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Hi Reason, I'm trying to catch up on your thread. I may say something someone else has covered, but bear with me.

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Early in the next year she's going to spend 6-8 months at sea. She claims OM will be in a completely different part of the country at a different duty station by the end of December 2020.. so if that's true, it could be a blessing?


Well, whenever a person is having an EA, it doesn't matter where they live. Being at sea hasn't stopped her M, and it won't stop her EA unless she's ended it for real. You can always hope for the best, but I'm just being very realistic with you. Even if this particular OM drops out, she's vulnerable to another EA with another guy when she's in an unhappy MR. It's not the man, it's whatever she's going through emotionally. I hope to read where she's ended the EA and gone through withdrawals before she goes back out to sea.

Are your reasons for thinking this is a MLC based on her behavior? Was there some type of trauma in her childhood that she never addressed? You might want to consider something else. The behavior of a MLCW and WW are very similar.

Speaking as a W, it feels very insecure to have a H who is out of a job for any length of time. If she is staying in the Navy just for job security, it could cause a lot of resentment in her. The wayward mindset is built on deep resentment, disrespect for the H, selfishness/self entitlement/self centeredness, & rebellion. This mindset kills attraction/desire for her H, and she loses the feeling of being in love with him. IMHO, waywardness comes from a place of anger/contempt, while a MLC comes from a past of personal pain/trauma that never healed.

Okay, on the next page of your thread, I see where you read some of my thread on LBH's with a WW, and you tend to agree.

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That said. My W had a EA and PA with another service member. At least one encounter of the PA was on a ship while underway. I can bring this up with her command and dramatically impact her career if not end it. It would also result in the OM being immediately out of the picture. Is this too far though? Or is it enough to snap her out of the A Fog? She would obviously be angry with me, but would that matter in the end? I know that nobody has a crystal ball. I know that there's no guarantees. I really just wonder if rolling this out with her command along with divorce would be the right call or if it would be seen as me giving up?


Some years ago on the board, there was a group of people who believed in taking it to the toughest level. They believed in exposing the spouse's affair.......and the term "scorching the earth" described it pretty well. I was not on board with going to this extent. My reasoning behind it was that it wouldn't cause her to fall into her H's arms if he had personally brought this exposure on her life in order to end an affair. I will, however, add that I've seen a few cases over the years that might have merited such action. smirk About the only way I would agree with it would be if the LBH had given up ever restoring the MR, b/c IMHO, this action would serve to deepen her contempt for him. Although there have been a few LBH's claim it saved their M, I really had my doubts as to the degree of affection the WW held for him. Everything regarding the acts of a LBH with a WW, has to be from the point of commanding respect. Is he getting her respect or is he just out to get rid of OM? How much vengeance is involved here? There is room for argument on both sides of this question. I understand the WW brings unhappiness and the destruction of the M on herself, and therefore, some people would say she brings this type of action from her H, as well. Most WW's rewrite their marital history, demonizing the LBH. So, it boils down to the individual H and his personal integrity of what is the right thing to do for him. You are aware of more details, such as WW & OM being on the same ship, etc. It would probably bust the physical affair, alright, but I don't know that it would bust a divorce. Am I making sense? We can talk more about it, if need be.

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She has childhood trauma that I forgot to mention. The death of her mother at a young age and molestation from a close relative for a long time. I also didn't elaborate on what makes me think she's in MLC.


Ah, there it is. Was she ever in therapy for these issues?

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I only mention this because, to me it gives me hope that if it's a MLC, it's something that she can overcome.


But Reason...........she can overcome waywardness, too! (((hugs))) I know this, b/c I lived it. And the thing about waywardness is that it doesn't have to last as long as MLC. I'm not trying to tell you what she is, but rather explain a WW. Could it overlap? I think it might in some cases, b/c some people's lives are so complexed.......why not? I've seen many newcomer LBH's think their W is going through MLC, when in reality, she was simply wayward. Is your W's unhappiness linked with her past, or is it linked to you and the MR? In a case of WW, the H is her direct point of resentment. He's to blame for all her unhappiness.....(according to her).

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If she decided a 6 month relationship was worth breaking up her family, risking her career, etc etc from a non-MLC mindset.. That just doesn't make sense to me, but she's willing to live with me for a year and a half at least in the meantime (for our kids). I dunno.. a lot of this is still so fresh in my mind and I'm honestly thinking out loud.


If I'm understanding you correctly, you see her reacting to a MLC as something she couldn't help, whereas waywardness is a choice. Is this what you're saying? FWIW, I agree, and I think it's why LBH's struggle so much with the idea that his W is wayward. He can find no logic to her actions, so it must be something else happening to her. In both cases, they are operating from their emotions. Therefore, their logical, right thinking goes out the door, and you see somebody you no longer recognize.

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My question is.. does DB-ing happen, regardless of what the underlying issues are? Does the approach change based on the situation? Everything I'm seeing says A) there's no such thing as a tried and true process and B) there are no rules.


