Wolfman moving forward

[Wolfman]

https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...at&Number=2917532&gonew=1#UNREAD

Here is my old thread.

[Wolfman]

Dawn. It’s fine it did not offend me. Maybe because I haven’t given all that information before it rubbed me the wrong way. There has just been so much that has happened that I did not post about. So, I have been hearing this more and more and it really scares me. That I have to learn to let go of my children. That is just so hard for me to grasp. I spoke to a school psychologist and she basically told me the same thing. The more I try to win my children over the more she poisons them. A lot of you said it here. Love them from a distance. That is a concept I just don’t get. But it looks like I have to. I hope everyone is right, that someday my kids will realize that I love them dearly and I am always here for them. If they never realize I have no choice but to deal with it. This whole new life situation [censored]!!! Honestly I feel like I am just struggling in life. I understand a lot of my choices put me here, the divorce really messed me up, I was lost confused, depressed, and just not thinking clearly. Sorry for the rant, I am just hurt and this is a place I feel comfortable sharing those feelings. I don’t share my feelings with anyone anymore because unfortunately they have been used against me by people I trusted. Thank you everyone for your patience and help. This board is amazing.
To all you mother’s out there, sorry for it being late but
Happy Mother’s Day!!!!

[LH19]

Wolf,

This is crazy and I am really trying to give you the benefit of the doubt but are you seriously thinking about giving up on your kids? Have you tried a sit down with your ex to talk about how this is hurting your children?

[DejaVu6]

So sorry you are going through this Wolf. It won’t go on forever. Just focus on the things you can control. When something happens, step back and breathe. Understand that you can’t control what happens but you can choose your response to it. Always come from a place of love and not ego and you will be okay. Do not focus on the unfairness of the situation as that will only make you resentful and that is just poison for the soul.

Do you keep a journal? If you don’t, I recommend that you do. It will help you to process your feelings and reinforce your intention to make this as easy on your kids as possible. It is also something you could share with your children when they are adults - especially if they are wondering why they didn’t see you that much during this period of their lives. You could even write it in the form of letters addressed to them...that will hopefully prevent you from writing about what a jerk their mom is and more about you and your intention to go through this with a positive focus and view towards learning the lessons life is teaching you. There is always something to learn, even in the most negative of situations. Moving away from an ego-centered way of being to a heart-centered way of being. If you can make that shift Wolf, you will be so much better off. (((HUGS)))

[Wolfman]

Wolf,

This is crazy and I am really trying to give you the benefit of the doubt but are you seriously thinking about giving up on your kids? Have you tried a sit down with your ex to talk about how this is hurting your children?

I don’t want to give up on them. But the more I try the more push back I get. I am not saying I don’t want them in my life, I absolutely do!!! The school psychologist said give them space and when they are ready they will come to me. I have been trying so hard to be in my daughters life, especially, but she only rejects me harder and harder. I was sending her loving texts about seeing her and that’s what’s the ex used against me as harassing. When all I was saying was I missed her and lived her and hope she had a good day. I can’t talk to my ex because the order of protection. And I have tried but she simply does not take any blame for this, it’s all my fault.

Dejavu, that is probably a great idea. I don’t want my kids to ever look back when they get older and think I don’t care or love them, that is the furthest from the truth. I am broken!!! Sorry everyone, losing my ex was one thing. Losing my kids is really killing me.

[Traveler]

Hi Wolf,

I don’t want to give up on them. But the more I try the more push back I get.

The more you try to push your girlfriend on them?

asked him If he was happy coming to my home. He said most of the time. I said ok can you tell my why sometimes you don’t like to come. He said because my gf is mean to him and she yells at him a lot and she thinks she is my mom. I said I understand why that would make you feel that way. Can you give me examples when she yelled at you? He gave me an example where a year ago we were going out and his hair was a mess. I asked him numerous times to do his hair and he kept refusing. I was being so calm and patient, but no joke after 30 minutes of being patient I raised my voice, because now we were going to be late to where we were going. So my gf raised her voice too, (I am telling you all honestly here it really wasn’t a big deal) and said s we are late we have to go. She even offered to help him with his hair multiple times before we both got loud. By the way we winded up being 45 minutes late to where we needed to go because of him taking so loNg to do his hair. I asked him what was the other time. He said there was no other time, that was it. I said you sure? I just want to be able to fix these problems. He said that was it. I also told him, she is not your mom, you only have one mom, gf loves you and she loves to be with you and she was just trying to help you that day with your hair.

They have a “problem” with my gf but not with her bf. Look I can promise you my gf has done so much wonderful things with my kids. So why the problem on my side but not hers?

Consider the dialogue above. Imagine your first and foremost priority was your S. Would you have engaged it the same way? I easily see your point that if your S has only one incident he's exaggerating GF's behavior. I also see your attempt to "fix" things entailed explaining away the incident, trying to persuade him GF loves him, and secretly recording him to try to prove his story is an exaggeration. You seemed more like GF's advocate. If your S is smart, would he open up to you about more incidents, or would he open up to a more receptive audience?

I get you want deeper answers--why do S and D dislike her GF more than BF given her good deeds earlier, given that the above do not seem like the most serious transgressions? So far you have 1) she yelled at him, 2) she doesn't recognize his boundaries and forced a hug and pressed him to say daddy is perfect too, 3) she's up in her room all the time. We don't know BF's story. We don't know how much the pregnancy or your earlier behavior towards the kids plays in. The bottom line is they don't want to be around GF, their CPS complaints are about your GF, and you are the one losing custody. Defend your rights in court, but consider removing GF completely from S visits. GF may be your family, but she is not their family.

[Traveler]

if you're not up to fighting your ex-wife in court, accept that and reach out to her as the one with the power.

Have you tried a sit down with your ex to talk about how this is hurting your children?

I have tried but she simply does not take any blame for this, it’s all my fault.

Did she tell you what she feels you could do to improve your relationship with your kids? Is any of it actionable? A protective order may prevent you from communicating with her directly, but probably doesn't prevent your attorney from sending such a query through her attorney. You want to win, de-escalate, or both. (:

[kml]

Never let your kids feel you gave up on them - no matter how much they push you away. Let the lawyers do their jobs. Take your son to do fun things together without GF for the time being when you have him. Maybe sometimes things D would have also enjoyed. And I'm not saying to bribe them, but D seeing S doing fun things she might have liked too may make her start to rethink things or feel some resentment about your Ex keeping her away. Communicate with her as best you can without being pushy. (My current BF went through a difficult divorce when his three girls were college/high school ages. The girls all blamed him - no, he didn't cheat on his wife, and to hear him tell it, she's an alcoholic but I really only have his side of events and I know he can also be difficult to live with. End result is, he feels hurt by them pushing him away and so he pretty much gave up on contacting them. I'm sure this only fed the negative cycle and he has had minimal contact with them even though he has a fatal disease. I can't help but think that if he had pushed through and continued to put their feelings first and kept letting them know he loved them even when they didn't respond, he would probably have a relationship with them by now.)

Also - and this is just a thought, not something to act on right now, but - do you have pets? If not - might you think about getting a puppy? S might be a LOT more excited about coming to visit if there's a puppy involved. Now, definitely DON'T get a dog if they're not your thing and it's not something you would have done anyway. And don't do it right now because a newborn AND a puppy is just too much. But I was just thinking about how my family got a puppy when I was a baby - I suspect it was a consolation prize to my older brother for having to give up some attention to his baby sister.

[Wolfman]

Just journaling. Last few days I have been so depressed. The loss of my daughter is just so hurtful. I have done so much reading and watching videos about people who specialize in this area. Everyone says how difficult it is for the “target” parent to cope with this. Every once and a while it just hits me like a ton of bricks. Wondering what my d is up to, how she is doing. I just feel like I am missing so much. When I listen to some of the top people about alienation, I feel like they have been watching my life for the past year. The 2 who have done extensive work on this are Dr. Jennifer Harman and Linda Gottlieb. I am truly trying to figure out how I can get them to help. I am going to start by writing them emails. I am so worried that my s will be next.
Tuesday was my s birthday. I called him at night like I do every night. Except this time he didn’t pick up or call back. Yes there are times he hasn’t picked up but he usually calls me back. This time nothing!!! Really on his birthday you keep me from speaking with him. To be completely honest I did have him a few hours earlier in the day but I call him every night to say goodnight to him and I especially wanted to say happy birthday to him again. If she takes him away from me I don’t know what I will do. I will be completely devastated. This is a rhetorical question. But how could some you are with for 19 years, treat you like a queen, beg you not to d me be so cold and out to hurt me so bad by turning the kids against me?
Another mom text me 2 days ago. My s got invited to practice with the best instrument players. He is a percussionist, after school is his mom went to pick him up. When she went say hi to Brayden (her son was picked and is good friends with my s but still talks to me too) she grabbed my s quickly, she explains it looked liked she jumped on him so he wouldn’t see her and hurried him into the car and took off. This is what the mom text me. And asked what is her problem? I said because you talk to me. I said I am so sorry for that. I had to laugh. The next day that mom text me that she was so mad at that she wanted to say something to her on Facebook but my ex blocked her. Oh the drama. I think it would have been a little childish for this mom to do that, but the funny part is my ex is just pi$$ing so many people off. The sad part, these parents have children who are friends with my children that she prevents them from seeing. My poor kids.

[Ready2Change]

How you doing Wolf?

[Traveler]

Hey Wolfman, yeah, been a couple of weeks! I hope you are holding up okay and finding ways to improve your visits with your son as he's still willing to visit. Looking forward to your next update.

[Wolfman]

How you doing Wolf?

Thank you so much for checking in with me!!!

Hey Wolfman, yeah, been a couple of weeks! I hope you are holding up okay and finding ways to improve your visits with your son as he's still willing to visit. Looking forward to your next update.

Thank you too for checking in with me!!

