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Eagle3 Offline OP
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Link to my previous thread:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2918764#Post2918764

Short summary:

BD April 2019 with the famous ILYBNILWY.
Started an affair a few weeks before that timing. Immediately found out. Lying, spewing, rewriting of history, wanting both of us, etc. until I kicked him out 09/2019. Came back 2 months later, totally broken. (way too soon)
Final break-up with OW 02/2020.

COVID so home from 02/2020 until 08/2020. Deep outward depression, first signs of aknowledgement that something is really wrong with him. Still shows a lot of running behavior such as drinking heavily.

Accepts new job abroad since 04/2020, working from home since COVID, asked him to leave for the other country in 08/2020 since behavior is extremely bad for myself and my 3 boys, all teenagers.

From 09/2020 until 12/2020 slightly showing improvement whilst abroad, new running behavior...working out (sports) to an extreme level. As from 12/2020 clear set-back into tunnel (possible new OW in the picture)

01/2021 asked for divorce, I agree.

Same month he informs me that OW1 passed away. (suicide)

01/2021 - 06/2021: Process of D is in my hands, since he doesn't act.
Most of the financial stuff is arranged, except for the house which is still mutual but he pays half of all the costs currently. I stopped doing anything in regards to the D since I got stronger and completely detached now.

06/2021 - present: slight improvements, definitely towards kids (altough still very difficult) - quite convinced there has been an OW2 for about 6 months but affaire is breaking in pieces or has ended.
Planning to come back to home country (accepted new job within current company)

09/2021: aknowledges strongly he can't get out of it on his own, so now in contact with retired psychiatrist from his past.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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Start of thread 3, my lucky number, hopefully this means something laugh


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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What an amazing story! What an amazing psychiatrist! WOW. I would not even write this into a novel, it seems so impossible! I love this story so much. What hope that brings to this situation. Redemption is possible anywhere I guess.

That said, remember that you can't change anything about this. You can't save H. That will be up to him. You can only decide if you'll take him back.

Think of Mother Theresa, she would say whatever she had to say in love, but she was tough! People would come to ask for prayer advice and she would hand them a broom. Say what you need to say in love. If you think he doesn't know that you are standing, you can say it, once.


I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living.
Wait for the Lord with courage.
Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
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Eagle3 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Gerda
What an amazing story! What an amazing psychiatrist! WOW. I would not even write this into a novel, it seems so impossible! I love this story so much. What hope that brings to this situation. Redemption is possible anywhere I guess.

Yes, it is. I'm glad I have contacted the man. I know I can't change the situation or save H but I felt he was ready for it and he took the opportunity with both hands.
H actually thanked me several times for doing that.
He made an appointment and will visit him the end of september, while he is over to look after the children when I'm away on a city trip with my best friend.

Pretty life changing as well. It is the first time he actually offered to come over to look after the children while I'm away.

So the talking of the last months about losing his children seems to turn into actions which is good.
He is also much more active with them the last weeks via phone, whatsapp etc.
I'm happy for them.

Originally Posted by Gerda
Think of Mother Theresa, she would say whatever she had to say in love, but she was tough! People would come to ask for prayer advice and she would hand them a broom. Say what you need to say in love. If you think he doesn't know that you are standing, you can say it, once.

I've told him, he knows. Won't repeat it again. wink


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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Hi everyone,

No huge plans this weekend, but since they predict that this will be the last weekend where we have some summer temperatures we will enjoy it to the fullest.

Today mainly sports for the children. All sports are back in full swing after the summer holidays so this means playing taxi driver but I don't care, I actually enjoy this.

This evening (early evening) the twins 14 are going out with their friends for the first time, of course not too long but they are looking forward to it.

This means S17 and I can enjoy THE perfect hamburger in a very nice restaurant close to our home.

Tomorrow lunch with my parents and shopping with the kids in the afternoon, and then movie night in the evening. We're looking at some classics. Want to learn them what good movies are. grin

Enjoy your weekend xxx

Last edited by Eagle3; 09/25/21 01:09 PM.

Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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Eagle3 Offline OP
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Something to share which happened over the weekend.

FIL came by the house today.
Apparantely he received a phone call yesterday from H.
As you know H has almost no contact with his F since BD, although they were the best friends before his MLC.
FIL was also the first to mention about the retired psychiatrist shortly after BD and back then we tried to find him together but didn’t succeed and H knows some of it since I told him this story recently.
He also knows I told his F that I found the doctor and that H has made an appointment with him.

FIL always supported me heavily from the beginning, we have a very good relationship and he helped me with the kids in an incredible way, he is one of the most goodharted persons I got to know in my life until now.

Anyway, H called to say that FIL and I are one of the most honest and sincere people he knows, that the both of us have always supported him in our own way and understand what is really going on with him.
That he is so glad I searched for the psychiatrist and that this gesture is something he is very greatful for. His F is really cautious if it comes to H, he doesn’t trust him and even let him go about a year after BD because it was to painful for him to see his son turn into someone he didn’t know anymore. Therefore he didn’t say much on the phone, he simply listened and validated. (so handled it in the best way he could)

Seems H had a little peek out of the tunnel again…


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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Hello Eagle

It does sound like H has had further moments of clarity.

Hopefully, H’s long ago psychiatrist can be a catalyst for H to see his way.

A call to his Dad is a good sign. No idea how long H’s journey is, although he has taken some good sized steps lately.

It is nice to hear H speak about honesty and sincerity. And of course it is even nicer that you and FIL were the one’s being spoken about.

Keep on keeping on my dear. Time will tell all. Until then, be patient and live that great life.

Quite an update. Thanks for sharing it.

D


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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Eagle3 Offline OP
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Hi,

DnJ posted this to me a while ago:
‘One a personal note. Well everything here is meant for you. Ok, on a topic directly about your path. You are experiencing the stage of bargaining.
I found bargaining to be such a weird time. It is the last ditch emotional effort to hang on to that “old” normal. Before one moves forwards and let’s go. It’s the precursor to the depression that follows moving towards accepting the loss.’

I believe DnJ is right.

First of all you know that when H left the last time I was going to send him a message in regards to my acknowledgement of him seeing an OW2. I didn’t since I wanted to hold on to what was left between us because I saw improvements, and secondly I wanted to make sure he contacted the psychiatrist, which he did. (I understand now that these are two separate things)

Now this week back in the house since I was on a city trip and he wanted to look after the kids. Well, in all honesty, he is showing the worst behavior again, definitely towards the kids, even accused S17 of taking drugs. (This is only one example, there are many more)
He did meet the psychiatrist, is this the trigger for him acting out like this again, I don’t know, but I’m done with it.

I also saw something again, proof of OW2 being with him during the summer when he was travelling. Conclusion, found the strength to confront him with this. I can’t and won’t allow this anymore.

Why is it when things seem to improve, suddenly this changes and the worst behavior comes out again.

I need to let him go, really, I won’t allow it to be dragged into this once more.

I really want to find the strength now to get through this.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 403
Likes: 38
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Eagle3 Offline OP
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My next thread will be a bit of everything but I want to be clear as much as possible since I would like your opinions. I know this is an emotional thread, I'm clearly aware of that but it is what it is and I need to vent.

When I came back from my trip I asked him how the visit with the psychiatrist went. He was very brief in his communication. That all went well, that he had loss trauma, and that he developed learning disabilities because of that. Also that his Mother never has been a real M and that this was the cause of this, together with the divorce of his parents. I asked him if he would go again and he told me he received two names, but that they will most probably won't have time for him currently. He also said that he talked a lot with him and he told him things he needed to think through, that maybe he would go another time later this year, after he considered their conversation thoroughly. I guess this says it all.

Kids are fed up with the whole situation. They don't want to be with him anymore on a regular basis.
He said some very painfull and embarrassing things which I won't put on here.

Yesterday I created my own BD I guess. Confronted him with the fact that I saw proof of him being on trips with OW2 during summer and that this is adultory since we are still married. That this is too painful and that I don't want to be confronted with that. Been there once, don't want this anymore.

He doesn't want to talk, always runs away so only option was to send him this message by text.

I have done this in a very polite, and friendly way. No clinging at all. Can't do that anymore. Way past this now.

Of course replied in a very manipulative and controlling way.

He reffered to a conversation we had 3 weeks ago (he was tipsy to drunk then) whereby he mentioned that he had something going on with OW2 but that he doesn't know which direction this was going since he can't have a connection with anyone anymore, including her. So that there currently wasn't a relationship.

Told him correct, but you also told me that you were travelling alone, which clearly wasn't the case.
I've told him to be honest with me, I asked him if he was dating OW, didn't receive an answer. Sent him a new message and worded it differently, 'since you do not want to answer to this question, do you want to go further with your life without me? He replied, 'talk on Wednesday without kids'. (on Thursday he is leaving again)

He also stated in his messages that I've told him several times that I have let him go. That I was the one who wanted closure, and then he said "I can't be responsible for all you mind switches???'

Told him that my view on things never changed, that emotionally I had to let him go, because the situation was too painfull but that I still stood for our marriage, that I clearly mentioned this during our last conversation and several times before. (which you can see in my previous threads)

Therefore I need your guidance as to which ways this might go the following days.

Please know that I have reached the point whereby I will accept whatever direction this will go.
But I refuse to go on like this, I want to have answers, and they need to have a clear direction.

This evening he will come home drunk since he went for lunch with an aquaintance and afterwards to watch a football game. Will see what happens then but I will refuse to talk to him when drunk.

He is away from Monday till Wednesday on Business trip.

For the 'talk" on Wednesday I'm planning to put him for an ultimatum(I know, this is pressure, but I'm fed up, yes this is emotional talk, but I don't care anymore)

1/ Commitment to rebuilding relationship with homebase (= including children and me). He works on himself when coming back to home country, sees a psychiatrist on a regular basis.

2/ Go further with life without me by his side. House will be sold or can be bought in. D process can be started.

I know he will choose the 2nd option but I'm ready for it. I don't want another night wasting my sleep feeling anxious because I'm kept in the dark and being threated like a doormat.
I have been more than 2.5 years in the dark now. There is and end to everything.

Does this mean I'm giving up all the way? No, I'm giving up the current marriage and situation.

I know it will be difficult but option 1 would be equally difficult, definitely because he is still in full blown crisis.

God, what a mess...sorry for the outburst.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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Good Morning Eagle

(((Hugs)))

Breathe. It will be alright.

Let’s unpack some of what you said and together find your possibilities and forward path.

Yes, everything here is meant for you. Your well being is paramount. Marriage is a bonus, if it is meant to be.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
First of all you know that when H left the last time I was going to send him a message in regards to my acknowledgement of him seeing an OW2. I didn’t since I wanted to hold on to what was left between us because I saw improvements, and secondly I wanted to make sure he contacted the psychiatrist, which he did. (I understand now that these are two separate things)

H has contacted the psychiatrist. Good. You’ve done your part. The rest is on H. You can let this go now.

Back a few years ago I was grasping at straws. Bargaining and trying (note: trying not doing smile ) to get things back to how they were or more accurately start XW on her path to get her back to here. One of those “tries” was some medical information which I knew she would never accept from me. So, my one and only time I had my son pass on some helpful information to his Mom. She did nothing with the information.

I did what I could. Son knew I cared about his Mom and he did what he could. After that, she is in God’s hands.

Bargaining is part of our healing. It is a normal response to loss and a healthy part of the process.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
[This] will be a bit of everything but I want to be clear as much as possible since I would like your opinions. I know this is an emotional thread, I'm clearly aware of that but it is what it is and I need to vent.

This is a good place to vent. You are among understanding friends.

I will give you my opinion. Like always, directly and straightforwardly. You deserve and are worthy of such honest and open feedback.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I also saw something again, proof of OW2 being with him during the summer when he was travelling. Conclusion, found the strength to confront him with this. I can’t and won’t allow this anymore.

“I can’t and won’t allow this anymore.” You don’t control that. You have no power to forbid nor disallow H from seeing OW2 or OW3,4,5. You can only control you.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Why is it when things seem to improve, suddenly this changes and the worst behavior comes out again.

That’s the way the MLCer’s path goes. An improvement means they have some clarity of their life and their choices. That clarity not only brings into the light their past but their present as well. And a MLCers present is not a pretty sight. Loads of guilt and shame and wrongful accusations towards their loving spouse and immoral behaviour and terrible parenting and on and on.

They see some and they dive back into the tunnel. Each time growing a bit, and faltering a bit. It’s lots to face. Unfortunately they do keep digging the hole they are in. They continue to run.

Rock bottom is when they decide to face it and stop digging / running. Until then, it’s cycle. One which the LBS needs not watch nor have expectations towards. Hope is good. Keep expectations dialed down to zero.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I need to let him go, really, I won’t allow it to be dragged into this once more.

That is completely within your control. Well, influence actually. I will discuss this further in our discussion.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I really want to find the strength now to get through this.

You have the strength. You lack the direction and focus. I will clarify.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
When I came back from my trip I asked him how the visit with the psychiatrist went. He was very brief in his communication. That all went well, that he had loss trauma, and that he developed learning disabilities because of that. Also that his Mother never has been a real M and that this was the cause of this, together with the divorce of his parents. I asked him if he would go again and he told me he received two names, but that they will most probably won't have time for him currently. He also said that he talked a lot with him and he told him things he needed to think through, that maybe he would go another time later this year, after he considered their conversation thoroughly. I guess this says it all.

Nope, this doesn’t say it all. H has only started to uncover his trauma. Like the tip of an iceberg, that is what he sees. More remains below the surface.

Be hopeful. H actually went and talked to someone. He sees and acknowledges some of his past. This is far more than my XW has ever done. Consider that.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Kids are fed up with the whole situation. They don't want to be with him anymore on a regular basis. He said some very painfull and embarrassing things which I won't put on here.

Discuss openly with kids their wishes. At 17 and 14, your three boys are old enough to make informed decisions. Talk with them individually first to ensure each speaks their heart and mind without any peer affect.

Give it a week. Repeat the conversation and ensure their resolve. If they are resolute, take steps towards that end.

For all of this, provide answers and guidance regarding whatever comes up. Morality and such is a pretty common theme and questioned tenet. I’m pretty sure your lads are on a good track. Encourage them to continue such a path.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Yesterday I created my own BD I guess. Confronted him with the fact that I saw proof of him being on trips with OW2 during summer and that this is adultory since we are still married. That this is too painful and that I don't want to be confronted with that. Been there once, don't want this anymore.

Yes, you did create your own BD.

I’m not sure you meant the wording you used. It is completely accurate. It is your BD!

Your are ending (destroying) your bargaining. That “expectation-filled hope H will see the light and all hs is doing to me and the kids” stance. Letting go the last ditch effort to hang on to what was once the norm.

During this time it is pretty common to have loads of anger as well.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
He doesn't want to talk, always runs away so only option was to send him this message by text.

I have done this in a very polite, and friendly way. No clinging at all. Can't do that anymore. Way past this now.

Of course replied in a very manipulative and controlling way.

Well, not really. You had other options. Sending the text “felt” like the correct option.

This text serves it purpose for you. However, it did stir H and place a bunch of pressure upon him. Of course, his response was less than upfront.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
He reffered to a conversation we had 3 weeks ago (he was tipsy to drunk then) whereby he mentioned that he had something going on with OW2 but that he doesn't know which direction this was going since he can't have a connection with anyone anymore, including her. So that there currently wasn't a relationship.

It so interesting how people can justify things. Notice what comes after “but”. Pure justification for what preceded it. In H’s view he is technically correct and therefore not lying.

This is why relationship conversations are not recommended nor going to lead to any resolution at the moment. H is broken.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
He also stated in his messages that I've told him several times that I have let him go. That I was the one who wanted closure, and then he said "I can't be responsible for all you mind switches???'

They are masters of manipulation. H is turning the tables on you. Do not buy into his twisted justifications.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Told him that my view on things never changed, that emotionally I had to let him go, because the situation was too painfull but that I still stood for our marriage, that I clearly mentioned this during our last conversation and several times before.

To H, this placed you firmly on the shelf and waiting for him.

Less words is better.

Telling him you let go is much less effective than just doing it.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
(which you can see in my previous threads)

Your conversation to H was for you, not H. This part in parentheses shows that. Yes, you’ve done all you can do. Give H to God and let go. It’s ok.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Therefore I need your guidance as to which ways this might go the following days.

Please know that I have reached the point whereby I will accept whatever direction this will go.
But I refuse to go on like this, I want to have answers, and they need to have a clear direction.

My dear friend, it’s not the answers you desperately seek, for you are still formulating the deep questions. Regardless, clear direction is still possible and helps with finding both question and answer.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
For the 'talk" on Wednesday I'm planning to put him for an ultimatum(I know, this is pressure, but I'm fed up, yes this is emotional talk, but I don't care anymore)

For what’s it worth, those that say “I don’t care” actually do care. One who truly doesn’t care, doesn’t care enough to mention it, they just leave or move on or whatever.

So, let’s agree and admit you still care. (((Hug))) Bargaining is a weird place.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
1/ Commitment to rebuilding relationship with homebase (= including children and me). He works on himself when coming back to home country, sees a psychiatrist on a regular basis.

2/ Go further with life without me by his side. House will be sold or can be bought in. D process can be started.

No ultimatum!

Why would you place your future and your decisions into H’s hands? By the way, one of those questions you are wanting an answer to. An answer you didn’t even know you wanted or needed.

This ultimatum is your. You are asking it of yourself. You are forcing and basing this upon your emotions. Do not pursue this course given that which is propelling you. Regret will follow. Decisions based upon feelings seldom lead to good directions for life.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I know he will choose the 2nd option but I'm ready for it. I don't want another night wasting my sleep feeling anxious because I'm kept in the dark and being threated like a doormat.
I have been more than 2.5 years in the dark now. There is and end to everything.

No, you do not know what he will choose. You expect he wil choose. And that is festering within you. Let go of that.

Originally Posted by DnJ
That is completely within your control. Well, influence actually. I will discuss this further in our discussion.

You have the strength. You lack the direction and focus. I will clarify.

You are only a doormat if you lay there. Right now, at this moment, you are letting go of bargaining. Letting go your emotional hanging on to what was once the norm. That feels bad! I know. Let it pass before making any major changes.

You are not a doormat. Standing is not being a doormat.

You have ample strength. Seriously, you do. What you’re not seeing - doing nothing is doing something.

You have plenty of strength to go with option 1 or 2. No doubts about that! Do you have the strength to not do either? Do you have the strength to focus on you and your life? To live your great life? Do you have the strength to let go?

We incorrectly equate strong and strength to hanging on or lifting or some action. True, in the physical realm strength is expressed in physical action. In the emotional realm, true strength is expressed in stepping back and not grabbing on.

We all can rush in and offer help and hope and feelings and such. It takes a high EQ and strength to remain calm and do what is actually required, rather than what we feel to be.

This is most true in our own lives. We live our life. We control ourselves. We benefit from good decisions and suffer consequences for poor decisions.

Your anxiety-filled sleep is from within. Nothing to do with H. Counterintuitive, yes? It is a good thing that it has nothing to do with H, otherwise you’d not be able to find peace.

Eagle, you will find your internal peace. And it will not come from option 1 or 2.

I understand your frustration and feeling that you are living in the dark. Step out of it. Step into the light.

As I said, the questions and answers you are seeking are not what you think they are. They are both within you, awaiting your own kind of awakening.

As bargaining dies, hope fades. Anger rises for a while. Be emotionally strong and stay your path. Return your focus to you. As the anger fades, depression sets in, replacing our feelings and hope for that which was once the norm.

This too shall pass. Depression passes. Acceptance will be found. Have faith. Hope returns. Love returns. Life returns. All anew and stronger than before.

Depending upon on our choices along the way, sets our path and somewhat the eventual outcome. Doing nothing is doing something. Besides, you’ll have plenty sorting out to do inside you.

Sword and shield my friend. Control what you can. Influence what you will.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Does this mean I'm giving up all the way? No, I'm giving up the current marriage and situation.

Letting go is not giving up. Be careful of your wording. You are not giving up.

So, do you want a divorce? Do you want to end your marriage?

Divorced or not, changes nothing with what H is doing. Your pushing of this is an attempt to get him to awaken. It will have the opposite effect. Unless you need the financial protection and security from a divorce, let go this course.

Let go bargaining. Let go the situation. Get though depression. Find acceptance. Become healed and whole. Then make your decisions.

Direct and straightforward. I believe you are worth such investment. What do you believe?

D


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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Eagle3 Offline OP
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Breathe. It will be alright.

Thanks. I know I will. This one will have a little more structure. 😉

I have been in the bargaining phase the beginning of this year, followed by depression, came out, proceeded with D as I was ready for it, (remember I was about to sell the house), but went back about 3 months ago. Why, because I saw improvement in H, believed the manipulative behavior (he did not want to sell so he did his thing to draw me back in, which worked…), but had an awakening the last days. I guess I’m mad at myself for having this relapse.

Originally Posted by DnJ
“I can’t and won’t allow this anymore.” You don’t control that. You have no power to forbid nor disallow H from seeing OW2 or OW3,4,5. You can only control you. D[quote]

I know I only control my path. My wording was wrong. I know this, this is upon him, but I can say to not allow this in my life.

[quote=DnJ]Be hopeful. H actually went and talked to someone. He sees and acknowledges some of his past. This is far more than my XW has ever done. Consider that.D[quote]

Yes DnJ, I’m hopeful, hopeful for him that this can help him to follow the right direction and proceed with healing.

But I have a choice not to wait for this anymore.

This evening he accused me of pulling the kids away from him (have always done the exact opposite, he is the one pushing them away but he needs someone to blame), I suffocate him (he is already a year away from home, I never initiate calls or texts), he wants divorce, he’s paying too much money for the kids etc. Blame-blame-blame. Can he do that, Of course, but I don’t want to hear it anymore. Yet again my choice. So I walk away.

[quote=DnJ]Discuss openly with kids their wishes. At 17 and 14, your three boys are old enough to make informed decisions. Talk with them individually first to ensure each speaks their heart and mind without any peer affect.

I have done this. S17 doesn’t want to live anymore under one roof with him. He wants our own place, and wants to visit his father once and awhile, not on a regular basis. He is not old enough to decide this following our law, but they ask the preference of the children.

Twins14 both have the same opinion. They will go regularly but only 2 days every 14 days. Only when his behavior is ok.

[quote=DnJ]Yes, you did create your own BD.
I’m not sure you meant the wording you used. It is completely accurate. It is your BD!D[quote]

Haha, I meant the wording I used!

[quote=DnJ]Less words is better.

Telling him you let go is much less effective than just doing it.D

I know. I always use too much words. I’m a bit of a control freak and always think they won’t understand me if I don’t point it out clearly.

My dear friend, it’s not the answers you desperately seek, for you are still formulating the deep questions. Regardless, clear direction is still possible and helps with finding both question and answer.

[quote=DnJ]For what’s it worth, those that say “I don’t care” actually do care. One who truly doesn’t care, doesn’t care enough to mention it, they just leave or move on or whatever.
So let’s agree and admit you still care.

No ultimatum!

Of course I agree. I do still care and an ultimatum is not an option.
(Anger = emotion took over in this sentence)

Thank you for the last part of your reply. All the answers are in there, and I even didn’t have to think about it. (Was exactly what I wanted when I came out of bargaining/ depression last time)

I do know what I want:

Do I want to be divorced?
No, I only want financial security, which is ok for now, with exception of the house. If I want to buy a new house, I will need to be divorced, otherwise all our belongings are still mutual. Something to keep in mind.

Do I still want to live under one roof with him, even though it is only a few days a month?
No, I don’t. I want to have my own place, separately from him, meaning he has to buy it or we need to sell it.

Do I want to let go and leave it in the hands of ….???
Yes, I want to let go. I’m standing for me now.
If H chooses the right path again, we will see from there.

Glad this is just before bedtime. This will give me some peace this night.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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Sorry, less structured then I thought it would be. Typing on an I phone is not working that well. And can’t amend anymore. The entire post seems to be from DnJ but is not the case. You’ll see my answers every time underneath. wink


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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Hi Eagle

Thought I’d give you hand.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Breathe. It will be alright.

Thanks. I know I will. This one will have a little more structure. 😉

I have been in the bargaining phase the beginning of this year, followed by depression, came out, proceeded with D as I was ready for it, (remember I was about to sell the house), but went back about 3 months ago. Why, because I saw improvement in H, believed the manipulative behavior (he did not want to sell so he did his thing to draw me back in, which worked…), but had an awakening the last days. I guess I’m mad at myself for having this relapse.

Originally Posted by DnJ
“I can’t and won’t allow this anymore.” You don’t control that. You have no power to forbid nor disallow H from seeing OW2 or OW3,4,5. You can only control you.

I know I only control my path. My wording was wrong. I know this, this is upon him, but I can say to not allow this in my life.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Be hopeful. H actually went and talked to someone. He sees and acknowledges some of his past. This is far more than my XW has ever done. Consider that.

Yes DnJ, I’m hopeful, hopeful for him that this can help him to follow the right direction and proceed with healing.

But I have a choice not to wait for this anymore.

This evening he accused me of pulling the kids away from him (have always done the exact opposite, he is the one pushing them away but he needs someone to blame), I suffocate him (he is already a year away from home, I never initiate calls or texts), he wants divorce, he’s paying too much money for the kids etc. Blame-blame-blame. Can he do that, Of course, but I don’t want to hear it anymore. Yet again my choice. So I walk away.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Discuss openly with kids their wishes. At 17 and 14, your three boys are old enough to make informed decisions. Talk with them individually first to ensure each speaks their heart and mind without any peer affect.

I have done this. S17 doesn’t want to live anymore under one roof with him. He wants our own place, and wants to visit his father once and awhile, not on a regular basis. He is not old enough to decide this following our law, but they ask the preference of the children.

Twins14 both have the same opinion. They will go regularly but only 2 days every 14 days. Only when his behavior is ok.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Yes, you did create your own BD.

I’m not sure you meant the wording you used. It is completely accurate. It is your BD!

Haha, I meant the wording I used!

Originally Posted by DnJ
Less words is better.

Telling him you let go is much less effective than just doing it.

I know. I always use too much words. I’m a bit of a control freak and always think they won’t understand me if I don’t point it out clearly.

Originally Posted by DnJ
My dear friend, it’s not the answers you desperately seek, for you are still formulating the deep questions. Regardless, clear direction is still possible and helps with finding both question and answer.

Originally Posted by DnJ
For what’s it worth, those that say “I don’t care” actually do care. One who truly doesn’t care, doesn’t care enough to mention it, they just leave or move on or whatever.
So let’s agree and admit you still care.

No ultimatum!

Of course I agree. I do still care and an ultimatum is not an option.
(Anger = emotion took over in this sentence)

Thank you for the last part of your reply. All the answers are in there, and I even didn’t have to think about it. (Was exactly what I wanted when I came out of bargaining/ depression last time)

I do know what I want:

Do I want to be divorced?
No, I only want financial security, which is ok for now, with exception of the house. If I want to buy a new house, I will need to be divorced, otherwise all our belongings are still mutual. Something to keep in mind.

Do I still want to live under one roof with him, even though it is only a few days a month?
No, I don’t. I want to have my own place, separately from him, meaning he has to buy it or we need to sell it.

Do I want to let go and leave it in the hands of ….???
Yes, I want to let go. I’m standing for me now.
If H chooses the right path again, we will see from there.

Glad this is just before bedtime. This will give me some peace this night.

Sleep well.


Feelings are fleeting.
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Love the person, forgive the sin.
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Eagle3 Offline OP
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Thank you DnJ. What would I do without you...

Your last post gave me a clear direction again for which I'm so thankfull.

After monstering on Sunday evening H is in guilty-modus again and has been extremely friendly so I took the opportunity to have everything in writing in regards to the house and he agreed.

Now of course he need to take action. (request for a loan so he can buy in)

This afternoon he is coming over to the house to talk. His request. Will see what he has to say. I won't say much, just listen and I'll see from there. Tomorrow he is off to the other country again.

Wish me luck!

Have a nice day.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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Good Morning Eagle

Well done!

Be patient and opportunities do present themselves. And being prepared for those opportunities is a good thing.

See what this afternoon’s talk brings, and go from there.

Wishing you good luck!

D


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Went for a drink with H yesterday as he wanted to talk.

What really struck me is how broken this man is, he is still trying to revive it but I can't imagine this will go on for years. You can see how he also realizes it slightly, but is still in the phase where he doesn't want or can't change anything yet. (examples of his realization are that he knows he has a major depression, that his problems are relatated to the love he never had from his mother but he doesn't seem to make the link that he projects this on the people he loves the most)
Anyway, this is in his hands, not in mine anymore.

