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As I read through the forums on Divorce Busting, I like to grab the nuggets of gold and share.

My advise, commit to personal growth. What you judge in others, you condemn in yourself. Take all the focus off of your spouse and address your own issues. How hard is it to change your own behavior? Now think how hard (almost impossible) to change someone else.

If you have kids, commit to being the best parent ever. Frequent and equal contact with both parents is important. You are responsible for your relationship with your kids. Let your spouse be responsible for their relationship with the kids. Learn new ways of parenting. Lots of great books out there. Most of the relationship skills dealing with spouse will also help in parenting.

Set goals for the future and keep taking steps to get there. Do this in all areas (SPIES - Social, Physical, Intellectual, Emotional, Spiritual.) Get in alignment (Beliefs, Thoughts, Body Language, Tones, Words, Actions) with your core values.

Try new ways of interacting. Read about boundaries and learn how to set and enforce them. Be in the present. Let go of the past and do not fear the future. Learn ways of being more attractive, especially in your behavior. Learn ways of being seductive (indirectly attracting). This is an extremely important set of skills to understand.

The best way to respond to a particular event? Initially, the best action to take is no action. Do your homework here. Do not react emotionally. Stay neutral. Seek wise council here. Evaluate all the different options and the possible outcomes of each. Challenge your current beliefs. Make a choice and live with the consequences, good or bad. Things are predictable. Read and read and read. Get mentally ahead of your spouse in the whole process ASAP, they are ahead right now.



As far as your spouse, until you have enough info to prove this wrong, assume there is another person (Hint: This is your first 180). Do not reveal anything about what you know and how you found out. "We both know that is a lie." is a great way to deal with any deception.



I wish everyone well during these difficult times. Remember that everything will be OK no matter what the WAS chooses.

"You can handle it"-Coach

Books:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061094#Post2061094


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My Sitch:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061092#Post2061092


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Sandi2 has been such a great support person and has not logged in since 2021-03-22. I am hoping for the best but fear we may have lost her. I will be reading through her threads to understand her story better.

Sandi2 (18,666 posts)
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showprofile&User=16397


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1116410

Originally Posted by Sandi2
I never had a problem with age until this birthday. The big #60 was fast approaching and I was not dealing with it very well. My marriage of 41 years was dull, boring, sexless, and none of my emotional needs were being met. My H never was one to communicate...just wanted to watch tv all the time....no hobbies, recreaction.....nothing for fun...nothing...period... and after the first 25 years, I finally gave up.

I still tried to find things to fill the void in my life just as I always had befoe, but then I got Fibromyalgia and the stuff I went through with it would be a story within itself. However, the thing is this....out of boredom and lonliness I turned to playing games on the internet and those where you can chat with the person you play with. Then I began to flirt with them. What harm could it do? They were on the other side of the world and I would never see them. It was fun and I began to feel sexual excitment. Did I mention that H and I had not had sex in eleven years? Repeat....11 years! Finally I turned to a chat room that was really a "sex" web site. I got a email account that H would not know about....at least I thought he wouldn't find out. So, I began to have several men to respond to my profile that I placed on the web and the erotic chat was very exciting to me. I had always been the "good girl" when I was a teen and then the very "proper" Christian wife for over 40 years. This new "sin" that I discovered was so thrilling and I found out that I was not frigid because I could respond to the erotic chat. I also had a web cam and I began to show myself to these men. One thing led to another until I would be embarrased to tell what I did.

Anyway, H found the IM messages and was able to access everything that I had said. So, you know what hit the fan. After the talk he gave me, I was a good little girl and went to the computer and deleted all my contacts. Except one. Somehow, he was able to contact me when I went on line the next night. I secretly continued to communicate with him. A relationship quickly developed to a deeeper level. We have never met in real life, but he declares his love for me and wants to set up a meeting. H found out and is demanding I end the on line relationship. H wants to work things out in our marriage even though he feels like I have committed adulty (in my heart).

I feel confussed. I am drained emtionally and physically. I don't know if I want to continue the marriage or if I will ever want to have sex with H again. I tell myself that I have the "grass is greener" syndrome, but I can't help but wonder if that is my once in a lifetime chance at true hapiness. I have communicated with the OM almost every day for 8 months and he has told me everything about himself and I have "tested" him several ways and he always passes. My H even investigated him over the internet and could not find anything bad on him. I am going through the wanting to "flight" and yet I don't want to hurt H. He is a good man, but I don't feel in love with him. He is not highly motivated at all about anything. He does not provide a very high standard of living (because of his lack of motivation) whereas the OM makes a very good living.

I just don't know what to do. I am afraid if I leave it will destroy H. I can't seem to bring myself to tell OM goodbye....I tried about three times and always go back to him (on line). I waited for about 4 month after H found out about the OM for him to approach me to talk. I don't know why, he never has began a conversation before, except when he told me he knew about the OM. So, I broke my vow to myself and asked him if he wanted to talk and see if we could resolve some issues. The thing is that I have just got to the place that I am willing...."to be willing" to talk to H. That has been an accomplishment, but it is not good enough for H. He wants me to say that I want our marriage to work more than anything on earth and he says I am too negative about it. I don't show the "energy" (if you can believe that) that he wants to see put into it. Tonight, I told him that was the best I could do.

Any advice would be appreciated. I know all the horror stories about meetings over the internet, etc., so please don't go there. I know all the dangers, etc. I just need advice about the M and the R.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1116914#Post1116914

Originally Posted by Sandi2
Thank you for responding. I have not read the book but was thinking about ordering it. I have already read so many on M. I can't honestly say what I want right now. I am confused and torn. I know I can't make a life with H as long as I hold on to the OM. At the same time I am scared to death to tell the OM good-bye. I know it is wrong to continue to communicate with OM, but he seems like my soul mate. Gosh, I have heard others say things like this and click my tongue in disgust at their stupidy. I consider myself to be a bright person, but I am not acting like it. My emotions are on a roller coaster. In the mornings I resolve to try to work on my marriage...and by night I don't have the desire to even look at my H. I appreciate the fact anyone would take the time just to talk to me and lend a friendly hand. I need someone to talk to me. I am so unhappy from years of noncommunication. We have been emotionally divorced for decades now. He wants to work it out, but I don't know if I have the energy left to do that. I don't know if I love him. I just don't know much of anything right now. Please keep talking to me.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1116920#Post1116920

Originally Posted by Sandi2
Thank you so much. It would be fine if you want to say anything to me. I guess I need to hear what anyone would say....if I agreed or not. Most of what I have read has been men going through MLC, but it was me in our case. Getting older, loosing my youth and looks, not to mention my health as well. It all has taken a toll on me. I am a little old to consider an affair, but that is what I am doing. I have never been with another man before or since my H. I know I am in crises. I am reaching out to anyone that will offer to help. Thanks.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1117049#Post1117049

Originally Posted by Sandi2
Hi, well, at some point maybe I have felt almost all the emotions except hate. I don't think I have ever felt that. It is just so easy to put all the blame on him right now, but I have to admit that he is not all to blame. I had the EA. I had the cybersex. He has always tried to tune out anything that he did not want to believe or accept. To other people, he appears to be next to a saint. That makes me the bad guy with our grown children, the church, people in general. So, I feel a lot of resentment toward him. I have a "turned-off" feeling about him in every category. I am having problems respecting him in the area of his work...or I should say lack of work. We are in serious debt that I blame him for. He blames me for being frigid all our married life. So, we are blaming each other. However, I own up to my mistakes and have admitted them to him. He, on the other hand, finds it very difficult to admit he was wrong about anything. We have tried to talk some this week, but don't think we've gained any ground. I would appreciate your comments. Thanks. Oh, and don't hesitate to ask anything.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1119385#Post1119385

Originally Posted by Was2sad
Women can not love two men at the same time. Loving one will prevent you from having the right feelings for the one you have a history with. Trying to "eat cake" will cost you both men in the end.

Your feelings about your life with your H may originate from some legitimate concerns. These concerns need to be dealt with in another manner. The true odds of you being happy with the OM in two years (after your H will no longer speak your name) are minimal, but you may learn to live with your choices since you can't go back home.

People will tell you about someone they know that took a chance and never looked back. You will want to believe it is your calling. The only way to find out is to go for it. The only way to turn your back on everything that was ever important in your life is to go for it. The only way to find out it is a terrible mistake that can not be undone is to go for it.

The overwhelming amount of published works on mlc use great detail to explain your addiction. The excitement and addiction to the attention you are getting is no different than the addiction to a narcotic. Your brain is producing a chemical reaction to the experience and you are addicted to it. You do need to understand this. You do need to consider non emotional facts as you consider destroying your life and multiple family ties you have not discussed. This addiction runs its course. It leaves you more depressed in time, than you are now.

But you already know you will never forgive yourself for not taking this one time shot. You already know if you cut off OM cold turkey for good, you will think about him every day and never forgive yourself for trying. Well, in time you will never forgive yourself for abandoning your M this way, but the only way to find out is to go for it ... and I believe you will.

I think you developed such a negative view of your life and your H's role in it that you believe you will die if you don't go for it. You have come to the wrong place if you are hoping for support in leaving. You see, most of us have had someone destroy our lives and we were probably viewed just as boring as your H. But we loved our W unconditionally. We could have forgiven almost anything and worked through it all if only we would have been allowed.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1120663#Post1120663

Originally Posted by AmyC
I wish I could just tell you to stop this and love your husband but it is just not that easy. I know because I have been there. I had a MLC and at one point another man was involved. By the time 3+ years of MLC had ransacked my family and I woke up to look at the destruction mostly caused by my own hand, it was too late. But I found this board and my faith again and I've stood for over 18 months now. Finally, sometimes, I see the mountain moving. What it has taken me a long time to understand is that these "other people" are just symptoms of the real issues. Issues that lie in ourselves and our marriages.

You are not bad.
You were lonely, vulnerable and neglected.
Your husband's burden in your story is massive.
But it was your actions that blew the lid off.
And it was you that found this board and let me tell you, you know that saying "to whom much is given, much will be required"? Well, you just got handed a huge tool when you found this board and the courage to post here. But now the real work will begin and it's going to begin when you turn that finger around that is pointing at your husband and instead, it points at you. You are the only person whose actions you are responsible for, the only person in your life that you CAN change. Boredom will be nowhere to be found, trust me. But there is a TREMENDOUS amount of pain involved in everything that falls under the heading of "Divorce Busting". In my experience, the first thing that has to be "busted" is the wall of BS we've been spoon-feeding ourselves for years. If you can get through that part, and I believe you can because I KNOW how hard it was for you to write that first post and await the responses. I REMEMBER. It is hard to come to a place like this and say (in a manner of speaking) "I'm like the ones that hurt all of you...".
You have what it takes for this fight even though you don't even know if you WANT to fight...

There is a stumbling block in your immediate path and it is the thing that concerns me the most.

This online "friend".

Sweetheart, he exists primarily in your mind.
There's not a man alive on this earth that could ever live up to the image you HAVE CREATED based on the information you have about him. I guarantee it. I GUARANTEE it. He is a myth. He's not your Knight in shining armor, he's not Prince charming and there IS NO riding off into the sunset and living happily ever after. How could there be, with your broken family standing there behind you? He made you feel the things your husband had ceased to because he allowed himself to become complacent about himself, you and the marriage. THAT'S where the answers are. They're not online. They're not with that man. He is not your man.

At this point, your logic is all that is screaming for help.
It is not your heart.
But your heart can be turned back to your husband.

If I am nothing else, I am proof of that.

Your journey forward is going to have to start with an honest look back, from your husband's point of view.

Pray about it.

God will show you.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1120812#Post1120812

Originally Posted by Was2sad
Glad I did not turn you away from the forum. The fact that you are looking for direction shows you know your moral compass is failing you. The other thing that comes to my mind is that you may not be as completely mlc as you think.

When we learn more about mlc we learn about the deep seated roots that begin in troubled childhoods. The roots grow slowly but strongly into suppressed low self esteem. The low self esteem finally blooms into a newly emerged super ego that must change everything that was, into something different.

When this happens to someone and lives are destroyed, it is easy to classify this "life stage transition" as a crisis ... mlc. Psychologists such as Karl Jung have published books the size of tree trunks on the subject of life stages and the transitions between them. No offense intended, but I do not believe you are in the middle of a life stage transition, unless it is a very retarded one. By that, please understand the meaning of my words were chosen carefully not to offend. By retarded, I totally mean "delayed". It is possible.

More likely, over time you have become so totally disconnected and detached in your M that you now feel it is dead and beyond changing to meet your emotional needs. This is different from what we often call mlc. It would more closely fit the WAW as described in Michelle's WAW article .

Still, you are faced with the same outcome as someone in mlc. You need something in your life that creates passion for you. The most common source is a connection to the opposite sex. It does not have to be that way. Further, the source of your passion does not have to come from outside the M. Your ability to understand your concerns and compartmentalize your issues into individual tasks allows you to work on them one at a time.

There are books you may want to consider just to pass some time and inject additional concepts into your busy, confuse mind. Knowledge is power and you need many new tools at your disposal in this battle. Take time to read all you can. It will provide you a great deal of release to understand more dynamics behind the emotions you face.

A very very popular release in recent years by Gail Sheehy is "Breaking Point". It was an instant best seller. When my mlc XW was reading this I pointed out there were no happy endings for the husbands in the book. She left the room. Actually, there was one ... and the book seemed to paint the woman that went back to her H as a failure for not casting everything aside to explore the wide world of unknown passions.

One that was never written as a self help book comes from the years ago. Erica Jong wrote "Fear of Flying" in hopes of ... oh hell, who knows. Was she trying to be bold, meaningful, or just unique. I don't know that she even knew what she was trying to do. As I understand it, the thinking was that is was a biography of her jet set lifestyle. Certain facts were not factual, like the ending where things appeared to be working out for her. That is not the ending her life realized. Still, I think you would take away some deeper understanding than most that may read this title. One of my XW's IC suggested it to her. I gave her mine after reading it, but I don't think she ever opened it.

What the book did in fact do, was encourage an incredible number of women to leave their M. I don't think they read the whole book. It was easy to loose interest before finishing.

On the self help aisle I suggest you try to gain some understanding from the other side. Think about reading one of the titles "we" are familiar with. The most significant of these for you would be one that is dated, out of print, but usually available on Amazon ... one copy at a time. "Understanding Midlife Crisis" by Peter O'Conner is factual and informative regarding the actual mlc. It teaches there are no bad guys, just bad situations that were born of years of preprogramming. There are many others, but I am more familiar with "Hope for the Separated" by Chapman; and "When the one you love wants to leave" by Harvey. Another popular title is Surviving Your Husbands MLC by the late Sally Conway. You could benefit from learning how your actions are interpreted by your H or others.

Some very wise folks I think a lot of have gained insight from "Not Just Friends: Protect Your Relationship from Infidelity and Heal the Trauma of Betrayal" by Shirley Glass. It is on my very long To Read list.

If you are still reading, I have one last book. I saved it on purpose. It is hard for the LBS to read. Another suggested book from one of the XW's IC. It explains the pressures facing the MLCer although they don't call it that. This author is a female who approaches life for people who are living In The Meantime. "In The Meantime:Finding yourself and the love you want" by VanZant tells the reader your life is like a multi story home and you are stuck in the cluttered basement. To live a full rewarding life, you have housecleaning to do. Of course part of that is giving yourself over to the external callings such as the affair. So if you are looking for an abstract explanation of what you may be confronted with, this may actually be useful as the concepts are solid if not scary to the LBS.

There are many many books for working on the M. First, you need to decide how you plan to proceed with your life. In or Out of the M.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1121178#Post1121178

Originally Posted by Astimegoeson
I read through your whole post and the advice you have been given. I felt great sympathy for you while reading your opening post. I can understand why you feel the way you do from the description you gave. I also admire you for reaching out for help. I wish my Wife would have done the same before she walked out on me. She had her reasons as well, some valid, some not. I am from the other side of the fence, my wife left me for OM.

It's has been a while. My anger, anxiety, sadness, sense of failure, guilt, and lack of self-worth have dissipated and I am able to look at my situation and others objectively now. There really are no bad people in all of this. None of us want to hurt each other. I'm at a better place in my life now and visit this board for continued heeling, support, comradery, and to try and help others where possible. I deeply loved my wife a one time and just about walked through fire to save our marriage. I can tell you, it was pure hell to go through. I was never offered the opportunity to reconcile with me wife despite my best efforts. I no longer have a desire to save my marriage and wish my stbx all the best. I have grown and discovered some things about myself through this experience. I've walked through hell and didn't let the devil catch me. I remain positive about my future and harbor no bad feelings.

The only advice I can offer from my perspective is to please be positive of your decision if you do leave your husband, There is a great likelihood that he won't be there for you if things don't work out with OM. Are you prepared to live and be happy on your own? Whatever you decide, I wish you good luck.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1121237#Post1121237

Originally Posted by sandi2
AmyC, how do I begin to start having positive feelings toward my H? I can't imagine ever being intimate with him again? He is so good and yet I feel so turned off by him. Some days I want to run away from my entire family. The OM makes very, very good money and when you don't have any and every problem around you seems to be caused by lack of money...well, the temptation to run to the OM gets big.
Originally Posted by AmyC
sandi, lack of money is not the problem so om's money won't solve it. And there's that...it's om's money. It'll never be yours no matter how much he says he wants to share it with you.
It will be blood money.

Get away from om.
STOP COMMUNICATING with him ALL TOGETHER.

The goal here is not to instantly be attracted to your husband again. I've already told you, look at yourself, INTO yourself. Try it through your husband's eyes and maybe you can get some understanding as to just why HE is the way HE is.

The biggest turnaround for me came in the middle of my bedroom floor one night after I came out of MLC. Every night for two weeks I was there. Crying and praying. Sometimes just laying there devastated. I began to see things, our life, through my husbands eyes. I saw how I had contributed to the failure of our marriage, OUR financial problems, our eventual drifting apart. I came to realize I'd never really been a good wife. I'd taken care of the kids and the house but not him. Not him very well at all. I'd never been a real partner. I hadn't worked and therefore the entire financial burden had fallen on him. We had bought a little house on an acre of land that he push mowed for 3 years straight and I never so much as took him a glass of ice water. We were together but the division that existed had become clear to me. I had developed a sick false sense of entitlement, too. So even before MLC, I was far from a good wife. When the MLC hit, I was atrocious. I was adulterous, self-righteous, blamed my husband's drinking for every single thing...It took me having to go through quite a hellish journey before I realized the level of stress my husband had been under for years. He gave me everything as best he could and I spit in his face for the most part. After the MLC and in the growth period since, I have changed, grown up, owned up. In the midst of it all my heart found it's way back to my husband, who at one point I would cringe at thought of touching.

Look at yourself, sandi.

That's where the problem YOU have to deal with lies.

I don't care how big of a bump on a log your husband has become, you are his wife. You helped create what he is today.

You are not a victim.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1122796#Post1122796

Originally Posted by cire2
Sandi, I sure hope things become more clear for you.
Maybe this will help, if not maybe someone else.

cire


LOVE & LIFE






This story tells us something about LOVE & LIFE.


My husband is S/W Engineer by profession, I love him for his steady nature and I love the warm feeling when I lean against his broad shoulders.