So last week my son was born. He was 8lbs 5oz. Truly a beautiful baby boy. I am so blessed with him. I can’t tell you the joy I feel seeing and holding him. My gf was in labor for 22 hours (that’s with her being induced) only to have a c section. She handled it like a trooper. I am so proud of her. While she was in labor and dire pain, she would ask me how I was doing. I said are you kidding me you and the baby are the focus. I tried to joke with her, that I had the easy part. Lol
I had my s this past weekend and was a little nervous how he would do. When I picked him up I told him he was a big brother and we needed to celebrate him being a big brother. So I asked him if he wanted a special drink, from DD or 7-11 and a special snack. That made him excited. He wanted a slurpee and sunflower seeds. So I picked it up for him. When he got to my house the baby was sleeping and he did t seem to interested in seeing him. But I expected that, it must be weird for him. But little by little he warmed up to him and when I was holding the baby he came over to see him. He would talk to him and rub his arm. It made me so happy. The baby would just stare at him and I would say you are a big brother and he loves you, look how he is staring at you! Then as the day went on he wanted to see the baby more and would ask for him. The next day I asked my s if he would help me build one of those electric rocking swing. He said sure, it was awesome because he took over and wanted to build the whole thing. I was so proud of him. He was so happy to see his brother in it then. Very happy daddy!!!
I am noticing with gf that her hormones are messing with her a little. It’s to be expected. She is just very emotional just telling me how much she loves me, how happy she is, then just cries at how happy she is. Overall it’s been great.
Still the one thing that really bothers me is exchanging my s at the police station. So unnecessary for him to go through that. I wish I could just keep him with us. He seems very happy at my home!! That where I am at right now.

[kml]

Awww, congratulations! And I'm glad your older son is taking to being a big brother.

Buckle up though - I anticipate this is gonna send your ex into overdrive. Don't let her push your buttons.

[Traveler]

Congratulations, Wolfman.

Buckle up though - I anticipate this is gonna send your ex into overdrive. Don't let her push your buttons.

I had that same thought. XW doesn't like S spending time with GF. XW is likely to react to this.

the one thing that really bothers me is exchanging my s at the police station. So unnecessary for him to go through that.

I'm puzzling over this. I have no negative feelings about police stations, so this wouldn't be any more a big deal to me than doing exchanges at McDonalds. I'd ensure the same officer is doing the exchange, help my son get to know them, maybe get a tour of the station. If it's an "ordeal" (definition: a painful or horrific experience), why does going to a police station feel that way to him? Is it your own feelings about going to the police station that are rubbing off on him?

[Dawn70]

Piggybacking of what CW asked, does your S have an issue with exchanging at the police station or does it just bother you? I think, as CW pointed out, it is actually a good opportunity for your son to get to know the police and see what they do and how they help people. I get that it bothers you but you should try to act as if it is really not a big deal and if you can have that vibe then son will be more at ease.

As for your XW's reaction (or possible over-reaction) to your new child, it will be what it will be and you can only control how YOU handle things and interact with people. You can't control what she's going to do or say. I'm still unclear, though, on why you are even talking to her about anything other than the bare minimum necessities required to co-parent your two shared children. Mind you, what I'm about to say is NOT from my own experience because my XH and I didn't share any children so I have not had the ordeal you do, but I've seen many on here talk about only interacting through email or text or some sort of calendar app so there is written proof of exactly what is said and there is no interpretation or anything. Just simple, basic, perfunctory communication: "I will meet you at police station at 6:00 on June 1 to get S. D is welcome if she would like to come." If she tries to respond with some diatribe beyond that, do NOT engage. It takes 2 to tango.

[Ready2Change]

So last week my son was born. He was 8lbs 5oz. Truly a beautiful baby boy.

Glad to hear!

[Wolfman]

The whole police station exchange bothers me. First off it’s 20 minutes away I have to go to. So it’s lost time I have with my s. If I were to bring him to his moms it’s 7 minutes away and there are some days she would pick him up at my house. I just feel bad for him. Especially having to bring him inside, this is all unnecessary stuff for him. I act fine going in with him. I say hello to the officers that are there and we just sit and wait. Also, because she is crazy, if we wind up being on the road at the same time, she tells people I am following her. Wait tells her lawyer who brought it up in court that I follow her. It’s just disgusting.
On a happy note, it’s nice to see my s is taking to the baby. He wants to see him and “play” with him. That makes me feel good.
On a sad note. I really struggle some days not being able to see or talk to my d. Her birthday is in 10 days she is graduating middle school, dance recital coming up and I am going to miss it all. I NEVER MISSED ANY OF MY KIDS ACTIVITIES, now I have to because of the order of protection. It disgusts me that my ex doesn’t want me to be in my d life. Some days I just want to cry, I miss her so much. I was always so involved with my kids, this just hurts so much.

[Ready2Change]

Wolf,

We get it. Everything about everyone's sitch here bothers us. We can all wish that things were different.

With that said, the way we respond to different events in our lives is what is important. Challenge your current beliefs. Maybe your son will become a police officer based of this experience. Who knows. Embrace the exchange at the police station. Let the lights shine on crazy X wife.

Have you done any research into "Amor fati"? If not, I suggest starting at wiki and then some time on youtube. There are other similar concepts that are similar.

[kml]

Embrace the exchange at the police station. Let the lights shine on crazy X wife.

I agree with this. Eventually she's gonna prove to the police how ridiculously crazy she is, and that can only help you. Continue to be the calm, stable parent at the exchanges.

[DejaVu6]

Congratulations on your new little cub Wolfman!!! I’m with the others on here...try to turn it into a positive experience. Your son will take his cues from you.

Sorry to hear about your missed events with your D. I agree with you. It is disgusting and extremely narcissistic of your XW to go to these lengths to keep you out of your D’s life. Hopefully things will turn around sooner rather than later. In the meantime, focus on making great memories with your other two.

(((HUGS)))

[Traveler]

On a sad note. I really struggle some days not being able to see or talk to my d. Her birthday is in 10 days she is graduating middle school, dance recital coming up and I am going to miss it all. I NEVER MISSED ANY OF MY KIDS ACTIVITIES, now I have to because of the order of protection.

You indicated the long protection order was due to the judge and your XW believing you violated a shorter protection order--your attorney planned to pull transcripts to prove you remembered correctly and they did not. Any luck? It sounds terrible to not be able to communicate with her until a month after her birthday.

[Traveler]

I just read most protection orders prohibit both direct or indirect contact--e.g., a "Happy Birthday" card would be considered a criminal offense. If the order stays in place, as hard as it must be, I'd follow its terms so you don't face charges and/or yet another extension of the period where you can't access your D.

[Ready2Change]

I just read most protection orders prohibit both direct or indirect contact--e.g., a "Happy Birthday" card would be considered a criminal offense. If the order stays in place, as hard as it must be, I'd follow its terms so you don't face charges and/or yet another extension of the period where you can't access your D.

Get transcripts, read them carefully and follow all court orders. A guy I know sat in jail for 30 days because he did not realize the court ordered a parenting evaluator. His argument was he did not have the funds to hire the evaluation. Clarification with your legal team is also a great idea.

[bttrfly]

congrats on the new bambino. enjoy this special time with your family and try not to let exw intrude with her various machinations.

[Ready2Change]

The whole police station exchange bothers me.

"Something needed to change - and fast. But it wasn't the world, government, or women that needed to change. It was me. I needed to wake up and update my belief system because what I was doing, clearly, wasn't working." - Richard Cooper

[Wolfman]

On a sad note. I really struggle some days not being able to see or talk to my d. Her birthday is in 10 days she is graduating middle school, dance recital coming up and I am going to miss it all. I NEVER MISSED ANY OF MY KIDS ACTIVITIES, now I have to because of the order of protection.

You indicated the long protection order was due to the judge and your XW believing you violated a shorter protection order--your attorney planned to pull transcripts to prove you remembered correctly and they did not. Any luck? It sounds terrible to not be able to communicate with her until a month after her birthday.

I emailed my lawyer yesterday. It’s been over a month, I hope I can get the transcripts soon. I breaks my heart every day, that I can’t speak with her. I try to not think about it but every once and a while it creeps up on me. With the order, I can’t send her a card or even a text hi. No contact. It really hurts me. I miss her so much.

congrats on the new bambino. enjoy this special time with your family and try not to let exw intrude with her various machinations.

Thank you. I focus on my new family when I am with them. The deserve my undivided attention. My ex is just a evil, evil person. I hope karma really bites her hard.

Everything with gf and baby are great. So far so good. My s is graduating elementary school soon and only 2 parents can go. I emailed my lawyer about this. Since my ex has an order of protection against me I hope that doesn’t inhibit me from going. I told him he needs to speak with her lawyer that I can go. I will be really angry if I can’t and she takes the bf instead. I’ll let you all know what my lawyer says.

[Wolfman]

Good morning everyone. I guess I am just looking for a little advice. Today is my daughters birthday and I am having a real hard time. Since my ex got that order of protection I can’t see or even text my d. This is the first time I am going to miss her birthday. On top of it this Sunday she has her dance recital, I can’t see that either. I am just hurting so bad. I NEVER MISSED ANYTHING for my kids. How many times I left work to make sure I was there for my kids. There were times I was there and my ex wasn’t when we were married. I am not saying she is a bad person at the time, she was working. I sacrificed so much for my family and to have this lunatic take this away from me is so hurtful!!! I am trying to get through the day but it will be hard. I miss her so much!!! I am just so disgusted with the judicial system. That they give these orders of protection out like candy. That she didn’t have to give any evidence just make up lies, and why because she can and knows this is the only way to hurt me, through my children. I am just so depressed. Sorry everyone.

[LH19]

I am sorry you are hurting wolf.

So I am curious there is an order of protection against your daughter and not your son? The courts believe you are a danger to daughter but not son? That seems odd to me?

Have you thought about suing for defamation of character?

[Wolfman]

I am sorry you are hurting wolf.

So I am curious there is an order of protection against your daughter and not your son? The courts believe you are a danger to daughter but not son? That seems odd to me?

Have you thought about suing for defamation of character?

It is so odd and ridiculous how I could be a danger to those 2 but not my son. I spoke with the police at length when she tried to have me arrested for exchanging my son with her. I think I told that story on here already. I asked about suing, you can’t unless it affected me financially, like losing a job or not getting a job because of it. The whole order of protection today is a joke. Even the 3 cops I spoke with told me judges give them out for anything. I could literally go to the court house now, say my gf smacked me and I am afraid, with no proof just my story and get her kicked out of my home. The. She would have to prove her innocence. But in the meantime she would be on the street. Today many people in these situations are doing that exact thing. Getting people kicked out of their homes because they run to court make up a story, get the order and now a person is out of their home, or in My case can’t even text my daughter.

