Fierce compassion, equanimity, integrity #2

[wooba]

Thanks, kml! Actually, your post has me thinking--I believe he did check out because he didn't feel loved. He recently said he felt like no one loved him then, not me, not his friends. I can't know of course, but I do think he was depressed. I think he felt horrible, and the only way to escape was to really escape his life as he knew it. Then, in his mind, all his unhappiness was due to my not being able to love him. I blamed myself too at first. Now I am beginning to understand these feelings of unworthiness were probably there in some form all along, and they will continue to be there until he looks inside and begins to really understand where they come from. It does seem that he was trying and is trying to stop his pain (as opposed to examining it, understanding it).

yup. My ExH also. He constantly told me that he didn't feel that I really loved him, and at the same time he would say that he is unworthy of love. I don't even think it was a difference in love languages, it's simply the fact that these people need to figure their sh1t out first. If they don't look within, it's always someone else who's ruining their day.

[Gerda]

Mine told me over and over that I didn't know how to love him or be a wife and went through the list of all the men I had inappropriate relationships with, including a famous actor who used to come to our business and was half my age, and three priests who counsel me. He used this to justify his choice to connect with old girlfriends for lunches, etc., and then that just got worse and worse. In the early days, I felt terrible for what a bad wife I had been because I thought I must have done something that appeared inappropriate even though of course there was NOTHING there, and I committed myself to what I saw as a sort of penance of waiting while he did those things.

I have been watching videos on narcissism and narcissistic abuse and they are really fascinating. You will see all your lists checked off. One guy called Sam Vaknin does videos that are a little odd and very scientific but spot on. His major premise has to do with the narcissist seeing every act of love you attempt to undertake as threatening to his "perfect object," which is himself. It's basically Gollum and the ring. It was kind of Jungian and hard to understand but once I understood what he was saying, it was a pretty perfect way to understand the hatred and spewing. Because as we all know, no matter how much hatred and spewing there was, we kept thinking it was an anomaly that would soon be over. And I know for some of us, the MLCer does heal and come back. But for some of us, the NPD was always there, and the MLC just made it run wild. The Jungian sort of outlook this guy had explained exactly why, the more I loved, the more he hated. That process was part of my journey of becoming a Christian -- I was basically enacting the cross, so I suddenly understood it. But now, seven years later, I realize that H is also literally in hell. He can't receive love and will do anything to beat it back, like a demon terrified of the light. And that that is his choice, even if it very sadly comes from the abuse he suffered as a child. But that I don't have to stay in hell with him.

P.S. Goodbye, my friend! Today is last day before Lent.

[cardinal]

Now you just got to believe your own thoughts. Allowing your thoughts to influence and alter your values is a slow process.

It's simple--just believe my own thoughts! Believe the ones I want to reinforce and discard the others. Deceptively simple sometimes.

I don't even think it was a difference in love languages, it's simply the fact that these people need to figure their sh1t out first. If they don't look within, it's always someone else who's ruining their day.

DejaVu and wooba, yes, the common thread is that we may look within, but we can't force them to, as much as we, okay now I'm talking about myself, think that might help them and not just the M. It has taken me a long time to begin to believe that H feeling unloved was not all due to something I did or didn't do. As my IC said the other day, I could have spoken his love languages perfectly, and he still probably would have found something that seemed to tell him I didn't love him enough, because those feelings of unworthiness are and always were a part of him that existed long before I came along. It's his job to begin to understand where they come from from and that they aren't caused by me.

Gerda, I hope you are enjoying your break from the boards! In some ways I think it would be easier for me to understand my H's behavior if I thought he had always been a narcissist or BPD (as I entertained for a while when I was trying to make sense of his behavior for myself). I sometimes feel I could write him off then--like, I would never want to be in a R with this person again! Of course I know it wouldn't be that simple.

I keep coming back to my H saying he had to kill part of himself to break free from the pain he was in, and it tracks so much with the kind of thing he later said when we got back together after I broke up with him when we were dating. He had, then, the awareness that he was just doing stuff to stay busy and outrun the pain of our breakup. When he said recently that he had to kill part of himself during BD, it both reminded me how ingrained this pattern is for him and also renewed my hope a little that eventually he will again realize that all the running he is doing won't protect him from pain or fix his unhappiness in the long run.