Two years of courtship and now, five years into marriage, I would have to admit, that I am getting tired of it. The reasons of me loving him before, has now transformed into the cause of all my restlessness.





I am a sentimental woman and extremely sensitive when it comes to a relationship and my feelings. I yearn for the romantic moments, like a little girl yearning for candy. My husband is my complete opposite; his lack of sensitivity, and the inability of bringing romantic moments into our marriage has disheartened me about LOVE.


One day, I finally decided to tell him my decision, that I wanted a divorce.


"Why?" he asked, shocked.


"I am tired. There are no reasons for everything in the world!" I answered.


He kept silent the whole night, seemingly in deep thought. My feeling of disappointment only increased. Here was a man who was not able to even express his predicament, so what else could I expect from him?


And finally he asked me: "What can I do to change your mind?"


Somebody said it right... It's hard to change a person's personality, and I guess, I have started losing faith in him.


Looking deep into his eyes I slowly answered: "Here is the question. If you can answer and convince my heart, I will change my mind.


Let's say, I want a flower located on the face of a mountain cliff, and we both are sure that picking the flower will cause your death. Will you do it for me?"


He said: "I will give you your answer tomorrow...." My hopes just sank by listening to his response.


I woke up the next morning to find him gone, and saw a piece of paper with his scratchy handwriting underneath a milk glass, on the dining table near the front door, that goes....


My dear, "I would not pick that flower for you, but....please allow me to explain the reasons further.....


This first line was already breaking my heart. I continued reading.


"When you use the computer you always mess up the Software programs, and you cry in front of the screen. I have to save my fingers so that I can help to restore the programs.


You always leave the house keys behind, thus I have to save my legs to rush home to open the door for you.


You love traveling but always lose your way in a new city. I have to save my eyes to show you the way.


You always have the cramps whenever your "good friend" approaches every month. I have to save my palms so that I can calm the cramps in your tummy.


You like to stay indoors, and I worry that you will be infected by infantile autism. I have to save my mouth to tell you jokes and stories to cure your boredom.


You always stare at the computer, and that will do nothing good for your eyes. I have to save my eyes so that when we grow old, I can help to clip your nails and help to remove those annoying white hairs. So I can also hold your hand while strolling down the beach, as you enjoy the sunshine and the beautiful sand...and tell you the colour of flowers, just like the colour of the glow on your young face...


Thus, my dear, unless I am sure that there is someone who loves you more than I do... I could not pick that flower yet, and die ... "


My tears fell on the letter, and blurred the ink of his handwriting... and as I continue on reading... "Now, that you have finished reading my answer, and if you are satisfied, please open the front door for I am standing outside bringing your favorite bread and fresh milk...



I rushed to pull open the door, and saw his anxious face, clutching tightly with his hands, the milk bottle and loaf of bread....Now I am very sure that no one will ever love me as much as he does, and I have decided to leave the flower alone...


That's LIFE, and LOVE. When one is surrounded by love, the feeling of excitement fades away, and one tends to ignore the true love that lies in between the peace and dullness.


Love shows up in all forms; even in very small and cheeky forms. It has never been a model. It could be the dullest and most boring form ...


Flowers, and romantic moments are only used and appear on the surface of the relationship. Under all this, the pillar of true love stands... AND THAT'S LIFE


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1123697#Post1123697

Originally Posted by Sandi2
I know that I will never have anyone that loves me as much as my H does. I know that I have to face the damage that I have done to the R.

The thing that really hit me was that the emotional feelings I have toward the OM is because it is "new" and "sinful" and exciting. If I allow the EA to turn into a PA then I have dug my grave deeper. The physical will be exciting and thrilling beyond anything I have felt before...according to that book. However, in time, if I should choose the OM, it would wear off and I would be in the same R as I find myself now. That is what some of you have tried to tell me. Or, I have read so much lately I have forgotten exactly who or where I got it, but the thing is I finally get it. The book broke it down into 4 stages and the third is where the W is in limbo as to what she wants to do. That is where I am now. But, I will not have a PA after reading that book. It scared me. I don't want to go through the hell that I would be opening myself up for. According to the book, I would be going through a vicious cycle of repeating everything again and again until my emotional state would finally break down completely. I don't want to live like that.

I know what I have go to do. The thing is to find the strength to do it. The first step is saying goodbye....and mean it...to the OM. According to the book, I will go through a time of "grieving". That is where I will need you guys to keep me encouraged...ok?

Also, I know I have to take baby steps every day to work on my M. I feel like I took a huge step last night reading all that information. The book explained why I don't have the feeling of being in love and that it feels more like a brother-sister relationship. Makes sense to me. Don't know how long it may take to work through that part of it. But, why would I want to leave this R just to find myself in another one just like it in a few years to the OM? I'm too old to go from one R to another and then another, etc. Besides, I'm not cut out for that kind of life.

I may have to come here several times a day just to talk out my thoughts or ask for advice from you who are quickly becoming friends. Thanks for your support. Today is the first time in months and months that I have felt the least bit of encouragement. And, maybe that is not even the correct word. I just know what I have to do to break out of the "limbo" stage. Instead of saying, "I don't know what I want or I don't know what to do"....I DO know what to do!

Please don't think for a second that I have my act together because I am a long way from that! Please don't stop writing to me because I need accountability. I think I was almost getting approval from my mother (without her even realizing what she was doing) to leave my husband. That was dangerous. She was really fed up with his not working and I played on that to get her approval for me to leave him and for her to accept the OM.

My first step is to say good-bye to the OM. God, I need strength to do that!


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1125283#Post1125283
Originally Posted by imLIN
My word to you is view the OM as poison right now...if he truly loves you then he will certainly let you go...that is what all of us here have had to do at some point in order to hopefully win our S's back...if he keeps trying to contact you then send an email that simply states "I am married and need to act that way so I am saying good-bye. Please don't contact me ever again."...Then BLOCK his address and IM's...remember he is poison so don't even go for a peek or a taste it will suck you down and sicken you more....Really...he is willing to have an A with a married woman...in my book he doesn't require a good-bye....you OWE your H that respect not the OM who is willing to let you destroy your life just for him...that is a selfish man who is probably only seeking one thing...to gratify himself more...


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1129421#Post1129421

Originally Posted by imLIN
I to was so totally shocked...I brought up the kids, how I had dedicated my whole life to H, I hit as many guilt buttons as I could...it was later...much much later....that H disclosed that anytime a guilt button was hit it drove him farther away...for me it was desperation to get him to "feel"...because he was so cut off and so distant...in my mind (pre-DB'ing)I felt if I could just get him to feel something he would "snap out of it"...


On the subject of being happy...H realized while he was gone...and upon his return...that "I" was not the whole reason he was unhappy...and I learned that I couldn't rely on H to make me happy...while a couple is "one" they still need a life...they need their own individuality...we both lost that...but now he has things he does for enjoyment and I have mine...and then we have OURS...so look for your happiness and remember it doesn't come from someone else...it comes from YOU...


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1130315#Post1130315

Originally Posted by sandi2
I think you asked me what I wanted from my M. I want to feel passion for my H. I want to feel desire. I have been dead inside for so long that when I did turn to OM the feelings of desire was new and exciting to me. I thought I was a freak for so many years and was told how our marriage was not what it should be because I was frigid....in so many words that was what my H told me every time I tried to talk to him about anything. No matter what the subject...he always brought up about the sex. So, I got colder and we got farther apart. He stopped sleeping in the same room with me about 20 years ago, and then stop even trying to have sex 11 years ago. We just lived under the same roof, went to the same church, family, etc. and to everyone else, we appeared to be very normal. Ha! Would they be surprised!

If you have read all my posts then you know that he tried very hard when he first found out about the OM. But, he had waited too long and was smothering me to death. The harder he tried the more turned off I felt. I wanted to run! I talked every day to my mother to keep from running. The OM told me he would come get me if I wanted him to, but I didn't know if I could do that to my family. Even though my kids are grown, I knew it would distroy my family. It has been 5 long months since everything hit the fan with my H. I have not run away yet. I have just gotten where I can stand to be under the same roof at the same time with him. I know all this sound so very awful to asy about one's spouse. I'm just telling it like it is.

As I told in my post early this morning before I left for work, we MLC or WAW or whatever I am....Lord only knows...we are not our true selves. It feels like some thing has crawled up under our skin and taken over. We know right from wrong and we admit we are wrong, but it is like we don't want to do anything about it. The desire to be with the OM or to run away or be by ourselves, feel the hot sexual desire, or whatever the heck it is we crave....is more important that our own children at that moment in time. I am baring my soul here and it isn't very pretty...I know.

For years, when I was younger, I tried hard, or at least I thought I did. I would apply all the "Total Woman" principles (anyone remember that book?) and would try to keep the M alive. But my husband was so "laid back" to the point of being down right lazy. There, I said it out-loud! He tried being self-employed after the company he worked for went out of business and that is when the M started going down. He is never motivated enough to go out and hustle the work up and keep the bills paid. I did not come from a wealthy family so it is not like I am hard to please. My family was on the same economical level as his. I just want to have a little security in my old age. He just never was a "go-getter" about anything. I was the other way around. We were true opposites. In the beginning maybe it attracted us, but I can assure you it doesn't after 41 years. I have worked two at a time several times and keep the house, kids, cook, etc., but do you think he ever did? Nope! Anyway, over the years, a lot of resentment built up, especially when all he ever had to bring to the talk table was that I was frigid and if we just had more sex, everything would be roses. It turned me off more and more. Then, about 8 years ago, I was diagnosed with Fibromyalgia. It is combined problems of sorts, but includes a lot of pain and chronic fatigue. That is when I really started feeling dead inside. I just exsisted. I was on so many meds that I could hardly function at work. I missed a lot of work, in fact. Was afraid I would lose my job.

Well, I have ranted and vented and at least I'm not crying right now, so thanks for being here for me and let me get this off my chest.

You will probably be scared to ask me any more questions. Just kidding. Don't be, if you aren't afraid to listen. I need everyone I can get right now, because, seriously, I do feel like I am close to a nervous break-down at times.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1130345#Post1130345

Originally Posted by cire
A nurse took the tired, anxious serviceman to the bedside.

"Your son is here," she said to the old man.


She had to repeat the words several times before the patient's eyes opened.


Heavily sedated because of the pain of his heart attack, he dimly saw the young uniformed


Marine standing outside the oxygen tent. He reached out his hand. The Marine wrapped his toughened fingers around the old man's limp ones, squeezing a message of love and encouragement.


The nurse brought a chair so that the Marine could sit beside the bed. All through the night the


young Marine sat there in the poorly lighted ward, holding the old man's hand and offering him words of love and strength. Occasionally, the nurse suggested that the Marine move away and rest awhile.


He refused.


Whenever the nurse came into the ward, the Marine was oblivious of her and of the night noises of the hospital - the clanking of the oxygen tank, the laughter of the night staff members exchanging greetings, the cries and moans of the other patients.


Now and then she heard him say a few gentle words. The dying man said nothing, only held tightly to his son all through the night.


Along towards dawn, the old man died. The Marine released the now lifeless hand he had been holding and went to tell the nurse. While she did what she had to do, he waited.


Finally, she returned. She started to offer words of sympathy, but the Marine interrupted her.


"Who was that man?" he asked.


The nurse was startled, "He was your father," she answered.


"No, he wasn't," the Marine, replied. "I never saw him before in my life."


"Then why didn't you say something when I took you to him?"


"I knew right away there had been a mistake, but I also knew he needed his son, and his son just wasn't here. When I realized that he was too sick to tell whether or not I was his son, knowing how much he needed me, I stayed."


The next time someone needs you ... just be there. Stay.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1137936#Post1137936

Originally Posted by Dom R
PS: about your earlier post somewheres, about "fantacising"...

I hear that for women, its about the feelings that this fantasy person evokes in you, not neccessarily the person themselves.

maybe you can try shifting the fantasy.

first, without wallowing in it, remember what it was about the fantasy about the other person, got you feeling good about it. Probably, it was the way he treated you, or talked to you, or...


then, imagine that your husband got hit by a personality changer, and started acting that same way towards you.

"but he'd never do that!!!"

well, funny thing.... this is a "fantasy". reality doesnt have to have anything to do with it ;\)

give it a try.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1138838#Post1138838
Originally Posted by Dom R
A sure fire way to kill your marriage, is to avoid doing things because your husband "might" react a certain way. Because you can always think up some reaction from him that would be negative.. so you can provide yourself with an excuse not to do ANYTHING, if you allow yourself to keep thinking that way.

if you've read michelle's book(s), you might know the importance of acting "as if".. in the sense of "act as if if.. your husband will react the way you would LIKE him to react".

if you need reassurance about that.... then combine it with actually talking to your husband about it. he's not a dog.. you can actually hold a conversation with him ;\)

Maybe let him know,
"I'd like to spend a little time with you, just sitting next to you. I still need your help doing [whatever you need him to keep doing for your relationship]. But I thought I might try this, for OUR relationship. I'm not ready for anything more than just sitting next to each other... I'd like you to understand that if you push for more, that will make me feel uncomfortable, and I will get up. Are you ok with that?"


Originally Posted by Dom R
Most men usually LIKE to follow explicit directions. So, you can directly ask him, "I'd like to share something I heard about. i need someone to talk to. i need you to be [understanding/just listen/whatever YOU need]. Would you do that for me?"

If he loves you, and wants to work on your marriage.. he WANTS to do things for you. Telling him what he can do for you, and giving him a chance to do it, will make him very happy.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1139500#Post1139500
Originally Posted by imLIN
I also read in a posting that your H doesn't feel he needs to make much change...that he has done all he should/could...and he may REALLY feel this way based upon your actions in the marriage over the past many years...what you have to remember is you can't MAKE someone change...BUT...with YOUR changes WILL come changes in H...it is like dominoes...once one starts to fall the others follow...and the momentum picks up...

I know this to be fact because even though I was the LBS...my H felt like yours...that I was the one that needed to change...that despite his leaving me and having an affair that he had put his all in to our marriage...he felt totally justified in his not loving me anymore...this was very hard for me because even though I didn't leave and for the most part "felt" happy...I realized after his leaving that I wasn't as happy as I thought and that my health was suffering from the stress as much as he stated his was...BUT...I also acknowledged that I did need to make changes regardless of what H did...and I was almost positive that he would continue in his self-righteous feelings he had...so I continued in my "own journey"...not judging his...not worrying about whether he would or wouldn't change for me...it became about me being HAPPY WITH MYSELF!...and guess what?!?!...in time ( a long time) H did see where he needed to make changes...it got easier for us to talk things over with each other...and I can honestly say now that H has come a long way...BUT I led that way...my changes created change in all those around me...


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1139840#Post1139840

Originally Posted by Sandi2
I am bearing my soul here because I know that I can't accomplish anything if I am not honest with myself.


Originally Posted by Sandi2
My prayers are for all the ones on here that are hurting. It is for everyone...regardless of which side of the fence we may be on, we all are hurting. The LBS may not believe that by our actions, (the WAS), but we are....our guilt, our self-inflicted punishment, our confusion, not to mention God's discipline, facing the results of our actions....it is painful even if we don't talk about it to our families...believe me...we hurt too. I don't say that for any reason other than to just let you know we have not "gotten off easily"....ok? I think I am realizing what is meant by not believing what you see and hear. No matter what is played out or said in front of you....we WAS are hurting. And, sooner or later....we are very, very sorry for what we have done. My prayer is that all the WAS or "nearly" WAS, as I was, will be sorry sooner rather than....too late. Why do I say I hope we will be sorry sooner? Because, then we can start to heal. That is what I want to do. I want to start to heal. I believe in God and I know He can do anything as long as we allow ourselves to be right with Him. If we are in His perfect Will....then He will help us and heal us back to His plan for our lives.

Well....didn't mean to preach a sermon here on Sunday morning. Thanks to all of you...my new and precious friends...keep on keeping on. This board was the best thing that has happen to me since my "fall". I have learned so much.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1158448#Post1158448


Originally Posted by Kelley
I really know what you are talking about how hard it is for a woman to have sex when they don't feel it. This is where me and my H's M started breaking down. He wasn't giving me his quality time among other things so I just found it really hard to have sex with him and enjoy it. This is part of our woman feelings.


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Originally Posted by sandi2
I think if I had been satisfied and happy with myself and my MR, I would not have gone "looking" and "flirting" with danger (OM). Although I never had a PA, I did have an EA and had the embarrasing cybersex. (That is not easy to admit.) You see, I became someone I did not even recognize! How could I expect my own family to know what the heck was going on with me?

My poor H did all the "wrong" things at first. It was so unlike him to act the way he did. He would snoop, and spy. He would follow me around the house, watch every move I made.....everything that drove me crazy! He had always given me plenty of privacy and space....but I betrayed his trust!

I was ready to walk out the door...with or without the finances because I could not stand him one more minute! I told him to back away and now! Leave me alone and give me plenty of space! He did and quickly. That is what saved our marriage. Although, he used "tough love", and by that I mean that he told me what he would not tolerate under his roof. But you know, if you really want to do something....you will find a way and a time. So, it was still up to me to make that decision....he could not MAKE me do it! You cannot control another person. Every time he tried to control me....I would rebel that much more.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1167165#Post1167165

Originally Posted by SDFoundGirl
Are you in IC? If not, go, if only to figure out the low desire thing. I've had the same problem...and for me at least, it's the courting and the intense feelings of the new and different and hopeful that I like. My H is like vanilla...I like vanilla, but sometimes something less predictable and safe is what I want. And also, for me at least, a huge part of my problems with wanting to be intimate with my H was because the R was bad...I didn't feel heard, didn't get any kind of positive touch except in pursuit of sex, felt like he made me the scapegoat for everything. Voicing my feelings and taking control of my own life and responsibility for speaking up has helped in the sex department a lot. It's not perfect...but there's progress.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1168248#Post1168248

Originally Posted by SDFoundGirl
Sweetie....forgive yourself.

Humans are the only "animal" (for lack of a better word) that punishes themselves over and over and over again for the same wrongdoing. Every time you think of it and feel bad, you're punishing yourself again.

God's already forgiven you...He did it before you even sinned. God understands what we sometimes don't: we are imperfect, human, and we WILL screw up.

You are living in the past, and that makes no sense because there's nothing you can do to change your past. Right here, right now is the only thing you have control over. Stop punishing yourself...let go. And don't even feel bad because of the temptation--you created a habit, and habits are hard to break.

Write a love letter to yourself. Write down all the good and wonderful things about you, then read it over and over again. Create a daily affirmation replacing your old thinking (I'm a bad, horrid, unworthy person b/c of OM) with new thinking (something like, I am strong, valuable, worthy and wonderful. I forgive myself like God forgives me.)

But...sweetie...you've got to stop beating yourself up. You can't move forward until you let go of the past and start being more gentle with yourself.

Now...this is just *me*...but I kind of think you might be a fantastic example to your D and GS *because* you had this experience...and you're going to show them how to overcome it and accept God's grace and compassion. You're teaching them that screwing up is not the end of the world, it's not a death sentence, it's just one of those things we do. To me, that's real Christianity. All of those people you see who project a "Godly" image...well, they've got their own ghosts too.

