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Previous Thread:
Midlife Crisis and Affair with Past GF

Summary so far:
H's behavior increasingly erratic, angry, confusing, judgmental, critical, etc for several years now, but I had attributed it to the immense stress in our lives with work crisis, narcissistic XW harassment, aging parents, and other stressful things happening all at the same time. Meanwhile, my health was deteriorating and I entered menopause early and really struggled with it to where I was in a fog and pretty shutdown and exhausted. H was not helpful or sympathetic and put added pressure on me to be more active and was angered that I wasn't doing more even as I was struggling to keep working and take care of the family. My personal self-care was pretty non-existent due to the fact I had nothing left for myself.

Meanwhile, my H mentioned he had a opportunity to meet up with an ex that I knew about while we were on a vacation in another state. I, totally trusting of him, encouraged him to meet up so that he could get closure on some things that I knew he struggled with on how that relationship ended. Anyway, after that I didn't think much of it...as I'd always been trusting and never had told H he couldn't communicate with ex's, especially if they are far away.

In the fall, he suddenly told me he want a D but couldn't tell me why. I begged, pleaded, cried and did all the things you do, and asked to go to MC, and he said he would think about it. Weeks went by and I felt even worse physically, and I told him I needed to know where we stood before the holidays. He finally told me he was done and I kicked him out. Before he left, I asked if he was having an affair, and he denied it. When he left, he seemed in a hurry and not emotional about it at all. I remember thinking that was odd. He told me he would go stay with a family friend in another state. I thought this friend would be helpful in helping him see his sitch differently.

After a few days I found out that he had rented an AirBnB in a town that I knew his XGF had a daughter. It was then I realized he was having an EA, which obviously would or had become an PA. I sent him a message that I knew what he was up to and only then did he admit to the affair. After some time apart, I encouraged him to stay at our home so that I could hopefully have the opportunity to reconcile. He stayed here as well as at another friend nearby, but still maintained he did not want to work on things and wants a D. I told him that due to my principals and couldn't just D without making effort...that I took my vows seriously. So I would not "help" in the process of D if he choose to move forward with it. During all of this, I've pretty much maintained a friendly attitude (however, maybe too friendly and giving in the opinion of some of my forum friends here), so over the last couple of weeks, I've been detaching more fully and not initiating contact and not engaging as much. He is currently staying at an AirBnB but popping over to the house almost once a day.

His friends and family are as in shock as I am. No one saw this coming and he has not turned to any of them in making the decisions he has made. Our kids, his kids from previous MR, are young adults, but not really sure how to feel, so they avoid talking about it and just try to support each of us. But conceding both their bio parents have ended their marriages with infidelity, I worry about their future relationships and I worry the effects will show up later in their lives. Of course H thinks they "will be fine".

My emotional state:
Right now I do feel more detached from him and I am accepting that things will not change with him in the short term. I've discovered more lies and due to financial security concerns, I am gathering documents and plan to file for D...unless he files against me first...which process I know he has started. I am worried about my future, but I do know and feel I will be okay. I feel strongly that he is in a MLC and things with his OW will not last, but I have to protect myself in case he never snaps out of this new personality he is now. I've decided I can't be with this man who is currently showing this lack of character, integrity and with this level of selfishness.

Self care:
I've come a long way with my health and am finally feeling physically better, and many tests have shown no serious issues. Many of my symptoms were related to hormone unbalances, but also the immense stress and anxiety of the last few years was sitting on my chest, but thankfully, there doesn't seem to be any serious heart damage. I'm still doing a few more tests to be sure, but so far, all good results. I've been exercising (yoga, walks), baking, reading (self care and self help books), baths, spending time with friends, and watching shows...which help me to relax. I have also done IC and am currently switching to a new one to better dig into my feelings and my own growth versus just dealing with the initial BD and the MLC. Someone to focus on me instead. I do feel a lot of sadness and disappointment, but I also realize I am not alone (thanks to you all), that I will be okay, and that I deserve better.

Friends and family:
I've drifted away from many friendships over the last few years, as I felt like such a drag with all the stress that was happening in our lives as well as many of my friends could not relate to our life and I started to feel judged and misunderstood. I'm hoping to rebuild the ones that I think were true, and let the others go. My family has tried to be supportive, but no one really understands the feelings that I have as they have never experienced anything like this. I get a lot of advice that I feel helps 'them to feel better' about how they don't like seeing me hurting instead of what I really need in support and advice. So, I have shared less and less with most of them. I have one GF that I am very honest with, and I keep it at that. As for H's friends and family, many of them reached out in the beginning and were loving and supportive, but I've hardly heart from most of them, which is hard because I feel like I am going to lose this side of the family as well...and I have grown to love them very much. I do have a few H's friend who are really working to maintain a relationship with me and are frankly pretty angry with H.