It was easier for me to long for the day when this would all be over and I would be living alone again when he was angry and irritable. He's been somewhat generous and kind for the last couple of months, and it's easier to miss the good in him that I still believe is there somewhere. I've had dreams for the last couple of weeks where we're reconnecting in some way. And then I feel naive for still thinking this would ever be possible. One of my far-away friends texted me recently to ask me about something she saw him post on social media. I haven't followed him for over a year now, so I don't see anything. I asked her if he seemed different to her, just via his curated social media persona, and she said something like her 20-year-old sister's posts are more sober and sane, and it's clear he thinks he is living some kind of timeline of what he sees as liberation, but is really just in delusion and denial.

Like, I know he has a long way to go. And I know if he doesn't do the work there is no way he would ever be a capable partner to me or anyone else. I'm not sitting around waiting for him, but I am still living with him, so what does that mean?

20 months post-BD, 4 months after he filed and nothing happened we are back to living as friendly roommates. My IC has pointed out this is part of the same pattern as when we were M, in that he was extremely avoidant and I fell into that pattern too. The difference is when we were M, I didn't realize how much he was shoving down or how much of a people pleaser he was to the people close to him. Now I'm at least aware of the pattern.

But I'm not comfortable with the idea that I'm still just part of reenacting a similar pattern with him. I also don't know what else I'm supposed to do, if I don't want to leave the house and I don't want to try to push the D faster myself (partly because I'm still thinking he'll be more open to agreements if he feels like he is in control, partly because I don't know that I could really move anything along at this point myself anyway, since the ball is in his court).

I do feel like I participate in this alternate reality with him, where we're joking and sharing food and no one mentions this whole crazy annulment/divorce thing that's going on in the background.

It's like unless he can make himself really angry, angry enough to, say, finally file for an annulment, he shoves all that down and just focuses on staying busy with his new friends and life is good.

He created this alternate reality. I guess I resent a little that I should be the one who is constantly saying, let's communicate about this D and how long are you actually going to live here? Doesn't that presume that I could pop his alternate reality bubble or cause him to move through this process in any other way than he chooses to? Any time I've suggested mediation or tried to in some way to move things forward, nothing happens.

But I also realize part of me doesn't want him completely gone from my life. Part of me thinks isn't it possible he also doesn't want to face what it would mean to move out and never see me again? And the other part of me says, he doesn't care about that. So I'm in this place of feeling a little delusional myself. By participating in this alternate reality, I'm maybe just prolonging my grief. While I'm still living with him, I can't fully move on. My other friend said something about it being like living with a teenager who has their own life and has no interest in yours. That hurt, but it does feel true.

Mulling all that over on this sunny, windy day. Sending warm thoughts to all of you in colder places!

[may22]

Mmmm, Cardinal. This is a tough one.

I think this is a really good series of questions for yourself, worthwhile to dig into more.

Thinking about you participating in this alternative reality with him...I wonder a bit what DnJ would say to this. Physically you are sharing a space and a life together, or at least parts of life. I don't know that you necessarily are sharing your perceptions of reality, in that you seem to have a grasp on reality and he does not, and this little cocoon of make-believe seems to be working for him right now.

Here are some things you said that stood out to me:

But I'm not comfortable with the idea that I'm still just part of reenacting a similar pattern with him.

He created this alternate reality. I guess I resent a little that I should be the one who is constantly saying, let's communicate about this D and how long are you actually going to live here?

I also don't know what else I'm supposed to do, if I don't want to leave the house and I don't want to try to push the D faster myself (partly because I'm still thinking he'll be more open to agreements if he feels like he is in control, partly because I don't know that I could really move anything along at this point myself anyway, since the ball is in his court).

But I also realize part of me doesn't want him completely gone from my life.

By participating in this alternate reality, I'm maybe just prolonging my grief. While I'm still living with him, I can't fully move on.

These things taken together say to me that you are not wholly comfortable living with him in your current circumstances, even as fulfilled and busy as you are now with your work. I didn't pull any of your words around where he is or may be or may not be in his journey, because... I don't think it matters, much. You seem far more detached and healthy in talking about it than you did before, which is really wonderful to see. But I guess to me what it all boils down to is... what does CARDINAL want? What life do you envision for yourself, with him out of the equation? Maybe he heals eventually and maybe he does not. As you know, not within your control.

