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Hi all, Long time lurker on this forum, first time post.

I was just wanting to let you all know about my situation and how things are going and hopefully get some advice and support! This is quite a long story, so please bear with me.

[b]Background[/b]

I'm 47 and wife is 45, we have two boys 13 and 8. My wife is Russian and I met her whilst I was working out there. We have been married since 2005 and together since 2002. We have always had a fiery relationship with lots of shouting, criticism, defensiveness from both sides. Back in July 2019 we had a really bad bust up and we didn't speak for months. I started practicing the LRT and things improved to the point that by Christmas 2019 we went on holiday with the boys. During the holiday we shared the same bed and my wife let me touch here while we slept. Things moved along rapidly and by Valentines Day 2020 we where sleeping in the same bed at home and making love regularly. My wife was constantly telling me she loved me and times where good. Looking back now, I realise that I let things move to fast and made too many changes to quickly. I also stopped practising the LRT as I assumed everything was back to normal. How wrong I was!
So COVID arrived around April 2020 and we where in lockdown at home, constantly under each others feet. An argument occurred around August 2020 (I cannot even remember what it was about). The resulted in me moving out of the bedroom and starting to stonewall my wife. She started to stonewall back and basically things went on like this where we didn't talk much until September 2021.
During this period my wife threatened divorce may times, even going as far as completing the papers but not filing them. We live and work in a Muslim country and me wife claims the husband needs to file the divorce (though I believe this is not the case, my interpretation is that she wants me to initiate so I can be seen as the one starting a divorce).

Recently[u][/u]

So I really do not want to loose my wife, family or marriage. Around July 2021 I restarted the LRT and I booked 6 sessions with a divorce busting coach. At the time there was total silence from my wife. Anytime I walked into a room or tried to talk, she immediately left the room. Most of the time she sat in her bedroom with the door closed.
Also several times when we had an argument, my wife has told me she is seeing someone else, since 2018. I have not suspected anything, my wife volunteered this information freely without being asked/questioned. I am not sure how true this is as the information seems to be conflicting. She has also blocked me totally on whastapp and her phone. I have no way to communicate with her.
In addition to seeing the coach, I started reading everything I could (MWD, Gottman, Chapman, etc). I started keeping a solution journal. I watched every video I could. So since I have started doing this there has been some small changes and some large changes. Below is a timeline of what has happened:

3rd August - Wife's Birthday- She stayed in bedroom, then came to me in evening and exploded. Asked for a divorce and said she wants to move back to our home country and leave me here with kids.

11th August - Woke me up in middle of night for a big argument. Said she is having sex with other men. Said 5 men when I asked, then changed it to 1 man. Asked for divorce and said she wants to move to our home country. Total silence at other times.

12th August - 1st session with coach

15th August - Big argument. Said she has been seeing someone since 2018. Says she wants divorce and to move home country. I keep my cool and do not defend myself. Say I want to work on marriage and I am going to counselling. Conversation ends with wife saying if I want to start repair I need to buy her a very expensive handbag.

16th August - Go to buy bag. Wife sits in back on car on way there and way back. Says nothing, not even thankyou.

17th August - 2nd Session with coach. Wife has stayed in bedroom with total silence

24th August - 3rd Session with coach. Another argument starts. Wife repeats she has been seeing someone since 2018 and this is my fault. Said she didn't use a condom with him, but not to worry he is clean. There was no mention of a divorce. As of today. 13th October, this is the last argument we have had. It is also the last mention of any affair or sex with other people or of asking for a divorce.

27th August - I was upstairs in study, wife came in and started talking about problems at her job. This was the most we have spoken in about 1 year. The total silence ended this day.

28th August - The whole family went out for a meal for my sons birthday. I made a plan of how I would behave on this evening and stuck to it. My wife said "thankyou for the meal" when we got home.

30th August – I try to initiate conversation, wife says she is tired. Some silence starts again. Wife is in a bad mood in the evening

31st August – 4th Session with coach

3rd September – Wife comes to birthday party for my son and his friends. I try to socialise with other parents (I am not very good at this). Wife introduces me as her husband. Wife unblocks me on whasapp and calls me on phone to go buy some water for the kids.
Back at home wife stays downstairs in living room all night (first time in months) and watches tv with me, but no conversation

5th September – Wife told me off for destroying kids water bottle by putting it in the dishwasher. I just said ‘ok, my mistake, will pay better attention next time’. Didn’t defend myself and situation didn’t escalate

7th September – We live in a rented house and the contract is coming up for renewal. Wife started to talk about a different house she wanted to move to. Suddenly in the middle of the conversation she said she wanted us to live in two separate flats. I said ‘ok if that is what you want’. She changed again and asked me to find out about the house she wanted to move to

9th September – I sent my first whatapp to her. No response. I decide not to bomabard her with phone calls or whastapp as she may block me again.

17th September – Wife asks can whole family go out for lunch together. We all go and have lunch. Wife stays downstairs in evening and has general conversation with me. As she goes to bed, I say ‘thankyou I had a lovely day’ wife replied ‘thankyou’

19th September – I was in a bad mood, so I went to the study to avoid saying anything I shouldn’t say. Later wife came to study and asked ‘What are you doing?’ I replied pleasantly and she sat down and we talked for about 1 hour

I stopped keeping a timeline around this time. Since the 19th September we speak most evenings. She has even asked about my job and told me about some leftovers that I can have. Sometimes she has sat down beside me and our hands or legs have brushed together and she doesn’t instantly move away. However, we are still in separate bedrooms, but now when she is in her room she leaves the door open a lot. She has asked me to book a holiday with the kids in Europe over Christmas. Next week during half term, we are having a staycation for two nights in a hotel. There has been no relationship talk, as much as I desperately want to talk about us and about what she said about seeing another man.
I think there have been massive improvements and things are on the right track. However I am terrified of pushing things too fast and backsliding on my hard earned achievement, particularly in a moment of anger. I am very scared that I cannot trust myself.
My intention is now not to have any relationship talk until my wife initiates it and not to try and kiss/hug her until she initiates it. Which hopefully she will.
Then sometimes I feel dispirited. Is she only doing this for the kids and she still hates me, or does she really want to work on the marriage? I have to keep reining myself in, I find making a plan of what I will do that evening prevents me from saying something stupid or behaving in a way that will take me away from my goal.

Sorry its been such a long post!


End Date 11th August 2022 - One way or the other!
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Welcome! I am pasting in Cadet's Welcome posting for you.

Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to.
The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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scaredA Offline OP
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So, last night I took my son to his football practice. My younger son had been sick all day and my wife was feeling under the weather in the evening.
Whilst I was out my wife phoned and asked if I could buy some milk. She then said “I have made [son name] spaghetti bolagnese, just the way he like it. If I am in bed when you get home, please get him some, you can also have some too”. This is the first time my wife has made/offered me any food in over one year. I think this is a major step forward!

When I got home my wife wasnt in bed. I ate the food and said it was delicious. My wife said “Good”
We then sat up and talked about a holiday that is being planned over Christmas.

Hi think things are on the right track, but I am terrified about backsliding on my changes. I am also finding it really difficult to detach and not talk about our relationship. Finally, I really dont want things to rush and then forget all about what I want to achieve, which is permenant change and a loving relationship with my wife and children


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scaredA,

Sorry for what's going on in your wife. We've all been there. It's awful. Glad you came here for help though. You'll get through it...

Originally Posted by scaredA
An argument occurred around August 2020 (I cannot even remember what it was about). The resulted in me moving out of the bedroom and starting to stonewall my wife. She started to stonewall back and basically things went on like this where we didn't talk much until September 2021.
Just making sure I have the timeline right. You didn't talk much for over a year? That's a really long time to not talk, especially while living together.

Originally Posted by scaredA
During this period my wife threatened divorce may times, even going as far as completing the papers but not filing them.
If she's threatened divorce and even filled out the paper work I would think this is very serious.

Originally Posted by scaredA
My wife is Russian and I met her whilst I was working out there.
Originally Posted by scaredA
We live and work in a Muslim country and me wife claims the husband needs to file the divorce (though I believe this is not the case, my interpretation is that she wants me to initiate so I can be seen as the one starting a divorce).
So she's Russian and you're living in a Muslim country. Sounds like you're not Russian. Are you from the country you're living in now? Seems like your situation could get complicated legally based on the international aspect. You may want to start understanding the law and where you stand in terms of citizenship, residency, and your kids.

Originally Posted by scaredA
So I really do not want to loose my wife, family or marriage.
I can certainly understand that. Unfortunately it's up to your W at this point, not you.

Originally Posted by scaredA
Around July 2021 I restarted the LRT and I booked 6 sessions with a divorce busting coach. At the time there was total silence from my wife. Anytime I walked into a room or tried to talk, she immediately left the room. Most of the time she sat in her bedroom with the door closed.
What are the coaches telling you in the sessions?

Originally Posted by scaredA
Also several times when we had an argument, my wife has told me she is seeing someone else, since 2018. I have not suspected anything, my wife volunteered this information freely without being asked/questioned. I am not sure how true this is as the information seems to be conflicting.
Seems like usually around here the spouse completely denies an affair until they're absolutely caught red-handed and even then lie about it. If she's telling you she's sleeping with others it sounds like she's really angry/bitter/vengeful towards you.

Originally Posted by scaredA
She has also blocked me totally on whastapp and her phone. I have no way to communicate with her.
Just to clarify...you are living together, correct?

I won't quote all the occurrences, but sounds like she's told you multiple times she's been having an affair with someone since 2018. I'd believe her. This is speculation, but I wonder if the Valentines Day 2020 improvement/sex was related to a fight she had with OM and keeping you on the hook?

What are you doing for yourself? Working out, activities, friends...etc.? Make sure you're doing things to improved your own life.

Sounds like you've moved out of the master bedroom? There's a lot of talk on this board about respect and strength. Right now you're probably acting out of fear and weakness because your W is threatening you with D and affairs. You need to flip that power around. Get strong. Show her you'll be fine without her. Reclaim some of the power. I've seen it suggested many times on here to reclaim the martial bedroom. If she wants to move out, so be it, but why should you be inconvenienced?

Good luck. Keep posting and more people will respond.


Me:39 Ex-W:37
M:7 T: 9
S:6 D:3
BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20
OM1 affair ends: May '20
W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20
W files for D: Jul20
OM2 confirmed: 9/2020
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Originally Posted by scaredA
I think things are on the right track
I think it is too early in the game to tell.
Originally Posted by scaredA
I am terrified about backsliding on my changes.
You control you and your actions. If you don't want to backslide then don't backslide.
Originally Posted by scaredA
I am also finding it really difficult to detach and not talk about our relationship.
Why? Anxiety and fear?
Originally Posted by scaredA
Finally, I really don't want things to rush and then forget all about what I want to achieve, which is permanent change and a loving relationship with my wife and children
Be patient. One way or another you will eventually find out where she stands. Remember that Rome wasn't built in a day.


M:51 W:46
T:22 M:16
S:15 D:11

Don't chase people. Be yourself, do your own thing and work hard. The right people - the ones who really belong in your life - will come to you and stay.- Will Smith
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Originally Posted by scaredA
So, last night I took my son to his football practice. My younger son had been sick all day and my wife was feeling under the weather in the evening.
Whilst I was out my wife phoned and asked if I could buy some milk. She then said “I have made [son name] spaghetti bolagnese, just the way he like it. If I am in bed when you get home, please get him some, you can also have some too”. This is the first time my wife has made/offered me any food in over one year. I think this is a major step forward!

When I got home my wife wasnt in bed. I ate the food and said it was delicious. My wife said “Good”
We then sat up and talked about a holiday that is being planned over Christmas.

Hi think things are on the right track, but I am terrified about backsliding on my changes. I am also finding it really difficult to detach and not talk about our relationship. Finally, I really dont want things to rush and then forget all about what I want to achieve, which is permenant change and a loving relationship with my wife and children

scaredA, if you have been lurking her for a while, been reading and learning from lots of sources, and have had DB coaching sessions, then I will dispense with the usual advice that you already know. You know, GAL, 180s, and detachment. You know all that already.

I would like to focus on one thing that stood out to me:

Originally Posted by scaredA
15th August - Big argument. Said she has been seeing someone since 2018. Says she wants divorce and to move home country. I keep my cool and do not defend myself. Say I want to work on marriage and I am going to counselling. Conversation ends with wife saying if I want to start repair I need to buy her a very expensive handbag.

16th August - Go to buy bag. Wife sits in back on car on way there and way back. Says nothing, not even thankyou.

!

One of the things your research has probably taught you is that women need to respect a man to be attracted to him. sandi, who was an expert in this area, has written volumes on this. Doing things that command respect is very important. That is why the advice here is to not move out of the marital bedroom. If the WS doesn't want to sleep in the same bed then they sleep elsewhere. If the WS is in a PA then you ask them to move out of the marital bedroom. If they refuse, you move them out. Things like that.

So when your W says "If you want to work on the marriage then buy me an expensive handbag." Your answer should have been: "I want to work on the marriage but I will not buy you an expensive handbag." What your WAW/WW was doing here was it is call cake-eating. She say the opportunity to get something she wanted, and she took it. Has she worked on the marriage since this? I know you see a softening, but all of the softening appears to be around you spending money: dinners and lunches together. Trips to Europe. Etc. Where is she actually working on the MR?

Did you running out the next day and buying the handbag mean you were commanding respect? Or did it further erode her respect for you. "All I have to do is say, "if you want to work on the marriage then do this!" and he'll do it!" Not really where you want to be in your marital relationship.