She is never going to stop. Once this gets settled I am sure it will be something else. Since the day I told her I had a gf, it’s been non stop with her!!!

[Traveler]

Hi Wolfman,

Wow--our kids have birthdays on the same day!

1. You're being denied contacting her today, not celebrating her birthday. Can you celebrate without seeing her? Can you buy and wrap a card and gift, so when the order is lifted, you can then give it to her?

2. You are being denied contacting her today, not viewing the event. Can you ask another parent or the school to record her? Do check the terms of your protection order, but I'd be surprised if that were a violation.

3. I'd be tempted to try to resolve the communication issue between you and your attorney. "You said the judge remembered the terms wrong when he said I violated the protection order. You said you'd pull the transcript to prove it and I'd get my D back. That hasn't happened and it took you over a month to pull the transcript. What's going on?"

[Wolfman]

Hi Wolfman,

Wow--our kids have birthdays on the same day!

1. You're being denied contacting her today, not celebrating her birthday. Can you celebrate without seeing her? Can you buy and wrap a card and gift, so when the order is lifted, you can then give it to her?

2. You are being denied contacting her today, not viewing the event. Can you ask another parent or the school to record her? Do check the terms of your protection order, but I'd be surprised if that were a violation.

3. I'd be tempted to try to resolve the communication issue between you and your attorney. "You said the judge remembered the terms wrong when he said I violated the protection order. You said you'd pull the transcript to prove it and I'd get my D back. That hasn't happened and it took you over a month to pull the transcript. What's going on?"

Happy birthday to your kids.
On Tuesday my lawyer said the transcripts are ready. They just had to pay $112 for them and then they should get them. I am going to email my lawyer on Monday and see if they have them now. I can’t believe it’s taking this long to get them either. I just want to put this behind me.

A lot of you have been with me from the beginning. It’s just amazing that we went through our divorce with just a mediator, we decided on everything. Then I get a gf and things are just out of control. The divorce itself should have been the hard part. Not the other way around. Did any of you here experience something similar? “Smooth” divorce but after was rough.

Trust me everyone, when I get those transcripts I will be on here to report.

[kml]

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. How dare you not sit around waiting to be her Plan B, even after the divorce?

[Ready2Change]

I am just looking for a little advice. Today is my daughters birthday...my ex got that order of protection I can’t see or even text my d.

Go buy her a card and a gift. Write in the card about WHY you love her. Wrap up the gift. DO NOT GIVE THEM TO HER NOW. Wait until the order is over.

[DejaVu6]

What KML said….pure and simple jealousy. Worst feeling in the world and can drive some people absolutely crazy. Hopefully the crazy will fade over time. (((HUGS)))

[Traveler]

Happy birthday to your kids.

Thanks, Wolfman. My XW actually gave me extra time with them--I'm blessed she and I get along. I hope you are able to find a way to see D's recital Sunday, even if it's through the school or someone else's camera.

[unchien]

Did any of you here experience something similar? “Smooth” divorce but after was rough.

Not me but a friend.

He and his XW didn't even use a mediator, they worked out a settlement by themselves. Fast forward 4 years later when support runs out, and she surprise files for 100% custody of their 3 boys. He went through a trial and everything, ended up winning. Of course, his XW probably had some "other" reason for filing and likely justified to herself that it was more than just money.

Every human uses emotional reasoning more than rational logic. Even more so with people in a D, and in that subgroup, even more so (typically) the WAS. There's a massive well of resentment and anger to draw from to justify their actions.

I hope things calm down and you can spend time with your D again. Weaponizing the kids is the lowest of the low, unfortunately all too common.

[Wolfman]

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. How dare you not sit around waiting to be her Plan B, even after the divorce?

Something I will never understand. She wanted this, against DB principles I begged her not to do it. Then I move on with someone and she goes after me. Like I said never understand.

I am just looking for a little advice. Today is my daughters birthday...my ex got that order of protection I can’t see or even text my d.

Go buy her a card and a gift. Write in the card about WHY you love her. Wrap up the gift. DO NOT GIVE THEM TO HER NOW. Wait until the order is over.

It’s a great idea, I have no idea what she likes anymore or what she is into. So sad that I feel so disconnected from my daughter. Honestly nothing depresses me more when I see a teenage girl with their father. I just feel so cheated!!

What KML said….pure and simple jealousy. Worst feeling in the world and can drive some people absolutely crazy. Hopefully the crazy will fade over time. (((HUGS)))

Jealous of what? This is what she wanted. Her bf moved in with her and my kids. She became the biggest hypocrite in the world. Whatever though, just funny how now she can do or allow certain things.

Happy birthday to your kids.

Thanks, Wolfman. My XW actually gave me extra time with them--I'm blessed she and I get along. I hope you are able to find a way to see D's recital Sunday, even if it's through the school or someone else's camera.

Unfortunately, I didn’t get to see her dance. This is the first time I didn’t get to see her dance since she was 5. Very sad for me!! I miss her so much!!

Did any of you here experience something similar? “Smooth” divorce but after was rough.

Weaponizing the kids is the lowest of the low, unfortunately all too common.

This right here^^^^. She is using the kids to hurt me since there is no other way to do it. I was looking to hire one of the top therapists that deal with parent alienation but I don’t have the money that she requires to hire her. I guess only rich parents get alienated on. Not us average working folks. I know if I was able to afford her, I would win the case and get custody of my children and get them away from this devil!!! I actually reached out to other top psychologist in the country that deals with parent alienation but didn’t get and email back. And now Father’s Day is coming up and won’t see my daughter again. This is just so wrong!!!

[Traveler]

I was looking to hire one of the top therapists that deal with parent alienation but I don’t have the money that she requires to hire her. I guess only rich parents get alienated on. Not us average working folks. I know if I was able to afford her, I would win the case and get custody of my children and get them away from this devil!!! I actually reached out to other top psychologist in the country that deals with parent alienation but didn’t get and email back.

As a data point, my parents once spent 4x as much as their opponent in a year-long court case and got a 15% advantage. Money does matter. But, if you can't afford the top psychologists as your advocates, most likely your XW can't either. For a good case, experts of comparable quality should be sufficient?

I Googled local attorneys who pick up parent alienation cases. It says your primary job is to prove the other parent is making disparaging statements about you to your kids. Possible sources of documentation: (a) child testimony, (b) relative testimony, (c) captures of text, audio, or video showing disparaging remarks.

In short, don't give up just because you can't afford top experts, and keep documenting!

[Wolfman]

CW the problem is she doesn’t have money, her parents. When she bought me out her DAD wrote a check to me for $100,000. She did t refinance to buy me out her dad did it. Her dad also paid for her lawyer. So for her this is easy, mommy and daddy will keep forking over the money. Some of you may say, her parents will stop after a while, nope!! Her brother lives at home, he is 38, no job, no friends. Parents bought him a car and he travels the world on their money. So, it’s tough for me. It’s just me.
As far as documentation of alienation. I have some documentation. I have texts between my ex and d. How my ex tells her to hide things from me, to lie to me, has my d report is going on in our life, the tracking device she put on her phone and I screen shot it that it’s only turned on when she was with us. And she still doesn’t stop. Today I got an email from her and it says this:
I will pick s up at school tomorrow in order for him to not have to go to the precinct twice.
She doesn’t even ask. Our divorce states I pick up my s everyday from school. For her to just tell me. The reason the 2 pick ups at the precinct because I get my s this weekend and she put for her to have him from 3:45-5 just she could see him a little before I have him for the weekend. But she is the one who wanted police station exchanges. I suggested instead of that, I pick him up from school and just keep him for the weekend. By the time she picks him up from the police station and gets home she is there for 20 minutes to just drive him back. I think it is fair for me to say just let me have him. I am just so tired of this nonsense. She makes things bad and then tries to change them to benefit her. Oh and she always tried to use the kids as a reason to justify what she is doing, but it’s bs, it’s only for her.

[Ready2Change]

I think it is fair for me to say just let me have him.

Do not agree, argue or debate anything.

Wolf: "I believe it is best to stick with the court order agreements. I will pick him up from school and have him at PS at the agreed time, wolf."

If she picks him up or shows up or whatever, she is in contempt. Document everything.

Good luck

[Wolfman]

I think it is fair for me to say just let me have him.

Do not agree, argue or debate anything.

Wolf: "I believe it is best to stick with the court order agreements. I will pick him up from school and have him at PS at the agreed time, wolf."

If she picks him up or shows up or whatever, she is in contempt. Document everything.

Good luck

That’s exactly what I was going to do and say. No argue, no debate, just sticking to the divorce stipulation and ask for my son to just stay with me instead of the 2 visits to the police station. And yes, if she does show up I will file a police report for the contempt. I hate to be like this but unfortunately I have no choice.

[Ready2Change]

Wolf, this is from my personal notes:

Communication
Figure out what kind of person I am currently dealing with. Respond to each type completely different:
1) Wise people listen, so talking to them works.
2) When dealing with foolish people, stop talking and set limits and consequences.
3) If the person is behaving evil, let lawyers and law enforcement deal with them.

Remember, 55% of the message is conveyed visually through body language and facial expressions, 38% is expressed vocally by my tempo, tone and inflections and only 7% verbally through my words. Before speaking, assure all 3V’s are congruent to avoid confusing the listener.


My words carry great weight, use them wisely. Be impeccable with my word. I choose my words which I speak to others. With clear communication, people will give me all of the information I need and I won’t have to make assumptions. Ping-Pong conversations; don’t hold the ball too long.

One of the secrets to a good relationship is learning to distinguish between the important issues to express my feelings about and the petty ones to let slide by. Commit to being honest and clear with lots of compassion (kind but true). My sense of concern for the person must be integrated with the truth of what I need to say. Be in approach motivation most of the time. Tell how I feel and why. Respond when I am ready. Stick to self control statements. Stick to my desires. Reiterate what I will do or not do and let them be angry.

