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#2925639 10/27/21 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by scaredA
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Of course it does! She gets to go off, meet men, have sex, and then come home to play house. She gets to have her cake, and eat it too.

Look scaredA, I know you're trying. But your problem is right in your screen name. "Scared". Fear is your enemy. It will make you do things out of weakness. Like buying here an expensive handbag to get her to stay. You have to start focusing on you and your kids. Quit focusing on her. I know that is difficult, but it's the only way you'll ever move forward. Most WWs will cake eat forever if you let them. At some point you have to realize that being D'd is better than being walked all over.

I don't really get what you and LH19 are saying. Are you saying I shouldnt try to change things up as she is a lying cheater and I should just go straight to divorce?

I understand she is currently having her cake and eating it, but at the moment I have no leverage to lay down the law. My understanding with LRT is that if I make small changes to my behaviour, as I am trying to do, she will automatically make small changes in the way she responds to me. I can see this happening already, two months ago she left the room when I walked in, now she is sitting across the lounge from me as I type this. There was full on talk of divorce and leaving two months ago, now she says she is confused.

Will these small changes not build on each other until at some point in the future we can see that things are not going to improve any further or it will reach a point when we can discuss her behaviour.

I really love my wife and my kids and want to do everything I can to prevent a divorce. The divorce can either happen now, or 1 year, 2 year in the future. It will still be a divorce. But at that point at least I can hold my hands up and say I tried.

Am I really being walked all over for trying to repair the damage?

ScaredA, the mistake you are making is a common one with LBS. You are doing things, then gauging her reaction to see how to proceed. That is focusing on her.

And yes you are getting walked on. I know you think her "confusion" is a positive. To me it means that plan A (affair partner) is gone, so she is confused because she doesn't see a current plan A. She will fall back to plan B (you) grudgingly, but if you think she isn't keeping an eye out for a new plan A (ie another AP) then you are kidding yourself.

So if you want to sit and be her safety net, let her continue to behave the way she has, and not move forward with your own life, let me ask you: is that attractive?

And no, moving forward isn't running straight to D (though no one would blame you if you did!), but it does mean you stop all of the playing house stuff. No more staycations. No more buying her expensive things. All of these posts I see very little GAL (I think you said you went out for a few hours one night.) So let me ask you, when is your next GAL activity? Just you going out with friends, her staying home with the kids.

I know you are working hard on self-improvements. That is great, except are you doing that for you or her? Are you making these self-improvements to be the best version of you? Or are you doing it because you want positive reaction for her? What if she was against you going to IC? Would you stop? I know you mentioned she supports it, but what if she didn't? Stop making decisions based on her. Do things because they are best for you and your kids!

And finally, learn what detachment is. Work on it. Stop being so on the hook to her and her emotions. Learn how to be happy yourself, regardless of her and her state of mind.

You mention her and her state of mind, ALL THE TIME! "We went to bed not in a very good mood." "She got upset...." My reaction each time is: SO WHAT? She lost the opportunity to be happy or upset about things related to marriage when she slept with someone else. SHE should be the one begging to come back. She should be the one working to come back to the marriage. Until she sees what life without you would look like, she will continue to cake-eat.

No LBS has ever come here and regretted DBing. The LBSs that have come back here and expressed regrets were the ones that refused to take the advice they were given. "I wish I had listened" is stated by more LBSs than I can tell you. It is your situation, you get to decide how to handle it no matter what anyone here says. But I can tell you that trying to nice your WAS/WS back will not work. So you DB. It may make her mad. So what. You aren't trying to DB to please her, you are trying to DB to do what is best for you. She will either change her mind and want to come back to the marriage, or she won't. But you standing up for yourself will command respect either way. Remember, you teach people how to treat you. So far you've taught her to treat you like garbage, and she can do whatever she wants. That is the dynamic you have to start changing.

An attractive scaredA is the one that refuses to accept bad behavior. Next time she starts an R talk, just make an excuse why you cannot have the discussion and walk away. Next time she protests that you are going out and she has to stay home with the kids, listen and validate. Then go out! If she ever says "buy me this or I am leaving", your response should be "do you need any help packing?"

Please read sandi's writings here. WWs in particular require a tough love approach. Read sandi's 37 rules. I kept a copy of them with me at all times. I read them daily and studied them to memorize them. Start putting them into practice, you will feel much better for it.


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Originally Posted by LH19
I am not saying that at all. I am saying to give her space, think about your values and focus on you and the children.

Im trying to give her space, I have only spoken to her once today and that was after she asked me a question. I am going to go to the cinema tonight.