I think you are doing the right thing by not initiating R talks. But when she says "Let's go on a trip to Europe", my answer would be "I am not doing that with a wife that is seeing someone else." Call her bluff. Likely it was another test. "Can I push him to the point of sleeping with 5 other men and still have him ready to buy my expensive things in order to stay together?". See what she is doing here?

I know you do not want a D. However, not getting D'd cannot be your first priority. You have to respect yourself enough to not be walked all over. That is what I see happening her. She snaps her fingers, you jump. Next time she comes up with a great idea to spend a whole bunch of your money, call her out. "Why would we go to Europe for Christmas? You are sleeping with other men and want a D?"

Start standing up for yourself. Command respect. Become a man only a fool would leave.

Yes, she is starting to do things that are a good sign. My only question is whether or not she is doing these because she wants to stay married to you, or because she wants you to spend your money on her.


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Originally Posted by BL42
Just making sure I have the timeline right. You didn't talk much for over a year? That's a really long time to not talk, especially while living together.

Basically yes, there has been some basic conversation around kids. basically my wife sat in the bedroom with the door closed all the time she was at home


Originally Posted by BL42
If she's threatened divorce and even filled out the paper work I would think this is very serious.

I agree, she claims the only reason it hasn't been filed it that she cannot file without husbands permission due to this country following Sharia law. I pretty sure that this is not the case as lawyers have told me so, I have been told you can file by your home country rules if you are both non Muslim.


Originally Posted by BL42
So she's Russian and you're living in a Muslim country. Sounds like you're not Russian. Are you from the country you're living in now? Seems like your situation could get complicated legally based on the international aspect. You may want to start understanding the law and where you stand in terms of citizenship, residency, and your kids.

Yes, I'm Western European. The law here is basically any assets get split by the ratio of who paid for them. But they have no jurisdiction on overseas assets (we own a house back in Europe).


Originally Posted by BL42
Just to clarify...you are living together, correct?

Yes we are in same house


Originally Posted by BL42
I won't quote all the occurrences, but sounds like she's told you multiple times she's been having an affair with someone since 2018. I'd believe her. This is speculation, but I wonder if the Valentines Day 2020 improvement/sex was related to a fight she had with OM and keeping you on the hook?

I'm not sure what to think about the affair. I never suspected or queried her about an affair. All information was volunteered to me. Also, a lot of what she says and does, doesn't make sense. The following all occurred during the same argument:
" I have been seeing him since 2018 and want you to move out so he and I can move to the next level"
"I want to leave this country and move back to Europe and live in our house there"
"I'm not a cheater"
"He is happy with his wife"
"He says nice things to me"
I asked her to prove the affair by showing me his txt message "I delete them as soon as I read them"
"People usually keep these things secret, I am telling you"
"We didn't use condoms, don't worry he is clean"
Two minutes later "We used condoms"
"I have never been with another man since I met you"
"I thought "Why not" when sex came up"
"Now every time I go out you will be worried where I am"
"I don't want to talk about him with you"
"I not going to stop seeing other men"


After this discussion she didn't leave the house, except going to work, for two weeks.

My DB coach suggested I do not ask about or discuss the affair with her. My coach suggests that if my wife brings it up again, I should not ask questions just say "It hurts me very much to hear you say things like that".
The affair has been brought up voluntarily three times. There has been no mention of it since the the 24th August.

Originally Posted by BL42
What are you doing for yourself? Working out, activities, friends...etc.? Make sure you're doing things to improved your own life.

I'm exercising, reading a lot and spending time with my kids.

Originally Posted by BL42
Sounds like you've moved out of the master bedroom? There's a lot of talk on this board about respect and strength. Right now you're probably acting out of fear and weakness because your W is threatening you with D and affairs. You need to flip that power around. Get strong. Show her you'll be fine without her. Reclaim some of the power. I've seen it suggested many times on here to reclaim the martial bedroom. If she wants to move out, so be it, but why should you be inconvenienced?

Good luck. Keep posting and more people will respond.

Yes, I was the one who moved out, over one year ago. She didnt ask me to move out. In fact she asked me to move back in again around about 10 months ago. I refused and said I did not want to. Im not sure if I should make a confrontation about the bedroom at the moment, after two months of no arguments and some improvement in the situation.

I appreciate your advice!


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Originally Posted by LH19
I think it is too early in the game to tell.

Yes, Im not sure, but I can see some signs of at least softening

Originally Posted by LH19
You control you and your actions. If you don't want to backslide then don't backslide.

Easier said than done. I'm worried for two reasons:
1) Loosing myself in a moment of anger
2) Becoming complacent and forgetting to apply the lessons I have learnt (This is what happened the previous time and because things improved so fast and everything went back as it was. I really want to be slow and steady.

Originally Posted by LH19
I am also finding it really difficult to detach and not talk about our relationship.
Why? Anxiety and fear?

Mostly longing contact with my wife. I am really trying hard not to initiate any conversation with here, or appear to be hanging around wanting to talk to her. For example I am upstairs writing this in the study with the door closed. The kids are downstairs. I have just heard my wife walk downstairs and I feel the urge to go downstairs and see if she is staying downstairs or going out. If she is going up, is she all dressed up or just going to the shops. I struggle to control this urge, even though I know it makes me appear needy and clingy.

Originally Posted by LH19
Be patient. One way or another you will eventually find out where she stands. Remember that Rome wasn't built in a day.

Thanks, I really appreciate your advice. I need to work on my patience!


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Originally Posted by SteveLW
One of the things your research has probably taught you is that women need to respect a man to be attracted to him. sandi, who was an expert in this area, has written volumes on this. Doing things that command respect is very important. That is why the advice here is to not move out of the marital bedroom. If the WS doesn't want to sleep in the same bed then they sleep elsewhere. If the WS is in a PA then you ask them to move out of the marital bedroom. If they refuse, you move them out. Things like that.

So when your W says "If you want to work on the marriage then buy me an expensive handbag." Your answer should have been: "I want to work on the marriage but I will not buy you an expensive handbag." What your WAW/WW was doing here was it is call cake-eating. She say the opportunity to get something she wanted, and she took it. Has she worked on the marriage since this? I know you see a softening, but all of the softening appears to be around you spending money: dinners and lunches together. Trips to Europe. Etc. Where is she actually working on the MR?

Did you running out the next day and buying the handbag mean you were commanding respect? Or did it further erode her respect for you. "All I have to do is say, "if you want to work on the marriage then do this!" and he'll do it!" Not really where you want to be in your marital relationship.

I think you are doing the right thing by not initiating R talks. But when she says "Let's go on a trip to Europe", my answer would be "I am not doing that with a wife that is seeing someone else." Call her bluff. Likely it was another test. "Can I push him to the point of sleeping with 5 other men and still have him ready to buy my expensive things in order to stay together?". See what she is doing here?

I know you do not want a D. However, not getting D'd cannot be your first priority. You have to respect yourself enough to not be walked all over. That is what I see happening her. She snaps her fingers, you jump. Next time she comes up with a great idea to spend a whole bunch of your money, call her out. "Why would we go to Europe for Christmas? You are sleeping with other men and want a D?"

Start standing up for yourself. Command respect. Become a man only a fool would leave.

Yes, she is starting to do things that are a good sign. My only question is whether or not she is doing these because she wants to stay married to you, or because she wants you to spend your money on her.


I agree the "bag incident" probably was not what I should have done. However, this came after nearly one year of not speaking to my wife and at a time that there had been total silence for nearly two months. Since this time we are at least on speaking terms.

I moved out of the marital bedroom around 1 year ago. About 10 months ago she asked me back and I refused.

I'm not sure about making a fuss about this at the minute. From what I know about my wife if I make a big argument about anything at the moment she will retreat back into her shell and go back to staying in her bedroom all day.


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Ok, right now I feel like crap. After reading you guys responses I have done nothing but worry that there is an affair going. My wife went out Friday night, really dresses up to the nines. She was out from around this 7:30 and arrived home about 11 pm. I was in bed when she got back, but she sat up with my oldest son and went to bed around 1am.

There has been no further mention from her about the affair (and hasnt been for two months - it was talked about during three arguments and all information was volunteered, I didnt even ask if she was having an affair, it was just told to me that she was) but for some reason it is going over and over in my head and I cannot really sleep or focus at work!

Should I ask about it, or tell her how i feel? I think if I confront her she will go back to not speaking again and sitting in her room with the door closed. At least there is some communication currently.


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Originally Posted by ScaredA
Ok, right now I feel like crap. After reading you guys responses I have done nothing but worry that there is an affair going. My wife went out Friday night, really dresses up to the nines.
I imagine. You are just starting to process what while you were stonewalling her, she may have been getting support, romance, sexual release, etc. from others OR (less likely) she's pretending to hurt you.

Originally Posted by ScaredA
I'm not sure about making a fuss about this at the minute. From what I know about my wife if I make a big argument about anything at the moment she will retreat back into her shell and go back to staying in her bedroom all day.
Steve wasn't suggesting that you have a big argument. I think a big argument would turn off nearly anyone. He was suggesting you take back the master bedroom. Arguments require two people. You control whether you have an argument.

Originally Posted by ScaredA
1) Loosing myself in a moment of anger
Maybe this is why you fear an argument--it sounds like you lose control when you're angry? That sounds scary. I assume this is a 180. How's your progress coming along with this one--reading books, taking classes, etc?

Originally Posted by ScaredA
Should I ask about it, or tell her how i feel? I think if I confront her she will go back to not speaking again and sitting in her room with the door closed. At least there is some communication currently.
a) As for asking, she gave you inconsistent stories about her AP, so I'm not sure why you'd believe her, and what would you hope to gain? b) As for venting, venting at her won't help build a relationship between you two. This does tie in with improving anger management. Can you turn to boxing, Fortnite, journaling, etc. to express what you're feeling? I don't see how (a) or (b) would help you.



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Originally Posted by ScaredA
We have always had a fiery relationship with lots of shouting, criticism, defensiveness from both sides. Back in July 2019 we had a really bad bust up and we didn't speak for months. I started practicing the LRT and things improved to the point that by Christmas 2019 we went on holiday with the boys. During the holiday we shared the same bed and my wife let me touch here while we slept. Things moved along rapidly and by Valentines Day 2020 we where sleeping in the same bed at home and making love regularly. My wife was constantly telling me she loved me and times where good. Looking back now, I realise that I let things move to fast and made too many changes to quickly. I also stopped practising the LRT as I assumed everything was back to normal. How wrong I was!
So COVID arrived around April 2020 and we where in lockdown at home, constantly under each others feet. An argument occurred around August 2020 (I cannot even remember what it was about). The resulted in me moving out of the bedroom and starting to stonewall my wife. She started to stonewall back and basically things went on like this where we didn't talk much until September 2021.

ScaredA, I want to call out that this dynamic of stonewalling / not speaking to your wife for months or years at a time is very unusual. You're the only situation where I recall a full year of not talking to their spouse while living together--that alone would sink many relationships. Since you're using terms like "stonewalling, criticism, defensiveness", etc. it sounds like you're familiar with Gottman's Four Horseman of the Apocalypse. As you work through these, it should improve your relationships a lot.



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Originally Posted by scaredA
I'm not sure about making a fuss about this at the minute. From what I know about my wife if I make a big argument about anything at the moment she will retreat back into her shell and go back to staying in her bedroom all day.

SA, we all struggled with this. Trying not to make wave. Don't want to upset her. Etc.

Here is the thing: You cannot nice her back. That simple truth could save your marriage. Wives go wayward due to a lack of respect for their husbands. Read all of sandi's writings here that you can find. She explains it perfectly.

So it is up to you. You can have your W like you, and walk all over you. Or you can have her respect you, and eventually be attracted to you (maybe, there are no guarantees). But together or D'd, trust me, respecting you is more important than liking you.


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Originally Posted by SteveLW
SA, we all struggled with this. Trying not to make wave. Don't want to upset her. Etc.

Here is the thing: You cannot nice her back. That simple truth could save your marriage. Wives go wayward due to a lack of respect for their husbands. Read all of sandi's writings here that you can find. She explains it perfectly.

So it is up to you. You can have your W like you, and walk all over you. Or you can have her respect you, and eventually be attracted to you (maybe, there are no guarantees). But together or D'd, trust me, respecting you is more important than liking you.

Steve, I'm not trying to be awkward or disregard your advice. I just really do not know how to do it your way - i.e. take back the marital bedroom.

In the past my wife has complained about several issues:
1) Not doing enough with the kids
2) Being critical/contemptuous
3) Not trusting me

I thought if I can improve these three aspects, some respect with be gained.

For 1) I'm now taking my eldest son to his soccer practice, I'm collecting my youngest son from his tutor and doing his homework with him everyday, I'm taking both kids to the pool on a Thursday night

For 2) I trying to practice active listening with the wife, not interrupting and not giving advice unless asked. When she has a go at me (which hasn't happened for two months), I have been validating her feelings and saying "However I do not agree with them". I'm trying to consult her on major decisions, which I would have just dealt with on my own previously without even talking to her (i.e. our rental property back in Europe).

