Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 11 1 2 3 4 5 10 11
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 361
Likes: 6
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 361
Likes: 6
Oh Eagle, this is all such hard stuff to navigate.

I too have been in a similar situation and have grappled with the same dilemma with regards to the children. Mine are younger than yours, however I don't think that changes the approach.

Some of what has carried me through my situation has been the thought that I will not feel this way forever. DnJ's 'feelings are fleeting' (ha! read his last post about the empty coffee bin distracting him from his dark thoughts about J leaving 4 years ago today).

So first, in this very moment in time, do nothing. Because anything you do or say to the children will be fueled by your feelings and not your rational brain. You need to process this information on your own before you can process it out loud with your boys.

Then, ask yourself if telling the boys: 'is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?' If the answer in your heart is 'no' to any of these questions, then don't say anything and keep waiting for a while.

I have some truths that I live by with regards to raising my children:

1. I don't believe in lying. To children or to adults.
2. I believe that children will ask the questions they are ready for the answers to.

If you hold similar values, then you don't say anything until the children ask directly, because they if they don't want to know, they will not ask. And when/if they do ask, listen very carefully to how they word their question. Your answer should only be in response to what they ask, nothing more. Maybe they say 'Mama, I think Dad has an OW' then you would ask them 'what makes you think that?' and listen to what they say. Or 'do you think Dad has an OW?' you might say 'I am not 100% sure.' <= Our instinct here is to continue on with '...but I think so' and that part can be dropped.

Be comfortable with silences and be comfortable with not having an answer right away (you were SO good to say 'I am not able to answer this right now' with S17-- it is always OK for any human to say to another person 'I need to think about that, I will get back to you').

In summary:
1. Don't offer information that is not directly asked for
2. Answer questions in increments, do not offer more than they are asking for
3. Attempt to protect your children for your children's sake, if you can do so without lying

I am sure that voices wiser than mine will chime in with different advice and I look forward to reading them. In the meantime, give yourself a big hug and lots of grace as you get through the next few days with this information.

(((Eagle)))

xx
Sage

Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 3,555
Likes: 78
D
DnJ Online
Member
Online
Member
D
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 3,555
Likes: 78
Good Morning Eagle

Love what Sage said.

For the moment do nothing. Allow your emotions to calm and for you to find your center again. Posting here and seeking advice does just that - well done!

Children do ask questions when they are ready for the answers. Age appropriate answers. That is the tricky part.

And telling the truth is best. Lying is a path that doesn’t lead to a good place.

Originally Posted by Sage4
Then, ask yourself if telling the boys: 'is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?' If the answer in your heart is 'no' to any of these questions, then don't say anything and keep waiting for a while.

Look to your rational mind, not your heart.

Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary?

Each questions gets harder to answer than the one before.

Is it true? Pretty easy, at first. How much truth does one provide? And realize there is no absolute truth. There is your truth and H’s truth. Explaining both does answer many subsequent questions.

Is it kind? True kindness has a long view. The moment may appear somewhat different than the eventual outcome.

Is it necessary? Emotional growth. Morals. Responsibility. You are a parent, a role model. The parent. The role model. You are tasked with raising responsible good men. There are certain necessities along that path.

Eagle, these situations are a quandary. Ask yourself why. Why is this such a quandary?

There are many facets to that answer. Age appropriate, shielding children, breaking implied trust of SIL, etc. All summed up, you have worry and fear of doing the wrong thing. Let’s assuage that. And clarify some things so you can see more clearly see your path.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
The whole family knows now, except for the children and me.

I feel very uncomfortable, for myself but definitely also towards the kids.

A difficult place to be in. “Officially” the whole family, except you and the kids, know. You feel uncomfortable living amidst that lie.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I can't tolerate anymore the fact he is lying to all of us.

You can tolerate more. You don’t want to.

“Can’t” robs you of your power. Do or do not. Will or will not.

There is very little that is truly “cannot”. If you decide on an action based upon the “fact” that you can’t tolerate this anymore, you give up your direction and control over the situation.