But for you... is this what you want from your own life? Making jokes and sharing food and pretending that he isn't also trying to erase your marriage and lives together as it if never existed? He seems so broken, to me, to have done that, and even more so that he can live all these days right in your same house and have no awareness of how his actions may have affected, currently affect, or will affect you. Teenager does seem like the right analogy, just so blindingly self-centered and oblivious. I don't think it is what you want, and the resentment and discomfort you are feeling is telling you that. I would attend to those little feelings you have. They're worth listening to. And the last thing you want is to get to a place where that negative energy starts to build up and spill into the gratitude and self-compassion you've been cultivating.

The house has always been this big thing that was a non-negotiable for you, connected in a lot of ways to your even living in the place where you live (at least, I recall you saying that if you gave up the house, you may have to move back to your hometown as you wouldn't be able to afford to stay where you are now). I think you went through a process before of thinking about leaving and decided to stay. I want to challenge you-- what if you did move out? What then? What if your landlord came by tomorrow and said, hey, so sorry, I put the house on the market and when your lease is up, you'll have to move? I guess a little part of me does suspect that the last couple of lines I pulled are connected to the house... maybe part of the reason you are so attached to it and cannot envision finding another workable living solution is indeed because you aren't ready, or don't think you are ready, to have him completely gone from your life.

But I do also think that you may be prolonging your grief... or maybe not that, but delaying living your own best life. I feel like he's kind of this net that is weighing you down, Cardinal. Maybe you aren't completely trapped in it anymore but at least one of your wings is still enmeshed. What would it look like for you to shake off that net and fly free?

(((Cardi)))

[cardinal]

Thinking about you participating in this alternative reality with him...I wonder a bit what DnJ would say to this.

Hi, may! Me too--I have been wondering what DnJ would say.

I would attend to those little feelings you have. They're worth listening to. And the last thing you want is to get to a place where that negative energy starts to build up and spill into the gratitude and self-compassion you've been cultivating.

I haven't been feeling much resentment or anger lately. When I do, it's fleeting. It wasn't until IC suggested in some ways I was participating in this same pattern with H that I started to feel more uncomfortable. Isn't my whole journey, well, part of it, about learning to change the patterns I don't want to have in my life anymore? Up until she said that, I've been for the most part okay with feeling like I'm living my own life while H is living his, which just happens to include us living in the same house and H's prolonged inaction on our D, apparently. Last night I was thinking that if H and I were in a relationship, we would be repeating a pattern of communicating on one level and not communicating on another, but one difference is that we're not in a relationship anymore, right? So am I participating in this pattern or in his reality, or am I merely inhabiting a corner of it simply because we live in the same house? Like if we were a Venn diagram, I overlap his circle, but I don't create the stuff in his circle.

Or by not continuously acknowledging to him that it's weird to go weeks living like friendly roommates while this unresolved D hangs in the background, am I hiding from reality too? Am I reinforcing his reality?

I'm resisting this in part because I just don't see it as my responsibility anymore. If we were in a relationship, I would need to do my part to change things, but we aren't. I'm tired, and I don't want to put any more effort into this D than I have to. I gathered all my financial information, now let him do some work.

The other part of all this is realizing that it's halfway pleasant to interact with him on this friendlier level. I've missed that. It does seem like after he filed for an annulment and then, a couple months later, talked to me about regretting that, a layer of the anger and resentment he was directing toward me has dissolved. I could be wrong; and it could come back, but there does seem to be an ongoing effort on his part to connect to me on a human level that wasn't there before. And, okay, he's started making croissants and giving me my own stash, and they're really good. Ha.

That part should be separate from any decision making I do, separate from the intellectual car, but I do acknowledge that it is there.

I guess a little part of me does suspect that the last couple of lines I pulled are connected to the house... maybe part of the reason you are so attached to it and cannot envision finding another workable living solution is indeed because you aren't ready, or don't think you are ready, to have him completely gone from your life.

