SSRI's and divorce - Wife doesn't love me anymore

[costanza]

You guys are great, thanks again for the help and quick replies. It's really helpful to read it from people that have been through it.

Need to step out, I'll be back and read it slower later.

Have a good one!

[wayfarer]

Ok so I have a ton of opinions on your sitch but I'm going to keep most of them to myself because most of them aren't particularly kind. But I'll give you some food for thought because that's the best I can muster without scaring you away from this board which I desperately think you need.

Lexapro the generic version of Prozac has been on the market for decades. Like decades, decades. I've been on Prozac. I've been battling depression for 2+ decades. Prozac made me more suicidal than I've ever been in my life. Which is a very common side effect. A well documented side effect. It didn't change me, it affected my brain chemistry in a way that deeply affected what was already there. What you are purporting is that SSRI's completely changed your W's personality or has made her so manic she's acting completely out of character. I don't think that an internet search and a couple of doctor friends are really the end all be all on that. Unless she is undiagnosed bi-polar honestly what you're saying isn't far off from a conspiracy theory and finding a scape goat isn't going to help you or your sitch in any way. And frankly as a woman who's been on MANY, MANY kinds of anti-depressants over the years this feels vaguely insulting. Like women have so little control over their own thoughts and little lady feelings that obviously it must be the crazy lady drugs.

Did you ever consider that this is the first time in years your W has felt like herself? Is there a chance your W has been battling with depression her entire life and this is the first time she's actually felt like herself in a very, very long time, if not ever?

I'm not saying that her being going at night all the time is OK, but if you're "stuck" with the kids at night, who's "stuck" with the kids during the day when they're awake almost the whole time?

Also, you're trying to make a soft science methodolgy a quantitative process. It doesn't work that way. The purpose of the method isn't to trick your wife into wanting to stay married. It's to teach you how to handle the crisis so you stay sane and are able to be the stability your kids need in this process. So while we're on that topic. I see a whole lot about W and the MR I see very very little about you. So what are you 180s in this process?

You can take or leave what I have to say with a grain of salt but you've left a lot of information out of this particularly about your MR and you specifically that leads me to follow my gut and my gut with guys who blame problems on everything but themselves usually get my hackles up. Maybe my vibes are off about this and it's simply because you haven't had the time to explain better. I'm hoping you can offer some clarity so I can be a little more supportive and a little less accusatory.

[wayfarer]

Also I suggest you read this:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2924687&page=9

[SteveLW]

Ok so I have a ton of opinions on your sitch but I'm going to keep most of them to myself because most of them aren't particularly kind. But I'll give you some food for thought because that's the best I can muster without scaring you away from this board which I desperately think you need.

Lexapro the generic version of Prozac has been on the market for decades. Like decades, decades. I've been on Prozac. I've been battling depression for 2+ decades. Prozac made me more suicidal than I've ever been in my life. Which is a very common side effect. A well documented side effect. It didn't change me, it affected my brain chemistry in a way that deeply affected what was already there. What you are purporting is that SSRI's completely changed your W's personality or has made her so manic she's acting completely out of character. I don't think that an internet search and a couple of doctor friends are really the end all be all on that. Unless she is undiagnosed bi-polar honestly what you're saying isn't far off from a conspiracy theory and finding a scape goat isn't going to help you or your sitch in any way. And frankly as a woman who's been on MANY, MANY kinds of anti-depressants over the years this feels vaguely insulting. Like women have so little control over their own thoughts and little lady feelings that obviously it must be the crazy lady drugs.

Did you ever consider that this is the first time in years your W has felt like herself? Is there a chance your W has been battling with depression her entire life and this is the first time she's actually felt like herself in a very, very long time, if not ever?

I'm not saying that her being going at night all the time is OK, but if you're "stuck" with the kids at night, who's "stuck" with the kids during the day when they're awake almost the whole time?

Also, you're trying to make a soft science methodolgy a quantitative process. It doesn't work that way. The purpose of the method isn't to trick your wife into wanting to stay married. It's to teach you how to handle the crisis so you stay sane and are able to be the stability your kids need in this process. So while we're on that topic. I see a whole lot about W and the MR I see very very little about you. So what are you 180s in this process?