The “fact” is you are deciding that you won’t tolerate this lying anymore. You are going to stand up, be the role model, and lead you and the kids forward. Look to what you can do; not to what you feel you can’t.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Do I need to tell them? They've asked and I told them I don't want to share the information right now but that I would think about it.

Is it OK to tell the children that the suspected relationship their father is having is for real and that the family is aware of it?

S20 came over yesterday afternoon. He stayed overnight for today’s Thanksgiving visit and supper with the rest of the family. So while making supper for just him and I, I asked his opinion. S20 was S16 at BD, so pretty close in age to your boys currently.

His advice, is to tell them. And tell everything. Age appropriate with no over-the-top details obviously.

Be factual and open. You can and should explain cheating, immoral behaviour, adultery, and so on. They have questions and need answers. It’s our task to raise our children to be responsible healthy stable adults. And that doesn’t happen without some guidance. That needed guidance will come from elsewhere if you do not provide it. It is best if you have a hand in it.

My son listed off his friends, and yes, half of the families are divorced. Some are doing pretty well, and some families are complete disasters. The latter group has many commonalities. The main common theme is lying. Covering up the truth.

In one particular family, the uncle has had sex with all the children of his family. All the uncle’s sibling families, except my son’s friend’s mom and dad were covering it up when this news came out. They strongly urged and pushed this matter to the police. And now son’s friend’s family is black-listed and ostracized by the rest.

However, son’s friend is doing good! He is healthy and has parents that stand up for proper morals and values.

S20 assured me (and you) that 17 and 14 is older than you think. Having the full story of what is going on just under the surface all the time, having it hidden from you, is not helpful. They know something is going on and are kept in the dark. Getting the facts and details will hurt and will heal.

Son then said something that totally convinced me that I did right. He said, we are the rare ones.

I agreed, recalling how XW/Mom went nuclear and blew up our lives and threw everyone away.

No, he said, the rare part is now. Where you are.

Huh? I admit I was taken aback. Stunned. What do you mean? I asked.

Son elaborated. You are happy. I am happy. Having all those sordid and immoral details out in the open, seeing how you handled them, the kindness, the morals displayed by you. Where you and we are now. Most don’t get here because they don’t have the facts and details of what happened.

OMG! To have been told so directly.

Children are a product of our marriages. In that, they are part of our marriages. They are, therefore, part of our divorces.

Do not neglect the most important parts of our lives. That is you and the children.

I followed up and ask several more questions. Clarifying my son’s view. We discussed for quite some time. Would it have been better to hide or not have had some certain details. Son considered for a time and - No. That was a rational absolute assured answer from a brilliant quantum physicist. I’d place a lot of stock in his hands. Heck, I’d place my life in his, or any of my children’s, hands.

Trust is the bases for everything that follows. Or lying can be.

Turns out we are listened to, followed, a role model, an example, far more than even I believed. Trust, respect, kindness, compassion, understanding, empathy, acceptance, forgiveness, love, joy. Live the good tenets.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I know 1 of them will break all contact as well. He told me several times in the past he would not tolerate this in his life when he knows for sure.

I personally want to go NC with him, have done enough and can't bare his BS anymore about his FOO's and depression etc.

Then we have the fact that SIL told this in privacy, I don't want her to get in trouble.

How do I deal with this?

Let go the fear and do the right thing.

Tell SIL you know about the pictures. Tell her you are going to inform the kids. And, as my son even said, let the chips fall where they do.

In the end, if maintaining a relationship with SIL requires covering up and keeping things from your children, it is not worth it.

Your boys have directly asked you. Do not exaggerate or embellish Dad’s pursuits. Do not demonize Dad. Do not down play his behaviour either.

