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Originally Posted by AndrewP
Originally Posted by bttrfly
He admitted to me that he didn't want this, had never wanted it.
I never had any direct conversation with my XW that gave me any information about what she actually wanted. I know that when my "I'm done" moment came and I called her and demanded that she tell me if she was choosing me or OM she refused to answer and only cried. Prior to that she admitted to the affair and her intention to continue it but at no time did she ever say that she was never coming back. Certainly she was a classic branch-swinger in that way.

When I did my read-back to 2 years ago - which would have been when "B" had moved in to "her" house with "her" husband and "her" son I was informed by a well-meaning mutual acquaintance that her social media was full of bitterness and anger. This also coincided with the "lurking in the shrubberies" incident.

Now mind you she had lots of anger for our entire marriage that would occasionally go over into rage - but never directed at me, I just sat and listened to it and validated. She did go into a rage during the settlement negotiations that she "wasn't getting the respect she deserved" - I held my tongue that day quite hard. It certainly opened the eyes of the lawyers that she was perhaps not the meek and mousey woman with the mean and selfish husband that she was perhaps portraying. Didn't help that she had been lying to her lawyer prior to that either.

How she is now, how she feels about her situation, I have no clue. I was though surprised early yesterday morning that she cashed her monthly payment in the dark wee hours of the morning. Usually it's mid-late morning or even sometimes the next day. I have the money there as an e-transfer usually at least 2 days in advance but she only deposits it on the legally agreed to day. I will say this about her, once the agreement was in place she has been rigorous in abiding by it's pretty limited conditions.

I could speculate that she is tight on cash - she was very good at economizing, but not very good at budgeting. It was only after a very bad shock that we both worked together and I took on sole responsibility for keeping the books up to date that we got out of all consumer debt - just the year before she ran off with OM. Funny thing is that she had bragged to her friends about his money including the large insurance payout he got when his wife passed.

Not my circus, not my monkeys. 30 more payments to go and counting. Reading back what I've written - she certainly is in a situation of her making alone. Whether happy or not.

---

You have either entirely missed my point, are being deliberately obtuse, or trying to distract from the original issue which was why I believe it is a bad idea to become involved with someone who is still legally married to someone else.


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Originally Posted by Andrew
I think that for any person who is arriving on the doorstep of a new life with a new partner, that the baggage that accompanies them has to be taken into account. For those who are struggling with their past, that baggage is disorganized and can create problems and chaos. Some people though are very good at compartmentalizing and dealing with that. I know that in my case that one of the dichotomies I struggled with was how my then wife was able to seemingly manage just fine with a husband on one side and OM on the other as seemingly two separate things - not that I have any understanding of how her mind works. I do know that cognitive dissonance can be a coping mechanism. I certainly used it.
Since I'm dating someone separated 1.5yrs, I also find the discussion of whether to date separated people interesting. It was probably 5yrs post-BD before I was a caring, loving partner again. My XW and I were spending hours together everyday even before her separation--we were almost an instant couple upon separation--and we lasted 10yrs. My XGF I met 9mo after her separation and 9mo into her therapy. if anything I was with her during a better time of her life than currently. I won't date someone a few months out, who can't control their emotions about their ex, or who hasn't found a life of their own. I do like it when potential partners don't demonize their ex's and recognize some of their own mistakes especially if they were the LBS.

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The women where it seemed "too soon" were Ms AdorablePuppy who described her ex and her as inseparable and doing almost everything together and wanted that again, Ms Turkish who seemed to need rescuing after being abandoned by her husband, and Ms BunnyBoiler who oops I dated far too long despite her immense heartache 6mo after the end of a 6mo relationship. I dunno. Maybe it's unprocessed grief and not finding one's new life we should look for rather than timing or being divorced?

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Originally Posted by bttrfly
You have either entirely missed my point, are being deliberately obtuse, or trying to distract from the original issue which was why I believe it is a bad idea to become involved with someone who is still legally married to someone else.
Sorry bttrfly. I thought I had addressed that in an earlier post where I did mention that for me that when I got my separation agreement sorted out that it was a kick in the feels for me and a demarcation point between what was and the future.

Obviously not everyone agrees that dating while separated is a bad thing but I do agree that dating before you have your own side of the street clean is a bad idea. Quite a few people here like yourself do have a hard line on waiting until they have that piece of paper before dating and I respect that. A good number of people continue to "stand for their marriage" well past the time of divorce too which is also to be respected.