For 3) I'm trying to follow through and actually do stuff that I say I will do (we had an incident with our eldest son at school a few weeks ago, I tried to show that I was reliable and on her side over the issue). When she has been asking for help, if I can do it, I have just been doing it (previously I would have moaned "Why cant you do it", "I'm busy". If I genuinely cannot do it, I have been saying so and than asking "Is there any other way I can help or some way we can do it together". i.e. She stopped taking my youngest son to his tutor over the summer. I used a soft start-up when asking about it "Is there any way WE could make an arrangement to get him to tutor", She agreed and she now takes him every week.

I'm not sure, is this gaining respect or being a doormat?

I feel like we have made major steps in softening, from near total silence for 12 months and permanently staying in her bedroom with the door shut, to nearly 2 months of talking to each other. Currently there is NO relationship talk and my DB coach recommended I do not discuss the affair my wife says she is having (though is has not been mentioned by my wife for two months).

My thought plan is that once she is ready to discuss the relationship, which I am hoping for by Christmas if this continue on the same trajectory, then we can discuss how things need to improve and I can be a bit more forceful in stating my needs.

I really appreciate your advice, but just seeking some clarity


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Originally Posted by CWarrior
I imagine. You are just starting to process what while you were stonewalling her, she may have been getting support, romance, sexual release, etc. from others OR (less likely) she's pretending to hurt you.

In my opinion, which I am aware may just be denial, I think she is trying to hurt me as she is very hurt. I think there may be a EA and there may also have been one of sex on a night out (I'm not sure about that). For a full blown affair I really don't know when she would be doing that. She works at the school where my youngest son attends, so she takes and brings him home, so she never stay "late at work". She goes out a lot at the weekends, but that has always been the case, I have never stopped her going out partying, but she is always home by 1 am at the very latest. Some weekends she doesnt go out at all.

This is all assuming, I don't really know is the answer.


Originally Posted by CWarrior
Steve wasn't suggesting that you have a big argument. I think a big argument would turn off nearly anyone. He was suggesting you take back the master bedroom. Arguments require two people. You control whether you have an argument.

When me being in a different has been the status quo for so long, I really don't know how to even attempt this without her getting pissed off. She will go to another room, no problem, but then she will sit in that room with the door closed for the next few months. She has a very strong character and it has taken a long time to get to the point where we are at least talking to each other. I really don't want to set things back to how they were around August (total silence, in bedroom with door closed)

Originally Posted by CWarrior
Maybe this is why you fear an argument--it sounds like you lose control when you're angry? That sounds scary. I assume this is a 180. How's your progress coming along with this one--reading books, taking classes, etc?

I don't get violent, but when I get flooded I say a lot of very offensive stuff. "I'm sick of you", "You should move out of MY house", etc. My wife can also do the same. I regret this later, but never apologise straight away.

I am working on this, reading books, watching videos, making a log of how I am going to respond in certain situations so I am prepared for them before they happen.

My real worry I that I will get complacent if things start to improve, and forget what I should be doing and cause everything to go back to square one!

Originally Posted by CWarrior
a) As for asking, she gave you inconsistent stories about her AP, so I'm not sure why you'd believe her, and what would you hope to gain? b) As for venting, venting at her won't help build a relationship between you two. This does tie in with improving anger management. Can you turn to boxing, Fortnite, journaling, etc. to express what you're feeling? I don't see how (a) or (b) would help you.

You are totally right about A and B. I did neither when I got home. I made a plan of how I would behave and stuck to it. One of the bullet points was that "I will not start relationship talk or discuss the affair"

Instead of spending the evening arguing about her affair and how bad I feel, we tidied up the kitchen together, split the making of the kids school lunches and then sat down in the living room and talked till 10 pm. The night finished much better than it would have done if I brought up the affair. I think there will be time to talk about that in the future, but for now I just need to keep my feelings to myself.


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Originally Posted by scaredA
Originally Posted by SteveLW
SA, we all struggled with this. Trying not to make wave. Don't want to upset her. Etc.

Here is the thing: You cannot nice her back. That simple truth could save your marriage. Wives go wayward due to a lack of respect for their husbands. Read all of sandi's writings here that you can find. She explains it perfectly.

So it is up to you. You can have your W like you, and walk all over you. Or you can have her respect you, and eventually be attracted to you (maybe, there are no guarantees). But together or D'd, trust me, respecting you is more important than liking you.

Steve, I'm not trying to be awkward or disregard your advice. I just really do not know how to do it your way - i.e. take back the marital bedroom.

In the past my wife has complained about several issues:
1) Not doing enough with the kids
2) Being critical/contemptuous
3) Not trusting me

I thought if I can improve these three aspects, some respect with be gained.

Those are all things you SHOULD improve on! I do not see 1-3 above being things that also cannot be done while at the same time learning to command respect.

Originally Posted by scaredA
For 1) I'm now taking my eldest son to his soccer practice, I'm collecting my youngest son from his tutor and doing his homework with him everyday, I'm taking both kids to the pool on a Thursday night

Great! Being the best dad that you can be is awesome and something you should do no matter what your WAW decides.

Originally Posted by scaredA
For 2) I trying to practice active listening with the wife, not interrupting and not giving advice unless asked. When she has a go at me (which hasn't happened for two months), I have been validating her feelings and saying "However I do not agree with them". I'm trying to consult her on major decisions, which I would have just dealt with on my own previously without even talking to her (i.e. our rental property back in Europe).

So a couple of improvements here. I love the active listening. You do that by validating her feelings. Do not point out that you do not agree with them. Validating is not about agreeing or disagreeing, it is about understanding.

When she has a go at you, validate. If she continues to yell or belittle you calmly but firmly say: "I refuse to be spoken to in this manner. And then walkaway. THAT is commanding respect.

Originally Posted by scaredA
For 3) I'm trying to follow through and actually do stuff that I say I will do (we had an incident with our eldest son at school a few weeks ago, I tried to show that I was reliable and on her side over the issue). When she has been asking for help, if I can do it, I have just been doing it (previously I would have moaned "Why cant you do it", "I'm busy". If I genuinely cannot do it, I have been saying so and than asking "Is there any other way I can help or some way we can do it together". i.e. She stopped taking my youngest son to his tutor over the summer. I used a soft start-up when asking about it "Is there any way WE could make an arrangement to get him to tutor", She agreed and she now takes him every week.

This is all pretty good, but in the respect category, make sure she is doing her part too. Sometimes the help is not doing it for her but asking her how you can help her so she can do her part. "I can't take son to tutoring!" "I hear that you are overloaded, but son needs to get to tutoring. What can I do to help so that you can get him there?"

Originally Posted by scaredA
I'm not sure, is this gaining respect or being a doormat?

This is all fine. However, see upgrades that can be made on #2.

Originally Posted by scaredA
I feel like we have made major steps in softening, from near total silence for 12 months and permanently staying in her bedroom with the door shut, to nearly 2 months of talking to each other. Currently there is NO relationship talk and my DB coach recommended I do not discuss the affair my wife says she is having (though is has not been mentioned by my wife for two months).

I agree with your DB coach, R talks do not help. Do not fall to the temptation to start them. 2 months, and 12 months are DROPS in the bucket. This could take years to resolve completely. Do not get hung up on time, just keep doing what you need to do from day to day.

Originally Posted by scaredA
My thought plan is that once she is ready to discuss the relationship, which I am hoping for by Christmas if this continue on the same trajectory, then we can discuss how things need to improve and I can be a bit more forceful in stating my needs.

Remember, patience. Do not hope for an R talk by Christmas. Just let things play out. Drop expectations. Keep your head down and keep working.

Originally Posted by scaredA
I really appreciate your advice, but just seeking some clarity

I am just a dumb slob, no need to prioritize my advice. Your sitch is yours. You have to do what you think is right or the wise thing. Maybe too much time has passed on the master bedroom issue. Usually I would advise to take it back. Just move back in, and tonight get in bed. When she says something just say "I have decided I like sleeping here." If she decides to sleep elsewhere fine, do not make an issue of it. However, if that is not a step you are willing to take, then do not. It is entirely up to you.

WHat I can tell you is that giving up the bedroom, rushing out to buy her a bag because she threatens to leave otherwise are not ways you command respect.


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Originally Posted by CWarrior
ScaredA, I want to call out that this dynamic of stonewalling / not speaking to your wife for months or years at a time is very unusual. You're the only situation where I recall a full year of not talking to their spouse while living together--that alone would sink many relationships. Since you're using terms like "stonewalling, criticism, defensiveness", etc. it sounds like you're familiar with Gottman's Four Horseman of the Apocalypse. As you work through these, it should improve your relationships a lot.

Agreed, you are right to call me out on it - it is childish and ridiculous. Not wanting to cast blame, but the usual merry go round is:

1) Wife criticises me
2) I stonewall and don't apologise
3) My becomes critical about my silence
4) I retreat further into myself
5) Cycle continues

I'm reading a lot of Gottman at the minute. My main strategy boils down to a few things:

1) Be angry, but not rude/critical
2) Don't be defensive if the argument is over nothing important
3) Always apologise immediately if I make a mistake - which I will make regularly in this process
4) Never go to bed with bad feelings with any of my family
5) Don't initiate conversation/send WhatsApp
6) Give my wife lots of physical and emotional space


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Originally Posted by scaredA
My thought plan is that once she is ready to discuss the relationship, which I am hoping for by Christmas if this continue on the same trajectory, then we can discuss how things need to improve and I can be a bit more forceful in stating my needs.
I would tread carefully here my friend. Sounds like you weren't the greatest husband and right now she could give two $hits about your needs. It's going to take a really long time for her to believe any of these changes. Keep doing your share with the kids without over doing it. This is a marathon not a sprint. If she is in an active affair none of this will matter anyway. Don't worry to much about the bedroom right now IMO it's the most overrated advice given on this board. What are you doing for you? Are you getting out of the house? Hobbies? Friends?

Originally Posted by scaredA
I have been validating her feelings and saying "However I do not agree with them"
Think you need to read up on validation. you saying that is just pi$$ing her off. Example below:

W: I want a divorce
S: I understand you feel that way

That's it no other response needed. It takes awhile to get the hang off it especially if you were typically argumentative and dismissive.

Remember you are playing the long game.


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Originally Posted by LH19
I would tread carefully here my friend. Sounds like you weren't the greatest husband and right now she could give two $hits about your needs. It's going to take a really long time for her to believe any of these changes. Keep doing your share with the kids without over doing it. This is a marathon not a sprint. If she is in an active affair none of this will matter anyway. Don't worry to much about the bedroom right now IMO it's the most overrated advice given on this board. What are you doing for you? Are you getting out of the house? Hobbies? Friends?

I agree, I am having no relationship talk or affair talk at the minute.

As for me, I'm reading a lot, going out at the weekends (even if I'm on my own, I've been getting dressed up and going to the cinema). I been exercising- jogging and out on my bicycle, spending time with the kids. I've found a club that enjoys the same hobby as me and I have gotten in touch with them. I am also spending a lot of time on the divorce busting process, I'm an engineer so I am pretty methodical. I have been writing a solution journal, writing down list of goals in the DB process, all of which I have hit so far. I have been copying out tracts of Gottman and MWD books so it sinks into my stupid head!

Originally Posted by LH19
Think you need to read up on validation. you saying that is just pi$$ing her off. Example below:

W: I want a divorce
S: I understand you feel that way

That's it no other response needed. It takes awhile to get the hang off it especially if you were typically argumentative and dismissive.

Remember you are playing the long game.

I take your point, must try harder!


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Originally Posted by SteveLW
Those are all things you SHOULD improve on! I do not see 1-3 above being things that also cannot be done while at the same time learning to command respect.

Originally Posted by scaredA
For 1) I'm now taking my eldest son to his soccer practice, I'm collecting my youngest son from his tutor and doing his homework with him everyday, I'm taking both kids to the pool on a Thursday night

Great! Being the best dad that you can be is awesome and something you should do no matter what your WAW decides.

I'm trying hard, especially for the kids sake. I always spent lots of time with the kids - movies, eating out, playing boardgames. However, my wife specifically said I do not do enough in the categories above. So I am doing what I used to do and also trying to improve in the areas she brought up.


Originally Posted by SteveLW
So a couple of improvements here. I love the active listening. You do that by validating her feelings. Do not point out that you do not agree with them. Validating is not about agreeing or disagreeing, it is about understanding.

When she has a go at you, validate. If she continues to yell or belittle you calmly but firmly say: "I refuse to be spoken to in this manner. And then walkaway. THAT is commanding respect.

Point noted, I will stop the saying I do not agree. The other night she shouted a little bit about something I didn't do correctly in front on my son. I didn't respond, I just stood up, left the room and went upstairs (this for me is very hard to do as I am usually argumentative and become defensive and critical in this situation). Later that evening she come upstairs and asked something completely trivial, which was her way of saying sorry and showing the lines of communication are still open. In summary, I'm trying to do what you suggest above


Originally Posted by SteveLW
This is all pretty good, but in the respect category, make sure she is doing her part too. Sometimes the help is not doing it for her but asking her how you can help her so she can do her part. "I can't take son to tutoring!" "I hear that you are overloaded, but son needs to get to tutoring. What can I do to help so that you can get him there?"

I've noticed that she has started doing some cleaning around the house and doing some laundry. She had stopped doing anything at all. She is also spending some more time doing kids homework.

My wife has a very strong character (on the outside). If something pisses her off she can hold onto it for a long time (she is Russian). She will very rarely admit she is wrong, so these small signs of improvement are what I see as her way of saying sorry or I am noticing the changes you are trying to make. Having said that she is in a bad mood tonight, she tried to start an argument earlier about putting food in to large a size of plastic container. I was about to say "But I couldn't find any smaller ones", instead I just said "Ok, will do next time", then I have gone upstairs out of her way. My DB coach says "Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?", this was a good example of that. What's the point of being right about a plastic container??????