[Traveler]

I think it is fair for me to say just let me have him.

Do not agree, argue or debate anything.

Wolf: "I believe it is best to stick with the court order agreements. I will pick him up from school and have him at PS at the agreed time, wolf."

If she picks him up or shows up or whatever, she is in contempt. Document everything.

Good luck

This is exactly what I was going to reply. Given their adversarial relationship, I was confused by the attempt to debate. If one simply and consistently reaffirms the agreement it’s also easier to prove violations.

[Traveler]

Hi Wolf,

. I suggested instead of that, I pick him up from school and just keep him for the weekend. By the time she picks him up from the police station and gets home she is there for 20 minutes to just drive him back. I think it is fair for me to say just let me have him.

Your wording is what gave me concern. “Suggested” and “It is fair” aren’t words that have any business in the enforcement of a custody agreement. Enforcement doesn’t involve negotiation.

[Traveler]

Please note, if you agreed to 3:45-5:00, you agreed to 3:45-5:00 even if it no longer seems fair or makes sense given she only gets 20min with him after the police precinct tax. Abiding by all agreed terms is wise.

[Wolfman]

This is my response, what do you all think?
I do not agree and will not adhere to your proposal. I will pick up S at 3:00pm from school tomorrow as per divorce decree. To avoid S going to the precinct twice, I can pick him up from school and keep him from then on for my weekend visitation. Let me know if you are in agreement to my proposal.
How is that?

[Traveler]

Hi Wolf,

I’d stick to, “No, I will pick up S at 3:00pm from school tomorrow as per divorce decree.”

To avoid S going to the precinct twice, I can pick him up from school and keep him from then on for my weekend visitation. Let me know if you are in agreement to my proposal.

I’d just state and do whatever your agreement says. If it requires to precinct visits, make two precinct visits. You two are not on good enough teens to negotiate. I’m surprised there are no orders prohibiting you two from talking directly.

[Ready2Change]

+1 for Cwarrior.

Use the least amount of words to get your message across.

[Dawn70]

CW said EXACTLY what I was going to say. You are not in a place to negotiate. Stick STRICTLY to divorce agreement terms and document any fluctuations from that agreement. You say what you think would be fair for you to ask for (just keeping your son since she'd only actually have about 20 minutes with him), but that is YOUR perspective. She's clearly not going to see that as being fair to her at all. I'm not saying it is or isn't, my point is, divorce agreements are signed by both parties and legally binding so, at least for now, you need to be toeing that line and follow the agreement to the letter. Let her be the one to slip up or overstep and eventually she'll get caught. I think it is Andrew who talks about keeping his own side of the street "clean". Do that!

[Traveler]

Wolf, wishing you a Happy Father’s Day! I hope you navigated the weekend pickup well enough to get to spend the whole day tomorrow with your son doing something you both enjoy. You have a baby, too! There is a lot to be thankful about amidst the chaos of what isn’t ideal. You certainly put in effort. (:

[kml]

Happy Father’s Day!

[Wolfman]

Happy belated Fathers Day to all of you.
Thank you CWarrior and kml

So something very interesting happened on Friday. My gf and I spoke with my ex’s boyfriend’s ex wife. Did you all follow that? Lol So, I know nothing about this guy who is around my kids all the time. I wanted a little insight. So he is evidently a cheater, the ex has proof that this guy cheated on her and wait my ex was dating him before they were even thinking about divorce. She probably doesn’t know she is a home wrecker. Not my problem just sharing with you all. Next he is a drinker; a heavy drinker. Here is my problem. She told me one day her kids were over my ex’s home. He was drinking and got drunk and they were going to go out. His kids did not want to get in the car with him drunk so they called their mom. And she told him he better not dare drive anywhere. He said he wasn’t drunk and that his gf ( my ex) would verify that he was fine. She said he is ok to drive. So my ex is allowing this a$$h@le to drive my kids drunk. I am not having that!! I don’t know what to do. Any advice???
Something else I would like to share. When CPS interviewed my kids at her home, it sounds like my sons complaints about us were really about them. It was all projection. Here is why I say that. This woman told me, that her kids constantly complain that their dad doesn’t spend any time with them, that he is always with my ex. It’s funny how my son said I don’t spend enough time with him without my gf, when I was on here telling all of you I was upset my gf wasn’t around us that much. He complained about being afraid of getting in the car with my gf yet she only drove him twice and this woman’s kids are talking about being afraid to get in the car with their dad. All of his complaints were about them just using us. Sickens me what she is doing!!!
Onto my gf and baby. They are great!! Everything has been wonderful. I love that little guy so much he brings so much joy. My gf and I really work well together and I am just so happy. I can’t wait for the six weeks to be up so we can start having fun again. Today my s graduates 5th grade and I am so proud of him!!! I just love him so much too!!! He comes around to see the baby, he is interested in him. That also makes me so happy!!!

[kml]

Ugh. It's so difficult in this position. Unless your ex's boyfriend has drunk driving convictions against him, I'm not sure how you go about protecting your kids. Does your son have a cell phone? If so, you could have a discussion with him about how he can always call you instead of getting in the car with BF if he seems drunk.Or maybe, just ask son whether he ever feels uncomfortable with BF driving?

The good news is, hopefully, this guy will not last long. He'll cheat on your exW too. In fact, maybe this is why your ex is so bent out of shape about you moving on - maybe she has started to realize that the grass wasn't greener with this guy.

[Traveler]

Hi Wolf,

She told me one day her kids were over my ex’s home. He was drinking and got drunk and they were going to go out. His kids did not want to get in the car with him drunk so they called their mom. And she told him he better not dare drive anywhere. He said he wasn’t drunk and that his gf ( my ex) would verify that he was fine. She said he is ok to drive. So my ex is allowing this a$$h@le to drive my kids drunk. I am not having that!! I don’t know what to do. Any advice???

Your kids being driven around by someone whose BAC is above the legal limit would be serious.

You don’t KNOW that’s happening. It sounds like that PROBABLY happened on the day in question. A woman you just met who’s upset at him alleges that one of her kids claimed this happened. She apparently wasn’t worried enough to take action to stop it such as calling a sheriff because then this would be a simple matter.

I would ask her to call the sheriff if this happens again and alert you if he’s arrested.
I would offer to share if you obtain proof of abuse that a court or CPS accepts.
I would informally arm your son with info about drunk driving.
If she alleges this happens frequently, e.g., Saturday evenings 8-10pm, and you find her very credible, you could hire a PI for those evenings which will either prove or disprove her claim.
I would avoid further venting sessions because they don’t help you detach.

How did holding your ground on the pickup before Father’s Day go? Any documented wrongdoings?

[Wolfman]

Ugh. It's so difficult in this position. Unless your ex's boyfriend has drunk driving convictions against him, I'm not sure how you go about protecting your kids. Does your son have a cell phone? If so, you could have a discussion with him about how he can always call you instead of getting in the car with BF if he seems drunk.Or maybe, just ask son whether he ever feels uncomfortable with BF driving?
.

I have friends who ho are cops and ram his info. No convictions. Just one parking ticket. But I will definitely talk to my son about it he ever feels uncomfortable about getting in the car to call me.

Hi Wolf,

She told me one day her kids were over my ex’s home. He was drinking and got drunk and they were going to go out. His kids did not want to get in the car with him drunk so they called their mom. And she told him he better not dare drive anywhere. He said he wasn’t drunk and that his gf ( my ex) would verify that he was fine. She said he is ok to drive. So my ex is allowing this a$$h@le to drive my kids drunk. I am not having that!! I don’t know what to do. Any advice???

Your kids being driven around by someone whose BAC is above the legal limit would be serious.

You don’t KNOW that’s happening. It sounds like that PROBABLY happened on the day in question. A woman you just met who’s upset at him alleges that one of her kids claimed this happened. She apparently wasn’t worried enough to take action to stop it such as calling a sheriff because then this would be a simple matter.

I would ask her to call the sheriff if this happens again and alert you if he’s arrested.
I would offer to share if you obtain proof of abuse that a court or CPS accepts.
I would informally arm your son with info about drunk driving.
If she alleges this happens frequently, e.g., Saturday evenings 8-10pm, and you find her very credible, you could hire a PI for those evenings which will either prove or disprove her claim.
I would avoid further venting sessions because they don’t help you detach.

How did holding your ground on the pickup before Father’s Day go? Any documented wrongdoings?

I agree why she didn’t call the cops or sheriff. But thinking about the PI thing. That’s a good idea. Just concerned for my children. Especially my son, he doesn’t need to see that and think when he gets older, that’s ok. Was t meant to be venting just giving some background and advice about the drinking and driving.
Father’s Day was fine. When I disagreed I just got. “I will pick him up promptly at 3:15 from the precinct.” So much for her wanting to avoid him going twice.

[kml]

I'd be worried that the PI might be considered a violation of your restraining order? Check that out first.

[Wolfman]

Question for everyone. My s 11 wants to play tackle football. I am in agreement with him playing. I wrote his mom an email if she was in agreement, that was a week ago and no response. I asked a the other day if he spoke with his mom about playing? He said he did. Her response to him was, he is in too many activities (he is signed up for flag football, which starts in august) and that it would take time away from s. She doesn’t have any activities until October. Also, my s when we were married no joke was in, drumming lessons, hip hop, baseball, karate, and gymnastics. But now more than one activity is too much???? I know why, because he would be with me more. I coach flag and want to coach tackle. If she says no, then what? I asked my lawyer and he said I could still put him in, I would just be responsible for the fee. My problem with that, on her days she may not take him. She did that when he wanted to play baseball, she wouldn’t take him, and then he stopped playing. Again I was coaching. It is so sad that she is so selfish. Do I sign him up and take a chance or unfortunately do I let him miss out if she says no? Thanks everyone.

[kml]

I can't comment on the best way to handle the ex, but please watch the movie Concussion with Will Smith before putting an 11 year old in tackle football.

[Traveler]

Hi Wolfman,

If she says no, then what?

If you weren't prepared to honor "no" as her answer, you should not ask her a "yes" or "no" question.

But now more than one activity is too much????