And remember...when Jesus was on earth, WHO was he hanging out with? WHO did he demonstrate ultimate compassion for? People like Mary Magdalene, drug addicts, the sick, the homeless...not the big wigs in the church, not the ones who thought they'd already "arrived".

So, write that letter to yourself, and FORGIVE.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1177800#Post1177800

Originally Posted by runningoutoftime
I really appreciate you being here. I think it's enlightening to learn things from the WAS perspective. I have a lot of respect for the WAS who decides they truly want to work on themselves and their marriage... especially in your case where it's a long-term marriage to a decent guy.

I have to agree with the other posts about looking great (and sexy!) even if your husband isn't giving compliments and expressing passion. Sometimes just feeling like you look sexy may help you feel sexier... kind of like the think it, and it becomes it. Spend some time throughout the day imaging great sex with your husband then plan to go out to dinner with him that evening, have a little wine or a martini, wear a dress, maybe even thigh-high hose and garters... and no underwear! Then, when you are at the restaurant whisper to him that you aren't wearing any underwear. then talk about sex, ask him to describe, in detail, what he likes. Then share with him details of what you like.

This is your husband, and you ARE a good person... it's okay to be a sexually "wild" with your husband. It will bring you closer.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1181409#Post1181409

Originally Posted by sandi2
At first, I would cry when I went to bed b/c I needed to be held and loved....but I'm not doing that so much now. I know that some of you wonder why I can't just go into my H and tell him how I feel and ask him to hold me and to make love to me.....but right now, it would be like trying to do that with my brother...and I cannot force myself to do it. We've not had sex in so many years and it feels more like we are just relatives sharing the same house. I am afraid that I may never have that desire to return. It was exciting to realize I could feel normal sexual desire toward another man....but I knew it was wrong and I had to end it. Until then, I even wondered if I was just not normal. Then, I questioned my love for my H. But, I remember how I felt when I married him and I know that I did love him once. But, I think that my emotional needs were denied so many years and resentments pushed down for so long that maybe it killed a lot of those feelings.

I'm sorry, b/c I know that makes some LBS upset to hear statements like that from WAS. I have heard some angry replies to some statements from LBS to WAS.....so that is why I appreciate you all being so nice to me.

I realized when I replied to a couple of young men regarding their stitch.....how upset or resentful I still was and that I needed to be more careful in how I tried to give "advice". Compassion is something we all need here....regardless of which side of the fence we have come.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1187247#Post1187247

Originally Posted by Dom R
here's the thing: have you read DB?
I think this is the time to focus on one thing in there, which is to start on things "with a beginner's mind".
Don't try to hash out all the things that you did or did not do in the past. Try to look at your situation, NOW, as a brand new situation.

No history.

The first step in being happily intimate in a sexual way, is to be happily intimate, in a non-sexual way. And the simplest thing is for you to hold each other.

Instead of making excuses to not even try... How about you just decide to try it, and see what happens?
Forget about the past. Focus on the present, and future.
Ask your husband to hold you. Don't even go into long, detailed "this may lead to sex" rationales. Just say that you feel the need for
[comfort, being held, whatever honest reason you like].

Just ask him. And keep doing it for a while.
Every night for a week, perhaps?

If he says yes, and you allow yourself to be comfortable with that.. keep doing it! smile
If it doesn't then we can all help you think of other things.

but lets start with the easy, straightforward things first, yes? !!

I think that part of the issue you are dealing with in yourself, is "performance anxiety". You are so hung up on, "I HAVE to do this..." that are you too stressed to enjoy it, or get excited about it. Lots of people psych themselves out of enjoying sex this way. So forget about any "big goals" for now. And just enjoy being held.

I can tell from what you write about him, that your husband will be more than willing to hold you, if you tell him that is what you need from him.

And if you'd like to do something back for him.. the biggest, best thing you can do in return....
is to simply smile at him while he holds you.

I think that's what your husband would most like from you right now.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1187872#Post1187872

Originally Posted by AmyC
You have to wake yourself up soon and stop using all your passion to lament the things you think you do not have.

There is no way your husband is going to understand the extent of your emotions (or lack thereof) if you don't walk yourself into the other room and tell him. Tell him you love him and you want your marriage to succeed but for it to do so he has to pull his head outta the idiot-box (that's what my Papa calls the TV)and HELP YOU. My old friend crazedmom had the exact same problem before she left this board. Her husband was like a bump on a log! Woman, you HAVE PASSION. It is splattered throughout every single one of your posts.

I want you to make a plan.
I don't care if it's to go feed pigeons or to go skinny-dipping in Mr. Johnson's pond, just MAKE ONE. Don't ASK your husband if he wants to go. Tell him "Honey, next Saturday I have planned for us to __________________ . We will be leaving at ____ am/pm. Please be ready. I am very much looking forward to this" (don't worry about throwing in that guilt card at then end, either. Sometimes it's a good thing!)

One more thing... and this is gonna make your teeth fall out when you read it (dentures or NOT!)....do you have a full length mirror?
If you don't, I think you can get one at Walmart for about $5 this time of the year.

Do your hair up however you do it.
Get out your prettiest nightie (if you haven't bought one in years, get out the best one you have - NO EXCUSES).
Look at yourself in the mirror. Pose yourself as if you were 15 again. Pucker up and kiss the mirror with bright red lipstick on, woman! You see where I'm going with this? Find your inner VAMP. Find your beauty. Find your sexuality. Shut the freakin door while Homie is watching Jeopardy or whatever - spend some time with yourself. Let yourself feel pretty. Let yourself feel sexy. I'm thinking if you get yourself kicked into gear, Homie's gonna start looking a little more appealing and you can get over this god-forsaken hump you're stuck on. Don't tell me you're fat either or any other nonsense. I'm not going to accept that. Some of the sexiest women in the world have more cushin' for the pushin' if you know what I'm sayin' wink .

Things don't have to remain this way, but the ball is in your court to change the status quo.

So get out there and bounce! (no pun intended)

And hey, if you're worried about God, let me remind you, it's all legal because this man is your husband. Now work it, girl!


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1195325#Post1195325

Originally Posted by Sandi2
Oh God.....a "recap"! Well, ok, here goes. I thought I may be having a MLC b/c I had all the signs....only thing was I was about to turn 60, so that seem to be a bit old for mid-life. However, my M was in trouble. We had not had sex in eleven years and I was very lonely. Even though I had never had a problem with "age" like some women do....suddenly here I was turning 60 and boy did it hit me hard! It's a long story, but you can read my threads, if you want details (lol), but I fell into playing the on-line games where you can chat with the players. Men would flirt with me... and at first, of course, I wouldn't do that b/c I was too much of a lady....and a married one at that. But I finally began to flirt back....but guess what? It was fun! Then they (some of the men I flirted with) wanted more than just to play the games....they wanted to get on my "friends list" so we could IM. Especially when they discovered I had a web cam....they were very interested in seeing what I looked like. Well (of course) they would always act shocked that I was so "beautiful"! (fool) Anyway eventually I got on an adult friends chat line and the rest of the story gets ugly. However, through some great guidance from people here....I discovered that was my "drug of choice".

I was so stupid and so careless about my on-line contacts and conversations that my H and my grown D (and maybe my grandson) found my messages! I would even write short romance stories....even using my name for the female character....and it would be packed full of sexual content. Well, that was found by them also. My H does not know that my D found them. But, she finally told me that she knew before he did. I can tell you that I truly wanted to die!!!

When H finally confronted me about it and demanded I delete everything and everyone....and everything WOULD be over.....(or so he thought)....it got into high gear. I did delete everyone....except one man. Out of rebellion toward my H, my depression, my health issues.....and hundred other reasons.....I went into a full blown EA with the OM on-line (that I had failed to delete from my friends list). Let me tell you the OM was good! He fed my ego everything it wanted to hear. I felt great.....in some ways. Started looking pretty darn good too! But in other ways.....I felt awful. I think the word "hell" comes to mind.

Things got really bad and I was ready to walk away from 41 years of marriage! My H did all the wrong things that most S do when they are clinging to the one that is wanting to leave. If I had had the money to make it on my own....I would have walked out. I did not want to move in with my mother, but I would have--if my H had not backed away when he did and give me the space he did. That was the only thing that saved me from walking out the door! Well....that and the fact I found this board. I got some great help from very caring people here. I was reading everything on this board.....and plus other web sites.....buying books, tapes, etc. In other words.....took a big crash course.

So now, we are back to where the MR was before I started playing the games and that whole scene. BTW, I did tell the OM good-bye...but I was so close to having a PA with him that we had made plans to meet....when, where, etc. I am just so very thankful that it never got to that stage, b/c I think my M would surely be over now and and a lot more damage done than ever.

My H has been able to forgive me and we are back to where our "normal" was. However, I don't want that "normal" b/c that is why I got into trouble in the first place. I don't want to settle for that. But, my problem is---that I don't have any sexual desire for my H. He wants me, but he has not slept in the same bedroom with me in 22 years and has not had sex with me in 11 years. He waits for me to make the moves....and I can't.....or I should say....I won't do it. I care deeply about him and love him the way I would love another member of my family.....but don't feel in love with him and don't want to have sex with him.

It has been an on-going problem all our married life. He has always blamed me for being frigid and for "rejecting" him when he would try to have sex with me. I admit that most every time that I did feel "turned off" by him. So, I thought something was very wrong with me. Now, I am not gay! I like men. So, that is not the problem. I just never got the hots for my H. I went for years thinking that something was adnormal about me when I would read books and see movies about other women. I never felt anything like they did! I never had a climax with my H. Had to read about what to do to give myself one in order to experience it. Then I was hooked! I loved it! Would have loved having one with my H. BTW, I was very sheltered growing up and never even masterbated before I got married....much less have sex before M. I barely knew the facts of life enough to have sex on our wedding night!

I prayed for years and years that God would just "fix me" so I could be a good wife to my H. He was a good man and deserved to have a good, loving, sexy W in return. About the time I felt like that just might actually happen.....my H suddenly stopped having sex with me.....without one word of explanation. I thought it was b/c he could no longer "get it up" and did not want to put pressure on him......and besides he blamed me for his "problem" b/c he didn't get it enough was why he couldn't get it up anymore. (Wheeee.....now I'm out of breath!) So, we have gone all these years without sex and it isn't getting any better (and we're not getting any younger...if you know what I mean).

My feelings for him are resentful and I have days that I am very angry toward him......and not sure why. I still feel very turned off by him. He is not bad looking, has a good personality, very clean, etc. But, we are like you see couples that have been married a long time and it seems like everything about the one mate irritates the other mate. We get on each other's nerves! We had gotten where we fussed quite a bit before the on-line EA. We don't do that anymore.

I don't want to live out my years in a R like that. He won't go to C. We go to church, and go to work, and go to a few family get togethers....and that is our life. Very boring to tell you the truth. Boredom got me into trouble.

BTW, I have fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue. That probably doesn't mean much to anyone unless they or a family member has it. It is very painful and limits your activities. Depression goes hand in hand with it and getting up and going to work every morning is a challenge.

Well, I feel like I have told this in a choppy style and I am sorry if it doesn't make much sense to you. I welcome any suggestions or even questions. That is why I'm here in SSM. I don't want my R to be this way. I want to feel desire for my H, but I can't seem to force it to happen. I know the books say to just "do it anyway" but I can't seem to be able to do that.

I think I am okay with the "age" thing now. Apparently the MLC didn't last long (thank God). I didn't have the energy to fight it anyway....lol.

I have not heard from any women my age. A few men have told me they were in their 60's. If there are any folks around this age or have been married this long....it sure would help to hear how you are coping with any like manner problems. Heck, it doesn't matter about the age. It is just that I feel like the oldest person on here....lol. But you know what? Over my life.....age never made any difference in my friendships. I've had friends that were 20 years older than me and 20 years younger. Isn't that great? However, somewhere through my depression.....and lack of interest in life and health problems, I don't feel like I have any friends left....you know...the "running buddy" type of friends. Nobody to go have a good time with. So, you all are my friends now. Oh Lordy.....welcome to my pity party I'm having.

Okay, that must be a sign to shut up for a while and get a grip. Come talk to me.....


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1203301#Post1203301

Originally Posted by cemar2
Think about the whole dating process, the main objective of dating (even lifelong relationships) is to win the desire of the other person. We don't date to win the love of the other person, we date to win the DESIRE of the other person. If you know the person you are with does not desire you, then you STOP dating them. THIS DOES NOT CHANGE ONCE YOU MARRY. From a man' point of view, most everything we do is done to win the desire and respect of our wives. Desire is expressed by the women WANTING us, by sexual desire. So, in effect, men marry for sex. When we DON'T get this, eventually we must shut down, because it becomes unbearable to be the one and ONLY one in a relationship that actually desires.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1206197#Post1206197
Originally Posted by Kettricken
If you feel one way and act another, it doesn't necessarily mean you are being inauthentic or "not true to yourself" ... as long as your actions agree with what you, as a rational being, truly believe and want for yourself and your marriage. Regardless of what your emotions may be telling you in any particular moment.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1208795#Post1208795

Originally Posted by Sandi2
Do you know why I had an EA? I don't think it had anything to do with the lack of sex in my M at all! It was the lack of emotional fulfillment and emotional connection with my H. The OM "appeared" to be compassionate. Of course, I know now that all he was wanting was to get in my panties, but that was what I was willing to do at the time the EA was going on. The OM was just "building up" to the time we could have the PA. That was the "courting" part of the R.

One of the many hard things for me as I go through the withdrawal stages from the EA is that my H still doesn't seem to "get it". I wonder if he ever will.....But, where I would talk it out and feel better, my H keeps it bottled up inside of him. So, we don't come together and "connect" on anything.


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Originally Posted by Sandi2
Yes, I am resentful. Yes, I am having a hard time forgiving and forgetting almost 42 years of neglect. As I have said, I was always the one trying to add "spice" to the MR......not "Mr. Bump on a Log"! I needed that emotional intimacy so badly that first year of M! I practically begged him for it....but he couldn't do it and as a result, my body shut down to him and I couldn't respond to him sexually. But, then I was the bad one! When I tried to talk.....he wouldn't even acknowledge me by looking at me when I talked. He wouldn't answer me when I asked him a question. He just stared at the TV. But, his answer was always the same.....just have more sex and that would solve the problems of the world!

Sorry, I just get so tired of it all. I think he needs to take his share of the responsibility of the breakdown of the M and he doesn't. He doesn't think he has done one thing wrong. Well, I just don't know if I can get the grit and grace to overcome all of that and respond to him sexually or not. We are talking about a lot of years of neglect to meet emotional needs. Yes, I did not meet his needs sexually.....but neither were mine met either. I tried over and over to tell him that if he would only meet me half-way and compromise and come to bed with me and hold me and talk to me that I could respond to him sexually. One time.........one time....he tried it and it was the best night of our entire M. I'll never forget it as long as I live. And all he had to do was talk to me. I was on cloud nine. You would think that he could see what a difference a small jester like that would make, wouldn't you? He never did it again.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1221745#Post1221745

Originally Posted by Lillieper
I appreciate the need to rant from time to time--- so have at it with no apology necessary.

But the main reason why people are telling you that YOU need to do something is because you are HERE on this BB.

If your spouse were here on the BB they'd be getting the "this is what you need to do message."

That's the answer, plain and simple.

We don't usually say, "What your partner needs to do is--" because we mostly recognize that you can't make other people do things.

We pick on the poster because they're here to be picked on.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1226340#Post1226340

Originally Posted by sandi2
I am so glad that you contacted me. I don't know that I will be that much of a help, but I will certainly talk with you and listen to you. I can tell you what went on with me.

I read a few of your posts to get an idea of your stitch. I see where you keep talking about how angry your XW is.....still. That tells me she had allowed that to build for a long time before she finally left. Do you know what you did that would cause her to be that angry with you? Is it more in the form of resentment or just coming out as "hate" toward you? I don't believe that women keep feeling that way after the D for no reason. It sounds like she is in MLC from what you said in another post and it will just take time for her to come out of that. But my main concern is why she is holding on to this anger toward you. She has her freedom and she is openly seeing OM, so she should have what she wanted. Right? But.....she is apparently not happy! The clue here is that she is still talking about YOU to her brother! That means you are still on her mind. She is venting, etc., but you are still on her mind. You are on her mind in a negative way, but you are there none the less.

I truly believe that in time she will realize the grass is not greener on the other side and she will begin to come out of the fantasy. If she sees you a changed man......and she likes what she sees.....then there is much hope for you. So, that means that you need to work real hard in making life long changes in yourself.

A flag went up to me when I read where you held your little D when she was in a bad mood where before you would have yelled at her. That is a very positive step. I am wondering if you took your frustrations out on your family when you would go home from work. You said you drank too much. That also was a clue. So, I have to ask.......do you think you had abusive behavior toward your family? By that, I mean verbal, mental, or even physical. If you weren't abusive, then there must have been something to make your W this angry.

Ok, to kind of change the subject from that.......let's talk about what you are doing now. No contact to the W is most important. You said that you had "controlling" ways. You can't do that any more. You must let go. You must live and let live or it will drive you crazy. She is a free agent to do whatever she wants with whomever she wishes. The more you try to contact her, the more you are pushing her away. When there are children, it is very difficult not to have some sort of contact....but it can be very limited and kept on a business level. The best thing you can do at the moment is to keep away and out of her sight. She has to get over this anger and every time you make contact, regardless of what type of contact, the anger is going to be stirred up all over again.

For your own peace of mind, you must let go. I don't mean let go of the "hope" that some day the two of you can be together again, but I think it is going to take a lot of time. You must decide if it is worth it or not. If you know in your heart that you do have some abusive traits, I would like to encourage you to see a C to work through this for your sake. Then, when the time is right, you can either write a letter or talk in person to your XW. I'm not saying that you did abuse her or anyone else, please know that, ok? I am just trying to figure out why she has so much anger toward you. There has to be a big reason.

I know for myself that WAW usually have a lot of resentment that has built for years and years. Freedom becomes more important than just about anything else in life. They want to get away from the "problem". If she is in MLC then she is also trying to live in a fantasy world. It will finally come crashing down on her and she will start to get out of the "fog" that she is in. But, how much time it will take depends on the individual person and their stitch.

Have you read Michelle's book on DR? Even though you have gotten D, you can use valuable information from her book. GAL is most important. Taking care of yourself and making positive changes in your lifestyle.

I encourage you to keep coming here and reading and posting. It is what kept me from walking away from almost 42 years of M. People here are great! They will come to your rescue.

Let us hear from you b/c we care.


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Originally Posted by sandi2
I was almost a WAW from 41+ years of M. I went through something like a MLC.....very late in life I might add, but thankfully it did not last as long as most I hear about. I give credit to this board and the great advice I was given when I first came here. If it had not been for that, I probably would have a very screwed up life right now.

I can identify with how your W wants the space from you. I can identify with her resentment of you trying to do all the things she had wanted you to do for years.....but now she feels it is too late and it is smothering her to death. To be very plain, she wants away from you! However, I don't think her leaving the house is a good idea. As long as the two of you can stay under the same roof.....I think the better chance you may have in working the M out. But, that C is poison to your R and you need to get rid of her immediately. I went to one and told her up front that I was into internet sex, etc. and she did not see anything wrong with that! She blamed everything on my H. That was a big clue for me to stay away from her.....and she is the most highly qualified C around here! Scary!