Originally Posted by LH19
What do you mean lay down the law?

I don't think I can say, you cannot go out, or you have to stop seeing other men. She will just argue and do it anyway. I think those discussions need to come further down the line

Originally Posted by LH19
This is most likely because the cat is out of the bag. She doesn't have to hide it from you.

She still wasn't talking to me once the cat was out of the bag. Remember she was the one who said she was seeing someone else. We still didn't speak for three weeks after she first told me. She has since said that she told me because she was sure that I would grant her a divorce if I knew. She now says she is confused


Originally Posted by LH19
So you think it is as easy as "i have been a good boy, you can stop your affair now'?

No I think it is more off showing her that my behaviour is changing, ie stonewalling, defensiveness, criticism and general nasty words. If she can see that if is permenant, she may make the decision to work more on the marriage. She may also not make that decision. In that case I can say I tried and have changed myself so that I do not carry those habits over into another relationship.


Originally Posted by LH19
So give her time and space and focus on you.

That's what I am trying to do. I am trying to stay out of her face and not initiate R or affair talk.M Sometimes I slip up like the other night.

Originally Posted by LH19
This is true. What I said to you was my opinion after hindsight. I once held on tightly to "I tried everything".

I may also regret it with hindsight, but I feel I need to try. I am doing 180's, GAL and LTR as much as I can.
The one time she spoke to me today she asked for some cream for my younger sons mosquito bites. I told her to give him an anti-histamine as the doctor had told me that last time. She started to raise her voice and said "What do you mean, do you think the dr fixed it. I bought some cream last time and that fixed it". I was about to argue and say "Well thats what the Dr said". However I thought why bother and I said "So can we use the cream you bought again?". She lowered her voice tone and said "I will go an buy some". I think this is a real 180 compared to how we used to talk to each other.


Originally Posted by LH19
You are in a tough spot. She knows she has the upper hand and is quietly enjoying every minute of it. You have to have some kind of boundaries or you will get walked all over. Start small. You won't tolerate her talking to you about how sex with another man was great.

Ok I have been reading about boundaries today. I am going to develop some tonight and post them to see what you all think. I dont really want to go for the full "You cannot see other men or we need to separate boundary" just yet. As she was the one who wanted the divorce I didnt think this will bother here at the moment. I think they are going to be more around the "Im not happy when you talk about this..., so I need to remove myself from the conversation" type boundary. Your idea above will probably be one of them.


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Originally Posted by scaredA
Ok I have been reading about boundaries today. I am going to develop some tonight and post them to see what you all think. I dont really want to go for the full "You cannot see other men or we need to separate boundary" just yet. As she was the one who wanted the divorce I didnt think this will bother here at the moment. I think they are going to be more around the "Im not happy when you talk about this..., so I need to remove myself from the conversation" type boundary. Your idea above will probably be one of them.
This is a good start.


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Originally Posted by scaredA
/

No I think it is more off showing her that my behaviour is changing, ie stonewalling, defensiveness, criticism and general nasty words. If she can see that if is permenant, she may make the decision to work more on the marriage. She may also not make that decision. In that case I can say I tried and have changed myself so that I do not carry those habits over into another relationship.
/

This is what I am trying to tell you. You don't show her anything. You go change for the better, and if she notices great. If she doesn't, then still great because you are now a better person, father and future husband!

When you do things to "show" her it comes off as disingenuous. This is why the advice is to NEVER EVER EVER point out your changes to your WAS. Pointing them out erases it as a positive change. Showing them to her is just barely a step down like that. It would be similar to someone that has been working out, pointing out the size of their biceps (point it out) vs. purposely flexing your muscle in front of them (showing). No you just go about living your life and some will notice and ask if you have been working out. Some will not.


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Originally Posted by scaredA
The one time she spoke to me today she asked for some cream for my younger sons mosquito bites. I told her to give him an anti-histamine as the doctor had told me that last time. She started to raise her voice and said "What do you mean, do you think the dr fixed it. I bought some cream last time and that fixed it". I was about to argue and say "Well thats what the Dr said". However I thought why bother and I said "So can we use the cream you bought again?". She lowered her voice tone and said "I will go an buy some". I think this is a real 180 compared to how we used to talk to each other.

Hmmm. I see a spoiled WW that got her way. I agree you shouldn't argue, but the real test is when you stand your ground on something.

"You can use the cream, or you can follow the dr's advice. However, I refuse to stand here and be yelled at about it." Then walkaway.

Last edited by SteveLW; 10/27/21 03:04 PM.

