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DnJ Offline
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Good Morning Eagle

What a wonderful post. I’m so glad you consulted a lawyer. I can see the fear and doubt melting away from here. Knowledge is power. And you look empowered!

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Conclusion is that my case is incredibly strong so I don't have to worry about the kids.

Very good news.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
The children are aware of the fact that we are now effectively getting a divorce, I also confirmed to them that OW2 is a fact, they have asked me about this a number of times and I have been open and honest.

They are relieved. They are more than tired of the situation and apparently want to distance themselves from him already for a long time, but they didn't do this for me.

Yes, children need to get out of the limbo state they fall into. Age appropriate information and knowledge propels them along their path. So wonderful to hear they feel relieved.

And yes, children will behave a certain way for us. Trying to alleviate the situation and our pain. They get stuck in a denial and bargaining like stage of their grief. They become unable to express it out of fear and respect and love and not wanting to make things worse and so on. Good open honest communication let them open their floodgates and let go.

Nice job, stepping out from in between H and the kids. Your job is not to facilitate their relationship. Your job is not to destroy it.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
H is monster again and his cycling is now constant. He can change his mind in 10 minutes.

I suppose the reason for this is the impending divorce.

It’s amazing how quickly they can completely alter their emotional state. Staggering to witness.

The impending divorce is become a reality for him (and you). For until now, it’s only been H’s fantasy idea. He’s dragged his feet. Reality is hitting him, and of course he will run from his emotions.

Stay your course. And continue to utilize H’s emotional state to negotiate and gain his signature upon the dotted line.

You have to utilize his emotions. You cannot reach his rational intellect. He cannot reach it either - for any significant duration to be useful.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I can also keep myself incredibly calm, I didn't think I could do this.

Well done!

There is so much good written in that statement.

“I can” is exactly correct. You can. It’s a choice. And therefore completely within your control and power. And that is the best place for that influence and power to reside.

And acknowledging that you didn’t think you could, allows you change it and believe in the fact you can.

Equanimity is a pretty wonderful state. And it is not some magically born to it only for a select few folks. Anyone can find it if the choose to.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
”sorry for today, I just can't put into words what goes on inside me and I struggle with the children and their actions towards me. I don't wish you anything bad or wrong, on the contrary, only the best. That's why I think it's a shame that you think you can't be there on Saturday (= the party I mentioned you about), it's sad for the children and the parents."

Stay the course Eagle. Do not fall for his manipulation.

H doesn’t understand nor empathize with what is best for the kids. And he really cannot feel anyone else’s sadness - the children and the parents - for not being able to go to the party. That is his feelings showing. Him projecting his feelings on to others. He is sad and frustrated and embarrassed and guilty and such. And it will be seen and out in the open when he cannot present the “nice” family facade that he has been hiding behind.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
After several discussions about the child support, he finally agreed to my proposal.

Excellent.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Draft has now been drawn up and is at the notary, only the house is not yet finalised. He has until 15/11 to decide, otherwise it will be put up for sale.

Now try to sign as quickly as possible, hopefully the notary will put some speed behind it.

Hoping this goes quickly and smoothly.


Eagle, a very nice update. You and the kids are doing really good. So proud of how you’ve handle yourself. Class and Grace my friend. Loads of respect.

Have a great day.

D


Now: Me54 XW50 S24 S23 S20 D19

Oct 8/17-BD, Moves in w/OM, Leaves Kids
Me49 W46 S20 S19 S16 D15
M26 T29
Dec 9/17-Legal Separation
Oct 3/18-W Files
Apr 6/19-Divorced

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Eagle3 Offline OP
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Such beautiful words DnJ.
This really means a lot to me.

Thanks again for always being there at the right time
and sharing your knowledge/advice when I need it.

I will get there, I know I will.


Me (43) H (42)
M:14 T:18, S17, S14 & S14
4/19 BD1 ILYB & OW1 til 2/20
8/20 Moves abroad for work
12/20 Possible new OW2,wants divorce(no action)
09/21 D in progress (Me)
10/21 Start of H's awakening
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Just had a call with my best friend. She told me H came by their house last night for dinner.
He asked this week if they could meet.