Originally Posted by SteveLW
I agree with your DB coach, R talks do not help. Do not fall to the temptation to start them. 2 months, and 12 months are DROPS in the bucket. This could take years to resolve completely. Do not get hung up on time, just keep doing what you need to do from day to day.

Don't get me wrong, I want to do what it takes to restore my relationship with my wife, but I do not want my old relationship, in fact I cannot have my old relationship back, I need a new better relationship, or we will just be divorced in 2,3,5 years rather than right now


Originally Posted by SteveLW
Remember, patience. Do not hope for an R talk by Christmas. Just let things play out. Drop expectations. Keep your head down and keep working.

Yes I need to tattoo patience do not initiate conversation on my forehead. Christmas is a long time away, my near term goals are over a month. The main ones at the minute are:

1) Maintain peace in the house until November
2) Do not say anything critical until November



Originally Posted by scaredA
I am just a dumb slob, no need to prioritize my advice. Your sitch is yours. You have to do what you think is right or the wise thing. Maybe too much time has passed on the master bedroom issue. Usually I would advise to take it back. Just move back in, and tonight get in bed. When she says something just say "I have decided I like sleeping here." If she decides to sleep elsewhere fine, do not make an issue of it. However, if that is not a step you are willing to take, then do not. It is entirely up to you.

WHat I can tell you is that giving up the bedroom, rushing out to buy her a bag because she threatens to leave otherwise are not ways you command respect.

I agree, the only thing I would say was that this helped communication to restart. It gained no respect at all, but without any communication I do not think things were ever going to improve


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Originally Posted by ScaredA
1) Be angry, but not rude/critical
I love this. Apply to all relationships and people.

Originally Posted by ScaredA
2) Don't be defensive if the argument is over nothing important
Drop defensiveness, period? Apply to all relationships and people.

Originally Posted by ScaredA
3) Always apologise immediately if I make a mistake - which I will make regularly in this process
If you make an obvious blunder, apologize! But, tread lightly. Books on communication suggest slower apologies where you take the time to understand where you went wrong, how it impacted them, and how to avoid it in the future are more effective than quickly apologizing or over-apologizing which tend to be more for you than for them.

Originally Posted by ScaredA
4) Never go to bed with bad feelings with any of my family
I used to follow this mantra, but when I'm tired and upset I can be terrible at communicating effectively--listening, validating, assessing the importance of something, articulating what I need. It's entirely compatible with Gottman to stick a pin in it, sleep, and discuss the next day. Just don't let it slide into stonewalling or resentment.

Originally Posted by ScaredA
5) Don't initiate conversation/send WhatsApp
Hmm. Maybe initiate some percentage of the communication (<=50%) so all the effort is not on her?

Originally Posted by ScaredA
6) Give my wife lots of physical and emotional space
I love this.



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Originally Posted by scaredA
Point noted, I will stop the saying I do not agree. The other night she shouted a little bit about something I didn't do correctly in front on my son. I didn't respond, I just stood up, left the room and went upstairs (this for me is very hard to do as I am usually argumentative and become defensive and critical in this situation). Later that evening she come upstairs and asked something completely trivial, which was her way of saying sorry and showing the lines of communication are still open. In summary, I'm trying to do what you suggest above
But it's important to communicate to her in a calm manner that being abusive to to you is unacceptable.

Originally Posted by scaredA
Don't get me wrong, I want to do what it takes to restore my relationship with my wife, but I do not want my old relationship, in fact I cannot have my old relationship back, I need a new better relationship, or we will just be divorced in 2,3,5 years rather than right now
This is very good observation.

Originally Posted by scaredA
1) Maintain peace in the house until November
2) Do not say anything critical until November
What do you plan on doing and saying in November?


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Originally Posted by scaredA
Point noted, I will stop the saying I do not agree. The other night she shouted a little bit about something I didn't do correctly in front on my son. I didn't respond, I just stood up, left the room and went upstairs (this for me is very hard to do as I am usually argumentative and become defensive and critical in this situation). Later that evening she come upstairs and asked something completely trivial, which was her way of saying sorry and showing the lines of communication are still open. In summary, I'm trying to do what you suggest above
I'm glad you resisted the urge to shout back! Now, just upgrade with Steve's "I refuse to be spoken to in this manner." before walking away and you're solid. The goal isn't to switch from being aggressive (shouting at her) to passive (accepting being shouted at). Don't shout, and don't accept being shouted at.

Be a strong, unscared ScaredA. wink



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scaredA,
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Originally Posted by scaredA
In the past my wife has complained about several issues:
1) Not doing enough with the kids
2) Being critical/contemptuous
3) Not trusting me
Those are all things you SHOULD improve on! I do not see 1-3 above being things that also cannot be done while at the same time learning to command respect.
Completely agreed, but with the caveat of dropping any expectation that just because you start addressing the items and "fixing" stuff she'll quickly come back to you. DO spend more time with the kids. DO drop the criticism and contempt. DO act more trustworthy. But...do that for yourself and your children. Don't assume that because all of a sudden you're addressing her list it'll change things over night because 1) she may not trust your overnight changes will continue in the long term and 2) she may just be making a list to justify her affair and/or wanting the divorce.

Point is...these items aren't necessarily a check list that will ensure she turns back to you, and all of a sudden "doing everything right" isn't going to fix things, so make improvements for yourself over time because it's the right thing to do.

Originally Posted by scaredA
In my opinion, which I am aware may just be denial, I think she is trying to hurt me as she is very hurt. I think there may be a EA and there may also have been one of sex on a night out (I'm not sure about that). For a full blown affair I really don't know when she would be doing that. She works at the school where my youngest son attends, so she takes and brings him home, so she never stay "late at work". She goes out a lot at the weekends, but that has always been the case, I have never stopped her going out partying, but she is always home by 1 am at the very latest. Some weekends she doesnt go out at all.
Hate to say this, but you know how often on here I've read "I don't know when she could have time for an affair"? They're find a way / time for it if they want. My ExW did the early/late to work thing, but was also sneaking around IN the office DURING work with OM1. They would hook up and listen for anyone coming down the halls. She was at her mom's house for "time for herself" over mother's day weekend, but . Besides the PA, she'd text OM1 late at night while putting my son to bed and even while she was in the same room as me.

Point is...don't assume because you think her time is accounted for she's not having an affair. They find a way.

Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by scaredA
My thought plan is that once she is ready to discuss the relationship, which I am hoping for by Christmas if this continue on the same trajectory, then we can discuss how things need to improve and I can be a bit more forceful in stating my needs.
I would tread carefully here my friend. Sounds like you weren't the greatest husband and right now she could give two $hits about your needs. It's going to take a really long time for her to believe any of these changes. Keep doing your share with the kids without over doing it. This is a marathon not a sprint.
Yeah...dropping expectations. Don't set yourself up for a timeline you'll end up getting disappointed about. This could take a long time.

Originally Posted by LH19
What are you doing for you? Are you getting out of the house? Hobbies? Friends?
Great question! Make sure you're GAL'ing. Do fun activities and meeting new people makes life a lot more fun (or at least bearable) during these sitches.


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Originally Posted by scaredA
I am also spending a lot of time on the divorce busting process, I'm an engineer so I am pretty methodical.
Just an observation, but it seems like a lot of the sitches have men with engineering/IT/analytical minds as opposed to emotional/passionate minds. Not sure if there's also any correlating with "Nice Guy Syndrome" or "Men are from Mars, Women are Venus" type dynamics? Haven't thought it out (left brain, I know) so maybe I'm way off - just jumped out at me when reading scaredA's comment above and wanted to float it out there.


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"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by scaredA
I am also spending a lot of time on the divorce busting process, I'm an engineer so I am pretty methodical.
Just an observation, but it seems like a lot of the sitches have men with engineering/IT/analytical minds as opposed to emotional/passionate minds. Not sure if there's also any correlating with "Nice Guy Syndrome" or "Men are from Mars, Women are Venus" type dynamics? Haven't thought it out (left brain, I know) so maybe I'm way off - just jumped out at me when reading scaredA's comment above and wanted to float it out there.
Yes he is trying to analyze and understand everything so that he can build it into a rational model so that it will never, ever happen to him again. If he can avoid doing X, then Y will never happen. In addition, he wants to unlock this puzzle, to deconstruct it so he can find the solution that will allow him to rebuild it. Finding that key would provide immense comfort.

His brain has convinced itself that getting his W back, or getting W to apologize and declare a desire to have him back is the very best and fastest way to restore his feeling of being in control.

With the benefit of time and distance, he'll realize that's what it's really all about, it's about regaining the ability to feel in control of his life and his future. It really has very little to do with his W or who she is as a person, she's a lever to get him what he wants, but that's really just an illusion.


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What works is counter-intuitive. Having an awareness to respond differently is important. For example, your normal behavior is to argue. Learning to listen and validate when that feeling to argue comes up, takes a lot of focus initially. At some point it becomes natural to validate rather than argue. Validation is about understanding her emotions. Arguing is about you and controlling.


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So I have confirmed today that there is a physical affair. It has been going on from at least December 2020.

I found she had a burner phone when she was out at work. I could see the whatapps chats from December until at least 20th July this year. The was also a note on her phone dated 6th October "You made me the impression I need to chase you, I never chase a man. Im interested at someone only if it goes two ways" To me this appears they had a falling out around this time, it would time in with the big arguments that we had around then and her staying in bed on day on her birthday, 3rd August. Also I found out who it is, I saw his picture and phone number. No-one I know, I think she has met him on a dating site. The scumbag is also married with 3 kids. I pity his wife and children.

I also found on that phone an alternative WhatsApp account, were she has been talking to and meeting other men, one as recently as Friday 15th, although these appear to not have gone any further at this point.

I am really having to stuggle not to say anything tonight, as I think this would let her know I am aware of the burner phone.

Im really not sure how to proceed. It seems even with all my efforts, she has no desire to change or to finish her affair.

I was thinking of asking like this:

Me: I really dont want to have an argument, but are we trying to repair our marriage?
W: Yes/No
Me: If no, "I dont think we can go any further forward"
Me: If yes,"Are you still seeing anyone else, if you are we cannot really reapair anything"


Im really not sure what to do, I havent eaten all day and feel totally sick.

Thinking about it, im not sure if the above will do anything. Should I just follow MWD advice and dont talk about it, and just keep working on myself and see how things change in the future?

I feel terrible!


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Originally Posted by scaredA
So I have confirmed today that there is a physical affair. It has been going on from at least December 2020.
I am sorry scared unfortunately 95% of these have other people involved.

Originally Posted by scaredA
Im really not sure how to proceed. It seems even with all my efforts, she has no desire to change or to finish her affair.
You are correct. She is done and has no desire to work on the marriage.

Originally Posted by scaredA
Me: I really dont want to have an argument, but are we trying to repair our marriage?
W: Yes/No
Me: If no, "I dont think we can go any further forward"
Me: If yes,"Are you still seeing anyone else, if you are we cannot really repair anything"
No this is weak. Plus she will lie.

I would recommend that you not confront her because it won't help.

You will expect her to be apologetic and sad but she will not be, and that will only add to your anger and make things worse for you.

We are conditioned by books and movies to believe that a spouse caught cheating will be remorseful and beg for forgiveness and we imagine that it will feel great to have our wayward spouse in that place after all they've done to us. In reality they most often get belligerent and accusatory when confronted which just makes everything worse.

You will not find the peace you seek through confrontation unfortunately.

She's going to "do her thing" no matter what you do, say, or feel about it. She doesn't need your permission or your blessing, which is a difficult thing to get your head around in the context of a relationship that used to be a partnership. It's not anymore, and the old rules don't apply.

Keep doing what you're doing. You have 0.0% chance to make this better while she is under the spell of an affair. All you can do is last resort technique and ride it out. It will eventually end and at that point if you're still interested you can start to make inroads but for now it's a waiting game.

Originally Posted by scaredA
Im really not sure what to do, I havent eaten all day and feel totally sick.
Try to eat or go out and get some Ensure or protein drinks. Go for a walk or a run in nature. Go to the gym.

Originally Posted by scaredA
Thinking about it, im not sure if the above will do anything.
I promise you it won't have the desired effect that you want.

Originally Posted by scaredA
I feel terrible!
We have all been there. It won't last.

Last edited by LH19; 10/21/21 01:58 PM.

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scaredA,
Originally Posted by scaredA
So I have confirmed today that there is a physical affair. It has been going on from at least December 2020.
Sorry man. That's tough. Unfortunately it was very likely the case, especially in your sitch where she explicitly told you in the past. I know you wanted to think or hope it was only her making it up out of anger, but the most likely case is she was/is having an affair. Know that you know for certain and have proof, act accordingly.

Originally Posted by scaredA
Im really not sure what to do, I havent eaten all day and feel totally sick.

Thinking about it, im not sure if the above will do anything. Should I just follow MWD advice and dont talk about it, and just keep working on myself and see how things change in the future?

I feel terrible!
I know exactly how you feel right now. In fact, most of us on this forum know exactly how you feel. Thing is you'll get through it.

The most important thing to do right now, and it's tough (I know, trust me), is...GET STRONG. Don't let her dictate your happiness. Create an F-U attitude that you're going to be great without her. Work out, meet up with friends, get a new hobby. Start acting as if life is great despite what she's doing, because even if it doesn't feel like it right now...it will be. Act as if she's the one who's losing out.