I just wanted to give you a brief outline of what his way of thinking is.

H would love nothing more than to be able to live his own life (including having OW's)
but still function as a family.
He sincerely believes this and really could not understand that this was not possible for me.
He gave an example of a famous couple who still live together with their children under the same roof. (was in the paper last week)
Important nuance, those people have 1 clear boundary, they do this as long as the two parties don't have another partner in their lives.
When I clarified this he seemed to understand a bit what I meant but this was gone just as quickly.

I made it clear to him that this is not what I want.
He seemed to accept that perfectly, but couldn't understand it, and if I can't do that, then there is no other option then to go forward with the divorce, I simply agreed.

At one point he said that I am the woman of his life but that today he cannot give me what I want but that I will always come first.
If there is a family party that I have to attend, another woman will never be welcome there. He decides what to do in his life, another woman will have nothing to say.
(I guess he will always have relationships of very short duration…)

He also became more talkative about his visit to the psychiatrist and his current relationship with his mother. So H knows that he has depression and has also discussed this with the psychiatrist.
However, this psychiatrist has not recommended any medication for H, the reason is because he is still functioning in his job and if he started taking medication he would have too many other side effects that could affect his functioning at work.

As for his mother. He sees his mother as a handy tool (this is exactly the word he used!!). She is good to pick him up and take him to the airport, to know the latest gossip (she always has something to say about everyone, H likes to hear all these stories since his MLC and through her he knows everything).
The bottom line is that he will treat her the same now as she has treated him all her life. He knows she treats him like a child because she thinks she will get money from him, and thus gives her "hope" but he will never give her anything, he wants to punish her for what she has done. (I honestly didn't know what I heard, even less what to say to that, so I just kept quiet...)

Conclusion of the conversation:
• We continue with the divorce, I'm picking up where I left it a few months ago.
• I retain custody of the children, he will have them 1 weekend every 2 weeks.
• He checks to buy in the house, as long as the full process is not completed, he will stay in airBnB when in the country, so no longer in the house.

Furthermore, he plans not to move to the home country but to a neighboring country. Supposedly for the money, because he can earn more in that country because of the different way of taxation, in reality I think this is an intermediate step, that he wants to live closer but not completely in his own country yet.

How do I feel about it:

For me today it gave and still gives me a feeling of liberation, of relief for now. When you start looking at them from a distance, you actually realize that you can't change their condition.
So I am at peace with it. I'm relieved that I can let go of the burden that I'am the one who had to help him go through this. I actually believed this for a very long time. I realize more and more I can't.

H just sent a text message: Thanks for talking and listening yesterday. I hope we keep doing that because I will also need this on how to handle the kids and so on.

My answer: You're welcome. You know that you will be able to count on me in difficult times, however some things will take time and space.

Unfortunately, I can't pretend to be anything other than who I actually am. I have therefore also sent this answer, because I know that this is what I will effectively apply to him.

But I will now fully initiate the letting go process.

So on the way to a new life. Together with the support of my loving family, friends, and above all, all of you who understand me so well, I know I will get there!

xxx


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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Let’s run his conversation through the Universal BS Translator, shall we?

“Why oh why can’t I continue to have my cake and eat it too? Why can’t I live away from my family and live like a single man and indulge my sexual fantasies and avoid responsibility for raising my children, while you chastely wait on the shelf and raise my children and keep my house do I can come and go as I please? Oh, and don’t YOU get involved with another man, because that would upset me, even though I don’t give a sh!t about the pain my cheating causes you”.

Call it for what it is. Move forward. A better life awaits you.

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Hello Eagle

H is one lost and confused soul.

He clearly displays some of the major hallmarks of a MLC. Crisis individuals display confusion. Not just a “hey where am I”, they display a deep profound disconnect. That disconnect comes from them living two (or more) simultaneous lives. I don’t mean some cover up lying - I mean really living two different view points inside their head.

BD usually is a time where one view becomes predominate and they really start running. If it is fated, some slow their running and those other view(s) return to the fore. An awakening would have such duality of life with none to very little running behaviours.

H is very confused. Wants to have his own life and still be a family. He can understand why you have the view you have and then he cannot understand. Back and forth he will switch, ping-ponging and flip-flopping. He is still running and still within the abyss of a crisis.

His view of his Mom is pretty interesting. Especially the language and wording he used. Lots of buried stuff regarding that, methinks.

And of course he had the MLCer standard example of the “other couple” that this works for. Lol.

H is still driven by emotions. These different views of his are all valid and true - at the time he is feeling them. That may be for mere seconds to minutes to hours. You saw him switch right in front of your eyes and within the space of two sentences.

Emotions and irrational convictions. That is where and what his living at the moment. Nothing you can say or do will lift him out of that. He has to work his own way through.

kml’s succinct summary translation is pretty accurate of the completely irrational view he is feeling.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
For me today it gave and still gives me a feeling of liberation, of relief for now. When you start looking at them from a distance, you actually realize that you can't change their condition.

So glad you feel liberated and a sense of relief. It is quite a view once we step back and take it in. We really are quite powerless to affect their path. Not so for our path.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
So I am at peace with it. I'm relieved that I can let go of the burden that I'am the one who had to help him go through this. I actually believed this for a very long time. I realize more and more I can't.

Love that peaceful feeling. And yes, letting go is so much a relief.

I really like you finding this belief you needed to alter, to discard. We all hold certain convictions, certain beliefs. Strengthen those that serve. Alter/discard those that don’t. Believing you had to help H go through this took some time and distance for you to realize and then alter. Well done! Be proud, that is no small task or small victory. This is a major step forward and a major step in healing. Our beliefs and values shape and define our world, and you are doing very well with your world view.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Conclusion of the conversation:
• We continue with the divorce, I'm picking up where I left it a few months ago.
• I retain custody of the children, he will have them 1 weekend every 2 weeks.
• He checks to buy in the house, as long as the full process is not completed, he will stay in airBnB when in the country, so no longer in the house.

Very good. I hope he does continue as he stated.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
So on the way to a new life. Together with the support of my loving family, friends, and above all, all of you who understand me so well, I know I will get there!

Absolutely you will get there!

Take your time discovering that new life. You are worth doing it right and fully.

For the next little while you have some legal stuff to sort out. You’ve got a good plan and had things ready. You’ve done all you could do and now is the time to continue.

You so got this!

D


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Originally Posted by kml
“Why oh why can’t I continue to have my cake and eat it too? Why can’t I live away from my family and live like a single man and indulge my sexual fantasies and avoid responsibility for raising my children, while you chastely wait on the shelf and raise my children and keep my house do I can come and go as I please? Oh, and don’t YOU get involved with another man, because that would upset me, even though I don’t give a sh!t about the pain my cheating causes you”.

Pretty straightforward but ohhh so true. Thank you for your honesty.

Originally Posted by kml
Call it for what it is. Move forward. A better life awaits you.

I know...first getting through the D now...


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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Originally Posted by DnJ
For the next little while you have some legal stuff to sort out. You’ve got a good plan and had things ready. You’ve done all you could do and now is the time to continue.

You so got this!D

I will move forward now indeed. Thank you DnJ.

Received some news today from SIL which I need to process.

Apparantely H shared some pictures of him and OW2 a few weeks ago with his youngest brother.
So nobody did officially know he was seeing someone else, of course they had their doubts, but now he simply sent some pictures with the comment @.....right now.

Hi did exactly the same thing with his younger brother a week ago. 1 picture of the both together, simply mentioning @.......

So this is the first time in 3 years he really shared hard evidence of an OW with anybody. But smart enough did not tell anybody she is his OW.

The whole family knows now, except for the children and me.

I feel very uncomfortable, for myself but definitely also towards the kids.

I can't tolerate anymore the fact he is lying to all of us.

I've always been very honest towards the children but now I don't know what to do.

S17 overheard the conversation and is furious. He wants to quit communication with him.
Twins14 are not aware yet but know something is going on.

Do I need to tell them? They've asked and I told them I don't want to share the information right now but that I would think about it.

Is it OK to tell the children that the suspected relationship their father is having is for real and that the family is aware of it?

I know 1 of them will break all contact as well. He told me several times in the past he would not tolerate this in his life when he knows for sure.

I personally want to go NC with him, have done enough and can't bare his BS anymore about his FOO's and depression etc.

Then we have the fact that SIL told this in privacy, I don't want her to get in trouble.

How do I deal with this?

Thx.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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Oh Eagle, this is all such hard stuff to navigate.

I too have been in a similar situation and have grappled with the same dilemma with regards to the children. Mine are younger than yours, however I don't think that changes the approach.

Some of what has carried me through my situation has been the thought that I will not feel this way forever. DnJ's 'feelings are fleeting' (ha! read his last post about the empty coffee bin distracting him from his dark thoughts about J leaving 4 years ago today).

So first, in this very moment in time, do nothing. Because anything you do or say to the children will be fueled by your feelings and not your rational brain. You need to process this information on your own before you can process it out loud with your boys.

Then, ask yourself if telling the boys: 'is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?' If the answer in your heart is 'no' to any of these questions, then don't say anything and keep waiting for a while.

I have some truths that I live by with regards to raising my children:

1. I don't believe in lying. To children or to adults.
2. I believe that children will ask the questions they are ready for the answers to.

If you hold similar values, then you don't say anything until the children ask directly, because they if they don't want to know, they will not ask. And when/if they do ask, listen very carefully to how they word their question. Your answer should only be in response to what they ask, nothing more. Maybe they say 'Mama, I think Dad has an OW' then you would ask them 'what makes you think that?' and listen to what they say. Or 'do you think Dad has an OW?' you might say 'I am not 100% sure.' <= Our instinct here is to continue on with '...but I think so' and that part can be dropped.

Be comfortable with silences and be comfortable with not having an answer right away (you were SO good to say 'I am not able to answer this right now' with S17-- it is always OK for any human to say to another person 'I need to think about that, I will get back to you').

In summary:
1. Don't offer information that is not directly asked for
2. Answer questions in increments, do not offer more than they are asking for
3. Attempt to protect your children for your children's sake, if you can do so without lying

I am sure that voices wiser than mine will chime in with different advice and I look forward to reading them. In the meantime, give yourself a big hug and lots of grace as you get through the next few days with this information.

(((Eagle)))

xx
Sage

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Good Morning Eagle

Love what Sage said.

For the moment do nothing. Allow your emotions to calm and for you to find your center again. Posting here and seeking advice does just that - well done!

Children do ask questions when they are ready for the answers. Age appropriate answers. That is the tricky part.

And telling the truth is best. Lying is a path that doesn’t lead to a good place.

Originally Posted by Sage4
Then, ask yourself if telling the boys: 'is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?' If the answer in your heart is 'no' to any of these questions, then don't say anything and keep waiting for a while.

Look to your rational mind, not your heart.

Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?

Each questions gets harder to answer than the one before.

Is it true? Pretty easy, at first. How much truth does one provide? And realize there is no absolute truth. There is your truth and H’s truth. Explaining both does answer many subsequent questions.

Is it kind? True kindness has a long view. The moment may appear somewhat different than the eventual outcome.

Is it necessary? Emotional growth. Morals. Responsibility. You are a parent, a role model. The parent. The role model. You are tasked with raising responsible good men. There are certain necessities along that path.

Eagle, these situations are a quandary. Ask yourself why. Why is this such a quandary?

There are many facets to that answer. Age appropriate, shielding children, breaking implied trust of SIL, etc. All summed up, you have worry and fear of doing the wrong thing. Let’s assuage that. And clarify some things so you can see more clearly see your path.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
The whole family knows now, except for the children and me.

I feel very uncomfortable, for myself but definitely also towards the kids.

A difficult place to be in. “Officially” the whole family, except you and the kids, know. You feel uncomfortable living amidst that lie.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I can't tolerate anymore the fact he is lying to all of us.

You can tolerate more. You don’t want to.

“Can’t” robs you of your power. Do or do not. Will or will not.

There is very little that is truly “cannot”. If you decide on an action based upon the “fact” that you can’t tolerate this anymore, you give up your direction and control over the situation.

The “fact” is you are deciding that you won’t tolerate this lying anymore. You are going to stand up, be the role model, and lead you and the kids forward. Look to what you can do; not to what you feel you can’t.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Do I need to tell them? They've asked and I told them I don't want to share the information right now but that I would think about it.

Is it OK to tell the children that the suspected relationship their father is having is for real and that the family is aware of it?

S20 came over yesterday afternoon. He stayed overnight for today’s Thanksgiving visit and supper with the rest of the family. So while making supper for just him and I, I asked his opinion. S20 was S16 at BD, so pretty close in age to your boys currently.

His advice, is to tell them. And tell everything. Age appropriate with no over-the-top details obviously.

Be factual and open. You can and should explain cheating, immoral behaviour, adultery, and so on. They have questions and need answers. It’s our task to raise our children to be responsible healthy stable adults. And that doesn’t happen without some guidance. That needed guidance will come from elsewhere if you do not provide it. It is best if you have a hand in it.

My son listed off his friends, and yes, half of the families are divorced. Some are doing pretty well, and some families are complete disasters. The latter group has many commonalities. The main common theme is lying. Covering up the truth.

In one particular family, the uncle has had sex with all the children of his family. All the uncle’s sibling families, except my son’s friend’s mom and dad were covering it up when this news came out. They strongly urged and pushed this matter to the police. And now son’s friend’s family is black-listed and ostracized by the rest.

However, son’s friend is doing good! He is healthy and has parents that stand up for proper morals and values.

S20 assured me (and you) that 17 and 14 is older than you think. Having the full story of what is going on just under the surface all the time, having it hidden from you, is not helpful. They know something is going on and are kept in the dark. Getting the facts and details will hurt and will heal.

Son then said something that totally convinced me that I did right. He said, we are the rare ones.

I agreed, recalling how XW/Mom went nuclear and blew up our lives and threw everyone away.

No, he said, the rare part is now. Where you are.

Huh? I admit I was taken aback. Stunned. What do you mean? I asked.

Son elaborated. You are happy. I am happy. Having all those sordid and immoral details out in the open, seeing how you handled them, the kindness, the morals displayed by you. Where you and we are now. Most don’t get here because they don’t have the facts and details of what happened.

OMG! To have been told so directly.

Children are a product of our marriages. In that, they are part of our marriages. They are, therefore, part of our divorces.

Do not neglect the most important parts of our lives. That is you and the children.

I followed up and ask several more questions. Clarifying my son’s view. We discussed for quite some time. Would it have been better to hide or not have had some certain details. Son considered for a time and - No. That was a rational absolute assured answer from a brilliant quantum physicist. I’d place a lot of stock in his hands. Heck, I’d place my life in his, or any of my children’s, hands.

Trust is the bases for everything that follows. Or lying can be.

Turns out we are listened to, followed, a role model, an example, far more than even I believed. Trust, respect, kindness, compassion, understanding, empathy, acceptance, forgiveness, love, joy. Live the good tenets.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I know 1 of them will break all contact as well. He told me several times in the past he would not tolerate this in his life when he knows for sure.

I personally want to go NC with him, have done enough and can't bare his BS anymore about his FOO's and depression etc.

Then we have the fact that SIL told this in privacy, I don't want her to get in trouble.

How do I deal with this?

Let go the fear and do the right thing.

Tell SIL you know about the pictures. Tell her you are going to inform the kids. And, as my son even said, let the chips fall where they do.

In the end, if maintaining a relationship with SIL requires covering up and keeping things from your children, it is not worth it.

Your boys have directly asked you. Do not exaggerate or embellish Dad’s pursuits. Do not demonize Dad. Do not down play his behaviour either.

Lead and be a beacon towards: Love the sinner. Forgive the sin. And all the other steps along the way. (((Hugs)))

D


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Hi Sage, Hi DnJ,

Difficult night and day. Emotions went all over the place, luckily it was busy so could remove my thoughts regularly.

Love your post Sage. I indeed have exactly the same values.

I'm glad that I was able to feel my out of control emotions and to accept them, and above all, simply do nothing with them, but to vent here first and listen to all of your wise advice.

And the truth is, after reading your posts, I truly feel more at ease and I know what to do.
will only wait a few more days, just to be sure.

DnJ, I'm so greatful you've asked S20's opinion. You can't imagine how important this is to me. This is someone who went through it, and the fact he is giving such a wise answers means you handled it so well.

I'm thinking of translating your S20's feedback and to explain it to the children. It will mean a lot to them knowing they are not alone facing these horrible situations.

So, please thank him for his open and trustworthy vision.

In the meantime I made the draft of the divorce papers by mutual consent. (didn't have to amend a lot since this was already prepared last May)

I have giving him one month to find a loan for the house, otherwise we'll start with the selling.

The e-mail I sent was short and businesslike.
Hope he'll answer in a positive way.

xxx


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
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09/23-possible back with OW2
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FYI, he replied in a businesslike way, same as I did.

Simply said, will read through it tomorrow and sign if all ok.

Guess he really wants this divorce now.
He’s never been more sure.
And this after almost 3 years in replay.

I have a weird feeling about his words,
didn’t expect this but is for the best I guess.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
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Good Morning Eagle

It is interesting H answered your businesslike email so quickly.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Guess he really wants this divorce now.
He’s never been more sure.
And this after almost 3 years in replay.

There is nothing particular to read into H’s response; just that he was feeling like it was the right thing to do in the moment.

Remember H isn’t rationally uncoupling his reinforcement like you are. Most everything he does is emotionally driven. That’s something to remember when negotiating or conversing with him. H will not behave or negotiate rationally. It requires a certain timing and finesse to find resolution with an emotional and irrational person. A bit of luck certainly helps too. smile

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I have a weird feeling about his words,
didn’t expect this but is for the best I guess.

I’d have been surprised if you didn’t have a weird feeling about all this. Your response is perfectly normal and healthy.

Let those feeling subside and purposefully reinforce your rational view. I bet you will no longer “guess” about this being the best course of action. (By the way, “I guess” is from your emotional response rising and producing those self doubts.)

And, “is for the best” is a matter of perspective. It is what it is. “Best” will be what you make it.

We all play the hand we are dealt. Best, comes from how we play the hand.

Better not bitter.

Be the best you will be.

You’re doing just fine my friend.

D


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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Originally Posted by DnJ
It is interesting H answered your businesslike email so quickly.
Remember H isn’t rationally uncoupling his reinforcement like you are. Most everything he does is emotionally driven. That’s something to remember when negotiating or conversing with him. H will not behave or negotiate rationally. It requires a certain timing and finesse to find resolution with an emotional and irrational person. D
And DnJ is right again… grin
Yesterday I got a reply from H.
And that was a lot less businesslike.

His reply on the document leaves little to the imagination. Manipulation at its best.

I have an appointment with a mediator tomorrow, but I also want to hear your opinion on how to answer.

His biggest problem: paying alimony for the children. In my country this is calculated on income, and H is making a lot of money right now. Also when he comes back I have an idea of what he will earn and the alimony he pays today is even just a little less than it should be. (and that is calculated on the absolute minimum he is going to earn, my guess it will be more but I’ve calculated with worst case scenario) H is not aware of this or does not want to see this at all. He honestly believes he is paying way too much.

During our conversation last week, he again asked week/week custody for the children. The kids don't want this. They want to start with 1 weekend every 2 weeks. I told him that he should talk about this with the children why they don't want this, he refuses and then said that he was going to take into account what they wanted. Judging by his answer now, this is no longer the case at all. I will word it differently. H abuses this to pay less alimony.

Described in detail in the document:
Me: When H effectively moves back to home country and buys in the house, it is possible to switch to a custody arrangement of 1 weekend every 2 weeks with the father, to be mutually agreed.
His answer: This has been drawn up one-sided, this without my consent. I do not agree.
Me: Alimony for 2021 has already been paid until 31/12/2021. From 01/01/2022 alimony will need to be paid again, the same amount as today, being XXXX/month or XXXX/year.
His answer: This is the amount that was "agreed" on the basis of the current salary. In home country this is neither feasible nor compliant at all. Since visitation arrangements were drawn up unilaterally, no input was given on alimony. Spouse's proposal is 1 week per 2 in which no alimony is required. If the wife wishes to unilaterally refuse this, then alimony discussion must at least be discussed and adjusted.

Do you see what he's doing? He tries to put it in my shoes that I don't want a week/week and tries to manipulate to pay less alimony.

Any idea how best to respond to this?

1 day later and I have already received a text message from him, however I still left it unread. But saw that he put: "Since no answer can I assume you will make changes to the document?"

The child is starting to kick around in the wild.

I can only state that he is clearly losing his grip on me, and he knows it.

Last edited by Eagle3; 10/12/21 07:52 PM.

Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
Eagle3 #2924854 10/12/21 08:49 PM
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Child support - alimony is spousal support.

In the US, he would owe child support based on the difference between his income and yours - and yes, if 50:50 custody was arranged, then he would not owe child support. But since he's not even in the same country right now, he obviously can't have 50% custody. In our country, adolescents the ages of yours would also have a say in which parent they wanted to live with.

As for spousal support - if he makes significantly more than you do, shouldn't he owe you spousal support as well? This helps to make up for the difference in income between a parent (him) who was able to pursue their career to the fullest extent, and a parent who worked less, got fewer promotions, or pursued a less lucrative career in order to run the household and care for the children. If your incomes are similar, then this would not be an option.

I'd run all such discussions through your attorney. Walkaway fathers are almost always perturbed that they actually have to pay for the privilege of nearly abandoning their family.

Be prepared, though - if he would make much less money in your current country, he might try to come home and work there just so his income looks worse so that he can then get a divorce decree that orders him to pay less. Don't fall for any of the manipulation, let your attorney handle these things. Even if you are doing mediation, you may need your own private attorney to handle communications and look after your interests.

Eagle3 #2924864 10/13/21 01:02 AM
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Hello Eagle

Yep, H is reacting. You can clearly see the attempt at manipulation. Do not take the bait.

Talk to a lawyer. Talk to a couple of lawyers. Then hire the one you are most comfortable with and let them handle the matter.

Divorce has only two key items: Children and money. Most of the time for emotionally troubled spouses it’s money then kids. My XW was a rare one, her push was freedom.

Anyhow, children and money gets split up in custody and asset separation.

Custody has two parts. The first component is the actual living arrangements and/or visiting arrangements. One week at one parent, the next week at the other. And so on. With Christmas and special holidays alternating years. That is just one example of an arrangement.

Living/visiting arrangements range from simple to cumbersome, depending upon lots of factors. The most contentious factor is the soon to be ex spouses not coming to a reasonable arrangement. That being said, do not back down or give up custody.

Custody starts at the default of 50/50. That assumes both parents live close to one another and the kids actually want to live with both parents. You see kids over the age of 12 usually get a say in where and who they live with. If I recall in your country the kids voice is not listened to in court. Still, a couple of 14 year old boys and one 17 year old boy will make Dad’s life h3ll if they do not want to be there. Regardless what the courts demand, your boys will get the last say - one way or another.

The main legal reason is H not living within a close distance to the boys’ home. However, it looks like he might be working to change that.

The second main thing regarding custody comes after the living arrangements. That is child support. The money paid from one spouse to the other for the care and upbringing of their offspring.

Anything other than the default 50/50 arrangement has some manner of financial compensation. Basically, the parent that is not looking after the kids for half of the time pays the other parent.

As I said, the default is 50/50. In that scenario neither of you would pay or receive child support for care and upbringing. The day to day life expenses like food and such would be covered during the kids time under each of your roofs.

Larger expenses like university, grad dresses, music lessons, and such - those joint-type expenses - usually get split according to percentage of each spouse’s salary.

This leads into alimony. And the start of the splitting of the marital assets.

Alimony is a financial compensation paid to the spouse who earns less than the other. This is based and reasoned upon what was once considered family/joint income. It is an attempt to maintain a close to similar lifestyle as before the divorce.

Alimony is not gender specific. If the woman earns more then she pays alimony. If the man earns more he does. If both earn equal there is no alimony.

Next up, joint accounts, which are split 50/50.

Then the major items: House(s), cottage(s), vehicles, boats, etc. Basically all split 50/50. This can be in the form of either spouse buying out the others share or selling the item and splitting the proceeds.

The last is debts. Again, split evenly. House mortgage is a pretty common one and usually gets paid out with the sale of the home and the extra money is then halved to each spouse.


Now, the finesse part. The negotiating part.

Everything, aside from a couple of legally binding items like child support, is negotiable. Any manner of arrangement can be made if both side agree to it. People can even waive their rights to property, accounts, home, custody, whatever. If you both sign the dotted line it becomes binding.

Caveat: The divorce still goes through the courts to ensure non-forced and willing participation and agreement to any negotiated settlement to protect both parties.

This negotiating area is where and how you achieve better than 50/50 custody for example. You’d say give up some savings or lessen the payable alimony for full custody. By the way, that’s just an example.

This is sad and difficult to realize that one parent/spouse is willing to sell their time with their children for cash. It’s a hash reality, that works in your favour.

Of course, that require finesse. You need to understand and realize what H is after.

He sounds like he is looking for more custody, so to only pay less child support. He will not likely come out and be that blunt. However, he probably will drop lots of clues as to what he is really after. By the way, it’s most likely money.

So, offer your one weekend every two weeks and some kind of cash. I found immediate cash payout is more desirable to the MLCer spouse than a deferred monetary consideration. If H goes along with the only one weekend idea or you get full custody, he can have such and such savings account. And the car. Or 20% off alimony or whatever.

As I said, just an example. The big picture is complicated. And yet simple. The house is a huge asset and a big bargaining chip. You have rights to half of it. If H wants the house, your signing it off has a significant value to it. And you understand and realize deferred value and custody value.

Please listen, do not go this alone. Get a lawyer! Listen to them.

Remember, H is irrational. What he feels is a good deal and what you think is a good deal are going to be different. Funny thing, sometimes, what H is wanting so desperately you actually don’t care about. And what he is willing to pay for what he so much desires is actually what you really want. Think kids and money.

My XW gave up, sold, her children, house, cars, dogs, yard, everything for a lump sum of quick cash. No alimony from me. I had full custody. She just wanted out. She was completely driven to it.

It hurt like h3ll to sign my divorce. I actually cried at the lawyer’s office. Such a one-sided deal. Such a lost and tormented soul W became. I place my DnJ upon the dotted line. I knew it was a good deal. It sure felt horrible though.

Some advice: Negotiate with your head not your heart.

Discover what H truly is after and what he is willing to pay for it. Might be pretty surprising.

How you do that. Listen. Just listen to H. Each of you will send, back and forth through your lawyers, offers of divorce. H most likely will side negotiate as well. You just listen and do not tip your hand. He will split the beans.

For right now, seek a lawyer. Tell the L the arrangement you and H had talked about a few days ago. L will probably have further ideas and items not thought about. (Oh my, you’d not believe how many rights and legal things are involved. My divorce is like 53 pages and it was basically everything to me for a bag of cash.)

Anyhow, I believe you were actually pretty ok with your arrangement. Have L draft a formal offer based upon those ok arrangements. Then send it to H’s lawyer. If he doesn’t have one, have your L contact H and ask for his legal counsel’s contact information. If H accepts the offer, well that’s that. Otherwise he will return an offer to you. And then you accept or reject. And so on and so on.

The big thing, stay out of his drama. Be business-like. Ignore his manipulation attempts. If H come with serious, polite, reasonable conversation, then sure listen. Otherwise, talk to my lawyer.

Just my two cents.

Well ok, more like six or eight cents. Lol

D


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
kml #2924865 10/13/21 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by kml
In the US, he would owe child support based on the difference between his income and yours - and yes, if 50:50 custody was arranged, then he would not owe child support.
Not necessarily true. In many states, including mine, even in 50/50 arrangements the "more monied spouse" pays child support. That's how my ExW had an affair, divorced me, and still gets monthly checks from me even though I watch the kids at least as much and usually more than her. What a system. In your case though it's your H who's the bad actor and makes more so depending on where you live you'd get child support even if you eventually go 50/50...consult a L on this!!!


Me:39 Ex-W:37
M:7 T: 9
S:6 D:3
BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20
OM1 affair ends: May '20
W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20
W files for D: Jul20
OM2 confirmed: 9/2020
Divorced: May '21
Eagle3 #2924867 10/13/21 01:16 AM
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D- she's not in your country or mine, I don't think, so divorce laws may be a bit different where she is.

But it seems we all agree that you need a lawyer and don't negotiate this directly with him - he's just trying to figure out how to cheat you out of your fair financial share, and/or how to drag this out so he can keep you as Plan B and avoid dealing with the consequences of his infidelity.

