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Originally Posted by wayfarer
LH - I strongly suggest you slow down and re-read what I wrote.
I just did and got the same thing out of it lol.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
However, I think based on how you interpreted what I wrote you were feeling some kind of way and took that out on me. None of this was addressed to you or at you. But it's not the first time a man took what I said personally when it had absolutely nothing to do with him. And I'm sure it won't be the last.
Probably not.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
As far as how I feel about demonizing WAS/WS we've had this conversation before. Making monsters of all WAS/WS is an easy way out for LBS to wash away all their sins, their faults, and have zero culpability in the demise of their marriage.
Most know their part in it. Scotty B will get there. IMO the punishment rarely fits the crime.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Which leads them to being ACTUALLY bitter and jaded. It also does zero for them in helping them move up and move on. Letting that way of thinking go on lets an LBS stew in the anger instead of moving through the stages of grief which requires absolutely no higher thought nor does it allow room for forgiveness or any other method of getting over or through what happened.
This is really good stuff Wayfarer.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
What I said doesn't negate in any way what you say in these matters at all.
Good point.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
And in this case specifically, I think we all know she's not coming back nor would any of us understand why SB would want that.
Scotty B continues to be and is in love with a fantasy and I can't see it changing anytime soon.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
My points on the matter were directed to SB, not you. It's why I literally addressed that portion to him. You're so far past the point SB is in this what I said would have literally no relevance or baring on your life unless you wanted it to. If you interpreted it as such, I don't know what to tell you LH. That wasn't my intent, and I wrote it pretty clearly that that wasn't my intent in the first place.
No relevance you just know I don't go quietly. Probably one of my ex wife's resentments lol.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
If you do want me to actually insult you though I'd say keep talking about yourself in the 3rd person and I'm sure I can come up with something ;
LH19 spit his coffee. Not as funny as "build a bit'ch" though.


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“Don't chase people. Be yourself, do your own thing and work hard. The right people - the ones who really belong in your life - will come to you and stay.”- Will Smith
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LBS are often not some poor victim. They play a huge role in this mess. The one who pulls the trigger on the absolute end is always portrayed as the evil villain.

I learned from umpteen years on these boards that there are always 2 sides to a story.

I was probably more of a victim than most, but in the sense I knowingly married a cheater and a bad man, that this was going to be the outcome. I was with my ex out of a place of trauma and didn’t in my 20’s know what to do with that. I didn’t know how to deal with him. And our marriage was doomed from the day it began. And that is on me. I am an victim of myself as well

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Originally Posted by Ginger1
LBS are often not some poor victim. They play a huge role in this mess. The one who pulls the trigger on the absolute end is always portrayed as the evil villain.

I learned from umpteen years on these boards that there are always 2 sides to a story.

100%... and if the LBS does not do the work and figure out their part in the mess, the story will repeat itself. This takes time and a massive amount of self-awareness. It's hard. Always either to blame the other party for everything but there are always things we can do to improve relationship wise. I see this deep introspective missing in a lot of cases, especially in the surviving the D subforum.

And Ginger... I am also a victim of myself in many ways.

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I find this discussion fascinating.

While I agree that:
a marriage takes two
oftentimes the WAS/WS is vilified by the LBS (and this community)
we ALL should be on a perpetual path of growth and self-discovery

I also believe that there are circumstances where asking the LBS to take even up to 50% of the blame may cause further harm. Let's take cheating for example. Yes, the cheater may have been unhappy in the marriage. And the LBS may have been a poor partner. But that does not absolve the cheater of their actions. They chose to go outside of the marriage instead of working on the marriage OR leaving the marriage and then getting involved with someone. Asking the LBS to take responsibility for their part in the demise (in this case, the cheating) perpetuates this idea that they (we) somehow have control over another person's actions. As if there is something the LBS could have done to prevent their partner from straying.