Earlier in my journey I was reminded here numerous times that a divorce is a "piece of paper" albeit one that has an emotional burden and that if someone chose to stand for their marriage past that point then that was their choice. Another set of opinions here was that when one spouse left the marriage that that marriage was over and any new relationship would have to be considered as one starting anew.

For me, it took time and effort to make the choice independent of my now XW's actions and beliefs that I was done with the marriage. I am secure in my own belief that I did all I could and while I toyed with the idea of dating prior to that time, I did not.

Certainly the two separated women I dated were a bad idea for numerous reasons beyond the fact that they were separated. They had both been living apart from their former partners for numerous years, had already dated several people etc so obviously they did not believe that dating while separated was an issue for themselves.

For me, it's more or less a moot point. I'm not dating anyone at present, nor intending to date anyone in the near future. If I do choose to though I will certainly take into account the things that I have learned on this journey both personally and from the input and insights of others.

Hope that clarifies things.


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ty yes. I think the potential for hurt goes up exponentially when dating someone still married, all other objections aside.


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This is the main reason for why I try to discover any dating candidate's breakup history. Anybody who has suffered the recent breakup of a long term relationship (the marriage thing is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned) is probably not a good candidate. You are far more likely to be a rebound for them than anything else.

I'm not so sure about the wait until there's a piece of paper thing before a person should begin dating somebody else. I know lots of WAS' who've managed to have very long-term relationships with the AP, or somebody who was waiting in the wings. They didn't need the Decree Nisi (or North American versions thereof) to be capable of sustaining a long term relationship.

Not so sure about LBS' though. LBS', by definition, have not had as long to process their reality. Shock, grief and discombobulation are things that need working through before one can truthfully say they are the person they're going to be moving forward. In my case, it took two years to get divorced and that was only because XH drove the whole process. I was in no way ready to be anybody's long-term partner. That wasn't possible for quite a long time - probably 3.5 - 4 years after BD.

One thing I am wary of though is the man who has been separated a long, long time from his XW but won't do anything about making himself marriageable. Whilst I'm well aware that there could be a raft of good reasons for it, it still seems a little like a defence mechanism - a way of ensuring no long term entanglement. It doesn't say they still love their separated spouse (although that is a possibility) but it certainly doesn't indicate emotional readiness for anything serious either.


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bttrfly,
Originally Posted by bttrfly
I know for a fact that the finalization of our divorce drove my exh bonkers. The reality of what he'd put in play hit him, hard. He admitted to me that he didn't want this, had never wanted it. It was even more ugly than his leaving. So, no, I don't believe that LBS are the only ones needing a time out on relationships post D being finalized. It hits both people. A monumental loss has occurred, regardless of who initiated it. That loss requires time and space. Rebounds are not pretty, even if someone ends up in a LTR with the rebound person.
Interesting. I haven't read through your complete history, but take it your ExH drove the affair/separation/D, yet got hit emotionally anyway by the D? I think there's a natural tendency for the LBS to get caught up in the Ex moving on so happily with everything going right in their lives and assume they'll ride off in the sunset and the next relationship with affair partner or rebound will last forever, but your case is an example of the Exs not always so sure about their decisions.

devvo,
Originally Posted by devvo
I know lots of WAS' who've managed to have very long-term relationships with the AP, or somebody who was waiting in the wings...

Not so sure about LBS' though. LBS', by definition, have not had as long to process their reality. Shock, grief and discombobulation are things that need working through before one can truthfully say they are the person they're going to be moving forward.
You seem to be disagreeing with the general consensus, and think the WASs may be more capable of a successful LTR / non-rebound than the LBSs because they're further along in the process by BD? I guess that was what I was digging at in my original question. There was a discussion earlier about male LBSs vs. female LBSs, but I was curious people's thoughts on LBS vs. WSs/WASs due to the notion they're often months or years ahead of the LBSs mindset at BD. Wonder if that helps them in a way, or if to DnJ's point they have major issues being the one who did walk away and often don't self-reflect and just put on the band-aid.


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Originally Posted by BL42
bttrfly,

Interesting. I haven't read through your complete history, but take it your ExH drove the affair/separation/D, yet got hit emotionally anyway by the D? I think there's a natural tendency for the LBS to get caught up in the Ex moving on so happily with everything going right in their lives and assume they'll ride off in the sunset and the next relationship with affair partner or rebound will last forever, but your case is an example of the Exs not always so sure about their decisions.