Eagle3 #2924868 10/13/21 01:32 AM
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Yes, Eagle is not in US nor Canada.

Always check and ensure the various laws of whatever locale you are divorcing in.


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
Eagle3 #2924877 10/13/21 07:27 AM
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Thank you kml, DnJ and BL42 for your clarification.

My message may not have been clear enough, hence some additional information.

And yes, I mixed the term child support and alimony, my mistake.

Alimony: Where I live, if both partners work, then no alimony is paid by default. Each is self-supporting, even if one person earns more than the other. So I can't take this into account.

Custody and child support: By default, the country where I live says week/week. Child support is calculated according to the number of days the children are with the partners and according to the remuneration of the partners. A handy tool calculates this very correctly and this counts by law.

The financial accounts have all been divided already, no discussion here either.

The house is not up for discussion, here too we have an agreement, it is 50/50. If, of course, he can't buy, then a sale will follow, but then we'll see where we end up but yet again, it remains 50/50.
the furniture is also arranged

Where I live, you try to arrange everything as much as possible by mutual consent.
As soon as lawyers are openly involved, it becomes a long process.
I want to avoid this for the children, because then they will temporarily have to follow the normal procedure and this means 50/50 custody, until everything is arranged. The children are of course heard, but this is only when the trial is in progress and the arrangement remains valid until a verdict has been made. Since there is a risk that he will return for that alone, I would rather not go down this road for the time being.

This does not alter the fact that it is very important to know what I am entitled to. I'm pretty sure of this, but I've made an appointment with an expert on the subject this afternoon. This is me asking for advice, H doesn't know about this.

Like I said, H is hitting wildly but this doesn't affect me at all, it strangly makes me stronger as it is sometimes easier to maitain my focus when he is irrational. Can't explain why.
I know what I want for me and the kids.

An example to show how difficult it is for him:

H yesterday: So I presume you will make the necessary arrangements in line with my comments?

Me Today: Good morning, answer will follow shortly.

H: OK. So this seems we are going towards a battle. You may expect an equal position in regards to communication. It's a pitty you turn 180 degrees in a few days but whatever. Please add to the document that you are not welcome anymore to gatherings with my family (in two weeks there is a party his family organizes and where they invited me)

Me: do you read any negativity in what I sent? I'm sorry you feel this way, but I don't mean anything by this, just that an answer is yet to come. And if that's what you want, then I'll respect your decision and don't attend the family gatherings anymore. This is not something that can/should be included in the document.

Of course no response was received.

I will initially wait and see what the expert has to say and then formulate an answer to him.

If we get stuck then I know I will have to take another course. I'm prepared for that. What he underestimates is the fact that there's one thing he really can't manipulate me with and that's my kids.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
Eagle3 #2924881 10/13/21 11:57 AM
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Good Morning Eagle

Well done with not answering H until you are ready. Especially when it’s in writing.

It looks like most assets are divided and agreed 50/50. Just custody and then the calculated child support to agree upon.

Are you ok with the default week/week custody? I’m inquiring about you, not kids yet.

Now, are the kids ok with week/week custody? From what you’ve said it looks like there is a resistance to this from them.

This is the part of divorce that most affects the kids and yet they get little “legal” say in how it all goes down. Of course, this is a difficult problem to resolve and the laws and courts do the best they can in the interest of the wellbeing of the children.

As long as they’re safe and provided for is the needed criteria for a default legal agreement. If neither party wishes to yield, or has cause to be removed, there is not much one can forceable do.

Once you’ve spoken to an expert you’ll know what is possible going forward. And you’ll know your position.

There is always a possible of negotiating with H. Right now he is flailing. Let him settle a bit. Keep listening and see what he is after.

D


Feelings are fleeting.
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DnJ #2924943 10/14/21 01:31 AM
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Eagle3,

I don't know your country obviously, but the important thing is you fully understand the law and your rights. Based on your response it sounds like you know your stuff, so that's good.

Still seems like even if you and H are not engaging L's to formally negotiate you'd still want to run anything by an L in the background to ensure you're covered (just don't tell H).

Originally Posted by DnJ
Are you ok with the default week/week custody? I’m inquiring about you, not kids yet.

Now, are the kids ok with week/week custody? From what you’ve said it looks like there is a resistance to this from them.

This is the part of divorce that most affects the kids and yet they get little “legal” say in how it all goes down. Of course, this is a difficult problem to resolve and the laws and courts do the best they can in the interest of the wellbeing of the children.

I agree w/DnJ's questions about custody. What's the current arrangement, and what are you thinking there?


Me:39 Ex-W:37
M:7 T: 9
S:6 D:3
BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20
OM1 affair ends: May '20
W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20
W files for D: Jul20
OM2 confirmed: 9/2020
Divorced: May '21
Eagle3 #2924947 10/14/21 03:52 AM
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Hi dear Eagle,

I am so sorry that this is the path being chosen right now. You sound like you have a lot of information and you know what you want. I have faith in you. However, this little interaction brought out some strong feelings for me, probably because I have heard almost the exact same words myself:

Originally Posted by Eagle3
An example to show how difficult it is for him:

H yesterday: So I presume you will make the necessary arrangements in line with my comments?

Me Today: Good morning, answer will follow shortly.

H: OK. So this seems we are going towards a battle. You may expect an equal position in regards to communication. It's a pitty you turn 180 degrees in a few days but whatever. Please add to the document that you are not welcome anymore to gatherings with my family (in two weeks there is a party his family organizes and where they invited me)

Me: do you read any negativity in what I sent? I'm sorry you feel this way, but I don't mean anything by this, just that an answer is yet to come. And if that's what you want, then I'll respect your decision and don't attend the family gatherings anymore. This is not something that can/should be included in the document.

This would be the exact sort of response I would get (and still get) from my H.

This whole process has been one big eye-opening experience to the depth of my H's insecurities and how those insecurities have wrecked our relationship and are currently making this whole divorce process 100X more challenging than it should be.

I would have responded just like you did. But I am learning now that I was 'rewarding' him with a caring, 'oh, let me just explain my good self to you!' response. I am slooooowly learning that the best response is silence.

After you said 'Good morning, answer will follow shortly' you should have not said one more word until you had said answer. He is baiting you. He knows that you care about his sensitivity and his mental health. That if he shows those sides to you, not only will you jump, but you'll ask him 'how high?'

I am preaching to you as if I am a master myself, but in reality I am struggling with this exact thing in this very moment. Perhaps that is why I see it so clearly.

Sending hugs, keep us updated.

Sage xx

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Originally Posted by DnJ
Are you ok with the default week/week custody? I’m inquiring about you, not kids yet.

Now, are the kids ok with week/week custody? From what you’ve said it looks like there is a resistance to this from them.D

Hi DnJ, BL42,

Thank you for your feedback. Well, the answers are pretty clear...

1/ No, I'm not OK with the default week/week custody.
2/ No, the children are not OK with week/week custody.

Current arrangements are full custody for me, in the document I have proposed every 2 weeks 1 weekend to start with. Kids are OK with that.

After my talk with the expert it became even more clear as to why I really have to try to solve this without going to court. The moment L's are openly involved the judge always gives 50/50 custody to both parents, since the law states that children need to have contact with both parents as much as possible, unless you have proof of psychical abuse, etc. which is of course not the case.

So they would hear the children but this would take some time and until there is a statement they would have to go with the week/week rule.

This is something he can use against me, although he is not aware today.
I however have also something I can use against him and that is money.
H is making a lot of money and would have to pay more child support as to what he is paying today, which is a good thing for me because money is the most important thing in the world right now for him.

This is also what I used, in a more hidden way, in my feedback on his comments in the document.
Awaiting reply currently.

Hi Sage,

Originally Posted by Sage
After you said 'Good morning, answer will follow shortly' you should have not said one more word until you had said answer. He is baiting you. He knows that you care about his sensitivity and his mental health. That if he shows those sides to you, not only will you jump, but you'll ask him 'how high?'
I am preaching to you as if I am a master myself, but in reality I am struggling with this exact thing in this very moment. Perhaps that is why I see it so clearly.S

Sorry, can you explain the first sentence? What did you mean with 'you should have not said one more word until you had said answer'.

I'm so glad you told me this because I'm struggling very hard with this. I sometimes wonder why I still react on such messages but I guess this is my nature, and you are correct in saying that I care about his sensitivity and his mental health and he knows it for sure.

I'm also afraid of what the reaction will be if I don't answer. This seems so harsh, not answering to someones message, even if the only thing they do is manipulating the situation.

If you are in this situation, what do you do?

I also have another inquiry.
Next week my in-laws have a family party where I'm invited to, and H as well.
They really want me to be there but in all honesty I think I will not attend since I don't feel like being in one room with H anymore if I don't have to. How do you all deal with such things?


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
Eagle3 #2924957 10/14/21 02:08 PM
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I’d skip the family party for now since he’s going to be there.

As to replying in the child support - how about something like:

“I’ve spoken with the kids and their preference is for the every other weekend visitation at present. They need stability in their lives right now - this has really affected them too. Please don’t make it more difficult on them than it already is. “

Eagle3 #2924962 10/14/21 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Eagle3
Sorry, can you explain the first sentence? What did you mean with 'you should have not said one more word until you had said answer'.

That was a confusing play on words. What I meant was that you do not owe him anything more than what you told him: ‘I’ll get back to you with an answer.’ And you don’t have to respond again until you have the answer.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I'm so glad you told me this because I'm struggling very hard with this. I sometimes wonder why I still react on such messages but I guess this is my nature, and you are correct in saying that I care about his sensitivity and his mental health and he knows it for sure.

I'm also afraid of what the reaction will be if I don't answer. This seems so harsh, not answering to someones message, even if the only thing they do is manipulating the situation.

Boundaries are really hard for lots of people, but especially empathetic people. But in the end, clear boundaries really are the kindest thing you can do. Boundaries protect you AND they give autonomy back to the other person. Because when we approach a situation like this without boundaries, we are effectively telling the other person ‘you can’t figure this out on your own because you are (too mentally unstable, sensitive etc). I am the healthier of the two of us so let me fix/caretake/mend you’. Of course that is not our conscious intention, but that is the message we are sending.

Assume H is normal and can handle it. It’s not impolite to ignore a message that is full of blame and shame. You don’t owe him an explanation or have to engage in a discussion where the only way out is for you to defend yourself.

Eagle3 #2925053 10/15/21 01:30 AM
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Hello Eagle

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Next week my in-laws have a family party where I'm invited to, and H as well.
They really want me to be there but in all honesty I think I will not attend since I don't feel like being in one room with H anymore if I don't have to. How do you all deal with such things?

It’s easy. You don’t want to go, so don’t go.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
1/ No, I'm not OK with the default week/week custody.
2/ No, the children are not OK with week/week custody.

Good. You know where you and the kids stand.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Current arrangements are full custody for me, in the document I have proposed every 2 weeks 1 weekend to start with. Kids are OK with that.

Why the change to the current arrangement? Maybe leave out proposals and stick with current, have been going on for a while, precedent setting, full custody, arrangements that have been working out just fine. No need to put more ideas in his head.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
After my talk with the expert it became even more clear as to why I really have to try to solve this without going to court. The moment L's are openly involved the judge always gives 50/50 custody to both parents, since the law states that children need to have contact with both parents as much as possible, unless you have proof of psychical abuse, etc. which is of course not the case.

So they would hear the children but this would take some time and until there is a statement they would have to go with the week/week rule.

Yes, I recalled you mentioning this previously.

Going to court is not what you nor the kids wish to do.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
This is something he can use against me, although he is not aware today.
I however have also something I can use against him and that is money.
H is making a lot of money and would have to pay more child support as to what he is paying today, which is a good thing for me because money is the most important thing in the world right now for him.

Yes, your desire for custody is something that can be use against you.

I offer a re-wording change which will made a world of difference in your efforts to achieve your goals:

I however have also something I can use against him and that is money.

I do realize H is enchanted by money, more than custody.

You do not want this to end up in a fight and going to the courts. You cannot “win” in a head to head battle. H is irrational and will not give in to reason, he needs to feel he won. This is key when resolving an issue with an irrational person - their feelings must be assuaged.

I have some advice, which comes straight out of my playbook. I had success, for whatever that’s worth. smile

Do note: This is not against our spouse. Rather, finding a resolution giving their irrational pressures.

First up, you and the kids. You need to get ok with week/week. H might take this to that end and you and the kids need to be ok with it. That doesn’t mean you desire it, just that you can live with it and accept it and it is not forever. (Obviously you will fight negotiate for a different result.)

You and kids need to discuss this possible outcome. As my S20 told you, kids are part of the divorce. And they often have no information or voice in what is going on. So talk to them.

I told my children everything. Of course, I was lucky in that W blew the whole world apart and dragged everyone and everything in to “our” separation/divorce. That was such a blessing.

Information is power. Make your children powerful! Explain and answer questions about divorce, the process, etc. Dispel their fears and unknowns about this hidden and not talked about subject.

Second, and this is a bit weasel-like and borders close to weaponizing the children, so be careful and keep your intentions and attention to the rational task at hand.

Informed children with an understanding of the “new” life they are facing, with the possibility of having to live at Dad’s half of the time, can and will speak out. They are your kids, and gentle guidance and encouragement to let Dad know their wishes for their desired living arrangements is a good idea. Three boys texting and telling Dad what they want and how much they don’t want his plan will need to be addressed and listen too. If not, it will be H’s undoing.

My four kids clearly told Mom what they thought for her boinking OM. Of course, she opened that morality backlash door when she flaunted her first love making session which happened just before she came over to pick up more stuff. Kids have things to say, and unfortunately that usually gets stifled which has a detrimental affect upon them.

My children expressed their anger and outrage. True, at first, it was pointed incorrectly at me. They could not risk losing their Mom. However, in time, they discovered the truth - they already did. Mom was consumed and replaced by XW who stood in her place.

This is not demonizing H, nor attacking, nor using against him. It is promoting understanding for your children and encouraging them to speak their desires. All before this gets dragged to court.

This will alleviate your fears regarding going to court and ending up week/week. This will also alleviate kids fears too. The loss of fear is a powerful ally. With that particular button removed, H will have lost much of his perceived power over you. And that, first and second, changes the situation which alters the probability of this ever getting to court and ending up week/week. Funny thing, once we lose our fear of something, it seldom occurs.

Third, and basically ongoing, is the kids feedback to Dad. Once they feel secure and can speak up. Oh boy. Like I said, it will be H’s undoing if he ignores it.

The other/next part is negotiating with H. This happens while all the above things/growth are happening as well. It just ramps up the irrational pressure on H. So something to recognize and utilize accordingly. Again, not weasel-like, just finding resolution of a difficult and unwanted situation.

First and foremost for you, is realizing one of your most powerful weapons. Time.

You do not need to get divorced in a week. Or a month. Or a year. H is probably a bit desperate to get the deed done. You need not be. And if you are, tell yourself differently!

When, not if, when H will not come around or sees things too irrational, just wait it out. Let his offer languish in limbo. Let it expire non-responded to if it is too much a not fair/wanted offer.

You believe H desires money. Knowing your opponent’s desire is a good thing.

The only item really left to address is custody. You want full custody. H wants money. You can probably see a plan here. Remember, H needs to feel he won. Negotiating with an irrational person has a higher success rate when the irrational person feels/believes the resolution was their idea.

I want to interject another thing regarding children and divorce. As mentioned, most children get little to no voice. They get no information. And the biggest event that most children feel was the most damaging and detrimental to them - the loss of their family home.

They are ripped from everything they’ve know. Their bedroom. Their security. All sold out from under them.

Obviously, there are many mitigation factors and one person many not be able to swing what two were once paying for. Or there would be just too much emotional pain.There is also the ghosts of our previous life. Can you find peace? Or will the ghosts haunt? And so on.

This is, I believe, another reason my kids are where they are. I still have the family home. They still have the family home. They can walk and visit where they grew up.

If you can swing the mortgage on your income alone. If you can live with the ghosts. If you and the kids like and want the house. And that is probably the biggest question, do you want to live there? If yes, I have a suggestion.

Finesse the following idea, so H runs with it and he feels it is his.

You’ll take the kids full time. You’ll keep the house. H’s future childcare payments equate to his portion of the house. You’ll take over the house and the mortgage. H saves all those house payments, and child support payments. He makes money. You get kids and house.

You might have to add an extra lump sum payment to sweeten the pot. If H shows any interest to something like this, be cool, and let him get his offer written. Have an expert/L look it over, then sign it.

Although there are a few differences, that is basically how my separation, negotiation, and divorce played out. XW had an irrational desire to be out of the marriage and free of kids and responsibility. If H has similar pressure, and with everything else already sorted out, it may not require too much to get his name upon the dotted line.

One final thing - for today smile . Do not sign anything until you consult a lawyer. Always!

D


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What has happened in the last 2 weeks defies all imagination. Life with an MLC'er is so "dynamic". It never seems to stop.

I have certainly kept all your feedback in mind and started working on it. Upon your advice, I finally contacted a lawyer and had a first appointment.
Conclusion is that my case is incredibly strong so I don't have to worry about the kids.

This does not alter the fact that I still want to try to arrange everything between us as much as possible, but in case this does not work out I still have a solid back-up plan.

The children are aware of the fact that we are now effectively getting a divorce, I also confirmed to them that OW2 is a fact, they have asked me about this a number of times and I have been open and honest.
They are relieved. They are more than tired of the situation and apparently want to distance themselves from him already for a long time, but they didn't do this for me.
H feels this strongly and accuses me of manipulating them.
This is of course not the case. I just made up my mind not to come between them anymore and to stop pushing them to contact him. They are now completely free to do whatever they want.
Until recently, I always asked them myself to send a message or contact him, or to tell them to reply to his messages. I don't do this anymore. I told H this as well.
He is the one responsible for the connection with his children, not me.

H is monster again and his cycling is now constant. He can change his mind in 10 minutes.
I suppose the reason for this is the impending divorce.
I keep going and don't back down. He clearly noticed that.
I can also keep myself incredibly calm, I didn't think I could do this.

After several discussions about the child support, he finally agreed to my proposal. For the time being we kept the arrangement on 1 weekend on 2, this as from 01/01/2022 but according to the lawyer they do not have to do this if it still does not work and given their age they can therefore decide for themselves. The only thing that could happen is that H demands through a lawyer that they come anyway, children are then heard but with the testimonials they can give, the judge will think in the best interest of the children and is it so that they almost always follow their opinion.

He has been coming to the house 3 times this week on 1 morning. 1 time to say that he wants week/week and that he will go to a lawyer. 10 min. later he was back there to say that he agreed with 1 weekend out of 2 and with the child support, 3rd time to pick up something. 3 times monster behavior. In the afternoon I received a message with
"sorry for today, I just can't put into words what goes on inside me and I struggle with the children and their actions towards me. I don't wish you anything bad or wrong, on the contrary, only the best. That's why I think it's a shame that you think you can't be there on Saturday (= the party I mentioned you about), it's sad for the children and the parents."

I replied briefly that I know and understand him and that I am not coming to the party because I can't do this now, that I need time and space for myself right now.

Gave myself a wellness day tomorrow. smile

Draft has now been drawn up and is at the notary, only the house is not yet finalised. He has until 15/11 to decide, otherwise it will be put up for sale.
Now try to sign as quickly as possible, hopefully the notary will put some speed behind it.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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Good Morning Eagle

What a wonderful post. I’m so glad you consulted a lawyer. I can see the fear and doubt melting away from here. Knowledge is power. And you look empowered!

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Conclusion is that my case is incredibly strong so I don't have to worry about the kids.

Very good news.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
The children are aware of the fact that we are now effectively getting a divorce, I also confirmed to them that OW2 is a fact, they have asked me about this a number of times and I have been open and honest.

They are relieved. They are more than tired of the situation and apparently want to distance themselves from him already for a long time, but they didn't do this for me.

Yes, children need to get out of the limbo state they fall into. Age appropriate information and knowledge propels them along their path. So wonderful to hear they feel relieved.

And yes, children will behave a certain way for us. Trying to alleviate the situation and our pain. They get stuck in a denial and bargaining like stage of their grief. They become unable to express it out of fear and respect and love and not wanting to make things worse and so on. Good open honest communication let them open their floodgates and let go.

Nice job, stepping out from in between H and the kids. Your job is not to facilitate their relationship. Your job is not to destroy it.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
H is monster again and his cycling is now constant. He can change his mind in 10 minutes.

I suppose the reason for this is the impending divorce.

It’s amazing how quickly they can completely alter their emotional state. Staggering to witness.

The impending divorce is become a reality for him (and you). For until now, it’s only been H’s fantasy idea. He’s dragged his feet. Reality is hitting him, and of course he will run from his emotions.

Stay your course. And continue to utilize H’s emotional state to negotiate and gain his signature upon the dotted line.

You have to utilize his emotions. You cannot reach his rational intellect. He cannot reach it either - for any significant duration to be useful.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I can also keep myself incredibly calm, I didn't think I could do this.

Well done!

There is so much good written in that statement.

“I can” is exactly correct. You can. It’s a choice. And therefore completely within your control and power. And that is the best place for that influence and power to reside.

And acknowledging that you didn’t think you could, allows you change it and believe in the fact you can.

Equanimity is a pretty wonderful state. And it is not some magically born to it only for a select few folks. Anyone can find it if the choose to.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
”sorry for today, I just can't put into words what goes on inside me and I struggle with the children and their actions towards me. I don't wish you anything bad or wrong, on the contrary, only the best. That's why I think it's a shame that you think you can't be there on Saturday (= the party I mentioned you about), it's sad for the children and the parents."

Stay the course Eagle. Do not fall for his manipulation.

H doesn’t understand nor empathize with what is best for the kids. And he really cannot feel anyone else’s sadness - the children and the parents - for not being able to go to the party. That is his feelings showing. Him projecting his feelings on to others. He is sad and frustrated and embarrassed and guilty and such. And it will be seen and out in the open when he cannot present the “nice” family facade that he has been hiding behind.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
After several discussions about the child support, he finally agreed to my proposal.

Excellent.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Draft has now been drawn up and is at the notary, only the house is not yet finalised. He has until 15/11 to decide, otherwise it will be put up for sale.

Now try to sign as quickly as possible, hopefully the notary will put some speed behind it.

Hoping this goes quickly and smoothly.


Eagle, a very nice update. You and the kids are doing really good. So proud of how you’ve handle yourself. Class and Grace my friend. Loads of respect.

Have a great day.

D


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Such beautiful words DnJ.
This really means a lot to me.

Thanks again for always being there at the right time
and sharing your knowledge/advice when I need it.

I will get there, I know I will.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
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09/23-possible back with OW2
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Just had a call with my best friend. She told me H came by their house last night for dinner.
He asked this week if they could meet.

The four of us have been best friends since a very long time. H didn’t have any contact with them anymore, only if I went he once came as well a couple of months ago.

He didn’t talk about the D, only that he would like to buy in the house, nothing more.

She said it was a nice evening, she said he behaved like he was before all this happened.

I feel strange. Why is he reaching out now?, didn’t tell me anything although I saw him yesterday since we had a meeting in regards to S14’s at school.

Last edited by Eagle3; 10/23/21 10:38 AM.

Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
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09/23-possible back with OW2
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This afternoon H is coming to the house to see the kids and to talk. The kids want this themselves. They want to explain why they have difficulties with him. H is aware. They are very nervous but they want to do this since they ate fed up with the current relationship they have with their F.

I won’t be there. Hope all will be going well.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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Good Morning Eagle

Why is H reaching out? Simply because he feels like it.

Whatever specific pressures are triggering his emotions and his need to assuage them is difficult to say. You know how quickly he can and does change emotional states.

The obvious significant pressure is the pending divorce and the collapse of his fantasy narrative. Pretty telling when he only said he wants to purchase the house and nothing about the rest of the divorce.

Compartmentalization, yikes look at all the letters. Errr. Umm.

Compartmentalization is utilized a lot by those within turmoil. It’s a strategy and method of living two or more lives within one. Far beyond just focusing upon other things for a while. This is a complete shift of themselves. They can have entirely different values, thoughts, feelings, and goals. Sounds rather familiar I bet, given your knowledge and witness of H’s actions.

MLC explodes as that compartmentalizing fails to hold things in balance. Then they run. As they tire they return to their previous compartmented life. Then run again. Such a cycle. Explains why H appeared just like before all this happened. For at that time he was.

A few eventually find an awakening. A true dropping of their internal walls and seeing their lives as they are. Note: Seeing their lives - plural - and consolidating them into one. Quite a difficult thing to realize and the accomplish for a troubled soul.

Heap on top of all that, the guilt, shame, regret, pride, ego, failure, etc., and it is little wonder H is less than open about his upcoming comeuppance. Less open to your friends, and less open to himself. Still, you walk the kind and compassionate path and do what needs to be done.

There is a time when the kids will face their parent(s). Teenagers rebel. In Dad’s case, it is going to be multiplied in difficulty for him. The kids do need to clear the air and get things out in the open. And that’s going to take more than just one afternoon.

I suspect the kids will have much to report to you. Most likely they will feel they were rather harsh. What child doesn’t feel bad for speaking back to their parent. Assure them they did fine. Listen and gently guide them to realize Dad’s decisions and choices are his. Help them understand and find acceptance and forgiveness.

It is healthy when the child stands up to the shenanigans. It is most healthy when they do it compassionately. You are a good role model. They will be fine.

D


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Who knows why he met with those friends? Maybe he's buttering them up to ask them for financial help with buying the house? Maybe he's trying to re-establish contact to prepare them for introducing OW2? You'll probably never know and it's no longer really your issue to read his mind.

Hope things go well for your kids speaking with him. Be prepared for H to have turned the narrative into all the things wrong with you.

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Originally Posted by DnJ
A few eventually find an awakening. A true dropping of their internal walls and seeing their lives as they are. Note: Seeing their lives - plural - and consolidating them into one. Quite a difficult thing to realize and the accomplish for a troubled soul.

Heap on top of all that, the guilt, shame, regret, pride, ego, failure, etc., and it is little wonder H is less than open about his upcoming comeuppance. Less open to your friends, and less open to himself. Still, you walk the kind and compassionate path and do what needs to be done.D

Staying on course but want to share what happened yesterday and today.

DnJ, unbelievable, but what you said above is exactly what happened. The question is how long his "awakening" will last, but it is clear that the impending divorce and the fear of losing his children played a major role in this.

The children talked openly with H yesterday. They told him everything, and also used very harsh words as you predicted. They have poured out their hearts for half an hour to 45 minutes about what has happened in recent years and how difficult it all is for them. S14 even said that he is thinking of cutting off contact completely. H has listened, remained calm at all times, validated what they said and in the end he aknowledged he has been a completely different person and that he has destroyed the whole family with his actions.

This morning H called me. He asked if the children had said anything about the conversation. I told him honestly that we talked about it yesterday evening, that they were very happy they did this and also happy with his response and reactions toward them. And indeed, like my BFF said, there was the old H again. Talked about everything that happened to him for the last 3 years for at least half an hour. He said he had turned 180 degrees, that he had become a completely different person, someone he never really wanted to be. Also told me he went to see his mother last night and talked openly about the fact that she's never been a mother and that he's really struggling with himself as a result. She has of course denied it, but he has said that he has no resentment towards her, that the facts are what they are and that this cannot be reversed anymore.

He also apologized for how he's treated me over the past few years, that his monstrous behavior is because he gets stuck, feels he is losing control and then reacts like a little kid who doesn't get his way and that he don't know why he is still doing this.

Not a word about our M, of course I also intend to continue with what has now been set in motion, since we all know he can turn again in a few hours.

He did say he is having a very hard time because he fears that what he has done in recent years can never be made up for. He fears this will haunt him his whole life and that everyone will look at him differently. Said that is why he has struggled for a long time because he felt like he could never solve this anymore. I told him that what happened can't be reversed, but that it shows a lot of strength to work on this, aknowledge what happened and move forward in the right direction.

This afternoon he sent a message to the children that he will do everything in his power to become the father/person he used to be.

@kml,
I am aware of the fact that he can flip again in a few hours, but when this happens I simply listen to him and validate, can't turn my back yet on him.

Hope I handled it well!

Have a nice Sunday.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
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He’s had a lot of words but no action. It’s fine to be kind to him but until you see any action that actually shows a sincere desire to reconcile, keep on your path.

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Good Morning Eagle

The boys’ conversation with Dad sounds like it went well. Truthfully letting out what was on their minds and in their hearts.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
H has listened, remained calm at all times, validated what they said and in the end he aknowledged he has been a completely different person and that he has destroyed the whole family with his actions.

