talk...which she does. Just say no. Same goes for the separation. I guess
If she wants to talk, say no?! That would be AGGRESSIVE--controlling her. If she wants to talk, let her. There's a thread here on active listening and validation. There's also a short video by Brene Brown on Empathy. These are great ways to build rapport. "I get you're angry about that." "I understand you'd like to continue to see the dog even after we separate." She probably does this all day as a therapist, lol. Skip making any commitments or emoting. You can do that another day when you're well-rested and have had time to reflect on what she's said and perhaps pass it by the board if you're uncertain.


Originally Posted by McRamone
She's separating NOT Divorcing. I know everyone here sees a nail, but this situation is entirely different.
I don't see a nail at all. My situation (separated long-term GF) and Steve's situation (wife) both ended in reconciliation. Setting healthy boundaries and self-differentiation were important steps.

McRamone #2926325 11/12/21 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
MC is a good idea as long as you feel she is working on repairing the marriage. If you sense she is just going through the motions to check the "we tried MC box" then its best to terminate the sessions.
During the, "I love you, but I need time apart" period we went to MC. During that series of visits, she vented about my past wrongs, and I had few opportunities to speak. When the MC gave advice that involved returning, she'd disagree or agree then change her mind after the session. When the MC gave advice about separating, she'd readily agree and adopt it. That MC was a useless experience from the purpose of R, and our eventual reconciliation came long after we stopped MC.

Our second round of MC was after she committed to the relationship again. We both talked and listened about problems we were each facing and tried to work towards common solutions.

The general advice is that MC is useful if and only if she's committed to the relationship. Is her focus on venting or getting to happy? Is a fair percentage of the session focused on what she's doing wrong and is she making changes to address those? Does she jump on advice that's pro-marriage or jump on advice that's anti-marriage? You're there. These are some factors to consider in whether continued MC would be more helpful or a waste of effort to harmful to your relationship.

If you have anger to work through about the affair, IC can help. Terms you set after her unfaithfulness should be about self-protection, trust, and respect--not a way to lash out in anger.

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Originally Posted by CWarrior
Our second round of MC was after she committed to the relationship again. We both talked and listened about problems we were each facing and tried to work towards common solutions.

The general advice is that MC is useful if and only if she's committed to the relationship. Is her focus on venting or getting to happy? Is a fair percentage of the session focused on what she's doing wrong and is she making changes to address those? Does she jump on advice that's pro-marriage or jump on advice that's anti-marriage? You're there. These are some factors to consider in whether continued MC would be more helpful or a waste of effort to harmful to your relationship.

Great food for thought. Unfortunately, I see a little bit of both. I do sense that I am being hammered by the MC and my wife more than she it. We tend to talk about what I'm doing wrong because I have been resistant to the ideas.

In her mind, she's committed and is making changes. But they aren't always in a way that I see them. Then she gets frustrated.

The hard part is that since my wife is in the mental health field her and the MC get along well and talk about other aspects of the field.

I'm not sure what you mean by anti-marriage advice. Can you give examples? the MC certainly doesn't encourage the 'you need to be happy' at whatever the cost type of advice.

McRamone #2926327 11/12/21 09:28 PM
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McRamone, do not confuse a WAS wanting to do MC with a that wants to reconcile. I gave you reasons that WAS will agree or even suggest MC. No WAW that wants to separate is trying to reconcile even if it's their idea to do MC.

I think your biggest issue is trying to decide what to do based on what is likely to please her. That is a recipe for disaster. You go live your life, and be busy GAL. If she wants a date night, go sometimes, other times be busy. Stop worrying so much and her and what action is "best". That's likely how you got into this situation. And it is yet another sign of Nice Guy Syndrome. "If I agree to x then she will like me!" Liking you and respecting you are different animals. Go for respect first


M(53), W(54),D(19)
M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
Ring and Piecing since March 2018
McRamone #2926328 11/12/21 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
On her feelings of privacy. I get that you think it's rubbish steve, but if I say that to her ...is that me dismissing her feelings about it? And these feelings are from way before the 'incident" Some of which I contributed to.

I never said to say it to her. In fact I think I specifically said I'm not saying to say it to her. But yes it is rubbish for anyone to suggest snooping on your spouse is worse than cheating on them. Or on the same level. Or even remotely in the same ballpark!!


M(53), W(54),D(19)
M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
Ring and Piecing since March 2018
McRamone #2926330 11/12/21 10:49 PM
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Hi McRamone,

My two cents-- I would keep with the MC. What's the down side? She says she wants to do it. I think the biggest reason people recommend against it if both parties don't have the same goal in mind (a stronger M) is that it sets up false hope/expectations for the LBS. I think as long as you can keep your expectations in check, there isn't a down side to MC for you. You will have to know, though, that there is a decent chance she's pursuing this so that she can check the box of "we tried everything." (I guess I don't think that is the end of the world, anyway. If she wants to D, she'll D you, regardless... it just helps soothe her guilt. Though on the other side, you refusing MC also helps soothe her guilt, so you're kind of in a no-win situation.) Just keep a close eye on how you feel and your own boundaries. For instance, perhaps a boundary for you would be switching the conversation thread in MC from "how can we make this work" to "what would a D look like for us"-- this was a boundary for me generally, not talking with my H about his fantasy D scenarios.

Going on weekly dates with her-- again, what's the harm as long as you don't have any expectations? If you can't control your expectations, then I would avoid, or at least avoid some, like if you are really nervous or notice that you are starting to have expectations around an upcoming date. Just don't imagine that she's going to suddenly fall back in love with you through a few dates.

In/re parameters around her moving out-- she said she wants to and has figured it all out, right? Okay! I think here you go with the flow. As everyone above has said, you can't control what she does anyway. I would also think that her background has something to do with her direction here and maybe she is not a typical WW just looking for an excuse to chase the highs of her infatuation/AP. My understanding is that a structured separation where each party agrees not to date other people, to stay in MC, and to have weekly 1-1 time is a pretty standard approach when the emotions of one or both people are running so high that it makes working on the R when living together impossible. Again, to me this goes back to managing expectations. You want to stand for the M-- don't date. But don't expect her to hold to the same rules. She may, she may not and you have to be okay with that. She may use up all her free time texting with her previous friend or finding another one. (This, by the way, was why i refused to a structured separation with my H, who wanted to live in the basement for 3 months and then see where we were. To me, I knew there was zero chance he wouldn't be in touch with his AP during that time, and I had a hard boundary around him actually leaving-- that would have been it for me.) You need to do some hard thinking about what you are okay with and what you're not okay with. For instance, if you find out it was a physical A-- would that change things for you? If she says she isn't going to date and then does during this S, how will you feel?

In the end, this S may be the first step towards D and you'll never live under the same roof again-- but you are going to have to learn to be okay with that since there is nothing you can do. Her choices. You control you-- so my advice here would be work as hard as you can on detaching, keep up the GAL, and work on understanding that you're going to be okay no matter what happens. Releasing the pressure on her should help a lot. If she is parsing out everything you say to the degree you're indicating like with the comments regarding whether or not you were truly supportive of her moving out, you probably will benefit a lot by having some time apart from each other.

Hang in there. I think you are in pretty good shape, TBH.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
McRamone #2926331 11/12/21 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by LH19
You get lots of different advice on this board. Some people give cookie cutter advice based on MWD's book. I tend to give advice based on the situation.
LH19 has a great skill at remembering all the details about a poster.

I tend to remember the big picture items like : You are new here and on moderation. You are the lawyer about my age. Your W is in the mental health field. You have two children, but did not tell us their ages or what the parenting arrangements will look like. Your wife is moving out. You want to attract her back. You don't know how.

I then focus on the things that stands out to me in the last post.

So here, the words in bold stand out to me as areas you can reflect on and give my 2 cents:

Originally Posted by McRamone
I do sense that I am being hammered by the MC and my wife more than she is. We tend to talk about what I'm doing wrong because I have been resistant to the ideas.
Are you doing something wrong? Or maybe that is just her opinion. Why are you resistant? Maybe resistance is the proper thing.

Quote
In her mind, she's committed and is making changes. But they aren't always in a way that I see them. Then she gets frustrated.
Sounds Like you are a good listener and understand how she is feeling at that moment. In your mind is it OK for her to be frustrated? Do you accept her frustration?


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
LH19 #2926332 11/13/21 01:57 AM
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McRamone,

If your two sons are teens and your W plans to move out this week, have either or both of you communicated that to them? If so, what did you say and how did they react?

You said your W has a place...is she renting an apartment, staying with family/friends?

Your an L and have consulted with a family law L in town...what impacts do her moving out without a formal separation agreement have? Are your sons staying with you 100%, or going back and forth?

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by McRamone
I am an L. My wife is a psychiatrist.
This will be interesting. We typically(99%) recommend getting legal advise and getting into IC.
I had the same thought.

Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by McRamone
But wouldn't the same also apply to parameters on living apart? I was not the one saying 3 months - she was.
That's ok. Just don't try to hold her to it. It it turns into 4,5,6 it doesn't matter because you are too busy kicking a$$ with life and figuring out what you want moving forward.
To me the thing about the "3 months" is your expectations, as you have absolutely no control over it. It's quite possible she's telling you "it's only 3 months" and "it's a separation, not a D" to soften the blow, and it's quite possible the 3 months turns into 6 month or a year or a D. To LH's point, make sure you're not hung up on the timeline sitting at home checking days off on a calendar and don't let it become a set back if after 3 months she says 6 months or D...go out and use that time to improve yourself and live life to its fullest.

Originally Posted by McRamone
This is already being done. I do yoga 2x week, I ride my bike 3Xweek, I’m getting my new treadmill soon. I to go IC. I have a couple of hobbies- cooking, collecting, etc. I go to concerts with friends (or myself). I am fully engaged with both sons (as much as the parent of teens can be.) Teaching my oldest how to drive (Watch out for that tree!)
This is all great stuff. It sounds like you're doing pretty well in this area already. Keep it up and put it in overdrive.

It does seem like your sitch is a bit different than others in that she was remorseful about the affair and may not be in a current one, you sound stronger than others and aren't begging and pleading, she's telling you she loves you and your family and just needs some space, she's pursuing MC and possibly dates(?). So I hope you're in a better situation than others. That said, lots of folks on here claim their sitch is different and then it isn't, so the key is to not pressure her and instead focus on you and your sons. Hope for the best but prep yourself for the worst.

Last edited by BL42; 11/13/21 02:03 AM.

Me:39 Ex-W:37
M:7 T: 9
S:6 D:3
BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20
OM1 affair ends: May '20
W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20
W files for D: Jul20
OM2 confirmed: 9/2020
Divorced: May '21
McRamone #2926333 11/13/21 03:45 AM
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Man this is hard.

Ready. Say you are a Broncos fan and we got something.

Funny. She is not a therapist. She works in a different setting but it requires a lot of empathy. She is very good at her job.