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Hi SA,

I'm not going to call you by your handle. I understand you feel that way, but I don't know that that moniker is going to do anything positive for you in the long run.

I'm going to be slightly more forgiving than the guys because I strongly believe everyone needs to DB in their own way, and that mistakes are meant as learning tools. They aren't catastrophes. But I'm also here to reinforce a lot of what they say.

You need to detach. You have no way of knowing how "in" she is until she's all in. This is a cat and mouse game that can last ad infinitum if you allow it to. The longer you tie how you feel, and what you want to the day to day roller coaster that she was/is/will be dragging you on the harder it's going to be to for you to emotionally regulate, relax, sleep, eat, care for the kids and yourself, and make an decisions about your life. Detaching isn't about giving up on the MR or your hope for it to make it. It is purely about your survival in this chaos. Do not let her drive the bus you're on. She's already driving the bus of your MR. You need to separate the two as soon as possible.

There will be a lot of talk of respect and allowing disrespect, and all of that. My personal opinion is respect is subjective and just the action of cheating is disrespect. So clearly we're already allowing things we normally wouldn't, so where's the line? I don't know that that can be easily defined so what you really need to focus on is your boundaries. What will you engage with and what won't you engage with.

The reality here is if you stonewalled, you'll have to overcome that at some point but that point would be after recon. Not before. Not engaging isn't stonewalling. Not engaging is refusing to be dragged along for the ride. This is a pick your battles moment. You are well within your rights to say "I'm not doing this right now," when she wants to talk about the R or a D or her A(s) or all the things she'd like you to change, whatever. I was in an IHS for a while, while my H was having an active EA/PA. Once I was able to start working on detachment I lived my life parallel to his. He was my roommate, and a co-parent when he could muster the will to do so. I never stopped loving him. I never gave up on our MR. But I wasn't going to be his pal, and I certainly wasn't going to be his wife. I gave myself the physical and mental space to not engage if I didn't want to. I was in the MBR alone. I was in there alone until he asked permission to return. And he didn't even dare to do so until he was sure he was all in. I had told him the rules from the beginning. He was welcome back anytime so long as no one else was in that bedroom with us. I also only engaged in conversations that were about the kids, bills and/or running the household, he would occasionally rope me in in MR and D talks but it was rare and if I could get out of it I would. Those were some of my lines in the sand. The MBR I articulated, the space I required from him wasn't a conversation we had I just did it. Boundaries will run the gamut. I strongly suggest you read through that thread regularly.

I also strongly suggest you start thinking about a drop dead date. SteveLW got my wheels turning pretty early on about how long I could live the way I was living, and how long I was willing to let our kids live in that kind of environment. How long did I need to to feel like I gave it this my best shot and if H walked it was on him? Based on what Steve said I decided 1 year from the start of the A. H had 1 year to figure out what he wanted and after that I was going to take back control of my life completely. I was going to be the person deciding my future. That alone, gave me a sense of power back in the chaos. It reminded me of who I was before all of this.

The other thing I will say is I don't necessarily agree with that Sandi's 37 rules are the end all be all of WWs as I was one in my first MR. And I've known a few in my life. But until you can detach enough that you aren't willing to do literally anything to save the MR but are willing to do literally anything to save yourself in this Sandi's rules are imperative. And they supersede anything I could tell you.

Honestly I don't how much I believe in the plan A plan B thing either. But I do know that if you focus your self improvement around how W acts and reacts you aren't improving yourself. You're kowtowing to someone who's treating you poorly. And that kind of behavior isn't self respect and it certainly isn't self love. No one can love you if you don't learn how to love yourself. Whether that be W or someone new. W has knocked down your self confidence, she's made you question your reality, your future, your sanity. And that's not counting the damage you did to yourself in the years prior. Do you really know who you are right now? Do you know your place in the world outside of this MR? A broken, uncertain version of you won't survive this. You need to fix that. These scenarios only have 2 outcomes, recon or D. And you're only focus should be regardless of what happens how do I become the person I want to be going forward?

I also wanted to comment on the nice things you keep doing for WW. A lot of men do a lot of things for a payoff. And they think the "nice" things they do will win them points, favor or my favorite of all that they are then entitled to reciprocal action. Doing things for a payoff, isn't nice. Doing things for a payoff with a WW will get you know where but hurt or angry or both. Doing nice things with expectations or doing literally anything with expectations of anyone but especially a WW will set you both up for failure every single time. And once you're there then you have to start asking yourself who is causing you more strife, WW or you? That's not a place to be if you're still emotionally fragile. That will turn inward and get ugly, it will be become bitterness, and you'll never get to move on in either direction.