Well, you won't be able to read my complete history because I asked the moderators to purge it, so I'll try to sum up, although it's pretty standard fare:

exh cheated, lied about it upon BD, monstered through mediation, started telling me he loved me as soon as we sold our home, monstered again when I said don't cake eat here. I'm not interested in crumbs, thankyouverymuch. Dragged his feet on pushing for the divorce, then went ape on me ironically the day the D was finalized, saying he didn't want this, never wanted this. I didn't understand it then, maybe don't fully understand it now, but he's perfectly followed the exceptionally horrific example of both his mother (WAS) and his father (LBS), and believe me, without my going into details, that took a lot of work on his part. Looking at it from a distance now I can only shake my head and say wow, I never realized how broken he really was.

Is he happy? I think he tells himself that, but really he's never truly lived with his AP/new wife. He moved to another state from her 9 months before they eventually married, which my son was not invited to, and which he described as "caving" ... he has no relationship with his father or his brother. His mother's health has seriously deteriorated in the past 9 months, along with my son facing a life threatening illness. His answer to that was to buy a place a further 3000 miles away (he's his mom's health care proxy, POA, etc). If he's so content why didn't he live permanently with his AP? If he's so happy why is he running, again, now 6k miles from his mom and son who both really need him? He's had more money than he knows what to do with, lives large, spending as fast as he earns, and I haven't pushed for what is owed me because I don't want to repeat the pattern of his parents divorce, which I know is what he is willing and able to do. That is the price of my freedom and my and my son's eventual peace of mind.


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
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Originally Posted by devvo
This is the main reason for why I try to discover any dating candidate's breakup history. Anybody who has suffered the recent breakup of a long term relationship (the marriage thing is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned) is probably not a good candidate. You are far more likely to be a rebound for them than anything else.
I think that this is excellent advice. Both of the women I dated were the ones who ended their former relationship because - so they said - the behaviour of their former partner was unacceptable. Marital infidelity, financial mis-management, gambling were among the various causes.

I honestly don't know but could assume that the spouse who leaves spends less time looking at themselves than those who are left wondering WTH just happened.

But it does show though I think how committed a person can be once they form an attachment. I know that especially with my last relationship that I was far less committed to trying to make things work than I would have been only a few years earlier. There's a lot of discussion here about attachment styles which perhaps isn't where you were going with this.

Originally Posted by devvo
I'm not so sure about the wait until there's a piece of paper thing before a person should begin dating somebody else. I know lots of WAS' who've managed to have very long-term relationships with the AP, or somebody who was waiting in the wings. They didn't need the Decree Nisi (or North American versions thereof) to be capable of sustaining a long term relationship.
I think - and this gets back to your comment about rebounds - that those who have lost their partner in a traumatic fashion are much more likely to cling to the first bit of flotsam and jetsam that floats by. I know that places like this can be a place where two damaged people can find each other and cling - there are a number of relationships that have started here - one of the very valid reasons why anonymity especially among newcomers is a good idea. Can such relationship be sustained for the long term? Just like anything "it depends" - but starting from a damaged foundation can't make it easy. Which is where examining your motivations for forming a partnership is I think important. I remember regularly hearing from the loud fights next door "you're afraid you'll die alone" and "who else would have you". Don't miss that family. If it's because of saving / being saved, that certainly isn't in my opinion healthy. I do remember being frustrated with my own sisters who followed along with the cultural norms of the time and place we grew up who felt that they "had" to have a man - any man in their lives.
Originally Posted by devvo
One thing I am wary of though is the man who has been separated a long, long time from his XW but won't do anything about making himself marriageable. Whilst I'm well aware that there could be a raft of good reasons for it, it still seems a little like a defence mechanism - a way of ensuring no long term entanglement. It doesn't say they still love their separated spouse (although that is a possibility) but it certainly doesn't indicate emotional readiness for anything serious either.
There are a good number of men, and I suspect a larger number of women who may have no interest in forming a new partnership but can be looking for a bit of fun. For some men - the opportunity to "sow their wild oats" can be tempting. I think that for women - especially ones who have been the primary care-giver - the relief of not having to care for anyone else can certainly be understood.

I stumbled on one of those odd corners of the internet where women are talking about managing their dating and it bears a strong resemblance to conversations I've seen here about "high value partners" etc and uses those same terms. It's interesting that what counts to these writers as a "high value man" is very different than what it seems like on the other side. But as S and her kids pointed out, there are a lot of man-child types out there.