Also, I don't know the laws in your country of residence or your country of citizenship but I would 1) document everything and it may help you in the divorce outcome, and 2) consult a lawyer with the latest info and fully understand your rights and what matters and doesn't.

Last edited by BL42; 10/21/21 02:00 PM.

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Originally Posted by LH19
We have all been there. It won't last.

Thanks I appreciate it.

Do you think I should set down some boundaries, ie if you want to carry this on you need to move out, or Im not going to carry on paying the bills on my own?


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If you choose to confront her, I would just make sure your expectations are set appropriately. If you're expecting remorse, an apology, or an admission of guilt you won't get it.

Here's what will happen:

1) She'll deny it, the more you push the more she'll dig in
2) She will demand to know where you're getting your information
3) If you tell her you snooped, she'll get angry at you for that, tell you that you betrayed her trust and make you the bad guy
4) She will make an effort to lock you out of whatever you have access to.
5) She will deepen her relationship with OM in response to things with you getting worse.

That's what will happen, but that's not necessarily a bad thing -- you will need to make this worse before it can get better.

If you choose to confront her, here's what I want you to do:

1) Tell her you know about her relationship with OM and that you consider it to be a betrayal
2) You will not accept being with someone who is in a relationship with someone else, therefore you want her to (move out of the MBR, move out of the house, whatever you want)

(Think about what you're going to do if she says "no")

3) Think about anything else you want to do -- if she's texting him on a phone you're paying for, tell her you're going to cancel her mobile plan/phone and she can go get her own if she wants to use it to text with OM

The key things you want to go for here are to come across as showing strength and standing up for yourself. Secondly, you don't want to come across as controlling. The message to her is that she can do whatever she wants, but if she wants to keep up this relationship with OM then she will not be sleeping in a room with you, or using your mobile plan, etc. etc.

Establish some boundaries about what you will accept and then *stick to them and enforce them at all costs* it's the best thing you can do.

Prepare yourself for the fact that this will temporarily make things worse between you. Think about it and mentally prepare for it, how will you act after the confrontation? How will you handle yourself? Start practicing for that in advance. Strength is the key here.


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Originally Posted by BL42
Sorry man. That's tough. Unfortunately it was very likely the case, especially in your sitch where she explicitly told you in the past. I know you wanted to think or hope it was only her making it up out of anger, but the most likely case is she was/is having an affair. Know that you know for certain and have proof, act accordingly.

Im not quite sure how to act though!

Originally Posted by BL42
]
I know exactly how you feel right now. In fact, most of us on this forum know exactly how you feel. Thing is you'll get through it.

The most important thing to do right now, and it's tough (I know, trust me), is...GET STRONG. Don't let her dictate your happiness. Create an F-U attitude that you're going to be great without her. Work out, meet up with friends, get a new hobby. Start acting as if life is great despite what she's doing, because even if it doesn't feel like it right now...it will be. Act as if she's the one who's losing out.

Also, I don't know the laws in your country of residence or your country of citizenship but I would 1) document everything and it may help you in the divorce outcome, and 2) consult a lawyer with the latest info and fully understand your rights and what matters and doesn't.

Im basically in a Sharia law state, the AP is a local muslim. The law here states that I could go to the police if I wanted, she would be jailed and he would be flogged. I would be happy to see that happen to him, I couldnt report my wife though.


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Should I tell her I know and set some boundaries?

You can have me and the kids or you can have him?
If you wish to carry on things are not the same around the house (I give her money every month and cover all the bills)
If you wish to carry on you need to move out?

Im really not sure what I should be doing!


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Scared read what I posted to you above like 5 times. You can not force her to move out. Slow down and research the difference between boundaries and ultimatums. This doesn't have to be done today.


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scaredA,
Originally Posted by scaredA
The law here states that I could go to the police if I wanted, she would be jailed and he would be flogged.
Well that's an outcome I'd wager more than one person on this forum fantasized about at some point during their sitch, but not sure it's a great real-life approach.

Originally Posted by scaredA
I would be happy to see that happen to him, I couldnt report my wife though.
I'm not saying you should report her - that would be a pretty extreme - but I am saying at some point down the road you may feel like you wish you had. Think of the 5 Stages of Grief (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance). Right now you're in denial or bargaining or depression, or some combination. You still don't want to lose your family or marriage, and so you want her AP punished but not her. At some point though you will get really angry at her. And I'm guessing at some point down the road as your sitch progresses feelings might bubble up that you wish you had her put in jail. Again, not saying you should...just prepare yourself for that emotion down the road.


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Originally Posted by scaredA
So I have confirmed today that there is a physical affair. It has been going on from at least December 2020.

I found she had a burner phone when she was out at work. I could see the whatapps chats from December until at least 20th July this year. The was also a note on her phone dated 6th October "You made me the impression I need to chase you, I never chase a man. Im interested at someone only if it goes two ways" To me this appears they had a falling out around this time, it would time in with the big arguments that we had around then and her staying in bed on day on her birthday, 3rd August. Also I found out who it is, I saw his picture and phone number. No-one I know, I think she has met him on a dating site. The scumbag is also married with 3 kids. I pity his wife and children.

I also found on that phone an alternative WhatsApp account, were she has been talking to and meeting other men, one as recently as Friday 15th, although these appear to not have gone any further at this point.

Scared A, very common tale unfortunately. I wish I had read (sorry if you didn't post it) that she had been showing signs of affair withdrawal. I went through that with my W. After her EAs would end she when go into a depression, a sadness. It is tough to watch your W mourning the loss of another man.

Originally Posted by scaredA
I am really having to stuggle not to say anything tonight, as I think this would let her know I am aware of the burner phone.

I don't know how some make a discovery like this and not confront. I couldn't do it. I always confronted right away. Maybe be the best course of action but if you cannot hide that you know then I believe it is better to confront.

DO NOT tell her what you know. Only that you know. "I know what has been going on." Also do not tell her how you know. If you do she will shut down everything else (the burner phone), and go much deeper undercover with her illicit activities.

Originally Posted by scaredA
Im really not sure how to proceed. It seems even with all my efforts, she has no desire to change or to finish her affair.

There is NOTHING you can say or do to change what she wants. This is a common mistake of LBSs. Thinking there is a magic bullet to end the problems. There isn't. It took years for you all to get here, it will likely take just as long to dig out, if you ever do! Please do not be deluded into thinking there is a quick fix. There isn't.

Originally Posted by scaredA
I was thinking of asking like this:

Me: I really dont want to have an argument, but are we trying to repair our marriage?
W: Yes/No
Me: If no, "I dont think we can go any further forward"
Me: If yes,"Are you still seeing anyone else, if you are we cannot really reapair anything"

I do not recommend this. What I recommend is you decide what you want. Do you want to remain married to a lying cheater? If not, then do this:

You: I know everything you've been doing.
W: What do you mean?
You: Don't pretend. I know.
W: What do you know?
You: Everything.
W: How do you know?
You: That isn't important. But I know and I have decided this is a dealbreaker for me. I will be filing for D.

If you do decide that being married to a lying cheater is what you want, then leave off that last line and just stop at That isn't important.

ScaredA, you've made a lot of mistakes in regards to commanding respect. Now is the chance for you to start showing a backbone. Asking her about repairing the marriage and if she is seeing anyone isn't the way to go. Just let her know you know everything, do not tell her how. And let her stew on that truth for awhile.

Originally Posted by scaredA
Im really not sure what to do, I havent eaten all day and feel totally sick.

Unfortunately, also very normal. I highly suggest getting into IC immediately.

Originally Posted by scaredA
Thinking about it, im not sure if the above will do anything. Should I just follow MWD advice and dont talk about it, and just keep working on myself and see how things change in the future?

Taking time is never a bad thing. But you still have to answer the question about whether your W being a lying cheater is a dealbreaker for you or not. If it is, then the way forward is clear. If not, then you have to decide how to proceed from here. GAL, 180s, detachment is your best course of action.


Originally Posted by scaredA
I feel terrible!

I feel terrible for you. Brings back a lot of pain and anguish I remember from my own situation. Unfortunately, you have to deal with this. We don't get to decide what others choose, but we do get to decide how we respond to it.


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Originally Posted by scaredA
I was thinking of asking like this:

Me: I really dont want to have an argument, but are we trying to repair our marriage?
W: Yes/No
Me: If no, "I dont think we can go any further forward"
Me: If yes,"Are you still seeing anyone else, if you are we cannot really reapair anything"

Should I tell her I know and set some boundaries?

You can have me and the kids or you can have him?
If you wish to carry on you need to move out?
Scared, while there's a divide here between confront and don't confront, the above are controlling (negative) behaviors. Like the 4-horsemen, that's not only unattractive but also weak and ineffective when applied to things you can't control--i.e., you probably can't force her to answer yes/no, to choose between "the kids" and "him", to move out, etc. She chooses who to like and love.

You of course have agency and can decide this is a dealbreaker and file for divorce. She's asked for that before and told you about her affair multiple times (not a strong threat). Boundaries don't require much if any communication. "Do this or else" would be ultimatum territory.

How to behave? When you're unsure, the general rule of thumb is like a Starbucks barista. You would respond to their hello with civility. You would not buy them an expensive handbag. Stonewalling, contempt, criticism, defensiveness--this is what she's used to and why she's seeking other people and has told she was doing so. Don't repeat those mistakes.

As for reporting them to the police, for me, physically harming another human being unnecessarily is against my code of ethics., so I would not report this to the police.



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Wise words:
Originally Posted by BL42
The most important thing to do right now, and it's tough (I know, trust me), is...GET STRONG. Don't let her dictate your happiness. Create an F-U attitude that you're going to be great without her. Work out, meet up with friends, get a new hobby. Start acting as if life is great despite what she's doing, because even if it doesn't feel like it right now...it will be. Act as if she's the one who's losing out.
Originally Posted by SteveLW
What I recommend is you decide what you want. Do you want to remain married to a lying cheater? If not, then do this:

You: I know everything you've been doing.
W: What do you mean?
You: Don't pretend. I know.
W: What do you know?
You: Everything.
W: How do you know?
You: That isn't important. But I know and I have decided this is a dealbreaker for me. I will be filing for D.

If you do decide that being married to a lying cheater is what you want, then leave off that last line and just stop at That isn't important.
Originally Posted by LH19
The key things you want to go for here are to come across as showing strength and standing up for yourself. Secondly, you don't want to come across as controlling. The message to her is that she can do whatever she wants, but if she wants to keep up this relationship with OM then she will not be sleeping in a room with you, or using your mobile plan, etc. etc.

Establish some boundaries about what you will accept and then *stick to them and enforce them at all costs* it's the best thing you can do.

Prepare yourself for the fact that this will temporarily make things worse between you. Think about it and mentally prepare for it, how will you act after the confrontation? How will you handle yourself? Start practicing for that in advance. Strength is the key here.


When in doubt on what to do, do nothing. Take some time to think and make a decision. Come here for ideas.

Another key thing is controlling your emotions when interacting with her. Do not emotionally react. Use your logic and RESPOND when you are ready. If you feel your emotions starting to take control of you while interacting with her, LEAVE and calm down. There are safe ways to release emotions, just do not do it with her.


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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Another key thing is controlling your emotions when interacting with her. Do not emotionally react. Use your logic and RESPOND when you are ready. If you feel your emotions starting to take control of you while interacting with her, LEAVE and calm down. There are safe ways to release emotions, just do not do it with her.

This is money. This is probably the single biggest thing that made an impact on my situation. Well said, R2C.


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Originally Posted by LH19
You will expect her to be apologetic and sad but she will not be, and that will only add to your anger and make things worse for you.

We are conditioned by books and movies to believe that a spouse caught cheating will be remorseful and beg for forgiveness and we imagine that it will feel great to have our wayward spouse in that place after all they've done to us. In reality they most often get belligerent and accusatory when confronted which just makes everything worse.

You will not find the peace you seek through confrontation unfortunately.

Scared, you are getting great advice, guess how we all know this is the way it will pan out.....

Originally Posted by LH19
She's going to "do her thing" no matter what you do, say, or feel about it. She doesn't need your permission or your blessing, which is a difficult thing to get your head around in the context of a relationship that used to be a partnership. It's not anymore, and the old rules don't apply.

Getting your head around and accepting that this is the case will likely be the hardest yet most effective thing you can do right now. Its hard to believe your W wants part of this and could do this to you. But believe it, it happens. Acceptance is difficult but will benefit you greatly.


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Originally Posted by scaredA
I would be happy to see that happen to him, I couldnt report my wife though.
Originally Posted by BL42
I'm not saying you should report her - that would be a pretty extreme - but I am saying at some point down the road you may feel like you wish you had. Think of the 5 Stages of Grief (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance). Right now you're in denial or bargaining or depression, or some combination. You still don't want to lose your family or marriage, and so you want her AP punished but not her. At some point though you will get really angry at her. And I'm guessing at some point down the road as your sitch progresses feelings might bubble up that you wish you had her put in jail. Again, not saying you should...just prepare yourself for that emotion down the road.