You parent S how you like during your time. She parents S how she likes during her time.

I know why, because he would be with me more.

Makes sense. If you two were on better terms, you might negotiate that a 3rd party coach your son.

I coach flag and want to coach tackle

My dad learned he can coach without me playing.

My problem with that, on her days she may not take him.

You parent S how you like during your time. She parents S how she likes during her time. Try not to see a lack of control over her as a "problem". On your days you may do tackle football, on her days she may have him bake cookies or read books.

She did that when he wanted to play baseball, she wouldn’t take him, and then he stopped playing.

If he enjoys playing baseball, why would a weekend off stop him? My son hikes at both houses, cycles at my XW's house, and kayaks at my house. There are "mama" and "dada" activities. There are no conflicts or problems. As coach, you have the benefit of knowing what skills you taught during any days he's not present and may be able to teach him separately.

Do I sign him up and take a chance or unfortunately do I let him miss out if she says no? Thanks everyone.

If you want him to learn and play tackle football on your days, sign him up and have fun! Try not to worry about what she's going to do during her parenting time. That's literally what "her parenting time" means. She chooses what's best for him.

[Traveler]

As for a working model of how I approach such things with my XW, "Hey! I'm signing S up for a 1-week kayaking class. Two of his friends will be there, it's socially distanced, and it gets him outside. 3 days are mine, 2 days are yours." Her response was that it sounded great and she'd take him. What if he doesn't feel like going? Over here: "You asked and I signed up for it--you're going." Over there she'd probably encourage him, but then offer a cycle or hike. That's how we roll.

[Ginger1]

Well, i know in my town, tackle football involves a certain level of commitment. It’s a team sport and he can’t be on a team where he just doesn’t go on mom’s days and goes on dads days, he will likely get kicked off the team or not let him play and stay on the sidelines

If she doesn’t agree and says she won’t take him, well, then your kid will see who is holding back and it isn’t you

[Wolfman]

I can't comment on the best way to handle the ex, but please watch the movie Concussion with Will Smith before putting an 11 year old in tackle football.

I did. I played football since I was 10 also. I played college football and semi pro football. Went to a NFL tryout. So I am very aware of the dangers. I was hesitant on him playing, but if I can coach and make sure things are done correctly the. I am fine with it.

CW, I don’t know how football is where you live, here it is a full time commitment. If he starts missing practices he won’t be able to play. So, his mom would have to bring him on her days. Or else he won’t be able to play in games. I just feel bad for my s if she refuses.

Ginger, he would see but he is so afraid of her, he won’t say anything. Just like with baseball. She didn’t want him to play so he stopped playing. She tried very hard to limit me with the kids. And I don’t like her manipulation, telling him she will lose time with my d. When it’s convenient for her, she throws the kids in the middle. Ugh so frustrating!!!

[Traveler]

Wolf, I've coached rec league soccer and especially basketball, not rec league tackle football. I guess I could see football being different as it relies on more coordinated plays.

In basketball, if a player attended practice the week before the game, they were guaranteed a minimum playing time. The coach was who indicated whether someone attended or not unless a parent complained. Most skills (dribbles, shots, passes, picks, etc.) could be practiced effectively with 1-3 people. I'd feel fine offering my kids a "makeup" practice as long as everyone got an opportunity to attend so I wasn't showing favoritism.

If a sport requires you and your XW to get along, seems you're out of luck until you repair that burned bridge. Maybe stick to the sports that don't require any cooperation until you're ready to tackle that?

[Ready2Change]

What did you decide?

[DejaVu6]

Just a thought Wolfman… it seems like your S is being lost in the war (not yours, hers) between you and your ex. He could really use a third party representing his illness. I don’t know what is available in your area but I think in the US, there are “guardian ad litem” programs? I am not extremely familiar with how they get involved or when but it seems to me it would be worth looking into. I played basketball as a youth. Missing every other practice would have got me kicked off the team and/or warming the bench. If your son really wants to commit to a sports team and his mom’s attitude/behaviour is preventing this, perhaps a third party could add some pressure to her to do the right thing. Anyway…just something that occurred to me. Hopefully things will improve over time. (((HUGS)))

[Wolfman]

Ex is at it again. My 11 year old son was begging me to play tackle football. I had some reservations about it. I played college and semi pro. I know a lot about football. When I found out I could coach my son I gave him the ok. He was super excited, he couldn’t wait to play. He was cheering in my car when I told him he could play!! I said you just have to ask your mom. I spoke to him last night and he said his mom said no. I asked why? He said because she said it’s not safe. I said I would be coaching. He said I know but mom said it’s not safe. I said that’s ok that mom said no, if you still want to play I can sign you up.
Side note, the only reason I have to get his moms permission is because of the expense. We would split it, if she says no and I decide to put him in the expense is on me. Just wanted to clear that up.
He said no I don’t want to play now. I said what do you mean? You were begging me to play, now you don’t? He said he is already doing flag. I told my son, open your eyes your mom doesn’t want you to play because it would be more time with me. Why else would it be ok the following year when he is on the school team and I can’t coach. She did the same thing with baseball. He wanted to play and convinced him he didn’t want to. I am most mad because he said he doesn’t want to play now when he was begging me for months. Now he doesn’t want to play because his mom said no. This is just so wrong!!!

[kml]

I dunno - if I were his mom I wouldn't be happy about an 11 year old playing tackle football either. You being the coach doesn't mean he can't get a concussion. Even the mild effect of head butting the ball in soccer is associated with reduced IQ points. I know you assume this is about your ex wanting to restrict your time with him, and you might be right, but it might also be that she has read about the effects on young brains of the sport. I certainly wouldn't have put him in the middle of it by telling him you could still sign him up.

[Traveler]

. I told my son, open your eyes your mom doesn’t want you to play because it would be more time with me.

Wolf, I'm surprised. You were just speaking out against parental alienation. I get you're angry she won't take your son to tackle football, and additionally told him she thinks it's unsafe. Is it appropriate to tell your son what your wife's motives are with certainty ("Open your eyes!") when even you aren't certain? I don't think so. If you're having trouble controlling your anger towards her I would consider therapy. I'm seeking therapy. You have a lot going on!

As for her motives, it may be as black and white as she wants to make you angry. I bet it's more complex. Your son attending tackle football involves safety concerns, spending money, you get a higher share of custody, your son may get exposed to more negative statements about her such as the above, and more painful handoffs.

This is all stuff two ex's who can communicate can negotiate. Until you repair your relationship with her, I wouldn't expect her to do you any favors. Make offers that are zero-cost or slightly benefit her. I do think repairing your relationship even a little would have a huge payoff that trumps any tackle football benefits.

So, his mom would have to bring him on her days. Or else he won’t be able to play in games... I said that’s ok that mom said no, if you still want to play I can sign you up.

I'm glad you figured out how you could do tackle football even if his mom doesn't bring him on her days. Like I said, as the coach, I could make 50% custody work for soccer and basketball with makeup practices.

\Side note, the only reason I have to get his moms permission is because of the expense. We would split it, if she says no and I decide to put him in the expense is on me. Just wanted to clear that up.

Yeah, I had to eat the cost of most of my kids' activities for the first few years of divorce, because if I didn't, suddenly there would be other concerns. I shifted to a donation model. "I'm signing the kids up for X. It costs $Y. Feel free to donate whatever you feel is fair." Getting 33% of the costs reimbursed still helped. (:

[Ready2Change]

Ex is at it again. .....I told my son, open your eyes your mom doesn’t want you to play because it would be more time with me.

No surprise on her choice.

How many times have you read "Divorce Poison?" I strongly suggest you read it again. There are significantly better ways to help your children deal with unhealthy parenting styles.

[Dawn70]

He said no I don’t want to play now. I said what do you mean? You were begging me to play, now you don’t? He said he is already doing flag. I told my son, open your eyes your mom doesn’t want you to play because it would be more time with me. Why else would it be ok the following year when he is on the school team and I can’t coach. She did the same thing with baseball. He wanted to play and convinced him he didn’t want to. I am most mad because he said he doesn’t want to play now when he was begging me for months. Now he doesn’t want to play because his mom said no. This is just so wrong!!!

You talk an awful lot about parental alienation coming from your XW in your direction, but do you not see that in responding to your son in the way that you did that she could claim the same thing from your direction? It has been said many, many times on this board and in other arenas that I'm sure you heard and that is do NOT put kids in the middle of adult situations. You can't control what your XW does so if she tries to put the kids in the middle, that is on her. But, in this case, you did it. You said it was ok that she said no, that you would go ahead anyway and then went on to tell him to open his eyes and she's doing it to prevent him having more time with you. That puts him right smack in the middle of all the crap.

I have to agree with some of the others. You keep insisting that he will be fine if you coach, but there are NO guarantees when it comes to tackle football. Did your XW say no to keep him from having extra time with you? Possibly. Could she also just be worried about her son's safety? Absolutely.

I can't remember who keeps saying, CW maybe, but you are going to HAVE to get some stuff straight with your XW before you worry about doing things that require the 2 of you to communicate and compromise effectively. This particular instance seems very personal to you because you played football yourself and you want to share that experience with your son and want to coach him. That's great, but as I already said, there are NO guarantees, even with you coaching that he might not be seriously injured. You can't prevent accidents.

You are going to have to learn to pick your battles and figure out if this is the hill you want to die on, so to speak.

[Traveler]

Hey Wolf, how’s it going?

[Wolfman]

I hear what a lot of you are saying about the parental alienation. I have kept my mouth shut about endless amounts of things. I am sorry but I had to say something to my son. I know I expressed it already, but he was begging me to play. And when I figured it out that he could, she then shoots it down. Look I know he was asking his mom too, (he told me he said for him to ask me). Trying to make me out to be the bad guy here. Why else would he be asking me for months? If his mom would have said no from the beginning he wouldn’t be asking me. Correct? Honestly, I try very hard to be the nice guy and bite my tongue, but I am sorry, this really aggravated me. Look I was with my ex for 19years I know exactly how she operates. She wanted me to be the bad guy, and when I wasn’t and realized I was going to coach him and spend more time with him, she took it away. Also, for the past 3 weeks that I have called him, he hasn’t answered once. I call him the same time everyday. Granted can they be busy at that time, possibly but for 3 weeks? Also, I did t get to speak to him on 4th of July, and last night. She is just getting g more blatant and trying to ruin my relationship with my son now.