Your comment about "making himself marriagable" is interesting - not putting it down - just digesting it. It's been said that I'm a "catch" - still have my own hair and teeth, decent cook, good income, reliable, takes care of himself and environment. The premise is though with both points is that I'm "eligable" - again assuming an eventual partnership. I dunno - I'm a very visual analogy kind of guy and the image that went through my head (to the tune of Baby Shark) was of just swimming along do de do de do minding my own business.

Originally Posted by BL42
You seem to be disagreeing with the general consensus, and think the WASs may be more capable of a successful LTR / non-rebound than the LBSs because they're further along in the process by BD? I guess that was what I was digging at in my original question. There was a discussion earlier about male LBSs vs. female LBSs, but I was curious people's thoughts on LBS vs. WSs/WASs due to the notion they're often months or years ahead of the LBSs mindset at BD. Wonder if that helps them in a way, or if to DnJ's point they have major issues being the one who did walk away and often don't self-reflect and just put on the band-aid.
I think that it comes down to momentum. A WAS is already on their way out the door. An LBS - at least the ones here - are still attached to and dragged along to their departing partner. It takes a while to turn a big ship around - the more freight you are carrying and the more shoals in the way, the more difficult it can be (feeling nautical today).


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Blergh - over-did it yesterday and am paying the price today. I did get my storm windows up but then instead of stopping or taking a break I emptied out the shed that the windows were stored in and gave it a good clean and then since the weather was cooperative, did some other maintenance work that also involved a lot of lifting and a certain amount of swearing.

My grass still needs to be cut but that's going to have to wait. It did make me think on how long I'll be able to take care of this place. Certainly hoisting the windows up and down when I'm in my 70s is probably not going to be something I can do on my own. I had a nice brunch with my son today and he mentioned that a friend's sons are doing grass cutting. I'd already had them in mind for looking after my cat if I ever do manage to get to go away to see my daughter. He also pointed out that I was supposed to have let him know so that he could do the windows but agreed that given how it's one of those jobs I feel that you just have to do when the opportunity weather and time-wise presents itself, that that could be tricky.

My son is doing fairly well - his beard has grown quite bushy. He had "the girls" in to their annual vet appointment and they are doing well. The information from their former vet seems to have transferred over without any problems. He's frustrated at work and is considering getting a transfer to another part of the same company. I did suggest to him that with his warehouse experience that there are lots of places that he could apply that to as well.

Getting ready for winter here is now in progress. I did find what I think is the last of the odour from S's cats. A small rug in the hallway has now been tossed.

I did read back here to 2 years ago. I was in a pretty good place despite having recently split with my first relationship post-divorce. Things hadn't started with S in any fashion and I was just more or less "chill". There was though a sense of optimism in that guy that is currently lacking. I'll need to think on that. I know where it went - it left when it turned out that there are people out there who are absolutely not a match at all and who cause damage in the process.

Still not feeling the urge to date anyone at present although I did notice how pleasantly curvy the owner of the flower shop was yesterday. She was wearing a tight dress that she's worn a few times and it shows off her figure quite nicely. No clue is she's seeing someone now or not - I've not seen her boyfriend around for some months and she and I chatted about how weird it is to cook for 1 now that her son has gone away to school. She's a nice person, at least in the customer / business person relationship we have, hard working, very competent and has lovely eyes.

That is one of the challenges with meeting someone organically. Are they currently partnered or not? Are they interested? Hard to tell and asking is just rude in some ways.

I did hear from C through the week - she was looking for a hard-to find ingredient for a recipe she has. I checked with some of my relatives and they can help her out. Still not sure how I feel about her beyond a friend assuming that's even a possibility. Nothing I need to make any sort of decision on - I at least have learned I hope to not allow myself to be dragged into anything that I don't want.

---

The house currently smells of fresh bread and roast pork. I'll need to get my scalloped potatoes on the go soon but back to my ironing. I have to do some pre-planning then for tomorrow's loads - we have about 45 tonnes of product that needs to be packaged including a new to us blend that involves heavy metals. I spent a chunk of Friday making sure that the people who actually know how to do this stuff had everything they needed to mitigate any possible spill. I don't expect any sort of spill but it still needs to be planned for so that we can act immediately if we need to. When things go sideways they can go sideways quickly. When I was in the lab on Friday one of the newer techs had a spill on himself. I just jumped out of the way while the other techs grabbed the proper kit, and dealt with it. I think he ruined a pair of pants but there was I believe no damage beyond that.

Early to bed tonight is the plan - sleep is the best thing for me when I over-do it.


On BD
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I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
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