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McRamone #2926302 11/12/21 03:40 PM
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I know I'm on moderation and it's no fun. LH, Steve, BL, CW thanks for the kinds words and taking time.

I feel like message are crossing but a few more thoughts.

1st, I don't know why but I didn't get the confirmation email from DBsite to my email. I hope that doesn't mean my account will be cancelled. I checked the junk mail too - nada.


I am confused. Many people have said that I can't tell my wife not to move or or tell her to move out. But wouldn't the same also apply to parameters on living apart? I was not the one saying 3 months - she was. I didn't say agree or disagree with that. But if I say no to that, isn't that me trying to control. I wasn't the one saying MC - she was. Also, I'm not dating and I haven't agreed to any with her.

Also, She did all her own legwork, got her own place, coordinate all her own everything. But it sounds I can't support her decision in any way? Especially when she's telling me what she needs. I only told her to let me know the financial implications because that is important to manage.
While I don't practice in family law, I certain know the rights and implications of the moving pieces here. I have had a consult with an family law L in town, so I'm all set on that. Unfortunately, the D laws in most states don't take into account bad actors (thank you R.Reagan in the 1970s...not really)

On her feelings of privacy. I get that you think it's rubbish steve, but if I say that to her ...is that me dismissing her feelings about it? And these feelings are from way before the 'incident" Some of which I contributed to.

McRamone #2926309 11/12/21 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
But wouldn't the same also apply to parameters on living apart? I was not the one saying 3 months - she was. I didn't say agree or disagree with that. But if I say no to that, isn't that me trying to control.
Passive - Letting others control you
Aggressive - Controlling others
Assertive - Controlling yourself

Your goal is to be assertive without being aggressive.

Originally Posted by McRamone
I wasn't the one saying MC - she was.
See above. She controls if she sees the therapist, you control if you see the therapist. It would be controlling if you were to tell her "No, she can't go." It's not controlling for you to say "No, I won't go." Before DB, I didn't recognize how often "Should WE go" was used by me and others as an attempt to exert control. She's separating. Find and show yourself as an individual.

Last edited by CWarrior; 11/12/21 06:29 PM.
McRamone #2926313 11/12/21 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
I am confused. Many people have said that I can't tell my wife not to move or or tell her to move out.
Well you can but that would be considered controlling. She is moving out and that is a good thing because you need time and space apart from one another.

Originally Posted by McRamone
But wouldn't the same also apply to parameters on living apart? I was not the one saying 3 months - she was.
That's ok. Just don't try to hold her to it. It it turns into 4,5,6 it doesn't matter because you are too busy kicking a$$ with life and figuring out what you want moving forward.

Originally Posted by McRamone
I didn't say agree or disagree with that. But if I say no to that, isn't that me trying to control. I wasn't the one saying MC - she was.
I think you should go to MC and observe, listen and validate. You will find out soon enough the following:

I read in a book once that people come to MC for a variety of reasons:

1) Trying to give the appearance that they "tried" when in fact they had already given up. This is public face-saving
2) Trying to help the other person come to terms with the fact that they have decided to leave
3) Trying to get a third party to validate that they are right and the other person is wrong
4) Trying to save their marriage by being willing to work on it.

They said that 95% of the time, one person is coming for reasons 1-3, and the other person is coming for reason 4. When only one person is in, MC has a 0% success rate.

It said that people usually come in about three years too late, when one party is already fully checked out.

It sounds like you're fully in this scenario where you're in group 4 and W is in some combination of groups 1-3. In that scenario, you have almost no chance of success with MC.

I would strongly recommend individual IC and telephone DB coaching as being a *much* more effective course of action for you.

In this situation that one person is already done there is probably a zero percent success rate for any MC. In addition, I believe that they make the situation worse because they encourage the "standing spouse" to divulge all their thoughts and feelings which comes across as pursuing behavior.

When one person wants out and one person wants to keep things together, overt pursuit is the enemy.

Nothing she says is a final pronouncement, nothing she says is now and forever. If you treat it that way you make everything worse for both of you.