I got the transcripts from the court. The judge said, he was “taking off his robe” and just speaking as adults about a situation. And said maybe wait 6 weeks till the birth of my son, I don’t know, but she needs a little time. At the end he then stated, this is something for all of you to work out and figure out how long it should be. So, my lawyers conversation with her lawyer was off the record. It was right before we walked out of court. Even so, he stated it was something that we needed to figure out and work on. I am just so tired of all of this. My lawyer states that since it was a suggestion and we were supposed to work it out, I didn’t do anything wrong. And honestly, just me speaking here for her to get an order of protection just because she can is ridiculous and ridiculous the judge granted that!!! I am sure my ex will make up more lies in court on Friday to keep me away from my daughter. I bet all of you, because if this gets dropped I am supposed to have my children for the weekend. I bet my daughter some how won’t be coming.

[Traveler]

I am sorry but I had to say something to my son. I try very hard to be the nice guy and bite my tongue, but I am sorry, this really aggravated me.

When I feel strong emotions is often precisely when I bite my tongue. Must this be expressed now--or could it be expressed in an hour, in a day, when I've cooled down and organized my thoughts? It's not about being nice. It's about achieving your goals--a strong relationship with your kids and a working relationship with your XW. Ready2Change said it well, "There are significantly better ways to help your children deal with unhealthy parenting styles."

Also, for the past 3 weeks that I have called him, he hasn’t answered once. I call him the same time everyday. Granted can they be busy at that time, possibly but for 3 weeks?

Does your custody schedule entitle you to talk to your son daily during her custody time? If YES, I would report the violation. If NO, that was generous of her to allow you extra time for so long. Her stopping indicates your co-parenting relationship with her is deteriorating. Is there anything you can do to improve that? The more you can do to bump up your relationship and not bump down your relationship, the more you may get "perks" like the above.

"Dear XW,

I get I have not always been the co-parent dreams are made of. This transition has been tough. I want to do better. I don't expect a response now, but expect me to be more receptive than defensive the next time you reach out about the kids (e.g., something you'd prefer to happen at both homes or that I could do to make their lives easier.)

Thanks,
Wolf"

Based on prior communications, you seem to be allowed to communicate with your XW. I would not admit any faults that could be used against you in a courtroom. You could consult your attorney if you're unsure about your wording.

[Traveler]

I got the transcripts from the court. I am sure my ex will make up more lies in court on Friday to keep me away from my daughter. I bet all of you, because if this gets dropped I am supposed to have my children for the weekend..

Given the transcripts support your position, and given you were denied access to your Ds for 6-8 weeks over this, I'm concerned your attorneys are only presenting this to the court when the 6-8 weeks are up. Instead of a parental alienation expert, you may just need an attorney who follows up at least weekly?

I bet my daughter some how won’t be coming

Probably not. The court can stop your XW from interfering with your ability to communicate with and see your D during your custody time. It's a great battle to win! It's then up to your D what she wants. This may be a "start small" thing--e.g., video chats, quick trips to ice cream, etc. She may NEVER want to see your GF and that's okay. Your GF is your family. Your GF is not her family.

[Dawn70]

CW makes some excellent points!

I don't tend to go in for those tv psychologists because I think they are more about the show than the actual practice, but I occasionally watch Dr. Phil and he sometimes says stuff that resonates with me. 3 things that he says all the time that pop into my head every time I read your posts are: people either get it or they don't; don't involve children in adult things (meaning situations, decisions, discussions); and do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?

So, people either get it or they don't: that one seems pretty self explanatory. People have told you on here repeatedly that you can only control what YOU do and not what your XW does. They've also repeatedly told you to follow the court orders you have and to document, document, document. And, many have mentioned that in order to make your situation better you are going to have to learn how to communicate effectively with your XW which leads me to the last one of do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? At the end of the day, you have to do what is right for yourself and your family, but you can't do that at the expense of always proving a point that your XW is bad and you aren't. You may occasionally have to compromise or let something go in an effort to win the larger battle. Case in point, you said you understand what everyone is saying about commenting to your son, but you have let a lot go and you HAD to say something. No, you didn't HAVE to say something, you WANTED to say something because you wanted to be right. Were you right? Maybe, but you don't know for sure why your XW said no, so maybe not. But, did you get the result you wanted in saying something negative to your son? Nope, didn't change a thing, did it? Sometimes you have to pick your battles and you have to prepare to lose a battle or two in your overall effort to win the war. This also ties to the 3rd one about not involving kids in adult things. Look, I get that your wife is talking 10 kinds of smack over there, or at least that is your perception, based on texts you have seen, but again, as I have said many times, YOU CAN'T CONTROL HER. You can only control how you behave and respond. Don't you want to do anything and everything you can to make sure your side of the street is totally clean and you are above reproach in all this so that when things do come to court, you have done everything by the book and she is the one looking like a loon because she is flaking out and doing her own thing and changing plans and going against court orders? I know you think she has got the law on her side and she's gotten some judgments that you don't agree with but the best way you can respond to that is to continue to be the one who is above reproach and following ALL orders to the letter so that no one can come back and say well Wolf didn't hold up his end of the deal. Does that make sense? I'm not suggesting that you have to tell your kids you love their mother and she is wonderful, but what I am suggesting is just leave her name out of your mouth in discussions with your kids. If THEY bring her up, listen, validate, but do NOT add your own commentary. Is she a horrible, evil person? Quite possibly, but you don't want to plant that in the kids' heads so they are parroting it later as "Dad told me....."

[DejaVu6]

I had this discussion with a friend of mine. He said that early on in his divorce process, he noticed that when he said something negative about his ex, his son would either get a blank or sad look on his face. He realized that his son was feeling caught in the middle so he resolved to try his hardest to cut out his personal feelings towards her and try to show kindness and love in regards to her. He said it was amazing how that bonded his son to him. He got closer to his dad and saw him as his “rock”. It took his mom longer to figure that out and it did some harm to their relationship. Now that his son is 19, his relationship has improved with his mom but he lives with his dad and they are very close.

This is an incredibly difficult situation Wolfman but it won’t last forever. Be true to the person you want to be and don’t be dragged down to her level. Your kids will notice. They will feel safe around you. Do not give in to your emotions. Choose better not bitter and rise above. (((HUGS)))

[Wolfman]

Thank you everyone for chiming in. A lot of good stuff there. Tomorrow I have court. Right now it looks like the lawyers came up with an agreement. Drop the order of protection and go to court ordered therapy. With a new therapist that is progressive. Meaning over time increase my time with my daughter. The other therapist after 8 months did nothing.

I want to speak honestly. These last 3 years have beyond difficult. I just want to say thank you to all for listening and chiming in. I come to this board and it is my therapy. I do t know about a lot of you and how you cope and deal. But I am struggling. I am getting more and more depressed. I know what a lot of you will say, go on meds, I did that and doesn’t want to do that again. Go to therapy, did that and talking doesn’t change my situation. The best way to describe what I am feeling. Listen to Metallica, “Nothing Matters”. My ship is sinking and sinking fast. The loss of my daughter as really taken a toll on me. How do some of you do it? Deal or cope with your situation? Sorry for the rant I am just hurting bad. Thanks for listening. I’ll let you all know how court goes tomorrow.

[Wolfman]

Sorry correction the Metallica song is “fade to black”

[pinn]

The loss of my daughter as really taken a toll on me. How do some of you do it? Deal or cope with your situation? Sorry for the rant I am just hurting bad. Thanks for listening. I’ll let you all know how court goes tomorrow.

The gym and physical activity was the key for me but everyone is different. Exercise is an anti-depressant in itself.

[Traveler]

Hi Wolf,

I cope with life by doing fun things with fun people. Saturday, I paddleboarded picnicked, and walked a beach with Ms Paddleboarded. Sunday I hiked and picnicked with a female friend. Monday I paddleboarded and picnicked with Ms Catwomam. Tuesday and Wednesday I hiked with my kids. Thursday I saw a movie and chatted with a male friend. Thursday I picnicked with Ms Ukelele. I have something to look forward to everyday.

As for a hard moment—hearing about my XGF getting into a vulnerable situation while out drinking and meeting men—I posted on here. My feelings, key details, I got good feedback in handling it. Post more here?

A couple of other uncomfortable moments I talked to friends about. I’m working on being more vulnerable.

Often being outdoors and physical activity helps me.

As for Fade to Black, while I’m curious, I haven’t listened yet as I was happy and home alone last night, a delicate thing. Music has power. I often listen to music that’s lifts my mood or helps me dig deep.

[Dawn70]

I think it is different for different people, coping strategy that is. For example, I agree with CW's very last line about music having power. I listen to music often. Always in my car and most of the time in my office or when I'm just puttering around the house cleaning or whatever. I'll even have on music for background noise when I read. Reading and arts and crafts are also nice outlets for me. Taking a nice walk or going to the lake to swim and hang out on the beach also help. CW's post just made me tired, but I'm an introvert, so that much people time would actually not help me cope at all, but have the opposite effect, so I make sure that I have down time and alone time built into my week on a regular basis so that I don't have to be "on" all the time. My professional life forces me to be "on" 95-99% of the time when I am at work, depending on which particular hat I'm wearing, so having down time after work or on weekends helps.

Specifically to address your point that you think a lot of people would advise you to go on meds. I think you might be surprised at the number who WON'T advise that. Don't get me wrong, I don't have any issues at all with folks seeking counseling and using prescribed meds responsibly to get the help they need. When my XH first walked away I went to counseling and at one point, my counselor and my doctor worked together to prescribe me meds that I took for about 8 months and it helped. But, I knew from the beginning that it was NOT a long-term solution and I didn't want to become dependent on that, so it wasn't something I wanted to do for an extended period. So, I would NOT advise you to go on meds, unless it were a last resort type of thing. Now, others may disagree with me and that is fine, but I think you'll more likely find a lot of folks on here who offer a wide variety of things that worked for them that don't involve being medicated. Pinn and CW both pointed out exercise, which is a researched and known anti-depressant. Outdoor activities can also be relaxing, fun, and full of stress-relieving opportunities. I DO think counseling is good and if you get one who is not working for you the way you think he/she should be, then change. I lucked into a great one on the first try, but not everyone has that luxury. I wouldn't give up on that, though, as the benefits are astronomical. It really helps unpack a LOT.