So Steve. You think she is a WAS? I don’t know if she quite fits. I realize that most people come along here in worse shape in their circumstances. Which I why I wondered if this was even the right place. I get the feeling maybe I’m not being clear enough.

There is no active A. (That I know. I know, I know she could be lying) but no reason to think so.

I also disagree about me trying to please here. I do thing mostly because I want (for example I like cooking dinner for the boys and always have before this current mess) or need to. I read the Nice Guy book years ago. He has some good ideas but unfortunately it gets lost in his presentation. IMO Also. I have no trouble asking for what I need.


May. Nice to get a female perspective. No offense dudes.
Good questions. I’m trying to tamper expectations.


Actually she hasn’t moved out yet. She spends some time at her apt but hasn’t told me she does. Not sure why. Kids are staying with me in the house no nesting.


I’m still concerned that everything is to soften the blow. I brought that up to her and she excoriated me for saying that. She said if she was done, she’d just be done. Of course this is the same person who lied to me so there is that.


Well go to get up early. I’m trying a spin? Class. Then taking my son driving then watch my college team. Then Hockey.

McRamone #2926334 11/13/21 08:42 AM
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M,

As I’ve said before I think you’re situation is different but the DB concepts are still in play here. The fact that she’s had an affair and is asking to separate should not be taken lightly.

At this point I wouldn’t put much stock in anything she says right now because she likely doesn’t know what she wants right now. My guess is she has lost attraction for you and is questioning if she sees a happy future together. Affairs are like cocaine and she is probably questioning why she doesn’t get the same feeling with you that she had during the affair.

How you act during this can and most likely determine the outcome. Your GAL for tomorrow is good. Keep it up.

LH19 #2926335 11/13/21 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by LH19
M,

As I’ve said before I think you’re situation is different but the DB concepts are still in play here. The fact that she’s had an affair and is asking to separate should not be taken lightly.

At this point I wouldn’t put much stock in anything she says right now because she likely doesn’t know what she wants right now. My guess is she has lost attraction for you and is questioning if she sees a happy future together. Affairs are like cocaine and she is probably questioning why she doesn’t get the same feeling with you that she had during the affair.

How you act during this can and most likely determine the outcome. Your GAL for tomorrow is good. Keep it up.

I completely agree. This situation seems a bit different. But at the same time she had an affair and is leaving. I almost want to say she seem maybe a bit more honest, or upfront about what she’s thinking, but boy that’s a dangerous sentence to write let alone think. Maybe she’s still waffling? Idk I can’t put my finger on it.

I also agree with affairs becoming addictive and easier to fall into. Remember how it felt to fall into love. Or puppy love? The newness of it? How great it was….

I think getting a life could be more important than you than you know. Becoming, fun, busy, carefree, exciting, and mysterious could be what the doctor ordered. Yet you still have to do it for just you and it has to be genuine.


Me: 40
EX:37
Together 17 years
Married 16 years
5 kids, 20,18,15,14,11

BD 03/06/20, divorced 12/23/21
McRamone #2926338 11/13/21 11:10 PM
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Its funny. Outside of the presence of my W. I am confident, carefree, etc. I went to the gym for spin then yoga. It was great. Then I get home and boom. Confidence is shot.

It’s funny. I hear everyone say “don’t believe what she says”. But she says stuff like ILY, I still find you attractive, I want to be married, I was happy with our marriage, I will do what you want if you just ask. It’s not the usual venom.

Some people have made comments on her betrayal. We’ve had talks about this. She says “it didn’t seem real, “it wasn’t real life,” “you are my real life and what’s important” “it wasn’t real feelings” etc. I know. I know. Just words. But hard to dismiss

McRamone #2926339 11/14/21 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
Its funny. Outside of the presence of my W. I am confident, carefree, etc. I went to the gym for spin then yoga. It was great. Then I get home and boom. Confidence is shot.

It’s funny. I hear everyone say “don’t believe what she says”. But she says stuff like ILY, I still find you attractive, I want to be married, I was happy with our marriage, I will do what you want if you just ask. It’s not the usual venom.

Some people have made comments on her betrayal. We’ve had talks about this. She says “it didn’t seem real, “it wasn’t real life,” “you are my real life and what’s important” “it wasn’t real feelings” etc. I know. I know. Just words. But hard to dismiss


Did anything besides the affair kill your confidence? Where you losing it prior to all this?

It is hard to dismiss it, but believe her actions over her words every time. My ex did the same thing while living with her paramour.

It’s possible she’s being genuine on some level. It’s also possible she’s keeping you on the line in case whatever plan she has doesn’t work out.

I also would look into your states laws about alimony. Here where I am, if you have an affair and leave you aren’t entitled to alimony. However if you even attempt to fix the marriage and than back out there’s an argument to be made the marriage failed for another reason and you could be on the hook for it. Just keep that in mind and look into whatever laws you need to, or ask your lawyer.

Please keep posting too. And feel free to maybe start journaling here too. Tells us more about you getting a life and enjoying yourself.


Me: 40
EX:37
Together 17 years
Married 16 years
5 kids, 20,18,15,14,11

BD 03/06/20, divorced 12/23/21
JosephS #2926340 11/14/21 12:37 AM
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Originally Posted by JosephS
Did anything besides the affair kill your confidence? Where you losing it prior to all this?

It is hard to dismiss it, but believe her actions over her words every time. My ex did the same thing while living with her paramour.

It’s possible she’s being genuine on some level. It’s also possible she’s keeping you on the line in case whatever plan she has doesn’t work out.

I also would look into your states laws about alimony. Here where I am, if you have an affair and leave you aren’t entitled to alimony. However if you even attempt to fix the marriage and than back out there’s an argument to be made the marriage failed for another reason and you could be on the hook for it. Just keep that in mind and look into whatever laws you need to, or ask your lawyer.

Please keep posting too. And feel free to maybe start journaling here too. Tells us more about you getting a life and enjoying yourself.


My confidence was probably close to an all time high right before it happened. I mean. Job was going well, etc. however, I do have confidence issues around my teeth. They aren’t in great shape.

She seems genuine but that and a quarter will buy you a gum ball. There is zero plan with the guy. For reasons, I’m not ready to discuss yet.

Not worried about Alimony really. She makes about 5k more than I.


I’m tired from today. Tonight both my hockey team and CFB team play at the same time. Might go to the sports bar.

McRamone #2926342 11/14/21 03:15 AM
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McRamone, obviously I'm not helping here. You seem perturbed by my observations. And I'm not sure you are open to the ideas presented here. For instance, you question her being a walkaway..... Even though she's pushing for a separation. One thing someone told me early on in my sitch has always stuck with me. Wives do not need their own place to find themselves or to.work on the marriage. They need their own place to sleep with other men.

Good luck. I sincerely hope it all works out for you. That's why I post here to other LBSs. But I do think you are being a bit obtuse. Maybe it is because the truth is too hard to face? My final thought for you to mull over.

Last edited by SteveLW; 11/14/21 03:16 AM.

M(53), W(54),D(19)
M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
Ring and Piecing since March 2018
McRamone #2926343 11/14/21 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
Its funny. Outside of the presence of my W. I am confident, carefree, etc. I went to the gym for spin then yoga. It was great. Then I get home and boom. Confidence is shot.

It’s funny. I hear everyone say “don’t believe what she says”. But she says stuff like ILY, I still find you attractive, I want to be married, I was happy with our marriage, I will do what you want if you just ask. It’s not the usual venom.

Some people have made comments on her betrayal. We’ve had talks about this. She says “it didn’t seem real, “it wasn’t real life,” “you are my real life and what’s important” “it wasn’t real feelings” etc. I know. I know. Just words. But hard to dismiss
So early on in my situation my ex and I separated for 3 months. We still went out on dates, had sex and she would talk about the future like fixing up the house etc. Looking back at it I can she was trying living alone on for size. We did get back together for a year and a half until om2 came along. I will say again you have a good chance here IMO but I get the impression from your posts that you are clingy and needy. Initially she is going to to enjoy being away from you and this could drag on for awhile. Again what you want is for her to not be sure where she stands with you.

McRamone #2926347 11/14/21 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
Great food for thought. Unfortunately, I see a little bit of both. I do sense that I am being hammered by the MC and my wife more than she it. We tend to talk about what I'm doing wrong because I have been resistant to the ideas.

Seems like you have a great opportunity here to identify what things you need to work on for 180s. I would encourage you to not be defensive and resist. Listen to what your MC is saying with an open mind and work on fixing them. Reading through your thread, your W seems to be sincere in making the marriage work. However, you need understand that it is not easy for her to do that given her current frame of mind.

WAS have a very different perspective on things and it is often disconnected from reality. That should not discourage you from learning what you did wrong and fix that.

MLCxH #2926348 11/14/21 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by MLCxH
[quote=McRamone]

I do sense that I am being hammered by the MC and my wife more than she it. We tend to talk about what I'm doing wrong because I have been resistant to the ideas.

Seems like you have a great opportunity here to identify what things you need to work on for 180s. I would encourage you to not be defensive and resist. Listen to what your MC is saying with an open mind and work on fixing them. Reading through your thread, your W seems to be sincere in making the marriage work. However, you need understand that it is not easy for her to do that given her current frame of mind. It is also possible whatever you do now may not be sufficient for her to reconcile but you only control you.

WAS have a very different perspective on things and it is often disconnected from reality. That should not discourage you from learning what you did wrong and fix that.

Last edited by MLCxH; 11/14/21 06:48 PM.
LH19 #2926349 11/15/21 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by LH19
So early on in my situation my ex and I separated for 3 months. We still went out on dates, had sex and she would talk about the future like fixing up the house etc. Looking back at it I can she was trying living alone on for size. We did get back together for a year and a half until om2 came along. I will say again you have a good chance here IMO but I get the impression from your posts that you are clingy and needy. Initially she is going to to enjoy being away from you and this could drag on for awhile. Again what you want is for her to not be sure where she stands with you.

Interesting insight. I didn’t know that about your situation. How did you feel during thev3 months? After? We’re you blind sided by OM2? Did you make changes during that time? Did she?

We actually lived apart for our first year of marriage due to us finishing our respective graduate degrees. Seems like a lifetime ago.


Interesting on your observation about me being clingy and needy. We had this very discussion with put MC. She said I was the opposite of needy. I get that is one opinion and I’m not saying you are wrong.

I think I do feel needy. One thing that was brought up in MC is my not asking for what I need. Like I wouldn’t ask my wife if she wanted to watch a movie, I wouldn’t ask my wife to put down her phone during a conversation, I wouldn’t ask her to take a walk Or wouldn’t necessarily initiate physical contact. I would instead get mad that she wouldn’t do those things on her own or know I needed them.

My wife and MC told me I need to ask for those things -explicitly. But now I feel if I do I be pathetic and it’s counter to the ideas here.