Thanks, I'm sure it will come up several times. It wouldn't benefit my or the kids expect for a feeling of revenge


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Originally Posted by scaredA
Originally Posted by scaredA
I would be happy to see that happen to him, I couldnt report my wife though.
Originally Posted by BL42
I'm not saying you should report her - that would be a pretty extreme - but I am saying at some point down the road you may feel like you wish you had. Think of the 5 Stages of Grief (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance). Right now you're in denial or bargaining or depression, or some combination. You still don't want to lose your family or marriage, and so you want her AP punished but not her. At some point though you will get really angry at her. And I'm guessing at some point down the road as your sitch progresses feelings might bubble up that you wish you had her put in jail. Again, not saying you should...just prepare yourself for that emotion down the road.

Thanks, I'm sure it will come up several times. It wouldn't benefit my or the kids expect for a feeling of revenge

You can't get in trouble for not reporting it, can you? I am not sure how Sharia works.


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So, I really missed up last night and this morning. For all my commitment to having no relationship talk or discussing the affair I went ahead and did.

I went into her bedroom last night and the conversation went something like this:

Me "Can we talk a minute:
W "Ok"
Me "Im not really sure what we are doing. Are we working on our marriage or not?"
W Thinks about then says "Yes"
Me "We cannot really do that if there is another person in the middle"

She then told me it was over and has been for a few months. However I know that she met another man (the first time they met) last weekend. I called her on that, but said that someone I knew had seen her, rather than how I actually know. She admitted it and said it was a friend. I then called her again saying she had been seen in (insert hotel name here) where she had met the AP.
She suddenly got defensive asking who told me and when it happened. I refused to give any further details. She then started to argue that she hadn't cheated or betrayed me and it was my fault as I had been stonewalling her through all this time. I stayed pretty calm, but did get defensive a few times, but no stonewalling.

I tried to lay down some boundaries:

1) I cannot stop you doing what you want, but you can have him or me and the kids, not both
2) You cannot stay in an affair and have the benefits of a marriage

Eventually this went no where and I left the room. She stayed in her room the rest of the night.

Im pretty sure she is still seeing him and they may have had a falling out around her birthday. I think this may be why she is meeting the new man, to line up the next AP.

I honestly feel dreadful. The next post is about the day after.


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So, the next day my wife came into the room I was sleeping and started going on about how she didn't cheat or betray me and that it was all my fault (pretty standard behaviour I believe to put the guilt from her onto me). I told her I was devastated and broken, and that my goal was to repair our family unit. I reiterated that this could not be done if the affair was still ongoing.

She then told me it meant nothing and was just sex and if it makes me feel better, she didn't love him. I know this is all crap from what I have seen. She was asking him to go on holidays with her, although she never said "I love you" in any of the messages and neither did he. She told me the sex was amazing and he made her feel very delicate. I didn't get angry or ask for more info, I just kept repeating that my goal is to repair our family unit, but this cannot happen if an affair is ongoing. Anyway, she left the room and sat in her bedroom.

We were supposed to be going to a sports event that night with the children. After lunch the kids were arguing and she snapped and said she wasn't going and that I should take them. I raised my voice a little, but wasn't rude/critical and said "You have arranged this, I will not be taking them". She went to her room and closed the door.

When it got closer to the event time, I apologies to my oldest son that we were not going, got in the car and drive to a coffee shop. When I was having my coffee, she phoned and asked is my oldest son with me. I replied "No". She then asked me to come home and take him to the sports event. I told her my son didn’t want to go any more and as she had earlier told us we were not going that I wouldn’t be coming home. Five minutes later she called again, said she had my son with her and he wanted to go. I agreed to come home and we all went to the event.
During the event she asked for a family photo (currently this just means her and the kids), so I stood to the side. However, she called me over and put her arm around my waist while the photo was being taken.
I’m not sure what to make or that, if anything. Third post to follow


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When we got home from the sports event it was arounds 11:30 pm. She immediately said she needed to go to get something from the grocery store. I thought this was a bit strange at this time at night, but didn’t say anything.

I put the kids to bed and went and sat downstairs. I know that all the shops close at midnight, so I wanted to see what time she got home. She was back home around 00:20 and did have some shopping, but not anything that I could see was urgently required at that time of night.

I asked her if she wanted a glass of wine and she said yes. We drank 2 bottles and sat up talking until about 3AM. There was no direct relationship talk, but she was discussing the kids school stuff and wishing that we could buy a rental flat back in our home city. During all this time her phone was on the table and she opened it a few times in front of me to use whatsapp. I could see the message and it was to her female friend. At one point she went to the toilet and left the phone on the table, but I didn’t touch it. Around 3 AM she was very drunk and just went to bed.

This morning she has just stayed in here room.

So, I think one of two things is happening:

1) She is still seeing her AP and is lying to me. I know the nationality of the AP (I have his picture) and I called her on it, she directly lied about it and said he wasn’t that nationality

2) She has had a falling out with the AP and is meeting this other man to set up the next AP.
During the conversation in her room, she said she had no guilt and regret about the affair. Her only regret was that she didn’t start one before.

Tomorrow we are supposed to be taking the kids to a two-day staycation where there is a waterpark.
I thinking that I should call her on still being in communication with the AP and say that I am not going to go on this staycation.

I’m really not sure how to proceed with this


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Originally Posted by SteveLW
You can't get in trouble for not reporting it, can you? I am not sure how Sharia works.

Im also not really sure how it works, but you are probably right I could get in trouble.


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Oh boy. I tried to warn you that you wouldn’t get the response you were seeking. I wouldn’t call her out on anything right now. If you decide not to go just tell her you need some space to thinks through.

Make an appointment to speak to a lawyer.

Time to start thinking about some boundaries.


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Originally Posted by LH19
Time to start thinking about some boundaries.

Any advice on how to do that?


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It’s tough to recommend boundaries when I don’t know what you are willing to tolerate.

Judging by what your W told you right now she’s done and has zero respect for you. This will likely change in time based on actions of strength.

What do you think you can do to show strength?


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Originally Posted by LH19
What do you think you can do to show strength?

Honestly, I really do not know, my head is in a right mess.

I wont tolerate her contacting other men, I know I cannot stop her doing this, but I want to show her I wont tolerate.

I really do not know what to do! What are some examples of some boundaries


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Ok so that’s a start. So if she is going to contact other men what are the consequences. Separation, divorce or what?


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What are you ages and how long together?


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Originally Posted by LH19
What are you ages and how long together?

Me:48 Wife:45
Met: 2002 Married: 2005
S: 13. S: 9


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Yep. Unfortunately so predictable.


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Originally Posted by LH19
Ok so that’s a start. So if she is going to contact other men what are the consequences. Separation, divorce or what?

She has a job, but I give her quite a large amount of money every month as my salary is much bigger than her. I could say that I will not fund her going out with other men and stop this payment.

If I do this things are going to get a lot worse in out relationship as at least we are communicating at present. Im not sure is having communication better or giving a show of strength that will make things worse (in terms of communication) between us?

Should I just go back staycation and try to show a good family time?


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Originally Posted by LH19
Yep. Unfortunately so predictable.

Sorry, I dont follow.


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So things are going to have to get a lot worse before they get better.

Sure that’s a start but don’t expect her to stop.

Your call on the staycation. If you go just concentrate on the kids. Just so you know there is absolutely nothing you can say or do to turn this around right now.


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Originally Posted by LH19
So things are going to have to get a lot worse before they get better.

Sure that’s a start but don’t expect her to stop.

Your call on the staycation. If you go just concentrate on the kids. Just so you know there is absolutely nothing you can say or do to turn this around right now.


So how should I bring this up, if I say she needs to stop contacting men or I will cut the money off, she will just say she is not contacting men


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Originally Posted by scaredA
Originally Posted by LH19
Yep. Unfortunately so predictable.

Sorry, I dont follow.
Originally Posted by scaredA
Originally Posted by LH19
Yep. Unfortunately so predictable.

Sorry, I dont follow.
Originally Posted by scaredA
Originally Posted by LH19
Yep. Unfortunately so predictable.

Sorry, I dont follow.
You ages and time together. Typically at this point as resentment builds one or both spouses decides this isn’t the life they want anymore.


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Originally Posted by scaredA
Originally Posted by LH19
So things are going to have to get a lot worse before they get better.

Sure that’s a start but don’t expect her to stop.

Your call on the staycation. If you go just concentrate on the kids. Just so you know there is absolutely nothing you can say or do to turn this around right now.


So how should I bring this up, if I say she needs to stop contacting men or I will cut the money off, she will just say she is not contacting men
Well there is ways to verify. Access to cellphone etc.


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Also I have said do some research on the difference between boundaries and ultimatums.


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Originally Posted by ScaredA
1) I cannot stop you doing what you want, but you can have him or me and the kids, not both
So far, you have not been setting boundaries (strong) you’ve been making ultimatums (weak). A boundary controls your behavior. An ultimatum is an attempt to control another’s behavior. We have a whole thread here on the superiority of boundaries and how to tell the difference. A good rule of thumb—if you have to announce it, if you expect a reaction, it’s more likely to be an ultimatum than a boundary.

You confronted her without a plan.it’s unfortunate but done.

For now, try not to be that stonewalling, defensive, raising your voice, controlling guy she’s known throughout the marriage. If you can’t handle a day out together that’s totally okay— “I need time to process everything and am not up for it today.” Lose points if you silently sulk away or tell her you won’t go as long as you believe she’s seeing OM. Give yourself a few days to calm down and make a consistent plan that aligns with your values with appropriate boundaries.



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Originally Posted by LH
Well there is ways to verify. Access to cellphone etc.
Right! If you both decide to R, it doesn’t need to be an “if I catch you one more time” game. Terms such as access to her phone to verify while you rebuild trust can be openly discussed.



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Originally Posted by CWarrior
So far, you have not been setting boundaries (strong) you’ve been making ultimatums (weak). A boundary controls your behavior. An ultimatum is an attempt to control another’s behavior. We have a whole thread here on the superiority of boundaries and how to tell the difference. A good rule of thumb—if you have to announce it, if you expect a reaction, it’s more likely to be an ultimatum than a boundary.

So let me see if I have gotten you right. I should just define how I am going to behave in certain situations as my boundaries? For example, I am not going to allow her to shout at me. When she shouts I will just say, I am not going to allow you to talk to me like that and leave the room. No not to announce to her that this is what I am going to do beforehand.

Do you happen to have a link to the boundaries thread, I cannot seem to find it.


Originally Posted by CWarrior
For now, try not to be that stonewalling, defensive, raising your voice, controlling guy she’s known throughout the marriage. If you can’t handle a day out together that’s totally okay— “I need time to process everything and am not up for it today.” Lose points if you silently sulk away or tell her you won’t go as long as you believe she’s seeing OM. Give yourself a few days to calm down and make a consistent plan that aligns with your values with appropriate boundaries.

So, just focus on myself and try and be the best person I can be in front of her? No relationship talk or talk about the affair?


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Originally Posted by CWarrior
Right! If you both decide to R, it doesn’t need to be an “if I catch you one more time” game. Terms such as access to her phone to verify while you rebuild trust can be openly discussed.

She doesnt have the phone out of her hand for five minutes, I think it will be way down the line before this can be discussed.


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Originally Posted by scaredA
Originally Posted by CWarrior
So far, you have not been setting boundaries (strong) you’ve been making ultimatums (weak). A boundary controls your behavior. An ultimatum is an attempt to control another’s behavior. We have a whole thread here on the superiority of boundaries and how to tell the difference. A good rule of thumb—if you have to announce it, if you expect a reaction, it’s more likely to be an ultimatum than a boundary.

So let me see if I have gotten you right. I should just define how I am going to behave in certain situations as my boundaries? For example, I am not going to allow her to shout at me. When she shouts I will just say, I am not going to allow you to talk to me like that and leave the room. No not to announce to her that this is what I am going to do beforehand.

Do you happen to have a link to the boundaries thread, I cannot seem to find it.


Originally Posted by CWarrior
For now, try not to be that stonewalling, defensive, raising your voice, controlling guy she’s known throughout the marriage. If you can’t handle a day out together that’s totally okay— “I need time to process everything and am not up for it today.” Lose points if you silently sulk away or tell her you won’t go as long as you believe she’s seeing OM. Give yourself a few days to calm down and make a consistent plan that aligns with your values with appropriate boundaries.

So, just focus on myself and try and be the best person I can be in front of her? No relationship talk or talk about the affair?
Focus on yourself and the kids and be the best person you can be all the time. No relationship talks. Make sure you’re getting out of the house when she’s gone with the kids. Read Sandis rules which is in your homework thread. I can’t stress enough that nothing you do right now is going to change anything. It’s a marathon not a sprint. Either way you will survive this and move forward.


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SA, so do you still even want her back?


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No, don’t be the best person you can be “ in front of her “

Be the man you wan to be for you .

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scaredA,

I'm going to be blunt. Your W is having affairs, does not respect you at all, and is LYING directly to your face. It may be hard to believe she's lying, or rather easy to believe what she's saying, because you know her as your W of 16 years and mother of your children so you're inclined to believe her and want to think there's hope to keep your family together, but right now she doesn't care about your or being a family at all. She may even HATE you, and relish in betraying you.

Don't mean to be harsh, but your sitch is bad. You hadn't talked to her for nearly a year, she's had multiple affairs and is lying and disrespecting you and talking about moving out of the country. It's unlikely she's going to have a quick turnaround. It's much more likely heading towards a D. Get a L, know your rights, start protecting your assets and custody with the kids. Work on yourself and GAL and be a great dad.