Anyway, my H told me if I left.....there would be no coming back...and I knew he meant every word of it. I could not support myself and I knew he would not help me, so I was pretty much forced to stay home or else move in with my mother, which I did not want to do. But, I did tell him to back off immediately or I would leave. He was doing all the things you have done and it was driving me crazy! The more he pressed me, the further away I wanted to get from him. He also snooped into my email, phone bills, dresser drawers, everything in the house that would give him clues as to what I was up to. I was so furious at him I almost hated him. Even though I was the one that was having an EA with a man over the internet, I felt as though my H had violated me by snooping! Crazy, I know, but that is how WAW's think. The thing is, it pushed me closer to the OM.

My H did give me space and we live in a very, very small house. But, this is what he did. He mostly watches TV at night and I would come to the back room where our computer is and I would stay on this board.....reading and posting until bedtime. This was my therapy. I ordered every book anyone suggested and I'm still reading when I go to bed. My H and I do not share the same bedroom.

At first, things were very strained between us but in time we began to lighten up and become more relaxed around each other. Of course, the first thing I had to do was make my decision to cut the OM out of my life and stay with my H. However, even after doing that, things were not automatically fixed. Not by a long shot! And I told my H that I would have to go through a grieving period to get over the OM, and believe it or not, he understood and has been very patient about it.

So now I am approaching my 3 month anniversary of no contact with OM. I can tell all the difference in the world in my emotional feelings about that. B/c it was only an EA where he was feeding my ego. But, it was like a drug that I had become addicted to and it was hard to let go of it.

I don't know your ages.....I think I missed that in the post. But it sounds like she may be going into MLC. She is missing the single life and wants to replay that. I only pray that it does not lead to meeting OM and leading to an A. All this social activites without you with her is like sending out signals that she is looking for something and is vulnerable to an EA if not a PA. I know you don't want to hear that, but you surely know in your heart that it is just a matter of time if she keeps this up.

My advice to you would be to stay under the same roof as long as possible. Once she is out on her own, she is going to really do things you won't be happy about. Plus, she may decide she really like that freedom and doesn't want to go back home again. I think you need to give her as much freedom from "you" as possible right now, and I know that scares you, but you've got to stay away from her and stop pressing her and trying to control her. My H tried to "force" me to stop contacting OM. He did some really silly things and treated me like a little child! Well, if a woman wants to contact OM, she will find ways of doing it and her H can't stop her. That's exactly what I did. So, don't try to control her.....she will rebell.

Stay busy with the kids and doing jobs around the house....inside or out. Doing things that would help her (like vacuuming the floors, putting on a load of clothes to wash, cleaning the kitchen, etc.) would be good.....but don't draw attention to it as if you want her to notice that you are doing it for her. The more you say, the worse it will cause her to act. She will notice, but at first she will resent it, b/c it is the thought process of the WAW that makes no sense to the LBH. If she asks why you are doing it, just tell her you want to do your share around the house and let it go at that.

She is very unhappy with her life and she is going through some thought process that you cannot understand. She is trying to figure out what she really wants and she thinks she knows but then she gets confused and feels guilty, etc. That is one reason you never know what to expect from her. She thought she had her plan all worked out in her mind. But then, she gets frustrated and her feelings get so messed up and she is angry, etc. Of course, you are too, but as others have warned you....to her, it is all about HER right now. All she can think about is how unhappy she is in this M. She feels trapped and she wants freedom. She can't even think about what is best for her children b/c of the "fog" she is in. She will try to convence herself that the kids will be fine, etc. and that you would be better off without her.......all WAW's think that way.

I think the more you could arrange to be away with the kids while she is home, the better......for right now. She is not going to be interested in family days together etc. for quite some time yet. So, spend time with the kids and plan to be away as much as possible while she is home. When that is not possible, then spend your time in another room in the house. Do as much as you can to help with the kids at night. When you are around her, be polite (not cold), upbeat, everything like the DR book tells you. Use that time alone in your bedroom to read that book over and over.

You must stop analyzing everything she says and does or it will drive you crazy. You never thought about any of that stuff before. That is what is so crazy to us WAW's......the LBH never seem to listen or pay any attention to our needs until they thought they would loose us......then it is like they hang onto every word and move we make and analize it. You have to relax and stay cool. You must GAL and start improving yourself. Take care of yourself. All this other advice people have given you is great and I can't really add anymore to that.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1226652#Post1226652

Originally Posted by waw1978
I started out feeling and saying many of the things your WAW is....

Stop trying to figure out what is going on in her head. She is very confused and hurting, just as much as you. She may be saying that its over but she is giving signs that she still has doubts. Work the DB program. Focus on you. Stop trying to control her and the situation. Let her have space, as much space and time as possible. Do not mention divorce or lawyers that will do nothing but irritate the situation. Plus if you start making these idle threats you may find yourself getting a divorce and not just talking about one. If you do not want a D wait for her to make the advances in that direction and even then make it clear that is not what you want or think would be right in your situation. I guess my main point before I get more info is to not give up. I know this is a sucky time and you are a mess but you need to DB and give your WAW time to see your 180's. Plant the seeds of doubt. See what parts you played in this and do your best to work on them if you want to save the M. Your WAW will have to own up to her parts too but it's got to start somewhere.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1246844#Post1246844

Originally Posted by Sandi2
You are feeling sorry for yourself.

Your pride is hurt....that is obvious. But I don't think (speaking as a WAW) that is the intentions.....hurting the H's pride. Your pride is hurt b/c she has turned to OM and talked about your M to somebody else. There is no easy way for a W to leave a M without hurt feelings. I just wished you could see past yourself to understand this is not reality and she is not "winning" here. You must stop saying things along that line. It is not helping yourself but instead, it is keeping the anger stirred up. You won't begin to start doing positive things until you start to cool the anger.

She may want this to be real for her....but what she dreams of and what will really happen are two entirely different worlds. You have to decide if she is worth fighting for and if she is then do it in the right way....which is DR.


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Originally Posted by Sandi2
you just keep pressing and pressing and pressing. You don't get it! How can we make you see that she does not want a R with you now? Sorry to be so plain, but you won't listen. She wants to feel free and you are treating her like she is still your W....which she is, but she doesn't want to feel like she is your W....that is the point. She wants to be free and she doesn't want you controlling her life.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1246456#Post1246456

Originally Posted by saffie
Rather than me type a bad description of it here type cognitive behavioral Therapy into google. it is a well known and growing area that helps you recognize your behavior. Once you can recognize it you then can try to change it if you need to. that is a very crude description. I have found it very very good. It was hard in the beginning but it is getting easier now and has really helped me - not just with my M - but also with stopping my self destructive behavior. I can now analyze my thoughts and instead of letting them rule me and me ruminating on things incessantly to no purpose I will deal with things in a positive way and if I can't deal with something i recognize that and move on until I can deal with it.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1248778#Post1248778


Originally Posted by rob1231
you have GOT to back off. Your posts are all about your W - either focused on what she does, or focused on how you react to what she does.

Look at it this way. Assume that your W is not married to you. Let go, for the time being, of all of those claims you believe you have on her time and affection. Instead, think of it as if you are two friends who MIGHT have a more meaningful R develop.

First, how do you act towards her? Do you demand to know who she sees and what she does? Do you argue and second-guess? Or do you take it slow and easy, building on your friendship with care and thoughtfulness?

Second, what about you? Are you an interesting, confident, happy, appealing individual? Are you someone that a woman would hang around and say "Now THIS is a guy I want to be in a relationship with?" Do you have a "Life" apart from your M, that helps you bring new and exciting experiences into your relationships with everyone you meet? Do you exude Positive Mental Attitude to people around you?

Build a foundation for a future relationship, and stop undermining what's left of the existing one with your pursuing behaviors.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1251780#Post1251780

Originally Posted by sandi2
I sure hope that your W is getting her act together. I must tell you that it sure did not come overnight for me. It was a very hard decision to make b/c I did not have any yearning for my H at all. It was more of what I knew I had to do morally right and hope that the "feelings" toward my H would follow. We are back to where we were before OM, etc. started up in my life, but we need to be better than that.

I do think your W showing the pictures may have been a positive sign. Don't read too much into it and set yourself up for disappointment. Some days I would think I could make a go of my M and I would resolve to try harder, but then in a matter of hours all of that would fall through and I would be right back where I was. I don't say that trying to discourage you, only to keep you realistic. Hopefully, if she is thinking that she will do away with the OM and forget the D and stay in the M....then she is making positive baby steps. On the other hand, she may just have been in a friendlier mood that day. You know, if she has fully made up her mind to D you, then she may think that there is nothing that is going to stop her and that she is showing you she can be "friends" and still get D. So.....stay "real" friend.....I know it hurts like hell, but don't get your hopes up there too high. That is one of the things I've noticed about all LBS....they cling to every word and every little action, hoping it is a "sign" that everything is going to be okay. a lot of times, it doesn't mean anything, sweetie, so just hang in there. Give God time to work on her, believe me....He can---if she will listen to Him and do what she needs to do to fix her heart right with Him. I bet every time she goes to church, it just eats her insides up. It did me.

So, don't give up. Keep talking to us.


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Originally Posted by LH19
In terms of her feeling differently -- when you first met she didn't instantly want to marry you, then you got married and she didn't want to leave you, then at some point she did want to leave you. She was stubborn the whole time, made three decisions there and changed her feelings about the first two. That should prove to you that her feelings do change, and despite how she feels now, or what she says now, she may feel and do completely different things in the future. You have hard evidence of that.


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Originally Posted by Gekko
A few thoughts:

Nesting - I considered it at first but realized pretty quick it is not the way the go. I think part of it is just delaying the inevitable to an extent. Don't agree to it. She can move out if she wants space. Don't move out. Stay in the MB come hell or high water during the IHS. And hell may come knocking. Don't leave man.

MC - stop going. It's not going to help right now. Tell W you don't think it will help right now if she wants to know why you decline. Leave it at that. No R talks. STFU.

IC - keep going. I would not be talking to your W about what is discussed in IC or that you are even going to IC. It's for you, not her. STFU.


Your W has been in an EA/PA for a year or longer. You don't think you caught it on Day 1 right? First evidence November '21 means it started much earlier in all likelihood. Still going strong you say?

About getting caught up in the "I'm not going to be the one to end the MR/file D/etc." syndrome. Look I get this is a DB site. Maybe some feel better years later, being able to say "hey I wasn't the one to end it..." "I was the one who tried..." I get it. I didn't file. There was no EA/PA as far as I knew and I was digging. I had a WAW. It took her about 5 months to file after BD. She said several times "we need to file" and I said I wasn't filing anything, go ahead and file if you want. I moved at my pace during the whole process. I've got my thoughts re filing in an EA/PA sitch but they wouldn't exactly be in line with DBing per se.

Strength is mental toughness and emotional control. Establishing and enforcing boundaries. Having a plan and executing. Being decisive. Not accepting less than what you believe you deserve or want. Self-evaluating and improving where necessary. Answering the call to adventure. It is defined by your actions in every instance in life you encounter.

Read Sandi's Rules. It's a long list I know. Look, what can really help you achieve or comply with them, at least significantly, is to focus on one thing - GAL. As Steve would say, you are "BUSY BUSY BUSY". If you are in full-on GAL mode, you will not have much time with or exposure to W to torpedo yourself with self-inflicted Rule violations. But remember GAL is for YOU. So are 180's. These changes are not to win W back and if you have that mindset she is likely to sniff it out quick. If you have the mindset of "showing off" your 180's or GAL to the W, she'll probably know it's just tactics. You truly have to do these things for YOU and NGAF whether she even notices. You can't be looking to her for approval of what the New Doug is doing. There is much hand-wringing about "but if we're not living together how will she ever see my 180's!!??" You have to get to the place where you don't care. You're working on you, not her.

I see you've got some stuff about a joint checking acct., boob job, who gets the house, etc. You have got to get with a L and get a game plan together. How do you define yourself? Would you say you are pretty intelligent? Smart guys get with a L and game plan based on the law and the details of their sitch. Get two steps ahead of W , don't be lagging my friend.

Hang in there buddy.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2937431#Post2937431

Originally Posted by PeterB
I told her that if she is interested in R, she will also have to work on herself too.
Originally Posted by LH19
The three biggest things she's dealing with right now are fear and uncertainty about the future, guilt for what she's doing to you and your son, and anger and resentment over your role in pushing her to this point.

Everything you do right now is going to make her either more resentful, or less resentful.

If you increase her guilt, by blaming, shaming, or making her responsible for your emotional state, she's going to resent you more.

If you give her space, it’s going to make her less resentful.

If you live your own life, and are happy and joyful for your own sake, it’s going to make her less resentful.

If you are respectful in your communications with her, but not intimate, it’s going to make her less resentful.

*Eventually* she will burn through that big pile of resentment.

*Eventually* she will process her anger at you and it will dissipate.

UNTIL she goes through both of those processes, she will not see you as anything other than she believes you to be based on her prior training.

WHILE she is processing her anger and resentment, YOU work on your changes. You do it slowly and methodically *for you*.

If you're a 2 today, you don't focus on being a 10, you focus on being a 3. Then you focus on being a 4. You be kind to yourself.

While her anger and resentment are burning down, your changes are building up.

When eventually she's had enough time and space that she can SEE YOU again, she'll be surprised by what she sees, and she'll question for the first time the assumptions she has held about you.

THAT is the beginning of your opportunity to turn things around, but you CANNOT control how long it will take her to process her anger and resentment, and you CANNOT accelerate it.

Buckle your seatbelt, it’s a marathon and you have to be patient and surrender to the fact that this relationship is NOT something you can control right now.

That's an uncomfortable feeling, but the sooner you own that fact, the better you'll do.

Originally Posted by PeterB
She went off the rails - "what have I done?", "it's all you", "you have treated me poorly", "i have done nothing wrong", "you are not owning up to your problems" etc.
Originally Posted by LH19
This is a marathon, not a sprint. You have to play the long game.

Even if you do everything 100% perfectly starting today, this is still a months/years-long turnaround.

When you live with someone, there is a huge motivation to keep the peace. Everyone wants peace in their lives. If you blew up over every little thing that happened between you, you would both be miserable.

As such, you push things down and gloss over them as you live together, and the consequence of that is that resentment builds.

If resentment builds too much over time, eventually it becomes "too much" and people start contemplating an exit from the relationship. During this period, the relationship is really "on trial" but the other party is usually totally unaware of it.

Once the trial is over and the person has more or less resolved to leave, you're on the tail end of a year’s long process. It goes "things are overall good, but this stuff is annoying" -> "These things are really annoying but not bad enough that I want to leave" -> "These things are really annoying and I don't know if I can stay" -> "These things are really annoying and now I have to get out"

Unfortunately, in many cases the "annoying things" were never even articulated, or if they were, not with enough gravity. Once the "I need to leave" point is reached, whatever those things are get magnified and new ones get invented to help convince the departing partner that they are making the right choice, fort an act in self-reinforcement which sometimes requires lots of fabrication.

Over time, you have *trained each other* what to expect from the other. She knows how you will react to any given situation, what you will say, how you will act, and she has decided that's not compatible with what she wants.

If you decide you don't want that either, and decide to make a change for yourself, initially she'll think you're just doing it as a gambit to get her back and as soon as she lets her guard down, you'll revert to who you "really are" in terms of who you've trained her that you are.

In order to turn this around she needs to *fully believe* that you've changed, and that you're not doing it just to get her back.

How do you convince her of that?

(1) Repetition, lots and lots of repetition in terms of reacting differently, acting differently, than you have historically.

(2) Acting differently when no one is looking

(3) Finding a life for your new self that doesn't require her. That's the only way you make it credible that your changes are for you. She won't even see them until she believes that you don't need her.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2937609#Post2937609


Originally Posted by LH19
Peter what you are doing is normal. You married your W for a reason. You started a family for a reason. It is normal not to want to lose what you had. I am guessing at one point your W was a good partner? My guess is you are hoping that someday she could be that partner again? This can happen again but unfortunately it takes way longer than people want and can handle. Right now your W is not happy and is 100% convinced that you are standing in the way of her happiness. She has to figure it out for herself whether that is true or not. The best way to help that along is to give her as much time and space as you possibly can. You can never give too much space in these situations.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2937759#Post2937759

Originally Posted by Rockon
W was over here once ( I looked good, was dressed sharp and had quiet confident masculine energy going) recently. I noticed her subconsciously look me up and down not say a word but she moaned and I did not comment.
Originally Posted by Mach1
Make no mistake...

You doing that is going to stir up some anger in her...

She's gonna wonder why it had to come to this for you to be different....

Create a little mystery (not in a Scooby-Doo kinda way either).

Don't be so available when you know she is going to be around.

If you are like that and she shows up, suddenly have an appointment that you have to attend.

Let her wonder what you are doing....

Let her question her choices and decisions about you.

Her anger is going to be with herself more than it is with you.

Yet, you will feel the wrath at times.

All that anger HAS to come out at some point before things can change...

Anger is good though. Just make sure that you use your anger as a shield instead of a sword....




The trick is.....

That you are doing that because it's who you want to be. NOT because you want to solely affect her.

A WAS can smell fake like a drug dog can sniff out a Cheech and Chong movie set...

Understand ?

Changes are for YOU and you alone....

And they have to be consistent. IF you change for her, then there is no consistency in them...

This isn't a game, yet it will play like one....



You can't lead when you are constantly looking over your shoulder to see who is following....


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2937782#Post2937782

Originally Posted by BL42
Nice job looking good, dressing well, and being confident. Curious why she's over again? It seems to be frequent? Next time maybe switch it up a bit and when she texts to stop by respond "Not today, I'm out with a friend."


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2938015#Post2938015

Originally Posted by LH19
This is very hard. Maybe the hardest thing you will ever do. Best thing to do is to process these emotions. When you are alone cry, beat your pillow, scream etc. whatever it takes.

The hardest thing is understand you have zero control of the outcome and can feel your family slipping away. The second hardest thing is understanding that everything you should be doing is counterintuitive than what feels right to you. You can not nice your W back. You absolutely should not be her emotional support system.

You are doing great with Gal but it’s very obvious you are looking for clues that she is softening. Your best chance for reconciliation is to go as far as you can in the opposite direction. The longer that takes the more time it gives her to solidify her position with other male.

You want her to be unsure where she stands with you.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2937824#Post2937824

Originally Posted by Kind18
Sorry you’re here. There’s been thousands before you, and there will be thousands after you.

It won’t be okay today… or tomorrow… or next month. But one day, it will all be okay.

I’ll add some more when I’m not working, yet just wanted to make a quick comment around the “your next wife can thank me” and the comments about how you threw it away by not agreeing to marriage counselling before your trip away.

It’s all BS. If you’d gone to MC then, she would have used it to start separation. Or she would have said “I can’t believe you thought we could fix your problems in our marriage in two weeks, you don’t care about me.”

It’s really important to know that whatever you do, you’re in the wrong. You could be the best husband, person and father in the world - and she would still blame you for everything.