You can take or leave what I have to say with a grain of salt but you've left a lot of information out of this particularly about your MR and you specifically that leads me to follow my gut and my gut with guys who blame problems on everything but themselves usually get my hackles up. Maybe my vibes are off about this and it's simply because you haven't had the time to explain better. I'm hoping you can offer some clarity so I can be a little more supportive and a little less accusatory.

As usual, great post wayward! I think a lot of us come to the board thinking we know what the problem is, are convinced of it, and just want to know what to say or do that will fix it. I detect that in constanza and hopefully. constanza you will stick around and learn. I am not qualified to say that the SSRIs aren't the problem. But putting all your eggs in that basket is probably not going to get you where you want to be.

Also, I will admit, I did see a bit of a change in my W after SSRIs as opposed to before. She became a lot more outspoken than she was in the 12 years I knew her prior to the SSRIs. She was always a deeply empathetic person. And while she still has empathy for others, she is much less tolerant of behavior she sees as problematic. I thought I was going to get into a fight at a college football a few years ago because she confronted the drunk millenial behind us that was dropping an f-bomb a second....despite our 9 year-old sitting there. Did it change her personality? I cannot say that. Did I notice behavioral changes? I would be lying to say I did not.

However, what I can now say looking back with the clarity of 20/20 hindsight, is that while I came to this board convinced her SSRIs were the problem (just look at my original thread!!), I can now look back and say without a doubt that they were not the reason for my situation.

[costanza]

If we had to take a guess, what's the success rate of people on here using this approach?

If you are talking about saving your marriage immediately about 5-10% after bomb drop in which the person actually means it.

I'm assuming most people come here in an attempt to make the rocky relationship get back on the rails, right?

Yes

I guess there are also some people that came here looking for a way to cope and move on from the divorce?

Maybe but 99% come to this board to save their marriage

For the people that failed in rekindling the relationship, what's the main reason it failed?

It takes 2 people to make a marriage work and in my case I was the only one willing to try.

Failure to apply the technique correctly or just bigger issues beyond the what the method could achieve?

No I was pretty good at DBing but she had already checked out. Its hard to turn a ship that is full steam ahead.

Did anyone sway completely off course and still succeed?

I think there are a few out of thousands of cases on here.

Reason I ask, from what I gather there are many that swear by the technique, yet still failed, but claim its the only way to get it back.

Again by the time you get here your odds are very low.

The method describes my personality when dating over 12 years ago, it's exactly what I was doing before settling down. Not proud of it, but I was very picky in life and dated a lot of women and hurt many of them. I settled down with my wife/x-wife and had kids much later in life. My past was a bit of an issue with my wife/x-wife, she really had a hard time with the aloofness and cold/hot during the first years of dating. I actually broke off with her after a year, but ended up getting back with her after a 9 month break. I really wanted to be sure of my decision.

Actually you did a very smart thing by dating lots of women to be sure.

It really hurt her and she let me know about it for years.

So the resentment starts to build

Now, what I'm questioning is the whole distancing technique, My wife/x-wife is the most sensitive person I know, she would want me to fight for her, and often mentions how I gave up on her so quick the first time. I've let her down in the past by being hard to get and aloof, if anything, that is one of the things i need to change in myself. I understand the roles are reversed now, and she's the one asking for divorce, I might sound like a broken record, but this is not her.

Ok so what does fighting for her look like to you?

My wife/x-wife is fighting depression and medicated. She is not herself, what kind of person is ok with abandoning that at the first sign of divorce? Especially with kids 2 & 4 involved? Isn't "manning up" about being strong and believing in something no matter the odds and obstacles? That must in some way count for something? Maybe not today, but in a discussion 3, 6 or 24 months from now.

Ok so what does manning up look like to you?