Lead and be a beacon towards: Love the sinner. Forgive the sin. And all the other steps along the way. (((Hugs)))

D


Now: Me54 XW51 S25 S23 S21 D19

Oct 8/17-BD, Moves in w/OM, Leaves Kids
Me49 W46 S20 S19 S16 D15
M26 T29
Dec 9/17-Legal Separation
Oct 3/18-W Files
Apr 6/19-Divorced

Love the Sinner, Forgive the Sin.
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 320
Likes: 15
E
Eagle3 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
E
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 320
Likes: 15
Hi Sage, Hi DnJ,

Difficult night and day. Emotions went all over the place, luckily it was busy so could remove my thoughts regularly.

Love your post Sage. I indeed have exactly the same values.

I'm glad that I was able to feel my out of control emotions and to accept them, and above all, simply do nothing with them, but to vent here first and listen to all of your wise advice.

And the truth is, after reading your posts, I truly feel more at ease and I know what to do.
will only wait a few more days, just to be sure.

DnJ, I'm so greatful you've asked S20's opinion. You can't imagine how important this is to me. This is someone who went through it, and the fact he is giving such a wise answers means you handled it so well.

I'm thinking of translating your S20's feedback and to explain it to the children. It will mean a lot to them knowing they are not alone facing these horrible situations.

So, please thank him for his open and trustworthy vision.

In the meantime I made the draft of the divorce papers by mutual consent. (didn't have to amend a lot since this was already prepared last May)

I have giving him one month to find a loan for the house, otherwise we'll start with the selling.

The e-mail I sent was short and businesslike.
Hope he'll answer in a positive way.

xxx


Me (44) H (42)
M:15 T:19, S17, S14 & S14
04/19 - 02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20 - 11/21 OW2
10/21-01/22 Short awakening
02/22 Back in Lalaland - OW2 exposed
I let go
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 320
Likes: 15
E
Eagle3 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
E
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 320
Likes: 15
FYI, he replied in a businesslike way, same as I did.

Simply said, will read through it tomorrow and sign if all ok.

Guess he really wants this divorce now.
He’s never been more sure.
And this after almost 3 years in replay.

I have a weird feeling about his words,
didn’t expect this but is for the best I guess.


Me (44) H (42)
M:15 T:19, S17, S14 & S14
04/19 - 02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20 - 11/21 OW2
10/21-01/22 Short awakening
02/22 Back in Lalaland - OW2 exposed
I let go
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 3,555
Likes: 78
D
DnJ Online
Member
Online
Member
D
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 3,555
Likes: 78
Good Morning Eagle

It is interesting H answered your businesslike email so quickly.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
Guess he really wants this divorce now.
He’s never been more sure.
And this after almost 3 years in replay.

There is nothing particular to read into H’s response; just that he was feeling like it was the right thing to do in the moment.

Remember H isn’t rationally uncoupling his reinforcement like you are. Most everything he does is emotionally driven. That’s something to remember when negotiating or conversing with him. H will not behave or negotiate rationally. It requires a certain timing and finesse to find resolution with an emotional and irrational person. A bit of luck certainly helps too. smile

Originally Posted by Eagle3
I have a weird feeling about his words,
didn’t expect this but is for the best I guess.

I’d have been surprised if you didn’t have a weird feeling about all this. Your response is perfectly normal and healthy.

Let those feeling subside and purposefully reinforce your rational view. I bet you will no longer “guess” about this being the best course of action. (By the way, “I guess” is from your emotional response rising and producing those self doubts.)

And, “is for the best” is a matter of perspective. It is what it is. “Best” will be what you make it.

We all play the hand we are dealt. Best, comes from how we play the hand.

Better not bitter.

Be the best you will be.

You’re doing just fine my friend.

D


Now: Me54 XW51 S25 S23 S21 D19

Oct 8/17-BD, Moves in w/OM, Leaves Kids
Me49 W46 S20 S19 S16 D15
M26 T29
Dec 9/17-Legal Separation
Oct 3/18-W Files
Apr 6/19-Divorced

Love the Sinner, Forgive the Sin.
DnJ #2924848 10/12/21 07:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 320
Likes: 15
E
Eagle3 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
E
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 320
Likes: 15
Originally Posted by DnJ
It is interesting H answered your businesslike email so quickly.
Remember H isn’t rationally uncoupling his reinforcement like you are. Most everything he does is emotionally driven. That’s something to remember when negotiating or conversing with him. H will not behave or negotiate rationally. It requires a certain timing and finesse to find resolution with an emotional and irrational person. D
And DnJ is right again… grin
Yesterday I got a reply from H.
And that was a lot less businesslike.

