The discussion of forgiveness is really interesting to me as it is something I'm thinking about a lot right now.
Thanks may, and glad to hear from you.
I actually couldn't care less about forgiveness right now. But that's what is interesting to me... trying to figure out why I don't care.
My legal situation was long and winding and something I didn't post much about here for obvious reasons. I had to detach quickly and learn to manage my interactions with XW almost perfectly, because literally everything that was said or written was liable to be filed as evidence in a courtroom. I couldn't say, "Whoops, slipped up today, raised voices with XW, what do you guys think?". She was insisting we exchange the kids in a dark location in the middle of the wilderness with no cameras, while at the same time insisting I was unsafe and dangerous. It was scary. She made false allegations. I cannot overemphasize this enough... I was under the microscope. She hired the most aggressive and notorious law firm in the area, known in particular for move-away cases. Because she refused to work for two years, I was literally on the hook to pay HER bills to fight me in court and limit my time with the kids. It is absolutely insane how the system works sometimes.
That is only the tip of the iceberg, for some flavor.
Anyways, I get it, some of you have situations that are tougher in some ways as far as questioning the relationship. You have partners that are waffling, or give you mixed signals. You still see the good in them, you still question why it can't work. They show you some hints of their old selves. Or you realize if you change that a MR 2.0 might be possible, if they are open to the idea. Maybe that's why forgiveness is more on your minds. I don't know.
My relationship was dead a long time ago. I don't miss it. I know what you all are probably thinking: "This is what WAS's do and sometime down the road they turn around and have to face their demons." Problem is, she's always been this way -- not accepting responsibility for relationship issues -- whether with her family, friends, whatever. I just don't care -- why would I want to spend any more time around somebody like that? I just missed the red flags when I met her. I have one life to live (not religious here) and worrying about whether to forgive my XW, who, quite honestly, did some absolutely heinous things the past few years -- it's just not going to happen.
Maybe I'll forgive one day. Right now I just don't care. At all. I'm not angry, I'm just indifferent to the idea. I just escaped a multi-year surreal nightmare. I just got a settlement. I'm out. I'm a better person for what I've gone through. I'm happy.
Well done buddy. Happy for you. Now first you have to relearn how to breathe, take the air in with full lungs and you deserve to scream as you are victorious. As on of the last lines in my favorite movie of all times (Shawshank redemption) said: "Andy Dufresne - who crawled through a river of s*** and came out clean on the other side." That's you, buddy. You should be pround.
Forgiveness is a process, not a destination. Its nothing you have to communicate out loud to anyone or even here on the forum. You just decide to start doing it and do it.
Neither of my parents forgave each other following their D. They are old and bitter now. Because of that, my siblings have recently decided that even our sibling relationship, which was a strong bond for decades, is now no longer worth keeping. Its breaking my heart but I get it.
Not saying that will happen for you. Every situation is unique. It is only one potential real world outcome. It is what it is and life goes on.
I'm sorry you had to go through everything you did. It sounds horrible. I can't imagine how difficult it must have been. Processing it will take time.
Hi CW, I feel that is a simplistic definition of forgiveness. In reality, forgiveness is much more complex. If you are setting boundaries of no contact due to the prior actions of the other person, it means you are still affected by their actions and have not absolved them completely even if you choose not to be resentful.
But yes, if you go by that simple definition of forgiveness equating to not being resentful, I agree with what SteveLW said about forgiving for you and not the other person.
I agree it is more complex than the simple definition of it. However, I do think forgiving and holding a person accountable are two different things. I think that is what CW was getting to. An example of that is when a victim's family forgives a murderer for their crime. They still expect that the person spend the rest of their life in prison. Forgiven actions still have consequences. Not sure if you're a Bible student at all but even the Biblical definition of forgiveness still involves consequences.
But in general forgiveness involves letting go of the bitterness, anger and resentment over a past wrong. That, as CW pointed out, doesn't mean you forget the wrong as the best predictor of future behavior is past, relevant behavior. If someone steals money from me I can forgive them, but it doesn't mean I put them in charge of my wallet in the future
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
The discussion of forgiveness is really interesting to me as it is something I'm thinking about a lot right now.
Thanks may, and glad to hear from you.
I actually couldn't care less about forgiveness right now. But that's what is interesting to me... trying to figure out why I don't care.