Originally Posted by scaredA
She then told me it was over and has been for a few months. However I know that she met another man (the first time they met) last weekend. I called her on that, but said that someone I knew had seen her, rather than how I actually know. She admitted it and said it was a friend. I then called her again saying she had been seen in (insert hotel name here) where she had met the AP.
Originally Posted by scaredA
So, the next day my wife came into the room I was sleeping and started going on about how she didn't cheat or betray me and that it was all my fault
Originally Posted by scaredA
She then told me it meant nothing and was just sex and if it makes me feel better, she didn't love him.
Look what's she's saying. She's denying what you know to be true, and then admitting only to what you know/can prove. Several times. She's lying to your face. My ExW did as well. I had tangible evidence and she'd lie right to my face. It's likely what she'd done to date is worse than she's admitted or you know. Sorry, but it's the truth.

Originally Posted by scaredA
I raised my voice a little, but wasn't rude/critical and said "You have arranged this, I will not be taking them".

Five minutes later she called again, said she had my son with her and he wanted to go. I agreed to come home and we all went to the event.
You look weak. First you say "no" and leave, and then you agree to go and even take a family photo. She knows she can manipulate you. Get stronger.

Originally Posted by scaredA
When we got home from the sports event it was arounds 11:30 pm. She immediately said she needed to go to get something from the grocery store. I thought this was a bit strange at this time at night, but didn’t say anything.

I put the kids to bed and went and sat downstairs. I know that all the shops close at midnight, so I wanted to see what time she got home. She was back home around 00:20 and did have some shopping, but not anything that I could see was urgently required at that time of night.
My ExW would go grocery shopping for an hour when OM1 could talk and I'd line up the phone bill times with her being out. What could your W possibly need at that time? It's likely she was talking to another man.

Originally Posted by scaredA
There was no direct relationship talk, but she was discussing the kids school stuff and wishing that we could buy a rental flat back in our home city.
DO NOT, under any circumstances, buy or rent a place in a different country without fully understanding the legal implications. Talk to a L. With two kids and living in a country neither of you are citizens of, I imagine the laws are complicated. Don't allow her to take the kids back to Russia or wherever and put you in a bind. Make sure you know the law and fully understand the potential consequences before you make any living accommodation moves.

Originally Posted by scaredA
During all this time her phone was on the table and she opened it a few times in front of me to use whatsapp. I could see the message and it was to her female friend. At one point she went to the toilet and left the phone on the table, but I didn’t touch it. Around 3 AM she was very drunk and just went to bed.
It's likely she was talking to another man. My ExW would text him while in the room with me, while laying in bed with our son...etc. She was either oblivious to how obvious it was, or didn't care.

Originally Posted by scaredA
She has a job, but I give her quite a large amount of money every month as my salary is much bigger than her. I could say that I will not fund her going out with other men and stop this payment.

If I do this things are going to get a lot worse in out relationship as at least we are communicating at present.
Talk to a L in your country of residence and your country of citizenship and fully understand your rights. Do not subsidize her lifestyle while she's cheating on you in the hopes if you keep doing it it'll cause her to want to reconcile.


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Originally Posted by scaredA
When she shouts I will just say, I am not going to allow you to talk to me like that and leave the room. No not to announce to her that this is what I am going to do beforehand.
Yes. good boundary.


Quote
Do you happen to have a link to the boundaries thread, I cannot seem to find it.
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096


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Originally Posted by BL42
DO NOT, under any circumstances, buy or rent a place in a different country without fully understanding the legal implications. Talk to a L. With two kids and living in a country neither of you are citizens of, I imagine the laws are complicated. Don't allow her to take the kids back to Russia or wherever and put you in a bind. Make sure you know the law and fully understand the potential consequences before you make any living accommodation moves.
I agree.

Your job right now is to put boundaries around you and your relationship with your children.


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Originally Posted by SteveLW
SA, so do you still even want her back?


Yes, I think I do. But some days I am so angry with what has happened. I fully understand that my stonewalling has contributed to this, but she had three options 1) Try and work on the marriage, 2) Leave the marriage 3) Open her legs. She went for the third and that hurts!


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Ok some updates. This will be a few posts.

On Saturday I was really annoyed, so I went out for a few hours. When I came back I went and lay on the bed. The wife come in later and asked was I ok. I said "Not really", She asked "Why" and I just said "The current situation. She came into the room and closed the door and she started a relationship talk.

Without all the ins and out, she basically repeated what she had said before. I was stonewalling her, she felt lonely, she sought out a married man, she would have went for a single man if she really wanted to cheat, the sex was amazing, no regrets, she wouldn't really call it an affair as she didn't love him, wished she had started having fun sooner.

However she also said the following, I really appreciate your efforts for the last few months, I have been observing them, I can see you are trying really hard, two months ago I had my divorce plan all finalised, now I am really confused, she said she knows I'm paying a lot of money for IC and she appreciated that I am doing it.

She also said she wanted to work on the marriage, but that I should put the affair out of my mind as every time I talk about it she goes back to the place of a few months ago where she was sure she was leaving.

I repeated that I wanted to work on the marriage, but that a third party cannot be involved for this process to work

She seems to be all over the place. I'm not sure if she is manipulating or genuinely is confused on what to do.

She agreed that the conversation was calm and respectful where it would have previously quickly turned into an argument.

She left the room after about 1 hour and half and we left the next morning for a staycation.

Next post about the staycation.


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Translation: "She can't pursue a relationship with this married man, because we'll he's married and they are under sharia law. So she is making sure plan B is still there (you) until w new plan A comes along."

We've seen this all before.

Last edited by SteveLW; 10/26/21 08:00 PM.

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The staycation.

So we arrived at the hotel, which had a waterpark. The kids went on the rides and we sat together on some sun loungers. She talked all afternoon about her job and some people she had issues with. I just listened, validated and empathised.

That night the whole family went out for dinner. We had two bottles of wine and one point she held my arm as she explained some point. When we went back to the hotel room, the kids went to bed and we sat on the balcony and and shared another bottle of wine. The conversation was the same as before, kids, job, etc. I could see she was quite drunk.

She went to the bathroom and when she came back she pulled her chair right in front on mine. She leaned into "kissing range" from my face and said "What are you looking at?", I said "A beautiful woman", She said "Good", then I apologised for treating her badly by stonewalling. At this point the conversation went bad. She pulled away again and she started talking about how much she wanted a divorce and I couldn't change, etc, etc. Unfortunately, I let myself become involved and a load of discussion about the affair began.

This went on for a while, and I probably revealed more than I should have done about what I know about the affair. At one point I walked off, then I came back and apologised for walking off.

She said a few things that were weird. She said sometimes she wants to cuddle me as she can she I'm in a lot of pain. She also said that I should listen to the sober conversation (I am assuming she meant the one in the previous post) not the drunk conversation. She also said she is observing that I am trying hard.

She said I should not be spying or keeping track on her as this will only make things worse.

We went to bed around 3am with both of us not in a very good mood


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Originally Posted by scaredA
she felt lonely....now I am really confused....


Do you understand that how a woman "FEELS" in your presence is important. Change your behavior and the way you interact changes the way she feels.

Confusion is good. Keep her confused. Your job now is to listen and validate her.


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Relationship talks are bad. Relationship talks when drunk are just plain stupid. I can see you are going to have to learn the hard way my friend.

Last edited by LH19; 10/26/21 08:10 PM.

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Originally Posted by scaredA
The wife come in later and asked was I ok. I said "Not really", She asked "Why" and I just said "The current situation. She came into the room and closed the door and she started a relationship talk.
NO, you started the R talk.


W:"Are you OK"
H:"yes"

or


W:"Are you OK"
H:"yes,why?"


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The next morning.

I am not sure how much of the previous nights conversation she remembered as she was really drunk.

So we slept in different beds in the same room and the next morning she woke me up by pushing my shoulder and asking if I was coming to breakfast. When I said "Yes" she pulled back my cover and lay in the bed beside me. She gave me a cuddle for about 5 minutes without saying a word. Then she said we had better go for breakfast and got up again. Im really confused by this.

Anyway after breakfast she lay down in her bed and I asked in I could lie down to. She pulled back the cover and lay with her head on my chest for about 10 minutes. We didnt say anything to each other.

We went out and spent the day again sitting on sun loungers talking. I again mostly listened and validated and empathised.

Later in the evening we went for a walk around the hotel, just the two of us.

The next morning, I again asked if I could lie down. She moved over and let me cuddle her and link my fingers in hers. I am going to stop asking for this, I don't think it is helping anything and probably making her more resentful that she cuddled me in first place.

I need to go back to no relationship talk and no talk about the affair.

I'm also not going to look at her phone again, it is only making me feel worse.

As you have all said there is nothing I can say or do to stop her seeing another man. I think all I can do at the moment, is work on myself and show her what she would be missing, be LRTing all the time.


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Originally Posted by LH19
Relationship talks are bad. Relationship talks when drunk are just plain stupid. I can see you are going to have to learn the hard way my friend.


I know it was real stupid.


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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Do you understand that how a woman "FEELS" in your presence is important. Change your behavior and the way you interact changes the way she feels.

Confusion is good. Keep her confused. Your job now is to listen and validate her.

I thought confusion was good. I trying with the valadation and empathising. We basically spent three days on our own whilst the kids where using the waterpark. I just let her talk and tried to validate and empathise. I can see when im doing it well when the conversation goes something like this:

W: Tells me a story about something/someone
Me: That's ridiculous, you most have been really annoyed/angry/upset/furious about that
W: Exactly


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Originally Posted by scaredA
then I apologized for treating her badly by stonewalling.
Obviously, wrong decision. You had many more choices on how to behave. 98% of the time, talking will make things worse. Listening and taking action are your job.


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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
NO, you started the R talk.


W:"Are you OK"
H:"yes"

or


W:"Are you OK"
H:"yes,why?"

I'm not sure is the first or second response better? The second I assume?


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Originally Posted by scaredA
I can see when im doing it well when the conversation goes something like this:

W: Tells me a story about something/someone
Me: That's ridiculous, you most have been really annoyed/angry/upset/furious about that
W: Exactly
Perfect.

Now the harder part, what if that someone is YOU?


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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Listening and taking action are your job.

I need this tattoed to my hand.

Can you explain a bit more what you mean by "taking action"?


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Originally Posted by scaredA
I'm not sure is the first or second response better? The second I assume?
It depends on if you want to have a longer interaction.....I think either are fine. Can you come up with others that are acceptable?


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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Now the harder part, what if that someone is YOU?

So if it is me I should just say this same thing?

I understand how my [put behaviour/action here] would make you feel [put her emotion here]


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scaredA, there is saying around here: When she wants to reconcile you will know. When she doesn't you will be confused. How would you describe your state of mind right now?


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Originally Posted by scaredA
Can you explain a bit more what you mean by "taking action"?

I would have kissed her.

or

I would have got up and moved away.


(All depending on how I read her body language and facial expressions and tones etc) or (how I wanted the interaction to go)


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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
It depends on if you want to have a longer interaction.....I think either are fine. Can you come up with others that are acceptable?


I imagine at the moment I should never tell her I feel bad around issues in the relationship, just tell her I'm good and put a smile on, even if I feel like crap?

W: Are you ok
Me: Yes, great


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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
I would have kissed her.

or

I would have got up and moved away.


(All depending on how I read her body language and facial expressions and tones etc) or (how I wanted the interaction to go)

I see you point, she had her kissing face on and I think I blew it. Yes, less talk more action. What an idiot, I can be!


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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Now the harder part, what if that someone is YOU?
Originally Posted by scaredA
So if it is me I should just say this same thing?

I understand how my [put behaviour/action here] would make you feel [put her emotion here]
There may be better ways, but I believe that is a good start. LH19 might be able to elaborate.


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Originally Posted by SteveLW
scaredA, there is saying around here: When she wants to reconcile you will know. When she doesn't you will be confused. How would you describe your state of mind right now?


Yes, I'm confused


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[align:left][/align]RTC- you would have kissed your wife when she admitted to being physical with another man and has no remorse because it technically wasn’t cheating because she wasn’t in love with him ?

DM. Men are bonkers

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Originally Posted by scaredA
What an idiot, I can be!
It is all about learning. Every interact can be a learning experience.

Even her kissing face may have been to manipulate you. Just having a new sense of awareness is a good skill.


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Originally Posted by Ginger1
[align:left][/align]RTC- you would have kissed your wife when she admitted to being physical with another man and has no remorse because it technically wasn’t cheating because she wasn’t in love with him ?

DM. Men are bonkers

I get your point, but she was saying she has no remorse not because she didn't love him, but because she feels she is already separated as we haven't spoken to each other for nearly a year


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Originally Posted by scaredA
She went to the bathroom and when she came back she pulled her chair right in front on mine. She leaned into "kissing range" from my face and said "What are you looking at?", I said "A beautiful woman", She said "Good", then I apologised for treating her badly by stonewalling. At this point the conversation went bad. She pulled away again and she started talking about how much she wanted a divorce and I couldn't change, etc, etc. Unfortunately, I let myself become involved and a load of discussion about the affair began.
So...as soon as she reeled you in and confirmed she had you on the hook she let you go. She knows she has power over you and can manipulate you with even the faintest sign of a potential kiss. Notice as soon as you showed weakness she pulled away.

Originally Posted by scaredA
This went on for a while, and I probably revealed more than I should have done about what I know about the affair.
She got information out of you, which you had been planning to keep secret. Remember tell her generally you know, but not exactly what you know or how you know it.

Originally Posted by scaredA
At one point I walked off, then I came back and apologised for walking off.
That's pretty weak. She's having an affair and you're the one apologizing...for walking off?

