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unchien Offline OP
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Thanks Gigi. I'm under no illusions that I've forgiven my XW.

She tried to pave a legal road to move away with our kids. She would do it again tomorrow if she had the means. I cannot forgive that, nor do I think it would really be healthy to do that today. Maybe later.

I don't miss the relationship with my XW. That's not an angry response to the kid stuff. Times were bad and she refused to work on our MR in any meaningful way. I remember driving to work listening to communication podcasts for months, trying to figure out a way to do my part to help improve things. We tried marital counseling and she asked me to wash more dishes... then, when I did so, she complained I was too loud (even when I was literally setting them as softly as possible in the washer) or doing them at the wrong time. I was not passive-aggressive about it, I readily said "Yeah, I want to do anything that might help." There was no effort, it was a checklist item to tick off. Once a month she would unload on me late at night about everything I was doing wrong while I actively listened, didn't problem solve, etc. Then, before I could respond, say, "I'm tired, I'm going to bed" and storm off. Then she would complain I didn't go to bed right away either. She made wild accusations (porn addiction, affair) because, well... I don't know, that argument started with her being upset I didn't buy her enough jewelry for Christmas. I always thought... if I just connect with her feeling, even though her accusations are completely crazy and untrue, maybe we will start to patch things together. I gave her space and she accused me of being distant. If I came closer she asked for space.

She was unhappy when we moved, regretted moving, and it was all my fault. I could do nothing right. It was amazing how I would leave work earlier than any co-worker, arrive home, and somehow I was always 5 minutes late and the kids had already started eating dinner. She couldn't wait 5 minutes. Every day. I was stressed out of my mind trying to please someone who didn't care... at... all.

The dynamics were there for her to blame me for everything. At any point she could have said, "Unchien, I'm unhappy with this move, I'd like to work out a plan to move back." Never happened. Even post-S, at any point before things really turned south, she could have said, "Unchien, I would like to move back to my family. Can we work something out?" I recall telling friends I would have moved, and accepted less than half time with my kids, provided I had some financial security (because the job market for my skills is lousy where her family lives). Never did she approach me to discuss things in that way.

Instead, she dangled her threats in front of me for a year. I tried co-parenting counseling for 6 months, mediation for 3 months. She never changed. We were talking about her request for a pedicure in mediation, at $400/hr, because she had packed some of my stuff when I moved out of our house! Always "every other weekend" with the kids and that was it, with a "Maybe I'll give you an extra night once a month" if some vaguely defined milestones (set by her, of course) were met. Always withholding the kids, always dangling a carrot several months out. I got fed up, lawyered up, and here we are. Fortunately I had the financial means to do so. I feel horribly for people in these situation who don't have 6 figures to spend and have to deal with this BS (men or women). I have an amazing life ahead of me, and she's still blaming me for all her problems. Or CoVID (when it comes to refusing to work). Phew.

The red flags were there early on in our relationship. It is not like she used to be an effective communicator, or someone who took any responsibility for conflict in relationships. I just happened to be a deferential NG and went along with it. Part of the reason I have been estranged from my parents a few years is because of my parents (they wrote the letter after all)... but part of it is my XW driving that wedge in too. Conflict just magically always came up, over the most mundane and ridiculous topics. And then, to top it off, she brought it up in court as if I cut my parents off!

Anyways, I can forgive all of the above relationship stuff. I can, and I will. I never want to be with a partner who doesn't bother to accept any responsibility or try to communicate and worth through issues. Couples who don't learn to fight, break up.

BUT... I can't forgive the stuff with our kids. It's not like my situation is over. She will absolutely move away if she can. I have legal protections and all that, but she could still try. Family court allows for all kinds of crazy things.

I think it is futile and pointless to work towards forgiving something that is a continuing situation. That's what I'm trying to say.

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Im not sure why your wife wanted to move away, but it interesting to read this. I dont want to go into a load of details about my sitch, but im very much considering moving country and the kids would come with me. I want to add straight away, this decision isnt taken lightly and it has nothing to do with H. This decision is around my life going forward and a place where the whole of my family is. At the moment i have literally no support of any kind, and because of covid i havent seen my family since last august! And this just isnt the life i want to lead. I absolutely have the moral dilemma about taking the kids away. So i either stay and give up on my life close to my loved ones allowing the kids to see their dad twice per week. Or i move, have a great support network and a social circle, but that would mean facetime for the kids and seeing H a couple of times per year.
I obviously want my kids to be happy, but i want to be happy too! I guess just a different perspective on the whole moving away thing.

