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Wayfarer don't get you knickers in a bunch. It was a joke based on one of your posts that laterally made me spit my coffee.

"My respect for person isn't based in how they treat themselves, in my anecdotal experiences, straight men tend to be of a quite self serving breed. Being nice or being a jerk. It's all about payoff."

Interesting how I can laugh that off but you guys are infuriated by a quote.


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“Don't chase people. Be yourself, do your own thing and work hard. The right people - the ones who really belong in your life - will come to you and stay.”- Will Smith
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Originally Posted by wayfarer
Yeah me having this crazy requirement that men don't talk about women like they're another species and that some how in no way are equal, as well as, refusing to live in a magical land where people some how lack entirely either traditional masculine or feminine traits definitely makes me a man hater. Oh, ok. I was willing to roll with the joke previously because it felt like a joke. It doesn't any more. Seriously, if I hated men that much I'd be single, stay single and use men. But I don't. I love and respect men, just as much as I love and respect women and non-binary people. Simply because I won't kowtow to many times over debunked gender pseudo-science does not mean I hate anyone. The fact is if what I'm saying is offensive when I stand up for how trite, belittling and reductionist those statements are about women or those with effeminate traits I think that says a lot more about the reader than the writer. I'm not asking that an entire sex be wiped out. I'm asking to not have an entire group of people be reduced to a monolith and forced into a box of archaic expectations. That's not hate. That's called self respect. This isn't a zero sum game. And the fact that that has to be said is sad.

Also to clarify and simply because I was asked by R2C, I don't like when my H acts like a child, not "feminine", like a child petulant or otherwise. I'm not his mother. Children have problems with emotional regulation, because they are children. Children have problem with boundaries because they are children. Children have problems anticipating or fully understanding the needs of others because their not yet fully formed brains make them self focused as their little bodies and minds are functioning on a much lower level of Maslow's Hierarchy of needs. Children have difficulty putting the needs of other's first for the same reason. Adults who behave like children well into their 30s, 40s and 50s are a turn off for literally every one. Men and women alike, and I've met both. H and I, like every other human person on the planet, brings both masculine and feminine energy and traits into our relationship. I however due to years and years of therapy and being forced, either by chance or circumstance, am more emotionally and intellectually mature. Our situation has forced him a long here, and hopefully in the years to come he can further address his arrested development in a professional setting so we can continue to grow together.



My only ask is: Please do not assume that because one recognizes differences between the sexes, that they are "belittling and reductionist". I have often recognized one of the irrefutable differences in the sexes, the ability of women to give birth to a new human-being, as one of the indicators that women are stronger than men!

But do I think men and women approach things like relationships, marriage and sex in very different ways? I absolutely do. And I think we'd be doing LBSs of both sexes a complete disservice to pretend that they do not. But the mere recognition of differences in the sexes in no way inherently elevates one gender over the other. I am not saying that there are not those that do that, but framing everyone that recognizes differences between men and women as "belittling and/or reductionist", is in and of itself reductionist. (WF, I am not saying that is what you were trying to suggest, but some could read your response above as saying just that.) I'd also point out that MWD herself recognizes the differences between men and women in her own writings and words.

I also think that the differences in perspectives of the posters here is why this forum works. We are not always going to agree on everything, but the advice comes from a place of trying to help the LBS that is being responded to. And the LBSs themselves can decide what advice they value and what advice they do not. This is why I try to not disagree directly with the advice of others. I just state my perspective, what I believe is helpful to the LBS, and if that differs from another poster's perspective and advice then so be it.

Last edited by SteveLW; 05/10/21 02:55 PM.

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That was a joke both ways. It felt like that was a joke both ways. Which is why I rolled with it. And which is why I've been rolling with it.

This however, less funny. LH you gotta understand there's a decent sized generational gap between you and I. Not to mention being born female and Latina, I have a very, very different perspective on the world. An off the cuff anecdotal remark is a little different than that quote. That quote extrapolated and re-written by Mako, not much to discuss. The CCW quote as is, is at the very least an abundantly loaded statement. I'm not looking for an apology here. Or for anybody to back pedal. I'd just really like to see some understanding as to why it's off putting and to see less of this kind of thing posted around here.

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Originally Posted by SteveLW
My only ask is: Please do not assume that because one recognizes differences between the sexes, that they are "belittling and reductionist". I have often recognized one of the irrefutable differences in the sexes, the ability of women to give birth to a new human-being, as one of the indicators that women are stronger than men!

But do I think men and women approach things like relationships, marriage and sex in very different ways? I absolutely do. And I think we'd be doing LBSs of both sexes a complete disservice to pretend that they do not. But the mere recognition of differences in the sexes in no way inherently elevates one gender over the other. I am not saying that there are not those that do that, but framing everyone that recognizes differences between men and women as "belittling and/or reductionist", is in and of itself reductionist. (WF, I am not saying that is what you were trying to suggest, but some could read your response above as saying just that.) I'd also point out that MWD herself recognizes the differences between men and women in her own writings and words.



Easy enough ask to comply with. I do genuinely understand given social conditioning there are differences in roles in heteronormative relationships. Also that some folks adhere to more traditional roles in their relationships. As well as just different world view.

My only ask here has been and will continue to be is that posts provide help and have value on the face vs information that in a round about way may possibly be helpful but at the detriment of an entire sex or all relationships that don't abide 100% by traditional gender roles. If you have to deconstruct the information to remove the boot on the neck of someone and then find the value in it what's the point.

Last edited by wayfarer; 05/10/21 04:17 PM.
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Originally Posted by wayfarer
An off the cuff anecdotal remark is a little different than that quote.