Not sure what else to add here, but this is generally my sitch to date. I feel empowered to take my future in my hands. This is all I can control. So, one foot in front of the other...one day at a time...my journey continues...


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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Journaling: So today my old house has an issue with the plumbing. It was really hard to try to fix things myself as my H is not organized and I couldn't find any of the things I'd need to even try. So I pinged him and he came right over. He was pretty grumpy but helpful, and was frustrated as he was supposed to do a lot of business work over the weekend, and now this. It made me realize how often he has left things undone or uncared for, and then is angry when things don't go right. He spent most of the day on it and I left him to it. I stayed friendly but detached and didn't let his grumpy attitude get to me. In fact, I'm not feeling great today and took a long nap this afternoon.

He repeated what I'd heard a million times "work is so busy right now and I just don't have the bandwidth to deal with this this week". I thought back to all the times I did all I could (sacrificing my own self care) to allow him time to do work after hours, thinking I was supporting him, and he was off on his computer having an EA. So, I'm not feeling very sorry for him at the moment. Of course, if he can't resolve the issue tomorrow, he wants me to find somewhere else to do laundry and shower (during a pandemic) so he can put off fixing it all week. While he is happy in his AirBnB. I think I will call someone if he can't resolve it tomorrow. Definitely want it fixed before our son comes over next weekend.

I'm sure he will use this same excuse about work to postpone signing the agreement too. I'm expecting it. He mentioned he wants to discuss our sitch (aka the D). So I'm not exactly sure how to respond as I don't want to discuss it until I am ready to file. I think he also feels we can just be friends, and I don't think I can do that, and I'm not sure if that is something I should make clear verbally or just show it during the D process? I can be friendly and detached as we have the kids and work stuff to consider, but anything more than that I feel is not possible, considering the lies and betrayal.

How do the WAS assume a friendship after betrayal is even possible? Are they so self-centered that they do not see anything from the viewport of the LBS? There is still a part of me that wants to be the lighthouse and stand for him, but there is other parts of my heart and brain that are telling me that is not what I should do. How do I know if it's worth doing? How do you tell the MLCer apart from the person you married, and if they have changed for good? Or if it was all a mirage in the first place and maybe they were never the person you thought they were? If I move on post divorce with finding someone new, how do I know I won't pick a bad apple again? How do I trust my judgement? So much was hidden from me, so how can I be sure the next time? These are the thoughts and fears that I am dealing with lately.


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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Quote
How do the WAS assume a friendship after betrayal is even possible? Are they so self-centered that they do not see anything from the viewport of the LBS?


Yes, most of them are too self-centered to see anything from the viewpoint of the LBS. Your H is not going to be compassionate to your needs. Therefore, you need to be responsible for getting things done........like plumbing issues, etc. I don't know your financial situation, but if it were me, I would hire a professional plumber and give the bill to your H. Unless there has been some type of legal agreement about managing home repairs, I think he'll have to pay for it.

I'm going to give you a viewpoint from the other side of the street, so to speak. Although you may have seen your loss of self care as some type of sacrifice for your M, your H doesn't have what it takes to appreciate it. He only sees the outer shell of you. If you have let your health and physical appearance go, then it will anger him........if anything. Men are huge visible beings, as you probably know. They had rather see the house a little messy and the W looking good. As women, we often see it as being selfish to take time to keep up our appearances, rather than getting all the work done. However, I've seen this same scenario play out when the W becomes single again, and suddenly, she find the time to look her best.

Not many WAH's come to the board, but the success stories I've read where the H reconciled had a common denominator. Want to hear it? It's when the LBW stopped turning to him to do jobs around the house. It's when she started operating more independently from him. It's when she made big changes to her everyday self care. When she stops chasing after him and she starts having pride in herself, it shines through........and it makes more of an impact on him for what he's gave up. If you call him every time you need him to do something.........he sees it as pressure, and that old word we women hate.......a nag. I once read when a W repeats something one time, her H sees her as nagging. shocked I suggest you make it very clear in the "agreement" who pays for what.

You said he spent part time at home. Is he still in an affair? If so, then doesn't that compromise your values? Are you sleeping with him? If so, then you are at risk, physically of STD, and at risk emotionally........which could be more devastating.

