As someone who was a pretty crappy husband for a longtime, I can give you this perspective: the worst feeling in the world is to truly and sincerely want true forgiveness and not be able to get it.
It sounds like he's truly and sincerely 180'd, as you say, is in it 100%, and wants desperately to have a fresh new start and to work on things from this point forward.
I forget if you are in IC or not, but you should be. To help you navigate the feelings and anger. And I'd also highly recommend finding a good MC, one that has experience helping couples heal from infidelity. Faith-based is my highest recommendation for both since they are pro-marriage and won't be as likely to push you towards D and being a WAW yourself.
In Dec. of 2018, a year after my own BD, with my W trying very hard to make up for the past, my anger and bitterness led me to almost walkaway myself. It was a weird feeling, almost as if someone else were in control of my thoughts and feelings. I had to take step back from the urge to blow things up and BD her, and just take it slow. It got better and I'm glad I was patient with myself because once I came through it I was ready to embrace and work hard on marriage 2.0 with her.
Just keep hanging in there and work on letting go of the anger and bitterness. Resentment is not conducive to moving onward and upward.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I'm sorry you're struggling a little. You're at least self-aware enough to realize it and what you need to do next. Anyway, Happy Mother's Day, sending ((Hugs)) and well-wishes your way.
(The following is quoted from Michele on a previous KLA forum)
"1. The first Golden Rule, "Do real giving" talks about the importance of doing to others what others would have done unto them, a definite twist on the real Golden Rule. What do you think about this?
2. The second Golden Rule, "Don't forget to laugh," reminds you about the importance of humor in marriage. Can you think of a time when you solved a marital problem by using your sense of humor?
3. The third Golden Rule, "Listen to each other," reminds you about the importance of putting aside your commentaries, reactions, and defensiveness and just simply acknowledging your partner's point of view. What do you think about this idea?
4. The fourth Golden Rule, "Live by the stranger standard," discusses the importance of treating your spouse at least as well as you might a complete stranger. What do you think about this?
5. The fifth Golden Rule, "Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself," emphasizes the vast benefits of letting go and forgiving your partner. Do you find it difficult to forgive your partner when you feel wronged? What methods have you found helpful to move you beyond a lack of forgiveness? You can re-read the article I wrote on forgiveness, if that will help.
6. Can you think of any other inspirational Golden Rules that you would like to add to my list?
Well? Michele"
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
First and foremost check out what SteveLW has linked here for you. Digging through the old stuff to find good things about piecing is arduous and time consuming. He just saved you a lot of time and energy.
Next, yay for you on your week off and alone time. And holy h3ll did you walk into a sh!tstorm with that new job. I think it's going to be a really good thing for you in the long run, but I'm sure in the short term it'll be a headache. However I honestly think this is probably exactly what you need. If you have less bandwidth to expend the energy it takes to hang on to pain and fear of the past, perhaps this will help you along. You'll have no other choice than to focus on today and tomorrow instead of yesterday.
What I told you that previously about hanging on longer than your H, I was speaking from what my friend told me from the heart, and my own experience. ExH brought up my A constantly. Every fight. Every time he was left to his own thoughts for too long. It colored any conversation we had with any depth. It colored our s3x life. It was sprinkled in everything I did good or bad. I'm not saying you need to let this go tomorrow and forget about it. It was a very long drawn out A. You have every reason on the planet to be struggling along here. The thing is exactly how I feel and have felt about forgiveness in this situation or any other is fairly close to MWD's thoughts. The anger and fear imprison you and hold your spouse hostage in suspended animation. The fact is even if you left him you'd have to eventually forgive him. Not because he deserved it, but because you do. Forgiveness is pretty word for letting go. We like to pretend it's some kind of grand miraculous gesture. It's not. It's the act of choosing to no longer be chained by the actions of another. It's detachment in another form. I've forgiven my step-father because it's what's best for me. I've forgiven my mother. My ex-H. My current H. Not because any of them deserved it, but because all of the weight I had to bare holding on. IMHO it isn't so much let bygones be bygones as it is giving yourself permission to live your life without the actions of others holding you back.