Beg - she’ll tell you you’re weak. Walk away - she’ll tell everyone you didn’t try. Agree with her on everything, you’re just trying to trick her into coming back. Disagree with her on everything, and you’re an [censored] and that is why she has to leave.

NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO, YOU ARE WRONG, SHE IS RIGHT AND SHE WILL SEEK VALIDATION FROM EVERYONE THAT THIS IS YOUR FAULT. You have to learn to be okay with that.

Learn to disconnect. Follow DB principles. Accept she’s going to be angry sometimes. And do not disappear down the tunnel where you are terrified of every interaction like each word you say could be the final nail in the coffin. It’s not like that, and probably no matter what you do, she’s going to do what she’s going to do. Don’t live or interact or respond through fear.

Best of luck. Stop worrying about her, and start worrying about you.

As Steve said, best thing you can do is walk the other way happily. If she realizes what she’s throwing away she might come around, and if she doesn’t … you’re already a long way down the road to starting your new life.

I’d think seriously about kicking her out of your bedroom. No sex! If she doesn’t want to be your wife, she can sleep on the couch IMHO. “I’m hearing that you don’t want me as your husband. I’m respecting your wishes. It’s best you sleep on the couch from now on.” And then leave the house before she starts an argument.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2280129#Post2280129


Originally Posted by zig
Originally Posted By: StubbornDyke

What's my mantra? Listen, observe, validate, think "isn't that interesting?" and STFU. So far, so good. I'm sure I'll need duct tape before long.


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Originally Posted by zig
Things will get better and better, and even though we are always striving to be in a more happier place, it's only by truly being okay with where we are that we can take the next step.

You're stepping all the time - forward.

and just like all of you can see my steps when i can't feel them at all, we can see yours smile

let it go and embrace the beauty that comes our way..

you just stated the crux of the law of attraction. the key is ( and it is the same message in DB'ing) to be happy anyway, no matter what is going on. to always look for and strive for the best place in one's thoughts and feelings and let the rest work itself out. if in the moment the best place is full of pain and sadness, to even embrace that and say to oneself - it's ok, this is where i am and things are getting better even though i don't always SEE that they are, i can trust that they are


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Originally Posted by kml
Great quote on FB:

"We either make ourselves miserable or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same”


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Originally Posted by Laurie
Validating is what we do when we behave and respond in ways that tell the other person their feelings and thoughts are very important to us. (FYI - We can validate someone without necessarily agreeing with them.)

How can we communicate validation? Let me run down some practical approaches:

1. Good eye contact

2. Body turned toward the speaker

3. Relaxed and focused, not fidgety & impatient

4. Let them speak without interruption.

5. Avoid jumping in to correct, defend and/or explain yourself. Just listen!

6. Physcially acknowledge what they are saying (nod, lean forward) and/or verbally acknowledge (checking in with an "OK", "Uh-huh", or "yes" at appropriate times.)

7. Acknowledge their feelings ("Mary, you're really irritated that I forgot the garbage? I understand that could irritate you." "You told me you're hurt and I hear it in your voice." "You're frustrated about your job? It sounds like it frustrates you!")

8. Respond with empathy and remorse. ("I am so sorry our situation has caused so much pain for you." "I can see that I have done some things to cause much of your anger right now. I am sorry." "I am beginning to understand how important [source of her anger/pain] was to you. It was insensitive of me not to see this earlier.")

9. Asking questions in response to what was said. ("I just heard you say I made you angry. I'd like to understand, so could tell me more how I did that?" "I see you're upset and I'd really like to know what happened for you to feel this way?")

I hope this is a helpful start. In Michele's "Keeping Love Alive" series, she reviews more completely how to communicate well with each other. It would be very helpful and I'd recommend it!


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Originally Posted by No Longer BH
I wanted to take a few moments and post my thoughts on my journey. Saturday it will be a year ago that he moved out. A year ago that my life completely changed and the fairy tale ended. I can remember believing that I could not live with out him, that I would shrivel up and die. Then as time passed, I knew I would survive, but still didnt really want to if he wasnt going to be there. Those feelings then transitioned into not wanting him to survive, to finally where I am today - only thinking of him as a sad little man that is truly broken.

I have found myself in this journey and have found my happiness. You never truly see how lonely you are in an empty relationship until others step in and give you the love you were missing. I thought when OEO left me I would never be loved again. Well the truth is I am now loved more than ever, my definition has just been changed. I have connected with my friends in a true and meaningful way that was lacking before. I always reserved that love for my husband. Now I know better.

In the begining I focused only on what a wonderful marriage I was losing. I could not understand how he could break us apart when we were so obviously soul mates. Later, I only focused on the negative aspects of our relationship. How could I have been so blind to how selfish this man has always been??? Now I realized that for 17 out of our 20 years together, there were good and bad. I am glad to have expierence the positives with him, and am trying to learn from the negatives, both his and mine. I learned what to look for next time around and what to stand up for as well. No longer will I play second fiddle to my own needs. No longer will I allow my boundaries to be crossed. They are there to protect me and my love that I give out.

From this site I have learned how to focus one minute at a time, then one hour, one day, one whatever. I learned to do what I needed to do just to cope and then to grow and finally to live. I am not the same person he left. I am better an more fulfilled. Ironic how the person he left bloosomed back into the person he fell in love with, but this time even stronger and healthier. He put me into a crisis that forced me to learn. It made me see the things in myself that I didnt like and then change them. I am glad I was given that gift, still hate the paper it came in. He, on the other hand, has digressed and has fallen even further. He craves the "fun" friends as to the meaningful ones. THey are easier to maintain and require little giving. I know that I am the last person he will have truly bonded with because he no longer is capable of be able to give of himself in that way. It is sad for him, but it actually helps me to know that I was the best thing that happend to him and he will never have me again. It gives me closure to know this and that I will be the one who is better off.....h#ll, I already am.

Its funny, when I first came here I refused to believe that my husband was following the same script as everyone else. I thought to the core of my being that he truly was different......didnt we all though? I got the same ILYNILWY speech that everyone got. I was told how this was all my fault just like everyone else. I even found out about there being an OP, just like most of us here do. For some reason, it still didnt click. For any newbies that might read this, they are all the same, they truly are. What finally convinced me was when we were having a conversation and he told me that he just had not been happy in the marriage for over ten years. I smiled inside and thought to myself "I was wondering when that little speech was going to happen. Guess now it has."

The ugliness that they exhibit is pretty standard as well. When I filed for divorce because he refused to attend MC with me and told me he wanted our R over with, he pulled his money and tried to cut me off. When I would act like his friend in hopes of establishing R, he was your typical cake eater.....loving the attention both women were giving to him. He would lie to my face, steal things from the house, and always play the victum no matter what the situation was. H#ll, I was fighting cancer and he STILL managed to make everything about him. Then, when I finally went NC, darker than the blackest night, wow did the meaness start.....threatening to try and take my child away from me, draining every penny from the bank account, trying to force the home into foreclosure, utilities getting disconnected.....its a wonder I didnt go mad. If I would not have had this site, I probably would have crumbled into a million pieces. Instead, all the strong LBS here helped me to keep standing and to keep fighting.

So here I am....a year later. No longer affraid to get divorced, actually looking forward to it. He, on the other hand, has now become the one to drag things out. Gee, isnt that in MLC the book as well? Once reality starts to set in on what divorce life is going to look like, the MLCers try and avoid facing it because it becomes too overwhelming for them. <Sigh> Guess it will eventually get done, that is what my lawyer is for. I need to read the script again because I dont know what comes next. From what I remember it is one of two things......he marries his OW as soon as possible and lives an empty, sad, shallow life that eventually becomes full of regret......or........they crash and burn and he shows up on my doorstep begging for a second chance (that is if I dont already have someone else). These two situations I have prepared for and both are the same - dont focus on his life at all, only focus on mine. He is no longer allowed to be a visitor in my kingdom. This princess deserves a prince and when I am ready, I will find him. Enlighten Fools my not apply!


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2938203#Post2938203

Originally Posted by DnJ
Logic, reason, the Lord, kids, etc. will not turn her around, will not wake her up. In fact, all of that is pressure and she will run in the opposite direction.

Whichever direction her life is headed is on her. Leave it with her!

What I’m referring to is to not manipulate her path. A LBS making personal changes and decisions in an effort to directly affect the spouse’s path usually prolongs the spouse’s journey. At best the efforts is neutral, at worst disastrous. No one is wise enough to see all ends. And you certainly do not want the responsibility of her outcome heaped upon you.

The LBS let’s go, stands, and moves forward. Your decisions are to be best for your interests; you are the most important person in this equation. Oftentimes the LBS pretzels themselves and will walk on eggshells in an effort to smooth things over and try to get the situation back to what it once was. Best to focus on you. Let go, live your life, and let her run to catch up. If that is indeed what comes to pass.

You are just starting out, and I get it, you want to do something to move this forward. Realize doing nothing is doing something. Being still is still moving forward. When you’re calm and at peace, answers will reveal themselves.

You have been given the gift of time. Use it well.

In my opinion you are doing excellent. Posting lots, listening, seeking advice and wisdom before deciding anything and/or putting decisions into action.

The future is unknown and unwritten. Have faith my friend.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2938400#Post2938400

Originally Posted by BL42
Listen very closely. W is going to be mad at you no matter what you do. She is likely feeling guilty and bad about herself due to her actions and will project that on you.

Even if you walked on eggshells and tried to appease her 110% she's still going to lash out at you for something. One example on here we used recently is it's her birthday and you get her a card/present she'll be upset because she told you she needs space and is done and you're not listening, but if you don't get anything for her she'll use it as an example of how you don't care and it justifies her affair/leaving.

Your goal IS NOT to avoid making her mad. Your goal is to do what's best for you and your kids.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2938435#Post2938435

Originally Posted by Rockon
How do you talk to your kids about the sitch?
Originally Posted by DnJ
My kids were embroiled into my situation right from bomb drop. D15, S17, S19, S21 (ages at BD) were at the table when Mom pulled the pin and toss the grenade into the middle of Thanksgiving Supper.

A few days later, W dropped by in the morning to discuss “her” speedy divorce plans. It was then, at 9:30 am, that she let me and my son know that she consummated her affair and we could get divorced. In my locale, there is a one year cooldown period, unless there is physical abuse, emotional abuse, or adultery.

Adultery is difficult to prove and win in litigation, and therefore that charge seldom is ever brought forth or convicted upon. However, W wanted it, and demanded she be charged. In fact, she included that demand in her draft of the separation agreement, stating the legal statute, and wanted to plead guilty. She did not want the one year cooldown period. Turns out she had no plans to marry OM, and still hasn’t. She actually has stated to the kids’ questioning of her regarding that - “Are you crazy? I’m not going to marry him.” That was right in front of OM.

We were legally separated in 60 days from BD. And W had 30 days of light duties during this time from her vein stripping surgery, so no lawyer visits during that time. The agreement was revised only once. During the revision, I had my lawyer remove the adultery stipulation and W didn’t catch it. I didn’t want to go to court and charge her. Boy oh boy, was she mad when she found out it was removed.

Anyhow, as you can see, my kids were front row. And in truth, they got the brunt of Mom’s anger. She saw her fifteen year old daughter as a rival. She unloaded such ferocity at S17. See tossed them aside with her Thanksgiving speech: “DnJ, you get the house, the cars, and the kids. Unless you don’t want them, then I guess I’ll have to take them.” Aghast doesn’t quite do it justice; what all eight of us felt. Me, my parents, and kids were all dumbfounded.

I talked to my kids lots! I answered any and all their questions. They have questions, and they will get answers. If not from you, they from who or where? Or they will just make up an answer. Out of the options, you are the best one. So be their best option. Always.

I was factual. And did not demonized their Mom.

Remember, kids are half of each parent. They already question their half of the genes and if they are somehow destined for a similar path. My kids did. Remind them, they are half of you too. And they have choice.

Our job is not to facilitate the relationship between the other parent and kid(s); our job is to not destroy it.

Your query asks “how” and not what to tell your kids. I find that wise.

Speak to them clearly, openly, sincerely, and above all - honestly.

If you cannot speak about something that day. Tell them. Look, I am sorry, I just cannot talk about that right now. Let’s speak tomorrow. (And ensure you do!)

I found gentle steering worked well. My kids were pretty much adults. Telling them what to do stopped working years ago. I gently steered towards understanding, forgiveness, etc.

Kids want to, and will, emulate and follow a good lead. (After the obligatory rebellious stage. smile )

My case was rather extreme with their Mom leading a path that none of them would ever want their partner/spouse doing to them. There were so many conversation over the years. You got to keep your ego out of it, and stick to the facts.

Lots of empathy towards the kids’ feelings too. That’s a difficult thing when you are run through the wringer yourself. Letting them lead the conversation will bring up the pertinent items which need to be discussed. There really is not much prompting once things get rolling along.

Ha, I was just remembering having the sex and birth control talk with my daughter. LOL. I had her sit on the opposite end of the couch. I said, “this is embarrassing. You look that way (away from me) and I’ll look this way (away from her)”. I then made the show of taking a deep breath and purposely blurted out “I want to talk about dating and boinking and birth control.”

We both laughed. It was a perfect ice breaker. We had several good conversations. I authorized the underage prescription for the pill. Daughter was unlikely to bring that request up to me, and we certainly didn’t need any unplanned pregnancy.

Such is this situation you are in. Embarrassing, hurtful, grief-ridden, etc. And uplifting, hopeful, forgiving, better not bitter, compassion, and such. Believe me, you have an incredible influence upon your children. Utilize it well, and steer gently.

The biggest thing is talking about it. Anything buried alive will come back to haunt later in life.

Well, a little more than I set out to type. Hope it helps.

D


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2938469#Post2938469

Originally Posted by Kind18
It sounds like you’re struggling.

The reason you are struggling is the power struggle between the emotional and intelligent parts of your brain.

At the moment, your emotional brain and thoughts are calling the shots, so intelligent brain isn’t getting a say and you’re spiraling out of control.

Don’t let your emotions control your thoughts/decisions. Acknowledge them, process them, but learn to identify that they are not going to give you good outcomes and they need to be replaced with measured, reasoned thoughts and behaviors.

“I can’t do this, it’s just too hard, I miss her so much.”

STOP SIGN IMAGERY

“I’m allowing emotion to control my thoughts.”

“I most probably will get through all of this and be okay.”

“I acknowledge I feel crap. But I still need to make smart decisions.”

“Perhaps because I’m emotional, I’ll redirect. I’m going to go for a run or gym session, have some good food, and then reconsider my problem with strength and the intelligent half of my brain.”

Emotions are fine. But don’t let them influence thoughts, behaviors and outcomes.


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Originally Posted by Rockon
I don’t know how to do this.
Originally Posted by DnJ
Just breathe.

It’s perfectly normal to struggle.

Focusing on you, GAL, etc, are all tools to help you work towards detachment; as well as many other positive goals.

Detaching is the single most best thing you can do for your situation. To that end, I find it helps to understand what emotional detachment/attachment is.

In these situations, the LBS is uncontrollably dragged round by their feelings. Feelings that are uncontrollable triggered by their spouse’s words, actions, behaviours, etc. It is the uncontrollable aspect that makes it attachment and it hurt so very much.

Detachment is not being dragged around by whatever your spouse does or says. Think of this like a car you are tied to. Let go, or be dragged.

Detachment is not the ceasing of your emotions, that is indifference and comes after detachment. With detachment you will still feel hurt, sad, angry, and such; just not uncontrollably. You are able to shore up your emotions, and let them out at more convenient times. By the way, that is a very important part, scheduling say five or ten minutes to have a good cry when you wake up, then get up, shower, and go about your day. Most likely need to have a few schedule times in a day for a while until you can whittle those down to one and eventually none.

You control you. Your thoughts, actions, and reactions. That’s it. And with those three, you exert influence over everything else. As was said, right now this is a battle between intellect and emotions. You cannot direct control your emotions, only influence them. So you control thoughts and actions.

This is basically rationalizing the triggers of those emotions. For example, feelings of dread from perhaps having to lead a single life. Whenever you think about being single, or some actions from W brings that to the fore, you are triggered to feel dread. You have a tied between dread and being single. Rationalizing this tie, uncouples the feeling from the initiating thought or action.

There are a few ways to rewire, well more accurately unwire, triggers. Continuing our example, purposefully think about being single while doing an enjoyable activity. Say you’re out for a nice stroll or run. Out in the sunshine and just enjoying it. Thinking about being single then will have less “dragging” power, and you start to tie the current enjoyment feeling to being single. This will counteract and dissuade the feelings of dread.

Another tactic is to explore the possible future event (being single) when fully engaged intellectually. Seeing how it is not all doom and gloom. Seeing some of the benefits of the single life. This limits emotional response and really works to sever that tie to the the trigger.

The emotional journey takes time. Time is your best friend and best ally during all this. (I know it doesn’t feel like it right now.)

Feelings are fleeting. They initiate quickly and extinguish quickly. Unless they are reinforced.

Lots of times our emotions get caught up in a feedback loop. Pretty well known one is fight or flight. You know, a tiger attacks, and we gain an uncontrolled boost to fight or flee. An evolutionary life saving adaption. BD is a huge emotional stressor and one’s fight or flight mechanism kicks right into high gear. And stays there. So much adrenaline for so long; loosing weight; lack of sleep. Problem is, the “tiger” hasn’t been around for weeks/months; yet we are still stuck in that mechanism. Struggling.

One cannot detach when they are tightly hanging on.

Learning how to let go take time too. Ah time, that four letter word. smile


For your information, and some encouragement, I was utterly destroyed for two months after my W left. Man, it was horrible. Detachment came around three months in. I awoke from a horrible hellfire nightmare of W’s eternal damnation. Right then, at 2:00 am, in complete darkness, I got out of bed, fell to my knees, and gave her to God. I cannot control her. I cannot fix her. (And who am I to say she needs fixing.)

That night was miraculous. In a most human hubris I prayed and begged God to forgive my wife. Imagine that. Me, a wee mortal begging the almighty to forgive her. And in that, I realized I had.

Much awoke that night. Let go or be dragged. Be better not bitter. Compassion and understanding. No manipulation of her path. And so on. One of the pivotal moments of my journey. That was the last bad night sleep I had.


Stay strong. You were forced upon a path not of your choice. And you’re doing fine.

D


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Originally Posted by DW17
...I can also move the rest of her stuff downstairs
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Yes. Move it. Do not let your anger control you. Do it respectfully like you would for a friend. (IE don't throw it in a big pile etc).
Originally Posted by BL42
If you're going to pack up her stuff and move it, I'd consider doing it at a time related to her infidelity for the most impact.

For example, last night while she was sleeping over at OM's house to take him to the airport in the early morning would've been the perfect time. Her going off to do that only to walk back into your house and see her stuff all packed up. If she already returned - and let us know how that went - then maybe another time such as one of her Saturday out all night "sleeping over at a friend's place" routines.

Others here might say you should do it for you and you alone, and not at all for her reaction - and I get that - but always thought the immediacy of the action/consequence might matter. E.g., training a pet not to mess in the house...you can't tell them "no!" the next day, you've got to catch them right away.