That's YOUR opinion. Not everyone's. Again I though it was hilarious that you said everything a straight man does and says is self serving. Some people may find that highly offensive.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
I'd just really like to see some understanding as to why it's off putting and to see less of this kind of thing posted around here.

Again, I have agreed to not post CW quotes anymore. Do I need permission from you what to post in the future?

It goes both ways Wayfarer.


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is this not what we English call a storm in a tea cup?

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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2918707#Post2918707

Originally Posted by wayfarer
I don't like when my H acts like a child, not "feminine", like a child petulant or otherwise. I'm not his mother. Children have problems with emotional regulation, because they are children. Children have problem with boundaries because they are children. Children have problems anticipating or fully understanding the needs of others because their not yet fully formed brains make them self focused as their little bodies and minds are functioning on a much lower level of Maslow's Hierarchy of needs. Children have difficulty putting the needs of other's first for the same reason. Adults who behave like children well into their 30s, 40s and 50s are a turn off. Men and women alike, and I've met both. H and I, like every other human person on the planet, brings both masculine and feminine energy and traits into our relationship. I however due to years and years of therapy and being forced, either by chance or circumstance, am more emotionally and intellectually mature. Our situation has forced him a long here, and hopefully in the years to come he can further address his arrested development in a professional setting so we can continue to grow together.


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Originally Posted by wayfarer

Also to clarify and simply because I was asked by R2C, I don't like when my H acts like a child, not "feminine", like a child petulant or otherwise. I'm not his mother. Children have problems with emotional regulation, because they are children. Children have problem with boundaries because they are children. Children have problems anticipating or fully understanding the needs of others because their not yet fully formed brains make them self focused as their little bodies and minds are functioning on a much lower level of Maslow's Hierarchy of needs. Children have difficulty putting the needs of other's first for the same reason. Adults who behave like children well into their 30s, 40s and 50s are a turn off for literally every one. Men and women alike, and I've met both. H and I, like every other human person on the planet, brings both masculine and feminine energy and traits into our relationship. I however due to years and years of therapy and being forced, either by chance or circumstance, am more emotionally and intellectually mature. Our situation has forced him a longdevelopment here, and hopefully in the years to come he can further address his arrested development in a professional setting so we can continue to grow together.

Try looking up Erik Eriksons stages of child development for what should happen in life.
When it doesn't happen you set the stage for a MLC/WAS situation later in life.

You can't run away from growing up but people try to.

Its not our job to try to FIX them he may get help and then again he may not.

All we can do is let go and watch what happens.
Of course a good use of our time during that period is to work on ourselves because that is something we can control.


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Originally Posted by Cadet
Try looking up Erik Eriksons stages of child development for what should happen in life.
When it doesn't happen you set the stage for a MLC/WAS situation later in life.

You can't run away from growing up but people try to.

Its not our job to try to FIX them he may get help and then again he may not.

All we can do is let go and watch what happens.
Of course a good use of our time during that period is to work on ourselves because that is something we can control.


I will definitely glance at that. H has come a long way now that we're on the other side of our sitch. If nothing else I can say working on myself and being very clear that I'd be fine with or without him had an impact on his desire to "catch up" in the emotional maturity realm.

R2C also asked what traits I do appreciate about H and I didn't take the time to address it earlier.

I appreciate how hard he works, period. He works hard to make money for our family. He works hard to maintain his training for his long distance running and biking. He works hard (now) to make sure I know he is remorseful and that I'm secure, loved and appreciated. He works hard to be a good dad to our girls even through his ex being exceptionally difficult and my daughter not being his. I've seen a lot of guys mentally check out or bow out completely over less. I appreciate when he makes decisions and plans without waiting on me to do it. Not because having to make decisions is hard for me as a woman therefore making me resentful, but because I'm a naturally decisive person. I know what I want and don't want all the time. When I'm confused or unsure I research so I can be intentional in my decisiveness. It's honestly a nice break for me to just go with the flow and not have 3 people in my home and however many at work waiting and relying on me for direction. I also appreciate how far he's come in understanding that his emotions are his emotions and mine are mine. The same goes for our girls. For example if I'm in a bad mood and I specifically say it isn't about him he let's it go. He now understands that I have never been nor ever will be the type of woman who doesn't tell the person they have a problem with that they have a problem with them. He now truly listens when I try to explain at certain times why he really shouldn't interject or escalate with our teenage girls and that he's just gotta let things go sometimes for a plethora of reasons (anyone with teenage girls I'm sure understands that). I love his sense of humor. I love that he let's me be me, that he's never once tried to change me or control me. He's done some pretty awful stuff but he's never done that. My first H did that constantly and would set me up for failure because he was always moving the goal post on me. I could never be what that guy wanted because he had no idea what it was that he really wanted, and what ever it was it wasn't me. I appreciate that my H is supportive and doesn't let his ego get in the way of my accomplishments. I appreciate that he encourages and loves that I have my own friends and my own life. I appreciate that he truly understands that his individual life is something he can only take back in baby steps so I stay comfortable given our circumstances, and does so without question or resentment. I appreciate that I come home to my best friend, and he's just as excited to see me everyday when we both get home. I appreciate that I'm appreciated for who I am, for what I do for us, even the flaws and fumbles.

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I've been exploring the resources here at divorcebusting.com and I want to give a plug to MWD's books. We all know about Divorce Busting and The Divorce Remedy, but MWD has written other books as well.

One for the ladies explicitly, that doesn't get enough attention if you ask me (and you didn't!) is Getting Through to the Man You Love.

Can be found here: MWD's Books

Last edited by SteveLW; 05/12/21 01:52 PM.

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