It can't all be that black and white. I'm also hearing lots of "give up the fight with SSRI's" yet I have two Dr's (one is a friend) and a therapist telling me it needs to be investigated and not to ignore the possibility, too much at stake. There are thousands of people on antidepressant boards describing exactly what i'm going through, a tonne of them are people that actually were the ones taking the SSRI's and regretting the decisions they made. How can we all ignore that? Both science and the guinea pigs claim it is in fact an issue. Everything I've read is clear that antidepressants require follow-up and/or therapy in accompaniment, tonnes of people are prescribed them and just check-in yearly for a renewal. How can that possibly be safe?

The truth is you are probably right. You just have to convince her of that. The problem is the more you try to convince her the more she will dig her heels in to prove she is right.

What I want to ask my wife is therapy for herself first, to discuss the situation and changes. I'm hoping the therapist would suggest what my Dr's and therapist recommend which is changing or stopping the SSRI's and alcohol consumption to rule out chemical imbalance. If she does that and still feels the relationship is over, I'll be comfortable moving along knowing we tried and that she's in a better place. Does that make any sense to people here that have gong through this?

Yes. Good luck trying to convince her that she's the problem.

I know I can move on, I won't give up on life, I have too much going for me. However my first choice is to resuscitate the relationship my SSRI'd wife has given up on. 10-20 years from now, I don't want to have to tell my daughters, "ya, your mother wanted a divorce so I accepted, supported her decision and stonewalled her, hah, I sure showed her!". That is not the man or example I want my daughters to know. If anything I want to be the man that tried everything to fight for what he believed and loved, even if that means losing my wife. Does this make any sense to any of you or do i need to reread the book?

Actually giving her what she wants isn't stonewalling her it is actually the most loving and caring thing you could do for her right now.

I absolutely love and appreciate your replies and the questions you come back with even more! Really sheds light on the situation and changes the perspective. You should be paid for this!

[costanza]

I've read the book, and spent many hours on this sight the past few weeks trying to absorb as much as possible. The advice all seems to point to one single approach. If we had to take a guess, what's the success rate of people on here using this approach? I'm assuming most people come here in an attempt to make the rocky relationship get back on the rails, right? I guess there are also some people that came here looking for a way to cope and move on from the divorce?

I will answer your success rate of people on here using the best approach in the way you intended: saving their marriage. Ain't gonna lie, it is low. BUT it is exponentially higher than the alternative which is to hold on tight, pressure and pursue.

Now the real answer is that the success rate is nearly 100%....when you change the goal. The real goal is to come through your sitch healthy, happy and a better person. Almost everyone that DBs does that regardless of what their WAS eventually decides.

Almost everyone comes here wanting to save the marriage. Almost everyone on here eventually realizes that that is not up to them and then decides the better approach is the learn to cope and MOVE FORWARD (not on) with their own life.

For the people that failed in rekindling the relationship, what's the main reason it failed? Failure to apply the technique correctly or just bigger issues beyond the what the method could achieve?

The main reason is that you cannot control other people. Most come here with the hope they can control their spouse in some way, shape or form. The first lesson to learn is that you cannot. Which means even if you do everything right from the minute they drop the D bomb, THEY still get to decide whether to stay or go. It takes two committed people to make a MR work. It only takes one to make a D. So you DB for yourself. SOMETIMES it can help to save your marriage. A lot of times no matter what the WAS is determined to leave. But DBing always helps you move forward with your life, one way or the other!

For the people that succeeded in rekindling the relationship, did you do anything different to this method and approach? Did anyone sway completely off course and still succeed?

Like anything in life these questions are too complex to have a full answer. Again, you are assuming the LBS has any power at all. They do not. The reason LBS feel so helpless is that in 99% of the situations the WAS holds all the power for whether or not the MR continues or ends. So these questions are flawed because they are based on a false belief.

What I can tell you is I've been through twice. I've seen what being sad, mopey, depressed while at the same time being super spouse, doing everything, pressuring and pursuing and doing what came instinctually did. It pushed my W further away. When I pulled back, focused on me, GAL like a madman!, concentrated on 180ing and self-improving to be the best version of myself for me, and to be properly, and lovingly detached, my wife wondered what was different and started to get interested in what was changing.