MLCers see with clarity for a bit then return to the foggy dark.

What H has said is completely true. That in itself is a rare moment.

Dad’s open admission of his inner turmoil is an excellent opportunity for the kids’ emotional and mental welfare.

Follow up with the boys. Validate and assure them that Dad actual is a somewhat different person. That past unrealized trauma(s) have risen and will no longer be ignored.

The boys have seen Dad’s duality. The two (or more) different personalities / emotional states living within him. They know it. Now, it’s time to believe it.

There is a difference between knowing and believing. When children, teens, young adults, and fully grown adults actually believe - the whole situation changes. Some of the several things that happen. One looses that self doubt, even though it’s right before your eyes, its unbelievable. Kindness and compassion flourishes. The biggest one by far - they believe in themselves!

I’ve lived this. I explained and confirmed the evidence that is before my kids’ eyes. Yes, Mom is mostly an snarky 18 year old version of herself, can be her 13 year old self, and when pressured even further a small girl of around 7 emerges. And somewhere lost within that maze of pain and emotional troubles is Mom/J.

J is trapped underneath the weight of past trauma(s) and previous unreconciled personalities. In short, she has to grow up from these times / versions of herself.

Your boys will do fine with such knowledge and awareness. With such a belief.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
S14 even said that he is thinking of cutting off contact completely.

My youngest son basically doesn’t see Mom. S20 last saw her last Christmas for 30 seconds.

Ensure S14 has the right information so to make the right decision for himself. That’s goes for all the boys.

Knowledge and awareness will lead to compassion and understanding. S14 may not see Dad, for reasons other than hurt feelings.

To my S20, his Mom is just a different person. A person he is not particularly fond of, nor respects. She is a stranger. A person who’s views and morals he would not invest his time is getting to know, if she weren’t his Mom. Therefore, why just because she is his Mom. I can’t fault his logic.

Acceptance and forgiveness doesn’t mean one condones the behaviour. We are just not holding on to a bill that needs payment. Paid in full. We are free. And in that freedom such compassionate decisions are possible. To kindly let go. To believe in one’s self.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Also told me he went to see his mother last night and talked openly about the fact that she's never been a mother and that he's really struggling with himself as a result. She has of course denied it, but he has said that he has no resentment towards her, that the facts are what they are and that this cannot be reversed anymore.

It’s so interesting that H conversed with his parent. Just like his kids did with him. My goodness, that is exactly what he needs to do. We are all someone’s kid. We all have/had parents. H has problems with his Mom. Part of his growling up is standing up to her. Just like his boys just did to him.

H’s future is certainly one of interest.

As of course, is your’s and your boys. Live and love your great lives!

Originally Posted by Eagle3
He did say he is having a very hard time because he fears that what he has done in recent years can never be made up for. He fears this will haunt him his whole life and that everyone will look at him differently. Said that is why he has struggled for a long time because he felt like he could never solve this anymore.

Let me come back to this in a second.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I told him that what happened can't be reversed, but that it shows a lot of strength to work on this, acknowledge what happened and move forward in the right direction.

It is pretty cool that H opened up to you. Expressed how he can’t solve this.

He isn’t looking for you to solve it for him either. Remember H is in crisis. He is not a rational LBS looking and listening to advice and suggestions. He is a man driven by his unrealized emotional pains and pressures. A man who is starting to realize them.

Validate more. Solve less.

That’s a difficult thing to do. To let someone find their answers with gentle prompting. H is a scared squirrel and will bolt with too much more pressure. He is accepting the self imposed emotional increase quite well actually; don’t add too much.

Everything you said is spot on. Just say it when it affirms a behaviour he is displaying.

For example: “acknowledge what happened and move forward in the right direction.” H acknowledges his “fears” not “what happened”. And moving forward in the right direction implies his current direction is wrong.

MLCers cannot be wrong. Until they decide they are. Their irrational and emotional brains cannot handle it. They’ve done so much bad to try to feel good - that’s a lot to accept.

That all being said, a few truth darts here and there sometimes helps. I’m sure your 30 minute conversation had plenty of discussion and this was warranted and correct. Just some general feedback is all.

So back to what H said.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
He did say he is having a very hard time because he fears that what he has done in recent years can never be made up for. He fears this will haunt him his whole life and that everyone will look at him differently. Said that is why he has struggled for a long time because he felt like he could never solve this anymore.

Acknowledge his fear.

H is in crisis. He wants his feelings acknowledge. And he is feeling fearful.

To me this reads as depression. You know, depression that follows running. The first part of awakening. This whole MLC thing is a glacier slow process. And it stops and starts and comes off the rails and goes back on and so on. Still, listen to what H said.

Fear. Him realizing his fears is quite a thing. A person running from fear doesn’t feel it as fully. And certainly doesn’t try to face it.

He also has another hallmark of depression. The idea of this will never change. The absolute and negative outlook of life. “He fears this will haunt him his whole life and that everyone will look at him differently.”

“…struggled for a long time because he felt like he could never solve this anymore.” Another interesting look into H. Solving is a rational thing. As in not emotionally driven. Attempting to rationalize his emotional state. The precursor to uncoupling the trigger and fear response.

And someone who actually felt like they cannot (instead of could never) solve this would simply see it as impossible. Plenty of progress showing through his words and small show of actions.

Still, words are words and H can change direction rather quickly.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
He also apologized for how he's treated me over the past few years, that his monstrous behavior is because he gets stuck, feels he is losing control and then reacts like a little kid who doesn't get his way and that he don't know why he is still doing this.

Gosh, to actually hear those words. What I give to have XW see.

Validate and acknowledge H. “Thank you for sharing that with me. It means a lot.”

(No solving, just validate. smile )

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Not a word about our M, of course I also intend to continue with what has now been set in motion, since we all know he can turn again in a few hours.

Of course, not a word about M. His path is about him. All of his talk is about him. How he hurt you. How he hurt the kids. How he fears. Not how you feel. Remember crisis. And a lack of empathy. He simply cannot - for his feelings are too consuming.

Continue with what has been set in motion.

Give H the time and space to catch up if/when he finds his way.

You and the kids live your great lives.

D


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Originally Posted by kml
He’s had a lot of words but no action. It’s fine to be kind to him but until you see any action that actually shows a sincere desire to reconcile, keep on your path.

Correct kml. That's the thing I constantly repeat to myself. I can see a clear change in his behavior compared to the past 2,5 years, but I haven't seen any sincere actions yet, simply an awareness, perhaps even a bit more, an aknowlegement, which is getting bigger and bigger now.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Follow up with the boys. Validate and assure them that Dad actual is a somewhat different person. That past unrealized trauma(s) have risen and will no longer be ignored.
The boys have seen Dad’s duality. The two (or more) different personalities / emotional states living within him. They know it. Now, it’s time to believe it.
Your boys will do fine with such knowledge and awareness. With such a belief.D

The boys know and believe it. The difference between your XW and my H is that H for a very long time was an in-house MLC'er, which means the children have seen his different personalities numerous times.

Originally Posted by DnJ
To my S20, his Mom is just a different person. A person he is not particularly fond of, nor respects. She is a stranger. A person who’s views and morals he would not invest his time is getting to know, if she weren’t his Mom. Therefore, why just because she is his Mom. I can’t fault his logic. D

TBH, I completely understand his way of thinking.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Validate more. Solve less.D

I struggle with finding the correct responses in regards to validation, and always say too much...

Originally Posted by DnJ
Still, words are words and H can change direction rather quickly.D

Yesterday, after his call, I sent a message to thank him for his openness, that I know this must not have been easy for him to do.

His reply was, isn't this the least I can do? Then 4 hours later the following message,

"I have to get through and I don't have a choice but to look into the eye of the storm."

I didn't sent a response anymore since I don't really understand what he meant with that, so I left it as it is.

An awakening that has lasted for 3 days already... that's the longest he's ever had.
All others lasted max. a few hours of 1 evening.

But I know I have to sail my course. I always find it harder to do so when I see improvement but this time I won't change it.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
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Update of the current situation, here we go.

H is still experiencing his awakening.
Seems to last already two weeks now.

It’s an annual tradition to always go on holiday this period with our best friends and the children. Everyone is really looking forward to this. We take long walks, enjoy good food and drinks, play board games, etc.
We just got back and really enjoyed it.
H was of course not there for 2 years in a row.

While we were there he called the kids again. He now openly talks to them about how he looks at them and shares his feelings, admits he was completely wrong, tells them how proud he is of them and of the people they have become etc. He even told S17 that he has a lot of remorse (first time he uses this word, normally it is always guilt!) for what he did to the family and that he completely destroyed everything.
He also said he missed being there with all of us.
S17 was very emotional after the call because he was so happy that his father finally opened up to him and also because he said he was proud of him. H never said this before.

There is clearly a change in him. He has a true awareness now. Behavior is very low profile, calm in his talking, polite and friendly. Drinking stopped completely.

I can't explain it but this is a very strange period. I didn't think this was possible anymore and that's why it's incredibly difficult to keep your cool now and just listen and validate and not ask too many questions.

He called this evening. Wanted to discuss some things with me.
He asked how the holiday was and if the children had talked about their phone call they had with him. I told honestly everything they told me. H told me it felt good to finally learn to be open with his kids. That he is in a learning process and if I could help him a bit with that. He also said that he was very aware now of the past years and again that he does not know how he will ever forgive himself for what he has done. He is also looking to temporarily rent something close to our current home so that the children can sleep with him when he is here. He also has permission from the bank to buy the house but he has to wait because he is still registered abroad, but if I already have a house in mind he will pay an advance to me.

I just keep going, I know that I can't deviate from my path now, and I will certainly succeed. But I can honestly say that I have a kind of hope again, hope that he is on his way back to being the old one and that there may be a new future for us together, although nothing seems to point in that direction. Why do I have this hope then?
He still talks as if the divorce is going through. I simply go with the flow now…

Eagle


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
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Hello Eagle

Lots of MLCers poke out of their tunnels during Christmas and other special holiday/family times. However, I think it’s a bit too early for upcoming Christmas to be swaying H as much as he is displaying. In my opinion, things have just gotten real for H.

Divorce, house purchasing, kids clearly stating their views, etc. H has finally felt the losses of all that he squandered - marriage, loving wife, loving sons, security, and so on.

H has said quite a bit, and his words are rather nice to hear. And he has even displayed some actions that support his words - calm behaviour, stopped drinking, calling the boys, etc. Hear the words, but listen to the actions. And only half of those. Consistent demonstrated behaviour. That’s the target.

H is making progress. No doubt about it. He may continue slowly along or he may backslide a bit. That’s near impossible to tell. Keep expectations really low. Hope is ok.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I can honestly say that I have a kind of hope again, hope that he is on his way back to being the old one and that there may be a new future for us together, although nothing seems to point in that direction. Why do I have this hope then?

You always had hope. It just was muffled for a while. It happens with indifference.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I didn't think this was possible anymore and that's why it's incredibly difficult to keep your cool now and just listen and validate and not ask too many questions.

It was always possible.

Now that you see it again, the possibilities expand and fill one up. Watch your expectations.

Now, more than ever before, do not ask too many questions!!!

You can clearly see the struggles he is grappling with. He talks about and shows remorse, a good step. He is still the timid scared squirrel. If/when he works his way through this emotional awakening, it will be 18-24 months before he is truly comfortable in his own skin.

Do keep your cool. Answers will come. Be patient. Let him lead the pace. He is mulling over a lot of stuff.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I just keep going, I know that I can't deviate from my path now, and I will certainly succeed.

Absolutely, you’ll succeed.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
He still talks as if the divorce is going through. I simply go with the flow now…

It usually takes a real loss for one to make a real change.

Keep moving forward my friend. Do what is best for you.

If (when) consistent demonstrated good behaviour happens, you can always reassess then. H has two weeks so far. That is encouraging. Let’s see if he can add two more weeks, and then make it two months. After all, anything is possible.

D


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Thank you DnJ for your consistent replying on my thread. You always seem to give me the advice I'm seeking for.
Originally Posted by DnJ
H is making progress. No doubt about it. He may continue slowly along or he may backslide a bit. That’s near impossible to tell. Keep expectations really low. Hope is ok.D
There is the backslide I guess. Consistent behavior for two weeks in a row but seems to lose it this weekend again. He is still friendly but his reactions are strange.

Although he knew the kids still had holiday he went abroad again last Wednesday, exactly on the day we came back from our holiday. He did not go to his home country but to the place where his new work challenge will be until next Wednesday. He doesn't have to be there during the weekend and it is very close to where we live, he could have stayed a few more days in the area for them but he didn't. It's like he is scared to face them. On Friday he is leaving again for his current home country so will only be here 1 day to spend the day with them.

Instead of being an actual dad he sent a message to say they could buy new (very expensive) sport shirts and he would pay for it.

He immediately transferred the money over to S17.

They of course accepted the gift but this is no positive education, this is buying them things out of guilt and even trying to buy their love, and I really don't like that. They also see through this but they are still children and who can blame them for accepting this gift.

Or do I need to see this as an improvement, an action of which he thinks is the right thing to do?

I’m simply afraid he will break their harts again. He told them he would become the dad he used to be in the past but I have serious doubts about it.

Last edited by Eagle3; 11/07/21 02:40 PM.

Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
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Good Morning Eagle

Yes H’s actions and reactions are going to be strange. He’s got a lot of guilt and shame to find acceptance with.

Most people approach healing / acceptance as a lot of grief/guilt/fear/pain/hurt/loss/whatever to overcome. In fact, it’s the opposite, one doesn’t overcome such things. Acceptance is making friends with it. Making friends with what has happen, and with what one did.

That is a strange road to walk. To make friends with one’s past. The dark and less than noble past that one lived. It’s pretty easy to see that such a path requires forgiving of self. And that, forgiving, seems to be a tenet that is not widely held in society.

Acceptance is the individual’s journey. For us LBS, our acceptance is us accepting and forgiving our situation and our actions and our spouse’s actions. Of the two, forgiving of self is much more difficult than forgiving others. Therefore and likewise for acceptance.

All of that forgiveness and acceptance is internal to us. The, at first, biggest stumbling block, turns out to be the easiest - forgiving our spouse’s actions. This has nothing to do with them at all! It is completely internal. Completely for us. It is the LBS accepting and forgiving something within ourselves, while not actually condoning their spouse’s behaviour.

That, comes from what we can control. We can control self and nothing more. When we forgive others, we are actually forgiving our reactions to that person and not the person themselves. Love the sinner, forgive the sin. Funny stuff, this internal landscape.

With that step of forgiveness realized - the accepting of others is actually about us - we can turn to ourselves. And at that point, one finds they have already began forgiving themselves. And it becomes even more apt - Love the sinner, forgive the sin.

Acceptance and forgiveness are tied, and make a strange journey. Looking back one’s path is always clearly visible. However, at the time, the path forward is very hard to see. H is in difficult water and has much to come to terms with.

You are correct, Dad is scared to see his kids. They were open and honest. And that forced H to be a bit open and honest with himself. Realize it’s not the kids his scared of, it’s himself.

Of course, that is me, from a viewpoint and perspective of having made friends with fear. The internal journey and all. smile H has a little ways to go until he sees that.

His leaving early so not to see the boys is an understandable reaction. It shows the build up of pressure within him. This is a better release of that pressure than some other possibilities.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Or do I need to see this as an improvement, an action of which he thinks is the right thing to do?

Your wording is apt. H more thinks than feels that this is the right thing to do. He made a choice to go early. And likewise reached out with gifts to the boys.

As for improvement:

The hurt and emotionally unwell will make hurt and emotionally unhealthy choices. It’s along the spectrum of emotional unhealthy to healthy which one can gauge healing. H is making better choices than before it seems.

For all of us, healing comes in small steps. Wee increments of betterment. Until one day we realize where we are. Happy, whole, and healthy.

H made a better choice. Not a great choice. A better choice.

Choice is better than being driven to. Even poor choice is better.

The most arduous journey is traversed in small steps.

Do you need to see this as improvement? From my perspective, yes. And remember, everything is for you and your welfare. So, yes.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I’m simply afraid he will break their hearts again. He told them he would become the dad he used to be in the past but I have serious doubts about it.

It’s reasonable to have doubts. In fact, let me dissuade those doubts. H will never become the Dad he used to be. He cannot. However, he can be better.

H can never be who he once was. He has done things which before did not exist. Therefore he can not go back.

This is the same for for any of us. We all have knowledge and experiences of events. We become different. Hopefully, better.

H’s wanting to be Dad again is hopeful. He will be a different Dad. He will not be the same. He will be a dismal shadow or he will become someone better. He will be defined and become based upon his choices.

You have the opportunity to pass on such wisdom to your boys. To explain such internal workings of emotion, irrational, forgiveness, and acceptance. To provide rational understanding to some of life’s most irrational and poorly understood or faced facets. To influence growth along the path of light.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Instead of being an actual dad he sent a message to say they could buy new (very expensive) sport shirts and he would pay for it.

He immediately transferred the money over to S17.

They of course accepted the gift but this is no positive education, this is buying them things out of guilt and even trying to buy their love, and I really don't like that. They also see through this but they are still children and who can blame them for accepting this gift.

You can make this a positive education. Anything in life can be positive education and growth.

It’s ok to accept the gift. It’s ok not to accept as well. How one reacts speaks to their internal perspective.

If there are strings attached to this money for sports shirts your boys will find out soon enough. Dad cannot buy their love. If he tries, that speaks to his internal perspective.

All of this is valuable understanding your boys can gain, and a step towards forgiveness / acceptance.

Start with letting go of “instead of being an actual Dad he sent a message…”, and use “He sent a message…”. H is their actual Dad. True, not the Dad they or you want. Or the one he should be. However, what can one control? Thoughts, actions, and reactions. And from that, one’s influence flows. If H/Dad is attempting to be better and make choices, he is open to influences. Live good, and let H/Dad choose his path.

That’s the general path and life I’ve advised and the influence I’ve passed on to my kids.

Have the boys send Dad a picture of them all wearing their new shirts. For unlike my XW, he is somewhat actively working towards being in their lives.

D


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Hi Eagle!

I’ve just read this topic from start to finish.

DNJ and other have given you some wonderful advice.

I’m excited that you’ve had the strength and conviction to end this marriage.

You talk about your husband’s small awakenings… but what I see through this thread is your slow awakening - to his manipulation, his selfishness, his mental health problems.

One thing I’ve noticed, is that although you seem to be committed to the cause of seeing this through, you do routinely seem to be buoyed when husband peeks out of the tunnel. It makes me wonder if deep down, you see this divorce as pushing him to a place where he admits it’s all his fault… and then you get back together.

Don’t get me wrong, you hear of stories like that from time to time. But it is exceedingly rare.

I think you should work on this. As you walk through this journey, you need to get to a place where the indifference is much stronger. Where your husband’s reactions or peeks out of the tunnel are unimportant, amusing or where you don’t even realise they are occurring because you’re so detached.

I think you’re doing a fine job walking the line between protecting yourself, but still allowing your husband to have a relationship with his kids into the future.

Quote
Yesterday, after his call, I sent a message to thank him for his openness, that I know this must not have been easy for him to do.

His reply was, isn't this the least I can do? Then 4 hours later the following message,

"I have to get through and I don't have a choice but to look into the eye of the storm."

I didn't sent a response anymore since I don't really understand what he meant with that, so I left it as it is.

I wouldn’t go initiating messages thanking him for anything. These conversations are him trying to feel less guilt about what he has done. That’s just not really your problem to solve. You can feel sorry for him and his regret/guilt, but it’s not your job any more to comfort him or praise him. I know this is hard, because as LBS we still feel strong urges to protect our spouse, but his grief is now his problem to deal with.

Your posts are largely focussed on your divorce, your husbands behaviour, what he may or may not be thinking and how he is reacting to conversations/messages/letters etc.

What about you? Part of healing is learning to focus on yourself. Spend less time everyday focussed on the crazy reactions and behaviour, and more time each day on yourself. How are you keeping busy? Do you have some hobbies? Are you keeping fit and eating well? Research has shown time and time again the best thing you can do for your own mental health is regular exercise.

We want to hear more about Eagle, and less about a crazy MLC’er.

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Thank you for your wise words DnJ.

Originally Posted by DnJ
You have the opportunity to pass on such wisdom to your boys. To explain such internal workings of emotion, irrational, forgiveness, and acceptance. To provide rational understanding to some of life’s most irrational and poorly understood or faced facets. To influence growth along the path of light.
That’s the general path and life I’ve advised and the influence I’ve passed on to my kids.D

And you did well. Although I don't always succeed yet I'm trying to give this wisdom to my children as well.


Originally Posted by Kind18
I’ve just read this topic from start to finish.

Dear Kind18,

Thank you very much for answering my thread. I can imagine if you read my story from start to finish you can clearly see through certain things, I won't anymore unfortunately since I'm playing the leading role grin

Much of your feedback is in a certain way correct, although let me explain some things in detail.

Originally Posted by Kind18
You talk about your husband’s small awakenings… but what I see through this thread is your slow awakening - to his manipulation, his selfishness, his mental health problems.

Yes, I have had several awakenings although it is a slow process.

Originally Posted by Kind18
One thing I’ve noticed, is that although you seem to be committed to the cause of seeing this through, you do routinely seem to be buoyed when husband peeks out of the tunnel. It makes me wonder if deep down, you see this divorce as pushing him to a place where he admits it’s all his fault… and then you get back together.
Don’t get me wrong, you hear of stories like that from time to time. But it is exceedingly rare.

I think you should work on this. As you walk through this journey, you need to get to a place where the indifference is much stronger. Where your husband’s reactions or peeks out of the tunnel are unimportant, amusing or where you don’t even realise they are occurring because you’re so detached.

I agree with you on this in a lot of ways. I'm well detached, I'm living my life, I think of him quite often but not that it has a huge influence on my current life, but I can't seem to get to the point where I'm indifferent towards his actions or behavior. I guess the biggest reason for that is because he has been a clinging boomerang for 2 years, and the last 6 months more of a boomerang.

Can you actually get to a place of indifference if you still have hope for reconcilliation, to my honest opinion I do not believe this is possible.

I do believe my current marriage is over, therefore I'm pushing through with divorce now. For a long time I wanted to but I didn't have the strength yet, and therefore I failed each time. This is not the case anymore.

Originally Posted by Kind18
I think you’re doing a fine job walking the line between protecting yourself, but still allowing your husband to have a relationship with his kids into the future.
This has always been my main goal.

Originally Posted by Kind18
Your posts are largely focussed on your divorce, your husbands behaviour, what he may or may not be thinking and how he is reacting to conversations/messages/letters etc.

What about you? Part of healing is learning to focus on yourself. Spend less time everyday focussed on the crazy reactions and behaviour, and more time each day on yourself. How are you keeping busy? Do you have some hobbies? Are you keeping fit and eating well? Research has shown time and time again the best thing you can do for your own mental health is regular exercise.

We want to hear more about Eagle, and less about a crazy MLC’er.
I had to laugh with this part but very kind of you to ask. I knew there would be a time somebody would ask me this.

I don't tell much about myself on this forum. This is not because I'm not looking after myself, but I really use this forum to help me and give me advice about the difficulties I'm facing with MLC in general but also simply to vent.
I have very close relatives and good good friends who have been aware of the story since the beginning. They can't help me with that (that's why I come here) but they do care about my wellbeing and always took care of me in the worst of times. Those times are over luckily.

But since you were so kind to ask I definitely owe you an answer :):

- Since I have 3 teenagers on a full time basis much time is spent with them and I love it. I have a great connection with all 3 of them. Many of my friends admire the way of how we interact with each other.

- I work out 3 times/week (power and HIIT trainings) since about a year now and once a week I go for a long walk with one of my friends.

- Once or twice a weekend I invite family or friends or I'm invited somewhere.

- Sleeping and eating was terrible the first year, the 2nd year this was completely gone. I don't have any problems anymore with either of them. Back to the way it was before BD (sleep is even better now)

- I have a great job whereby I can fully explore my qualities and I meet a lot of people.

- I'm planning to obtain an additional diploma as from next year, when the D is final and I'm settled in my new home.

- I love travelling so this is something I continue to do so, most of the times with my children, but sometimes also some me-time for a few days.

Therefore Kind18, I'm definitely there to live my life without him, I have done this for the past 30 months now but the indifference isn't coming as yet. Will it ever? I honestly don't know.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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Eagle3 Offline OP
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Wanted to add something more:

Originally Posted by Kind18
I think you should work on this. As you walk through this journey, you need to get to a place where the indifference is much stronger. Where your husband’s reactions or peeks out of the tunnel are unimportant, amusing or where you don’t even realise they are occurring because you’re so detached.

If you or anybody else can give me some advice on how to reach this stage, please do so. Definitely the part where you mention the word amusing intrigues me. It must be wonderful to get to this point.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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Hello Eagle

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Originally Posted by Kind18
I think you should work on this. As you walk through this journey, you need to get to a place where the indifference is much stronger. Where your husband’s reactions or peeks out of the tunnel are unimportant, amusing or where you don’t even realise they are occurring because you’re so detached.

If you or anybody else can give me some advice on how to reach this stage, please do so. Definitely the part where you mention the word amusing intrigues me. It must be wonderful to get to this point.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I'm well detached, I'm living my life, I think of him quite often but not that it has a huge influence on my current life, but I can't seem to get to the point where I'm indifferent towards his actions or behavior. I guess the biggest reason for that is because he has been a clinging boomerang for 2 years, and the last 6 months more of a boomerang.

Can you actually get to a place of indifference if you still have hope for reconcilliation, to my honest opinion I do not believe this is possible.

In my view detachment and indifference are two separate items. They are closely entangled, with one requiring to first find some detachment to then find some indifference.

To be clear, detachment is when our emotional response is no longer dragged around by our spouse’s behaviour, actions, or words. Indifference is when our emotions do not stir or rise from inputs regarding our spouse.

True absolute indifference is the opposite of love. Lots of folks think that hate is the opposite, however hate and love both require strong emotional connection. Indifference comes from the absence of emotional connection.

This loss or lessening of that connection happens as we find and obtain detachment. Indifference can also be influenced and strengthened by our thoughts and actions. Focusing on ourselves, activities that place us in different settings, and such, all reinforce different thoughts and thus influence our emotional self. As you can see, as one gains more indifference they become more detached as well, each influencing the other.

In this way of thinking, it follows that it is possible that one can be completely detached and yet not be completely indifferent. However, the opposite of being completely indifferent and still attached cannot happen.

From my experience, I’ve found that indifference does unwind a bit after a while. Personally, I believe this is an excellent sign of healing and being emotionally healthy. As we find detachment we become quite indifferent to our spouse. This is new territory for us, and the absence of feelings is quite a startling void. This is wildly new and such a relief. Of course, like all feelings, this absence of feeling is fleeting and will change. Lol.

Is it that indifference unwinds or was it not as complete as we first felt it to be? There is truth in both views. I do believe we over estimate how indifference feels, like the rush from a roller coaster that first ride. Subsequent rides are still thrilling, but not quite the same as being brand new. The same for that void. Our indifference is not quite as profound as the days accumulate.

The other side, the unwinding, is the more important aspect. This happens as our absent good/loving feelings return - without the pain and heartache. Indifference unwinds and detachment remains.

To be completely indifferent towards something or someone is the purest form of apathy. A complete and absolute null within one’s life. That level of lacking emotional response towards a previous spouse or person you’ve know is unhealthy.

My W had such an indifference towards me as she was dropping the bomb. She barely even hated me! Oh my, I so wanted her to feel something towards me. Hate I could work with. Indifference has nothing to work with. The complete absence of emotions towards a person. All emotions, good or bad, absent. I was nothing to her. This is a pretty common thing with far gone MLCers.

The indifference for a LBS is not as absolute. Our’s is a more normal and healthy response to processing our grief. Remember, we first become detached, then indifferent. It during this temporary indifference that we have a wonderful opportunity to delve within ourselves, clear of the noise and commotion of our wayward spouse and their antics.

As we heal, we let go our indifference. It is again, normal and healthy. One’s spouse was someone we deeply felt for, cared about, and loved. It would be quite unreasonable to believe that one would just become totally unfeeling about them. And as we move through our grief we unwind indifference a bit and those good/loving feelings do return. Or more accurately, can return. Some people do actively work against this unwinding. That being said, we can/do find a level of indifference. Above completely null and still far from being attached and dragged around.