I've often wished I'd packed up my wife's stuff in a box and left it on the back porch while she was "working late" with OM1 and have her come back late night while the kids and I were already asleep with the doors locked and a note that said "I know what you're doing. Here are your things. Go stay at your mother's house" while after me and the kids. I honestly don't think it would've changed the end result of the marriage/D, but it sure would've made me feel a whole lot stronger a whole lot sooner, and perhaps helped speed up my journey.

Although perhaps I'm projecting my fantasy onto your sitch, so others can feel free to disagree. Just a thought.


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Originally Posted by LH19
The only real help you need to make it clear, solid, boundaries and being hard-core about what you want and need. People respond to that. Being an emotional chameleon, "trying" to be detached doesn't work. Set boundaries, set ultimatums. This is hard, but, it helps avoid all the back and forth. Does she want to be married to you or not? Thus far she said she wants a separation or a divorce. Act on that. If you want something else, state it. You can say, "If you want to work on this marriage, fine, if you don't, I have some decisions to make in the next few weeks." Strength and clarity are attractive.

The longer this drags on, the weaker your position becomes. You will compromise, make yourself smaller, meet her needs and then she'll walk all over you. Don't wait for her to act. Time to take control back.

Originally Posted by LH19
In my experience, unless you are a complete jerk, changing yourself, becoming your "best" self, doing 180's don't really last. Eventually you will revert to who you basically are. I've seen it on these boards before - intense personal change that lasts for 12, 18 or 24 mos and then you slip back. Sorry to say this, but it's inevitable. The divorce gets busted and then, 2 yrs later they are back on the boards and the marriage is toast. Personal change is super hard. If you're wife doesn't like who you are, might as well end it sooner than later. Again, if you're a real jerk and need serious help, get it. If you're just a normal guy, you aren't going to turn into superman. You can't save this marriage alone. Two people need to compromise and work at it. You will hear in the forums that 180's and being solution oriented are really just emergency measures to get their attention. GAL is for your own sanity. The real hard work of repairing a marriage is 50/50 and In the end, she has to want the marriage as much as you do.
Originally Posted by Mach1
IMO...That is because the changes are made with the sole intention of just getting their marriage back.

All of that needs to be done with the intent of doing it ONLY for yourself. Because YOU don't like those things about you.

You cannot be authentic, with someone else's playbook.

Real change takes courage in the face of adversity, and you have to be willing to make the changes based on just purely being your authentic self. No lies, No BS...just who you are at your core.

Change only for her or the marriage ?

Yea, better save your password for here.

While I like your list above, they are all things that only becoming your true self can change.

A lot of those guys up there LH, came here and made a half a$$ attempt at DBing just so that they could relieve their guilt over their crappy behavioral patterns.

"Well, I did the DB thing and it didn't work out, so now I can revert back to being a controlling, insensitive, manipulative asshat, and this doesn't work at all"

DBing , done right, can change a person to their core, and realize the potential within...

Regardless the outcome of the marriage...


We all arrived here with a certain set of tools in our toolbox, and we did the best we could with the tools that we had to work with. DBing is about upgrading our tools, so that we don't make the same mistakes again. While you don't need a $500 drill to build a birdhouse, you certainly can't drill through concrete with a screwdriver. Try them all out, and see what works for you...

You have the time, use it to take inventory, and see if you can build for your future.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1954003

Originally Posted by Jack_Three_Beans
When you first find yourself here.


You have typed in Divorce Advice or I love you but Im not in love with you anymore into whatever search engine you use, and you found this place.

When you first find yourself reading this board there is a certain desperate craziness and wild hope. And you read and you search and search for the elusive �success�* stories and in many cases you lurk, you read, you discover a few posters you identify with and follow their story or advice. You figure out the lay of the land and how to navigate around here.

You post. You story sounds similar to countless others, and I am not making light of it, it is a sad thing that it does sound similar.

And deep inside a part of you thinks you are different than countless others.

In truth you are a unique snowflake, but in the heat of a mid-life crisis, you are similar to all the other water molecules.

There are immediate problems the new comer here in MLC should realize and damn quick:

There is NO Quick Fix to this.

You CANNOT fix this.

The �success�* stories, do not have anything more than you do or are capable of doing. They just know the DBing rules better than you�and they had patience and luck.

Your tactics are tactics, your tricks are tricks.

YOU ARE part of the problem.

You can only control yourself.

DO NOT involve your children.

YOU CAN DO THIS.

Those things you need to accept as quickly as possible.


Things you shouldn�t do but are going to do anyway:
Do not snoop.

Do not tell them I love you.

Do not talk about your relationship.

Do not confront the OP (Other Person).


The �success�* stories you have discovered have several things in common.

They are:

Patience. They outlasted their spouse�s MLC.

Support. They told family and friends, to back off about their divorce advice.

Their spouse had an MLC. Sounds strange to list but it is a common factor.

They worked on THEMSELVES. They looked in the mirror and changed their crappy, whinny, entitled behavior. They saw what was weak and broken in themselves and fixed it. AND they used the time their spouse was in their MLC to do this. They made REAL changes and became better. They knew that they helped the downfall of their marriage.

They FORGAVE. Despite the hurt and pain, they forgave their spouse. And make no mistake, this is not as easy as you think it is.


Here in MLC, there is no guarantee. Some of the best advice comes from those you would not define as a �success�* in your narrow view point. You want only the �successful�* advice, and� there is going to be little difference except in your mind, about the advice.

I made it through here. I came through the hell-fire of my wife�s MLC, not because of the advice from on high, although Snodderly�s words of encouragement helped. (Thank you Snodderly) I made it through because of the support and advice from the people who were right in the same time frame as I was. Right NEXT to me. Liss, and BrandNewDay, and Jeanette and Valentine, and Smurf, and WAS, RedUmbrella. Each one of alone in our hell but right there for each other, egging us on. Worrying about each other.

I grew because we all were helping each other and learning how to DB�not having some one spoon feed us and burping us on advice.

I wonder, if us �old wise� ones aren�t hurting you guys. By doing just that.

Birds won�t fly unless they are pushed out of the nest.


* �success� � The idea that a person is only successful because their spouse came back is ludicrous and narrow minded.
Your spouse can come back at anytime, but until YOU make changes in yourself and FOR yourself, you have failed. The REAL success are the people who came here broken, and fixed themselves, became better people, no matter if their spouse came back. And in THOSE cases, those who better themselves�their marriage is better for it. But that is not important�THEY are better for it.


Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis

Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans

Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK

TRUST THE PROCESS - Cadet

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2712601#Post2712601
Originally Posted by cadet
2016-10-26 23:49:43

It is with a heavy heart that I pass along this information.
This morning at around 3am. Our friend Jack 3 Beans (for those of you who did not know him well) passed away.
This world....will never be the same again. The world has really lost one of the good guys.

I am using the words above of EricmSant as I am really at a loss of what to say.

RIP dear friend the DB world will mourn your loss.
It was a pleasure meeting you and an honor to call you my friend.

Other Threads Started by Jack_Three_beans
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&view=started&id=10718


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2938813#Post2938813

Originally Posted by DnJ
What you say and do, and what you don’t, matters. Always. It matters to, and for, you!

I think what you meant by nothing will matter, is that nothing will change with her. (Be accurate with your wording. Your mind is listening, and crafting your reality.)

Consequences are interesting. Consequences are not you doling out punishment. They arise from actions taken from boundary violations. They are not to, and cannot be used to, control her or change her. You only control you. She controls herself. However, you can influence.

Boundaries are a tool for someone to protect themselves from very hurtful behaviour. They are for your emotional/mental health and not a modification/punishment mechanism. When one is calm and not within the hurtful situation, they craft their boundary. And decide what they will do to enforce it. “What they will do” - the actions they will take; not what the other person is to do (that is trying to control).

Usually, a boundary would/should be clearly stated as a going forward from this point type a thing. Boundaries are not to be made lightly. And expect your boundaries and resolve to be tested.

Disrespectful behaviour is definitely boundary worthy. Added benefit, it clearly illustrates when disrespect happens. Most folks will alter their behaviour when they realize they are doing it. (The influence part.) Of course, some won’t.

People will treat you as you allow them to.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2937858#Post2937858


Originally Posted by Mach1
MLC/WAS is about control... ^^^^ they kinda nailed it up there....

Since I'm about the theory of WAS/MLC... I want you to see the 'why' of DBing...



The more in control that you allow them to be, the more that they will take....

The more in control that YOU are, the more that they will spew and attempt to push buttons on you so that you can be the person that they want to leave.

You being happy, and taking back your life is NOT the person that she has described to her friends and anyone willing to listen to her BS.

IF you respond to her pushing your buttons, and you anger, and sulk...

You are essentially becoming the person that she has painted you to be. And you justify her reasons to leave the marriage...

Remove those buttons, and there will be worse days ahead like this. Yet fear not, every time something like this happens, it means you are doing a better job DBing....

It's kind of like a child throwing a tantrum because you wouldn't buy them candy.....you wouldn't give in because they aren't getting their way...

Same principal here....

I've often used an analogy of the Space Shuttle....

The booster tanks that hold fuel during take-off, because of the amount burned during that process. And once the Shuttle is in it's flight pattern, they will fall away....

Same thing now. Her anger is the booster tanks. She has anger to fuel her "takeoff", and she plans to use it to lift off away from you. She will use it to paint you as this incredible monster that stole her life away from her. It's HER truth, not necessarily yours....yet it is extremely important to validate her feelings, even if it's not your truth.


However, once you establish your flight path, you will slowly see the anger fall away.


She is going to try every trick in the book too, to spin you out .....

Remove those buttons (typically it involves the kiddos)....

Recognize it for what it is, while you are in the moment, and you will fare better than worse....

Pretty sure you've seen her flip the 'bithc switch" already. Going from rational to childlike in a split second....


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2938832#Post2938832

Originally Posted by BL42
As you're hearing her blame you for all her unhappiness and everything wrong in her life, it's vitally important you remember...

1) People's bad actions towards you are a reflection of their character, not yours.

2) Often times the WS's journey is so much more about them than the LBS.

Your W is likely dealing with deep seeded issues you could not possibly be responsible for. Please keep that in mind when she lies and gaslights you. Certainly reflect on the areas you need to improve as an individual and a partner, but also don't buy into the narrative she's trying to convince you of and shoulder all the blame.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2938892#Post2938892


Originally Posted by Kind18
Wait until next time she sees OM. Move all her stuff downstairs. Send her a text - “I want to make this marriage work, but you don’t. I respect your choices. I would prefer you find somewhere else to live. My lawyer will be in touch.” And no discussions. Don’t answer her call, her text, don’t talk to her. You engage, you lose.
Originally Posted by DW17
.... Her drinking friend came over for a minute and they went to their weekly bar trip. She said she might be back later but might not. After I put D4 to bed, it was a good opportunity for some bedroom redecorating. Moved her stuff downstairs...
Originally Posted by ”BL42”
So DW17...what was her reaction, if any, to the bedroom reorganization? Any fallout or did she just accept it?
Originally Posted by DW17
She was pissed initially. She said not to touch her stuff, called me controlling, said I was emotionally abusive, etc. She only asked one direct question, “Why did you move my stuff.” I responded “You know why and I’ll leave it at that.” She asked again and I responded the same and then left the room. She hasn’t questioned the why since. She has said a few times, including this morning how petty it was. I did not react/respond to her words.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2939000#Post2939000

Originally Posted by Vapo
For a W to recommit to marriage first she has to respect you as a man and as a person. That means you do not act out of fear of her. Because if you do, she will start using the fear against you. Womens sense these things and you will not be able to outbluff her. And you have to get rid of the fear what she might or might not do.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2939011#Post2939011


Originally Posted by Mach1
Fixed it for ya...

Too much guilt, too much needy, to much looking to her, for your answers....

Maybe something like....

I've decided that I will longer allow myself to live in an open marriage. I feel that for now, our current living situation isn't working for anyone in this house except for you, and it would be best that you find another place to live that could possibly better suit your needs.

Starting today, I will be doing household duties for the week, and until you have a firm move out date, then we will rotate these duties until the time comes that we have a legal agreement in place for the future. I have started a google calendar that will show coverage for each of us so that we can provide constant care for our children. Please use it for their benefit. (link to calendar).

I have also decided that the only communication that I will be entertaining with you is kids and bills. Please keep your emails and texts exclusively to those particular areas only. Anything other than that will be discarded and deleted.

Additionally, please refrain from anything that would resemble Parent Alienation in front of our children. not only is it illegal, it is very discerning to our children to hear that you find humor in the destruction of their family unit.

Thank you for your cooperation in this.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2939262#Post2939262

Originally Posted by LH19
Even if you do everything 100% perfectly starting today, this is still a months/years-long turnaround.

When you live with someone, there is a huge motivation to keep the peace. Everyone wants peace in their lives. If you blew up over every little thing that happened between you, you would both be miserable.

As such, you push things down and gloss over them as you live together, and the consequence of that is that resentment builds.

If resentment builds too much over time, eventually it becomes "too much" and people start contemplating an exit from the relationship. During this period, the relationship is really "on trial" but the other party is usually totally unaware of it.

Once the trial is over and the person has more or less resolved to leave, you're on the tail end of a year’s long process. It goes "things are overall good, but this stuff is annoying" -> "These things are really annoying but not bad enough that I want to leave" -> "These things are really annoying and I don't know if I can stay" -> "These things are really annoying and now I have to get out"

Unfortunately, in many cases the "annoying things" were never even articulated, or if they were, not with enough gravity. Once the "I need to leave" point is reached, whatever those things are get magnified and new ones get invented to help convince the departing partner that they are making the right choice, fort an act in self-reinforcement which sometimes requires lots of fabrication.

Over time, you have *trained each other* what to expect from the other. She knows how you will react to any given situation, what you will say, how you will act, and she has decided that's not compatible with what she wants.

If you decide you don't want that either, and decide to make a change for yourself, initially she'll think you're just doing it as a gambit to get her back and as soon as she lets her guard down, you'll revert to who you "really are" in terms of who you've trained her that you are.

In order to turn this around she needs to *fully believe* that you've changed, and that you're not doing it just to get her back.


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2939268#Post2939268

Originally Posted by Mach1
First off, welcome to the best, worst place to find yourself in...

Secondly, I agree with most of the stuff the guys have posted to you, taking a stand, doing your thing, making this about you.....

I also want you to understand that YOU have more control over this than you think that you do..

The forgiveness question is a hard one. Most guys say that they draw a line in the sand when the question is posed to them about what they would do if their spouse was to have an affair. Hell, most people in general stand in a crowd with that rhetorical question and answer that they would boot their ass to the curb....

Yet we never quite know what we are capable of until we find ourselves in the thick of it....

I will say though, IF you cannot forgive her, even if you learn of a PA, then you might as well just pull the plug. YOUR forgiveness is your key out of hell....for her, and especially for yourself....

Is she F'ing someone else ? Who knows, nobody except 2 people know that for sure, and you aren't one of them..nor is anyone here...

Does it really matter to you ? Is it a deal breaker for you ??

You need to know that.....



A lot of what I've read seems to be about you trying to "fix" the situation, and to make things better.

Men are fixers, that's what we do. If something is broken, we want to fix it.

I can tell you that no matter how hard you try, you cannot fix this, or her. It won't work that way.

It didn't break overnight, and it won't resolve overnight...the harder that you fight that, the more you are stopping the natural flow of things....

You have 25 years worth of anger and resentment, from BOTH sides of this that are coming into play, and you BOTH are going to have to work through all of that before anything can change. And it's better to be in your own head, rather than hers.....

By the time that most of us found ourselves here, the marriage that you know is dead and gone. Fighting for it is a futile waste of time.

And I am NOT saying that you cannot have a productive, loving marriage again with your current spouse, just that anything in the future will have to be an entirely new relationship with her. And that CAN happen...

However, on the other side of this....

YOU will hopefully be different...

SHE will hopefully be different...

And you will never want to try to drive that square peg into a round hole....


You might want to stop trying to control the situation by changing her or telling her that she is wrong.

You need to understand that her version of the story will vary greatly from your version of events, and you need to accept that you see this relationship in totally different perspectives.

And that, that is okay for now. Your "truths" will not match, and no matter how hard you try...her truth is hers...

You need to ask yourself how long did she carry this marriage on her back ? And now you've suddenly decided that you want to be different, and make changes....

Surely, those changes are only to get your way...right ??

She is fighting for herself, and you are fighting to "get your way".....get used to that being her mindset.

Of course she doesn't believe your changes....

Would you if the tables were turned ???

Did you make them because you are tired of being that person for yourself ? Or only so that she will notice them and come back into the relationship ?

Whatever changes that you make had better be for you and you only. You are the one that has to look at yourself in the mirror at night, and the reflection that you see needs to be real, and honest.

Changing only to get your way is manipulation and control at it finest.

Time and consistent actions are the only thing that may change her mind....

Remember this also....

You are never gonna talk your way out of something that you acted your way into.....



Just be sure of the "whys" of DBing....


Most of the advice has been geared towards leaving her....

So let me ask you this....

Why ARE you DBing ??

WHY are you choosing to stand ???

Is it truly love ??

Is it guilt ??

Is it obligation ??

What do all of those things really mean to you ? Deep down ?



Ask yourself those question. The answers will drive your stand, and your behaviors in the direction that you want to go in.

Find out who you really are when the lights are turned off at the end of the day....

That's the guy that you have to live with, to Parent with, to be a Son for, be a Husband with....

Would you want to be in a relationship with yourself ??



Anywoo......

Keep posting, ask questions.....

Things won't always be this way...that's the only promise I can make you....


Nothing has to happen today, or change today.

Don't ring any bells that can't be un-rung...

Find your peace .....that is your best place to be....


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2939269#Post2939269

Originally Posted by LH19
The three biggest things she's dealing with right now are fear and uncertainty about the future, guilt for what she's doing to you and your children, and anger and resentment over your role in pushing her to this point.

Everything you do right now is going to make her either more resentful, or less resentful.

If you increase her guilt, by blaming, shaming, or making her responsible for your emotional state, she's going to resent you more.

If you pursue her, argue with her, or try to convince her to work with you on the marriage, she's going to resent you for not letting her go and not giving her the space she wants.

If you immediately address all her historic complaints, she's going to resent the fact that you didn't do it sooner, and things had to get this bad for you to take action.

If you give her space, it’s going to make her less resentful.

If you live your own life, and are happy and joyful for your own sake, it’s going to make her less resentful.

If you are respectful in your communications with her, but not intimate, it’s going to make her less resentful.

*Eventually* she will burn through that big pile of resentment.

*Eventually* she will process her anger at you and it will dissipate.

UNTIL she goes through both of those processes, she will not see you as anything other than she believes you to be based on her prior training.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2939303#Post2939303

Originally Posted by DnJ
Yes, we all walk/walked a similar path. Grief - denial, anger, bargaining, depression, & acceptance - letting go, withdrawal, indifference, etc; it’s quite a bog to work through. Many stages, with different overlaps, different orders, for each person. Yet generally a similar path.

We’ve all felt weak laying alone thinking about what our spouse could be doing. As you’ve seen, you’re not alone, and you will get through it.

Something I read long ago, God never places more upon your shoulders than you can handle. I was like lots of folks and prayed for strength to make it though this. And it was answered. Our answers are usually not how we want them, rather how we need them. Strength is gain by enduring and working through our burden.