My point with all this is H is trying, H is moving on and has every desire to move on WITH you. I think it's ok to sit in your feelings when they wash over you like that. I think it's ok to not forget about the lost years in your MR and why they were lost years. I think though that if you really want MR 2.0 that you have to be part of that process to. You have to make the choice to leave MR 1.0 behind. These sitches are like forest fires. The devastation is impossible to deny, but with time it all grows back sometimes even more beautifully than before. You weren't fortunate enough for it to have been a controlled burn. But this is the lot you've been dealt. Is it worth your time to focus on how you got to regrowth or is it time better spent cultivating what's left to be better than it was before?
Steve, these resources are so helpful-- I really appreciate it. We're in the process of scheduling MC to see how that goes. Glass says it is better to just focus on MC if you can rather than having two processes going at the same time-- I'm not sure about that yet. H thinks I need an IC to help me process the anger. I'm not sure, think I'll see how it goes and go forward from there. The last time I was in IC it felt like she was more reinforcing my feelings than anything else-- it felt GREAT, of course, to have someone 100% in my corner, but not necessarily great for my M. Also, I partially feel like my H should have some level of connecting about my (hard-earned) feelings of anger and betrayal-- they shouldn't just be my problem that i process on my own.
Though I'm chewing on this and also wayfarer's comments. What is mine to work through, what is his, and what is ours? Why am I having such a hard time with the concept of forgiveness? Wayfarer, what you wrote about your exH bringing your A into every conversation... I cringed when I read that, because I know my H feels the same way right now about our life together. He could have written every single word. I WANT to get to forgiveness. I just don't know exactly how to do it. Maybe part of me is still scared to let go. And/or I don't feel my H has sufficiently sat in understanding just how $hitty his behavior was towards me and how it felt on my side to be betrayed by the one person in the world I thought was there for me no matter what.
My H thinks I keep moving the goal line, that he's giving me everything I asked for and I never want to focus on the positive, just the negative. For example: I spent more time on our anniversary reflected on the $hit way he had behaved during our last few anniversaries than feeling positive about the progress we'd made since then. True. Why do I do that?
Or, for whatever reason, even though he's told me he doesn't love her anymore, he loves me, he wishes it never happened, it was a horrible mistake and he wishes he could take it back and make different choices-- all the things I was wanting him to say-- it still doesn't feel like enough. I feel like I want him to realize and verbalize to me that he was mistaken when he thought the feelings that he had for her was love, that it was just a stupid sad middle-aged fantasy and he feels stupid and embarrassed that he even believed for a minute that it was "love."
He thinks it is unhealthy for me to be so focused on things he did or did not feel in the past. That I should focus on the present and also focus more on OUR relationship and how we feel about and treat each other today, not how he previously felt about someone else. Also, he can't authentically tell me right now that he thinks she's a stupid POS or that he didn't ever care about her at all, so won't, that maybe he'll get there eventually but he won't lie about it and so that is kind of where we are. Which when I'm feeling rational I can agree with. But also I have this other part of me that just isn't okay with the idea that he did have a fully-fledged relationship and care about someone else IN THE MIDDLE OF OUR MARRIAGE. Someone awhile back (Alison? I wish she was still around) suggested I might need a ritual to end M1.0. Maybe something like that to let me be okay with the fact that we weren't really married during his affair? (But I thought we were? It is all just still really anger-inducing for me.)
He is VERY motivated to get us to have these conversations in front of a trained professional. He told me he really really wants to talk about this, all of it, but thinks we really need to do it in MC rather than on our own, and I think he's right. So he has been in contact with the MC and working on scheduling (which was earlier a goalpost for me-- he'd been all over scheduling MC back when he wanted to check it off as a waypoint towards D, so I'd felt like it would mean something if he was the one to take the lead in scheduling MC for us. And now we're here, so I'm counting that as positive.)