His reply on the document leaves little to the imagination. Manipulation at its best.

I have an appointment with a mediator tomorrow, but I also want to hear your opinion on how to answer.

His biggest problem: paying alimony for the children. In my country this is calculated on income, and H is making a lot of money right now. Also when he comes back I have an idea of what he will earn and the alimony he pays today is even just a little less than it should be. (and that is calculated on the absolute minimum he is going to earn, my guess it will be more but I’ve calculated with worst case scenario) H is not aware of this or does not want to see this at all. He honestly believes he is paying way too much.

During our conversation last week, he again asked week/week custody for the children. The kids don't want this. They want to start with 1 weekend every 2 weeks. I told him that he should talk about this with the children why they don't want this, he refuses and then said that he was going to take into account what they wanted. Judging by his answer now, this is no longer the case at all. I will word it differently. H abuses this to pay less alimony.

Described in detail in the document:
Me: When H effectively moves back to home country and buys in the house, it is possible to switch to a custody arrangement of 1 weekend every 2 weeks with the father, to be mutually agreed.
His answer: This has been drawn up one-sided, this without my consent. I do not agree.
Me: Alimony for 2021 has already been paid until 31/12/2021. From 01/01/2022 alimony will need to be paid again, the same amount as today, being XXXX/month or XXXX/year.
His answer: This is the amount that was "agreed" on the basis of the current salary. In home country this is neither feasible nor compliant at all. Since visitation arrangements were drawn up unilaterally, no input was given on alimony. Spouse's proposal is 1 week per 2 in which no alimony is required. If the wife wishes to unilaterally refuse this, then alimony discussion must at least be discussed and adjusted.

Do you see what he's doing? He tries to put it in my shoes that I don't want a week/week and tries to manipulate to pay less alimony.

Any idea how best to respond to this?

1 day later and I have already received a text message from him, however I still left it unread. But saw that he put: "Since no answer can I assume you will make changes to the document?"

The child is starting to kick around in the wild.

I can only state that he is clearly losing his grip on me, and he knows it.

Last edited by Eagle3; 10/12/21 07:52 PM.

Me (44) H (42)
M:15 T:19, S17, S14 & S14
04/19 - 02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20 - 11/21 OW2
10/21-01/22 Short awakening
02/22 Back in Lalaland - OW2 exposed
I let go
Eagle3 #2924854 10/12/21 08:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,496
Likes: 210
K
kml Online
Member
Online
Member
K
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,496
Likes: 210
Child support - alimony is spousal support.

In the US, he would owe child support based on the difference between his income and yours - and yes, if 50:50 custody was arranged, then he would not owe child support. But since he's not even in the same country right now, he obviously can't have 50% custody. In our country, adolescents the ages of yours would also have a say in which parent they wanted to live with.

As for spousal support - if he makes significantly more than you do, shouldn't he owe you spousal support as well? This helps to make up for the difference in income between a parent (him) who was able to pursue their career to the fullest extent, and a parent who worked less, got fewer promotions, or pursued a less lucrative career in order to run the household and care for the children. If your incomes are similar, then this would not be an option.

I'd run all such discussions through your attorney. Walkaway fathers are almost always perturbed that they actually have to pay for the privilege of nearly abandoning their family.

Be prepared, though - if he would make much less money in your current country, he might try to come home and work there just so his income looks worse so that he can then get a divorce decree that orders him to pay less. Don't fall for any of the manipulation, let your attorney handle these things. Even if you are doing mediation, you may need your own private attorney to handle communications and look after your interests.