I'm a big fan of reading because I can lose myself in another world/life for a time. I also like arts and crafts and organizing/re-doing my house because those are all very creative things for me and allow me to make things and change my environment without really spending a ton of money. If I'm REALLY struggling with something, I go to my dad's farm and help him feed or build fence or do whatever of the other millions of farm chores always need doing because physical labor can be very stress-relieving. Gardening, landscaping, bird-watching...so many great outdoor activities. You just have to find what speaks to you and run with it. And it may take you a bit. If you try something and don't like it, try something else. The possibilities are endless.

[Traveler]

Tomorrow I have court. Right now it looks like the lawyers came up with an agreement. Drop the order of protection and go to court ordered therapy. With a new therapist that is progressive. Meaning over time increase my time with my daughter. The other therapist after 8 months did nothing.

Good luck today, Wolf, and let us know how it goes. (:

Given your D's reluctance to see you, accepting less than 50/50 custody, but buy-in from your XW to take your D to therapy sounds great. I hope your agreement has "teeth" if your XW fails to take your D, and that it allows you to change therapists if the first one isn't working for you or your D. When you have your first visit setup is a GREAT time to extend an olive branch to your ex soliciting her advice on making your first visit with D successful for D (not you). After your first visit is a good time to express gratitude. You have an opening. You can slowly turn around this co-parenting relationship, which will in turn improve your relationship with your kids.

[Traveler]

I'm a broken record about mending fences with your XW. I get she may not be a good person. Co-parenting is a job, right? Sometimes you're nice to customers and colleagues who are not good people. I do remember when talking to my XW stressed me.

[Wolfman]

CW thank you for the advice. Everything was done between lawyers before we even went into court. So the order of protection was dropped. Thank god. Court mandated therapy with d, and it’s a new therapist. Hopefully this one is better. Some minor changes with my s. Those are the big things. Right now I can’t communicate with d, I can only communicate if the therapist recommends it. Right now I have to keep my distance. As far as communicating with the ex, minimal and has to be about the children. At least I can breath again and not worry about getting put in jail just because my ex feels like it. She likes to lie. Meantime the baby is 2 months. Time is flying.

[Traveler]

Wolfman, when is your first session with D? How frequent will they be? You must be excited.

Therapy takes time. I like when they give you clear homework. Hopefully within a few sessions, you’ll have impressed the therapist enough, a weekly phone call will be on the table.

re: Making peace with XW, only you know precisely how you’re allowed to communicate with her, but it’s hard to imagine terms where you could ask her about tackle football but couldn’t find a way to ask her advice for making this first therapy session a success for your D, either directly or with your attorney’s help.

[DonH]

Right now I can’t communicate with d, I can only communicate if the therapist recommends it. Right now I have to keep my distance.

This is why if at all possible you NEVER want to allow the government to decide things for your life. I know it was your W who got the government involved but this is yet again a huge example to everyone else what can happen when you can’t come to a decision on your own and instead get third parties who know nothing about you or your family involved. I mean step back and think about this - a comparable stranger is deciding you cannot communicate with your own daughter!!! You have not been charged let alone convicted of a crime against her. Yet you cannot have contact with her. The system is broken but it’s all we currently have to protect the minority of children who may need that protection.

It can be hard to work with an ex or soon to be ex but it’s nearly always better doing that than rolling the dice and allowing an unknown government stranger to decide what is best for your children and family. I say this less to you and much more to anyone else reading and thinking it’s a better move to go to court. It rarely if ever is and sadly this is an example if that.

[Traveler]

Don, Wolf says he and his lawyers agreed to those terms, they weren't dictated by a judge.

There often seems a disconnect between the facts presented and what his legal team agrees to. E.g., his team dropped all the accusations of XW not following court orders in return for her not making false accusations, his team took weeks to find a transcript showing the 2nd protection order shouldn't have been issued but didn't raise the issue in court and accepted pro-XW terms in return for not extending the order. Since he's not upset at his team and firing them, I assume we lack key legal details he prefers not to share here.

[Wolfman]

Wolfman, when is your first session with D? How frequent will they be? You must be excited.

Therapy takes time. I like when they give you clear homework. Hopefully within a few sessions, you’ll have impressed the therapist enough, a weekly phone call will be on the table..

Had my first therapy with d was this past Friday. It was a little hard. My d just bashed me how horrible I was and things I did. Most of which were lies. Lies that I am able to prove. I didn’t prove it with my d there, I showed the therapist afterward. Example, my complained that I called her a rat, because she was telling my ex everything that was going on in my house. Saying how dare I call her that. I acknowledged it and said maybe that was not appropriate and I apologized to her for that. But I said you are complaining that I said that and that it was hurtful, what about what your mom says to you? She said like what? And I quote, How many times did your mom say you smelled like $h*t and looked like that? She said she didn’t? I said are you sure, please don’t lie to the therapist and then she didn’t say anything. Afterward I have recordings of her mom yelling at her saying those things. Another lie was that I shoved my gr down her throat. I said I gradually tried to introduce her to you. And then she said I only met her a few times. I said why? Because you didn’t want me to bring her around more, so I was honoring ur wishes. So if I bring her around it’s too much, if I don’t you didn’t get to know her. So I lose. I said what about your mom? Was it ok she brought her bf around? She said she had no problem with him coming around. Another lie. I said to my daughter are you sure, again it’s just about being honest with this therapist. She said she didn’t have a problem. Again, after I showed the therapist texts between her and her mom and she said he is always around and how she is shoving him down her throat. I want the therapist to see how she lies and makes up things, to hopeful show the parental alienation. There is no s more but not going to get into it now. I hope this therapist can really help.

As far as the court case Don, my lawyers said if they call my d into testify all she has to say is I gave her anxiety or she felt harassed and all the evidence in the world won’t help me. My first and most important step was to get rid of that order of protection. I have to take it one step at a time. Look am I truly happy with everything, no, but I have to take the good with the bad.

[Traveler]

Wow, Wolfman, complicated stuff.

Most of which were lies. Lies that I am able to prove.

It can be hard to prove a negative. E.g., it's easy to prove "I said X", hard to prove "I didn't say Y." I didn't see any examples of lies about you. I did see examples of her lying to protect her mom.

Example, my complained that I called her a rat, because she was telling my ex everything that was going on in my house. Saying how dare I call her that. I acknowledged it and said maybe that was not appropriate and I apologized to her for that.

Was it "maybe not appropriate" or very inappropriate? Did you acknowledge that? Did you ask how it made her feel? Did you validate her feelings? It's hard being present in an uncomfortable moment, facing our human failings as parents. I assume it's true since you apologized. Props for taking ownership and apologizing.

But I said you are complaining that I said that and that it was hurtful, what about what your mom says to you? She said like what? And I quote, How many times did your mom say you smelled like $h*t and looked like that? She said she didn’t? I said are you sure, please don’t lie to the therapist and then she didn’t say anything. Afterward I have recordings of her mom yelling at her saying those things.

So. Much. Focus. On. Your. XW. Your D"s issue was you called her a rat. You spent 3 lines talking about that, 5 lines talking about what XW called her. I hope in the actual session you spent more time talking about your harsh words than XW's harsh words. I get your goal was to show your D lies--in these examples, to cover up your XW's shortcomings. You made that point as soon as she said, "She didn't" and you showed the recording. Wolf, in my own thread I mention my trauma and triggers. Things I am incapable of talking about well until I get more therapy. Your XW sounds like one of those topics for you. I do think therapy will be faster and more successful for your relationship with D if you dropped the XW, at least until you've worked through your trauma. If you feel XW is an unfit parent, maybe that could be brought up in a separate proceeding. Someone here mentioned appointing a guardian ad litem for your D which could help with that.

Another lie was that I shoved my gr down her throat. I said I gradually tried to introduce her to you. And then she said I only met her a few times. I said why? Because you didn’t want me to bring her around more, so I was honoring ur wishes. So if I bring her around it’s too much, if I don’t you didn’t get to know her. So I lose. I said what about your mom?

I'm not sure where you feel she lied here. She didn't want to see your GF. If I understand correctly, you think that's unfair. XW got to introduce her BF, while for you a "fast" approach was shoving her down D's throat, a "slow" approach" meant D didn't know her. With your GF, with your D, there may not have been an optimal frequency that would've won. The winning technique was probably honoring that D wants nothing to do with GF, that she only wanted to see you?

[Ready2Change]

what about what your mom says to you?.....I said what about your mom?

Wolf, you still have some serious personal growth to do.

[Traveler]

Wolf, how are you doing figuring out coping techniques? Dawn and I had shared what works for us--some the same, some different. I'm sorry you're struggling just now. I'd take you out for a beer if you were near.

[harvey]

what about what your mom says to you?.....I said what about your mom?

Wolf, you still have some serious personal growth to do.

Indeed. Lots of arguing and excuse making in that session. Did you validate her feelings? It's her truth. Personally, I think you need to grow thicker skin.

[Dawn70]

I agree with what the others before me have said. You seem to be rather intent on being right and making your daughter out to be a liar so you can prove your XW is the bad guy. As I know I have said before, as have others, you CANNOT control what your wife does or says, so focus on what you are doing and saying and how you can interact with your daughter. You've lamented not being able to see her over and over and when you finally did get to see her, albeit in a therapy session, you spent that time saying "yeah but" rather than listening and validating HER feelings.

Look, I'm not defending your XW here, because I don't think she's mother of the year either, just based on what you say, but you HAVE to know that calling your daughter a rat is NOT the way to smooth things over. And, you mentioned you have texts and recordings of interactions between mother and daughter....WHY? Not your circus, not your monkeys.