We think of DBing as the work you currently put forth. I feel as if you are asking if DBing is the results of your actions. Good point either way. Here's the thing...... the other spouse is doing no DBing. They aren't the spouse obtaining the tools. It's the LBS that DB's. (A) It's up to the LBS to decide the specifics in the approach taken. There are no guarantees, b/c one sitch will not be everyone's sitch. On the board, you can receive more one-on-one advice in how to tweak your approach. (B) Not sure what you mean by rules. Everyone has to decide for themselves what works and doesn't work. DB is doing what works. The board's vets can advise from their expertise, but it's up to you to do it or not.

Okay, so I quickly realized I just needed to stop writing and read the rest of your thread. I'm sorry if you feel criticized. Some of us do come across rather critical sometimes, but I think it's our way of pointing to what we see needs work. FWIW, I think you've done a good job, considering everything. Please don't get down and discouraged if someone points to something specific, or doesn't see what all you've accomplished. We are here to try and help someone else who is going through this hell on earth.

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I've hit a point where I am really starting to feel beat down by all of this. I've tried to be optimistic and positive, but it's so heavy. I don't even think it's about her at this point, so much as her loss of self and the destabilization of our marriage has triggered the same in me. I've been slipping down a murky hill of despair mixed with bitterness, and I can't stand it. There is profound loneliness along with a void where a sense of purpose should probably be.

I think I need to seek counseling because this has gotten worse over the last couple of days. I'm not really even thinking about her. At this point, it's about thinking about the future and the giant question mark that looms over it in basically every aspect of my life. I'm going to keep on with the GAL activities because they do help, but man.. this is so heavy.


This feeling you currently have is not that unusual. In fact, Steve85 experienced it, as well as some others. It's when the LBH is very close to becoming a WAH. He's tried hard to emotionally detach, and who knows what thoughts he has, trying to numb his feeling? I think in a case like yours, where you don't really know where you stand.......can be the most exhausting. You probably feel there are days where you are just flying by the seat of your pants, right? I couldn't blame you. I think this emotion you currently feel is temporary. You two have been through a lot of turmoil, so don't trust how you feel too much at this time. We encourage individual counseling. Bear in mind, there are counselors out there that aren't pro-marriage.....and there are some who aren't worth a dime. However, there are also some who are very instrumental in getting your thoughts and feelings sorted out.

I want to say a few things on behalf of your W. She appears to be trying a lot harder than I did....(if her actions indicate her trying to salvage the MR). I went through terrible withdrawal symptoms that hung on for months. My physical and emotional health was suffering a lot. I had no hope, no feelings of love, no desire to do anything, and was terribly depressed about everything. I had made a decision to do the right thing and give up the EA and stay in my M. I decided to treat my H with respect. I prayed a lot!!! I had joined the board, and was here every night until I couldn't keep my eyes opened. Still........it took nearly two years before I truly felt remorse for what I had done. I was horrified when my kids found out. I was so embarrassed I couldn't look at them. But when it came to my H, the resentment had not turned to remorse. That took a long time. I even prayed that God would help me feel remorse, b/c I always knew what I did was wrong in the sight of God. One night while I was alone in bed and praying, the remorse came. My H was still setting up watching tv. I went to him, and I was so torn up he couldn't understand what I was saying. But he knew where it was coming. After that night, the resentment was gone and my feelings of respect followed my actions of respect. My feelings of love/desire for my H began to return.

I see signs in your W that appear as if she's experiencing withdrawal. The up & down emotion is to be expected. I think her case differs from mine, in the fact she hasn't made an official decision about the M. It's still up in the air, for both of you. The reason I told you about my experience is to say that she can choose to do the right thing, and then work toward the goals. As long as she waits for a certain feeling to direct her........she's going to stay confused. If she knows what is "right", then she should start behaving in the right way with the right attitude and speech. Those three things need to line up together. Trust me, it's not easy for her. This is a process for her, and both of you need to realize it. It's not something she snaps out of suddenly. She may have her eyes open and may even feel some guilt, but for the most part, she has to work through all of it. It was almost a two year process for me, and I was getting daily help, so I can only imagine what it's like for her. Last but not least, she has to learn to live with herself. Forgiving herself is hard.

Don't give up, Reason. Please stick with us, posting as often as possible.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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@sandi2
Thanks for posting this very thoughtful reply. I'm trying not to let my boys see me crying right now because what you've said puts forth the things I've withheld in my posts. I have been on the verge of seeking an EA, but I keep talking myself down. I prayed on it and opened my Bible to a specific passage (Proverbs 6), and it was like a bucket of cold water in my face.

When I came to the thread, I had come here to post for advice before sending an email to my wife today. That email was basically going to be me telling her not to contact me again. I do not know if that is wise or not, but my thoughts have been tempered by your post.

As to my W and withdrawal
She can't sleep, isn't eating right, has severe acne flare-ups, has put on a lot of weight, is forgetful, and has difficulty expressing herself. I had decided she was experiencing depression, but it could also be withdrawal or both. She's stated that she wants to love me but doesn't feel it. She has also said that she wants to stay together until our youngest is out of the house (a year and change).