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Gigi ~ I don't know much about your situation so I'm not going to make the common mistake of conflating your situation with mine.

Happiness is found within.

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Yes, absolutely, and im happy, but i could be happier, more comfortable, close to my parents who arent getting any younger, my brother and his family, all of my friends also.
I guess i picked up on your story because it was a male perspective on the situation. When H and I were together we planned to move to my home country together.

But I appreciate that the rationale for the move could be different for your W.

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It sounds like you two had a shared dream at one point to move to your home country, and your H is the WAS, so the dynamics may be different.

If you want to move back home, I urge you to be creative and think about ways to make that happen that give your H something he wants as well. It's not about what's fair or right. You have kids together and it is what it is. Otherwise, you are going to have to use the legal system. I also urge you to find happiness no matter your external circumstances.

As we were agreeing to the settlement terms, my STBXW let me know how unfair she thought everything was. What is fair, in her mind (or at least, expressed to me) was her moving back home to her friends and family and support network and better job opportunities and where she wants to live and it's best for the kids and on and on and on... She's made it clear she thinks I'm a bad father and person in court filings.

I can empathize with her desire to move home. I get it. If I didn't exist, that's what she would do and it makes sense. So....... why didn't she try to work something out? I *could* say that she's an uncompromising control freak, but that doesn't really demonstrate my DB skills. More kindly, I could say she was fully absorbed in her own world and probably didn't even consider that UC was a reasonable person who would work with her *provided she was also reasonable*. Trying to get her way with false accusations and court BS is a pretty bizarre tactic, but it does work sometimes and the court system allows it and there are plenty of L's willing to write whatever accusations you want them to write.

What frustrates me is that these dynamics are so common. Sometimes I wonder if there's a better system to help resolve D's for people, but I think there's no easy solution. There is an entire legal system in place to profit from the challenges people face in D. If at least one of the 2 people is going to act uncompromisingly, both are screwed. It just takes one person thinking "I want what's fair and I won't accept less" and then you head to nuclear war unless the other person is a shrinking violet. Sometimes both people want to destroy the other (not the case in my situation but I am aware it happens). There are lousy L's and ethical L's, but even the good ones can't help you if you are in a spiraling vortex headed towards legal and financial disaster. There's really only 2 options: (1) Bully your way into getting your adversary to back down; or (2) Work together with the other party to get a compromise which probably is bitter for you both to swallow but at least respects you both.

I tried #2 for 9 months. Counseling, mediation. This is what people do. They step up the ladder of conflict and try to resolve their D at the lowest rung in the simplest and most cost-effective way possible. Our mediator tried to cut down the tree limb by limb and resolve one issue at a time, and he saw that my STBXW was not going to budge on the issues that were important to me. There was no compromising. So mediation failed. By session 3 he was visibly frustrated with STBXW and telling us we were at an impasse.

I learned... I learned the way to deal with STBXW was not to compromise. I stood up for myself, always willing to compromise if she showed an inkling (which I made clear along the way), but not compromising by default. And it worked! She did not expect me to stand up for myself. We didn't end up settling financially because my STBXW was being reasonable. We settled because she backed herself into a corner with frivolous legal actions and put herself under enormous financial pressure. This was largely her own doing. If she didn't have that pressure, we would still be in court, with L's siphoning off our kids' future. This is how family court works.

Anyways... When I hear anyone (me, my STBXW, anyone on this forum or in real life) say what's "best for the kids", I automatically assume what follows is going to be something that is best for the person speaking and not actually, you know, for the kids. It's nearly always true. In fact, I would say what's best for my kids is probably not 50-50. What's best is having two parents actively involved in their lives (at least I think so based on the fact we both want that, and that is what experts say). Whether the timeshare has to be 50-50, well, that's just a tidy way for adults to handle these cases.

I share kids with a person and that complicates both of our lives. Neither of us want to have to deal with each other again. Too bad. The best thing for my kids is for me to figure out a way to co-parent and keep them out of the conflict. Oops I used the phrase =)

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Thank you, i really dont take these thoughts lightly, these arent emotional responses to something that H does, he is a good dad, be it that a very different one now. The moral dilemma is there, its always in the back of my mind. When i moved here (uk) i was 18, i really had no plans to stay, my whole family was elsewhere, it was a gap year situation and nothing more. I met H and well it went from there, im generally a very happy person, but as i get older and particularly as the kids were born i yearned for a connection with my heritage, so we planned to move about 2.5/3 year ago.