Anyway. Forgiveness. Easier said than done. Will keep you guys updated on MC.
xx M
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
1. find a new IC that is marriage positive (Mine has been a huge help in me navigating the reconciliation and the early days of piecing when any mood change or tiff would make me cry because I felt like he was counting points against me. That was all me not him, he was in but I spent so much time being weighed against OW I couldn't let that pageant contest feeling go. She also helped me a lot with communicating and articulating my anger and sadness without "attacking" or seeming like I was doing so). The amount of anger and resentment you have can't be washed away but you sincerely wanting MR 2.0 but living in and holding on to MR 1.0 is a contradictory thought process and you need someone to guide you through this if you can't see yourself getting there on your own any time soon.
2.Do the ceremony do what ever you need to do to make your brain realize this is a new relationship this is a fresh start. His job is to let OW go without regret. He's done that. You're job is to let your anger go. You haven't. It's always been that way. You know how much I care about you, but these unrealistic expectations for him to hate OW or be disgusted by her is in all honesty, an immature requisite. If he's disgusted with himself. He's reached true remorse. You can't ask for more than that. It's unfair regardless of how awful and gross he had been. You can't hinge your forgiveness on unrealistic expectations. You can't hinge your forgiveness on him at all. It's not about him. It's about you.
3. Him wanting to resolve this through MC on his own fruition is one of the steps of R and piecing all the vets talk about. H is doing his work. What step in R and piecing do you think you can take to get one step closer to H on that bridge of piecing? Maybe baby steps, much like H took in the beginning here is what you need to move toward forgiveness. What baby step can you do? Maybe a viewing of What About Bob to take those baby step with a spoonful of sugar instead of swallowing that bitter pill dry?
Steve, these resources are so helpful-- I really appreciate it. We're in the process of scheduling MC to see how that goes. Glass says it is better to just focus on MC if you can rather than having two processes going at the same time-- I'm not sure about that yet. H thinks I need an IC to help me process the anger. I'm not sure, think I'll see how it goes and go forward from there. The last time I was in IC it felt like she was more reinforcing my feelings than anything else-- it felt GREAT, of course, to have someone 100% in my corner, but not necessarily great for my M. Also, I partially feel like my H should have some level of connecting about my (hard-earned) feelings of anger and betrayal-- they shouldn't just be my problem that i process on my own.
Again, your anger and issues with the betrayal ARE yours. He cannot help you anymore than he has. MC will deal with that but I really really think a good, pro-marriage IC would do you a lot of good. It is HIS job to do everything he can from this moment forward to be completely committed and vested to the MR and to proving to you his loyalty. It is up to you to deal with your anger and PTSD related to the past, and healing from it.
Originally Posted by may22
Though I'm chewing on this and also wayfarer's comments. What is mine to work through, what is his, and what is ours? Why am I having such a hard time with the concept of forgiveness? Wayfarer, what you wrote about your exH bringing your A into every conversation... I cringed when I read that, because I know my H feels the same way right now about our life together. He could have written every single word. I WANT to get to forgiveness. I just don't know exactly how to do it. Maybe part of me is still scared to let go. And/or I don't feel my H has sufficiently sat in understanding just how $hitty his behavior was towards me and how it felt on my side to be betrayed by the one person in the world I thought was there for me no matter what.
PTSD. You are afraid to trust because last time you did you got your feelings crushed. So now you like the idea of your MR2.0, but you afraid to embrace it fully due to the last time. It is like touching a hot stove. I remember when I was 6, my 2 year-old sister put her hands on the hot oven door while my mom was baking something. Burnt both her palms pretty badly. She wouldn't touch the stove afterwards even when it was cool! You are the same way. You got your hands burned touching his oven, and now that his oven is safe and cool you are still afraid to touch it. A good IC can help you work through that.
Originally Posted by may22
My H thinks I keep moving the goal line, that he's giving me everything I asked for and I never want to focus on the positive, just the negative. For example: I spent more time on our anniversary reflected on the $hit way he had behaved during our last few anniversaries than feeling positive about the progress we'd made since then. True. Why do I do that?