SteveLW #2926350 11/15/21 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by SteveLW
McRamone, obviously I'm not helping here. You seem perturbed by my observations. And I'm not sure you are open to the ideas presented here. For instance, you question her being a walkaway..... Even though she's pushing for a separation. One thing someone told me early on in my sitch has always stuck with me. Wives do not need their own place to find themselves or to.work on the marriage. They need their own place to sleep with other men.

Good luck. I sincerely hope it all works out for you. That's why I post here to other LBSs. But I do think you are being a bit obtuse. Maybe it is because the truth is too hard to face? My final thought for you to mull over.

I’m sorry you feel that way. I get that you only see things a certain way and are trying to help people. But you are only focusing on one thing. You may say I’m ignoring the one thing.

I’m not sure where you get I’m not open to ideas. I am taking the GAL to heart, I am following Sandi’s rules, I am taking what people are saying. I read DB. I have not begged her not to move out, I haven’t pleaded with her or even tried to reason with her. Not sure what more you want me to do.

But yes. If you are going to insult me and my partner instead of helping. There are plenty of other good folks here.

Last edited by McRamone; 11/15/21 04:27 AM.
McRamone #2926353 11/15/21 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
[quote=LH19]

So early on in my situation my ex and I separated for 3 months. We still went out on dates, had sex and she would talk about the future like fixing up the house etc. Looking back at it I can she was trying living alone on for size. We did get back together for a year and a half until om2 came along. I will say again you have a good chance here IMO but I get the impression from your posts that you are clingy and needy. Initially she is going to to enjoy being away from you and this could drag on for awhile. Again what you want is for her to not be sure where she stands with you.

Originally Posted by McRamone
How did you feel during thev3 months?
Like my entire world had been torn apart and I was about to lose everything I had worked for in life.
Originally Posted by McRamone
After?
The year and a half $ucked. I could tell she always had one foot out the door. My saving grace was I had my kids to focus on.
Originally Posted by McRamone
We’re you blind sided by OM2?
No. She wasn't very sly. My daughter's friend with the single good looking dad all of a sudden became her favorite of my daughter's friends.
Originally Posted by McRamone
Did you make changes during that time?
Yep. I followed the DB principles and was really good at it. Also read just about every book on attraction and relationship I could get my hands on.
Originally Posted by McRamone
Did she?
Oh she changed alright. Decided now was "her" time and she needed to do what was right for her.
Originally Posted by McRamone
Interesting on your observation about me being clingy and needy. We had this very discussion with put MC. She said I was the opposite of needy. I get that is one opinion and I’m not saying you are wrong.
So here is a quote directly from you in your thread. "So this created a bad dynamic. I was looking for reassurances in my love language (touch) did she wanted to be in a marriage that she still cared and she remorseful. She did that for a little bit but thought that I wasn’t responding to it so decided to not continue it. Then I’d get upset she was pulling away when I needed her more."
Originally Posted by McRamone
I think I do feel needy. One thing that was brought up in MC is my not asking for what I need. Like I wouldn’t ask my wife if she wanted to watch a movie, I wouldn’t ask my wife to put down her phone during a conversation, I wouldn’t ask her to take a walk Or wouldn’t necessarily initiate physical contact. I would instead get mad that she wouldn’t do those things on her own or know I needed them.
So this is interesting because you also quoted this in your thread when Steve suggest you had NGS. " I also disagree about me trying to please here. I do thing mostly because I want (for example I like cooking dinner for the boys and always have before this current mess) or need to. I read the Nice Guy book years ago. He has some good ideas but unfortunately it gets lost in his presentation. IMO Also. I have no trouble asking for what I need."
Originally Posted by McRamone
My wife and MC told me I need to ask for those things -explicitly. But now I feel if I do I be pathetic and it’s counter to the ideas here.
So what types of things do you want to ask her right now?

LH19 #2926354 11/15/21 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
I think I do feel needy. One thing that was brought up in MC is my not asking for what I need. Like I wouldn’t ask my wife if she wanted to watch a movie, I wouldn’t ask my wife to put down her phone during a conversation, I wouldn’t ask her to take a walk Or wouldn’t necessarily initiate physical contact. I would instead get mad that she wouldn’t do those things on her own or know I needed them.
Originally Posted by LH21
So this is interesting because you also quoted this in your thread when Steve suggest you had NGS. " I also disagree about me trying to please here. I do thing mostly because I want (for example I like cooking dinner for the boys and always have before this current mess) or need to. I read the Nice Guy book years ago. He has some good ideas but unfortunately it gets lost in his presentation. IMO Also. I have no trouble asking for what I need."

Observed the same.
What you wrote MR is basically the definition of a "covert contract" so that should be a reason to at least revisit "No More Mr NG". There is even a podcast on CCs that you could listen to.


Me: 34
Stbxw: 30
D:5 D:3
Mini bd: May/June 2019
Married: Aug 2019
BD: 6th Dec 2019
OM Confirmed: Feb 2020
March 2020: I filed for D
Waiting for D to be finalized and W to move out end of January 2021
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Originally Posted by McRamone
So this is interesting because you also quoted this in your thread when Steve suggest you had NGS. " I also disagree about me trying to please her. I do thing mostly because I want (for example I like cooking dinner for the boys and always have before this current mess) or need to. I read the Nice Guy book years ago. He has some good ideas but unfortunately it gets lost in his presentation. IMO Also. I have no trouble asking for what I need."

2 things can be true. I don't do things to please her. I make dinner 3-5X a week. Why? I like to cook and I'm pretty good at it. I'm the more involved parent with school. Why? She had a job where she had to go in everyday during the height of covid and I have some flexibility to help with their schooling. I do my own laundry. Why? I need clean clothes. I clean up the kitchen and doing the dishes. Why? I like clean kitchen. So yes a lot of what I do is not to please her.


yet, I am not perfect and we are (were) in a relationship so there is some give and take. What I do, do is give her time to decompress after work without hovering over her.

Also, I have told her in the past explicitly what I need - 1 one 1 time, sex, physical touch, going for a walk, etc. The question always boils down to what I need in the moment.


I guess I should be clear - when I said I had no trouble asking for what I need- I meant outside of the marriage, n other social settings, work, etc.

Not going to read that "Mr. NG" book again. (it's not DB) Glover's work is not peer reviewed, not researched and no basis in actual psychology. My impression of him is too tainted.

I watched the video someone posted here about marrying the wrong person. That was very insightful.

Originally Posted by McRamone
My wife and MC told me I need to ask for those things -explicitly. But now I feel if I do I be pathetic and it’s counter to the ideas here.
So what types of things do you want to ask her right now?

Ask her for what I need in the moment. It can as small as a hug. (I really cringe at this) or bigger like having a nice dinner out.

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For now Mac I would table the things you need from her and focus on you and the kids.

You want to give her as much space as possible right now.

LH19 #2926357 11/15/21 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by LH19
For now Mac I would table the things you need from her and focus on you and the kids.

You want to give her as much space as possible right now.

That is one of her main complaints that I don't do that. I can't tell if it's a 180 to do that or not.


-------------------

Journaling....

Well it happened. She left last night to go to her new apt. it was not unexpected but it was difficult. She initially only brought enough clothes for a few days while we figure out logistics. Normally, I'd try to read into this...but not this time.


We had a small talk before she left. She said this was very hard on her. I said that I understand that it must be really hard to feel like you have to make that decision. She reiterated that she loved me and though this would help a lot. I didn't agree or disagree just basically said that I want the best outcome(I don't know if this was the right thing to say)

There was no begging, no pleading. I was very calm and collected. But it stung like a B.

I really wanted to text her later in the night but resisted and she didn't reach out to me. So it begins.

I didn't sleep well and my mind raced. I felt like all the worst stuff was happening. Like she immediately hooked up with some rando.

She wants me to come over to see the place tonight. I don't know how I feel about that.

It [censored] because I want to try to stay positive, but everyone says don't focus on that. Instead focus on yourself. I can only distract myself so much.

Last edited by McRamone; 11/15/21 03:39 PM.
McRamone #2926358 11/15/21 04:00 PM
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McRamone,
Originally Posted by McRamone
Well it happened. She left last night to go to her new apt. it was not unexpected but it was difficult.
Sorry man. That's tough. Even though you know it's coming, it's hard.

Originally Posted by McRamone
She said this was very hard on her.
It probably was. My ExW made it seem easy at times, whereas I was visably struggling, but then I'd get insights here that it was a lot tougher on her than she showed. Didn't change the result for me/us, but I don't know maybe there's a bit of solace knowing it's not so easy on the other end either.

Originally Posted by McRamone
I said that I understand that it must be really hard to feel like you have to make that decision. She reiterated that she loved me and though this would help a lot. I didn't agree or disagree just basically said that I want the best outcome(I don't know if this was the right thing to say)

There was no begging, no pleading. I was very calm and collected. But it stung like a B.
Sounds like you handled it fairly well considering. Stayed fairly strong on the outside, even if it hurt underneath.

Originally Posted by McRamone
I really wanted to text her later in the night but resisted and she didn't reach out to me. So it begins.
Good job resisting. Keep it up. If you reach out you'll attach a glimmer of hope to it and then come down when you don't get the response you want.

Originally Posted by McRamone
I didn't sleep well and my mind raced. I felt like all the worst stuff was happening. Like she immediately hooked up with some rando.
That's understandable. It'll get better over time.

Hate to say this, but it's quite possible it won't be some rando and it's the guy you knew about before or some other person she has waiting in the wings. Some here will say don't snoop, or at least stop snooping when you find evidence of and affair. I don't know the laws where you are, but have you thought about a PI or some sort of proof to see if there's an active affair?

Originally Posted by McRamone
She wants me to come over to see the place tonight. I don't know how I feel about that.
I wouldn't. Will that help your detachment? It's not your responsibility to make her feel better/comfortable with leaving you.

Originally Posted by McRamone
It [censored] because I want to try to stay positive, but everyone says don't focus on that. Instead focus on yourself. I can only distract myself so much.
Easier said than done, but yes...focus on yourself and the kids as much as possible. Doing GAL/getting active, which sounds like you do fairly well, will help keep your mind off it.

Originally Posted by BL42
If your two sons are teens and your W plans to move out this week, have either or both of you communicated that to them? If so, what did you say and how did they react?

You said your W has a place...is she renting an apartment, staying with family/friends?

Your an L and have consulted with a family law L in town...what impacts do her moving out without a formal separation agreement have? Are your sons staying with you 100%, or going back and forth?
I asked you about your sons before but not sure you answered. How are they doing with all this? What's the plan there? I assume if she moved out you talked with them? Are they staying in the house, or swapping back and forth?


Me:39 Ex-W:37
M:7 T: 9
S:6 D:3
BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20
OM1 affair ends: May '20
W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20
W files for D: Jul20
OM2 confirmed: 9/2020
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McRamone #2926359 11/15/21 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
[quote=LH19]For now Mac I would table the things you need from her and focus on you and the kids.