A few interesting discoveries are at this juncture of being indifferent and not. Caring and compassion requires a level of indifference. One cannot be truly compassionate without some indifference; again not completely for that would make one not compassionate at all. Empathy also requires a certain grasp and ability to wield indifference.

I use the term wield, for indifference can become part of one’s self. It is controllable or influenceable. Seeing detachment and indifference separate and clearly, one can learn to bring it forth or let it go as needed. In essence, to turn indifference on and off at will. Myself, I can within seconds, become indifferent or lower it down as I wish.

It is this place that in my opinion is the wonderful place you seek or should want to seek.

Yes, I can find my XW’s actions amusing, and/or unimportant, and/or have them go unnoticed. All three (and more) exist and can be recalled as I wish to. Her behaviour and words, and the memory of her behaviours and words, is simultaneously viewed in multiple lens without pain or being dragged around.

You know I’ve got a pretty good grip on the emotional side of things. Which is anchored within the intellectual side of things. Which is of course both anchored within my beliefs and values. I see things factually. See XW factually. Her life, her choices. I can see the pain, humour, torment, loss, gain, reason, irrationality, guilt, sin, self-hate, regret, and so on in her choices and life. And I can look away. And I can see possibilities, and yes even see hope for her. And sadly see hopelessness as well.

Indifference is very much needed to first get here, and that bit of unwinding is very much needed to get retain that which we discover and then to go further. Indifference, and especially the unwinding it does, is such a blessing.

In answer to your query: I have hope and I am quite indifferent. It’s just a different kind of indifferent. smile

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If you or anybody else can give me some advice on how to reach this stage, please do so. Definitely the part where you mention the word amusing intrigues me. It must be wonderful to get to this point.

I’ve tried to write to you about this, but I’m finding it difficult to come up with the the words which might make a meaningful and helpful post.

Perhaps some of the veterans could explain this more eloquently? DNJ has certainly given a great perspective above.

The one thing I will say, is that while I made baby steps and steady progress towards detachment purely as a function of time, I think the major shift for me was when it dawned that my long term future was brighter without my ex in it. And I have her to thank for that… she did a great job with some really sh*tty behaviours in a short amount of time, and so what I was pining for suddenly became less attractive than starting again - and voila!

Time heals all wounds. Write a list of all the bad things about staying together and navigating a reconciliation, and all the good things about starting again. While that’s not really the point of a divorce busting, it will allow you to let go of some things, and by extension, shift your mindset towards indifference.

Only once the rope has been completely dropped by you, will the WS/MLCer lose all their power over you.

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Originally Posted by DnJ
I use the term wield, for indifference can become part of one’s self. It is controllable or influenceable. Seeing detachment and indifference separate and clearly, one can learn to bring it forth or let it go as needed. In essence, to turn indifference on and off at will. Myself, I can within seconds, become indifferent or lower it down as I wish.
It is this place that in my opinion is the wonderful place you seek or should want to seek.
Yes, I can find my XW’s actions amusing, and/or unimportant, and/or have them go unnoticed. All three (and more) exist and can be recalled as I wish to. Her behaviour and words, and the memory of her behaviours and words, is simultaneously viewed in multiple lens without pain or being dragged around.
You know I’ve got a pretty good grip on the emotional side of things. Which is anchored within the intellectual side of things. Which is of course both anchored within my beliefs and values. I see things factually. See XW factually. Her life, her choices. I can see the pain, humour, torment, loss, gain, reason, irrationality, guilt, sin, self-hate, regret, and so on in her choices and life. And I can look away. And I can see possibilities, and yes even see hope for her. And sadly see hopelessness as well.
Indifference is very much needed to first get here, and that bit of unwinding is very much needed to get retain that which we discover and then to go further. Indifference, and especially the unwinding it does, is such a blessing.
In answer to your query: I have hope and I am quite indifferent. It’s just a different kind of indifferent. :)D

I have been thinking a lot about this topic the last days. On most of his actions I have found a certain balance, I can control my feelings and most moments I can look or think about him and say, OMG, how far gone are you, and don't feel pain or anything.
There is only one thing though whereby I loose it and that is when I start focusing on OW2.
Why, because I absolutely don't have a clue what kind of R they are having and this is making me nervous/anxious at times. I know, it is out of my control, it is a sympton of MLC etc. but that doesn't seem to help. Must be my difficult point to overcome.
Therefore I have searched for a therapist who is specialized in letting go, to help me how to finally drop the rope as you all state it so nicely. (not my native language so I hope I understand the definition well of dropping the rope)
I know I only need a small push, nothing more. (Simply overcoming the fear/anxiousness when thinking of the OW's...)
My first appointment is next week.

My understanding op "dropping the rope": To finally let them go, to not get dragged anymore into their drama = equals full detachment in my opnion? Please correct me if I'm wrong?

Furthermore, H is still making progress on his path of awakening.

He was about 1 month in the area (not always in home country but very near) and since the talk with the kids there has been some huge changes, not only in his behavior, but also in his words and actions.

As you suggested DnJ, I forwarded a picture of all 3 with their new shirt, he was really happy with that.

He was back in our hometown on Wednesday and asked if he could do his laundry at our home. I agreed. We had a nice afternoon and watched a program on television. His idea and it was actually quite funny...
It was about a famous man's live story (who just had been through a depression and a burn-out after his adultory came out and his wife divorced him but now they are back together)

He agreed to go and watch the football game of S17 in the evening, together with the Twins14. Afterwards he dropped them off and as promised he hadn't had a single drink.
I sent him a message stating that it was a very good action of him to keep his agreement with them.
He replied that he will now do as he promised, that this was the least he could do towards them.
I replied: there is a nice sentence in this regard, being "actions speak louder than words". He agreed with me.

The next day he had planned some nice activities with them.
H first stayed for dinner, and then left with them. When they came home in the evening they were very happy. They had really a great afternoon and told me they hadn't seen him like this in years.

When they got back he hugged me and said thank you for everything you are doing for me.

A little later I sent as small message stating that the kids had a lovely time with him.

He left this morning for the final time to the country where he currently lives and works until the end of the year. Then he is finally coming back. This is also the country where OW2 (or whatever she might be for him) lives. Don't know how this will go in the future but this is on my mind as he doesn't say a word about this to me.

He came early this morning (I was away for work) with breakfast for the kids and to say goodbye to them.

He called me while he was on his way to them. He stayed at his Stepdad's house and apparantely they talked until 4:00 O'clock in the morning. He told me so many things. He was so glad he finally managed to open up to people about what he was going though the past years. He mentioned wake-up call, wanting to become a better person than who he was before, about the fact he is aware he is an alcolholic since several years and that this was running behavior but that he will follow a diet now to stop this drinking. I had a difficult moment on the phone, a bit overwhelmed to hear all these things and he heard, he was very quiet, didn't really know how to react.

After the call I told him sorry for my difficult moment, you know I'm a quite sensitive person...

He replied that this is the least since all what is going on, that I must not hide my feelings, nor will he as otherwise nothing will ever be the same between us.

Yet again nothing about the marriage, nor about the divorce, I don't mention anything either.
The signing of the paperwork is now planned on the 14th of december, If asked the notary to do this digitally if possible since he is not in the country, no answer yet but will most likely be possible.

When he is back the end of december to live here again he will first rent a furnitured appartment for a few months.

I can stay in the house until I have found something new. I'm actively looking now.

When the divorce is arranged, he will buy-in the house, and I will move out with the kids.

TBC...


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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Good Morning Eagle

You are correct, “dropping the rope” refers to emotional detachment. We either let go or get dragged around.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
On most of his actions I have found a certain balance, I can control my feelings and most moments I can look or think about him and say, OMG, how far gone are you, and don't feel pain or anything.

Excellent! That is a most wonderful result.

To help you solidly and promote this to other aspects: It is not our feelings we directly control, we only influence them. One can control their thoughts and actions/reactions.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
If you or anybody else can give me some advice on how to reach this stage, please do so.

Realizing the extent of one’s direct control and one’s much further reach of influence allows one to achieve their desired results with far less fruitless endeavours of trying to control that which we cannot. This rationalizes the process of detachment and indifferent. And internal things that are rational are controllable.

Indifference happens in time. And like you said, sometimes we require a little push to get us going along. An external influence to resolve and accept some internal item we don’t yet understand.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I know, it is out of my control, it is a sympton of MLC etc. but that doesn't seem to help. Must be my difficult point to overcome.

Precisely.

(((Hug))) It’s ok. Perfectly normal and healthy. The answers most present themselves when one is calm and not actively searching. As counterintuitive as that sounds.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
There is only one thing though whereby I loose it and that is when I start focusing on OW2. Why, because I absolutely don't have a clue what kind of R they are having and this is making me nervous/anxious at times.

A few strategies and ideas to promote and influence furthering indifference. I’ll be specific regarding indifference towards OW2 as well.

Rationalize the process. See your control. See what you do influence. And see what is triggering you.

When you “loose it” and start focusing on OW2. Stop! Imagine a big bright red STOP sign. And do what it says. Stop!

This is actually a strategy of detachment. And we know how entangled indifference and detachment are. However, one needs detachment before indifference.

Let go or be dragged. You can see it happening when thoughts of OW2 come up. You are unwillingly being dragged about.

Another tip. Schedule a time to be attached. A time to think about and ponder your feelings about H and OW2. A time to actually feel about this situation.

This scheduling has certain tangible benefits (in no particular order smile ): Schedule a time, like 10 minutes, from 7:00 to 7:10 to allow yourself to be attached. Set an alarm. And do to. Force it. Like cessation of smoking, it weans one off their spouse. It makes it less desirable. A forced time of feeling this stuff also makes it less triggering from some random external event. You are triggering it, everyday at 07:00. Not some outside influence. And that which you can trigger, you can control!

These ten minutes once a day will quickly become all the time time you spend / waste on OW2. Seriously, the remainder of your day will become all your’s. Then, let go those ten minutes. And by the way, by then you will most likely have already stopped. However, if not, set the alarm for 5 minutes, then 3, then zero.

Scheduling also makes it real. The situation of OW2 happened, or is happening. It is real. Treat it as such. A lot of time the default is to first ignore this ugly and horrible thing. That a pretty normal response. And that ignoring becomes the norm. We need to face it. Indifference isn’t ignoring, it is facing a situation and becoming so healed and confident that it no longer hurts.

Yes, you absolutely don't have a clue what kind of R they are having and this is making you nervous/anxious at times. Ah, our imagination. Now where’d I put that big red stop sign?

I’m going to submit that the male ego is just as fragile as the female ego. I get it. I’ve been replaced too. It’s horrible! Letting go one’s ego is a difficult thing. Our need and desire to be right, to be vindicated, and such, is very powerful and strong. Be stronger! Trust me on this. Letting go your ego and needs to prove brings far more power and strength than you can realize right now. And letting go one’s ego tempers that strength with understanding, compassion, and forgiveness.

One of the biggest strategies, not just for indifferent, for life, is having and seeing your destination. I suspect you see how most of my posts deal with the vision of our lives. To live a great life, one needs to see it first.

The destination is acceptance, forgiveness, understanding, compassion, empathy, etc. Living in the light. A clear destination allows a better path. And all journeys are made of small steps. We at times many not realize the small steps we take, yet after a while we are amazed at how far we’ve come. Keep your headings noble and good. For everyday you walk your path, even if you don’t see it.

We all require a certain level of understanding before we can will let go. Rationalize the irrational. Understand yourself. And in doing so the world turns a sharper focus.

OW2 is a symptom of H’s MLC. She is also a person. Remember, indifference is facing a situation and becoming so healed and confident it no longer hurts.

Your anxiety, nervousness, and fear regarding OW2. Currently, your triggers exists outside of your rational thought and control. Therefore, thoughts regarding OW2 influence unwanted feelings and anxiety.

Some truths: You are imagining a far better picture than H and OW2 are living, or lived. You are comparing yourself to OW2.

So, let’s rationalize this. See it clearly. Feel it clearly. Become indifferent in the very best meaning of the word.

You know H’s life. He shows regret. He’s told you some of his demons. He is a troubled man. Any relationship he would attempt is a shadow at best. One cannot have a meaningful wholesome relationship if they do not love and have a relationship with themselves first. H does not love himself. The rest fall apart after that.

The truth of a relationship with such a broken troubled soul - it is built upon a foundation of sand. Sand is a terrible weak foundation to build upon.

OW2 is drawn to H. She is equally or more so broken and troubled.

Turn your comparing around 180 degrees. You have been comparing you to OW2. Compare OW2 to you. She falls short on so many desired traits and convictions.

You are far more loyal, loving, faithful, honourable, compassionate, whole and healed, than she. You display it. You live it. You have the very life and family OW2 is desperately after. Your boys love you! Because you are you! (Strength and confidence.)

The truth, there is no need to demonize OW2. She is not worthy of such. She is, in fact, worthy of your forgiveness. Oh my, that is such a big leap. Yes?

Trust me. Forgive OW2. It is for you. Realize you forgive the sin, not the person. So, in fact, it’s love OW2 and forgive her sins. Believe me, it’s not as far away as it sounds. When one understands something or someone, empathy flourishes. How can one hate someone who is so understood? When you cross that threshold and discover and understand, it all becomes so clear. In the act of understanding you find love / truth and all their once held power disappears. That is a different kind of indifference. One that becomes you. One that is whole and healthy.

Forgiveness of OW2 is just another waypoint / destination along your journey. Another noble goal of which you can base why and which small steps to take. Those noble steps influence indifference and more importantly will allow healthy unwinding and emotional understanding.

And that is all acceptance really is - emotional understanding. It is quite a journey.

D


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And let's be fair to OW2 - she may have NO IDEA that he isn't already divorced, or amicably separated. You don't know what he's been telling her.

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Well, those two replies gave me a lot to think and act! about this week.

The first 2 days I applied the method you described to me DnJ, amazingly the desire to think about her faded and was completely gone the 3rd day. For the rest of the week I didn't even think about it for a minute and mainly put the focus back on myself and the children. So thank you for that!

About the fact that I don't know at all what kind of R they are having/had + the fact that I really don't know at all what he told her makes it much easier for me to distance myself from this.
I know that I sometimes unconsciously create truths of my own. (thak you kml for pointing that out)

S17 has been having a hard time recent weeks. I had noticed it myself, but came out in the open after 2 of his teachers sent an e-mail about his behavior of the last few weeks. H also received these emails.

It took days before S could communicate openly. I know I have to be patient with S.

First he expresses this in frustration, this goes from making nonchalant remarks or showing arrogant behavior, both in school and at home, then he starts telling step by step what is wrong.

Apparently he's been having a lot of difficulties with his F's behavior lately. When he showed heavy MLC behavior he struggled with that for a long time, but then gave it a place, after all it has been going on for 3 years, but now that H has been awake for several weeks, it is difficult for him to take a position on how to deal with it.
On the one hand he is happy that his F is so calm and open and shows a lot of behavior from the old H, on the other hand he is afraid that it will only be temporary, so he actually wants to keep his heart closed but then actually not again.
He is also having a hard time with the impending divorce.
He doesn't understand that I'm giving up, after 3 years of fighting for the M, and now that H is finally making progress, the D is on the program. He cannot understand that either.

The strange thing is that I actually have the same feeling in many areas. So you can see how strongly children experience all of this, especially when they are older and aware of what is going on.

I told S17 that I'm not giving up, but that most likely the reason for his awakening is actually the fact that he is starting to realize he is losing everything. I also told him that his F wanted the D, he only didn't want to arrange anything. Then there is the fact that there is only progress in H's behavior towards reconnection with the kids, not towards me and S has difficulties to understand this. I told him that this could take a long time, and possibly will even never happen again.
But that what is happening now is maybe the way forward, even if it involves a D.

H called yesterday to talk about S. I told most of the above honestly (definitely the 1st part about the feelings S has towards his F, but skipped the last part about what I told S about not giving up, I only told he had difficulties with the D, nothing more) and he was again very understanding and understood S17's response perfectly.

He suggested talking to S himself if he was open to it, this over the phone (H still lives abroad) or F2F. S has to choose what he feels most comfortable with. If S wants, H will fly over next week to talk about it, the two of them together on a night out.

Something different.
Somebody gave me the advice to gently ask H if it was not better to put the D on hold for a while, since he is making progress. I have my own opinion, and would like to know yours if possible.

Yes, I do still want reconcilliation if H is becoming his new self. The one I see currently I really like but I don't want to push him away with reconnection or reconcilliation talks. I think he is the one who needs to start showing his interest, or do I see this wrongly?

Thx.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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Hi, Eagle -- Sending you lots of love!

It looks to me like you are doing a lot of heavy lifting for you H. Trying to fix his relationship with your kids or explain his behavior. Thinking about pointing out truths to him to shift his course. I know you don't see it that way but for someone like me who went completely dark, it really looks like you are still tied to that in many ways.

The D has nothing to do with his choice to stay or leave. You can D and restore or you can not D and restore.

My advice would be to be there for your kids but don't get involved in trying to influence anything. Just let your S talk about his feelings and ask him questions to help him decide what to do. Don't tell your H anything about your kids unless he initiates the questions. Write long letters to him about not getting a D or ask God or the universe or the forest trees to convince him to stop, but then burn or bury the letters. Don't tell your H any of that stuff. Lighthouses don't talk or ask ships to come see their light. They just beam light in the darkness. It's great that you said very little about your S but I would say even less. You can say things like, "I am not sure about that. When you next see him, sounds like a conversation to have." Or "S is very private but perhaps he will talk to you about it some time."

I personally wouldn't talk to him about this stuff at all! He destroyed the family and now he wants to chat about it? No! That's what therapists and pastors are for. He needs to do that work himself!

Think of the stereotype of the psychiatrist saying, "Hmm." You can be that if you must allow these conversations to occur.

Remember, the D is a business arrangement. It's about property, not love or care or faithfulness. At least in most states. Don't try to stop it for the sake of saving your M. Your actual M is a separate matter. Your H knows you are open to his return. You don't have to keep trying to remind him, and he has to work for it when he's ready, if that day ever comes.

Last edited by Gerda; 11/19/21 02:24 PM.

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Originally Posted by Gerda
Hi, Eagle -- Sending you lots of love!

Hi Gerda, so nice to hear something from you! Hope you are doing well and sending lots of love back your way!!!

Originally Posted by Gerda
It looks to me like you are doing a lot of heavy lifting for you H. Trying to fix his relationship with your kids or explain his behavior. Thinking about pointing out truths to him to shift his course. I know you don't see it that way but for someone like me who went completely dark, it really looks like you are still tied to that in many ways.

I really appreciate your opinion, but TBH, indeed, I don't see it that way. As long as he was monstering, not showing any remorse etc. I never accommodated the R between the children and him. It was also their decision at a certain point to end their R with their Dad.

This created a huge awakening for him.

Yes, he destroyed the family and has given trauma's to the children and to me which will never be forgotten. I have gone dark a few times over the past 3 years when I couldn't handle his behavior anymore, but that was more for me, to prevent me from going downhill the same way he did.
I don't have the need to go dark currently though.

The past few weeks H is really trying to fix the R with his children and he asked me to support him with that.

He has been talking openly about his behavior of the past years and knows he has been very wrong.

I know talking is not enough, the actions must be there as well and therefore I was very cautious in the beginning but but since I also see the actions and the way he currently handles his R with his children I can only support this.
It's not that I'm trying to fix his R with his children, he needs to do that himself, but if he asks to talk about certain things I simply answer his questions and then we try to come to a possible solution that works for all parties. As long as this can be done in a gentle and a polite way, I don't see why I would not support this.

Is it possible this will shift again, of course, and I'm aware of that, but that doesn't mean that I don't have to apply the unconditionals now. When it seems to go again in the other direction I will immediately go back to what I did before that.

Originally Posted by Gerda
Remember, the D is a business arrangement. It's about property, not love or care or faithfulness. At least in most states. Don't try to stop it for the sake of saving your M. Your actual M is a separate matter. Your H knows you are open to his return. You don't have to keep trying to remind him, and he has to work for it when he's ready, if that day ever comes.

Here I fully agree with what you are saying. These are two separate things. It is simply because I regularly get expectations again (heart thinking) but I know I better follow what I've started (mind thinking)

Have a great day dear Gerda!!

Last edited by Eagle3; 11/19/21 05:01 PM.

Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
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Hello Eagle

I am glad thoughts regarding OW2 have lessened.

Sorry to see S17 having difficulties. Yes, MLC and divorce has many casualties among the innocent bystanders.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Apparently he's been having a lot of difficulties with his F's behavior lately. When he showed heavy MLC behavior he struggled with that for a long time, but then gave it a place, after all it has been going on for 3 years, but now that H has been awake for several weeks, it is difficult for him to take a position on how to deal with it.

Recall it took son time to come to terms with Dad’s MLC behaviour. And it will take time to understand and come to terms with Dad’s current behaviour and his path of flipping and flopping until it becomes permanent, if it indeed does.

Uncertainty is a difficult facet of life we all come to terms with. Kids and young adults are changing and rebelling and testing. They especially test their parents, to see if they will be there for them. Son hopes and wants to hope regarding Dad, yet has valid reservations. It makes perfect sense not wanting to risk heartache again. Betrayal is a tough thing to move forward from.

And that is one of the biggest thing with kids and all this mess. They are kids and still maturing. Their emotions are young and they do not let go with a well-developed emotional understanding. Heck, it takes us years to figure this out too.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
He is also having a hard time with the impending divorce. He doesn't understand that I'm giving up, after 3 years of fighting for the M, and now that H is finally making progress, the D is on the program. He cannot understand that either.

The strange thing is that I actually have the same feeling in many areas. So you can see how strongly children experience all of this, especially when they are older and aware of what is going on.

The path at times is very counterintuitive and does feel and appear wrong until one realizes it actually isn’t.

If I may, it is not understanding that is what S17 is struggling with the most. It is empathizing.

Empathy is an emotionally mature quality. Something that one usually gains command of later after adolescence. Teenager are busy being heathy teenagers and their intellect is the major growth area.

S17’s non-understanding is more a lack of emotional understanding or lack of empathizing with you. Not all that shocking, how many 17 year old boys know what it feels like to be a Mom going through a divorce.

This is also similar for you. You haven’t divorced before from a MLCer that might be awakening. We all don’t know what or how to feel during first times of anything.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I told S17 that I'm not giving up, but that most likely the reason for his awakening is actually the fact that he is starting to realize he is losing everything. I also told him that his F wanted the D, he only didn't want to arrange anything. Then there is the fact that there is only progress in H's behavior towards reconnection with the kids, not towards me and S has difficulties to understand this. I told him that this could take a long time, and possibly will even never happen again. But that what is happening now is maybe the way forward, even if it involves a D.

Good. The best way to alleviate son’s questions and concerns is through discussion. And son will lead at whatever pace he needs and ask age appropriate questions. Just got to remain calm, be factual, not demonized his father, and so on.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
First he expresses this in frustration, this goes from making nonchalant remarks or showing arrogant behavior, both in school and at home, then he starts telling step by step what is wrong.

Oh, I see you have a seventeen year old boy living at home. smile

He is expressing himself, rather healthily methinks. It’s when it remains bottled up I’d start getting concerned.

S17 tells you step by step what is wrong. This is wonderful! Don’t fret about his path to eventually getting to that point. He is after all a rebellious teenager. And you are one of his trusted loved figures he needs to test and rebel against. Oh my goodness, adolescence is such a pain. Lol.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Yes, I do still want reconcilliation if H is becoming his new self. The one I see currently I really like but I don't want to push him away with reconnection or reconcilliation talks. I think he is the one who needs to start showing his interest, or do I see this wrongly?

That view is right on the money.

H needs to approach reconnection and/or reconciliation. He needs to. As much as he was driven and needed to run, he has to find the need and drive to return. And that will start with a tiny whisper of doubt within him.

You have already seen his doubting of his path. And you have seen him revert back and run a bit. Like a teenager testing you, he is ensuring you are not going to yell or turn on him. He is growing and is looking for assurance and acceptance.

Like a timid squirrel H will bolt if pushed or frightened. He is becoming stronger and is remaining in the moment longer and longer.

Be patient, keep moving forward, be that lighthouse / role model, and H might just decided to catch up.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Somebody gave me the advice to gently ask H if it was not better to put the D on hold for a while, since he is making progress. I have my own opinion, and would like to know yours if possible.

I think it not a good idea for you to ask to put the divorce on hold while H is demonstrating this awakening and making palpable progress. Although I do have other considerations I’d explore.

My reasoning, like everything, is for you.

Unless I missed the mark, you’d like to slow down the divorce to explore just how awakened H actually is.

Now, H’s awakening is quite likely from the very real loss he is feeling. The impending divorce is a big part of that. I’d not remove that, just maybe slow it a bit. Again, to be clear, this is not manipulation of H, this is because of you wanting to do all you can to save your marriage. This is an action for you, not a reaction to H’s behaviour.

A quick caveat, if you need financial protection or security proceed with the divorce. Of course, three years in you got things well sorted out. I think your need is rather mute at this point, as you’ve already covered all your bases.

So, IMHO, reconciliation talks could be an interesting avenue that you could explore. Tread carefully! Very limited pushing and prodding.

If this is an idea you’d like to explore, first make a list of items, responses, demonstrated behaviours, and such that you’d need to see to realize H is moving in the correct direction. Do this before any conversations and while rational and logical. Some small steps or series of steps that would be indicative of wanted progress. And, if possible, what is behind H’s movement. Internal awakening or due to external forces? That kind of thing.

You may slow the divorce process if you wish. I’d not stop it, and depending upon timelines may not even slow it down. That being said, depending upon H’s behaviours, and consistency, and your assessment of his steps, you have right up until you sign the dotted line to stop the divorce.

Currently, H is willing to settle and purchase the house. And he appears to be rather amicable. That may change.

Therefore, explore his awakening, yet continue with the divorce. Anything short of Godly remorse, dumping OW2, and truly significant behaviour change doesn’t have H hitting rock bottom. And he needs to hit rock bottom.

As you correctly stated, H needs to come to you with reconciliation desire and demonstrated behaviour. To start showing interest. And he ain’t there yet. So, no need to for you change your rational path. As much as it feels differently.

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His awakening still continues.

In the meantime he has been back in the country where he currently lives for 2 weeks and he is really not doing well.
He realizes more and more what has happened in recent years and depression has once again taken the upper hand, but in a different way from what I saw in the passed, much more realization now, not playing victim anymore as he used to do when depressed.
He is very unhappy there and I suspect that he might lose his job. (luckily he gets a huge severance pay when that happens)
He has moments when he is still very withdrawn and angry, but these are very short-lived, especially when I talk to him about it, he allows that now.
His cycling between the different phases is present in unseen speed. (excited, angry, withdrawn, childish, depressed)
It's so obvious that I can recognize it even from such a distance just from the messages he sends to the kids and me.
The weird thing is, the more determined I am now, the more he listens.
I've also learned that if I say my sentences in a friendly but quite forceful way, he now listens effectively and follows what I'm saying.
I've never experienced this with him.

Late last week it had unseen heights (suicidal tendencies) that prompted me to tell him to return to his homeland immediately to be closer to us and the family.
He listened to this and will return this week.
This means that he will come back to live in the house temporarily (at my request) until he finds an apartment which he can rent on short contract.
Yes, this is a risk but I now feel like I have to do this. I told him he must be surrounded with love and warmth and be close to his children, taken into account that there are clearly imposed rules.

I have followed the advice given to most people here and so I made clear rules and forwarded them to him.
This goes from open communication, treating me and the children with respect, indicating if something is not going well in a respectful way, to the division of the household tasks, not drinking, as well as psychiatric help.
For the latter I have given him some time until he is ready for it himself, the rest will be with immediate effect. He has agreed to everything.

If he does not follow one of the above agreed rules, he has to go to a hotel.

I also have everything in writing.

Nothing was discussed about the D, everything continues for the time being. The agreement will still be signed mid-December as planned.

Do you have any advice on how to deal with certain things because this will be completely new to me.

Thanks.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
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Good Morning Eagle

It certainly appears that H is experiencing a significant internal shift. This will be as disorienting to him (and you) as much as when he first shifted into running. The speed between emotional states - excited, angry, withdrawn, childish, depressed - is still much beyond his rational influence. Perfectly normal progress, and rather healthy steps towards healing (not stuck running is a good thing). There will be a length of time as he finds himself and becomes comfortable in his own skin. And there will likely be falls and setbacks.

Impending holiday festivities is a common driver for crisis individuals to peek out of the tunnel. In H’s case it’s propelling him along his awakening path. This type of pressure is a good thing for an MLCer. It is mostly self-regulated and does not come from the LBS.