I really dont know if there is a better way to D or separate, the reality is that noone really wins….i dont want to talk in absolutes, obv there are critical and abusive situations where you need to get out.
I tend to look at these situations not as bad or good, but certain lessons that i have to learn, things i have to work through.
I had some tricky situation at work with staff over the years and two particular ones were really testing and affected me a lot, back then i thought, why me? I look back and i realise that after each of those situations there was a breakthrough ib my life, it was work life, so it ended in promotions both times. Its like i had to go through those testing times to be rewarded. So i look at my situation with H the same, i need to work through this, this is changing me, making me better and somehow im grateful. I know there will be a breakthrough at the end. But im an adult and in control of my own life, as much as one can control things, but my kids are in the middle, and always will be. I absolutely agree with you that we make decisions based on what makes us happy, so in the best interest of the kids tends to be whats best for mum or dad, depending on circumstances. I don't really know anyone who is totally selfless when it comes to these things.

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Unichen, standing up to a bully is usually the best way to deal with them. Early in your sitch you actively enabled some of her bad behavior. Rather than blaming her, think about your actions. For example, you say she limited your time with the kids but what stopped you from refusing to move out of the house and accepting less time with the kids? As all the vets say, focus on your what you can control. This is true even in your process of healing and eventually forgiveness.

Gigi, I am not familiar with your sitch so I cannot offer specific advice. However, in my opinion children benefit from having both their parents involved in their life. If I were in your position, I would think about whether it is in the best interest of my kids to separate them from their father, especially if he is a good father to them. I would also think about how my kids would feel when they grow up and realize that I limited time with their other parent because it was convenient for ME. I am curious if the law there will allow you to move without the consent of the kids father?

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I dont want to take over the thread with my issues. H is obv not keen for this to happen, but said he would always support the boys. Legally its complicated, kids have dual nationality. Essentially we could leave the country, and then everything else will have to go through court, which takes years. This is NOT what i want to happen for my children, not how i want to live either, looking over my shoulder constantly. So if this were to happen it would be with agreement from both parties around what this might look like.

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Gigi, it's a tough situation and I know it's not an easy decision for you or you exH. Prayers that you both can work something out that is an amicable solution!

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I always appreciated when some folks who went through this process posted regular updates so I'm hoping to pay it forward.

Busy month so far ~ I had to move to a new rental home and had a week off with my kids. Lawyers are trying to hammer out the final settlement agreement (we already agreed to basic terms) which is taking awhile, and I still have some massive legal bills to pay. I'm hoping I can get my feet set in the next year and start saving money rather than hemorrhaging, and find a more permanent living situation once I have access to money (although the housing market is insane right now).

The conclusion of my intense D has taken away something that was a major energy drain, but also something to focus on. It's strange sometimes to NOT have to work on legal things.

I feel a little lost at times ~ sort of a "what is the point of all this?" (I am not religious) ~ but I've learned at those times to go make myself busy -- go for a run, contact a friend, etc. I'm realizing I need to work on building up a support network now that things are opening up again to make this more manageable.

Originally Posted by MLCxH
For example, you say she limited your time with the kids but what stopped you from refusing to move out of the house and accepting less time with the kids? As all the vets say, focus on your what you can control. This is true even in your process of healing and eventually forgiveness.


I 100% agree that one shouldn't move out of the house absent an extenuating circumstance. There was a game of chicken going on because of the content of my apology letter and her implicit threats to file an RO and move away with the kids, things that a court in my state would have granted immediately and I would have had to fight for years to dig out of. She was consulting with the top move-away L in our area. Maybe she was bluffing and would not have gone through with it, but there is no way I could have handled the anxiety and stress at that time. It was incredibly toxic and she seemed like a loose cannon in the counseling sessions we were attending.

I fully admit there was a piece of me that still hoped for R. It's hard to disentangle that from the legal issues at hand. Because I definitely was adding other justifications to move out which were based on R hope -- and those I admit were very poor reasons.

I don't know, somehow, two years later, things have worked out. I'm lucky and grateful. I made mistakes, I know, but it worked out. It could have been much worse.

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