This is part of the question, right? How much of my behavior is actually driven by this? I do feel like it's a layer but not the main driver. But what if I'm wrong?

And the other thing is that losing all financial security I thought I had with BD and having to find a way to support myself in this place has made me very, very wary of moving, because it means an even crazier amount of money spent on rent and less of the already tiny amount I'd be able to save if stayed here on my own. I also appreciate that I can build up my emergency fund while still living with H. If I lived in a different place and could easily move to any number of other similar houses for the same rent, would I? I want to say I would have done this by now.

What could/should I actually do, short of moving out? What action should I be taking vs. what is just an illusion of action? What is leaving him to deal with the choices he's made on his own versus not doing enough to take control of my life?

I guess a first step would be checking in with my L to see what happens next if he continues to not do anything. Every time I think about emailing her I just see dollar signs!

[Sage4]

Hi dear Cardinal, how lovely to read your sweet voice here lately. I empathize so much with your thoughts and experiences and am sending lots of hugs.

And the other thing is that losing all financial security I thought I had with BD and having to find a way to support myself in this place has made me very, very wary of moving, because it means an even crazier amount of money spent on rent and less of the already tiny amount I'd be able to save if stayed here on my own. I also appreciate that I can build up my emergency fund while still living with H. If I lived in a different place and could easily move to any number of other similar houses for the same rent, would I? I want to say I would have done this by now.

What could/should I actually do, short of moving out? What action should I be taking vs. what is just an illusion of action? What is leaving him to deal with the choices he's made on his own versus not doing enough to take control of my life?

One thing that we see in these MLC/WAW/WAS's is clear cognitive dissonance. Which is often viewed as a detriment to a whole human; but is in its fundamental origins cognitive dissonance is a survival mechanism. What if we were able to shift it a little and use it to our benefit, maybe not complete cognitive dissonance, but a more evolved cousin to it... such that in your case you are able to say "this is an interesting situation I find myself in. I am not really in a R with this person and also maybe not just in a roommate situation either, due to our past. But we are living together at the moment and for the time being it is beneficial for me; there is more good than harm so I am OK continuing in this space." (Obviously this only works if it is true. I do not advocate for staying in an abusive situation or even a situation where you are walking on eggshells or being treated poorly or in any circumstance where the emotional or psychological toll is too much.)

I love the Rilke quote that says:

“Don’t search for the answers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not be able to live them. And the point is to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps then, someday far in the future, you will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer.”
– Rainer Maria Rilke

Maybe right now, this situation serves you. Maybe you don't need all the answers ('when will H actualize the D? When will I have to move? Will I have to move? What is he thinking? I am participating in his alternate universe? If so, should I be?).

My son said to me at dinner last night, 'Mama, is the saying true that all good things come to an end?' I had to stop for a minute. He is very existential and at the same time very literal; I did not want to give him a binary answer and have that be 'The Truth' for the rest of his childhood. And the answer that came to me is that rather than thinking of it as 'all good things come to an end,' it might make more sense to think of 'everything is constantly changing.'

And if we look at life through that lens, we release expectations (because everything is going to change anyway) and gain freedom to live as intently as we can for that moment, nothing more and nothing less.

Happy Friday Cardi, I hope you have a relaxing weekend that includes admiring blooming daffodils in your garden. xxx

[bttrfly]

What could/should I actually do, short of moving out? What action should I be taking vs. what is just an illusion of action? What is leaving him to deal with the choices he's made on his own versus not doing enough to take control of my life?

I feel like you need an internal shift. Prayer and meditation works for me. Loving kindness meditation and asking for guidance, then going about your life and waiting for the answer is what comes to me as an answer to your question.

[DnJ]

Hello cardinal

It is interesting when we look at ourself participating in someone’s alternate reality. Like the Venn diagram you spoke of; our views overlapping their’s and a new shade of colour or reality emerging.

I have been wondering what DnJ would say.

There is no alternate reality. There is no absolute reality either. Reality is what one makes it. We all create our own heaven or h3ll or anywhere in between, and it is always changing and shifting. Like your circle on the big Venn diagram it interacts with many other realities. Perceptions, feelings, thoughts, beliefs, all at different times getting influenced, shifted, strengthened, altered, changed as other people’s ideas and lives mix with your’s.