My legal situation was long and winding and something I didn't post much about here for obvious reasons. I had to detach quickly and learn to manage my interactions with XW almost perfectly, because literally everything that was said or written was liable to be filed as evidence in a courtroom. I couldn't say, "Whoops, slipped up today, raised voices with XW, what do you guys think?". She was insisting we exchange the kids in a dark location in the middle of the wilderness with no cameras, while at the same time insisting I was unsafe and dangerous. It was scary. She made false allegations. I cannot overemphasize this enough... I was under the microscope. She hired the most aggressive and notorious law firm in the area, known in particular for move-away cases. Because she refused to work for two years, I was literally on the hook to pay HER bills to fight me in court and limit my time with the kids. It is absolutely insane how the system works sometimes.
That is only the tip of the iceberg, for some flavor.
Anyways, I get it, some of you have situations that are tougher in some ways as far as questioning the relationship. You have partners that are waffling, or give you mixed signals. You still see the good in them, you still question why it can't work. They show you some hints of their old selves. Or you realize if you change that a MR 2.0 might be possible, if they are open to the idea. Maybe that's why forgiveness is more on your minds. I don't know.
My relationship was dead a long time ago. I don't miss it. I know what you all are probably thinking: "This is what WAS's do and sometime down the road they turn around and have to face their demons." Problem is, she's always been this way -- not accepting responsibility for relationship issues -- whether with her family, friends, whatever. I just don't care -- why would I want to spend any more time around somebody like that? I just missed the red flags when I met her. I have one life to live (not religious here) and worrying about whether to forgive my XW, who, quite honestly, did some absolutely heinous things the past few years -- it's just not going to happen.
Maybe I'll forgive one day. Right now I just don't care. At all. I'm not angry, I'm just indifferent to the idea. I just escaped a multi-year surreal nightmare. I just got a settlement. I'm out. I'm a better person for what I've gone through. I'm happy.
Completely understandable, unchien. I often refer to these sitches as trauma. Trauma is not easily overcome. (Coincidentally, this is also why I'm a huge advocate for IC for the LBS. Trauma requires counseling to properly navigate.) Understand we are on your side!
Last edited by SteveLW; 06/23/2112:27 PM.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Forgiveness is not for the other person....it is for you! So forgive them FOR YOU, not for them.
So this to me is is like telling someone to detach. Yep it's a great and beautiful concept if it were only that easy. I absolutely think you can not forgive and not be bitter. I also think forgiveness can come over time just like detachment. There are so many variables.
Let's also remember that if forgiveness was so easy we wouldn't have any LBS in this forum.
There's a school of thought in the universe that forgiveness is some grand gesture bestowed upon the transgressor by the transgressed. That some how the transgressed person is a morally superior being who is given the power to wield that forgiveness or withhold it. In my life long experiences with awful people some in my life by chance some by choice that's simply not what forgiveness is. Forgiveness is a gift to yourself. It's a path to walk away from all the anger, all the hurt, all the frustration, all the trauma. It's an opportunity to release yourself from the shackles of that time in your life and the power a person like that holds over you. Forgiveness isn't some magical absolvent of all transgressions and ill will. It's a process of relinquishing control. It's the ultimate level of detachment.
This isn't an attack on you or your progress. This isn't a 2x4. Forgiveness is a genuine part of the process here. People who ignore it or don't think it's necessary often find themselves much too far down the road wrapped up in emotional baggage, and bitterness leaving them very much alone to further spiral into more bitterness (i.e. IW's parents). You don't need to forgive exW today, tomorrow or next week. It's wonderful that you've reached a level of apathy with exW. It's also perfectly normal and acceptable to settle in to your new hopefully calmer less traumatic life before continuing on your healing journey. We all need respite. We all need times to just luxuriate in the relief of closing a chapter. But it's important that you don't get complacent in your process here. Apathy and indifference are far too often just the result of burying all the other feelings because that's what's easiest to move on in the immediate. I think that's the the main sentiment here, a reminder that the next step in this whole disaster isn't a continuous state of apathy or indifference. That at some point some day if you want to be a whole, happy, healthy U, long term, you'll need to start exploring the path of forgiveness, what it means, what it looks like, and what you need to forgive yourself for in the process. And like Steve said more often than not it's best to be going on this journey with IC. An unbiased 3rd party to hold you accountable and conversely has no truly vested interest so won't rush you through the process.
I preach about this like it's gospel. If you look at a lot of my posts to people nearing the end I bring it up over and over because understanding this fully helped me recover from my childhood trauma, and my exH. Releasing myself from the chains that bind me to people who've hurt me, who've scarred me, has changed my entire outlook on myself, my boundaries, my relationships and my chronic depression.