It’s not really about the destination, it’s the journey. It’s working and walking through that bog.

Life is a journey, and at times the path gets pretty rough. Have faith, it will smooth out.

Stay strong. Focus on you. And keep moving forward.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2939506#Post2939506

Originally Posted by Kind18
I find myself, rather frequently, commenting on Newcomer posts (especially in those first few months when people are floundering and struggling with loss of control over their life and acute grief) about the importance of exercise in promoting better mental health outcomes.

So I've decided to write this post just for general help, but also because it will allow me to lazily refer people to it - rather than typing out the same information every time.

This is information I didn't know when my wife cleaned out the house and stole my kids when I was away with work. It helped me tremendously once I understood it. I wish I'd known it at bomb drop!

The human brain is an incredibly complex, and at the same time, incredibly simple thing. Humans are different to all other species because of our highly developed frontal coretex, which is the higher thinking, reasoning, critical thinking part of our brain that allows us to analyse, predict and make informed, intellectual decisions. It is responsible for us developing into modern society, controlling the environment in which we live, and for amazing things like sending humans to the moon in rockets.

Our brain also has another part, called the amygdala. It is small, dumb and primal - and protected us millions of years ago when we were being chased by a lion. It is responsible for our fight or flight instinct. It makes you flinch when a ball is about to hit you in the face, it drops adrenaline and cortisol into your blood stream when you're at risk of being hurt, and increases your heart and respiration rate almost instantly so you can run from danger or stand and fight.

It's a short term, acute system. If you watch a gazelle being chased by a lion, it gets shocked when it realises, jumps up, and runs with incredible speed in the opposite direction to stay alive. But if you were to watch that same gazelle 10 minutes later after surviving a lion attack, it would be drinking calmly at a waterhole, or laying asleep under a tree with a normal, slow heart rate

That's how that part of our brain system is supposed to work - a sudden, huge physiological response to a threat - which disappears just as quickly as it arrived.

The problem for us humans going through a bomb drop and 2-3 year protracted and antagonistic divorce, is that reptilian part of our brain stays engaged for minutes, hours and sometimes days. Our heart rate stays up, we are full of adrenaline, and we become hyper-stimulated because we feel threatened (our normal, calm life is being uprooted).

This leads to sleep disturbance, loss of control of emotions, poor decision making, chronic stress - and bad long term mental health outcomes.

I felt like I'd been hit by a train. I couldn't sleep. I vacillated between desperately wanting to save my marriage, and wanting to set the world on fire. Unless you've been there, you can't understand the grief and uncertainty and pain associated with bomb drop and the aftermath.

My work union has a welfare and assistance arm which helps people going through difficult times in their life. I decided to reach out about two months in, and was put in touch with a counsellor who specialised in helping people in my profession (which has some unique implications with divorce).

I spoke to a counsellor who'd been helping people in my profession deal with life events (namely divorce) for forty years. He was, quite simply, a fount of knowledge.

He cited a bunch of scientific studies which had compared mental health outcomes of medicating, counselling or hard physical exercise.

Every one of those studies showed that daily, hard physical exercise was the best way to manage your mental health and to survive and thrive through an acute life event such as bomb drop and an acrimonious divorce.

Combination therapy (such as exercise paired with regular counselling) had even better outcomes, but exclusively, nothing was better than exercise. He joked I shouldn't tell many people, because if everyone learned this fact, it could very well put him out of a job.

Amongst lots of other advice and tools he provided, he wanted me to make an assurance that I would do 60 mins of hard, physical exercise every day for thirty days. The thirty day rule was because there's a lag time between input and results, so most people stick at it for a week or so, don't feel any better and give up. It takes between 3 and 4 weeks for you to start feeling better, so he wanted an assurance I'd do thirty days before giving up.

So I did. I was already quite fit at the time. I would do lots of hiking in the hills near where I live, and walked to the shops frequently, playing sport with my kids too. But walking for an hour, or meandering along on a bike wasn't what he had in mind. He insisted that it was 60 mins of HARD, physical exercise - like lifting weights at the gym, or running with heart rate >160bpm, or hiking up tall mountains carrying a 20kg pack.

So I got myself a gym membership with my brother, and we started lifting weights. It was inconvenient. He lives a long way away, so we'd meet half way (about a 30 minute drive). I'm a shift worker with irregular shifts, so sometimes I was there at 6am, and other days at 10pm. I felt physically exhausted a lot of the time, and my body ached at work as I recovered. I hit the protein shakes and downloaded a training app to my phone to track my progress.

About two weeks in, I'd had enough. It was really hard to motivate myself to exercise after a 12 hour shift. But I hung in there, because I told him I'd do thirty days, and also because I didn't want to let my brother down after dragging him into it.

After about three weeks, I started to notice some changes. Physical changes and a six pack - yes, but I mean mental health changes. I was beginning to fall asleep much more quickly (mindfulness app helped with this too). I noticed I spent less time thinking about the manipulative witch who was wreaking havoc on my family. Another few days after that, I noticed I was starting to look forward to going to the gym and started bugging my brother to do 75 minutes. A few women from work, out of the blue, said I was looking great.

At the end of the thirty days, I was hooked. My counsellor rang for a follow up, and I relayed my story. I could tell he was trying to hold back his smugness of "I told you so".

He went on to explain that hard, exhausting physical exercise is very important for shifting you brain from being controlled by the amygdala (the primal, reptilian bit which controls flight or flight) and re-engages your frontal coretex so that you start making measured, intelligent decisions and responding to interactions with your wayward/walkaway spouse without emotion driven behaviour.

This didn't fix my sitch. Exercising hard every day wasn't a quick fix for my relationship problems. My ex was still a manipulative, controlling PITA who dragged me through court and played chess with my kids and our money. IMHO though, I won the court battle and had a much better outcome on kids and finance as a result.

The most important thing though, was this exercise allowed me to regain control of my life, my thoughts, my physical health, my sleep and my confidence. It was more helpful than a counsellor, more helpful than anything I read on this forum, and got me through the hardest time of my life. I'm now on the other side with a new partner, a new house, lots of time with my kids and succeeding in my job like I have never done before. Meanwhile, my ex got dumped by her AP, kicked out of her rental and is living on someone else's lounge room floor.

So - here's the rub. If you're here for any reason, but particularly as a newbie who's landed at DB after an unexpected BD - you need to get your butt off to the gym. And you need to exercise HARD and LONG, and you can't give up under ANY circumstances for the first thirty days. Get a friend/relative to exercise with to improve your accountability.

It won't fix your crazy WS/WAS. It won't fix your relationship. But it will fix YOU, and it will switch off your reptile brain and get you sleeping, thinking carefully, and making calm, rational, intelligent decisions with the higher functioning part of your human brain.

You've got this! cool


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2939633#Post2939633

Originally Posted by bttrfly
It's really difficult to figure out what the rest of your life is going to be when someone's just blown it to smithereens.

However, there's another way to look at this: you now have what Jack3Beans used to call the gift of time. I say if you can take this precious gift (that we all know you never asked for) and use it to figure out who you are now. You know who you were before your marriage and during your marriage. Give yourself the opportunity to discover who you are now. This process will change you. Take time to process those changes. Really think about what your core values are now, and what is most important to you. Taking the time to do this will help you figure out what you really want in your life as you move forward either with or without your wife.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2939682#Post2939682

Originally Posted by SteveLW
Please do not think my trying to put things into simple terms means I think this stuff is easy. I wish it were. All of us here have been through it to some level, and we all made lots of mistakes. And we've all come through it, no matter the outcome, for better or for worse. So we try to help newcomers to look at things differently so that they can start to maybe see the wisdom in DBing. When I first started DBingI was awful at it. Over days and weeks I got better. I think I still was only at 80-90% proficient in my best days!

So just keep working at it. The beauty of it is that it will help you get over your over attachment and your desire to please her at the expense of your own wants and desires. One day you will wake up and your mind and emotions won't be racing with thoughts of devastation if she decides to split. Its hard to think you will get there but keep working at GAL, 180ing and self improvements, and detachment, and you will get there!


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2939695#Post2939695

Originally Posted by BL42
That's where the lawyers comes in...best person to advise you what you're entitled to in your jurisdiction. Don't remember if you said where you're located, but there are main areas of consideration:

*Custody - N/A for D23 & S17. A few years for D13. Don't accept anything less than 50/50.
*Child Support - N/A for D23. Maybe S17, but some states are until 21. A few more years for D13. Often an online calculator for your state to run your income and your wife's income and estimate the obligation.
*Assets - Guessing based on married 25 years neither of you have significant pre-martial assets, but if you do some states are either Equitable or Equal Distribution of Assets. The former meaning generally you take premarital assets off the top before dividing in two, the latter just straight up divide in half.
*Spousal Support - Typically based on the length of marriage and disparity in income. You know both of those factors. Often times there's a straight up online calculator for length and amount of support. You should be able to find something by googling your state name and spousal support calculator.

Start gathering bank statements on EVERYTHING you can (credit cards, checking/savings accounts, retirement accounts...etc.). You should know how much you have in your 401k and how much she has in hers. Assuming neither had a significant amount 25 years ago before marriage it's a straightforward add up and divide by two. Unless she's willing to sign the farm away, which is possible, but probably unlikely...especially the longer it plays out.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2939783#Post2939783


Originally Posted by DnJ
It’s perfectly normal to consider and explore the what ifs of a relationship’s past. You are not living in fantasy land, you are considering and altering direction.

Lots of folks avoid conflict. It appears your W learnt to stuff down and ignore conflict; to back down. And given your upbringing I’d suspect you have a similar distaste for facing conflicts.

More open respectful communication is always a good thing. Communication is usually the biggest cause/problem in any relationship. Learning how to lead and facilitate difficult conversations is a most valuable life skill to acquire. Life has difficulties and conflicts will arise. Discussing those is needed.

Resolution of conflict comes not from sorting out who is right and who is wrong, it comes from seeing and hearing the other’s side. That takes empathy and leaving one’s ego out of things. When both participate towards that end, the solution is win/win. Not a compromise, that’s lose/lose. A win/win, a decision where both parties achieve their true desired outcome. And often, it’s rather surprising what solutions folks can come up with.

That outcome, the possibility that both can achieve their goal, usually eludes folks due to our us against them societal defaults. Folks are programmed - media, politics, and so on - that to win the other must lose. Such constant reinforcement is a yoke that drags the unaware, and conflicts brew and stagnate.

Conflict, difficult conversations, just some things to consider and perhaps look into during your journey forward.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2939906#Post2939906

Originally Posted by job
Don't compare your life with others. The reason that I say this is that people, in general, want us to be happy and they think that once the ink is dry on the divorce decree that you should be out there searching for the next companion. For some that works, for others, it takes longer to get from Part A to Part B. You are wise to take this time for yourself. You will know when you are ready to date again. It may not be today, tomorrow or next month....but you will know.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2035183#Post2035183


Originally Posted by PuppyDogTails
Coach recommends the first one as a mindset to people on here, and it's helped a lot of us. The Band of Brothers "accept that you're already dead" paradigm also works well.


STOCKDALE PARADOX:


"You must retain faith that you can prevail to greatness in the end, while retaining the discipline to confront the brutal facts of your current reality."

Admiral James Stockdale was shot down in Viet Nam and imprisoned in the "Hanoi Hilton" for almost eight years. He was also its highest-ranking officer. He writes about his experience in his book, In Love and War. How did he survive while others did not? "Retain faith that you will prevail in the end, regardless of the difficulties." He adds, however, what distinguishes his position from simple "optimism" - and formulates what has become known as the Stockdale Paradox: "and confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be."

This is the critical difference which guards against the endless disappointment that optimism's carrots' evasiveness create - until, maybe, the reward in the end. On the other hand, an ability to continue making realistic assessments of one's current life situation measures and apportions one's energies and reserves to better face each challenge as it comes, thus positioning one with a stronger chance to prevail.


"You're Already Dead" (Band of Brothers)


Puppy


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2940006#Post2940006

Originally Posted by BluWave
I have lost track of my timeline at this point. I could not tell you off the top of my head when his A started, when he left and when he starting coming back to the M....what I can tell you is that during my sitch, I NEVER thought I would get to the position that I am now where I have lost track of time. I was so consumed with my own thoughts, fears, anxiety, humiliation, etc, that I could not imagine a life with him again where things could be peaceful and okay. I couldn't really imagine any life. I was simply trying to survive. I can tell you today from where I sit that humans--all of us--we are resilient. We are so much more capable to get through trauma and grief than we give ourselves credit for.

I wish I had some pearls of wisdom to share with you all. What I realize now is that I actually knew it all along, I just couldn't or wouldn't accept those truths. I would often tell myself, "you won't feel this way forever," and "this terrible feeling will pass," and also, "your life will be okay again with or without him." I knew what I needed to know inside but wasn't ready to hear it. I know now that I was right all along. I am okay in my M but I know I would also have been okay without it.

I think working through the trauma and allowing yourself to process and heal, really does make you a stronger person. But there really are no shortcuts or ways around that. We have to feel it and face it. It takes so much longer than you might think. Years and years. But also, I think it is worth it. We are both stronger people now. I like myself more than I did before. We are all capable of change if we are willing to do the hard work.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2940086#Post2940086

Originally Posted by DW17
The advice I've been getting here has helped me understand that I am in control of my own happiness. Focusing on myself, especially GAL, has helped tremendously with that. It has had a positive impact on my relationships with nearly everyone around me....except for my W (so far!) Keep at it man, we do not have to follow the models we were given.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2940212#Post2940212

Originally Posted by Rockon
I’m faking the detachment a lot of the time....Still incredibly emotional for me but becoming more manageable. In therapy and outside of therapy I have been working on riding the waves of emotions letting them come up noticing them happening to me journaling or talking about it and being in it and then letting them go. Having a plan for GAL, good solid friends, exercise, prayer and nature are helping me.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2940310#Post2940310

Originally Posted by LH19
I think the stereotypical definition is way off base and most people misunderstand what is to be an "alpha male". I am going to give you the best definition I have come across and you tell me whether you think it is a goal you can work towards.

A true alpha’s state of mind is one of indifference, charm, humor, humility, courage and a belief that eventually, things will work out in their favor. Alphas set, keep and hold other people accountable to their boundaries. They stand up for what they believe in and don’t compromise their principles or values for ANYONE. They have an emotionally compelling vision of what kind of life and lifestyle they want to create and then resolve to pay the price, no matter how long it takes to make it a reality.”


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2940304#Post2940304

Originally Posted by br4nd0n
A question - I know you are supposed to do things like connect back with friends and to make her be curious about my whereabouts. Do you tell her what you are doing/going? Or do you just say “hey I made some plans and will be out”.

Originally Posted by DnJ
As for how much detail to tell. It depends on the scenario. Just keep any pressure dialed way down. A general, "I’m heading out for a few hours", should suffice. Other times, "D and I are getting an Xmas tree. Want to come along?", would be more appropriate. It depends on the scenario, and that day. Be kind and cordial. Keep your side of the street in order.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2940298#Post2940298

Originally Posted by SteveLW
You found the forum and that is good, because now you can focus on yourself. The best advice I received in my own situation was to remove my focus form her and what she was saying and doing, and focus on me. And DBing gave me things to focus on: getting a life, going out and recapturing who I was and who I wanted to be. 180ing and self-improvements, becoming the best version of myself that I could be. Becoming a person only a fool would leave! And finally emotionally detaching, learning to detach my emotions and responses from her words and actions.

Those are difficult at first, but the beauty of them even when you aren't good at them, is it gives you something to focus on!

Use this as an opportunity to move your life forward. He'll either come around and want to be part of that, or he won't.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2936646#Post2936646

Originally Posted by bttrfly
That gear-grinding sound you've been hearing is me, doing a lot of thinking lately. There've been more than a few posts on these boards about how to stand, when to stand, when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em. I'm going to offer mine here.

First and foremost I ask those reading this post: what brought you here? Did you come to find out how to leave your marriage or did you come to find out how to save it?

If you came to find out how to leave, I'd say you're in the wrong place. Read the rest of Michele's site. Right on the homepage, smack dab in the middle: SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE NOW and these words, "Are you having marriage problems? If so, you've come to the right place. We believe in saving marriages from divorce and are convinced that most marriage problems are solvable...even if your husband or wife doesn't agree!"

Still not convinced of the mission of this site? From Michele's bio (again, on the home page): "Because Michele Weiner-Davis believes that divorce is not the answer, she developed an innovative method for working with couples experiencing difficult marital problems. Her approach was so successful that she knew she had to share her knowledge with the millions of couples struggling in their marriages. In 1992, she wrote, Divorce Busting which quickly became a best-seller. “The rest,” they say, “is history”."

This place is about saving marriages. In the event your marriage can't be saved, if you follow DB principles you will at least emerge from the wreckage a better version of yourself.

Secondly, there are as many opinions here as there are posters and those reading along anonymously. How are you to determine "good" advice from "bad"?? To that I say, it's just like real life - consider the source.

While everyone's situation is unique to them, there are, i believe, certain things to look for when reading the many opinions offered up. The three which were - and continue to be - the most important to me:

1. how long did that person actually practice DB principles with their spouse? was it days/weeks/months/years?

Personally, I've preferred to heed comments and advice of people who spent years standing to those who spent less than 6 months standing. Why the prejudice? Because even if their marriages ended in D, those long-time standing posters learned something during their years of DBing that only time can give. Saving a marriage isn't a quick fix. It cannot be done in two, four, six months. It took years to get to the breaking point; it'll take more than a minute to get to a place of healing. The level of change required to save a marriage takes time. A lot of time. It's not a sprint, by any means. If someone has tried DB on for size for more than an hour, you already know this is not for the faint of heart. You, your marriage, and your partner are all in a crucible, burning away that which no longer serves. It remains to be seen if you can come out of the fire together or apart.

so: Consider the source when reading and heeding advice, both here and in other areas of your life.
Specific to here: Know the stories of those whose advice you're taking. Did they follow a path you want to follow as well? Do they speak with the authority of vast experience? Are they currently a better version of the person who first got here? And, most importantly to me: How long did they actually practice DBing, since I came here to LEARN DBing?

Maybe that's not important to you. If not, skip to the next point:

2. Where are they now?
What do you mean, B? That can be answered in a few ways but these are the answers I seek when deciding whose advice to heed:

*** Were they able to save their marriage? (this was way more important to me as a newbie than it is now)

*** Are they a better version of the person they brought here? (ah, this is the Holy Grail of questions)

*** If their marriage ended in D, are they currently thriving in their lives?

*** Are they at peace?

*** Are they open to a new relationship? If not, why not?

3. Are they posting advice from a place of hurt or from a place of healing?
What the F does that mean, B? my answer: keep reading. You'll know the difference when you see it.

The longer I live and observe the world around me and the people in it, the more I believe that most of what we see in human behavior is a grief response. I used to think that all responses came from love or fear. No. Love and fear are both responses to grief, in the context to which I'm referring. It's what we do with our grief that forms our response.

Grief can cause someone to respond in ways which are self-protective, defensive, abrasive, obnoxious, hurtful, angry, mean, bullying, authoritative. Grief can also cause someone to respond in ways which are open, questioning, loving, kind, compassionate - sometimes fiercely so, gentle, healing.