See the last paragraph I typed. THat's why. You are remembering the hurt....and until you can get past that you will still hold him responsible for that hurt. Even though he's done everything in his power to make up for it.
Originally Posted by may22
Or, for whatever reason, even though he's told me he doesn't love her anymore, he loves me, he wishes it never happened, it was a horrible mistake and he wishes he could take it back and make different choices-- all the things I was wanting him to say-- it still doesn't feel like enough. I feel like I want him to realize and verbalize to me that he was mistaken when he thought the feelings that he had for her was love, that it was just a stupid sad middle-aged fantasy and he feels stupid and embarrassed that he even believed for a minute that it was "love."
Strange isn't it. In the thick of your sitch when he was cheating on you, you would have loved for him to come to you and said the above. Now he has said it you are having trouble getting over it. This is why I tell LBSs all the time that Ring and piecing isn't the holding hands, walking into the sunset under a God-given rainbow that we fantasize. It is hard, tough, arduous work. It will test you to the core. Some LBSs try it and decide it is too hard and they become the WAS (I almost did!). No one could blame you if it was too much to overcome and you couldn't do it. I think of Rachel after Ross made his "we were on a break" mistake, it was just too much for her to overcome. The thought of Ross with this girl, naked, doing what you should only be doing with the one your a committed to! Maybe you cannot get over it. And if you cannot then you have every right to make the choice to D and move forward with your life. He couldn't even blame you, even though he might be unhappy about it.
Originally Posted by may22
He thinks it is unhealthy for me to be so focused on things he did or did not feel in the past. That I should focus on the present and also focus more on OUR relationship and how we feel about and treat each other today, not how he previously felt about someone else. Also, he can't authentically tell me right now that he thinks she's a stupid POS or that he didn't ever care about her at all, so won't, that maybe he'll get there eventually but he won't lie about it and so that is kind of where we are. Which when I'm feeling rational I can agree with. But also I have this other part of me that just isn't okay with the idea that he did have a fully-fledged relationship and care about someone else IN THE MIDDLE OF OUR MARRIAGE. Someone awhile back (Alison? I wish she was still around) suggested I might need a ritual to end M1.0. Maybe something like that to let me be okay with the fact that we weren't really married during his affair? (But I thought we were? It is all just still really anger-inducing for me.)
I agree with him. It is unhealthy for you to be so focused on that. That is why I am so strongly advocating for IC. Maybe you will never be able to be with him and NOT focus on that. But you owe it to yourself, not to him, to do everything you can to see if you can get past all of it. IC is one of those ways. See my above paragraph.
As far as the ritual to end M1.0, whatever works I am for. Maybe a 2nd marriage ceremony? A recommit to marriage vows? But the problem is to me is that those are band-aids, They treat the symptoms, not the underlying disease. I think you need IC to get over the PTSD.
Originally Posted by may22
He is VERY motivated to get us to have these conversations in front of a trained professional. He told me he really really wants to talk about this, all of it, but thinks we really need to do it in MC rather than on our own, and I think he's right. So he has been in contact with the MC and working on scheduling (which was earlier a goalpost for me-- he'd been all over scheduling MC back when he wanted to check it off as a waypoint towards D, so I'd felt like it would mean something if he was the one to take the lead in scheduling MC for us. And now we're here, so I'm counting that as positive.)
MC cannot be just having these conversations. MC should be about reconnecting, moving forward, and looking to the future. Maybe one session early on to deal with the A, but the problem is that if you do not move past that conversation in MC, then MC will just be a recurring reminder of the A. I see MC working for two fully committed spouses. Right now I do not see you being fully committed. I see you being a potential WAS yourself now. I feel that until you can get over the PTSD, get over the A, and heal from the hurt that MC is going to devolve into him saying: "We had a good week, we did X, Y, and Z." and you responding by saying "Yeah, but, the A!" That will get you no where. MC with IC. Or IC for you first is the only way I see you moving past all of the hurt and betrayal.