You have gone through SO. MUCH. I truly can't imagine how it must have felt to have the person who you chose to spend your life with and raise children together with act in the ways she has. It is simply wrong, on so many levels. I am really glad you updated as I think about you often and truly, what you have gone through--at the hands of a person who you trusted and loved--is difficult to comprehend. You are strong and I am so happy to hear you are on the other side of all this.
In reading through your post and the responses of others, I guess I would just share a few thoughts for you to take or leave:
-- you deserve a break and you should take one. You have had to be so "on" all the time to defend yourself and your children that I hope you can give yourself a major mental break for awhile, to heal and recuperate.
-- I agree that what you have gone through can rightly be called trauma.
-- I guess I wonder if you have been able to truly grieve and process all the feelings and loss you have experienced? Not saying the loss of your XW (you are certainly better off without that toxicity any more in your life than necessary) but the loss of what you thought you had, the loss of the dreams you had together? Not that this would be the appropriate time for any of that, but I do agree with WF that perhaps the current detachment you are experiencing is a trauma response and that you will probably want to address what lies beneath at some point in the future. Maybe something to consider in the new year, to at least check in with yourself?
--I know you practice yoga and meditation and surf (which I think I remember you saying was kind of a meditative process for you). Are you still doing this? I feel -- at least when you were posting regularly before-- that you were someone who was really in touch with yourself and honest with yourself about how you were doing. My question is to you is-- do YOU think you're burying your feelings under the detachment or were you able to process it all in real time? This has been such a lengthy situation and you do have such self-awareness that it is quite possible you have. And again... no need to dig into any of this now. Just a question for some time in the future, once you've been able to breathe again for a bit.
And if you are still regularly practicing meditation-- what do you think about the loving kindness meditation? That might be helpful for you, once you're ready, to think about forgiveness in a different way.
xx M
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I'm going to take a break from discussing forgiveness because, well, things are a little bit hectic here.
I just accepted a new position where I work which I am very excited about. I also am packing up to move out of the house I moved into 2 years ago this weekend. I have a lot of heavy mixed emotions -- remembering unpacking while going nearly 3 weeks without seeing my kids, learning how to be single father, spending so much time in the house during the pandemic. My youngest has been crying that she will miss this house, and I guess a part of me will miss it too, but to me it represents a transition that is ending now and there are great things ahead.
Originally Posted by may22
-- I guess I wonder if you have been able to truly grieve and process all the feelings and loss you have experienced? Not saying the loss of your XW (you are certainly better off without that toxicity any more in your life than necessary) but the loss of what you thought you had, the loss of the dreams you had together? Not that this would be the appropriate time for any of that, but I do agree with WF that perhaps the current detachment you are experiencing is a trauma response and that you will probably want to address what lies beneath at some point in the future. Maybe something to consider in the new year, to at least check in with yourself?
Oh, there's definitely some complicated emotions. What works for me is what I've learned from meditation -- being curious and observant about what's going on with me emotionally without any urge or need to resolve it. Unfortunately I've been slacking on both surf and meditation with all the things going on in my life lately (although ultimately, that's just excuse making, isn't it?)
I devoured books about my situation when I first moved out. I posted here a ton, I was staying up all night reading other people's situations and connecting with certain aspects. I had this need to resolve things. Problem solving, fixing. It doesn't work, and I was just burning energy spinning.
Maybe "try hard" works for some people. For me, I needed to just let things sit, like I said. And I started to sort things out and achieve some level of balance and equanimity. It's an elusive feeling but when it hits, it feels right. Like, I'm not ignoring things, but I'm also not letting those things define me. Easy to say, hard to do.
Another key thing that has helped me is self-care. Something as simple as not feeling guilty when I choose to be unproductive on a weekend because I need to unwind.
For now, mostly, I just need a break. It's been very intense. The negotiations became intense. My XW was messaging me with all sorts of emotional bait and it went down to the last second. So I am going to unwind a bit and disconnect from that madness just a bit while I sort out my move. But I won't be ignoring what's going on with me and how it's affecting my happiness and my relationships with other people (most importantly my kids).
I havent read all of your sitch and it sounds like you need some time to sot on all of this. In terms of forgiveness i have started listening to an audibook, colin Tipping-radical forgiveness. Its a different concept to what we perceive as forgiveness, i was very much fighting it when i started listening, but its growing on me, and i realised that i havent fully forgiven H, although i was confident I had.