The four of us have been best friends since a very long time. H didn’t have any contact with them anymore, only if I went he once came as well a couple of months ago.

He didn’t talk about the D, only that he would like to buy in the house, nothing more.

She said it was a nice evening, she said he behaved like he was before all this happened.

I feel strange. Why is he reaching out now?, didn’t tell me anything although I saw him yesterday since we had a meeting in regards to S14’s at school.

Last edited by Eagle3; 10/23/21 10:38 AM.

Me (43) H (42)
M:14 T:18, S17, S14 & S14
4/19 BD1 ILYB & OW1 til 2/20
8/20 Moves abroad for work
12/20 Possible new OW2,wants divorce(no action)
09/21 D in progress (Me)
10/21 Start of H's awakening
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This afternoon H is coming to the house to see the kids and to talk. The kids want this themselves. They want to explain why they have difficulties with him. H is aware. They are very nervous but they want to do this since they ate fed up with the current relationship they have with their F.

I won’t be there. Hope all will be going well.


Me (43) H (42)
M:14 T:18, S17, S14 & S14
4/19 BD1 ILYB & OW1 til 2/20
8/20 Moves abroad for work
12/20 Possible new OW2,wants divorce(no action)
09/21 D in progress (Me)
10/21 Start of H's awakening
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DnJ Offline
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Good Morning Eagle

Why is H reaching out? Simply because he feels like it.

Whatever specific pressures are triggering his emotions and his need to assuage them is difficult to say. You know how quickly he can and does change emotional states.

The obvious significant pressure is the pending divorce and the collapse of his fantasy narrative. Pretty telling when he only said he wants to purchase the house and nothing about the rest of the divorce.

Compartmentalization, yikes look at all the letters. Errr. Umm.

Compartmentalization is utilized a lot by those within turmoil. It’s a strategy and method of living two or more lives within one. Far beyond just focusing upon other things for a while. This is a complete shift of themselves. They can have entirely different values, thoughts, feelings, and goals. Sounds rather familiar I bet, given your knowledge and witness of H’s actions.

MLC explodes as that compartmentalizing fails to hold things in balance. Then they run. As they tire they return to their previous compartmented life. Then run again. Such a cycle. Explains why H appeared just like before all this happened. For at that time he was.

A few eventually find an awakening. A true dropping of their internal walls and seeing their lives as they are. Note: Seeing their lives - plural - and consolidating them into one. Quite a difficult thing to realize and the accomplish for a troubled soul.

Heap on top of all that, the guilt, shame, regret, pride, ego, failure, etc., and it is little wonder H is less than open about his upcoming comeuppance. Less open to your friends, and less open to himself. Still, you walk the kind and compassionate path and do what needs to be done.

There is a time when the kids will face their parent(s). Teenagers rebel. In Dad’s case, it is going to be multiplied in difficulty for him. The kids do need to clear the air and get things out in the open. And that’s going to take more than just one afternoon.

I suspect the kids will have much to report to you. Most likely they will feel they were rather harsh. What child doesn’t feel bad for speaking back to their parent. Assure them they did fine. Listen and gently guide them to realize Dad’s decisions and choices are his. Help them understand and find acceptance and forgiveness.

It is healthy when the child stands up to the shenanigans. It is most healthy when they do it compassionately. You are a good role model. They will be fine.

D


Now: Me54 XW50 S24 S23 S20 D19

Oct 8/17-BD, Moves in w/OM, Leaves Kids
Me49 W46 S20 S19 S16 D15
M26 T29
Dec 9/17-Legal Separation
Oct 3/18-W Files
Apr 6/19-Divorced

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kml Offline
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Who knows why he met with those friends? Maybe he's buttering them up to ask them for financial help with buying the house? Maybe he's trying to re-establish contact to prepare them for introducing OW2? You'll probably never know and it's no longer really your issue to read his mind.

Hope things go well for your kids speaking with him. Be prepared for H to have turned the narrative into all the things wrong with you.