My W and WAW or MLC
I think it's probably a combination of the two at this point. I also gave up on figuring it out and realized it probably doesn't make much difference. I believe your assessment is right. MLC offered an explanation I could get my head around.

Trust
I'm struggling with this more than anything. I find myself questioning everything. She doesn't seem to have any remorse towards me, but she feels guilty in general. She's said as much. Reading your testimony about how long it took and what that process was like was very illuminating, and I thank you for sharing that.

Right now, I feel angry and alone. Not knowing where I stand with her or what I feel is tearing at me. I am having a tough time focusing on my classwork.


What's new?
Not much in our M., She is writing every day. She sounds positive and tells me about her day. She asks about the boys instead of emailing them directly and asks me to pass messages to them. I've found myself simply replying to what she writes and leaving out any details about my day, feelings, or how I'm doing, even though she keeps asking. Today's email was going to be asking her not to contact me unless there was something important.

This was the most recent email from her
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Good morning are you doing well today? I am doing all right, and thank you for the email info, (son) replied back so it's all good. Did he get anything for his birthday or just a dinner? He looks so happy in the picture smile is that the only one you took? I don't have too much to say here, but I am doing a lot of thinking...in my idle time and all. I am stuck in the usual cycle of my work schedule and I have also found time to read at least a chapter of a book in the evening time. Well I have nothing of interest to share, but I'm sure that I will hear something from you so I will wrap this up and later wait for your reply. Thank you for everything and I hope you have a great day and take care.

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I also forgot to mention; I don't think she went to therapy for her trauma. She has confronted them in some ways, but I can tell you, they are absolutely unresolved.

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If you want to go no contact, then go no contact. The actions is more important than the words. Plus, if you tell her this, and then renege or your commitment, you will look weak.

Is emailing back and forth with her "working"? It seems like it has some positive for your sitch and your desired outcome.

WW's are often involved in an internal turmoil, their actions are unhealthy, and it weighs on them. She may be depressed, who knows? The biggest thing is that you don't know and you can't help. Her circus, her monkeys. Give her time and space while you work on you. Seriously. Go have fun, go learn something, be social, read more, walk through park, run, workout, something.


H 34
W 29
BD 3/12/18
Divorce Busted Spring 19

It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
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Over the last few days, I've hit a phase that is a little different. I've stopped blaming myself, but I'm also irate. I've intentionally been out of contact the last 3 days. Today I broke that because I needed info from her to file our taxes. She pointed out that she hasn't heard from me. I told her I'm angry and don't know if it will pass.

The thing that has been sticking in my mind today is that she could have retired. She wouldn't have to be at sea. She claimed that she was extending to try to pick up Chief (which I think may have been true at the time). She put no energy into that and all of it into this affair. The fact that the entire time I thought she was working so hard at trying to advance is stinging. I was pushing really hard during that time at the skills I was trying to develop to chase my dream job. When I started that, she seemed on board. I was pouring 300% into it and assuming that her long hours were her doing the same. I had been so angry I couldn't sleep.


Anyway, enough of that. I have had a crazy busy week. Being productive has helped me focus on other things. I've read a book and started another. They have been very helpful at not only stopping the negative thoughts and anger but also understanding why I am hung up on this. The negativity and bitterness are only going to beat me down. The anger and resentment will turn me into someone I have no intentions of being. One of the profound things I read, says that forgiveness has a cost. When you expect the other person to pay it, they have control over you. If you pick up the tab, you have to pay the price. Forgiveness is never free. I'm still processing some of this, but it's helping me to get out of my head and focus on the positive.

Anyway, I filed our taxes, took care of a lot of things, scheduled my classes, and got a 91 on a major test in the class I am in. Took care of the house and other general adulting to remind me that life is still here.

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Good job, reading books to help you be in better control of your thoughts. I wish we were allowed to give titles and authors, b/c another member (Pack) struggles with ongoing thoughts about his sitch, especially when he is home alone.


It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Originally Posted by sandi2
Good job, reading books to help you be in better control of your thoughts. I wish we were allowed to give titles and authors b/c another member (Pack) struggles with ongoing thoughts about his sitch, especially when he is home alone.





I can suggest that it was helpful to look for advice on the subject of betrayal but from a Christian (or at least spiritual) view. I would also add, that for books dealing with the cultivation of thought, to start with books that have been around a while and still make reading lists. For me, I also am still looping in Christian values but I've read some from other faiths or belief systems that have helpful guidance.

I wish I could PM but I don't have enough posts yet. I may try to find his thread and see if I can offer advice, or at least a word of encouragement.

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PMs are disallowed here. I’m at 2217 posts, so if they ever opened up, I’d presumably have them, unless they require Sandi-level karma (15,000+ posts)!

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Originally Posted by CWarrior
PMs are disallowed here. I’m at 2217 posts, so if they ever opened up, I’d presumably have them, unless they require Sandi-level karma (15,000+ posts)!


Ha, that makes sense. I keep seeing the notification that I have an unread PM. That's kinda evil lol.

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I was diagnosed with BPH (enlarged prostate) this week. I am waiting on lab results to find out if it's something more. Keep me in your prayers if you do that sort of thing please.

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