You want to give her as much space as possible right now.

Originally Posted by McRamone
That is one of her main complaints that I don't do that. I can't tell if it's a 180 to do that or not.
I want to clarify, her main complaint is you give her too much space?
Originally Posted by McRamone
Well it happened. She left last night to go to her new apt. it was not unexpected but it was difficult.
M it is understandably difficult and I am sorry you are going through this right now.
Originally Posted by McRamone
She initially only brought enough clothes for a few days while we figure out logistics. Normally, I'd try to read into this...but not this time.
Nothing to see here. The gun just went off for the marathon.
Originally Posted by McRamone
We had a small talk before she left. She said this was very hard on her. I said that I understand that it must be really hard to feel like you have to make that decision.
So this is where you have to be careful. Your response can be construed as a guilt trip. A better response is "I understand this is difficult on you". No implying this is her decision.
Originally Posted by McRamone
I didn't agree or disagree just basically said that I want the best outcome(I don't know if this was the right thing to say)
Depends. What if she thinks the best outcome is divorce?
Originally Posted by McRamone
There was no begging, no pleading. I was very calm and collected. But it stung like a B.
Good. Yeah it's tough.
Originally Posted by McRamone
I really wanted to text her later in the night but resisted and she didn't reach out to me. So it begins.
Contacting her and pursuing her is the same challenge people face if they're trying to quit smoking and sitting in front of a table covered in cigarettes. It's just so easy to do. You know you shouldn't, you know it isn't good for you, but you want to *so badly* that you can convince yourself that it's okay to pursue.

That's what the "my giving her space is allowing her to get over me" argument really is, it's your brain trying to convince you that it's okay to pursue her because that's what you really, really, really want to do.

Originally Posted by McRamone
I didn't sleep well and my mind raced. I felt like all the worst stuff was happening. Like she immediately hooked up with some rando.

Highly doubt that's the case. You will experience catastrophic thinking for awhile.
Originally Posted by McRamone
She wants me to come over to see the place tonight. I don't know how I feel about that.
I would politely decline and tell her you have plans.
Originally Posted by McRamone
It [censored] because I want to try to stay positive, but everyone says don't focus on that.
Who is telling you not to stay positive?
Originally Posted by McRamone
Instead focus on yourself. I can only distract myself so much.
Kids, gym, walks, runs, hobbies, friends, family, NETFLIX, volunteer the list goes on and on.

LH19 #2926360 11/15/21 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by McRamone
It [censored] because I want to try to stay positive, but everyone says don't focus on that.
Who is telling you not to stay positive?

I wasn't complete in my thought. I mean everyone says don't focus on the positive statements she makes like 'I don't' want to be divorced," "We can have a better M," "I love you"

I know to stay positive. I should have written I want to try to read positivity into what she is saying.


Originally Posted by LH19
I want to clarify, her main complaint is you give her too much space?
Her main complaint is that I don't articulate what I need from her. Or I make assumptions about how much space she needs (obviously before the move)


Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by McRamone
I didn't sleep well and my mind raced. I felt like all the worst stuff was happening. Like she immediately hooked up with some rando.

Highly doubt that's the case. You will experience catastrophic thinking for awhile


Depends on you who you talk to here.

Last edited by McRamone; 11/15/21 04:36 PM.
McRamone #2926362 11/15/21 04:54 PM
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Mac,

I have been on these boards for about 7 years. I can only think of two cases where there was absolutely no sign of OP being involved. So the odds are not in your favor but I keep thinking your case may be different.

Did you/do you have access to her phone? Meaning was the password unprotected or you knew it and could go into it whenever you wanted?

Unfortunately words don't mean anything right now. It's hard not to read into them.

LH19 #2926363 11/15/21 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by LH19
Mac,

I have been on these boards for about 7 years. I can only think of two cases where there was absolutely no sign of OP being involved. So the odds are not in your favor but I keep thinking your case may be different.

Did you/do you have access to her phone? Meaning was the password unprotected or you knew it and could go into it whenever you wanted?

Unfortunately words don't mean anything right now. It's hard not to read into them.

Well there was an OP that kicked this whole mess off. So you are on point on that. For various reasons, he is not a long term solution nor is she likely boning him in her new apt. (I know nothing is guaranteed and I could be wrong.) I wish I could say more but there are a whole lot of other considerations that would make that somewhat tricky.

I didn't have access to her phone. it'd be chasing down an endless rabbit hole.


man, I am not doing great today. I just don't understand how we ended up here. I don't understand how she can effectively abandon our kids and then go silent. I just want to stop hurting.

McRamone #2926364 11/15/21 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
I didn't have access to her phone. it'd be chasing down an endless rabbit hole.

Yeah I wouldn't pursue it now but it's a red flag.
Originally Posted by McRamone
man, I am not doing great today.

I am not going to lie this will be the toughest thing you may ever go through. That's why eating right, exercise and sleep are important.
Originally Posted by McRamone
I just don't understand how we ended up here.

When you live with someone, there is a huge motivation to keep the peace. Everyone wants peace in their lives. If you blew up over every little thing that happened between you, you would both be miserable.

As such, you push things down and gloss over them as you live together, and the consequence of that is that resentment builds.

If resentment builds too much over time, eventually it becomes "too much" and people start contemplating an exit from the relationship. During this period, the relationship is really "on trial" but the other party is usually totally unaware of it.

Once the trial is over and the person has more or less resolved to leave, you're on the tail end of a year’s long process. It goes "things are overall good, but this stuff is annoying" -> "These things are really annoying but not bad enough that I want to leave" -> "These things are really annoying and I don't know if I can stay" -> "These things are really annoying and now I have to get out"

Unfortunately, in many cases the "annoying things" were never even articulated, or if they were, not with enough gravity. Once the "I need to leave" point is reached, whatever those things are get magnified and new ones get invented to help convince the departing partner that they are making the right choice, fort an act in self-reinforcement which sometimes requires lots of fabrication.

Originally Posted by McRamone
I don't understand how she can effectively abandon our kids and then go silent.

She needs time and space to figure things out.

Originally Posted by McRamone
I just want to stop hurting.
The pain will subside with time. Stay strong!

McRamone #2926366 11/15/21 07:31 PM
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Quote
I just don't understand how we ended up here. I don't understand how she can effectively abandon our kids and then go silent.
This will take time to process. You both need time and space to process this.


Originally Posted by McRamone
man, I am not doing great today....I just want to stop hurting.
Sorry man. My recommendation is to find safe times and places to feel, express and release your emotions. If you are anything like the rest of us, there is a lot that has been stuffed down.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
McRamone #2926367 11/15/21 07:49 PM
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[/quote]man, I am not doing great today. I just don't understand how we ended up here. I don't understand how she can effectively abandon our kids and then go silent. I just want to stop hurting.[/quote]

I sure do remember those days distinctly, and I can recall typing that same sentence out almost word for word several times on this board early on in my sitch. It feels like a nightmare you can't wake up from.

The others are correct, you will get past this but it will take time and lots of it.

Something LH says and I absolutely agree with is this... the fastest way to get your WW back is a straight line in the opposite direction.

In other words, your goal should be to make her feel like you are the one dumping her. How do you accomplish this? By getting better in every aspect of your life. Get in the gym and crush your goals. Kill it at work. Eat healthy and meditate. Improve your relationship with your kids. Travel and push yourself outside your comfort zone. Break free from any addictions you might have.

If if you can do those things I've listed above, your W might wonder why in the hell she left a man like you to go live in an apartment, and date men with low integrity who have no issue dating a married woman.

You want to appear like you have had some big epiphany, and that you realize it was her all along that was keeping you from finding YOUR happiness. Now... you don't want to act like some cocky a-hole, but more like someone who is relishing being single and growing into a better version of themselves. Make sense?

I promise a day will come when you will once again smile, and you will realize that everything happens for a reason. Perhaps this will make your marriage stronger one day? Or perhaps you will meet someone much better than your WW and fall in love all over again? Regardless, this is but one chapter in your life, and your story isn't over.

Hang in there.

McRamone #2926368 11/15/21 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
I didn't sleep well and my mind raced.
I strongly suggest speaking with your medical doctor about sleep aids. I had these pills that would put me out within 30 minutes, and I would be out for exactly 8 hours.

I believe MWD talked about the stop sign technique in her book. We can elaborate if needed.

Quote
She wants me to come over to see the place tonight.
Bad idea. The rules have changed. You are not her friend. You are friendly with her. You co-parent with her. She has asked for space. Give her this space and more...much more. Always politely decline. You always have better things planed.

I am not sure how versed you are in all the areas of attraction and seduction, but this is a great time to get yourself more educated. Learn new ways of behaving and interacting with her.

I believe that most new posters do not understand how to be seductive. Check out this post, and specifically counter-intuitive ways to attract:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061094#Post2061094


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Thornton #2926370 11/15/21 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Thornton
Your goal should be to make her feel like you are the one dumping her. You want to appear like you have had some big epiphany, and that you realize it was her all along that was keeping you from finding YOUR happiness. Now... you don't want to act like some cocky a-hole, but more like someone who is relishing being single and growing into a better version of themselves.
These are very wise words.

She has to FEEL like she has made a mistake. She has to FEEL like she has lost you. Until this happens, you will be confused. When it happens, you will know. She will beg you for a second chance. When she does, your best response it make her "Qualify" herself. Lots of time before this happens to get prepared.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Ready2Change #2926389 11/16/21 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by Thornton
Your goal should be to make her feel like you are the one dumping her. You want to appear like you have had some big epiphany, and that you realize it was her all along that was keeping you from finding YOUR happiness. Now... you don't want to act like some cocky a-hole, but more like someone who is relishing being single and growing into a better version of themselves.
These are very wise words.

She has to FEEL like she has made a mistake. She has to FEEL like she has lost you. Until this happens, you will be confused. When it happens, you will know. She will beg you for a second chance. When she does, your best response it make her "Qualify" herself. Lots of time before this happens to get prepared.

So there is where I don't get it. I can't make her FEEL anything. I can only control what I can do. correct? I'm certainly not going to date or meet women in bars. This feels manipulative. Maybe someone can correct me.


============
Journaling.

So she came over last night to have dinner. I realize it's only been one night. I was friendly and upbeat and didn't initiate any substantive conversation. She was in the bedroom collecting things and said,

W - "I didn't sleep well last night"
M- "Oh was it because of the new mattress you are on?"
W- "No" Then she launched into how it affected her. She missed me, missed the kids. etc. I just acknowledge that is was rough. Then made a joke about how I can sleep in a warm room now (she like to keep the windows open...even in winter and it was freezing)

So I think this proves what happened to Thornton. We think they are all happy and excited to start a new chapter without us, but in reality it's hard for them. I'm trying to work on my empathy with how she's feeling.

I find myself getting hung up on the small things too. Like she said at one point that "we were taking a big risk doing this." I really wanted to follow up an ask her what she meant. 'I just said agreed with her.