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Eagle3 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by DnJ
A few eventually find an awakening. A true dropping of their internal walls and seeing their lives as they are. Note: Seeing their lives - plural - and consolidating them into one. Quite a difficult thing to realize and the accomplish for a troubled soul.

Heap on top of all that, the guilt, shame, regret, pride, ego, failure, etc., and it is little wonder H is less than open about his upcoming comeuppance. Less open to your friends, and less open to himself. Still, you walk the kind and compassionate path and do what needs to be done.D

Staying on course but want to share what happened yesterday and today.

DnJ, unbelievable, but what you said above is exactly what happened. The question is how long his "awakening" will last, but it is clear that the impending divorce and the fear of losing his children played a major role in this.

The children talked openly with H yesterday. They told him everything, and also used very harsh words as you predicted. They have poured out their hearts for half an hour to 45 minutes about what has happened in recent years and how difficult it all is for them. S14 even said that he is thinking of cutting off contact completely. H has listened, remained calm at all times, validated what they said and in the end he aknowledged he has been a completely different person and that he has destroyed the whole family with his actions.

This morning H called me. He asked if the children had said anything about the conversation. I told him honestly that we talked about it yesterday evening, that they were very happy they did this and also happy with his response and reactions toward them. And indeed, like my BFF said, there was the old H again. Talked about everything that happened to him for the last 3 years for at least half an hour. He said he had turned 180 degrees, that he had become a completely different person, someone he never really wanted to be. Also told me he went to see his mother last night and talked openly about the fact that she's never been a mother and that he's really struggling with himself as a result. She has of course denied it, but he has said that he has no resentment towards her, that the facts are what they are and that this cannot be reversed anymore.

He also apologized for how he's treated me over the past few years, that his monstrous behavior is because he gets stuck, feels he is losing control and then reacts like a little kid who doesn't get his way and that he don't know why he is still doing this.

Not a word about our M, of course I also intend to continue with what has now been set in motion, since we all know he can turn again in a few hours.

He did say he is having a very hard time because he fears that what he has done in recent years can never be made up for. He fears this will haunt him his whole life and that everyone will look at him differently. Said that is why he has struggled for a long time because he felt like he could never solve this anymore. I told him that what happened can't be reversed, but that it shows a lot of strength to work on this, aknowledge what happened and move forward in the right direction.

This afternoon he sent a message to the children that he will do everything in his power to become the father/person he used to be.

@kml,
I am aware of the fact that he can flip again in a few hours, but when this happens I simply listen to him and validate, can't turn my back yet on him.

Hope I handled it well!

Have a nice Sunday.


Me (43) H (42)
M:14 T:18, S17, S14 & S14
4/19 BD1 ILYB & OW1 til 2/20
8/20 Moves abroad for work
12/20 Possible new OW2,wants divorce(no action)
09/21 D in progress (Me)
10/21 Start of H's awakening
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He’s had a lot of words but no action. It’s fine to be kind to him but until you see any action that actually shows a sincere desire to reconcile, keep on your path.

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DnJ Offline
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Good Morning Eagle

The boys’ conversation with Dad sounds like it went well. Truthfully letting out what was on their minds and in their hearts.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
H has listened, remained calm at all times, validated what they said and in the end he aknowledged he has been a completely different person and that he has destroyed the whole family with his actions.

MLCers see with clarity for a bit then return to the foggy dark.

What H has said is completely true. That in itself is a rare moment.

Dad’s open admission of his inner turmoil is an excellent opportunity for the kids’ emotional and mental welfare.

Follow up with the boys. Validate and assure them that Dad actual is a somewhat different person. That past unrealized trauma(s) have risen and will no longer be ignored.

The boys have seen Dad’s duality. The two (or more) different personalities / emotional states living within him. They know it. Now, it’s time to believe it.

There is a difference between knowing and believing. When children, teens, young adults, and fully grown adults actually believe - the whole situation changes. Some of the several things that happen. One looses that self doubt, even though it’s right before your eyes, its unbelievable. Kindness and compassion flourishes. The biggest one by far - they believe in themselves!