Below is mine and May's threads respectively. I know CW brought it up. We both did IHS. We both are in recon and piecing. We are working with WHs which is a slightly different animal than a WW, so please bear that in mind.


https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...ain=62699&Number=2878654#Post2878654

https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...ain=62497&Number=2866304#Post2866304


This is the boundaries cheat sheet that I found incredibly helpful:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

And this is the thing I read over and over again when I felt like I wasn't going to survive this. When I felt weak and wanted to beg, cry or scream. When I needed to know there was a light at the end of the tunnel regardless.
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2823726#Post2823726


Read here. Read a lot. Dig in the archives. I found a lot of what I needed to hear going in the way back machine. The support here from vets is helpful, especially in the immediate, but every voice is colored by their story, and sometimes you just need a lot more perspective than can be offered by the few of us who still comment to newbies.

Good luck, SA.

~way

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Originally Posted by scaredA
Ok I have been reading about boundaries today. I am going to develop some tonight and post them to see what you all think. I dont really want to go for the full "You cannot see other men or we need to separate boundary" just yet. As she was the one who wanted the divorce I didnt think this will bother here at the moment. I think they are going to be more around the "Im not happy when you talk about this..., so I need to remove myself from the conversation" type boundary. Your idea above will probably be one of them.

Boundaries are not things you say. They are things you do. For instance, a boundary could be that you will not allow yourself to be cheated on again. This is how it works:

"If she sleeps with another man again, then I will go file for D."

In your second example, the boundary is:

"If she starts to tell me about how great her time with the OM was I will state to her that I do not want to hear about that, then I will leave the house for a few hours."

You do not tell her the boundary ahead of time. You exhibit the boundary by taking action.

scaredA, LBSs always think they can talk their way out of what they acted their way into. You cannot. Words are not going to help you, only actions can.


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Originally Posted by SteveLW
Originally Posted by scaredA
The one time she spoke to me today she asked for some cream for my younger sons mosquito bites. I told her to give him an anti-histamine as the doctor had told me that last time. She started to raise her voice and said "What do you mean, do you think the dr fixed it. I bought some cream last time and that fixed it". I was about to argue and say "Well thats what the Dr said". However I thought why bother and I said "So can we use the cream you bought again?". She lowered her voice tone and said "I will go an buy some". I think this is a real 180 compared to how we used to talk to each other.

Hmmm. I see a spoiled WW that got her way. I agree you shouldn't argue, but the real test is when you stand your ground on something.

"You can use the cream, or you can follow the dr's advice. However, I refuse to stand here and be yelled at about it." Then walkaway.


Yeah and before I check out I'm going to totally disagree with this. Sorry, Steve.

You're not her dad. Do not turn a small spat in to a hill to die on. I think you handled it ok. Not great but ok. Every single little spike in emotion does not require you to react or to be used as a "teachable moment" for your W. Like an angsty teen she will not learn to respect you she'll only learn to resent you more if you do that. That's why I say you handled it fine. You deescalated. That's what was important in the moment. No fuel added to the you're a crappy H and we can't get along so why should we be married file.

The only thing I would've said, is "Ok, what ever you think is best," in as flat an affect as you could muster with out being passive aggressive and be done with the conversation. If it isn't a medical emergency and there's no harm in her solution vs yours so be it. This is good practice for dealing with her in the near future and it's good practice for you in co-parenting should this situation find it's way to a D.

Last edited by wayfarer; 10/27/21 03:20 PM.
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Originally Posted by wayfarer
I also wanted to comment on the nice things you keep doing for WW. A lot of men do a lot of things for a payoff. And they think the "nice" things they do will win them points, favor or my favorite of all that they are then entitled to reciprocal action. Doing things for a payoff, isn't nice. Doing things for a payoff with a WW will get you know where but hurt or angry or both. Doing nice things with expectations or doing literally anything with expectations of anyone but especially a WW will set you both up for failure every single time. And once you're there then you have to start asking yourself who is causing you more strife, WW or you? That's not a place to be if you're still emotionally fragile. That will turn inward and get ugly, it will be become bitterness, and you'll never get to move on in either direction.

Wayfarer's post is awesome. Especially this part. Money here. Most LBHs that come here are suffering from some form of Nice Guy Syndrome. Look it up. It is a horrible way to live and to interact with another human-being. The book No More Mr. Nice Guy can be life changing. Look it up.

Stonewalling is a classic Nice Guy tactic. "I did nice thing A, but I didn't get B in return. So I will stonewall!" It didn't click to me that you were potentially suffering from NGS until way's paragraph above.


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