She also wants to take a tv and a gaming system to her place on Saturday. Then she said they hooked her internet up. At first I was upset because in my mind you don't get a internet contract if you are going to be away for only 3 months, but then I realized in this day and age it's almost impossible to operate without internet at your home. Mind you she saw NONE of this.

I need advice on 2 things.

1- So later on, she talks about how she's coming over to cook dinner on Wednesday. Then she talked about coming over on Saturday. I want to say this to her but wanted to run it by the people here.

1-"if you want to take the kids and have dinner at your place let me know" However, given that you wanted some space, I don't think it's a good idea to keep coming over here." Thoughts?

Admittedly, I'm torn. I would like see her and want her to show I'm changing. But really defeats the point of her moving and I think it could cause me problems.

She was also way more touchy than normal. She grabbed my hand at the table when she was talking to me. When she left, she gave me a hug, a kiss and said ILY.

2- I don't know how to respond. Do I say ILY back when she says it? Do I say nothing? I don't go seeking out hugs/kisses, but I don't want to give her the Heisman- arm straight out BOOM.

Thoughts?


PS. My new treadmill is arriving today or tomorrow. I'm stoked. I haven't had one for a couple of years. And mine was used for more than hanging clothes.

Last edited by McRamone; 11/16/21 04:45 PM.
McRamone #2926390 11/16/21 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
So there is where I don't get it. I can't make her FEEL anything. I can only control what I can do. correct?
Yes and no. If you are out living it up she may feel like she is losing you.

Originally Posted by McRamone
So I think this proves what happened to Thornton. We think they are all happy and excited to start a new chapter without us, but in reality it's hard for them.
This isn't hard for her at all. She knows she can come running home whenever she wants.

Originally Posted by McRamone
I'm trying to work on my empathy with how she's feeling.
Don't waste a second with empathy.

Originally Posted by McRamone
I find myself getting hung up on the small things too. Like she said at one point that "we were taking a big risk doing this." I really wanted to follow up an ask her what she meant. 'I just said agreed with her.
How is it a risk? She loves you and wants to be with you and will be home in three months.

Originally Posted by McRamone
She also wants to take a tv and a gaming system to her place on Saturday. Then she said they hooked her internet up. At first I was upset because in my mind you don't get a internet contract if you are going to be away for only 3 months, but then I realized in this day and age it's almost impossible to operate without internet at your home. Mind you she saw NONE of this.
I'll be shocked if it's 3 months. Who moves out for three months right before Christmas?

Originally Posted by McRamone
1- So later on, she talks about how she's coming over to cook dinner on Wednesday. Then she talked about coming over on Saturday. I want to say this to her but wanted to run it by the people here.

Originally Posted by McRamone
1-"if you want to take the kids and have dinner at your place let me know" However, given that you wanted some space, I don't think it's a good idea to keep coming over here." Thoughts?
How about Can I drop the kids at your place Wednesday? I have plans.

Originally Posted by McRamone
Admittedly, I'm torn. I would like see her and want her to show I'm changing. But really defeats the point of her moving and I think it could cause me problems.
What changes?

Originally Posted by McRamone
She was also way more touchy than normal. She grabbed my hand at the table when she was talking to me. When she left, she gave me a hug, a kiss and said ILY.
She's excited. A 3 month plus vacation from reality.
Originally Posted by McRamone
2- I don't know how to respond. Do I say ILY back when she says it? Do I say nothing? I don't go seeking out hugs/kisses, but I don't want to give her the Heisman- arm straight out BOOM.
Sure say it back if that's how you feel. Feelings are fleeting as DNJ likes to say.

McRamone #2926397 11/16/21 05:54 PM
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[/quote]So there is where I don't get it. I can't make her FEEL anything. I can only control what I can do. correct? I'm certainly not going to date or meet women in bars. This feels manipulative. Maybe someone can correct me.[/quote]

In other words, you can influence how she feels about you by focusing on yourself and your personal growth.

I never said meet up with or date women. I said become a man only a fool would leave. Women are attracted to men like that, your wife included. Think James Bond.

You have to let her go to get her back.

McRamone #2926398 11/16/21 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
I find myself getting hung up on the small things too. Like she said at one point that "we were taking a big risk doing this." I really wanted to follow up an ask her what she meant. 'I just said agreed with her.
I don't see her taking a big risk--you're eagerly waiting to show off changes you're making for her to appreciate. She can cancel the separation for as long as you're delighted for her to return. She's currently in the power position and checking in 2-3x this week.

Originally Posted by McRamone
given that you wanted some space, I don't think it's a good idea to keep coming over here."
I would nix this. If she wanted space on that evening, she wouldn't be asking to come over. It's not your job to enforce her reasons for a separation you don't want and don't support. Does her coming over Wednesday and/or Sunday work for you? Make choices and express them.

Traveler #2926400 11/16/21 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by McRamone
I find myself getting hung up on the small things too. Like she said at one point that "we were taking a big risk doing this." I really wanted to follow up an ask her what she meant. 'I just said agreed with her.
I don't see her taking a big risk--you're eagerly waiting to show off changes you're making for her to appreciate. She can cancel the separation for as long as you're delighted for her to return. She's currently in the power position and checking in 2-3x this week.

Doesn't DB talk about your changes? I'm not eagerly waiting to show of my changes. You act like I'm sitting by the door just waiting. Not the case. I'm trying to live my life. I'm working on them regardless if she comes over 3x week or No times a week.

She knows that she is risking me deciding not to be married anymore. I've made that clear.


Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by McRamone
given that you wanted some space, I don't think it's a good idea to keep coming over here."
I would nix this. If she wanted space on that evening, she wouldn't be asking to come over. It's not your job to enforce her reasons for a separation you don't want and don't support. Does her coming over Wednesday and/or Sunday work for you? Make choices and express them.

Thanks for the insight. I feel like the advice is all over the map here.

McRamone #2926401 11/16/21 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
Doesn't DB talk about your changes? I'm not eagerly waiting to show of my changes.

I feel like the advice is all over the map here.
There are advocates for slightly "softer" and "harder" approaches--but on many points it's cohesive. The goal is to make changes for YOU. In your previous post where you wrote, "I'm torn. I would like to see her and want her to show I'm changing." Been there, done that. Changes made to win someone back tend to be more temporary and tend to generate resentment. So, I'm pointing it out. So you follow the best possible track. The smallest, consistent changes are more meaningful than grand shows that fall apart with anger as soon as her applause doesn't materialize or goes away.

If there's a point where there seems to be disagreement, just ask. (:

McRamone #2926402 11/16/21 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
[quote=CWarrior] Thanks for the insight. I feel like the advice is all over the map here.
Mac there are several posters here with all different life experiences so you will get different opinions from different people. CWs is a walk away spouse himself so his advice is sometimes different then others.

DB-ing is very hard. And men and women are different. Even MWD will tell you that it's harder to turn around a WAW and WW than a man. Also, there is a tendency on these forums to get stuck in waiting mode. MWD talks about the last resort technique, after the last resort techniques, ultimatums and going dark. These are proactive, powerful things that show you are serious. They almost never get mentioned or implemented on the forums. The nature of a forum leads to lots of analysis about every conversation, text and facial expression in the relationship.

You need to make it clear that she doesn't get to play happy family when she is the one who left. You need to be clear and hardcore that there are consequences to her breaking up the family unit.

McRamone #2926403 11/16/21 07:29 PM
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Hi McRamone,

Quote
So there is where I don't get it. I can't make her FEEL anything. I can only control what I can do. correct? I'm certainly not going to date or meet women in bars. This feels manipulative. Maybe someone can correct me.
Honestly.... it *is* manipulative. You trying to behave in a certain way in order to try to make her feel a certain way. That being said-- the GAL, etc is not in order to attract her back, though that may be your initial motivation. It needs to be for YOU. You being healthy, you being centered, you finding the things that you love about yourself that you might have lost being subsumed in a relationship. I think this is really important. I think it is difficult because most LBSs are mostly motivated by what they think will bring their S back, therefore the advice "the fastest way to get your W back is to go in the opposite direction" and "fake it till you make it" is common. If you really focus on yourself, you'll find that eventually you aren't doing these things in order to show her how much she should miss you, but because you genuinely enjoy them, that you are able to be balanced and happy even when you are S from your W, the fear will lessen and you will be in a much healthier mental state. A side effect of that is that many times, it will pique the interest again of your S-- but again, it does need to be genuine, not manipulative.

Same with the 180s. Perhaps the biggest motivator is to fix your relationship with your W, but I think you can have incredible benefits for yourself when you break out of your own mold and the role you usually play in your relationship with your W. You say that you're usually resistant to ideas and get hammered in MC with this. What's the harm of the next idea that comes along (as long as it isn't dangerous) to say-- okay! Sure! Let's try it! My H during the BD/affair time really hammered on this piece that I didn't like to "do things" as much as he did, which is mostly because I was the one making sure that the house was clean, the kids did their homework, etc. and so ended up being cast in the stick in the mud role. So I said, F it. I picked the kids up early from school and we skipped soccer practice and went out and had fun. If he suggested a hike and there were 10 reasons why not, unless those reasons were critical, I said sure! Let's do it. And I'm so glad I did-- not because it showed him anything about me, really, but it helped me rediscover a love of spontaneity that I had somehow lost with getting so bogged down being a working mom.

Again, I think your situation is different than many. Here's my best mind-reading guess-- she no longer feels "in love" with you, you guys focused too much on the kids or whatever. She had an intense emotional experience and realized what she is missing with you. Maybe she is still in touch with that guy, maybe not (you are so cryptic about this part, it would really help us to support you if we had a better understanding of what the role the A/EA played or plays in all of this), but regardless of any potential future with the AP, it highlighted for her the lack of those feelings with you. She wants to make it work with you, she loves you (maybe not "in love" but loves), loves your kids, loves the family, but is looking at life with you just being this slow passionless creep into old age and poof, there went her life. Sounds like she also has a lot of anger/resentment towards you, maybe deserved, maybe not. (If I were you, I'd spend some time here on whether or not her anger is valid. I don't think it is an okay excuse to say "my family was cool with reading each other's journals"-- I get that the first time, but after that you really need to respect her wishes. Are there other areas where you've been inflexible about how you like to do things vs. her way? I have read that many times WWs have tried for years to communicate to their Hs how unhappy they are and the Hs never listen until the W gives up.)

Maybe I'm a sucker but I do think she very well could be totally honest when she tells you that she loves you and wants to figure out how to make this work, and that this separation is her way of trying to resolve her anger and work out some things herself that need to happen before she can reengage with you in a positive way. But this is all her journey and work, not yours. And I think unless she does this work herself and can come back to the M with an open, honest, and authentic desire to be married to you and emotionally connected to you, then you're not going to be able to have the kind of M you both want and deserve. So as hard as it is, giving her this space to process and work on herself is the only path towards R. Of course, it isn't a guarantee. But it is where you have your best shot.