You are not participating in an alternate reality of H. You are just living your life, which currently has more of H in it than it has in sometime.

The feelings of alternate come from the oddness of H’s behaviour. H’s behaviour, his present suppling you a stash of croissants for example, is not of his norm as of late and is therefore not expected. You are “expecting” the divorce/annulment stuff is waiting there in the background and he is just getting ready to spring it upon you. Ah, expectations. Even when the non-meeting of them is more a positive, we still get confused, anxious, and start to feel a bit of resentment.

It has been months and H is still living there, and not seemingly pursuing to end things any time soon. So, what’s the big deal? Isn’t this a good thing? It could be. It may not be. Point is, don’t manipulate his path. Walk your path.

Ideas of pushing forward a D have a subtext of manipulation about them. Like trying pushing H forward. You have gathered your data, let H do the heavy lifting now - if he truly wants to. The standing LBS’ path is about healing themselves and outlasting MLC. H is still in the home. Be roommates. Outlast this thing.

To that end, you focus upon yourself. You keep living. You GAL. You continue to have those friendly dinners and banter. This is not some alternate reality, this is your present reality. And it’s a good one! Live it. Enjoy it. Enjoy the croissants. Lol

Joking aside. If H is to emerge or awaken, none of us know how, when, or what path he would walk. Leave that to God. Do not manipulate his path, you do not want that responsibility. Presently your’s and H’s paths have converged somewhat. You are not looking to divorce, don’t need to have financial protection at the moment, are prepared if things did take a turn, so enjoy this time, and remain pressure-free towards H and yourself.

Or by not continuously acknowledging to him that it's weird to go weeks living like friendly roommates while this unresolved D hangs in the background, am I hiding from reality too? Am I reinforcing his reality?

Yes, you are reinforcing his reality. And you are altering it as well.

In truth, if you were to fight against it, that would reinforce it even stronger and prevent the possibility of your influence altering his perceptions. Pressure-free; time; space; those allows H to feel differently. Allows him the time and space to possible see differently. A pressure-free environment has a much better probability of H adjusting his view and moving along his path. Your circle affects his Venn diagram too - when he is calm enough to see it. Nothing you do affects his path, and everything you do affects it.

Are you hiding from reality? No, you are seeking the very existence of it.

What could/should I actually do, short of moving out? What action should I be taking vs. what is just an illusion of action? What is leaving him to deal with the choices he's made on his own versus not doing enough to take control of my life?

Questions are pretty common and a good sign of healing and a healthy person. I find questions arise from one challenging their beliefs and ensuring their convictions serve them and are wanted. Perhaps that resonates with you and your current place along your path.

Speaking of your path, I’d place you in limbo. Detached, had indifference, feelings returning, and can find indifference when needed. It’s a weird place, to be honest. One you probably have never really had the need to experience, or previously experience at such a scale and duration.

It is pretty clear there is still a void of feelings. A strange pull to wonder if your life is going in a good direction. Nature abhors a vacuum and our emotional self looks to fill the hole indifference has created. Certain feelings will look larger than they really are. Will feel more real, more true, and much bigger. Do not make decisions based upon feelings - especially when the void of indifference is warping your reality.

This limbo can hurt. Do take solace, this limbo is not punishing, for it is a choice of your’s. Seeing this as a step along one’s path removes much of the sting and pain from existing in a limbo state. We embrace this choice, this limbo. We embrace our life, as it presently is, and live it greatly!

Perhaps, you can see your situation through such a lens. Perhaps you can let go the timeframe. Embrace the timeless hope. Embrace your present life. Be patient and let God.

The future is thankfully unknown, and will reveal itself, in good time.

D

[Eagle3]

Hi Cardinal,

What DnJ just wrote, I guess these are the exact words you needed to hear.
Indeed, embrace your current situation, you are doing the right thing. xxx

[cardinal]

I've been wanting to check in here (warning: long post), and of course Wooba’s post echoes somewhat how I’m feeling these days. Work is busy—everyone on our small team has been working hard to meet the deadlines for our current project. I’ve been able to pick up a few overtime hours, and it’s been satisfying to really see what we can do when we all pull together. I have also been thinking about a what’s next question—do I have career goals/work goals? I really like your commitment to staying present, wooba, and I appreciated your thoughts on work and life as well DnJ. I’ve been able to return to writing on the weekends now—it’s the least time I’ve ever had to write, but I’m making it work. And after nearly two years away from writing, it feels wonderful to be able to do it finally. It’s like I can be my full self again.