Another instance where asking the LBS to take on responsibility can cause more harm is in the case of abuse. It has taken me nearly 18 months to get out of the fog and see how dysfunctional, and honestly abusive, my relationship was. I spent the greater part of those 18 months examining my actions, trying to become a better person, and doing a post-mortem on my role in the demise of my marriage. And while I found some areas for growth for sure, the majority of that time just made me feel worse and worse about myself. Because I must be such a truly, awful, terrible person if not keeping a tidy enough house or having a normal reaction to stress or not being able to turn on my sex kitten side a few months after having 4 babies in 5 years were all worthy reasons to be discarded.

If the LBS is able to stay the course of perpetual improvement for themselves and not for someone else, then encouraging that growth is great. But sometimes the LBS is already so beaten down (raising my hand) that spending all that time self-reflecting actually can slow the healing process down.

Two sides to every perspective I suppose.

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Of course there are exceptions, especially where there is abuse, addiction, and overt awful cheating like my ex who was cheating while I was pregnant and left me for her when our baby was an infant No excuses for that one.

And of course cheaters are not absolved of cheating. That’s never ok. However, I don’t think the cheating negates the mistakes of the LBS had in the marriage. They may be a victim of infidelity, but they are still guilty of their part in the breakdown of their M.

This is going to sound bad, but on my side of the street, I was probably one of those screwed LBS. short term marriage. Cheater all along, put up with a great deal, I should have been the one to left, but instead I went on to go through IVF and have a baby with this man. And the second his needs weren’t priority , he cheated ( and trust me, I knew he had to be some level of priority, so he was not neglected)

My side of the street is still my side. I knew who he was and ignored it . I hoped he would change abs eventually love me enough to treat me well and be faithful . That’s on me.

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Sage4, I hope nobody on the forums ever gives an LBS/WAS the impression they were even 1% responsible for their partner cheating on or abusing them. Misbehaving partners own their misbehavior.

I tend to see a pattern where a freshly LBS puts 90% of the blame for being left on themselves, but once they realize they can't "fix" the relationship, they put 90% of the blame on their partner. For most, growth lies in-between--accepting the role we played and accepting the role our partner played both in building the relationship and allowing it to fall apart. We can be better if we strive to be.

My XGF sometimes treated me harshly. Why did I accept that? When I had my "dream" family, why did I *still* neither address the clutter in my home nor let her touch it?



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Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by wayfarer
I can...LH when trying to drive a point home often comes off jaded as h3ll. Most of the time he's pushing extra hard because the LBS is not listening to the gentler kinder voices of reason. But once he cuts you, you can't stop hearing some of that bitterness when you read his words.
Wow I'm jaded and bitter lol. Funny because I feel great! Look Way I get it, you're a WW and your H is a WH so I understand your defense of the WS. My advice is always predicated on two things 1. They are not coming back anytime soon and 2. 95% of them aren't worth having back anytime soon. It's that really that simple. You should NEVER try to keep someone in your life who is trying to walk out of it. As the great LH19 likes to say "READ MY TAG LINE".
I always find the tagline interesting considering Will Smith cried about his WW in front of the whole world while she spewed your oh so favorite WW babble. It's still a good line though.


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Maybe that came out a little harsh. Let me clarify a bit with my own story.

In my own situation, I am 100% to blame for the position I was put in. You know why? My ex and I were off/on for years pre-marriage. Grew up together. I know her better than anyone ever will. She treated me like garbage during that off/on time that went on for years. We had not spoken for a year or so. One night I get a call from her. I am watching the phone ring, I know if I pick it up we will soon be back together, eventually marry and she WILL eventually cheat and leave. I know this. I remember the feeling distinctly watching the phone ring. Guess what I did... I picked up the phone and guess what happened....

So who is to blame? My ex for being exactly who she is and who she always has been? Or me?

So now it is time to look back and examine what happened. So I did a bunch of work, learned a ton about relationships in the hopes that this will never happen again. I had some flaws that I never knew existed until I looked, I knew nothing about love languages, I did not press when there were obviously serious issues developing in our relationship, I knew nothing about what an actual good relationship was or what it looked like. Do I take all the blame for my ex going off and cheating? Of course not, that is not acceptable. But I do take at least partial responsibility for getting into a relationship that was likely going to fail spectacularly, ignoring warning signs hoping they would go away, definitely poor communication and in general, just staying in a poor relationship probably for comfort more than anything else.