Originally Posted by scaredA
She said I should not be spying or keeping track on her as this will only make things worse.
Translation: she wants you to stop spying so she doesn't get caught. If she wanted to reconcile she'd want you to check up on her to prove to you she's true to you.

Originally Posted by scaredA
Originally Posted by Ginger1
[align:left][/align]RTC- you would have kissed your wife when she admitted to being physical with another man and has no remorse because it technically wasn’t cheating because she wasn’t in love with him ?

DM. Men are bonkers

I get your point, but she was saying she has no remorse not because she didn't love him, but because she feels she is already separated as we haven't spoken to each other for nearly a year
She is MARRIED to you. She doesn't get to sleep with other people just because "she feels she's already separated". That's cheating, period. You need to work on your stonewalling, for sure. An entire year is an extremely long time in a relationship not to talk to your spouse, and it likely won't be healed soon if at all, but cheating is cheating. You're making excuses for her because you want her back. Don't.

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S,

The staycation was a bad idea period. You end up in a relationship talk that includes her talking to you about having sex with another man and then you want to cuddle. It’s very weak behavior.

Right now she knows you’re desperate to save the marriage and is going to use your uncontrollable behavior against you. I understand you you were acting like a prick the last year but there is nothing you can do about that now.

It’s time for some boundaries and there should be some serious consequences if broken.


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Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by scaredA
Can you explain a bit more what you mean by "taking action"?

I would have kissed her.

or

I would have got up and moved away.


(All depending on how I read her body language and facial expressions and tones etc) or (how I wanted the interaction to go)
I was thinking exactly that--I was baffled that you took an interaction where you were connecting romantically, and started apologizing for your shortcoming. In my experience, confusing behaviors like yours come from a confused mind. I've been there. Do you want to reconnect romantically? Maybe you have not figured that out. Figure that out. Then, the next time, you can either move in for the kill or walk away depending on what you actually want from your marriage now.

I don't think your situation is hopeless. You stonewalled for a year, she told you she wanted a divorce, and she told you she was having an affair--hardly the worst of WAWs. A mutual desire to R and leave behind As seems required to R if monogamy is important to you. Note, there are couples here who R'd after an A here, and the apology came much later (see May's thread). I'm curious, in all these R talks, has she said she's done or willing to be done sleeping with other men? Have you asked? Has she come up with or otherwise expressed anything she's willing to do to work on the marriage? How will your own working on the marriage look different before and after third parties are out of the picture?

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
At one point I walked off, then I came back and apologised for walking off.
Walking off to cool down is actually advised by Gottman, whom I know you're studying. Apologizing when you're wrong is great--take care not to over-apologize for other reasons.



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Originally Posted by Ginger1
RTC- you would have kissed your wife when she admitted to being physical with another man and has no remorse because it technically wasn’t cheating because she wasn’t in love with him ?
I would have picked the other option. I most likely would have made different choices and not been in that sitch in the first place.


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Originally Posted by BL42
So...as soon as she reeled you in and confirmed she had you on the hook she let you go. She knows she has power over you and can manipulate you with even the faintest sign of a potential kiss. Notice as soon as you showed weakness she pulled away.

You are right, I should have stood up and moved away and not allowed any R talk to proceed.

Originally Posted by BL42
She got information out of you, which you had been planning to keep secret. Remember tell her generally you know, but not exactly what you know or how you know it.

I need to remember this. But to be honest Im not even going to check that burner phone again, it only makes me feel bad when I see their conversation.


Originally Posted by BL42
That's pretty weak. She's having an affair and you're the one apologizing...for walking off?

This is more about me trying to avoid sulking off and stonewalling her.

Originally Posted by BL42
She said I should not be spying or keeping track on her as this will only make things worse.
Translation: she wants you to stop spying so she doesn't get caught. If she wanted to reconcile she'd want you to check up on her to prove to you she's true to you.

I agree I don't think she wants to reconcile at the moment. However, I think I am seeing definite signs of softening. She has agreed that she wants "Me" to work on the marriage and she has said that having the recent family time makes her very happy. Also me oldest son has been acting up a lot recently. Since my wife and I have started talking again his behaviour has been dramatically improving. I mention that this was the case by saying "His behaviour is better when you and I behave better" She said "Maybe", then about 30 seconds later said "Not maybe, definitely". I think if I continue to LRT small steps will build on top of the already small steps that have occurred.



Originally Posted by BL42
She is MARRIED to you. She doesn't get to sleep with other people just because "she feels she's already separated". That's cheating, period. You need to work on your stonewalling, for sure. An entire year is an extremely long time in a relationship not to talk to your spouse, and it likely won't be healed soon if at all, but cheating is cheating. You're making excuses for her because you want her back. Don't.

I'm not giving her excuses, what she has done is very painful. However, I can see how I contributed to her feeling lonely and neglected over a very long period of time.
Right now there is nothing I can do if she wants to see other men, I am hoping the relationship can be repaired over time.


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Originally Posted by LH19
S,

The staycation was a bad idea period. You end up in a relationship talk that includes her talking to you about having sex with another man and then you want to cuddle. It’s very weak behavior.

Right now she knows you’re desperate to save the marriage and is going to use your uncontrollable behavior against you. I understand you you were acting like a prick the last year but there is nothing you can do about that now.

It’s time for some boundaries and there should be some serious consequences if broken.


I thought the staycation was ok, bar the drunk relationship talk. It give us quite a bit of time together during the day, when I just listened and validated her conversation. I few times she asked questions about my job, which I thought was a big step change according to MWD.

She could she my behaviour around the kids and how I spent time with them. She said the family time made her feel really happy. She also told me that everyone enjoyed themselves, when we arrived home.

She is still in bed this morning, I am going to back off a little today and not start any conversation with her and go out on my own.


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Originally Posted by CWarrior
I was thinking exactly that--I was baffled that you took an interaction where you were connecting romantically, and started apologizing for your shortcoming. In my experience, confusing behaviors like yours come from a confused mind. I've been there. Do you want to reconnect romantically? Maybe you have not figured that out. Figure that out. Then, the next time, you can either move in for the kill or walk away depending on what you actually want from your marriage now.

I think you are right. I was confused that she put herself in that situation and I didn't know how to react, so I just let my mouth blab. Going forward, I am going to try and practice what R4C said above. My job is just to listen and to take action.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
I don't think your situation is hopeless.

Im pleased that you do not think the situation is hopeless. Without making excuses for her, I can understand how she felt lonely and neglected throughout the period I was stonewalling her.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
she told you she wanted a divorce, and she told you she was having an affair--hardly the worst of WAWs.

Can you explain a bit more what you mean by that?

Originally Posted by CWarrior
I'm curious, in all these R talks, has she said she's done or willing to be done sleeping with other men? Have you asked? Has she come up with or otherwise expressed anything she's willing to do to work on the marriage? How will your own working on the marriage look different before and after third parties are out of the picture?

She has said she isn't seeing him anymore. If this is true, I believe this is more to do with him keeping her hanging, as he is probably seeing several other people, rather than anything to do with her stopping seeing him.
I have told her that we cannot work on the relationship if a third party is involved. She has agreed without saying directly that she will stop seeing men. She has said that she is observing the changes I am making and she can see how hard I am trying. She has said that I should continue in this manner. She has said that family time makes her very happy.

I think at this point she doesn't want to reconcile or show that she is wanting me to reconcile because she has seen it all before and believes that any changes will not last.

Having said that, I can notice a definite softening. She is talking to me, she doesnt flinch if I brush against her arm while we are talking. She lets me hold her arm when she is stepping off a bus or down a large step. She has become more involved with the kids than she has been for ages and she is doing some laundry and housework, which she did not do for a long time. I beleive all these things are a reaction to our relationship dynamic caused by the changes I am implementing by doing LRT.


Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Walking off to cool down is actually advised by Gottman, whom I know you're studying. Apologizing when you're wrong is great--take care not to over-apologize for other reasons.

Yes the apology was for me raising my voice and walking off. BL42 thinks I was weak for doing this, but may DB coach says I should apologise immediately if I revert to my old behaviours.


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Originally Posted by CWarrior
Note, there are couples here who R'd after an A here, and the apology came much later (see May's thread).

I cannot seem to find this thread, do you have a link?


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What she is doing right now is what we call cake eating. She has family time and then runs off and sleeps with other men. WWs love to stuff their faces with cake.

Now that your home she will retreat because she doesn’t want you to get her hope up. It’s time to GAL like a mad man.


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Originally Posted by LH19
What she is doing right now is what we call cake eating. She has family time and then runs off and sleeps with other men. WWs love to stuff their faces with cake.

Now that your home she will retreat because she doesn’t want you to get her hope up. It’s time to GAL like a mad man.

You are probably right. My DB coach thinks I should accept all the family time I can get as this may help her see what she is missing and what is more important in life. Do you not think this is a correct approach? I dont think I can do anything about other men at the moment, but I think having family time is a LRT good idea.

She has retreated today, she has not come out of her bedroom. Instead of hanging around waiting I have tried to GAL by going out for lunch, I am also going to go to the cinema tonight.


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So scared I have the value of hindsight. If I could do it over again I would have divorced my ex the minute I found her texting my neighbor. Just something I would never tolerate again. You absolutely can’t make this better with another party involved. So you can go along playing happy family but it will be excruciatingly painful when you don’t get the outcome you desire.

Look I know you feel horrible about how you acted. We all have been there. You have to give yourself a break and understand you did the best you could with the tools you had at the time. The greatest teacher is learning from your mistakes.

Your DB coach isn’t wrong. I just don’t think they take into account that a LBS has a difficult time controlling their emotions and having lofty expectations. If you have trouble with either it usually makes your situation worse and heights the pain. I am more in favor of time and space because that’s the only thing IMO that works long-term.


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Originally Posted by scaredA
she has said that having the recent family time makes her very happy.

Of course it does! She gets to go off, meet men, have sex, and then come home to play house. She gets to have her cake, and eat it too.

Look scaredA, I know you're trying. But your problem is right in your screen name. "Scared". Fear is your enemy. It will make you do things out of weakness. Like buying here an expensive handbag to get her to stay. You have to start focusing on you and your kids. Quit focusing on her. I know that is difficult, but it's the only way you'll ever move forward. Most WWs will cake eat forever if you let them. At some point you have to realize that being D'd is better than being walked all over.


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Originally Posted by SteveLW
Of course it does! She gets to go off, meet men, have sex, and then come home to play house. She gets to have her cake, and eat it too.

Look scaredA, I know you're trying. But your problem is right in your screen name. "Scared". Fear is your enemy. It will make you do things out of weakness. Like buying here an expensive handbag to get her to stay. You have to start focusing on you and your kids. Quit focusing on her. I know that is difficult, but it's the only way you'll ever move forward. Most WWs will cake eat forever if you let them. At some point you have to realize that being D'd is better than being walked all over.

I don't really get what you and LH19 are saying. Are you saying I shouldnt try to change things up as she is a lying cheater and I should just go straight to divorce?

I understand she is currently having her cake and eating it, but at the moment I have no leverage to lay down the law. My understanding with LRT is that if I make small changes to my behaviour, as I am trying to do, she will automatically make small changes in the way she responds to me. I can see this happening already, two months ago she left the room when I walked in, now she is sitting across the lounge from me as I type this. There was full on talk of divorce and leaving two months ago, now she says she is confused.

Will these small changes not build on each other until at some point in the future we can see that things are not going to improve any further or it will reach a point when we can discuss her behaviour.

I really love my wife and my kids and want to do everything I can to prevent a divorce. The divorce can either happen now, or 1 year, 2 year in the future. It will still be a divorce. But at that point at least I can hold my hands up and say I tried.

Am I really being walked all over for trying to repair the damage?


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Originally Posted by scaredA
I don't really get what you and LH19 are saying. Are you saying I shouldnt try to change things up as she is a lying cheater and I should just go straight to divorce?
I am not saying that at all. I am saying to give her space, think about your values and focus on you and the children.

Originally Posted by scaredA
I understand she is currently having her cake and eating it, but at the moment I have no leverage to lay down the law.
What do you mean lay down the law?

Originally Posted by scaredA
My understanding with LRT is that if I make small changes to my behaviour, as I am trying to do, she will automatically make small changes in the way she responds to me.
Maybe and maybe not.

Originally Posted by scaredA
I can see this happening already, two months ago she left the room when I walked in, now she is sitting across the lounge from me as I type this. There was full on talk of divorce and leaving two months ago, now she says she is confused.
This is most likely because the cat is out of the bag. She doesn't have to hide it from you.

Originally Posted by scaredA
Will these small changes not build on each other until at some point in the future we can see that things are not going to improve any further or it will reach a point when we can discuss her behaviour.
So you think it is as easy as "i have been a good boy, you can stop your affair now'?

Originally Posted by scaredA
I really love my wife and my kids and want to do everything I can to prevent a divorce.
So give her time and space and focus on you.

Originally Posted by scaredA
The divorce can either happen now, or 1 year, 2 year in the future. It will still be a divorce. But at that point at least I can hold my hands up and say I tried.
This is true. What I said to you was my opinion after hindsight. I once held on tightly to "I tried everything".
Originally Posted by scaredA
Am I really being walked all over for trying to repair the damage?
You are in a tough spot. She knows she has the upper hand and is quietly enjoying every minute of it. You have to have some kind of boundaries or you will get walked all over. Start small. You won't tolerate her talking to you about how sex with another man was great.


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