It is a very good sign to see H letting go playing the victim. Remaining on that trajectory will certainly be beneficial for him. Let’s hope he does.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Late last week it had unseen heights (suicidal tendencies) that prompted me to tell him to return to his homeland immediately to be closer to us and the family.
He listened to this and will return this week.

A nice compassionate response by you. Your heart is in the right place.

The depth of depression an MLCer will experience is incredible. Like their at first unrealized pain and trauma(s), their depression is dark and all enveloping. They will be consumed by it, and they need to work through it.

That level of depression brings tendencies - really more thoughts and feelings than actions; more imagined than crafted into real. These tendencies are normal and seldom followed through. The ones that usual follow through are the ones who do not speak about their tendencies. We do not know they are feeling suicidal. For those who we do know - one’s who have shared - the risk is lower.

H listening and accepting your offer to return home is interesting.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
The weird thing is, the more determined I am now, the more he listens.
I've also learned that if I say my sentences in a friendly but quite forceful way, he now listens effectively and follows what I'm saying.
I've never experienced this with him.

Do you mean you’ve never experienced this with H for the entire marriage or more just MLCer H?

Either way shows an interesting growth on H’s (and your) part.

Everything in life, including any possible resolution of marital strife (yes, even MLC), requires effective communication. Both a willingness to listen/hear, and the ability to find a way to translate your intended message for the target recipient. It looks like you and H have a bridge somewhat built now. Strengthen it. (Gently smile )

Originally Posted by Eagle3
This means that he will come back to live in the house temporarily (at my request) until he finds an apartment which he can rent on short contract.

How long did you give him or expect him to be under your roof? (Unmet expectations and all. Do realize and keep them at zero.)

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Yes, this is a risk but I now feel like I have to do this.

Do not make life altering decisions based upon feelings.

I do get why you are doing what you are doing. However, does this better capture your “feelings”?

- Yes, this is a risk but I now feel like think I have to do this.

Or better yet.

- Yes, this is a risk but I now feel like believe I have to do this.

While clarifying, it’s not the risk you are trying to acknowledge/justify it’s the consequences. And that little word “but” is pretty indicative of contrary ideals being smushed together.

Is this a statement you can say?

- There is a chance of some undesirable consequences which I am willing to accept.

Thoughts, beliefs, convictions, and realization. Make your decisions based upon them. By the way, I do believe you are leading your decisions-making properly; you’re just running it through your emotional filter to see how you feel about it. And that is the risky part. smile

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I told him he must be surrounded with love and warmth and be close to his children, taken into account that there are clearly imposed rules.

Nicely done stating the boundaries. And even in writing. That does, hopefully, illustrate H’s willingness to adhere to them.

Telling H what he needed, although went over well, is not generally a good idea. Yes, you may actually know what he needs. Problem is, he needs to discover what he needs. Or perhaps learn to articulate it. For example, H coming to you and requesting to be close to his children.

Remember MLCers are not like us LBS actively looking for betterment and enlightenment. They will eventually get to that phase after depression and withdrawal.

Anyhow, no big deal, this is after all a strange path. One which you are walking really well.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Do you have any advice on how to deal with certain things because this will be completely new to me.

First, let’s tackle the elephant in the room. The divorce/separation agreement still planned to be signed mid-December and living under same roof and surrounded by love and children and happy Christmas joy. Certainly, some cake and eating it too.

Eagle, I completely support you and I’m confused. I’m pretty rational, imagine how H views this.

I think you want to delay signing the divorce. That’s ok. Actually, given all that is going on, perhaps it’s even better.

H could have come back to home country and stayed in a hotel and only visit during the day to be close to children. Your hopeful arrangements beckon a different outcome than divorced. Might as well have the actions match the words. Delay signing until February. Then reassess.

Now, to be clear, this is risky! However, life is full of risks. And consequences. And benefits.

The pressure of divorce is undoubted propelling H. If he signed and all that was awaiting was your signature… Hmmm. I don’t like the Sword of Damocles hanging over H’s head. Or anyone’s. Fear is not a good, nor lasting, influence for behaviour modification or growth.

A delay should probably be openly discussed and agreed upon. You could, and should, tell H why you are proposing to delay. His demonstrated behaviour.

Positive reinforcement is a good influence for lasting behaviour change. H is demonstrating positive behaviour. (I am figuring there are no OW’s in the picture. If there are, scratch all this.)

As I’ve stated before, this is all for you. Your very question of how to deal with this new unknown territory shows you are not wanting, or ready, to be “divorced and done”. Of course, “done” was not your path. Not yet anyhow. Perhaps H needs to hear that. Perhaps you needed to hear that.

Some advice on how to deal with certain things because it will be completely new to you. Well, your path is not new to you. Keep walking it.

We all make choices and learn from them. The future is unknown and all one can do is the best they can.

H is demonstrating some really positive signs. Your desire has always been reconciliation. There is an opportunity before you. Take it. Gently and slowly. See where it goes. You’ve got plenty of time.

Now that the elephant is dealt with, dealing with H and his awakening. Dig for patience! And then dig some more!

Oh my, at times H is going to appear to progress maddeningly slow. Even appear stopped. People’s progress is internal and only some of it externally shows until later on.

You do you. Keep walking your path. Live, love, be compassionate, be kind, forgive, etc… H will catch up. Look at what he has done so far. More importantly, look at what you’ve done!

Do not go backwards. You love the new and improved and wiser and stronger you. And that is attracting H. However, that is just a bonus, your primary goal and purpose was and is you.

A few certain things that will pop up. H will be moody. He will be depressed. He will withdrawal. Let him. He needs to traverse his emotions and find acceptance.

Communicate openly and honestly. That doesn’t mean telling everything upfront and overwhelming H. Let him lead the pace. You will have to often bite your tongue.

You have questions for him. Answers will come. Do not push. In fact, once (if) you two get to that point those questions/answers actually won’t be as pressing anymore.

Remember, as things come up with H, it’s ok to take time to consider a response or action. To tell him, let me think about that for a bit.

You are doing really well Eagle.

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Originally Posted by DnJ
Originally Posted by Eagle3
The weird thing is, the more determined I am now, the more he listens.
I've also learned that if I say my sentences in a friendly but quite forceful way, he now listens effectively and follows what I'm saying.
I've never experienced this with him.
Do you mean you’ve never experienced this with H for the entire marriage or more just MLCer H?
Either way shows an interesting growth on H’s (and your) part. D

Interesting question to ask. Haven’t thought about that.
Never anymore while in MLC. Before that he did but I was more of the listener and him more the talker but that definitely changed from my side, seems him as well.
I will follow your advice and strengthen this gently.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Originally Posted by Eagle3
This means that he will come back to live in the house temporarily (at my request) until he finds an apartment which he can rent on short contract.
How long did you give him or expect him to be under your roof? (Unmet expectations and all. Do realize and keep them at zero.) D

I have not given a date as yet. I have given him the rules to follow and he knows that if these are not met he will have to go to a hotel. That has been made very clear.
I know I have to keep my expectations at zero, and I’m aware this will not be easy.
As I said before there is hope (and for me expectations and hope are still kind of linked together) but it is not that I can still be BD’d. I can live with or without him.
I definitely reached that stage for almost a year now.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Originally Posted by Eagle3
Yes, this is a risk but I now feel like I have to do this.
Do not make life altering decisions based upon feelings.
I do get why you are doing what you are doing. However, does this better capture your “feelings”?
- Yes, this is a risk but I now feel like think I have to do this.
Or better yet.
- Yes, this is a risk but I now feel like believe I have to do this.
While clarifying, it’s not the risk you are trying to acknowledge/justify it’s the consequences. And that little word “but” is pretty indicative of contrary ideals being smushed together.
Is this a statement you can say?
- There is a chance of some undesirable consequences which I am willing to accept.
Thoughts, beliefs, convictions, and realization. Make your decisions based upon them. By the way, I do believe you are leading your decisions-making properly; you’re just running it through your emotional filter to see how you feel about it. And that is the risky part. smile D

Damn, I have formulated it wrongly again. Not mother tongue…😊
I firmly believe this is what I have to do.
I told my mother a few days ago that I’m convinced I have to do this, as otherwise I would regret it.
So yes, I can definitely say this statement, without a doubt, I’m not a doubter at all. Never have been.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Originally Posted by Eagle3
I told him he must be surrounded with love and warmth and be close to his children, taken into account that there are clearly imposed rules.
Nicely done stating the boundaries. And even in writing. That does, hopefully, illustrate H’s willingness to adhere to them.
Telling H what he needed, although went over well, is not generally a good idea. Yes, you may actually know what he needs. Problem is, he needs to discover what he needs. Or perhaps learn to articulate it. For example, H coming to you and requesting to be close to his children.
Remember MLCers are not like us LBS actively looking for betterment and enlightenment. They will eventually get to that phase after depression and withdrawal.
Anyhow, no big deal, this is after all a strange path. One which you are walking really well. D

Yes, you are right, but I know this is what he wants from what he told me the past days/weeks.
Normal H has always been a person who had difficulties formulating what he wants, definitely when it concerns emotions. He can show it but can’t express it.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Originally Posted by Eagle3
Do you have any advice on how to deal with certain things because this will be completely new to me.
First, let’s tackle the elephant in the room. The divorce/separation agreement still planned to be signed mid-December and living under same roof and surrounded by love and children and happy Christmas joy. Certainly, some cake and eating it too.
Eagle, I completely support you and I’m confused. I’m pretty rational, imagine how H views this.
I think you want to delay signing the divorce. That’s ok. Actually, given all that is going on, perhaps it’s even better.
H could have come back to home country and stayed in a hotel and only visit during the day to be close to children. Your hopeful arrangements beckon a different outcome than divorced. Might as well have the actions match the words. Delay signing until February. Then reassess.
Now, to be clear, this is risky! However, life is full of risks. And consequences. And benefits.
The pressure of divorce is undoubted propelling H. If he signed and all that was awaiting was your signature… Hmmm. I don’t like the Sword of Damocles hanging over H’s head. Or anyone’s. Fear is not a good, nor lasting, influence for behaviour modification or growth.
A delay should probably be openly discussed and agreed upon. You could, and should, tell H why you are proposing to delay. His demonstrated behaviour.
Positive reinforcement is a good influence for lasting behaviour change. H is demonstrating positive behaviour. (I am figuring there are no OW’s in the picture. If there are, scratch all this.)
As I’ve stated before, this is all for you. Your very question of how to deal with this new unknown territory shows you are not wanting, or ready, to be “divorced and done”. Of course, “done” was not your path. Not yet anyhow. Perhaps H needs to hear that. Perhaps you needed to hear that. D

I have difficulties answering this part. I simply don’t know yet if I want to delay the D, and I definitely don’t know what he wants and for this you need to be with 2.
Yes, my desire has always been reconciliation, but this with an H that suits me, can make me happy, treat me with respect and loves me, in short someone who I want to be with, not the MLC H.
This one I don’t want anymore. I still want to be there for MLC H in a certain way but not stay married to him.
If I see he is trying and there is progress, even when it is slow, I would certainly be patient and try to delay the D, but this is not only up to me.
This is also his decision, and until now we haven’t talked about that yet.
This will become clear in the coming weeks.

Would you, in my case, start the conversation about delaying when there is progress noticeable, or would you let him lead (which I think he won’t)?
What if he says, “definitely not, why would you want to do that?”
I want to be prepared.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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Oh yes, forgot to mention important item. No more OW.
You know I have never known what kind of R they had but this might have to be processed as well.
I'm aware this can have an effect on his behavior. (depression)


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
Joined: Jan 2018
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Likes: 472
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Hello Eagle

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Damn, I have formulated it wrongly again. Not mother tongue…😊

Not at all my dear. You speak quite eloquently.

I was wondering how convinced you are. You and I are friends and I figured I could just ask and prod a bit to see how firmly you believe it.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I firmly believe this is what I have to do.
I told my mother a few days ago that I’m convinced I have to do this, as otherwise I would regret it.
So yes, I can definitely say this statement, without a doubt, I’m not a doubter at all. Never have been.

Lol. I wrote my couple of sentences up there ^^^ and then read the next quote. Ha.

Yes, you firmly believe and are strongly convinced. By the way, I didn’t doubt you for a second.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Normal H has always been a person who had difficulties formulating what he wants, definitely when it concerns emotions. He can show it but can’t express it.

Given that H has expressed his wishes previously. Do continue gently leading and guiding somewhat. These lost souls do need to learn how to express their emotions and they usually have not had very good role models during their informative years. It’s ok to shine and display how to do that.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I have difficulties answering this part. I simply don’t know yet if I want to delay the D, and I definitely don’t know what he wants and for this you need to be with 2.

It’s ok not to know.

Again, I asked, prodded, and was wondering how convinced and sure you are.

My general advice/suggestion is unless you are absolutely sure, don’t do things that are this difficult to undo. Unless you require financial protection or security; then for sure proceed.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Would you, in my case, start the conversation about delaying when there is progress noticeable, or would you let him lead (which I think he won’t)?
What if he says, “definitely not, why would you want to do that?”
I want to be prepared.

Given what I know about your situation and you:

I agree, H is unlikely to lead proposing a delay before mid-December.

He is showing positive signs and progress.

I’d start the conversation and suggest delaying the divorce for a bit.

One of the biggest reasons - No OW. This is a huge signal and sign of progress. It takes a lot for such a troubled person to let go of that affair and start facing their life and what they’ve done.

H’s steps so far are no small deal. Yes, he has much still left to walk, yet he has done well. Your conversation could be geared towards two prongs of thought and influence. First, you are seeing improvement and liking what you see. Second, he is demonstrating positive behaviours and changes. And is worth delaying things for.

Now, I realize this is a pretty big heap of pressure to H. However, people do aspire to meet goals. People will meet the goals that are set either by them or others. If those goals are not challenging then people just slide along. If the goals are way too high, they give up. Something I’ve always found when dealing with people - let them amaze you by just how much they can accomplish.

Placing the bar for H just high enough and reflecting his worthiness and growth will encourage more positive behaviours.

A MLCer cannot handle pressure. However, H is not in full blown MLC, he is displaying signs of awakening. Go slow and gently; he may just amazing you.

If H response negatively; “definitely not, why would you want to do that?”; don’t fret. You just stay the course. Shrug it off and keep moving. There really is nothing to lose.

I know you are strong enough and interested enough to explore this. Sure, there is risk. And there is reward. I’d love to be in such a position that this was even possible with XW.

If you have any ideas or such you want to test run or get feedback on. Or want to discuss other strategies before the conversation day. I am available.

One last thing. This is not manipulation. You are only influencing H. Gently steering the conversation and his thinking. H still has to walk his path. Still has to finish his crisis. And I believe he might be now ready for such influence.

Best wishes.

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Originally Posted by DnJ
Yes, you firmly believe and are strongly convinced. By the way, I didn’t doubt you for a second.D

LOL, I was in the believe you indeed knew me already that well by now.
BTW, very nice to hear I'm your friend. smile

Originally Posted by DnJ
I’d start the conversation and suggest delaying the divorce for a bit.

One of the biggest reasons - No OW. This is a huge signal and sign of progress. It takes a lot for such a troubled person to let go of that affair and start facing their life and what they’ve done.

H’s steps so far are no small deal. Yes, he has much still left to walk, yet he has done well. Your conversation could be geared towards two prongs of thought and influence. First, you are seeing improvement and liking what you see. Second, he is demonstrating positive behaviours and changes. And is worth delaying things for.

I know you are strong enough and interested enough to explore this. Sure, there is risk. And there is reward. I’d love to be in such a position that this was even possible with XW.

If you have any ideas or such you want to test run or get feedback on. Or want to discuss other strategies before the conversation day. I am available.D

YESSSSSS! I can use some help here on how to start this conversation.

I'n the meanwhile I want to share some of our conversation and what I have seen...

Since yesterday he is back home. So Saturday decided to come back to home country "permanently" (of course we never know this with an MLC'er smile.
Arrived already yesterday with all his belongings. It seems he couldn't wait to come home. You should have seen his suitcases...everything was literally thrown in. I've never seen such thing before...

In the car on the way back from the airport he was very quite. I initiated talking a bit and then he became more chatty.

He asked about the children and what they think about the fact he will be living in the house. I answered very honestly, 2 are OK with it, one is keeping his guard down, no faith at all in his F, he understood.

Then about his awareness that he slipped back the past weeks into "the other room in his head".

About the fact he needs to process the loss of the R with OW2, so finally he admitted this way he had an R with her.

That he has had very good times in that country but also really bad times. And, at one point, a very interesting question he asked himself out loud:
If I look back at the past 3 years, I'm 42 years old, how did I end up in such situation, that is not appropriate for someone my age.

Didn't really know what to answer there...so kept quiet.

I kept my calm at all times. We had a pleasant evening. I'm fully detached. When I look at him, I feel love, but I'm not in love with him anymore. For me this is the place I wanted to be in.
I'm OK with either direction. If it is meant to be perhaps I can fall in love again, if not, so be it.

I have lived a day at a time for the past 3 years, never tried to look upfront anymore, although it was difficult to accept this in the beginning, this seems to be the perfect way to live my life, and I have the advantages of this now.

Have a great day!!

Last edited by Eagle3; 12/02/21 10:00 AM.

Me(45)EXH(44)
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04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
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Hello Eagle

Originally Posted by Eagle3
YESSSSSS! I can use some help here on how to start this conversation.

smile Let’s take a look at what’s currently going on and see what we can come up with. We’ll merge some bridging strategies with his current emotional state and see if any of it resonates with you.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Arrived already yesterday with all his belongings. It seems he couldn't wait to come home. You should have seen his suitcases...everything was literally thrown in. I've never seen such thing before...

It seems H is quite eager. Even excited. This is good. It always better when one is looking forward to something rather than dreading it. We’ll keep that in mind. Keep the conversations ones that H looks forward to. Wants to run to, not run from.

H is like a teenager still. He is excited about this and dreading it. Encourage the positive.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
In the car on the way back from the airport he was very quite. I initiated talking a bit and then he became more chatty.

Yes, H is rather non-initiating. That’s ok. You start, let H joining, with whatever subject he becomes chatty about. It looks like he is ok with talking, you just got to get him going.

Remember, he is starting to actually see what he did. That is not something easily brought up.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Then about his awareness that he slipped back the past weeks into "the other room in his head".

Slipping and backsliding is normal and expected. I didn’t expect H to actually realize so well. I am surprised. He realizes, well maybe he cannot define it yet, but he realizes he is/was mentally and emotionally compartmentalizing. The “other room in his head” is excellent self realization. To see that you are doing that. Really good to see. A very good sign.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
About the fact he needs to process the loss of the R with OW2, so finally he admitted this way he had an R with her.

Excellent!!!

This is great.

Admitting one’s faults is a huge step. However, the really big step here - admitting it to you.

H is looking for guidance. He is looking for acceptance. He is looking for forgiveness. First from you. He needs to know and believe that you accept him with this past affair. You need to remain calm and just validate. No arguing. No fighting. No blaming him. I know, I know, it’s very unfair. You have to be the bigger person. Remember scared squirrel.

The second person he is looking for acceptance and forgiveness and love is the hardest one - himself.

This is what being a beacon is about. Being the lighthouse. H does not love himself. He does not forgive himself for what he has done. He cannot accept it. Yet.

Like teaching a kid, you accept, love, and forgive him. You demonstrate how to forgive and love through your actions and conversations with him. Mostly your actions. Kind, compassionate, understanding, etc… He will see, watch, learn, and apply what he sees. Slowly he will learn to love himself and forgive himself. Then he will love others.

It’s an interesting thing to gauge how someone else is inside. People often project themselves upon the world. For example, a liar believe everyone lies. A thief would never trust enough to leave his belongings just sitting out in a table.

How kind or loving someone is interesting. One must first love themselves before they can love someone else. Seeing how they treat others is an indicator of how they are inside. How they treat an animal even more so.

For example, back when dating J, we went to pet stores. We wanted to purchase a ferret and eventually did. Not the point smile . The cute young animals. How people treated them gives insight into them. Some grab these defenceless fur babies, others basically ignore them, and others lovingly and gently pick them up and carefully caress them. Who demonstrates more empathy and love? if one cannot display it to a cute wee baby, it is highly likely they ain’t got it in them. They are still maturing or didn’t get enough hugs or whatever.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
That he has had very good times in that country but also really bad times. And, at one point, a very interesting question he asked himself out loud:
If I look back at the past 3 years, I'm 42 years old, how did I end up in such situation, that is not appropriate for someone my age.

Didn't really know what to answer there...so kept quiet.

When you really don’t know, just acknowledge his statement. I get it, often quiet seems like the best. Often times, it is not. I don’t think H is talking just to talk. He wants to be heard. He is looking for feedback. Looking to see if you are going to explode /yell or be understanding.

The other thing, he doesn’t necessarily need a solution. Just acknowledgment and letting him continue. In fact, limit solving his problems for him. You can guide a bit, and ask some thought influencing questions, which will likely keep him walking along just fine.

Remember, he is and will be far worse on himself than you will ever be. He is awakening to all his guilt and blame. No need to add to his pile.

Love the sinner, forgive the sin.

Live that. Demonstrate that. Your light will shine and influence growth.

Anyhow, that’s my starting view and ideas of things. The theory and background to keep in mind and help in figuring the direction you wish to travel. With that, let’s talk.

E: H, it’s nice having you home. I do enjoy sharing a meal with you.

H: Yes, you are such a good cook. My goodness I missed this good food.

E: Well thank you. And missed your company. (Nice body language and tone.)

(H eating)

H: You know I wasn’t alway happy during those three years.

E: I didn’t really know that. How was it then?

(And so on)

(Creative liberties aside. Eventually the conversation will move into more relationship territory.)

H: You know, I still care and feel you are still the girl for me.

E: You mentioned that another time as well.

H: Yeah.

E: Let me ask you something.

H: Sure

E: I’m thinking we could delay the divorce. How would you feel about that?

H: I’d like to. But I thought you wanted it.

E: Things are better at the moment and I’m willing to explore and see where this leads.

(And it continues)


Of course, it’s more on the fly. Just be authentic.

No matter how things start, at some point I think you just need to speak straightforwardly and just ask. That is the least pressure. It’s not tied to anything. Just a question.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I kept my calm at all times. We had a pleasant evening. I'm fully detached. When I look at him, I feel love, but I'm not in love with him anymore. For me this is the place I wanted to be in.

Are you able to lower your walls? Can you switch in and out of indifference? Can you turn it on and off at will?

You will likely need to be patient and at times indifferent, and at other times let your feelings show. Don’t fret, you will do fine.

I hope this made some sense. Ask anything you like. It’s been a very long day and I might be not as clear as I am hoping to be.

Take care

D


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Thank you DnJ for your kind email.

I really enjoyed your phrasing…trust me…H is definitely not there yet, whether it will ever come is the question, but that's his path, I need to keep following my own.

the past 4 days went extermely well, yesterday the first clash with S17.

However, the evening had started in a very good way. H and I talked for a long time.

He started talking about the M, then about the D. He wants to continue with it.

He wants me to be free as he can't give me what I'm entitled to yet, but he did say that I am the person he loves the most and that it always will be me.
The 2 relationships he had the past years have never worked out because he can't let go of us.
He also hurt those 2 people a lot. He was the worst version of himself in that country where he lived for the past year he said.

Can never forgive himself for the pain he caused everyone. He says he is depressed and that he doesn't want to live anymore at certain times.

About the D he also sees that it was only about a piece of paper and that if it must be we can come back together in the future, that this will not stop him if he can give me back what I want, of course if I haven't already moved on with my life with someone else. He wants me to be happy. I told him I'm happy. (which is the truth, with or without him)

S17 wants to punish his father for what happened. His behavior is very difficult at the past days.
He opposes to his father.

Of course I was also involved. H's immediately takes on the role of victim, as well as blaming me, I have not been able to control myself either unfortunately. (Is he feeling pushed in a corner?)

His reasoning is that he is superfluous here after all this time. That we are attuned to each other with 4 and that no one listens to him. That if he makes a rule, they won't follow it without my consent. That only my opinion counts for them. (which I must admit is correct,but I guess this is normm, the children have to get used to this situation again)

He wanted to leave today. In the end he didn't. This afternoon we will go for a long walk together. He had suggested this before the clash himself yesterday. Has just now agreed to still go. He wants to talk.

I am worried. Worried about the fact that maybe I shouldn't have let him come home yet, for the sake of the children.

This will be an incredibly difficult process, but I have to put my children first.
Will see how it goes the following days.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
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He also said he thinks I still have to much expectations, and that this feels like pressure to him.
F.e. If we talk about a movie he saw and I didn’t I would say, ‘OK, we can watch it this week’. I need to say, I’ll watch it, not we. For him this feels like ‘us’ and he can’t commit to ‘us’.

But in the end we’ll still watch it together, so what’s the difference…

So need to get my wording right 🙄😳

Last edited by Eagle3; 12/05/21 11:16 AM.

Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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Good Morning Eagle

Oh my goodness you are lucky.

A MLCer, especially went they are coming back, cannot help themselves spilling the beans. (Talking about what’s going on, in case you do not recognize the reference.) You are doing wonderfully. Just listen, validate, and H keeps filling in more and more details. Dig for patience my dear.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
He started talking about the M, then about the D. He wants to continue with it.

Ok. Let him.

Remember, believe nothing they say and only half of what they do.

If you would like to give ample time to see where this goes, let him do the heavy lifting. You cannot make him change his mind, you can only control you. And you can “not block his way”, yet not do it for him, all while still observing. See if his actions match his words.

In my opinion, his words and actions do not match. He’s at home. There is a part of him that wants to be there. He is confused and under a lot of pressure.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
He wants me to be free as he can't give me what I'm entitled to yet, but he did say that I am the person he loves the most and that it always will be me.

Pretty confused and depressed guy right there.

He is looking for you to make a decision for him. Do not take the bait. You make your decision for you.

To be blunt, get divorced for you if that is what you want. H, if he really wants a divorce, needs to find the will to do it. He needs to take responsibility for his decision and action. And the consequences that come from it. Note: Deciding to delay is also possible and has consequences and benefits for him. Interesting to consider if he will see that.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
The 2 relationships he had the past years have never worked out because he can't let go of us.
He also hurt those 2 people a lot. He was the worst version of himself in that country where he lived for the past year he said.

Can never forgive himself for the pain he caused everyone. He says he is depressed and that he doesn't want to live anymore at certain times.

Just look at all the information that tumbles out.

H is admitting things to you, which is actually admitting it to himself. He is also looking to see how you are going to react. And keeps giving you the option of leaving because he doesn’t feel he deserves forgiveness or compassion. And that stems from lack of forgiveness and compassion for himself.

This is an awakening. Hopefully, it will endure and H can continue its path.

Depression is the first major milestone/stage. H’s anger and hurt has been lashed outward towards you, parents, friends, the world; and he has run and frolicked with others in a futile attempt to stop his ceaseless pain.

None of that has worked. H has said it!

Now, his hurt and anger turns inward. And anger turned inward becomes depression. As deep and dark a depression as you had, times it by two or four or maybe more. A MLCers depression matches the depth of their crisis.

As H works through his depression; and he will if he has the strength and not too much external pressure; he will withdrawal. He will withdrawal from everyone and everything. From the world. He is now in a fight with himself. This is probably the most critical time in recovery. A MLCer has to walk this dark lonely path.

When they emerge, they will be different. A grown up person, still timid, ashamed, guilty, and such; yet matured. They will roll up their sleeves and go about repairing their lives and those around them.

A very brief summary of H’s mindset and possible/probable(?) outlook.

By the way, suicidal thoughts are very common. And if he is talking about it, that’s a good thing. He is getting his feelings out and letting them go.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
S17 wants to punish his father for what happened. His behavior is very difficult at the past days. He opposes to his father.

Of course I was also involved. H's immediately takes on the role of victim, as well as blaming me, I have not been able to control myself either unfortunately. (Is he feeling pushed in a corner?)

His reasoning is that he is superfluous here after all this time. That we are attuned to each other with 4 and that no one listens to him. That if he makes a rule, they won't follow it without my consent. That only my opinion counts for them. (which I must admit is correct,but I guess this is normm, the children have to get used to this situation again)

S17’s behaviour is pretty normal. A lad of 17 is already rebelling and pushing against his parent(s). Mix in H and son’s feelings regarding Dad’s indiscretions, and there is going to be some lashing out.

As best you can, keep out of this. S17 and Dad need to find their way.