Originally Posted by McRamone
Also, I'm not dating and I haven't agreed to any with her.
IMO don't even discuss this. You are both free to do whatever you want while separated. She will lie anyways so don't even waste a breath on it.

Originally Posted by McRamone
Also, She did all her own legwork, got her own place, coordinate all her own everything. But it sounds I can't support her decision in any way?
Your attitude should be I think this is a good idea because we BOTH need time to think about what we want moving forward.

Originally Posted by McRamone
On her feelings of privacy. I get that you think it's rubbish steve, but if I say that to her ...is that me dismissing her feelings about it? And these feelings are from way before the 'incident" Some of which I contributed to.
You can understand why she's upset just don't let her flip the script on what she did that you discovered. Once trust is lost it is hard to get back.

McRamone #2926314 11/12/21 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by McRamone
I know I'm on moderation and it's no fun
. Moderators are volunteers. Just be patient and keep posting. You will be off moderation soon.

Quote
I am confused. Many people have said that I can't tell my wife not to move or or tell her to move out.
Both of these are attempting to control her behavior. Boundaries, I statements and actions are a better way for you to behave.

I can tell you to stop posting. How much control over you do I have? (That is an attempt at controlling you)
If I decide you are not worth my time, I can stop posting to you. (That is my boundary) I can state it to you, or I can just take the action and stop posting to you.

See the difference?


Quote
But wouldn't the same also apply to parameters on living apart? I was not the one saying 3 months - she was.
Set her free. Do not agree to anything that controls you. RIGHT NOW, she needs time and space from you. Lovingly give it to her. Take this time alone to work on you. It is a gift. It is counter-intuitive, but you both need to experience this.


Quote
Also, She did all her own legwork, got her own place, coordinate all her own everything. But it sounds I can't support her decision in any way? Especially when she's telling me what she needs. I only told her to let me know the financial implications because that is important to manage.
You have lots of choices on how to respond. I believe your best option is to enthusiastically support her, even though you do not think it is the best option.

She has to FEEL like she has lost you before anything is going to start getting better.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
LH19 #2926315 11/12/21 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by LH19
Once trust is lost it is hard to get back.
And that is on her by her actions over a long period of time.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
Amor Fati
Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Traveler #2926317 11/12/21 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by McRamone
But wouldn't the same also apply to parameters on living apart? I was not the one saying 3 months - she was. I didn't say agree or disagree with that. But if I say no to that, isn't that me trying to control.
Passive - Letting others control you
Aggressive - Controlling others
Assertive - Controlling yourself

Your goal is to be assertive without being aggressive.

I'm confused multiple people said I should tell her NO to any parameters on the separation. Isn't that being 'aggressive'. Telling her she can't move back after 3 months seems controlling.

Now you are saying I shouldn't say anything (which I did all along) or say something like "I can't control when you decide to move back."

So if she wants to have a "date" night once a week, I should say "no." Or should I say something like, "W, I will be at the restaurant at 7 p.m, you are free to join me."





Originally Posted by CWarrior
See above. She controls if she sees the therapist, you control if you see the therapist. It would be controlling if you were to tell her "No, she can't go." It's not controlling for you to say "No, I won't go." Before DB, I didn't recognize how often "Should WE go" was used by me and others as an attempt to exert control. She's separating. Find and show yourself as an individual.

She's separating NOT Divorcing. I know everyone here sees a nail, but this situation is entirely different. She says "H, I think it is important that we continue to see the MC while we are living apart." (This is by the way how many people approach separations like these - I know I can't name other marriage counseling types- but one is pretty famous and his work is based on research) MC isn't like going for a run, it's like clapping. Try to clap with one hand. It's pointless. I'm fairly certain my W knows that I make a choice to show up at the appointment and don't force her to go the appointment.


It sounds like you are telling me not to go. I've read a lot of threads and it seems some advice people give is to insist on going to MC as a part of recon. Is that controlling?

LH19 #2926318 11/12/21 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
That's ok. Just don't try to hold her to it. It it turns into 4,5,6 it doesn't matter because you are too busy kicking a$$ with life and figuring out what you want moving forward.