I’ve lived this. I explained and confirmed the evidence that is before my kids’ eyes. Yes, Mom is mostly an snarky 18 year old version of herself, can be her 13 year old self, and when pressured even further a small girl of around 7 emerges. And somewhere lost within that maze of pain and emotional troubles is Mom/J.

J is trapped underneath the weight of past trauma(s) and previous unreconciled personalities. In short, she has to grow up from these times / versions of herself.

Your boys will do fine with such knowledge and awareness. With such a belief.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
S14 even said that he is thinking of cutting off contact completely.

My youngest son basically doesn’t see Mom. S20 last saw her last Christmas for 30 seconds.

Ensure S14 has the right information so to make the right decision for himself. That’s goes for all the boys.

Knowledge and awareness will lead to compassion and understanding. S14 may not see Dad, for reasons other than hurt feelings.

To my S20, his Mom is just a different person. A person he is not particularly fond of, nor respects. She is a stranger. A person who’s views and morals he would not invest his time is getting to know, if she weren’t his Mom. Therefore, why just because she is his Mom. I can’t fault his logic.

Acceptance and forgiveness doesn’t mean one condones the behaviour. We are just not holding on to a bill that needs payment. Paid in full. We are free. And in that freedom such compassionate decisions are possible. To kindly let go. To believe in one’s self.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Also told me he went to see his mother last night and talked openly about the fact that she's never been a mother and that he's really struggling with himself as a result. She has of course denied it, but he has said that he has no resentment towards her, that the facts are what they are and that this cannot be reversed anymore.

It’s so interesting that H conversed with his parent. Just like his kids did with him. My goodness, that is exactly what he needs to do. We are all someone’s kid. We all have/had parents. H has problems with his Mom. Part of his growling up is standing up to her. Just like his boys just did to him.

H’s future is certainly one of interest.

As of course, is your’s and your boys. Live and love your great lives!

Originally Posted by Eagle3
He did say he is having a very hard time because he fears that what he has done in recent years can never be made up for. He fears this will haunt him his whole life and that everyone will look at him differently. Said that is why he has struggled for a long time because he felt like he could never solve this anymore.

Let me come back to this in a second.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I told him that what happened can't be reversed, but that it shows a lot of strength to work on this, acknowledge what happened and move forward in the right direction.

It is pretty cool that H opened up to you. Expressed how he can’t solve this.

He isn’t looking for you to solve it for him either. Remember H is in crisis. He is not a rational LBS looking and listening to advice and suggestions. He is a man driven by his unrealized emotional pains and pressures. A man who is starting to realize them.

Validate more. Solve less.

That’s a difficult thing to do. To let someone find their answers with gentle prompting. H is a scared squirrel and will bolt with too much more pressure. He is accepting the self imposed emotional increase quite well actually; don’t add too much.

Everything you said is spot on. Just say it when it affirms a behaviour he is displaying.

For example: “acknowledge what happened and move forward in the right direction.” H acknowledges his “fears” not “what happened”. And moving forward in the right direction implies his current direction is wrong.

MLCers cannot be wrong. Until they decide they are. Their irrational and emotional brains cannot handle it. They’ve done so much bad to try to feel good - that’s a lot to accept.

That all being said, a few truth darts here and there sometimes helps. I’m sure your 30 minute conversation had plenty of discussion and this was warranted and correct. Just some general feedback is all.

So back to what H said.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
He did say he is having a very hard time because he fears that what he has done in recent years can never be made up for. He fears this will haunt him his whole life and that everyone will look at him differently. Said that is why he has struggled for a long time because he felt like he could never solve this anymore.

Acknowledge his fear.

H is in crisis. He wants his feelings acknowledge. And he is feeling fearful.

To me this reads as depression. You know, depression that follows running. The first part of awakening. This whole MLC thing is a glacier slow process. And it stops and starts and comes off the rails and goes back on and so on. Still, listen to what H said.