I agree with CW-- what's the harm of having dinner with her if she asks and you want to? As long as you aren't building up your own expectations or putting pressure on her and she's the one asking, I'd be okay with it. Especially given some of the complaints that surfaced in MC, I bet it would be attractive and a 180 for you to make a clear choice of what you want to do and express it clearly-- no "sure, if you want to" answers. I'd say "yeah, that would be great, see you at 6" and avoid any mind-reading or passive aggressive manipulations. But I wouldn't be available every time. How are you guys handling child-care responsibilities during this separation?

Re the hugs/kisses, I'd be playful here. I DEFINITELY wouldn't ever be the one to initiate, but if she does, I'd make it fun. Make her laugh. Don't be sappy or puppy dog eyes. If you can't do that, then avoid.

The conventional wisdom here is that the WS has to hit rock bottom, realize what they've lost, and come crawling back begging for a second chance. It doesn't always happen that way. It certainly didn't in mine. I'd be surprised if your W comes back begging, and if she does because she's afraid she's lost you, it may not be enough of a motivator to spur the hard work in your sitch.

A question for you-- what would make you say enough is enough and be ready to move on?


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
McRamone #2926404 11/16/21 07:50 PM
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So much of the advice depends on whether your W is having an affair or not.

McRamone #2926405 11/16/21 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Thornton
Your goal should be to make her feel like you are the one dumping her. You want to appear like you have had some big epiphany, and that you realize it was her all along that was keeping you from finding YOUR happiness. Now... you don't want to act like some cocky a-hole, but more like someone who is relishing being single and growing into a better version of themselves.
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
She has to FEEL like she has made a mistake. She has to FEEL like she has lost you. Until this happens, you will be confused. When it happens, you will know. She will beg you for a second chance. When she does, your best response it make her "Qualify" herself. Lots of time before this happens to get prepared.
Originally Posted by McRamone
So there is where I don't get it. I can't make her FEEL anything. I can only control what I can do. correct? I'm certainly not going to date or meet women in bars. This feels manipulative. Maybe someone can correct me.
I can understand why you don't get it. Some of this stuff is hard to wrap our brains around.

When do you miss someone? When they are around or when they are gone?

This is an emotional issue that needs logic to address. There are no rules to this, but really good guidelines like "sandys rules". Logic tells me to examine what has worked for others.

There are behaviors that others men do that are attractive to women. Some of these men are extremely manipulative. The PUA community is a perfect example. But if you study them, there are attractive traits that you can add to the new you. If you are like most of us, you have a lot of potential to improve. I have been actively working on it for 10 years, and will most likely be working on myself the day I die.


I have done some things and been completely shocked at how a woman responds. The new behavior had positive results, So It is now part of me. Manipulation? Maybe? Maybe not?


If you do not want to manipulate her, set her free. Forgive her. Don't take anything personal that she does. Do your thing and she might want to come along for the ride. Most guys do not know how to do this. They supplicate. Very unattractive.

One of the best quotes from PuppyDogTails "The last thing I need in my life right now is ANOTHER WOMAN." That can be your mantra, but you do not need to proclaim that her.


I believe this is a perfect way to interact AT A DIFFERENT STAGE of the relationship.
Quote
W - "I didn't sleep well last night"
M- "Oh was it because of the new mattress you are on?"
W- "No" Then she launched into how it affected her. She missed me, missed the kids. etc. I just acknowledge that is was rough. Then made a joke about how I can sleep in a warm room now (she like to keep the windows open...even in winter and it was freezing)

At this stage this would be better:
Quote
W "I didn't sleep well last night"
M- "Really?"
W- "Yes" Then she launched into how it affected her. She missed me, missed the kids. etc. I just acknowledge that must be rough FOR HER. I then stated how I had a great night sleep.
This is your poker face time. Smile with your eyes and walk out.


Quote
I find myself getting hung up on the small things too. Like she said at one point that "we were taking a big risk doing this." I really wanted to follow up an ask her what she meant. 'I just said agreed with her.
So how much of a MR Nice Guy do you want to be? I think agreeing with her is OK. You are still in her frame. Attractive men bring a woman into HIS frame.


Quote
I need advice on 2 things.

1- So later on, she talks about how she's coming over to cook dinner on Wednesday. Then she talked about coming over on Saturday. I want to say this to her but wanted to run it by the people here.

1-"if you want to take the kids and have dinner at your place let me know" However, given that you wanted some space, I don't think it's a good idea to keep coming over here." Thoughts?

Admittedly, I'm torn. I would like see her and want her to show I'm changing. But really defeats the point of her moving and I think it could cause me problems.
This is where that counter-intuitive thing come to play.

Do your kids have cars? If not, "I have something going on Wednesday, I can drop the kids off at your place around 6 and pick them up at 10 if that works for you"..

Quote
She was also way more touchy than normal. She grabbed my hand at the table when she was talking to me. When she left, she gave me a hug, a kiss and said ILY.

2- I don't know how to respond. Do I say ILY back when she says it? Do I say nothing? I don't go seeking out hugs/kisses, but I don't want to give her the Heisman- arm straight out BOOM.
I would respond different every time. I believe you should be building sexual tension if you are trying to attract her. If she is sleeping with other guys, move on. Be high value. Again, you need to reframe this. You want her pursuing you.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
may22 #2926407 11/16/21 08:44 PM
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[/quote]Honestly.... it *is* manipulative. You trying to behave in a certain way in order to try to make her feel a certain way. [/quote]

Call it what you want but this is directly advised by MWD herself. I don't have the DR book anymore but I can remember reading the LRT technique and one one of the bullet points was ... You need to act like you have had an awakening and now realize you will be just fine with or without your spouse. In other words "Act as if".

And I can personally attest to doing this and it working. My ex begged for me back. Now our relationship once again fell apart because we simply weren't right for each other. But "acting as if" certainly caught her attention, more than once.

LH19 #2926408 11/16/21 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by LH19
So much of the advice depends on whether your W is having an affair or not.
That is the truth.

You can give her the benefit of doubt.
You can use her past behavior and current behavior and human nature to make some educated guess.

Either way, you are competing against a real or fantasy guy. Are your behaviors making you look weak or strong?

Just remember, you are competing with single guys with no morals. Woman that are unhappy and blame their marriage (or husband) are easy targets.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
LH19 #2926409 11/16/21 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by LH19
You need to make it clear that she doesn't get to play happy family when she is the one who left. You need to be clear and hardcore that there are consequences to her breaking up the family unit.
Most new posters can't/don't do this. So we then offer "softer" options, which in my opinion are less effective.

You have a huge array of ways to interact and behave. Behavior A may have worked well for one poster, but completely bombed for another. Sifting through all the choices and making decisions is part of your learning process.



You have lots of options as far women, but right now you want this one, and for good reasons. We want you to succeed in keeping the family together. All you can do is your best. Ultimately it is her decision. Part of her decision is based on how she perceives you. There are so many layers.
Projecting that you want her but not need her is part of it. Behaving as a high value male.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
may22 #2926410 11/16/21 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by may22
I agree with CW-- what's the harm of having dinner with her if she asks and you want to?
If you want her to have dinner at your place, you do the invite and you do the cooking. Especially if she was always the cooker.

Negotiation is always an option as well.

"Wednesday doesn't work for me. How about Thursday, I can make us some BLABLABLA?"


You have to look at this like it is a new relationship with a new woman.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Ready2Change #2926411 11/16/21 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by may22
I agree with CW-- what's the harm of having dinner with her if she asks and you want to?
If you want her to have dinner at your place, you do the invite and you do the cooking. Especially if she was always the cooker.

Negotiation is always an option as well.

"Wednesday doesn't work for me. How about Thursday, I can make us some BLABLABLA?"


You have to look at this like it is a new relationship with a new woman.
See this I hate. It’s like you are rewarding her for having an affair and busting up the family. That’s why IMO having plans is best.

LH19 #2926413 11/16/21 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by may22
I agree with CW-- what's the harm of having dinner with her if she asks and you want to?
If you want her to have dinner at your place, you do the invite and you do the cooking. Especially if she was always the cooker.

Negotiation is always an option as well.

"Wednesday doesn't work for me. How about Thursday, I can make us some BLABLABLA?"


You have to look at this like it is a new relationship with a new woman.
See this I hate. It’s like you are rewarding her for having an affair and busting up the family. That’s why IMO having plans is best.

I agree, but I am not sure he has what it takes to do this:
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Do your kids have cars? If not, "I have something going on Wednesday, I can drop the kids off at your place around 6 and pick them up at 10 if that works for you"

We will see by his actions.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
McRamone #2926415 11/16/21 11:52 PM
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Well, I guess I appreciate you guys sticking around other than others who took their ball and ran home.


I'm inclined to follow what May22 says. To put it bluntly, she's a woman and I think many guys don't know jack about women.

I know everyone things their situation is different, but I have to reiterate. 1) I don't believe there is an ongoing affair (obviously you guys do...and have made that very clear) The OP is from 2 years ago. And he was never a long term person NEVER. But I can't tell you why because it involves a dynamic that creates some exposure to all parties (not me)

If I was "rewarding her for having an affair" then that ship has sailed because I stuck with her after I found out. 2 months after the communications ceased. And I will note...the last communications were not of a sexual nature but more because of the dynamic. Again this is a public board with a public forum.

so I'll make a deal with you guys. I'm a big boy, I know what it means if I'm wrong. If I am I will be first to eat crow, but I'd rather just deal with what I'm going through in front of me. Thanks.

But it wasn't just one OP that got us to where we are. That much is true.


I had my IC today and I had kind of an epiphany on the way I was approaching things with my W. It was interesting. I also told here I want to work on empathy (someone said that I shouldn't but that is a 180 for me and it applies across all my life) I want to work on giving people the benefit the doubt. I know we can't promote other resources here, but giving the benefit of the doubt is a key component of one of the leading researching on making marriages work.

I also want to work on any anger issues I have. I could be quick to anger on perceived slights.


I also want to make any changes for myself and my kids. Not to win anyone back. honestly, if it's not genuine, it's pure manipulation and I don't care if MWD encourages it, it's dishonest. (I really don't think she does)

I think it's a fantasy of many LBSers to want their spouse to BEG them to come back, I don't want my wife to beg to come back anymore than this board encourages LBS's to beg their WAH or WAWs to come back.

may22.

I do think some of her anger is valid, but much of it is for things that happened in the past and I can't change that.


Surprise - She wanted to come over today to help me with the treadmill. She asked twice. But I politely and clearly decline saying. We would see her tomorrow.


R2C don't give up on me yet. I really don't think your last post was supportive at all.

McRamone #2926416 11/17/21 12:26 AM
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So Mac daddy I am getting a sense from your posts some arrogance and now apparently anger issues. So again this is possibly what this is all about that your w just needs a break from you.
You remind me of a poster RR17 who was also a lawyer.