DBing is not a 100% surefire, do everything right and it will save your marriage approach. But it will save you!! And sometimes the marriage comes along for the ride.

Reason I ask, from what I gather there are many that swear by the technique, yet still failed, but claim its the only way to get it back.

People swear by it because it moves the goalpost from trying to save your marriage to trying to save yourself. Almost everyone that has used DBing tactics has realized how much better their lives were afterward, whether the marriage was saved or not.

The method describes my personality when dating over 12 years ago, it's exactly what I was doing before settling down. Not proud of it, but I was very picky in life and dated a lot of women and hurt many of them. I settled down with my wife/x-wife and had kids much later in life. My past was a bit of an issue with my wife/x-wife, she really had a hard time with the aloofness and cold/hot during the first years of dating. I actually broke off with her after a year, but ended up getting back with her after a 9 month break. I really wanted to be sure of my decision. It really hurt her and she let me know about it for years.

Now, what I'm questioning is the whole distancing technique, My wife/x-wife is the most sensitive person I know, she would want me to fight for her, and often mentions how I gave up on her so quick the first time. I've let her down in the past by being hard to get and aloof, if anything, that is one of the things i need to change in myself. I understand the roles are reversed now, and she's the one asking for divorce, I might sound like a broken record, but this is not her.

My wife/x-wife is fighting depression and medicated. She is not herself, what kind of person is ok with abandoning that at the first sign of divorce? Especially with kids 2 & 4 involved? Isn't "manning up" about being strong and believing in something no matter the odds and obstacles? That must in some way count for something? Maybe not today, but in a discussion 3, 6 or 24 months from now.

It can't all be that black and white. I'm also hearing lots of "give up the fight with SSRI's" yet I have two Dr's (one is a friend) and a therapist telling me it needs to be investigated and not to ignore the possibility, too much at stake. There are thousands of people on antidepressant boards describing exactly what i'm going through, a tonne of them are people that actually were the ones taking the SSRI's and regretting the decisions they made. How can we all ignore that? Both science and the guinea pigs claim it is in fact an issue. Everything I've read is clear that antidepressants require follow-up and/or therapy in accompaniment, tonnes of people are prescribed them and just check-in yearly for a renewal. How can that possibly be safe?

I think you've completely missed the point of DBing. You say you've read the book. You say you've read here. Where did you come up with the idea that DBing is giving up on the marriage? No one has ever said that. I would highly suggest you consider doing more research into these tactics.

Focusing on yourself
GAL
Being the best version of you that you can be through self-improvement
Being detached properly and lovingly (if it helps, google self-differentiation in marriage)
Giving her the time and the space to figure out what she wants

What I want to ask my wife is therapy for herself first, to discuss the situation and changes. I'm hoping the therapist would suggest what my Dr's and therapist recommend which is changing or stopping the SSRI's and alcohol consumption to rule out chemical imbalance. If she does that and still feels the relationship is over, I'll be comfortable moving along knowing we tried and that she's in a better place. Does that make any sense to people here that have gong through this?

My W's doctors and past ICs were all onboard with her two SSRI prescription. It was an uphill battle to get her give those up. In her mind she was suicidal before the SSRIs, and not after. In her mind they saved her life! So essentially my request for her to go off of them was a request for her to give up her life.

I would highly encourage you to step back and look at that quoted paragraph for a minute. "I want to ask my wife......"

So let's role play. Knowing where she is at right now, and her reactions to these types of approaches already, what do you really think her reaction will be? Put yourself in her shoes, and costanza is coming to you, again, and blaming your magical substances on the marital problems: play her and react!

This is the illusion of action playing with your mind. This you focusing too much on her. I think you already have your answer to this question. I think based on what you have posted when you present this plan to her she will tell you it is useless and she wants a D.