Fear. Him realizing his fears is quite a thing. A person running from fear doesn’t feel it as fully. And certainly doesn’t try to face it.

He also has another hallmark of depression. The idea of this will never change. The absolute and negative outlook of life. “He fears this will haunt him his whole life and that everyone will look at him differently.”

“…struggled for a long time because he felt like he could never solve this anymore.” Another interesting look into H. Solving is a rational thing. As in not emotionally driven. Attempting to rationalize his emotional state. The precursor to uncoupling the trigger and fear response.

And someone who actually felt like they cannot (instead of could never) solve this would simply see it as impossible. Plenty of progress showing through his words and small show of actions.

Still, words are words and H can change direction rather quickly.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
He also apologized for how he's treated me over the past few years, that his monstrous behavior is because he gets stuck, feels he is losing control and then reacts like a little kid who doesn't get his way and that he don't know why he is still doing this.

Gosh, to actually hear those words. What I give to have XW see.

Validate and acknowledge H. “Thank you for sharing that with me. It means a lot.”

(No solving, just validate. smile )

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Not a word about our M, of course I also intend to continue with what has now been set in motion, since we all know he can turn again in a few hours.

Of course, not a word about M. His path is about him. All of his talk is about him. How he hurt you. How he hurt the kids. How he fears. Not how you feel. Remember crisis. And a lack of empathy. He simply cannot - for his feelings are too consuming.

Continue with what has been set in motion.

Give H the time and space to catch up if/when he finds his way.

You and the kids live your great lives.

D


Now: Me54 XW50 S24 S23 S20 D19

Oct 8/17-BD, Moves in w/OM, Leaves Kids
Me49 W46 S20 S19 S16 D15
M26 T29
Dec 9/17-Legal Separation
Oct 3/18-W Files
Apr 6/19-Divorced

Love the Sinner, Forgive the Sin.
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 209
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Eagle3 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by kml
He’s had a lot of words but no action. It’s fine to be kind to him but until you see any action that actually shows a sincere desire to reconcile, keep on your path.

Correct kml. That's the thing I constantly repeat to myself. I can see a clear change in his behavior compared to the past 2,5 years, but I haven't seen any sincere actions yet, simply an awareness, perhaps even a bit more, an aknowlegement, which is getting bigger and bigger now.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Follow up with the boys. Validate and assure them that Dad actual is a somewhat different person. That past unrealized trauma(s) have risen and will no longer be ignored.
The boys have seen Dad’s duality. The two (or more) different personalities / emotional states living within him. They know it. Now, it’s time to believe it.
Your boys will do fine with such knowledge and awareness. With such a belief.D

The boys know and believe it. The difference between your XW and my H is that H for a very long time was an in-house MLC'er, which means the children have seen his different personalities numerous times.

Originally Posted by DnJ
To my S20, his Mom is just a different person. A person he is not particularly fond of, nor respects. She is a stranger. A person who’s views and morals he would not invest his time is getting to know, if she weren’t his Mom. Therefore, why just because she is his Mom. I can’t fault his logic. D

TBH, I completely understand his way of thinking.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Validate more. Solve less.D

I struggle with finding the correct responses in regards to validation, and always say too much...

Originally Posted by DnJ
Still, words are words and H can change direction rather quickly.D

Yesterday, after his call, I sent a message to thank him for his openness, that I know this must not have been easy for him to do.

His reply was, isn't this the least I can do? Then 4 hours later the following message,

"I have to get through and I don't have a choice but to look into the eye of the storm."

I didn't sent a response anymore since I don't really understand what he meant with that, so I left it as it is.

An awakening that has lasted for 3 days already... that's the longest he's ever had.
All others lasted max. a few hours of 1 evening.

But I know I have to sail my course. I always find it harder to do so when I see improvement but this time I won't change it.


Me (43) H (42)
M:14 T:18, S17, S14 & S14
4/19 BD1 ILYB & OW1 til 2/20
8/20 Moves abroad for work
12/20 Possible new OW2,wants divorce(no action)
09/21 D in progress (Me)
10/21 Start of H's awakening
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