And yes, after so many years, Dad’s voice and command is evaporated at home. In time, and with consistent demonstrated behaviour Dad will be listened to again.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
He also said he thinks I still have to much expectations, and that this feels like pressure to him. If we talk about a movie he saw and I didn’t I would say, ‘OK, we can watch it this week’. I need to say, I’ll watch it, not we. For him this feels like ‘us’ and he can’t commit to ‘us’.

Pressure Alert!

When his say too much pressure. Back off. Way off.

He told you directly what is hurting inside. He wants to and (for the moment) cannot commit to the concept of “us”. So, do watch your wording.

His lack of committing probably makes you hurt. Or mad/sad. Somewhat. However, his lack of committing is a good thing. It shows he knows what commitment is, and more importantly what commitment takes. And he wants to find it. Think about that. That’s pretty darn amazing.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
But in the end we’ll still watch it together, so what’s the difference…

Everything!

This part of H is irrational. It will not make rational sense. Yes, in the end you both watched the movie. H couldn’t watch it as a couple - even though he did. Take his words and actions with a grain of salt (another phrase you may or may not be familiar with, means don’t read too much in to it). His not doing it, and then doing it, is just a way of getting his emotions organized and sorted out.

You watch the movie. With or without H. And let H join you. See no pressure - from his viewpoint. Trust me, he brought up the movie, and he wants to watch it with you. He is just finding himself, his courage, and seeing all the regrets and pain he needs to work through. It’s hard to imagine just what these crisis folks are going through. Timid scared squirrel. And getting better, IMHO.

Have a great day Eagle.

D


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DnJ,

I understand, even more, I see through it now. The answer you wrote above, I could only read it after my afternoon with H because I was already out for a walk with him.
When I read it in the evening, everything fell into place.
This was what I applied all afternoon and indeed it works very effectively.
But I'm even going to say more. I've read this several times in the past, especially on another website, and then I didn't understand how to apply it. I've also thought several times in the past that he was on his way back but then I wasn't ready, I hadn't let go of him completely and he felt that this as well so that's why my tactics never worked.

Yesterday afternoon the 2 of us were gone for 4 hours, and it would have taken even longer if it weren't for the fact that we had to go back to the children.

We talked about everything. He was very talkative and I could ask whatever I wanted. He did the same to me and I answered everything honestly.

Yes, he still freaks out, still says a lot of inconsistent things, but bottomline, he talks.

Topics we talked about:

- 2 OW's
- His time separated from us whilst abroad
- My time separated from him while he was abroad
- Divorce (about child support and the pressure he feels that he always needs to provide money for the family, he knows he has to but this gives him so much pressure)
- Me checking out new houses
- His trauma's and his identity crisis (he acknowledges his running behavior, he only doesn't see yet that the R's with the OW's were also running behavior)

He was also very interested in my love life. I told him honestly that there is one man that is particularly interested in me, that I like him as well but that as long as I'm not divorced I will not go further, and even then that I will decide this for myself in the future.
Then he said: OK, then I don't have to feel guilt anymore if I want to start a new R. I told him no, when you are divorced you are a free man.

His biggest concern for me: that I hadn't let go of him yet. Well, after yesterday I have been able to decide for myself that I am certainly ready.
I finally let him go. And the bizarre thing is that he also noticed this very strongly. That is why he communicated so openly with me.

I have decided to proceed with the divorce and the further search for housing. If he comes closer, OK for me, if he doesn't, then I can continue on my own perfectly.

He had such a pleasant time yesterday he said he asked if we could go again next week on Sunday.
I said, sure, we can.

As you say DnJ:
Just listen, validate, and H keeps filling in more and more details. Dig for patience my dear.

This is what I'm doing and it feels the right thing to do.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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Hello Eagle

Originally Posted by Eagle3
His biggest concern for me: that I hadn't let go of him yet. Well, after yesterday I have been able to decide for myself that I am certainly ready.

I finally let him go.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I have decided to proceed with the divorce and the further search for housing. If he comes closer, OK for me, if he doesn't, then I can continue on my own perfectly.

Well done!

I am proud of you my friend. You are walking a most wonderful and enlightened path. Compassionate and forgiving. I can see how at peace you are.

I am very happy you are receiving so many answers, from H and yourself. Unless I miss the mark, you are about to discover a whole lot more answers from the latter (yourself).

Our deep answers come when we are most at peace.

(I get giddy at some of the things that come to me. Things that are all around us, yet we weren’t ready to see. Ah, that subjective reality.)

Originally Posted by Eagle3
As you say DnJ:
Just listen, validate, and H keeps filling in more and more details. Dig for patience my dear.

This is what I'm doing and it feels the right thing to do.

When we get all our cars - physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual - all lined up and moving along together; life is pretty fine. Great actually.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I understand, even more, I see through it now.

Precisely. We all require a certain level of understanding to let go and move forward. It’s kind of amazing when the pieces click into place.

Keep doing what your doing. You so got this Eagle.

D


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Originally Posted by DnJ
I am proud of you my friend. You are walking a most wonderful and enlightened path. Compassionate and forgiving. I can see how at peace you are.
I am very happy you are receiving so many answers, from H and yourself. Unless I miss the mark, you are about to discover a whole lot more answers from the latter (yourself).

Our deep answers come when we are most at peace.D

I can't agree more with this statement. I'm mostly surprised about my own path and the answers I found the past days. I think the fact he is around now shows me aspects I could not see when he wasn't there. Then I had assumptions, now I actually embrace them.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Remember, believe nothing they say and only half of what they do.
H is admitting things to you, which is actually admitting it to himself.
This is an awakening. Hopefully, it will endure and H can continue its path.
Now, his hurt and anger turns inward. And anger turned inward becomes depression. As deep and dark a depression as you had, times it by two or four or maybe more. A MLCers depression matches the depth of their crisis.
As H works through his depression; and he will if he has the strength and not too much external pressure; he will withdrawal. He will withdrawal from everyone and everything. From the world. He is now in a fight with himself. This is probably the most critical time in recovery. A MLCer has to walk this dark lonely path.
When they emerge, they will be different. A grown up person, still timid, ashamed, guilty, and such; yet matured. They will roll up their sleeves and go about repairing their lives and those around them.D

Just out of curiousity, where would you place him currently?
There is nothing of the extreme going on anymore at the moment. That's why it seems out of the normal. I would think he had an awakening but is still in replay, but this doesn't seem to match his actions.

He is even an nice H at the moment. I've never seen him so calm.
Calm to the children and to me, also very helpful.
It's like our roles have been reversed.
I used to be the pleaser, the follower, also the woman who ran the household, he almost didn't have to do anything. He was the man who lived for work, the biggest money provider.
He is back home since last week and now I come home from work, groceries have been done, he is preparing dinner, cleaning up, making tea in the evening, folding the laundry, etc.

I've never seen him do this in all our lives.

Understanding the mind of an MLC'er, what a challenge... grin


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Hello Eagle

Originally Posted by Eagle3
He is even an nice H at the moment. I've never seen him so calm.
Calm to the children and to me, also very helpful.
It's like our roles have been reversed.

They sort of have been. Well not so much reversed as seen.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I used to be the pleaser, the follower, also the woman who ran the household, he almost didn't have to do anything. He was the man who lived for work, the biggest money provider.
He is back home since last week and now I come home from work, groceries have been done, he is preparing dinner, cleaning up, making tea in the evening, folding the laundry, etc.

I've never seen him do this in all our lives.

Sounds like he was the stereotypical provider man. Work, bring home money. Then somewhere along the way, his usefulness got questioned (internally), he started questioning if that is all there is to life.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Just out of curiousity, where would you place him currently?
There is nothing of the extreme going on anymore at the moment. That's why it seems out of the normal. I would think he had an awakening but is still in replay, but this doesn't seem to match his actions.

Kind of funny when our crisis spouse is being calm we think it’s not normal. We are so use to their previous behaviours we do not know what to do. More accurately, we do not how to believe or trust their behaviours and intentions. Dig deep, and give time. Need to let H demonstrate consistent behaviour to slowly alter your perception and belief of his intent.

Where would I place him?

H appears to be finishing replay and well started into awakening. However, a lot of his current actions are congruent with the early stages of acceptance. As in worked through depression and withdrawal.

Just like the LBS, everyone’s really, the stages of grief and such, the delimitation between steps / stages is not sharply defined. Nor are the stages linear or happen only one at a time. We all are in multiple stages as we have emotionally accepted certain aspects and are still processing others.

In this, H is displaying some early acceptance. I remember you were worried about him and even suicide talk was heard from him. Pretty big hallmark of depression and withdrawal.

So, IMHO, H as exited some of his depression and even progressed through some withdrawal. He is like a teen/adult who knows he has been bad. He so wants to be forgiven. He is looking for how to do that. For he is looking to forgive/accept himself.

You are the role model he is watching. He is modelling after you. It’s not your roles are reversed; it’s that he sees your role. And is emulating it. He is growing up, finding emotional understanding, finding acceptance.

H is looking for appreciation and love. Even if he doesn’t yet realize that. He is letting go being rebellious and embracing being adult. Remember why MLC. H’s recovery means he sees meaning in life, accepts aging, sees his life’s work.; and when one can do that a peace and calm comes forth.

He is working to become.

Will he continue doing the groceries, making diner, cleaning up, and such. Most likely, especially if encouraged and appreciated. And he will then make those timid efforts a permanent change to who he is.

I place him currently at the cusp of becoming a better him - H new and improved. And he absolutely wants to. He is displaying that he can. As long as there is not too much pressure he should progress quite well along his path.

H has confided plenty with you. You have not berated him, nor blew up and crucified him. Remember how weakly he used to offer little tidbits of information? You listened, and he opened up more. He trusts you! Think about that. H is not displaying behaviour of one embroiled within replay.

As I said, we are all multi-staged. H is no exception. He has some parts of his journey that are less further along (like all of us smile ). He will display depression/withdrawal traits when dealing with those. Overall, he seems to be a bit beyond all that.

My reasoning is his discussions with you. No OW. His behaviour around you and the house.

Still, “us” is pressure. Relationship is pressure. Divorce talks is pressure. Well, not really. I think H’s pressure is considering not divorcing. Not divorcing means “us”. Therefore he looks the other way to divorce. That’s why he says what he says.

He actions do not match his current behaviours. A guy looking to divorce doesn’t clean up and get the groceries. Listen to his actions, not his words.

H’s confusion is heightened regarding things that are too much pressure. And divorce or not divorce (relationship) is a big one.

Anyhow, that where I’d currently place him.

In time, I think he is going to be even more comfortable in his new skin and will roll up his sleeves and get more involved and work on repairing what he destroyed.

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Thank you DnJ for your vision on his current path.


Would like to ask the following:

Did anyone see the drama series, Scenes from a Marriage?


Eagle


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Eagle3,

There was actually an extensive discussion on the Newcomer's Forum of a couple shows (Netflix's "Sex/Life" and "Marriage Story", ”HBO's "Scenes from a Marriage", and “The Killing of Two Lovers), but it reached 100 posts and there was never a follow-on.

Netflix (Sex/Lives) an Inside to the mind of a WW


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Thank you BL42.

Had a look at the thread just now.

I saw the series a couple of weeks ago. Thought is was quite good.

H is currently watching it…he ‘heard’ from someone it was worthwile.

Last edited by Eagle3; 12/10/21 03:19 PM.

Me(45)EXH(44)
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04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
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It was another interesting week with H.

He remains calm, I’m seeing a lot of the old H again, but also a completely different person, it sounds cliché because it is described that way everywhere, but it really is the case.

He also continues to do his share of all the household tasks and even more. Asks every day what he can do and everything is done effectively. He feels useful that way I see.

Every day he is starting to realize more and more.

Friday evening he had a very open conversation with S17.
His words:
He has openly admitted that he is a weak person, that his M (me) is a very strong person and that he must always treat me with respect because I have been there for them at all times. He didn't, he abandoned them during the most crucial stages of their lives, and that this is something he will regret for the rest of his life.

S17 has also shared his feelings, but is still cautious. I could clearly notice that.
He told his F that he is angry with him, angry because he abandoned them and caused us all a lot of pain, but that he can somewhat understand what happened with his F the past years due to the fact he is so unhappy.

They also talked about "the rooms" in his head, and S17 showed pictures of H where you can see very well how far gone he was at times (the typical shark eyes can been seen in several pictures). H was very confused when he saw those photo’s. It was exactly as if his soul was not present, this was also how he felt many times these past years, and sometimes still feels.

Also very talkative to me at different times. He has certainly already expressed his regret 3 to 4 times, and the realization that he has hurt me enormously is now finally there.

He feels that he is making progress but speaks of a very difficult period in his head. He realizes that he has said and done a lot of hurtful things to me, to the children and the family, but also to the OWs. The OW's did not have a fantastic life with him, as many think, but a period where there were very heated arguments because of all the lies and deceit. He admits to have an anger issues disorder for several years now and wants to seek help for that.

He slept in our bed twice this weekend. (asked if he could, I allowed it). These were very intense and beautiful moments. Fortunately I can handle it very well. The love for him is there, but I also realize that there are no guarantees, I can keep my feelings under control and have no expectations for the future.

Last night he suddenly came into my room, I was just asleep, he gave me a hug and said sorry again for everything I did to you. I told him, feel free to sleep here, but he declined. I didn't say anything more, don't want to put pressure on him at all. Afterwards I went into his bedroom to say that I have forgiven him, that I have done this for a long time and I gave him a kiss on his forehead. Then I left immediately.

The signing of the divorce papers is scheduled for tomorrow. This is given me mixed feelings but I know I have to persevere now. H is nowhere near full healing yet, he cannot give any guarantees, he wants to proceed with the divorce since he cannot give what a woman seeks in a man. He cannot make me happy for now he says. So in the interest of myself and the children, certainty is now necessary in case it goes back the other way.

I hope I can keep my emotions under control because it is a very crucial moment in the entire journey so far so wish me luck…


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Good Morning Eagle

Wow, H is certainly waking up towards so many things. And you my dear are doing incredibly! Well done, keeping your cool and being no pressure.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
He remains calm, I’m seeing a lot of the old H again, but also a completely different person, it sounds cliché because it is described that way everywhere, but it really is the case.

He also continues to do his share of all the household tasks and even more. Asks every day what he can do and everything is done effectively. He feels useful that way I see.

Every day he is starting to realize more and more.

I am sure H missed feeling useful. Interesting how they first run from all their responsibilities and then as they grow up, roll up their sleeves and dig back into them.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Afterwards I went into his bedroom to say that I have forgiven him, that I have done this for a long time and I gave him a kiss on his forehead.

I wondered when you were going to tell him.

H is working to forgive himself. His admission to the hurt and pain he caused, his talks with son, his regrets, and such. He is looking for forgiveness, his own and God’s. That’s a tall order.

You did very good telling him and leading the way. Showing H it is possible to be forgiven. Seeing that possibility is a huge mental shift within a person; to realize and believe they are worthy of forgiveness.

H has a bit of a path to trek first. Quite a few things to say and own up too. Many things to fix. And much self imposed pain to endure.

Generally, people do not know forgiveness. They do not know how to do it, and they do not understand it. The usual, and incorrect, principle is that the person needs to earn forgiveness.

Some folks seeking forgiveness get caught up in self inflicted demonizing and emotional flagellation. They punish themselves to atone for their sins and immoral acts. A kind, compassionate, and empathizing word will do much to help one along their path. More often, people may try. Realize the difficulties of self admonishment and then quit. Never realizing the futility of such a direction. For one cannot buy forgiveness.

Forgiveness is not for sale. Forgiveness cannot be earned. It is bestowed, often silently, by the one forgiving because of who they themselves have become, not because of who the one seeking forgiveness is or what they have done. For that reason self forgiveness is more difficult; one is both seeker and bestower.

I place H in the first category. Not too far into the self punishing path, yet he is seeking how to forgive himself. And he won’t easily quit. A very good thing. H will forgive himself because of who he becomes, not because of what he does.

Repentance is oddly not a physical action. Actions do influence the inner working though. And influencing a belief can change everything.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
The signing of the divorce papers is scheduled for tomorrow. This is given me mixed feelings but I know I have to persevere now. H is nowhere near full healing yet, he cannot give any guarantees, he wants to proceed with the divorce since he cannot give what a woman seeks in a man. He cannot make me happy for now he says. So in the interest of myself and the children, certainty is now necessary in case it goes back the other way.

A wise decision. Security and certainty are most worthwhile.

It is evident you still feel for H. You still desire a reconciliation. Divorce is just basically the business side of this situation. And strangely this does not negate a possible future reconciliation. You are just financially untangled.

Remain steady and calm. You have given this much thought and made your decision while clear-headed. That is one of the most important principles of divorce-busting. Act with purpose and logical reasoned focus.

Best of luck tomorrow.

D


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thinking of you today, Eagle xoxoxo


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D 12/23/16

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Successfully completed the 3rd week since H returned home.
This week H was again very candid, but you also see the depression and withdrawal come back, and he's trying incredibly hard to fight it.

Last Tuesday we actually signed the divorce papers. Within 3 weeks we are officially divorced. At the notary I was able to complete everything very business-like, my feelings fully under control. Of course H was totally unprepared, hadn't even gone through the papers. He just sat there and listened while she read through the document.

When we walked outside I joked that he was finally a free man, simply to brake that awkward moment, he hesitated, then answered this would only be in 3 weeks.

In the car on the way back we were both silent. My emotions took over there and I started to cry silently. Luckily we were home quickly and I told him I was going for a walk. He saw that I was crying and started to cry too. We hugged each other and I left. He wanted to join me but I needed time to myself. After a walk of an hour I had put everything back together. It is what it is. We have to move forward. And eventually I’m glad I signed the papers.

This means that soon H will no longer be H but XH. In the situation of about 2 months ago I would actually start to call him XH, but he is not XH today, he is XH but in his awakening. That is why I will apply DnJ’ tactic, from now on I will start calling him G.

XH is MLC H, G is MLC H during his awakening. I sincerely hope I can continue to call him G.

In recent days, G has had enormous difficulties in keeping his drinking under control. However, he realizes this and is now also talking about it. The realization that he has an alcohol problem, an anger problem and separation anxiety are very present.

Since this weekend, he's started talking about the fact that he's thinking about getting admitted. (I hope this is the right word)

His contract expires at the end of this month. He's been given a new, not very good job offer (I think because they want to get rid of him), and probably plans not to take it.
This means that he could be out of work from January 1.

That's why we talked about the fact that he is on a T junction. He is very aware of this but it is taking everything from him to make a decision. For us this would be very clear, for a person in crisis this is hell.

It can go 2 ways:

- On the one hand, not accepting the job, after all, he has been employed there for 3 years now and has never liked it, and in addition, he can work on his problems with the help of third parties.

- On the other hand, he can continue with the job, and may or may not seek help, but there he has a greater risk of not taking any steps forward and stay in limbo.

It's up to him to choose which way to go. The coming weeks will be crucial in this aspect.

I also wanted to share with you something about the OW’s. What really struck me during the open conversations I had with him is that the fact that they are together with an OW, it is the OW itself that shows and learns a lot about themselves. It's just as if the OW is helping them bring out their demons and show them who they really are.

I can't explain it but the fact they say the affair has to run its course, I'm starting to understand this more and more. Strange to say, but apparently it also has a purpose.

As for myself. I'm still coping well with the situation. I keep on listening, I’m the lighthouse to him (he even says this to me), I can deal with whatever he says and I’m also processing.

The only thing I have to guard against is the fact that there is an enormous physical attraction between us. Our intimate life has always been very intense and now that he lives back at home, that dynamic comes back completely, which is actually not advisable. He is still convinced that we cannot be in a relationship anymore. Too much happened, can't give what I deserve, children will have to be able to deal with new partners in the future etc.

I tell him I don't need him anymore, but that I’m there for him.

Maybe I should change my tactics here. No more intimate contacts and keep my distance, but in a good way? Any advice on that?

Last edited by Eagle3; 12/21/21 08:54 AM.

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Eagle,

I do not post in the MLC forum much because I am not a big believer in MLC per se. I believe every long term marriage has an MLC component to it where a spouse wakes up one day and says "is this all there is to life". Healthy people will work there way through it and unhealthy people will run searching for happiness.

What made me post was reading you say "change my tactics". There are no tactics to apply it's a journey that must be taken. There is absolutely nothing you can do to change the course of his direction and that is sometimes a bitter pill to swallow. I see a lot of cake eating which if you read my posts I am not a fan of. I also see you letting him off the hook for having affairs and destroying your family. Certainly your choice but I would want him to have to wrestle with that for a really long time.

If you are being honest and you have zero expectations then I think you are on the right path to having a potential friendship after the marriage.

Again just my opinion. I wish you peace and happiness.

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Good Morning Eagle

I like the usage of G.

To an outsider it may appear strange. Ha, this is a strange situation. G, XW - both exist within him.

It was little surprise that STBXH (soon to be XH) had not read the divorce papers. That seems to be such a commonplace behaviour of these crisis folks. Myself, I read every single word and clause, serval times before signing my agreement. I’m sure you did the same.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
In the car on the way back we were both silent. My emotions took over there and I started to cry silently. Luckily we were home quickly and I told him I was going for a walk. He saw that I was crying and started to cry too. We hugged each other and I left. He wanted to join me but I needed time to myself. After a walk of an hour I had put everything back together. It is what it is. We have to move forward. And eventually I’m glad I signed the papers.

(((Hugs)))

You did well and took care of the business side. The rest is in the hands of God. Live your life well. Such is a lighthouse.

G is considering treatment for alcohol, anger issues, depression, and faces a pending job decision. He is awakening to his life and the consequences of his choices and actions. That’s a tough thing to come to terms with.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I also wanted to share with you something about the OW’s. What really struck me during the open conversations I had with him is that the fact that they are together with an OW, it is the OW itself that shows and learns a lot about themselves. It's just as if the OW is helping them bring out their demons and show them who they really are.

I can't explain it but the fact they say the affair has to run its course, I'm starting to understand this more and more. Strange to say, but apparently it also has a purpose.

Well done!

The affair(s) are just a symptom of a crisis. However, the affair does serve a purpose. Consider, XH could have gone to counselling or something else. But no, he had an affair. He was driven towards it.

This does not excuse his immoral behaviour; it does explain it a bit. These lost souls are in torment and are looking for a key to their happiness. An affair is the easy answer. It never works! They have to look inside themselves and grow up.

Some affairs do remain and last. They grow up, both them and AP. The once symptom affair morphed along into a relationship. This is more in the minority of outcomes.

The affair, a symptom of the crisis, needs to runs its course. Just like the crisis needs to run its course. The affair partner is just something to take their minds off their torment. It’s more running from their pain than running towards this new partner.

Yes, an affair will bring forth more demons than it will quash. The AP being a mirror for the unfaithful to look into. The very thing they are trying to run from. Ah, trying. The predisposition to fail. There is a reason an affair is considered a sin.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
The only thing I have to guard against is the fact that there is an enormous physical attraction between us. Our intimate life has always been very intense and now that he lives back at home, that dynamic comes back completely, which is actually not advisable. He is still convinced that we cannot be in a relationship anymore. Too much happened, can't give what I deserve, children will have to be able to deal with new partners in the future etc.

I tell him I don't need him anymore, but that I’m there for him.

Maybe I should change my tactics here. No more intimate contacts and keep my distance, but in a good way? Any advice on that?

Some advice:

H actually calls you his lighthouse. OMG! Think about that. He aspires to your life.

He bemoans that too much has happened, can’t give you what you deserve, cannot be in a relationship, etc… This is all projection of his inner feelings. Negative and absolute. The two major hallmarks of depression and depressive thoughts/feelings.

Be the lighthouse. Live and love your life. Let him catch up.

“I tell him I don't need him anymore, but that I’m there for him.”

Perhaps, “I tell him I don't need him anymore, but I still want him.”

Or better yet, “I still want him.”

G wants to be wanted. Like all of us do.

G wants to be needed. Like of all us do.

Of course needy can be unhealthy; capitalized Needed as in codependency. The more lowercase needed/wanted/desired type thing is excellent.

“I tell him I don't need him anymore”, soften this a bit. G doesn’t need to hear it. He sees it. He needs to hear and see (and so do you) your desires, acceptance, willingness, forgiveness, and such.

Go slow. With no pressure.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Maybe I should change my tactics here. No more intimate contacts and keep my distance, but in a good way?

There is no OW anymore. Right? If she is out of the picture, then there is no cake eating. Be intimate. You are working towards a reconciliation. If you weren’t, you’d not be considering all these things.

G is not showing disrespect. He is making progress. He is talking openly. No need to alter your approach. It is working. Be patient. Dig deep. This is a slow journey. And you want it slow.

The divorce is signed. The business side is settled. The emotional path remains.

Act as if. Be with G. Encourage G. Have dinner together. Watch movies. Talk. Do your own thing. Let him do his own thing. Show trust. Build a relationship, slowly.

And when XH is around, leave him be. Not all cold turkey, just a bit less. Lol.

Eagle, G aspires to be better. He is not sure how, nor sure that he can be. His “being convinced” is really himself questioning himself. He is looking to you for affirmation. And that affirmation is actually for his desire and wanting of you and a great life, not for what he is actually saying.

And yes, it’s in that order. You and a great life. They circle back to that which they discarded, in the reverse order of how it all went down. Reconciling with first things, pets, children, then spouse. The thing they first destroyed and discarded is the last to reconcile with - themselves. Their life.

G stands upon the threshold of his life anew. Will he step into it? I hope so. Time will tell. For now, he is reconciling with you.

D


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I think I disagree with D here. He’s told you he can’t give you what you deserve - believe him! And I wouldn’t be having sex with him without him being tested for stds and using condoms.

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Merry Christmas Eagle

All the best in the new year.

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Good afternoon,

Hope you all had a nice Christmas surrounded by the people you love! smile

I just had a very lazy morning, on the couch, with a good movie. At least G was there again.
(last days XH was present)

LH, thank you for sharing your opinion. On your part, I understand why you don't believe in MLC and I fully understand that. I would have had exactly the same reaction in the past, partly because I am a very realistic person. But after what I have experienced in the last 5 years, the many articles I have read about this, consulting different psychologists, I can only conclude that I believe 100% in MLC.

You are correct to say that I can’t do anything to stop him from taking this journey. This is something he, and he alone, must get through.

I only decided to reach out my hand at a time when it went completely wrong for him. I do not agree with the fact that he is cake-eating. I decided to be there for him and I agreed with everything that has happened between us lately.

He destroyed his family at some point, that's true, and he only owes it to himself, he has to live with that, who am I to make him feel that pain and struggle even more, what kind of person would I be if this would make me feel better. I’m sorry, I really can’t do this.

But again, I fully understand your reaction, it's just something I don't stand for. It makes me stronger to deal with it the way I do today.

DnJ, thank you for your unlimited support, and Kml, thanks again for your honest advice.

Both of you are certainly not wrong. This has already become clear in recent weeks.

Obviously I didn't have S with him before seeing his test results. He had a blood test done about 2 months ago when he was in the country, and then asked the doctor to check for STDS as well. Apparently he was already afraid of this as he has shared the bed with more than 2 OWs in the last 3 years. He has told me everything the past weeks.

G struggles a lot with himself. Realizing how much he has destroyed, he lately retreats to XH again.

Before last week G was talking about getting admitted for his addictions, last week he wanted to try and solve it on his own again.

Drinking has increased enormously in the last week, his addictions are coming up one by one in full force. As I said there is a realization that he has an alcohol problem, an anger problem and severe separation anxiety, but now it has also become clear in recent days that he has developed a sex addiction as well, and I'm convinced he wasn't aware of that until I told him.
Where the intimacy between us at first was loving and tender, in recent days this turned more and more into a lust that I have never seen within him. He simply could not stop anymore so I had to end this at once as it is impossible for me to go along with this.

At one point it was so bad that several days ago I told him the truth about his addictions (also the S addiction) and that I decided to take a step back and just want to build a friendship with him for the time being. He has a very hard time with this and has been his 16-year-old self again.

However, I stand by my decision. I don’t put pressure in any way, I only set clear boundaries again. There are limits he must respect (for my well-being) and he must grow up now.

He has been realizing so much the past two months that I truly believe there is no way back for him. It is up to him now to face his demons and to move forward, if not, it will up to him but I don’t stand for the addicted person. With this person I do not want to reconcile.

This morning G was there again. I’m convinced he needed a few days to process.

I guess G and XH will be active again in the coming days.

Have to go now, up to my parents for a Christmas meal. They invited G as well.

Good day to all of you!


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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Good Morning Eagle

Originally Posted by Eagle3
G struggles a lot with himself. Realizing how much he has destroyed, he lately retreats to XH again.