I know I can move on, I won't give up on life, I have too much going for me. However my first choice is to resuscitate the relationship my SSRI'd wife has given up on. 10-20 years from now, I don't want to have to tell my daughters, "ya, your mother wanted a divorce so I accepted, supported her decision and stonewalled her, hah, I sure showed her!". That is not the man or example I want my daughters to know. If anything I want to be the man that tried everything to fight for what he believed and loved, even if that means losing my wife. Does this make any sense to any of you or do i need to reread the book?

DBing is not stonewalling. DBing is not giving up. MWD didn't write a book called Divorce Busting to tell LBSs to "give up".

I think you need to reread the book.

Great stuff, thank you so much, you guys are great at explaining the bigger picture.

I can't answer all the questions right now, however the one that sticks out the most to me, is the "focusing on me and detaching". I realize I haven't explained our situation very well and its hard to put it all down in writing, it'd be freakishly long. My wife is not in a great place sometimes. Work is absolutely nuts at the moment and the past few months. She's exhausted from working late nights (from home, not suggesting an affair here). She's rather up/down depending the day and situation. The days/nights i do get out and keep myself busy, she seems to struggle with the load and two kids. So I feel guilty whenever I do leave, I probably shouldn't considering she's willing to do half of it on her own. Also, family and I can see the difference in her after some drinking, it seems to negate the effects of the medication for a short while, so she's a little more of her old self for a little while at least, and actually gets nice, jokes and is affectionate. Until the anxiety kicks in for a day or two following, then the cold SSRI'd version comes back until the next time she drinks.

So all that to say, I feel I'd be abandoning her during a difficult period when she's already at the end of her rope by GALing and focusing on me. Unless i'm being thick and that's part of the point? Help her see how difficult and less fun it is doing it solo part-time?

[BL42]

I absolutely love and appreciate your replies and the questions you come back with even more! Really sheds light on the situation and changes the perspective. You should be paid for this!

I feel for you with the two young kids. So similar to my sitch, with S4 and D1 at BD.

I also wondered about the impact SSRIs/ADs were having on my ExW as well, as well as postpartum depression and her family history/trama in her teenage years. The thing about it is, whether they are factor on her mindset or not, doesn't really matter in terms of your best approach forward. You likely won't be able to reason or logic your way out of it with her; she probably won't listen and will more likely will push back or further away from you. Trust me, I get your mindset trying to "understand/reason/fix", but you're better off dropping your focus on the SSRIs and instead focus completely on yourself and the kids. Work on detachment, work on your 180s, get out and GAL...etc. Get strong and make yourself the best man you can be.

I'm a year and a half ahead of you. Hopefully you don't get divorced like, but I can tell you even if you do I'm in a much better state than a year ago.

[costanza]

Ok so I have a ton of opinions on your sitch but I'm going to keep most of them to myself because most of them aren't particularly kind. But I'll give you some food for thought because that's the best I can muster without scaring you away from this board which I desperately think you need.

Lexapro the generic version of Prozac has been on the market for decades. Like decades, decades. I've been on Prozac. I've been battling depression for 2+ decades. Prozac made me more suicidal than I've ever been in my life. Which is a very common side effect. A well documented side effect. It didn't change me, it affected my brain chemistry in a way that deeply affected what was already there. What you are purporting is that SSRI's completely changed your W's personality or has made her so manic she's acting completely out of character. I don't think that an internet search and a couple of doctor friends are really the end all be all on that. Unless she is undiagnosed bi-polar honestly what you're saying isn't far off from a conspiracy theory and finding a scape goat isn't going to help you or your sitch in any way. And frankly as a woman who's been on MANY, MANY kinds of anti-depressants over the years this feels vaguely insulting. Like women have so little control over their own thoughts and little lady feelings that obviously it must be the crazy lady drugs.

Did you ever consider that this is the first time in years your W has felt like herself? Is there a chance your W has been battling with depression her entire life and this is the first time she's actually felt like herself in a very, very long time, if not ever?

I'm not saying that her being going at night all the time is OK, but if you're "stuck" with the kids at night, who's "stuck" with the kids during the day when they're awake almost the whole time?