Originally Posted by may22
Anyway. Forgiveness. Easier said than done. Will keep you guys updated on MC.
Forgiveness is for you. Forgiveness doesn't mean the offense committer doesn't have consequences. I think of families that have forgiven a murderer for murdering a loved one. Their forgiveness doesn't get them out of their life sentence! I am a Christian. I believe in forgiveness from sin, but the sin of murder, even forgiven by God, still has Earthly consequences!
So you could forgive him (let go of the hurt, anger, and bitterness) but still D him. Forgiveness works outside of consequences. I've been on record myself that if my W had actually had a PA, not just an EA, I would have D'd her. I still feel that way.
Originally Posted by may22
xx M
Anyway, lots to digest. Hang in there May. One way or another you will move forward!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
There is a podcast called "Other People's Problems" by CBC and there is a client called Franklin who's W had an A and left him. The podcast is the therapy sessions and in reading your post, I remembered a part of the segment that I think will resonate with you and is along the lines of what SteveLW is expressing above. I listened again this am so I could write it down as close as I could to put it on here. They are discussing Franklin dating again and struggling with trust, but I think it still applies as M2.0 would be a new beginning, similar to a new relationship.
Season 2, Episode 6: "Hurt leads to fear. Insulating you from getting hurt again. The thing you are afraid of has already happened, and it was awful, and it hurt, AND you lived through it. Hold with you that you are afraid and it comes from the hurt. This has no bearing on what happens in the future. It’s your brain, and it is wired to protect you from what hurt you before. So in a relationship where you have been wounded, your brain is saying, stay away, but the paradox is that is the only place where you can heal.
You need to come to a point where you can see that a relationship is what it is, without the FEAR telling you what it is. So if things are going well, I want you to see that things are going well, and if things are not going well, I want you to be able to see that things are not going well. Not with fear filtering everything.
Be aware that you are afraid. And be aware that the thing you are afraid of has already happened. Be aware of those two things at the same time. Fear is a rational fear (no fear is irrational). It’s our brains way of protecting us. But we don’t want the fear to take over, but it comes from the place of hurt. We need to help heal you so that you don’t become afraid in places where you don’t need to be afraid anymore."
You H will be impatient and that has to be seperate from your healing. Your situation took time to happen, and it will take at least that long if not more to heal or work through what has happened. And SteveLW is right that this is your hurt, and your fear. It is what you have to work on. I do think that some working through the infidelity will happen in MC. But those parts are healing only aspects of what happened. When it comes to your fear, you have to work on that part alone. No one can take that on for you. It's internal. Your H can provide you with understanding and support, but it's up to you to do that work for you. And it's critical because even if you can't make it through to M2.0 with your H, the fear will prevent you from being able to move forward with any relationship you may have in the future.
I see this as seperate from forgiveness. Or in my case, accepting that my H's affair happened and choosing to not focus on the pain and trying to win him back is my way of doing the act of detachment for myself. But for me the word forgiveness feels different than that, as if I am letting him know that I am okay, as if I am sharing that with him. I am not. I am just doing the act of moving forward, and I'm doing it all for me.
I know for myself that I have been very open and trusting in my relationships up until now. So I am fully aware that I have this fear now myself, and I will need to work my way through it too. What has happened to us is the biggest betrayal there is. Recognize that it's monumental. It's hard. It hurts deeply. It won't heal in a day. But both of us are still here. We are walking, talking and loving. We survived the worst part of it. Yes, this part is still hard, but this part has hope. Hope for something better (for you M2.0 and for me my future before me without my H). Accept the fear, but don't let it rule you. I know its easier said than done. But you are doing great! Just keep moving forward day by day and with the fear guiding you but not ruling you.
xo
El
Me 52, H 56 T10 M7, 2nd MR for both 2 Step Sons (19 and 21) BD: Fall 2020 D finalized: July 2022 XH Married AP soon after D day.