He will cycle as he searches and progresses towards healed. This is a good thing. Remember back when he didn’t vacillate? When he was absolutely sure of his view of the world and the assuredness of his actions? He is questioning his own self. He is rewriting/restoring/returning to truth, his rewritten narrative.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Before last week G was talking about getting admitted for his addictions, last week he wanted to try and solve it on his own again.

Interestingly, with or without professional help, G is the only one who can solve it.

If you were wanting to encourage G, I’d gently shift his mind from “try” to “can”. Instead of G trying, G is doing. Try vs can. Mindset is everything. And positive encouragement and reinforcement is very powerful.

Enjoy the meal with your parents. Glad you are doing well.

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Originally Posted by DnJ
He will cycle as he searches and progresses towards healed. This is a good thing. Remember back when he didn’t vacillate? When he was absolutely sure of his view of the world and the assuredness of his actions? He is questioning his own self. He is rewriting/restoring/returning to truth, his rewritten narrative.D

Yesterday G came into my bedroom again. He wanted to talk.
He thought the dynamics between us had faded the last days and thought it was because of my expectations.
I told him that this was not the case at all but that I wanted to put some limits on our intimacy as agreed a few days ago. Why? From my side the intimacy is from a loving spectrum but it is purely physical from his side. (he confirmed this twice already)
He thought that I could see this from a physical side as well.
I said I'm not like that, not with you.

He then told me things that made sense and also didn't make any sense, such as the fact that he is again thinking about seeking help for his addictions and problems, about the fact that he loves me but that we have to let go of each other, that he can never love me the same way he used to.
That I have to let a new man into my life. That he is currently limbo and that I am now putting my life on hold for him and that's not what he wants for me.

A little later he said that he feels that he is growing back more towards the children but also towards me and that this is very confusing. He didn't think this would happen.

Furthermore, that he can not/will not be able to buy the house. He does not want to do this for me or the children because this is the house where all the sh*t happened and therefore would be better to sell.

He then initiated to be intimate again but I kindly refused and said it would be better to have a good sleep now and we would see what happens in the coming days.

As you can read 3 different views on things in a conversation of 15 minutes!

He also wants to completely change tack, done with being the big man with the big car and the big money, which makes him look better than he actually is. He is done with that because it only made him less happy.

I listen but he constantly asks for my opinion and then it is difficult to give the right answers because he is still very sensitive and fragile in certain areas.

What is f.e. a good answer when he tells me to move on with my life. Do I say, you are right and I am also looking for a new place to live in as we agreed, or do I say that I still stand for us, that I still love him but can continue without him perfectly?

Definitely not an easy track at the moment. Don't get me wrong, I'm seeing so much progress within him which is good but he still keeps pushing me away and yet is coming closer in so many ways. This makes it extremely confusing.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
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Good Morning Eagle

You can clearly see the battle within G. His polar views expressed as confusion and contradictory thoughts. Each of those views is valid and true - during the moments he is feeling it. Which would you choose to reinforce? To gently guide? To encourage?

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Do I say, you are right and I am also looking for a new place to live in as we agreed, or do I say that I still stand for us, that I still love him but can continue without him perfectly?

I’d be still. No decisions need be made right now. Be patient.

Let your actions demonstrate your answer.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Definitely not an easy track at the moment. Don't get me wrong, I'm seeing so much progress within him which is good but he still keeps pushing me away and yet is coming closer in so many ways. This makes it extremely confusing.

G is making progress. He pushes and pulls as he keeps progressing.

So what to say and do? A few suggestions (in no particular order smile ):

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I wanted to put some limits on our intimacy as agreed a few days ago. Why? From my side the intimacy is from a loving spectrum but it is purely physical from his side. (he confirmed this twice already)
He thought that I could see this from a physical side as well.
I said I'm not like that, not with you.

His confirmation of intimacy being purely physical - believe nothing they say and only half of what they do. G is confused! You said so yourself. You see it. Why would you think, and worse believe, that he has this part all figured out.

G is crafting beliefs, values, and convictions. He is strengthen some and discarding others. Just like what I encourage folks around here to realize and do. Thing is, G doesn’t realize the organizing he is doing. The incredible opportunity he is currently within. Thoughts and feelings reinforce or tear down beliefs. You are gently encouraging and guiding G towards positive aspects and values.

Along with intellect and emotion, physical action or lack thereof, holds power of influence upon one’s convictions. G’s wanting to be intimate is an expression of his desire. It is not all physical. And he is choosing you.

Now, I do not mean you should pump yourself out and have sex with him just because. However, you have already crossed that bridge - that “physical” bridge. If you enjoy it, do it. The positive reinforcement will serve both you and G. Do realize you are correct, G is more looking at this from the physical point of view. And your expectations and hoping for a more loving view, is causing you resentment. (Not a good or bad thing. Just pointing it out. And with knowledge comes power and choice.)

All reinforcements - physical, intellectual, emotional - all craft/strengthen one’s beliefs. This is what an awakening is. Awakening to one’s self. To one’s values. Then course correcting, and becoming better.

And by the way, sex will start out mostly physical, and then grows to emotional love making. G is at the start of that path. You are not.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
He then told me things that made sense and also didn't make any sense, such as the fact that he is again thinking about seeking help for his addictions and problems,

You: I think that’s an excellent idea G.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
about the fact that he loves me but that we have to let go of each other,

You: Yes, we were a bit too codependent.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
that he can never love me the same way he used to.

You: I’m sorry you feel this way. Realize you can love me a different way, maybe even a better way. What has happened cannot be undone. However, it can be built upon. You and I have grown and our relationship could grow and be better as well.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
That I have to let a new man into my life. That he is currently limbo and that I am now putting my life on hold for him and that's not what he wants for me.

You: I am willing to let a new man into my life. Presently, that “new” man is you - the new and improved you.

Remember, G will project much of his emotional self upon you. G, like all of us, sees the world through his lens. And people, usually default that others feel/think similar as them. His words give clues as to where he is at.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
A little later he said that he feels that he is growing back more towards the children but also towards me and that this is very confusing. He didn't think this would happen.

Another sharing of G’s inner most feelings. Sharing one’s confusion requires a level of trust. G trusts you. Do not think otherwise.

This view is a surprise to G. A welcomed one. A view he secretly hoped he could feel again. His timid steps towards it show both his understanding of the monumental task before him and how fleeting this all could be.

His telling you he didn’t think this would happen, is begging for assurance it is happening. Assure him. Reinforce this positive growth and behaviour.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Furthermore, that he can not/will not be able to buy the house. He does not want to do this for me or the children because this is the house where all the sh*t happened and therefore would be better to sell.

I figured this shoe would drop eventually.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
He then initiated to be intimate again but I kindly refused and said it would be better to have a good sleep now and we would see what happens in the coming days.

See how after G opened up to you; let out, and let go his confused viewpoints; G felt closer to you.

That scared timid squirrel is right there.

My dear friend, you now are gaining all the power. The MLCer first starts with all the power and all the decisions. A unilateral and unwanted decision is thrust upon the LBS. For those lucky few LBS, their MLCer awakens. For even fewer, their MLCer returns. And for fewer still,…, well that is where you find yourself.

You have done your inner work. You have forgiveness. And strength. And conviction, faith, hope, compassion, and such. And you have power and choice. G is slowly placing himself in your hands. He is starting to feel safe and secure enough to let you in. To let himself in.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Definitely not an easy track at the moment.

Agreed. Not an easy track for the moment.

Most times the best rewards require the best of efforts and risks.

You are one of the select rare few that has such an opportunity. You are most capable of exploring this avenue. You still have the gift of time. Patience and calm are allowing progress.

I know you are standing, dig deep Eagle.

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Good Morning Eagle

How are you doing?

How is 2022 so far?

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Good afternoon everyone,
Good afternoon DnJ,

Very kind of you to ask for an update. I haven't posted anything for a while, for various reasons. (busy at work, holidays, children have been home a lot and G who demands a lot of my free time)

It has now been 3 weeks since my last report and there are certain things that are now very noticeable. This is primarily due to a change in G's behavior, but of course also a great deal due to the fact that I have gained the upper hand in the whole process.

Your thread of the 13th of January in "A great Life," in other words your response to LH, is actually a perfect expression of how I feel about the whole situation today and how I'm dealing with it.

I'm doing really well. I have found a certain dynamic with G the last few weeks that I can relate to perfectly. We are building a friendship again and we do a lot of things together. For example, we go for a weekly walk and we have found a favorite cafe where we go afterwards to talk (sometimes 2 to 3 hours). We play a lot of cards, do sports or go shopping together, watch movies and series, make dinner together, etc. Sometimes that involves a bit more as already mentioned in the past, but this doesn't happen often. For both this is sufficient, this does not have to be for me today. I myself have found that I am not ready for that either, even if he wanted to, which is also not the case.

The processing of his MLC is very clear:

•He has bought books in which traumas from his childhood are central. For example, there is one book he is reading at the moment of which he says “that’s me on a T”. In this book he learns tips and tricks on how to deal and process his trauma’s. He even need to keep a diary and is obviously very protective of that. He has days when he reads a lot and is fully engaged in it, other days he spends a whole day in his couch, watching the same movies over and over, processing.
For example, last week he got up and said that for the first time in his life he had dreamed about his mother. That it dawned on him that on regular times, when f.e. his M and Stepfather had an argument, she gave the family the silent treatment for a whole week and that the tension was palpable and how he had suffered because of it. He had forgotten all this but this suddenly surfaced in his dream. He links all his problems more and more to his M.

•He also cut off all individual communication with her. Today he does not want any contact. He wants ‘to make her feel it'.

•He is going on a trip to the snow for a week with his old best friend (BF’s before MLC) soon.

•He goes for a weekly walk with his father. This contact was completely broken for the last 2.5 years and is in reparation modus, slow but steady.

I’m convinced he is in the last 3 phases currently, that is very clear now. You see a lot of depression in him, at times very withdrawn, then his alter egos are active from his past, but at many times simply the combination of the old and the new H.

That is why I like to put it this way.

- You have G, which is a combination of the old H and new H

- You have MLC H, his 5 year old, 17 year old or 40 year old him

However, you can see the phases in both personalities. And yes, the temptation is huge to stay comfortably in his fog, that much is clear. That is why the steps he is taking are going very, very slow.

Drinking is reduced but still absolutely present and necessary in his opinion. Since he sleeps very badly, he now sometimes takes a sleeping pill.

When MLC H comes up you can see that there is a strong awareness, he knows it, especially if you point out that he is going back. That's why I sometimes make fun of this and compare him to a character from a series which is now very popular on Netflix, named After Life with Ricky Gervais. If you can watch it, definitely do so. Then I playfully tell him “Tony (= the main character) is back”. Then he starts laughing. (these are things I could never do in the past years)

Now the main thing I have learnt as an LBS is that you have to stay calm under all circumstances and just have to give them time. This helps enormously and works for me 99% of the time.

I am not saying that it is always easy and that is why I also want to give an example so that it is somewhat understandable:

We were away for a walk recently, just had some drinks in our favorite cafe and I said something about his behavior in a certain situation. He said casually, ‘OW2 always said this as well that I did this’. Normally this doesn't bother me much, and I just let this pass but this time it had touched me a bit (I guess the few wines I had were working on my feelings 😊) and there was a certain disappointment in my voice when I responded. Wow, his reaction…this is then paradise for him when he is MLC H at that moment, and therefore a reason to start an argument. I would almost dare to say that he sometimes provokes it. According to him, this indicated that I still had much difficulties with the situation, then came up with the argument that he could no longer live under one roof with me because of my "expectations", while I had not said anything at all, only the disappointment that was somewhat audible. Back at home he started again and I firmly said that if he wanted to go, there is the door, and that I wouldn’t stop him from leaving, but also that I no longer wanted to have those relationship conversations with him. He immediately backed off, stopped the argument and agreed with me on the whole level.

As for GAL, I meeting my good (male) friend this Saturday for shopping and dinner. I know this friend from my childhood. We had lost touch with each other but have been in regular contact since last year. Nothing could ever grow out of our relationship, it is purely friendship, nothing more. G is aware of this and pretends to understand, but can't help asking questions about it regularly. He also always says that this friend probably expects more than friendship. I don’t really give him a lot of response on that.

Wow, longer thread than I expected...

Sorry if it's a bit boring but wanted to give as much information as possible.

Love to all!!

Eagle


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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Hello Eagle

I am glad to hear you and G are doing well. Busy. Yet well. smile

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Your thread of the 13th of January in "A great Life," in other words your response to LH, is actually a perfect expression of how I feel about the whole situation today and how I'm dealing with it.

Yay!

Originally Posted by Eagle3
It has now been 3 weeks since my last report and there are certain things that are now very noticeable. This is primarily due to a change in G's behavior, but of course also a great deal due to the fact that I have gained the upper hand in the whole process.

Yes, there comes a time when the power shifts back to the LBS. When the LBS gains the upper hand. Until now, it’s all been the MLCer and their reckless running that has held most of the power. Of course, that is somewhat an illusion. We only control ourselves.

Still, you do have the upper hand. Use that power wisely and very seldom. Equal and partnership is the goal. It’s a hard earned path for the LBS. And a journey of restraint shows much wisdom.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I'm doing really well. I have found a certain dynamic with G the last few weeks that I can relate to perfectly. We are building a friendship again and we do a lot of things together. For example, we go for a weekly walk and we have found a favorite cafe where we go afterwards to talk (sometimes 2 to 3 hours). We play a lot of cards, do sports or go shopping together, watch movies and series, make dinner together, etc.

That is wonderful!

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Sometimes that involves a bit more as already mentioned in the past, but this doesn't happen often. For both this is sufficient, this does not have to be for me today. I myself have found that I am not ready for that either, even if he wanted to, which is also not the case.

Go nice and slow my dear friend. You are doing fine. Great actually.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I’m convinced he is in the last 3 phases currently, that is very clear now. You see a lot of depression in him, at times very withdrawn, then his alter egos are active from his past, but at many times simply the combination of the old and the new H.

That is why I like to put it this way.

- You have G, which is a combination of the old H and new H

- You have MLC H, his 5 year old, 17 year old or 40 year old him

However, you can see the phases in both personalities. And yes, the temptation is huge to stay comfortably in his fog, that much is clear. That is why the steps he is taking are going very, very slow.

I agree, G is within the last three stages.

You have a very good understanding of the crisis and G’s alter egos.

Let him lead his pace. The fog is clearing, no doubt about that.

And slow is the speed you are looking for. Nice and slow allows G to reflect, learn, grow, and not gloss over or skip something and then have to repeat it.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
When MLC H comes up you can see that there is a strong awareness, he knows it, especially if you point out that he is going back.

That is a huge step of positive progress. Self awareness. Awareness of self. Incredible.

Just think and remember when H was quite incapable of such. I love seeing the healing that can happen. So blessed G is. And you my dear. (((Hug)))

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Now the main thing I have learnt as an LBS is that you have to stay calm under all circumstances and just have to give them time. This helps enormously and works for me 99% of the time.

AMEN!

That is some might fine hard earned wisdom right there! Hey, any you newbies reading along listen up to what Eagle is telling you. She’s walked the walk. She’s the real deal!

Absolutely, the MLCer is on their journey. We cannot speed it up.

Time.

It takes time.

You used and are still using your gift of time very well Eagle. I’m proud of you.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
We were away for a walk recently, just had some drinks in our favorite cafe and I said something about his behavior in a certain situation. He said casually, ‘OW2 always said this as well that I did this’. Normally this doesn't bother me much, and I just let this pass but this time it had touched me a bit (I guess the few wines I had were working on my feelings 😊) and there was a certain disappointment in my voice when I responded.

Wine and exploring feelings. You did very well to just have some disappointment in your voice, and not rip off his arm and beat him over the head with it. smile

Take it from me, guys lots of times just blurt stuff out. We are kind of dumb that way, or maybe it’s just being too straightforward. However, that level of blurting out requires an assurance of safety. A feeling of being safe enough to say such a stupid remark. Lol.

Of course MLCer H, one of G’s still being resolved alter egos, lashed out. Pure projection of feelings that he has towards his Mother and her treatment of him from long ago.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I firmly said that if he wanted to go, there is the door, and that I wouldn’t stop him from leaving, but also that I no longer wanted to have those relationship conversations with him. He immediately backed off, stopped the argument and agreed with me on the whole level.

Well done.

You can place a boundary on such argumentative talk from G, well MLCer H actually.

G knows and is aware enough to realize he crossed the line. Yet another good positive sign.

By the way, G is going to test those boundaries and your acceptance of him. And what he did. Even if his testing is mostly unrealized by him. He still needs the answer.

And what is the answer? Actually, it’s what is the question; which he is (unknowingly) asking himself? Does Eagle forgive me? Can she? Will she accept me, and what I’ve done? Then maybe I can therefore forgive and accept myself too.

It’s part of the process of healing. And piecing. And reconciling.

G is looking and listening. Be a stanchion, and a beacon.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Sorry if it's a bit boring but wanted to give as much information as possible.

Goodness no, it’s not boring. It’s rather exciting.

Have a great day.

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Good morning,
Unfortunately I have to conclude that MLC H has completely taken the upper hand again these past days.

This week I noticed another change in his behavior. Much more depressed, much less actions to work on himself, very selfish. And that after 7 weeks of very slow, but steady improvement.

Friday we went for a long walk as usual and afterwards we had a drink. On the way back, MLC H started talking about OW2 again. That he misses her. That he would never go back to that country to live there as he hates it but that he had a good relationship with her and that he wants her back.
One problem, she lives there, he lives here, and he doesn't know if she still would have him, not after the way he treated her. The strange thing is that I’ve heard exact the same story with OW1 2 years ago. Now he says that the relationship with OW1 was very toxic, and that this is not to compare with the R he had with OW2.

I reacted firmly to this that if he wants to be with OW2 then he has to go and can no longer live under the same roof with me. Obviously controlling MLC H came up immediately. All I think about is myself and I've had him come back to the house just to frame him because I want him back. I couldn't stay calm at that moment and started shouting that I'm tired of him projecting everything onto me. That I'm there because he was completely lost and that I only wanted to be there for him.

The consequences, of course, were not to be foreseen. MLC H went completely over the top once back at home.

This lasted all evening, the children were also heavily involved in this. The psychological humiliation towards me was out of proportion. In fact, for the first time in my life, I wasn't comfortable with him. He's never been so out of his mind before. The next morning the same. He didn't stop, and I asked him to leave immediately.

Of course even more accusations that this was also his house and that I had no right to evict him. He left with a lot of show. Not even fifteen minutes later a phone call. When I didn't answer an immediate message asking if I could please pick up my phone, because he wanted to apologize. I eventually did this and in the afternoon agreed to talk to him.

I told him that the situation cannot continue like this, not with the children who are too much involved. He confirmed this but also said that he wanted to continue living in the house for the time being, since he has nowhere else to go but that we could start selling the house otherwise.

You know that I made a list of conditions for his return home 7 weeks ago. One was that as from then on he always had to be honest with me, no more lies and he said that this was the reason why he had said that about OW2, but that he did not understand that I reacted this way, that this was a sign of expectations and that he'd been clear about that that he couldn't give this to me, and that's why he's completely lost himself again. That he projects everything he feels himself onto me, and that he throws out the ugliest things, that this is stronger than himself.

I had then agreed with him that the children would go to his father that day, so that everyone could get some space, I myself also went away with a good friend, he could then go back home, calm down and be alone. The next day we were able to continue in peace then.

When I came home in the evening, MLC H was already in his bed. When I was just in it myself, he struck again with all its violence. 1 obvious, but unspoken reason: Me having fun with a male friend, he sitting there alone at home. I should have known. He brought it up several times the day before, with the children present. However, the kids know this person and know that this is purely a friend and no more. S14 even said dad is jealous because you go out with a male friend, don't give in and go have fun. You do enough for him.

I just kept quiet, stayed in my bed and didn't elaborate on it.
He finally, after coming into my room 4 times to scold me, gave up.

The next day again apologies and regret for what he has done.

This really does feel like a split personality, like Jekyll & Hyde, I can't put it any other way. The worst part is that he had those dark eyes again when he went on like this. The last few weeks he really had his own color again, but this weekend they were really completely dark again. Extremely freaky.

The rest of the day was normal yesterday. MLC H is gaining the upper hand at the moment and I'm not comfortable with it. Only yesterday evening G was there again. We were sitting in the couch and he saw I was exhausted. He came to me, apologized again and gave me a massage, I did the same afterwards, he fell asleep and I left him and went to bed.

It's times like this that I have a really hard time going through with this. Not for myself, but for the kids. They see and experience things that they should never experience at that age. My guilt begins to mount. What if they later blame me for letting their father go too far?

I would be better off starting the sale of the house. What if the situation doesn't improve, then I can leave immediately once I've collected half the money.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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There is so much pain and suffering on this forum because both the WS and the LBS are living in fantasy lands. This goes on for years and years. Unfortunately the children suffer as well. Eagle only you can decide when enough is enough.

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Have you sat down with your kids and asked them how this is affecting them?

My D is 14 and I would hate for her to see her father be abusive to me and I think she would hate it as well ( his behaviors are borderline abusive ).

Why did you let him know your room 4 times to scold you? I would have locked that door.

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Good Morning Eagle

I am sorry G slid back into MLC H and lashed out so vigorously. Forward progress requires some backward movement as well, which is very difficult living under the same roof. For G, you, and kids. Not impossible. Just at times really trying.

Originally Posted by DnJ
By the way, G is going to test those boundaries and your acceptance of him. And what he did. Even if his testing is mostly unrealized by him. He still needs the answer.

And what is the answer? Actually, it’s what is the question; which he is (unknowingly) asking himself? Does Eagle forgive me? Can she? Will she accept me, and what I’ve done? Then maybe I can therefore forgive and accept myself too.

MLC H treated you horribly. Treated the kids horribly. And treated OW2 horribly.

G is realizing this. And that is a lot to forgive one’s self for. And a lot to accept. Two very different and specific paths.

The journey back starts with those least hurt, those least close and moves on to those hurt most and closest. It is the reverse order of how a MLCer leaves.

Making amends and realizations starts first with the those that will least likely blame the MLCer. Pets. Then friends, kids, and lastly their spouse. Along the way there are few oddity that also need to be resolved.

Property, house, memories. The things that were thrown away in the exit to their new life. Depending upon the significance of them, depends upon the where in the list of reconnection. G is reconnecting with the house. And all that it represents. Which includes memories and emotions of you, kids, marriage, and his unfaithful behaviour. Remember, there is plenty of progress we do not see. All churning away under his surface.

Another item to reconcile with is the affair partner. This is not an actual physical reconciliation, no it is an emotional acceptance. MLCers do feel bad for how they treated the OP. It is a precursor and indicator of what they will need to process regarding their spouse. G’s depth of sin and self blame regarding you is far deeper than OW2. He is seeing that, and testing the waters.

Withdrawal is an incredibly painful process. Do you remember your withdrawal over H?

The loss of romantic love, having it ripped away, the withdrawal is like heroin. We are so addicted to our spouses, addicted to the endorphins that before flowed so freely. That loss is is as painful and powerful as heroin withdrawal.

G is in withdrawal of OW2. He needs to purge her out of his system. The pull back is incredibly strong; yet his desire to remain seems to be stronger. Time is needed. And willpower. Each day the withdrawal lessens.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
The processing of his MLC is very clear:

•He has bought books in which traumas from his childhood are central. For example, there is one book he is reading at the moment of which he says “that’s me on a T”. In this book he learns tips and tricks on how to deal and process his trauma’s. He even need to keep a diary and is obviously very protective of that. He has days when he reads a lot and is fully engaged in it, other days he spends a whole day in his couch, watching the same movies over and over, processing.
For example, last week he got up and said that for the first time in his life he had dreamed about his mother. That it dawned on him that on regular times, when f.e. his M and Stepfather had an argument, she gave the family the silent treatment for a whole week and that the tension was palpable and how he had suffered because of it. He had forgotten all this but this suddenly surfaced in his dream. He links all his problems more and more to his M.

•He also cut off all individual communication with her. Today he does not want any contact. He wants ‘to make her feel it'.

•He is going on a trip to the snow for a week with his old best friend (BF’s before MLC) soon.

•He goes for a weekly walk with his father. This contact was completely broken for the last 2.5 years and is in reparation modus, slow but steady.

I’m convinced he is in the last 3 phases currently, that is very clear now. You see a lot of depression in him, at times very withdrawn, then his alter egos are active from his past, but at many times simply the combination of the old and the new H.

I agree, G is exiting the running stage and more in depression and withdrawal. There will be some backslides as he closes the door on running.

Folks need to hit rock bottom before they climb out. Before they make permanent changes in their lives.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
This really does feel like a split personality, like Jekyll & Hyde, I can't put it any other way. The worst part is that he had those dark eyes again when he went on like this. The last few weeks he really had his own color again, but this weekend they were really completely dark again. Extremely freaky.

Absolutely. It is so freaky. A person can display such a sudden and pronounced shift. Until one actually sees such a transformation it is hard to appreciate all that represents. Such proof bring much into vivid clarity.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I reacted firmly to this that if he wants to be with OW2 then he has to go and can no longer live under the same roof with me. Obviously controlling MLC H came up immediately. All I think about is myself and I've had him come back to the house just to frame him because I want him back. I couldn't stay calm at that moment and started shouting that I'm tired of him projecting everything onto me. That I'm there because he was completely lost and that I only wanted to be there for him.

The consequences, of course, were not to be foreseen. MLC H went completely over the top once back at home.

This lasted all evening, the children were also heavily involved in this. The psychological humiliation towards me was out of proportion. In fact, for the first time in my life, I wasn't comfortable with him. He's never been so out of his mind before. The next morning the same. He didn't stop, and I asked him to leave immediately.

(((Hugs)))

His torment regarding his mother came bursting forth.

His angry outburst, although completely misguided and upon the wrong person, is progress.

Rock solid boundaries my dear. Enact them!

G being under the same roof had some guidelines and behaviours he had to meet. Hold G accountable.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
It's times like this that I have a really hard time going through with this. Not for myself, but for the kids. They see and experience things that they should never experience at that age. My guilt begins to mount. What if they later blame me for letting their father go too far?

Strong boundaries will limit just how far their father can go.

I think your boys will not blame you. In fact, I believe they will, and do, realize the wonderful effort and example you’ve lived and are living. The incredible life lessons they were fortunate to witness.

I say this, because I am there. My kids have told me such.

In an odd truth and realization, there are times I wish my kids and I never had to experience this; those moments occurring fewer and fewer. We have been blessed and gifted with some very hard earned wisdom. My kids have witness some things that most people don’t even know exists. They have accepted, forgiven, and are living, thriving, and loving their lives. Just like their Dad.

- - - -

Eagle, hold G accountable for his actions. Not his desires, feelings, or thoughts. His actions, and that includes the act of yelling and belittling. Place boundaries upon disrespectful behaviour. An evening of psychological humiliation is far too much.

Yes, he was projecting upon you. And G needs to find a safe and healthy manner of which to release his pent up feelings. Perhaps during a moment when G can hear “Tony is back” you could suggest he go for a walk or the gym or some such, rather than going after you. However, it is not your job to fix him. Do not take on too much responsibility and ownership of his journey.

Enact boundaries where and when necessary.

As for the house. You know your situation best. Find your calm and center, your answers will reveal themselves.

D


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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LH, Ginger and D, thank you for your comments.

LH, I sincerely believe H is living in Fantasy Land, much less than he used to but still is.
I however definitely do not live there but I acknowledge the fact why you say this. I'm fully aware that I have the power in my own hands and I will use it when I don't see improvements anymore.

Ginger, Yes, I talk a lot to my 3 S's about the whole situation and they are very honest about their feelings. They struggle with his behavior, definitely the way how he acted last Friday. The strength however they have shown at that moment was incredible. Afterwards I talked to them and they don't want him to go as yet, because they see the difference between the past 7 weeks and the 3 years before that. It is however something that I must watch very closely and yes, you are right, children should never have to see abusive behavior towards their mother. He would never hurt me physically but mentally he has gone too far last friday. This cannot happen anymore and I have been very strict about that.

As D mentioned, I asked him that when he feels his anger and/or resentment is raising, or when I see it is coming up we will use one word which we agreed together, this way he knows he needs to just stop the conversation, go out of the house for a walk or go to his room, simply away from the place where the feelings araised. I hope this will help for the time being.


Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
03/22-Divorce official
06/22-08/23 Reconnecting
09/23-possible back with OW2
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