The truth be told you can have dinner not have dinner it doesn’t really matter in the long run. If she left to have an affair then there is really nothing you can do until the affair ends. If she’s taking a break then odds are she’s coming back when she’s ready.

Make the changes you want to make for yourself and your children and the rest will work itself out.

Making yourself scarce and being busy is your best bet right now.

McRamone #2926419 11/17/21 02:37 AM
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McRamone,

All of the posters who responded to you are genuinely here to give advice and help others through one of the hardest times in their lives. And you have A LOT of really experienced people posting in your thread, folks with many years of experience who have read hundreds of sitches. Some of them use finesse and others are more blunt, but everyone's goal is to A) get you in a better place in life and B) save your marriage, if possible.

It sounds like you're doing a lot of things right in terms of not begging/giving space, GAL, IC.

You've identified areas you want to work on, which is great:
Originally Posted by McRamone
I want to work on empathy.
I want to work on giving people the benefit the doubt.
I also want to work on any anger issues I have. I could be quick to anger on perceived slights.
To LH's point, your last post comes across as pretty salty. Maybe this is an example of the "quick to anger" you want to work on?

Originally Posted by McRamone
I know everyone things their situation is different, but I have to reiterate. 1) I don't believe there is an ongoing affair (obviously you guys do...and have made that very clear)
...
so I'll make a deal with you guys. I'm a big boy, I know what it means if I'm wrong. If I am I will be first to eat crow, but I'd rather just deal with what I'm going through in front of me. Thanks.
No one here wants you to have to eat crow. We all hope with you there is not an affair. It's just in most of our own sitches and and the majority of cases on this board there has been one that comes to light...even when the poster swears up and down there is not one. We just want to prepare you for the possibility, as much as it might sting.

Originally Posted by McRamone
Then she said they hooked her internet up. At first I was upset because in my mind you don't get a internet contract if you are going to be away for only 3 months, but then I realized in this day and age it's almost impossible to operate without internet at your home.
It's likely not "3 months" in her head. At first you got upset/panicked/amped up because the internet challenged the comfort of you thinking "it's only 3 months". Then, you got relief when you rationalized in your mind a way that internet doesn't mean she'll be gone more than 3 months. It's hard, but you have to get in the mindset you'll be totally fine if it ends up being more time than initially communicated...whether it's 6 months, a year, or never.


How are your boys? I've asked a few times, but you haven't really engaged. How are they doing with all this? They're teenagers and their mom has moved out. I understand it's a burden on you, but it's also incredibly impactful on them...are you able to help them through it on top of dealing with it yourself?

Last edited by BL42; 11/17/21 02:38 AM.

Me:39 Ex-W:37
M:7 T: 9
S:6 D:3
BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20
OM1 affair ends: May '20
W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20
W files for D: Jul20
OM2 confirmed: 9/2020
Divorced: May '21
LH19 #2926420 11/17/21 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by LH19
So Mac daddy I am getting a sense from your posts some arrogance and now apparently anger issues. So again this is possibly what this is all about that your w just needs a break from you.
You remind me of a poster RR17 who was also a lawyer.


I never met a L who wasn’t arrogant. If we aren’t. We get steamrolled. Anger? Really? Because R2 made a cutting remark? Now maybe he was trying the old reverse psychology but it doesn’t work on everyone.

Tell me how this is helpful.

Quote
I agree, but I am not sure he has what it takes to do this
. I’m not seeing anything other than a jab at me. I could be wrong.

It’s a trying time for me. I do tend to see jab and anger was a normal way of expressing myself growing up. But while we yelled, we also quickly moved on. I did talk to my IC about the anger thing.

The boys are (for now) cool with everything. Of course with teens you can never be sure. I’ve asked it a couple of ways. I’ve been the primary care giver during this whole pandemic. I take them to school. I do fun things with them, I make they are on top of school. Teachers email me with issues. So really it’s more of the same. My W doesn’t have the flexibility with her job so it feel to me.

I’ve made it clear that they can talk to me about this and do regular check-ins.

McRamone #2926424 11/17/21 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
I never met a L who wasn’t arrogant. If we aren’t. We get steamrolled.

Mc, arrogance is very unattractive. Just because you're an L and you might all be, doesn't make it any less attractive. Guess what number 1 on the list of attractiveness is for women....confidence. Very different to arrogance, and something I imagine you can be as an L and not get steamrolled. Maybe this mindset is a 180?

I get it, I used to work at an investment bank, I thought the same about arrogance, but now I look back on my time there and its pretty cringe. In my new career, I bring confidence and I feel much better about myself, and no one steamrolls me.

Second, defensiveness, you seem to have a bit of an issue with this. Defensiveness, justifying, both very unattractive behaviours, not just to the opposite sex, to everyone. Again, I had issues here and I've worked very hard to remove these from my life, much better, but still a work in progress.

Originally Posted by McRamone
Anger? Really? Because R2 made a cutting remark? Now maybe he was trying the old reverse psychology but it doesn’t work on everyone. Tell me how this is helpful.

I’m not seeing anything other than a jab at me. I could be wrong.


Go back, read other's threads, I think you will see that R2C (or anyone who has replied for that matter) are the types to take a jab at you.

Last edited by OnlyBent; 11/17/21 05:50 AM.

Me: 41 W:42
T: 14 M: 11
S: 6

"What happened happened, and couldn't have happened any other way...because it didn't"
McRamone #2926425 11/17/21 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
Well, I guess I appreciate you guys sticking around other than others who took their ball and ran home.


I'm inclined to follow what May22 says. To put it bluntly, she's a woman and I think many guys don't know jack about women.

This is the type of BS I am talking about. Who took their ball and ran home? How many posters have you contributed to?

May is a wise woman, you should listen to her. But at the same time know her sitch is very different to yours. The men you are talking to have spent countless years learning about women to reduce the risk of something happening to them again. Would be remiss to ignore that.


Me: 41 W:42
T: 14 M: 11
S: 6

"What happened happened, and couldn't have happened any other way...because it didn't"
McRamone #2926427 11/17/21 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
R2C don't give up on me yet. I really don't think your last post was supportive at all.
Not giving up.

I will support you however you need. Only you have all the information to make the best decisions for you and your children. We only have a tiny window into your life.

As you make your choices, and share details, I will be watching and give you my 2 cents.



“One of the great challenges in life is knowing enough to think you're right but not enough to know you're wrong”

― Neil deGrasse Tyson


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
OnlyBent #2926428 11/17/21 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
I think many guys don't know jack about women.
I completely agree.

Originally Posted by OnlyBent
May is a wise woman, you should listen to her.
I love reading the post by women here. They are very articulate and I love the way they can elaborate and clarify their thoughts.


Originally Posted by OnlyBent
The men you are talking to have spent countless years learning about women to reduce the risk of something happening to them again.
I am prepared if it happens again. I have put myself in other posters shoes countless times. The crazy part, I have put other posters into other peoples shoes.


How would I respond to this? How would LH19 respond to this? How would SteveLH respond to this? How would Coach respond to this? AnotherStander, PuppyDogTails, RobX, AllenA, Gucci, Gecco ....


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
McRamone #2926431 11/17/21 11:53 AM
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Just a few quick points

Confidence and arrogance are two different things.

No one took their ball and went home. We are all volunteers doing this to help. No point in stating what 3 other posters have, and some of us can only check every so often.

We all support in our own ways. Some are just more blunt than others. But no way wants to deal with entitlement mixed with arrogance.

I’m glad you’re in therapy. I think that’ll go a long way in making you be the best you, you can be.

You can’t control her, so control yourself. If you’re ok with her having her cake and eating it too, that’s your choice. However, what reason would she have to miss you if she can always just be around you and than be able to go back to her vacation rental. You can’t stop her from coming over, but you can control if you are there or available.

You haven’t posted here before have you? You kind of remind me of Tom H.

Last edited by JosephS; 11/17/21 11:54 AM.

Me: 40
EX:37
Together 17 years
Married 16 years
5 kids, 20,18,15,14,11

BD 03/06/20, divorced 12/23/21
McRamone #2926433 11/17/21 01:21 PM
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Ready2Change,
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
I have done some things and been completely shocked at how a woman responds. The new behavior had positive results, So It is now part of me.
Care to share any real world examples?


Me:39 Ex-W:37
M:7 T: 9
S:6 D:3
BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20
OM1 affair ends: May '20
W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20
W files for D: Jul20
OM2 confirmed: 9/2020
Divorced: May '21
McRamone #2926434 11/17/21 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
I never met a L who wasn’t arrogant. If we aren’t. We get steamrolled. Anger? Really? Because R2 made a cutting remark?
No. You mentioned it a couple times in your thread.
Originally Posted by McRamone
I also want to work on any anger issues I have. I could be quick to anger on perceived slights.
Originally Posted by McRamone
It’s a trying time for me. I do tend to see jab and anger was a normal way of expressing myself growing up. But while we yelled, we also quickly moved on. I did talk to my IC about the anger thing.


Originally Posted by R2C
I agree, but I am not sure he has what it takes to do this
.
Originally Posted by McRamone
I’m not seeing anything other than a jab at me. I could be wrong.
You are wrong. Most LBS have difficult implementing DB because it goes against everything they want to do. They want to pursue and try to fix things by showing off there "changes". I use changes in quotes because they are not real RIGHT NOW and these changes are usually either not believed or pi$$ the WS spouse anyway. The hard thing to do is to politely decline the offer and go out at do something fun.
Originally Posted by McRamone
I'm inclined to follow what May22 says. To put it bluntly, she's a woman and I think many guys don't know jack about women.
Could it be that you are going to follow May22 because she suggested to do what you are dying to do? Look I do agree that men in general have a tough time understanding women. But you are dealing with a WAW/WW which is a completely different animal. Timing is everything in these situations and IMO the longer this drags on, the weaker your position becomes. You will compromise, make yourself smaller, trying to meet her needs and then she'll walk all over you.

Joseph, Bent, BL lets cut Mac some slack as you know this is really difficult especially when the advice varies.

Last edited by LH19; 11/17/21 01:45 PM.
McRamone #2926436 11/17/21 02:16 PM
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Just my opinion, you can take it or leave it. And if my advice offends you, or feels manipulative, just let me know and I will refrain from posting on your thread.

If you decide to hang out, have dinners, while she goes back to her rental, you are in essence easing her transition into singlehood. I think you are doing yourself a disservice by playing along.

She wanted space, right? Then the most loving thing you can do is respect her wish and give it to her. She is testing out what it's like to not be in a relationship with you (and she may be involved with another man), so.... show her what it's like. Remove yourself, respectfully, from her life. Allow her to wonder about, and miss you.

And while she's seeing what it's like without you, make yourself as attractive as possible. Focus on your issues in therapy, build your body, push yourself outside your comfort zone, explore new things etc. And this can make you extremely attractive to your WAS, or to other women (No, I'm not advocating dating), when and if the time comes for you to get back out there.