Eagle3 #2924864 10/13/21 01:02 AM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 3,555
Likes: 78
D
DnJ Online
Member
Online
Member
D
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 3,555
Likes: 78
Hello Eagle

Yep, H is reacting. You can clearly see the attempt at manipulation. Do not take the bait.

Talk to a lawyer. Talk to a couple of lawyers. Then hire the one you are most comfortable with and let them handle the matter.

Divorce has only two key items: Children and money. Most of the time for emotionally troubled spouses it’s money then kids. My XW was a rare one, her push was freedom.

Anyhow, children and money gets split up in custody and asset separation.

Custody has two parts. The first component is the actual living arrangements and/or visiting arrangements. One week at one parent, the next week at the other. And so on. With Christmas and special holidays alternating years. That is just one example of an arrangement.

Living/visiting arrangements range from simple to cumbersome, depending upon lots of factors. The most contentious factor is the soon to be ex spouses not coming to a reasonable arrangement. That being said, do not back down or give up custody.

Custody starts at the default of 50/50. That assumes both parents live close to one another and the kids actually want to live with both parents. You see kids over the age of 12 usually get a say in where and who they live with. If I recall in your country the kids voice is not listened to in court. Still, a couple of 14 year old boys and one 17 year old boy will make Dad’s life h3ll if they do not want to be there. Regardless what the courts demand, your boys will get the last say - one way or another.

The main legal reason is H not living within a close distance to the boys’ home. However, it looks like he might be working to change that.

The second main thing regarding custody comes after the living arrangements. That is child support. The money paid from one spouse to the other for the care and upbringing of their offspring.

Anything other than the default 50/50 arrangement has some manner of financial compensation. Basically, the parent that is not looking after the kids for half of the time pays the other parent.

As I said, the default is 50/50. In that scenario neither of you would pay or receive child support for care and upbringing. The day to day life expenses like food and such would be covered during the kids time under each of your roofs.

Larger expenses like university, grad dresses, music lessons, and such - those joint-type expenses - usually get split according to percentage of each spouse’s salary.

This leads into alimony. And the start of the splitting of the marital assets.

Alimony is a financial compensation paid to the spouse who earns less than the other. This is based and reasoned upon what was once considered family/joint income. It is an attempt to maintain a close to similar lifestyle as before the divorce.

Alimony is not gender specific. If the woman earns more then she pays alimony. If the man earns more he does. If both earn equal there is no alimony.

Next up, joint accounts, which are split 50/50.

Then the major items: House(s), cottage(s), vehicles, boats, etc. Basically all split 50/50. This can be in the form of either spouse buying out the others share or selling the item and splitting the proceeds.

The last is debts. Again, split evenly. House mortgage is a pretty common one and usually gets paid out with the sale of the home and the extra money is then halved to each spouse.


Now, the finesse part. The negotiating part.

Everything, aside from a couple of legally binding items like child support, is negotiable. Any manner of arrangement can be made if both side agree to it. People can even waive their rights to property, accounts, home, custody, whatever. If you both sign the dotted line it becomes binding.

Caveat: The divorce still goes through the courts to ensure non-forced and willing participation and agreement to any negotiated settlement to protect both parties.

This negotiating area is where and how you achieve better than 50/50 custody for example. You’d say give up some savings or lessen the payable alimony for full custody. By the way, that’s just an example.

This is sad and difficult to realize that one parent/spouse is willing to sell their time with their children for cash. It’s a hash reality, that works in your favour.

Of course, that require finesse. You need to understand and realize what H is after.

He sounds like he is looking for more custody, so to only pay less child support. He will not likely come out and be that blunt. However, he probably will drop lots of clues as to what he is really after. By the way, it’s most likely money.

So, offer your one weekend every two weeks and some kind of cash. I found immediate cash payout is more desirable to the MLCer spouse than a deferred monetary consideration. If H goes along with the only one weekend idea or you get full custody, he can have such and such savings account. And the car. Or 20% off alimony or whatever.