YOU get to decide how you want to proceed, both when you get here, and in your personal response to grief. On the same day, in almost the same minute, the negative and positive responses to grief can co-exist. Like that saying about the light and dark inner wolf - you get to decide which one to feed, and whose advice to heed as you're feeding that inner wolf.

Choose wisely.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2940877#Post2940877

Originally Posted by JosephS
Goodness I miss Sandi and am eternally grateful she took an interest in my situation.

Anyway, here’s my opinion and what worked. My ex ran the gambit from wanting me to harm myself and tried to get me too, to I’m meaningless, to let’s be friends to I want you back. You know what got her wanting me back and countless others. Not giving a rip what she wanted, said, or did.

There have been a few times when she’s called in the past and you know when she’s just telling stories to hear herself talk, and when she was being 100%. She told me she didn’t understand why I was doing better without her. Why I was busy, had a ton of friends, was always doing fun stuff. All of a sudden the man who was steady, safe, and always there (in other words boring) was the life of the party. She realized she screwed up and I was in the same boat she was. Going through the motions, I just didn’t cheat.

So, what do you want to be? Her friend? Nothing? Her husband?

You wanna be her friend, than be friendly. You want to be nothing to her? Than be a her doormat and constantly be there and text back and be available. You want a chance of getting her back? Than make her stop and wonder where you are. What are you doing. She wants you to be single, so be single. I’m not saying date or have one night stands, but go do what you want without a care in the world how it affects her.


This is just what worked for me, but as Sandi says; do what works.

Keep your head high, there is an end to this.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574

Originally Posted by job
There is a wonderful book out there entitled, The Solo Partner" by Phil DeLuca. In this book there is a chapter on Pursuers and Distancers and how they have a dance/game going on w/their spouses. I'm going to share a bit of this w/you now and you'll be able to identify the reactive behaviors both you and your mlcer play.

In many instances, your mlcing spouse is the Distancer because he/she has distanced themselves from you. In order to attempt to get them to come back, you'll make all sorts of sacrifices, promises, deals, etc., i.e., w/promises of change, anything they want you'll do, etc. You then become the Pursuer. Pursuers are more motivated to initiate change in order to get the spouse back. A Distancer will rarely initiate change and never changes in response to direct efforts by others. He/she will only change when he/she fears losing his pursuer, and this can happen only when the pursuer stops her/his pursuit. This is when the Distancer becomes the Pursuer. He/she will pursue with apologies for the rude and crude behavior, little gifts, nice emails, cards, phone calls, etc. Whatever you do, do not let your guard down when they are being nice. This is where they attract you back into the game like a moth to a candle. They know that you want them back and will do anything to get you back; and they also know just what strings to pull to get you to pursue them all over again. Stop! Do not pursue or the game will continue on indefinitely!

Take a minute and think about this another way. When you detach and distance yourself from your spouse, notice how they start coming around, being nice, etc.? Well, he/she feels that you are not pursuing them. They want the chase, they want you to pursue them so that they can come back and slam dunk you all over again. It's a dance of madness. They may not even be aware of what they are doing, but once you snap up the niceness all over again, they will most definitely come back w/anger to distance themselves from you again for their safety and security. Does this sound familiar to you?

Here are some specific ways you can avoid pursuing your spouse at this time:

Emotional Level:

Don't initiate conversations or give advice (even if they asked for the advice, refrain from giving it).

Abstain from trying to change or improve your partner in any way.

Do not seek his emotional support or help with any of your problems, concerns, or worries.

Do not look to him as someone to talk to.

If you've been babying him, stop.

Identify whatever you are doing for him, and stop doing it.
An example of this is: stop doing his laundry, picking up after him, cooking especially for him, or waiting on or for him.

Stop "keeping the peace". If you've been intervening between him and others, be it children, family or friends, stop doing so. He needs to learn how to interact w/others all on his own.

Physical Level:

Do not initiate expressions of affection, such as hugging, kissing and saying "I love you," or "I'll miss you," or asking questions such as "Do you love me?"

Do not appease your partner sexually any longer.

Do not plan your schedule around his, and do not do things for him.

This is not the time for a romantic vacation or second honeymoon.

If he spends his spare time at home, arrange to be out while he's there.

Do things with family and friends or by yourself.

In short, do as little as possible for him or with him, with the goal of doing absolutely nothing.

The most important pointer to be made--DO NOT give The Solo Partner to your spouse.

In other words, leave your spouse out there and do not take the bait when he puts it under your nose. The sooner your spouse (Distancer) realizes that you aren't going to react and pursue him/her all over again, the sooner the dynamics of your situation will change. Take back control over your life and don't allow the mlcer to control and/or manipulate your life any longer.

I recommend to each of you to get this book and read it. I read this book in 2001/2002 and I highly recommend it. It's not only good for what you are dealing w/at this time, but you can apply the techniques in the work place as well.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2941010#Post2941010

Originally Posted by DW17
W is still being irrational and is occasionally still trying to gaslight/start arguments. Every time she does this I hear “When you engage, you lose.” It’s some of the best advice I’ve gotten!


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2941405#Post2941405

Originally Posted by DnJ
It’s not about being non-caring. I still care what XW is up to (at times). It’s that those thoughts don’t drag me around; don’t limit my life, behaviour, or actions; nor do those thoughts or her behaviours define me.

It’s about accepting. And as you see, ego plays a part in that struggle. “It’s not ok that you’re effing around…”, yep true. And what can you do about it? Can you prevent it? Nope. Can you force her to not? Nope. Can you influence her? Maybe. Can you alter yourself? Find peace? Yes.

You can care what she is doing, and let go.

Ego. Telling yourself “it’s not ok”, is judging her. And that reinforces your emotions. Drags you around. Let that go. It’s for God to judge her, not you.

How to let go? Realize, yes it is not ok, or wanted, or proper, or right, etc, for a married women to behave that way. (You got that step. We all get that step pretty fast.)

Then, understand her behaviour/running. Realize why (more or less). That brings about compassion and empathy. I think you are doing well in this as well.

All this allows one to let go their self need to be right, to control. To put aside their ego, even just temporarily, until being nonjudgemental becomes a core value, a belief. You likely have some inclination of the trauma(s) W suffered in her early years. Not an excuse for her, however a reason to find acceptance and forgiveness. Ask yourself, if you suffered the same, where would you’ve ended up? Fate, luck, whatever it is, you and I are on paths different than our respective spouse’s. Realize how blessed that is. Rather humbling. And should highlight the influence of one’e ego upon one’s perception.

Acceptance and forgiveness. Accepting does not mean condoning. Condoning is ignoring something morally wrong or offensive, to allow its continuation. From a few steps up, you realize the immorality of it, and you realize you cannot prevent it. You are not ignoring and allowing, for the continuation is solely up to W. That’s acceptance in a nutshell.

Forgiving is completely upon you. Nothing W can do will earn her forgiveness, in so much as you need to see some behaviour or hear some words before bestowing your forgiveness. That’s not how forgiveness works. In fact, you likely won’t (and probably shouldn’t) ever even tell her. You find it within yourself to let go the grudge and write paid in full upon the bill, and your actions will display such.

Your path is to place your focus elsewhere, a good place is upon yourself and kids; to live and love your life; and give W time and space. That doesn’t mean ignore W, more just let her to her path and journey, while you traverse your’s.

Fortunately, your two paths still interact. Becoming the best version of yourself, is awesome for you, and maximizes your chances of reconciling.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2941395#Post2941395

Originally Posted by bttrfly
We come to this place at arguably the lowest emotional point in our lives and work together to help each other not only survive, but thrive, heal and become better people.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2941455#Post2941455

Originally Posted by Kind18
A good way to think about it is to realize that you only get, on average, 80 laps around the sun.

The last 10-15 usually aren’t that great, managing health problems.

The first 15-20 you’re learning and deciding on a career. So you really only get about 45-50 years where you can have a great, unrestricted life. And there’s a 50% chance you’ll get less than 80 years.

Every day is a gift. Stop sitting around, worrying about what might be, and trying to cajole someone into loving you again. This person, who is destroying your marriage, are you going to let them ruin the best years of your life? Will you sit around, worrying about it, trying desperately to fix it back to what it was, knowing that it obviously wasn’t that great anyway?

When you’re 80 years old, and the light is getting very dim, will you look back on the years you stopped your life trying to get this person back? Will you regret not going out and living your best life every single day when suddenly you have very few remaining?

LH is right. Your ticket to happiness is to live every minute to the full. Become the best you can possibly be. Fix what you identify YOU did wrong in the relationship. What your partner did wrong - who gives a sh*t? That’s their problem, not yours - and you can’t fix it, the only way that will ever change is if THEY decide to change themselves. Find what makes you tick. Go and do things you enjoy. Find hobbies, get fit, eat fine food, connect with and love your kids like you’ve never done before.

If your partner decides they want in, then maybe you will reconcile. But if you waste your life trying to get them back and it doesn’t work out, I guarantee you’ll look back on that time in later life as a waste of an amazing opportunity.

I came here three years ago, shocked, horrified, broken and lost. The day I let it all go and decided to ignore her dumpster fire and live my best life - that’s when I found true happiness.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2941707#Post2941707

Originally Posted by LH19
Relationships generally fall apart for one of three reasons: (1) One partner becomes emotionally unstable for a variety of reasons, which may include mental illness, addiction, issues related to a bad childhood, etc. (2) One partner has a momentary lapse of judgement and cheats and the other partner can't forgive them, or (3) the relationship slowly degrades over time for both people.

In the first case, sometimes people have latent issues and they either temporarily get better (an addict stops using for a while, a person with a mood disorder pursues treatment, etc), *or* the partner knows the issues are there and chooses to ignore them initially, fooling themselves or falsely believing that things will magically get better in the future.

This "fooling yourself" phenomenon is a lot of what goes on -- you fall in love with who you want the person to be versus who they really are. Over time, your veneer gets stripped away, you see them for who they really are and it’s no longer acceptable.

The tragic situation is when someone who was emotionally healthy when you met and dated them has a breakdown after you're married and just becomes unlivable due to their issues. That's rare but it certainly does happen, people just "go crazy" sometimes.

The third scenario is really what the quote above is about. Chances are if the husband is ignoring the wife's complaints, it’s because he's not very motivated to respond to them. The reason is generally that he's not having his needs met either, and his complaints are likely also being ignored.

That's the vicious cycle that tends to land people here -- your needs aren't being met, so you're less motivated to provide your wife with what she needs. Her needs aren't being met, so she's not motivated to give you what you need, and that spinning wheel eventually drives you apart until one person (or both people) decides they want out.

Sometimes the scenarios are combined, you could have all three things going on.

My point is, unless you "went crazy" after you married W, this is in *no way* your fault for not responding to her complaints. She is equally if not more culpable than you are in that regard. Don't let her off the hook for that, and don't shoulder the blame.

It's good to be aware of these dynamics so that you can identify and avoid them in the future, but you're not guilty.

Here's what I mean when I say "make things worse": you are genetically wired to protect your wife and kids. When she's in distress, your first instinct is going to be to try to make things better. When you feel that you're making an effort to relieve her distress, it brings you a feeling of relief.

When you don't respond to her distress, it’s going to make you feel uncomfortable. You're going to get a cortisol dump and it’s going to be very tempting to act to make that bad feeling stop.

You'll tell yourself stories that you're being a bad person, or that you're "pushing her away" to justify trying to relieve your discomfort. "Making things worse" means that you grin and bear it.

You basically need to withdraw support -- emotional support and financial support to the degree possible. If she makes a mess, *she* needs to clean it up. You do not step in and enable her in any way.

If she gets mad at you, you shrug it off, you don't engage.

If she cries in front of you, you let her cry and you make NO effort to comfort her.

You go out and "get a life" and you don't feel *any* responsibility to explain or justify what you're doing, you just do it.

Very important: You are *not* mean, punishing, or passive aggressive. You don't make nasty comments. You don't go out of your way to inconvenience her, you simply act as if you are completely uninterested and unaffected by her.

If she wants to make love to OM in your front yard, you walk past, smile and wave. It just doesn't impact you emotionally.

When she senses that she's losing control over you, she *will* fight back. She will try to manipulate you to stay invested in her. The more you resist, the harder she will try. She'll scream and yell, she'll accuse, she'll break down and cry, she'll blame. The minute you engage, you lose. This will be uncomfortable, it will feel *worse* than giving in to her and engaging. That's what making things worse means.

Often people mistake this fighting on the part of the WAW as interest -- that they want you back and that's why they're engaging you. Don't be fooled -- you being emotionally invested in her is an insurance policy and nothing else. If things go horribly wrong with her affair partners and outside interests, she can always come back to her comfortable marriage.

It’s a huge comfort to know that she has you to fall back on if things go badly for her. You need to pull that safety net away entirely.

She needs to *fully believe* that you will not be there for her if she chooses to return, and that if she wants to come back she's going to have to work for it.

You can't tell her that, she'll never believe it. You have to show her that beyond a doubt with your actions.

Ever run into a crazy person on the sidewalk who points at you and yells at you? You do what you can to minimize the interaction but after that you move on. It doesn't ruin your day, it certainly doesn't hurt your self-esteem or make you feel worse about who you are.

You need to regard her with exactly the same level of detachment and disinterest. Whatever she does, your toes are still tapping.

At the same time, you have to build a life for yourself that anyone would want to be a part of, full of fun activities, outside interests, and engaging friends. If you can do both of those things -- completely emotionally uncouple from her (fake it until you make it) *and* build an amazing life for yourself, she'll clamor to come back and if she doesn't you won't care. That's your only winning path out of where you are, but getting there is going to be uncomfortable, and more painful than you feel today, because it will go against your white knight nature.
Rock, I'm very sorry you're here. Everything she told you about your faults was nonsense to justify her affair. When you then respond to her complaints you validate them, so she feels even more entitled to have her affair.

You've been trying to "nice your way back" for the last seven months.

It's not working, it will never work.

You cannot placate her, you cannot "prove your love" through acts of giving and support.

You also cannot push her away by withdrawing support.

She has chosen her course of action, and as of right now, *nothing* you do will impact it.

Your shortest path back together is to go the opposite direction.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2941933#Post2941933

Originally Posted by FwdMvmnt
I’ve realized that what’s going to happen is going to happen, no matter what I do to try and control it. All it does is cause me anxiety and stress when I try to control. I am not perfect but working toward dropping the rope and acceptance of whatever the situation is. It’s up to me on how I handle my part. A lot easier said than done.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2942223#Post2942223

Originally Posted by bttrfly

Part One:
your relationship with your kids is your business.

your wife's relationship with your kids is not your business.

read that again.

your job as their parent is to make sure your relationship with them is solid.

your job as their parent in this situation is the following:
1. don't parentify them
2. don't interfere in any way with their relationship with their mother - no roadblocks, no efforts to smooth anything over either.
3. basically don't create a crisis and don't try to fix one.
4. if a crisis happens, be their dad. they will need that.

Part Two
Don't confuse or project your feelings about the state of your marriage with how your children may or may not feel about it.



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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2942388#Post2942388

Originally Posted by Kind18
My divorce situation, which was remarkably similar to everyone else who lands here, has led me down a path where I now have a great interest in the psychology behind separation and divorce.

While lots of people bond on this website over similarities in the behaviour of crazy spouses (MLC, childhood trauma, blowing up their lives, affair partner after affair partner, swinging wildly from “this will never work” to “I want to make this work”)…. I find even more interest in the similarity of the types of people that arrive on this board.

Inevitably, there’s a large percentage of new arrivals here who fit a fairly standard mould - medium term relationship (10-20 years), mid thirties to mid fifties, people who have strong convictions about the sanctity of marriage … and people who, generally, are fixers and peacekeepers who feel incredibly uncomfortable at the prospect of life change.

Generally, they appear at this website with their first post, seemingly baffled that their partner has ended up walking away from the marriage. Then there’s the inevitable affairs (that they all strenuously deny at first), then there’s the short term embracing of DB principles (such as going dark) to try and push their partner to re-engage in the relationship, but often they only last a week or two on these strategies before cracking.

By far the most common theme I see here, is LBS who arrive with an over-inflated opinion of the goodness of their spouse. They’ll even make excuses for their spouse’s behaviour.
“She couldn’t possibly be having an affair.”
“We were a happy little family until OW blew it up.”
“His behaviour isn’t really him, it’s rooted in MLC, or grief, or childhood trauma.”
Or in your case “He just needed to get it out of his system, but underneath I still believe he’s a good person.”

The LBS (like you and me) and their passive behaviours over many years trying to keep everything the same, worsens the power balance in the relationship. So when the ticking time bomb finally explodes, the LBS thinks they just have to fix or pacify their WS even more than before to get the relationship back on the rails. That’s what’s worked previously, right?

The cold, harsh reality is that most likely, the old, nice person that you think is hiding under the affair or depression or MLC, was never really there in the first place.

In your case, your husband isn’t a great family guy with good morals who just needed to knock out a few foreign ladies to quench some sickening thirst. He’s actually been that person all along. So when you come here going “Will this affair just last a few months, I’m sure he’ll want to get back with me eventually” - I’m hugely sceptical.

Part of the the problem is that you can’t see this objectively, because you’ve built a life with this person and have spent 10+ years thinking that he’s someone he is not.

Sometimes, it can help if you re-frame it by looking from the outside in. I want you to do this exercise: Imagine your best friend and her husband. She takes you out for coffee, and sits you down and says:

1. Her husband started moving away from the relationship
2. At MC, she eventually agreed her husband could have sex once with someone else.
3. He promised to re-engage with MC straight after.
4. He has some sort of sick sexual pre-disposition or fantasy about women of a certain ethnicity
5. Once he got his way, he immediately back flipped and continues to sleep with other women.

What would you say to her? If she asked you if you thought it likely he would snap out of it in a few months and come running back 100% committed to the marriage, what would you say?

His behaviour is not suggestive of some sort of short term wobble. It’s suggestive of serious, long term character flaws and perhaps addictions which would likely take many years to fix, and only if he truly wanted to do something about it.

I apologize for my skepticism, and it would make me very happy to be proven wrong when he comes crawling back in a month or two begging for your forgiveness. I’m really hopeful that you come out the other side of this a better and stronger human. I have everything crossed for you that it works out for the best, no matter the outcome.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2942562#Post2942562

Originally Posted by Kind18
We have a thing at this forum called a 2x4 (which refers to a big long piece of construction timber, 2 inches by 4 inches). Sometimes we joke about people needing to get hit over the head with it, so they’ll wake up and see what everyone else is seeing.

I sorta feel like I need to dish one out to you… but don’t take it the wrong way, it comes from a place of love and kindness. We can see from your posts that you’re struggling. We all want the best for you.


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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2943650#Post2943650

Originally Posted by bttrfly
Act as if:


So many times we see the WAS come screaming back when it's too late.

If you want a chance to fix your marriage, accept that it's dead in its current form.

If you want a chance to fix your marriage, change the man she left.

Figure out who you are, separate from being a husband and a father.

Figure out what you want.

Live your life accordingly.

Believe me, she will notice.

No one comes back to what they left behind.

If they wanted more of that, they wouldn't have left in the first place.

Figure out what you want.

Figure out who you are.

Live your life accordingly, without her factoring into any of that.


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