As Sage said: "we ALL should be on a perpetual path of growth and self-discovery"

I agree there!

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Originally Posted by pinn
Maybe that came out a little harsh. Let me clarify a bit with my own story.

In my own situation, I am 100% to blame for the position I was put in. You know why? My ex and I were off/on for years pre-marriage. Grew up together. I know her better than anyone ever will. She treated me like garbage during that off/on time that went on for years. We had not spoken for a year or so. One night I get a call from her. I am watching the phone ring, I know if I pick it up we will soon be back together, eventually marry and she WILL eventually cheat and leave. I know this. I remember the feeling distinctly watching the phone ring. Guess what I did... I picked up the phone and guess what happened....

So who is to blame? My ex for being exactly who she is and who she always has been? Or me?

So now it is time to look back and examine what happened. So I did a bunch of work, learned a ton about relationships in the hopes that this will never happen again. I had some flaws that I never knew existed until I looked, I knew nothing about love languages, I did not press when there were obviously serious issues developing in our relationship, I knew nothing about what an actual good relationship was or what it looked like. Do I take all the blame for my ex going off and cheating? Of course not, that is not acceptable. But I do take at least partial responsibility for getting into a relationship that was likely going to fail spectacularly, ignoring warning signs hoping they would go away, definitely poor communication and in general, just staying in a poor relationship probably for comfort more than anything else.

As Sage said: "we ALL should be on a perpetual path of growth and self-discovery"

I agree there!

Holy crap pinn. The base of our story is pretty similar . You get it. I get you.

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Originally Posted by pinn
So now it is time to look back and examine what happened. So I did a bunch of work, learned a ton about relationships in the hopes that this will never happen again. I had some flaws that I never knew existed until I looked, I knew nothing about love languages, I did not press when there were obviously serious issues developing in our relationship, I knew nothing about what an actual good relationship was or what it looked like. Do I take all the blame for my ex going off and cheating? Of course not, that is not acceptable. But I do take at least partial responsibility for getting into a relationship that was likely going to fail spectacularly, ignoring warning signs hoping they would go away, definitely poor communication and in general, just staying in a poor relationship probably for comfort more than anything else.

Starting or staying in a relationship with the expectation that maybe the person will grow into the person you want them to be is definitely on the LBS. None of us should be in a R with someone we *hope* will grow into a different person. That is a great opportunity for a LBS to do some self-work.

And likewise, going back to LH's tagline side convo, we shouldn't be in a R nor fighting to save a R when someone is trying to walk away from it. That is another opportunity for self-work and growth. "Why am I am motivated to save this and make them stay? What does that say about me, my insecurities, fears or expectations? Where do I need to grow? Am I codependent? Needy? Or just in shock at the moment?"

^^ Both of these are on the LBS. Within their control as an autonomous human.

But there are ways of leaving that result in less damage. I don't think we see those people here because those people are working through the end of the M with some integrity and dignity, even if there are hurt feelings and some natural ill will for a moment.

So, the majority of people here are dealing with the more caustic ends to marriages. And most of them ARE dealing with infidelity and abuse (I happened to believe infidelity IS abuse, BTW). So the LBS might need more of any of these things FIRST: 1. time; 2. support that this isn't about you; and 3. gentle nudges to behave in ways that they will feel proud of 2 years down the road, BEFORE they are able to spend heaps of time on the self-examination table.

If the LBS is ready to dive straight in to the self-examination and can do so with the clear intention of self-improvement for their own sake and not for the reward of earning their spouse back, then by all means go for it. Otherwise, the vacillation from 'it's 90% all my fault' to 'it's 90% all the WAS/WS' is a pretty normal arc in the pendulum swing. As long as the LBS doesn't take Wayfarer's 'Path to Bitterness' by remaining stuck in the blame, then it's OK to vacillate as long as it results in healing.

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