Let me say something about the situation with your gf as well. As I recall, your girlfriend is a good bit younger than you and you started dating and she got pregnant fairly quickly. I also seem to recall that you all didn't have the steadiest of relationships and that you were going to dump her when she first found out she was pregnant, but decided to stay. Your daughter is telling you, IN THERAPY, which SHOULD be a safe place to talk things out, that she feels like your gf was shoved down her throat and you explain it to us as she lied. Wolf, you have to stop trying to control everyone else's thoughts, feelings, emotions. While you may not think you pushed a relationship with your gf on your kids, your daughter clearly does see it that way and that is how she feels so you have to validate that rather than accusing her of being a liar about it.

You have a long row to hoe, especially if you are going to keep fighting to be right rather than fighting to do the real work that building bridges with your daughter will take.

[unchien]

Wolf ~ Re-read tips on validation. Use them with your D. Truth arguments will get you nowhere.

[DejaVu6]

Wolf…echoing what others have said. A cautionary tale for you. My SD 21 had a similar interaction with my XH. After not talking to him for over a year, she decided to sit down with him for a meeting. I suggested to him prior to this meeting that he do nothing but listen and validate her experience of their relationship as I knew that it would take about five minutes for him to get defensive and start arguing with her that his view is the accurate one. He didn’t listen. Instead, he focused on defending himself and tried to come up with examples that, to him, proved she was wrong. She walked away from that meeting convinced that she was 100% right about him and has since cut him out of her life. Whether or not that changes in the future, I have no idea but if he wants it to, he is going to have to work really, really hard to make it happen. Knowing him the way I do and watching how his relationship with his dad has played out, I think that is highly unlikely to happen. If you want a relationship with your daughter, you are going to have to stop trying to defend yourself and start listening and validating…whether you agree with her or not. The “truth” is highly subjective and doesn’t actually matter in situations like this. Perception is everything. The sooner you understand this, the better. (((HUGS)))

[Traveler]

Wolfman, I hope you both feel the <3 towards you here, and our concern that this session didn't show D that Wolfman was ready to reconcile after a couple of months apart.

How can we help you get into a better place?

Keep posting, mate. The act of writing what's happening often helps me to process events.

[HaWho]

What is going on between you and your ex is a completely separate issue from your r with your daughter. Your daughter just needs one of you to be the bigger person; to be the adult in the room.

One-upping our ex spouses is not the way to do this. (Parental alienation is something to discuss with the therapist, but again, is a separate issue from your r with your daughter). She just needs someone to be the adult in the room, be her parent. This means not saying ANYTHING negative to her against her mother. You need to work on being the safe place where she can express all her feelings about all that went wrong in her life. That means listening. It’s hard to do. But that is the start to building a r with her. Scoring points against your ex will have d running the other way to the adult who is the bigger person in the room.

You and your ex both have very very messy lawns. To be honest, from an outsider looking in, I think your lawn is messier as you have introduced the gf and the baby all so fast that d has expressed this is all being crammed down her throat. She wants space from it all.

If you can’t listen to her I would back off in trying to see her, for a bit. Each interaction we have with people either makes things a little better or a little worse. Do you think your interaction with your d made things better or worse from her vantage point?

[Ready2Change]

You need to work on being the safe place where she can express all her feelings about all that went wrong in her life. That means listening. It�s hard to do.

This is your most important job as a parent- Validating your child's feelings. Even if they are expressing them about YOU.


Believe me I know that urge and feeling to defend my POV, but I can catch myself and shut the F up and start listening to my kids POV, and understand how they are feeling.

[HaWho]

Regarding Ready to Change�s comment on validating our kid�s feelings even when it�s about us, this takes tremendous strength. I am far from perfect in this area.

Recently my older son expressed some deep rooted pain over our divorce. I made the very grave mistake of defending myself. I made it about ME and tried to one up my ex/blame him. My son verbally slapped me and told me he just needed me to validate him (HIS words!!!) and told me this was about him and his feelings.

I am thankful that he is strong enough to communicate his needs. I had to do a BIG mea culpa for making it about me. After doing a deep dive into my emotions I realize I did it because of my pain in seeing him in pain. And my tremendous anger at my ex for having a MLC, marrying his affair partner in secret within MONTHS (telling my kids not to tell me) and then divorcing his affair partner in 5 months and keeping that a secret from me. The two are separate issues.

Kudos to your d for expressing her pain. That takes courage. Your r with your d will improve if you can just validate her pain. See a therapist, talk to friends or gripe here about your own grievances.

[Traveler]

Hey Wolfie, we're all in your corner, update soon mate. Teens are tough! Hope all is well.

[Wolfman]

Hey everyone. It’s been a while. For some reason I was having a difficult time getting on for a few weeks. Anyway I have my son this past week. Did a lot of fun things with him. It has been great. He is really starting g to come around to the baby (his half brother) he wants to be around him and love to play with him. It makes me so happy. Therapy with my d has been going ok. The therapist says she sees parental alienation. One thing my daughter said was that I picked my girlfriend over her. Something I will never understand. Honestly I don’t understand that point of view. My daughter just speaks so negatively about me, I try and just validate but sometimes I have to call out the lies. I just really miss my daughter. Hopefully this will help. My gf and I have our ups and downs, it’s tough she is just super over protective. I understand that this is her first but at times it’s too much. I am confused about something here. Since the baby has been born our relationship has gone by the waste side I’m not expecting for us to have hours together but a little time here and there. When I explain to her that we can’t forget about us, she tells me she is tired and she has to do stuff for the baby (wash sheets, wash bottles) again I understand that but when is there us time. It just hurts right now that she has no care about me right now. At night she sleeps at the edge of the bed with her back to me for the entire night. She says she needs to be able to hear the baby. I said what does facing the baby or facing me have to do with anything? She says she won’t be able to hear him? 🙄 I feel we are growing apart. Thanks for listening.

[Traveler]

Hey everyone. It’s been a while.

Hey Wolf! I was just thinking about you.

For some reason I was having a difficult time getting on for a few weeks.

They upgraded the software. For about two weeks it was nearly impossible to log on!

I am confused about something here. Since the baby has been born our relationship has gone by the waste side I’m not expecting for us to have hours together but a little time here and there. When I explain to her that we can’t forget about us, she tells me she is tired and she has to do stuff for the baby (wash sheets, wash bottles) again I understand that but when is there us time. It just hurts right now that she has no care about me right now. At night she sleeps at the edge of the bed with her back to me for the entire night. She says she needs to be able to hear the baby. I said what does facing the baby or facing me have to do with anything? She says she won’t be able to hear him? 🙄 I feel we are growing apart. Thanks for listening.

You don't sound confused. You two are growing apart. You two didn't seem so close before the pregnancy, so I might go out on a limb and say it temporarily brought you closer.

When I explain to her that we can’t forget about us,

Maybe it's semantic, but I don't love "explaining" to her what "we" (she) CAN and CAN'T do. She's your equal and CAN absolutely choose to forget about you. I'd probably say, "I'm scared we're not getting much together time. I love you and that's important for me to feel connected." I imagine LH would say, "Time together is important. This isn't working for me." Both recognize she has choices and agency, as do you.

she tells me she is tired and she has to do stuff for the baby (wash sheets, wash bottles) again I understand that but when is there us time.

Is there a fair labor division? E.g., while one of you is at work, I assume the other does this, but when you're both home a fair labor division is 50/50 on diapers, sheets, bottles, meals, baths, etc. If you want a happy partmer she needs r&r, too! (:

If she's as rested as you.. there's while the baby is napping, while the baby is happy, etc.

There's the possibility of a 2-hour sitter to allow going out for a romantic dinner? This could be in the backyard if she's not comfortable being too far away from the baby.

Find other ways to connect, e.g., gifts, acts of service, etc.

It just hurts right now that she has no care about me right now.

I bet! It's a hard switch from lots of together time to very little together time.

At night she sleeps at the edge of the bed with her back to me for the entire night. She says she needs to be able to hear the baby. I said what does facing the baby or facing me have to do with anything? She says she won’t be able to hear him?

Interesting. Well, being "right" or "wrong" gets you nowhere--it's okay for you to each have different perspectives on sleeping positions. Assuming you've addressed her being well enough rested, I would instead request a few minutes of whatever snuggling you need before bed. Be clear it's not about sex. You want to cuddle up and feel connected to the person you love. (:

[Traveler]

Therapy with my d has been going ok. The therapist says she sees parental alienation. One thing my daughter said was that I picked my girlfriend over her. Something I will never understand. Honestly I don’t understand that point of view. My daughter just speaks so negatively about me, I try and just validate but sometimes I have to call out the lies. I just really miss my daughter. Hopefully this will help.

Believe it or not, her speaking negatively means you still have a shot. It's when they give up that you're toast. In the 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, Habit #5 is "Seek first to understand, then to be understood." See if you can hold off on "calling out her lies" (being understood) until you fully understand her opinion that you picked your GF over her. If you just can't get it, repeat what she told you, and ask the therapist for help. "I hear her that insisting that she meet GF was picking GF over D. I'm racking my brain, but I'm not always good at seeing other points of view. Can you help me?"

[Wolfman]

Hey C.W. We do share responsibilities. I change diapers bell bath him, watch him half the time. I am just tired of this. I help her with so much and it’s not enough. I am exhausted too. She is super over protective of the baby. It’s a long list that I will get into another time. C.W. How are you doing? I will have to go to your thread. Thanks for responding.

As far as my daughter I am just heart broken.

[DejaVu6]

Hey Wolf. I see it similarly to CW… you two didn’t seem super close before. Likely the pregnancy brought you closer together, which is often the case, and having the baby has brought to the surface some of the issues in your relationship that you talked about before your son was born. The overprotectiveness should fade over time. There are also a lot of things going on in a woman’s body and brain following the birth that people don’t really realize unless they’ve been through it. Be patient and continue to focus on your relationship with your kids.

RE: your daughter. Perspective is everything. Spend 80% of your sessions listening…really listening. If she believes you chose your gf over her, really try to understand her view and validate it. Doesn’t mean you agree with her but it does mean that you care about how she feels. CW is on the money here…whether you are right or wrong is irrelevant.

Glad to hear things are going well with your son.

[job]

Please start a new thread and link this one to it. Thanks!