You can scour the internet, YouTube etc for advice on how to get your W back and you will see most of the advice is pretty consistent. You have to let her go, in order to get her back. The problem is that letting her go will be the hardest thing you have ever done and it will go against every instinct you have to preserve your marriage. Many people can't do it.

Thornton #2926438 11/17/21 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Thornton
Just my opinion, you can take it or leave it. And if my advice offends you, or feels manipulative, just let me know and I will refrain from posting on your thread.

If you decide to hang out, have dinners, while she goes back to her rental, you are in essence easing her transition into singlehood. I think you are doing yourself a disservice by playing along.

She wanted space, right? Then the most loving thing you can do is respect her wish and give it to her. She is testing out what it's like to not be in a relationship with you (and she may be involved with another man), so.... show her what it's like. Remove yourself, respectfully, from her life. Allow her to wonder about, and miss you.

And while she's seeing what it's like without you, make yourself as attractive as possible. Focus on your issues in therapy, build your body, push yourself outside your comfort zone, explore new things etc. And this can make you extremely attractive to your WAS, or to other women (No, I'm not advocating dating), when and if the time comes for you to get back out there.

You can scour the internet, YouTube etc for advice on how to get your W back and you will see most of the advice is pretty consistent. You have to let her go, in order to get her back. The problem is that letting her go will be the hardest thing you have ever done and it will go against every instinct you have to preserve your marriage. Many people can't do it.
This is great advice and what happened in my situation. On top of that I let my ex-wife wean herself off me after being with me for more than half her life. The very best path is the minute your partner says they want out you smile, say "good luck with that", hand them a box of their stuff, and go live a kick-@ss life of your own. Easier said then done especially when people are telling you that playing happy family is ok.

McRamone #2926440 11/17/21 03:00 PM
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There is no career or profession where arrogance is a prerequisite to success. That’s a very weak excuse . Confidence , yes, arrogance absolutely not. There is actually no situation that arrogance is necessary for success.

McRamone #2926464 11/17/21 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
I never met a L who wasn’t arrogant. If we aren’t. We get steamrolled.
To pipe in, I work in the corporate world. I've never hired an attorney who acted arrogantly nor can I recall one of our corporate attorneys displaying arrogance, granted I don't see them daily. They do display confidence. The ones I work with only make salaries in the $200K-$300K range. If what you say is true, and these attorneys all have an inner arrogance that keeps them acting capably and avoiding being steamrolled, they've at least learned not to display it via words or actions to their clients or to legal opposition. If you feel you're in some higher range ($500k+) where it's necessary, perhaps it's worth considering salary vs. quality of life. I think many of us make choices at some point about what and how far we're willing to go to make a living and how much salary we are content with.

BL42 #2926469 11/17/21 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
I have done some things and been completely shocked at how a woman responds. The new behavior had positive results, So it is now part of me.
Originally Posted by BL42
Ready2Change, Care to share any real world examples?
I won't be explicit about my interactions in the bedroom, but that is one area. I guess one of the more vanilla things I can share is how my words can turn my lover on. "I desire you" and "you are an amazing lover" are a couple examples. Google "erotic talk" for more.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
McRamone #2926604 11/23/21 04:29 PM
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I have a few things to update, but I'm currently looking at other resources.

I was reading about the origins of validation and active listening. It apparently started in the therapist-patient dynamic as a way to get the patient to open up about themselves so they could get help.

it was imported into most forms of marriage counseling but there are questions about its effectiveness. ." That's why I am choosing to to work on my emotional intelligence in a marriage. Plus a trained psychiatrist can spot validation and active listening a mile away.

I'm not saying it can't be useful or effective and it certainly has value.

Last edited by McRamone; 11/23/21 04:34 PM.
McRamone #2926605 11/23/21 04:42 PM
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I am not a big fan of validating a wayward but it's true value is it can replace trying to argue your point.

I found validation works best on children and people you don't know well. It takes a really long time to perfect until it comes off as sincere to people who have known you for awhile.

I am interested to hear how "happy family" time went last week.

McRamone #2926606 11/23/21 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
I am choosing to to work on my emotional intelligence in a marriage

Could you clarify what you mean by being specific?


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
McRamone #2926608 11/23/21 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
it was imported into most forms of marriage counseling but there are questions about its effectiveness.
It was a key factor in my reconciliation and has dramatically improved every relationship where I've deployed it (e.g., my daughter). Another member's success with it--a fellow called AnotherStander who is doing well but rarely comments anymore--nudged me to try it. At its core it's about listening, understanding where another is coming from, and showing it. If you're not up for that now, or don't feel that she deserves it, keep it in mind for when you want to build rapport. At least strive to avoid negative communication patterns like stonewalling and defensiveness.

Originally Posted by McRamone
It apparently started in the therapist-patient dynamic as a way to get the patient to open up about themselves
There's nothing wrong with her recognizing (as distinct from you pointing them out or trying to show off) that you're making 180s, validating, actively listening, etc. No Sneakyism here. Some people enjoy validation without knowing what it is. Others see if for what it is and say, "Wow, I've never been validated like that before, it's wonderful." That works, too!

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Originally Posted by CWarrior
It was a key factor in my reconciliation and has dramatically improved every relationship where I've deployed it (e.g., my daughter). Another member's success with it--a fellow called AnotherStander who is doing well but rarely comments anymore--nudged me to try it. At its core it's about listening, understanding where another is coming from, and showing it. If you're not up for that now, or don't feel that she deserves it, keep it in mind for when you want to build rapport. At least strive to avoid negative communication patterns like stonewalling and defensiveness.

I'd be curious to see empirical data. Does that include Ms. Woodnymph? (yes I read your story) LOL

Originally Posted by CWarrior
There's nothing wrong with her recognizing (as distinct from you pointing them out or trying to show off) that you're making 180s, validating, actively listening, etc. No Sneakyism here. Some people enjoy validation without knowing what it is. Others see if for what it is and say, "Wow, I've never been validated like that before, it's wonderful." That works, too!

The problem is that she knows what the origin is and sees it for something else.

Ready2Change #2926611 11/23/21 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by McRamone
I am choosing to to work on my emotional intelligence in a marriage

Could you clarify what you mean by being specific?

It is my understanding that we can't link to other sources here.

Understand my feelings. As my W says, you can have the feeling but its the behavior from the feeling that can cause problems.

Last edited by McRamone; 11/23/21 05:55 PM.
McRamone #2926612 11/23/21 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
Does that include Ms. Woodnymph? (yes I read your story) LOL
Yes! Validation was a huge part of why the young, sexy, well-off Ms. Woodnymph slept with me on that first date--hiking while my son was at a party for a few hours! She felt seen and safe. I glimpsed her submissiveness. It's up to you how you leverage the rapport and insights.

Originally Posted by McRamone
The problem is that she knows what the origin is and sees it for something else.
Does SHE see it for "something else", or do you? If you've read my story, you also know I dated a psychologist briefly, and she also relished my validation and active listening.

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Originally Posted by CWarrior
Yes! Validation was a huge part of why the young, sexy, well-off Ms. Woodnymph slept with me on that first date--hiking while my son was at a party for a few hours! She felt seen and safe. I glimpsed her submissiveness. It's up to you how you leverage the rapport and insights.
Or maybe she's just a slut.

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Originally Posted by LH19
Or maybe she's just a slut.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Slut-shaming involves criticizing women for their transgression of accepted codes of sexual conduct, i.e., admonishing them for behavior, attire or desires that are more sexual than society finds acceptable. The action of slut-shaming can be considered to be a form of social punishment and is an aspect of sexism.. The topic of slut-shaming sheds light on the social issues that are associated with the double standard. This is because slut-shaming is usually toward girls and women, and boys and men usually do not get slut-shamed.

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Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by McRamone
Does that include Ms. Woodnymph? (yes I read your story) LOL
Yes! Validation was a huge part of why the young, sexy, well-off Ms. Woodnymph slept with me on that first date--hiking while my son was at a party for a few hours! She felt seen and safe. I glimpsed her submissiveness. It's up to you how you leverage the rapport and insights.

Originally Posted by McRamone
The problem is that she knows what the origin is and sees it for something else.
Does SHE see it for "something else", or do you? If you've read my story, you also know I dated a psychologist briefly, and she also relished my validation and active listening.

She does. It’s not surprising about the psychologist. If she does therapy it’s part of what she does but probably not done to her. I hope it wasn’t your therapist. I would add when the relationship is understress validation is more difficult.

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McRamone,

Originally Posted by McRamone
I have a few things to update, but I'm currently looking at other resources.
What are your updates? We can only help/advise if you share...

Originally Posted by McRamone
The boys are (for now) cool with everything. Of course with teens you can never be sure. I’ve asked it a couple of ways. I’ve been the primary care giver during this whole pandemic. I take them to school. I do fun things with them, I make they are on top of school. Teachers email me with issues. So really it’s more of the same. My W doesn’t have the flexibility with her job so it feel to me.

I’ve made it clear that they can talk to me about this and do regular check-ins.
Your teenage sons are "cool" with their mom moving out of the house? Seems unlikely. Good you're checking in with them and helping with school, but maybe they're burying their emotions? Make sure they're getting the support they need with the whole situation.

Last edited by BL42; 11/23/21 06:49 PM.

Me:39 Ex-W:37
M:7 T: 9
S:6 D:3
BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20
OM1 affair ends: May '20
W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20
W files for D: Jul20
OM2 confirmed: 9/2020
Divorced: May '21
McRamone #2926617 11/23/21 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
I would add when the relationship is understress validation is more difficult.
I agree. That's why time and space is the only long term remedy. The problem is that the LBS is deathly afraid of it. Look at Mach40 he's been denying it for years.

We are creatures of survival, and we hold on to what we find dear because it makes us feel safe. However, to have the best quality of life possible, we sometimes need to sacrifice that thing to be happier, and if it returns, then great. If not, then it wasn't meant to be with us.

McRamone #2926618 11/23/21 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
I hope it wasn’t your therapist.
No, just someone interesting and pretty I met, who happened to be a psychologist.

Originally Posted by McRamone
I would add when the relationship is understress validation is more difficult.
Definitely. The crucible of BD provided the motivation to learn validation and active listening BUT also the challenge that when you're hurting it's harder to take a step back and empathize with others. As LH says, poorly done it can sound stiff and mechanical so it helped to practice on kids, clients, and colleagues. I'm proud that I was able to learn fast enough to reconcile.

While bad communication can sink relationships--again, try to eschew stonewalling and defensiveness--good communication isn't always enough. One of my books used the example of a two people both needing a full bottle of water in the desert to survive and there only being one. My ex and I were ultimately not compatible. I am content we gave it another year and a good try. wink

DB also focuses on action. Making consistent, positive changes to our lives.

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