Also, you're trying to make a soft science methodolgy a quantitative process. It doesn't work that way. The purpose of the method isn't to trick your wife into wanting to stay married. It's to teach you how to handle the crisis so you stay sane and are able to be the stability your kids need in this process. So while we're on that topic. I see a whole lot about W and the MR I see very very little about you. So what are you 180s in this process?

You can take or leave what I have to say with a grain of salt but you've left a lot of information out of this particularly about your MR and you specifically that leads me to follow my gut and my gut with guys who blame problems on everything but themselves usually get my hackles up. Maybe my vibes are off about this and it's simply because you haven't had the time to explain better. I'm hoping you can offer some clarity so I can be a little more supportive and a little less accusatory.

I've obviously hit a nerve here, I apologize if I did. I did start off with a warning: "It might come off as arrogant, but it's really not meant that way. Perhaps just some of my introverted personality coming out".

I just don't understand why you insinuate "lady drugs", I'm talking about my wife/x-wife on antidepressants, I feel it's a bit much to accuse me of labeling them with women. But then I realized i missed a paragraph when I cut and pasted my post, glad i didn't delete the draft:

One of my closest friends was prescribed an SSRI after his father passed away, he had a really hard time with the loss. When the Dr decided it was time to stop two years later, he "woke up" (his words) and found himself divorced with two kids and a massive mortgage he couldn't afford. He's in therapy trying to understand how it happened and trying put everything back together. He feels antidepressants stole everything from him. I won't even go into details of how he remembers taking care of the kids alone during that time. This is an intelligent, successful and fully functional adult. I also struggled to keep my relationship alive with him during his phase, he just disappeared and couldn't be bothered to keep in touch with any of us. My Doc also prescribed me an SSRI when I told her about my separation, she quickly wrote me up a prescription for sleeping pills and an SSRI. Sorry, but I feel strongly that Dr's are just too quick to prescribe pills as a solution and coping mechanism. My same friend suggested I stay away from them unless I hit total rock bottom and become suicidal. My therapist, also a woman, is the one that suggested I talk to my wife about her looking into changing or stopping the SSRI's.

Honestly, with all the information out there, and after talking to Doc's and Therapists that don't have anything to gain from it, I don't see how anyone can challenge that they can be harmful to SOME people. Claiming that someone is "more themselves" on SSRI's is kind of a stretch. They make you happy, and able to let stuff role off your back with less anxiety, but that does not mean they bring out the "real you". You're boosting someone's serotonin, basically changing their chemical balance. Loads of illicite drugs also do that. They've possibly never had that much serotonin in their systems and changing some behaviors, this isn't a conspiracy theory, regular follow-ups are suggested on the label. My wife has been on them for 14 months with no follow-up. There is also an important difference between someone with anxiety and someone that is suicidal. My wife/xwife was never suicidal. BIG difference there.

I will explain my situation more soon, and I thank you for the feedback. While kinda harsh at times, you did make important points and I will take them with me.

[LH19]

C,

I think what is being pointed out is that there are so many layers going on that focusing solely on the SSRIs is a mistake. I say this all the time and I think it makes people mad, relationships are not about love they are about value and right now your W sees it that her life will be better without you as her husband. Dig down deep and tell us how you contributed to how you got where you at right now.

[SteveLW]

So all that to say, I feel I'd be abandoning her during a difficult period when she's already at the end of her rope by GALing and focusing on me. Unless i'm being thick and that's part of the point? Help her see how difficult and less fun it is doing it solo part-time?

Actually, the point of GAL and focusing on you is much simpler. She has said she wants less of you. So you give that to her.

DBing is counter-intuitive. It goes against our instincts as hunter-gatherers. What I can assure you is that the pursuit you engage in when you meet someone will not work when it comes to your walkaway spouse. If it did this forum wouldn't exist.

However, your logic doesn't make sense when you look at it from a 50k ft view:

=MR isn't going well.
=Wife says she wants a D.
=Husband feels like he is abandoning her by focusing on himself and GAL.
=So he becomes super-husband/dad, always there, letting her go out and live a GGW, engage with OM lifestyle.

Who is abandoning whom?