Again to reiterate, I said nothing when she said 3 months. Okay, I did say it might take longer but that was it.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
I think you should go to MC and observe, listen and validate. You will find out soon enough the following:

I read in a book once that people come to MC for a variety of reasons:

1) Trying to give the appearance that they "tried" when in fact they had already given up. This is public face-saving
2) Trying to help the other person come to terms with the fact that they have decided to leave
3) Trying to get a third party to validate that they are right and the other person is wrong
4) Trying to save their marriage by being willing to work on it.

They said that 95% of the time, one person is coming for reasons 1-3, and the other person is coming for reason 4. When only one person is in, MC has a 0% success rate.

It said that people usually come in about three years too late, when one party is already fully checked out.

It sounds like you're fully in this scenario where you're in group 4 and W is in some combination of groups 1-3. In that scenario, you have almost no chance of success with MC/

I should say we've been in MC for a couple months. My wife did not drop the Dbomb on me. She didn't tell me she's not in love with me. She told me repeatedly - she's loves me and our family, wants to have a great marriage and grow old together. She hasn't used our sessions to tell me she's leaving the marriage nor has she tried to say she was justified in what happened. (I know, I know don't believe what the say except when Sandi's rules tell you to)

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
IMO don't even discuss this. You are both free to do whatever you want while separated. She will lie anyways so don't even waste a breath on it.

Wow...just wow.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Your attitude should be I think this is a good idea because we BOTH need time to think about what we want moving forward.

This I need to do. Thanks for how to phrase it. But I don't know if she's going to believe a sudden [censored] in perspective when I've been saying the opposite.


Thanks, thanks

Ready2Change #2926319 11/12/21 07:28 PM
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Quote
I can tell you to stop posting. How much control over you do I have? (That is an attempt at controlling you)
If I decide you are not worth my time, I can stop posting to you. (That is my boundary) I can state it to you, or I can just take the action and stop posting to you.

See the difference?

I did the last night. We we talking and she started to raise her voice. I told her that I wasn't going to have her raise her voice at me and me and left.

Quote
You have lots of choices on how to respond. I believe your best option is to enthusiastically support her, even though you do not think it is the best option.

She has to FEEL like she has lost you before anything is going to start getting better.

This feels more difficult because my initial approach wasn't this. Though I agree.



P.S I was trying to do quote blocks and I think I messed up and used your name for another person. Sorry. I have a little knowledge of html and it's a bad thing.

McRamone #2926320 11/12/21 07:47 PM
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Just journal and doing reading. I wrote a long post but it got deleted.

For GAL, I do yoga 2X week, I ride my bike 3X week, I enjoy cooking as a hobby, I regularly get out of the house by myself to go shopping, etc. I just ordered a new treadmill. I am a runner and have done 7 marathons so this isn't new, but had to get rid of my old one a few years ago.
I regularly go to concerts with family, friends or by myself. I love live music...in fact my screen name is for my favorite band. I'm teaching my old how to drive and play video games with my youngest.
I'm not spiritual so church isn't really my thang.

Looking at the 37 rules/ I'm doing pretty good on a lot of them.

some I'm confused and I'm confused

Quote
5. Don't talk about the future.
I do need information as is relates to finances.

Quote
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points".
- I bought her something for her BDay and flowers (from our sons), I also got flowers on Anniversary. XMAS seems like a trap.

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9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better. -
what if she wants to schedule dates? Say no?

Quote
11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
- she says she loves me way more that I say it back to her. Do I pull a Han Solo and say "I know." How to respond?

Quote
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while)
so this takes patient on your behalf. What if she wants to talk...which she does. Just say no. Same goes for the separation. I guess

Quote
23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
- this is what I was talking about the privacy thing.


Sorry for flooding the board. This hard stuff

Ready2Change #2926321 11/12/21 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by McRamone
I know I'm on moderation and it's no fun
. Moderators are volunteers. Just be patient and keep posting. You will be off moderation soon.
YUP - and I have already asked for you to be released as I will be away for the weekend so I am hoping the administrator gets to that as it is out of my control now.

Last edited by Cadet; 11/12/21 07:57 PM.

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