As I said, just an example. The big picture is complicated. And yet simple. The house is a huge asset and a big bargaining chip. You have rights to half of it. If H wants the house, your signing it off has a significant value to it. And you understand and realize deferred value and custody value.

Please listen, do not go this alone. Get a lawyer! Listen to them.

Remember, H is irrational. What he feels is a good deal and what you think is a good deal are going to be different. Funny thing, sometimes, what H is wanting so desperately you actually don’t care about. And what he is willing to pay for what he so much desires is actually what you really want. Think kids and money.

My XW gave up, sold, her children, house, cars, dogs, yard, everything for a lump sum of quick cash. No alimony from me. I had full custody. She just wanted out. She was completely driven to it.

It hurt like h3ll to sign my divorce. I actually cried at the lawyer’s office. Such a one-sided deal. Such a lost and tormented soul W became. I place my DnJ upon the dotted line. I knew it was a good deal. It sure felt horrible though.

Some advice: Negotiate with your head not your heart.

Discover what H truly is after and what he is willing to pay for it. Might be pretty surprising.

How you do that. Listen. Just listen to H. Each of you will send, back and forth through your lawyers, offers of divorce. H most likely will side negotiate as well. You just listen and do not tip your hand. He will split the beans.

For right now, seek a lawyer. Tell the L the arrangement you and H had talked about a few days ago. L will probably have further ideas and items not thought about. (Oh my, you’d not believe how many rights and legal things are involved. My divorce is like 53 pages and it was basically everything to me for a bag of cash.)

Anyhow, I believe you were actually pretty ok with your arrangement. Have L draft a formal offer based upon those ok arrangements. Then send it to H’s lawyer. If he doesn’t have one, have your L contact H and ask for his legal counsel’s contact information. If H accepts the offer, well that’s that. Otherwise he will return an offer to you. And then you accept or reject. And so on and so on.

The big thing, stay out of his drama. Be business-like. Ignore his manipulation attempts. If H come with serious, polite, reasonable conversation, then sure listen. Otherwise, talk to my lawyer.

Just my two cents.

Well ok, more like six or eight cents. Lol

D


Now: Me54 XW51 S25 S23 S21 D19

Oct 8/17-BD, Moves in w/OM, Leaves Kids
Me49 W46 S20 S19 S16 D15
M26 T29
Dec 9/17-Legal Separation
Oct 3/18-W Files
Apr 6/19-Divorced

Love the Sinner, Forgive the Sin.
kml #2924865 10/13/21 01:04 AM
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 926
Likes: 50
B
Member
Online
Member
B
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 926
Likes: 50
Originally Posted by kml
In the US, he would owe child support based on the difference between his income and yours - and yes, if 50:50 custody was arranged, then he would not owe child support.
Not necessarily true. In many states, including mine, even in 50/50 arrangements the "more monied spouse" pays child support. That's how my ExW had an affair, divorced me, and still gets monthly checks from me even though I watch the kids at least as much and usually more than her. What a system. In your case though it's your H who's the bad actor and makes more so depending on where you live you'd get child support even if you eventually go 50/50...consult a L on this!!!


Me:39 Ex-W:37
M:7 T: 9
S:6 D:3
BD/IHS/Confirm EA/PA: Feb '20
OM1 affair ends: May '20
W/OM2 & moves out: June-July '20
W files for D: Jul20
OM2 confirmed: 9/2020
Divorced: May '21
Eagle3 #2924867 10/13/21 01:16 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,496
Likes: 210
K
kml Online
Member
Online
Member
K
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,496
Likes: 210
D- she's not in your country or mine, I don't think, so divorce laws may be a bit different where she is.

But it seems we all agree that you need a lawyer and don't negotiate this directly with him - he's just trying to figure out how to cheat you out of your fair financial share, and/or how to drag this out so he can keep you as Plan B and avoid dealing with the consequences of his infidelity.

Page 3 of 11 1 2 3 4 5 10 11

Moderated by  Cadet, job, Virginia 

Link Copied to Clipboard