Then I read Eagle’s latest post—feelings creeping back, hope there again! That’s where I find myself today. One of those days.

I think I mentioned here at some point that last fall, when H’s anger continued (around the time he filed for an annulment), he at one point declared that he would not be filing taxes jointly this year. I suggested to H that would probably end up just costing more, not less as he expected. I stressed about that, figured out what I would need to withhold so as not to owe any money, consulted with a tax advisor, and accepted that H would do what he would do. I checked with H before I filed a month ago, just to make sure his plan was the same. I filed.

And I’ve mentioned H has seemed to process a lot of his anger—this year is different than the last 18 months or so. It feels like the chip on his shoulder toward me is gone.

Anyway, both notes are background for what happened this week. H went to file his taxes and was—you’ll never guess—aghast to find he would owe nearly four times what he would owe if we had filed jointly. He called me from the accountant’s to ask if, by chance, I hadn’t submitted my taxes yet. I told him I had. H of last year would have found a way to blame me. Instead, H admitted he should have looked into things and this was all his fault. He hung up.

I felt bad for him. I mean, it wasn’t an ungodly amount, but it would have wiped out my small savings. I googled just to see, and found out we could file an amended joint return so that he wouldn’t owe so much. Reader, maybe I should have just let him live out the consequences of last year’s anger and impulsiveness, lack of foresight. That was on my mind. But I also felt like if I could help him at no cost to myself (he would pay me back the refund I was owed and would pay his tax liability), why not? It felt like the right thing to do. I would have wanted him to do it for me, had the situation been reversed.

So I offered up the possibility. I talked to my IC afterwards briefly, and she appreciated that I factored my values into the decision, but also suggested it could also be a way of enabling him. Well, then I questioned my decision even more. I thought of what people might say here.

Fast forward to today—H set up another appointment with an accountant, said we could ride together if I wanted. I haven’t been in his car with him since shortly after BD. I drove myself. There was never any question H would pay for everything and make sure I received the refund I was owed (in writing too). That surprised me. His gratitude surprised me. We sat side by side for an hour, the longest since BD, and it was fine. Except the office ended up being right across from the place where we bought our wedding rings, so I was remembering that day so vividly, and then as I had to sign the line for “spouse” over and over on our joint returns, I cried. I don’t think he noticed—masks are good for that. He held the door open for me, walked out with me, thanked me again, and then hugged me. It didn’t seem like a, “I’m just so relieved not to pay more money!” kind of thing. He seemed to genuinely see that I cared and was offering a kindness. Like it was a small act of vulnerability on his part for him to hug me. I was so surprised. Never in a million years, I would’ve said. We both headed home in our separate cars, but first I cried. That hug. I wasn’t prepared, and I’ve been in a funk all day since.

Like, remember those feelings you put away, remember that hope? Still there! It’s hard to still care, to realize how much I still care. Sometimes I want to search until I find some love letter he’s written someone else, something, anything, that would maybe erase the rest of my hope, because when I am reminded it’s there, it’s painful. It’s sad because I miss him and I can’t do anything about it but accept that things are the way they are. I don’t have expectations that he will change—oh, geez, though, just realized I have expectations that he won’t change. He’s just so good at distracting himself.

Cue return of all the feelings, all the stories that serve me and all the ones that don’t, like if he’s dating someone else now, he must’ve never really loved me, of course he’d want to be with someone else, SSM, etc etc. I told myself that those stories might be back temporarily, but I don’t have to believe them. (Helpful to read DnJ’s response to Eagle re: OW/OW2 in this regard.)

Cue feelings of I don’t want to be signing any more official papers that remind me our M is over. (Why? What does it change? I know. And yet seeing my name next to “spouse” on tax forms made me cry!)

Anyway, that’s where I’m at. Feeling weird. Feeling tender. Baking a cake this weekend. Love to everyone here!