I do believe the dynamics of a WAH and that of a WAW are different, b/c the male & female think differently and do not operate the same. However, that's not to say you shouldn't GAL, detach, and set goals, 180's, etc.

Quote
I think he also feels we can just be friends, and I don't think I can do that, and I'm not sure if that is something I should make clear verbally or just show it during the D process? I can be friendly and detached as we have the kids and work stuff to consider, but anything more than that I feel is not possible, considering the lies and betrayal.


IMHO, the word "friends" is over-rated when it comes to someone who has betrayed you at the highest level. Especially, if that person is currently cheating. I think there is a big difference in conducting yourself in a friend-ly manner, and being their BFF. See what I mean? You can show class, poise, & grace, without being chums with him. If there is ever to be a friendship between you and H, it would have to come after he stops cheating and stops seeing you as his source of unhappiness. I just don't think you can do while going through this part of the sitch, but that's just my opinion.

I want to encourage you to stop thinking and acting as if he is still your devoted H. I'm sure that's tough, but it will help break the habit of immediately turning to him whenever something is needed. If you have always depended on him for most things, it may be difficult at first, but you'll quickly like being in charge of your own environment.

I would tell every single LBW out there to learn how to have spunk! You can be spunky and have class.


Last edited by sandi2; 02/21/21 02:19 PM.

It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
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Hi E,

First, just wanted to say that what you wrote about the connection and kindness of strangers really resonated. This is such a beautiful community. (((Elbereth)))

A couple thoughts for you. one, on the being friends-- I made it crystal clear to my H that we would NOT be friends in a D. This is one thing I stuck with from day one (also because I was infuriated with his ridiculous D fantasy where we'd stay BFFs and eat dinner as a family every night but then he'd go off to sleep with AP). I think you have to be careful that it isn't interpreted as a threat. I probably wouldn't bring it up. But when you start talking together about the future and what the D will look like, I'd definitely nip any of those fantasy BFF D scenarios in the bud. No, I don't want to co-own this house with you. No, I don't want to have any ties with you. No, we won't be friends. Friends don't lie and betray each other. I don't have room for a "friend" like that in my life. Etc.

I also agree with Sandi 100% about taking care of the house stuff on your own. Not even to show him anything (though I will say this did also have an effect in my R) but because you are fully capable of dealing with anything that comes your way, including plumbing issues, and who needs that deadbeat?? You can handle this all yourself. you don't need him. (And, he was not even able to handle it anyway... sounds like it is time to call in the professionals for sure.)

Good luck! smile


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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Hi E,

I have one comment, right now as I am reading your sitch and getting caught up: you are doing great!

I’ve been on this merry go round with IHS for almost two years.

You’ve got this, and I will be back after I’m caught up.

PLC

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Originally Posted by Sandi2
Yes, most of them are too self-centered to see anything from the viewpoint of the LBS. Your H is not going to be compassionate to your needs. Therefore, you need to be responsible for getting things done........like plumbing issues, etc. I don't know your financial situation, but if it were me, I would hire a professional plumber and give the bill to your H. Unless there has been some type of legal agreement about managing home repairs, I think he'll have to pay for it.

I'm going to give you a viewpoint from the other side of the street, so to speak. Although you may have seen your loss of self care as some type of sacrifice for your M, your H doesn't have what it takes to appreciate it. He only sees the outer shell of you. If you have let your health and physical appearance go, then it will anger him........if anything. Men are huge visible beings, as you probably know. They had rather see the house a little messy and the W looking good. As women, we often see it as being selfish to take time to keep up our appearances, rather than getting all the work done. However, I've seen this same scenario play out when the W becomes single again, and suddenly, she find the time to look her best.

Not many WAH's come to the board, but the success stories I've read where the H reconciled had a common denominator. Want to hear it? It's when the LBW stopped turning to him to do jobs around the house. It's when she started operating more independently from him. It's when she made big changes to her everyday self care. When she stops chasing after him and she starts having pride in herself, it shines through........and it makes more of an impact on him for what he's gave up. If you call him every time you need him to do something.........he sees it as pressure, and that old word we women hate.......a nag. I once read when a W repeats something one time, her H sees her as nagging. shocked I suggest you make it very clear in the "agreement" who pays for what.

You said he spent part time at home. Is he still in an affair? If so, then doesn't that compromise your values? Are you sleeping with him? If so, then you are at risk, physically of STD, and at risk emotionally........which could be more devastating.


Sandi, thanks for your note. I agree with you, and will start to just hire people to do stuff. He just starts and doesn't finish things lately anyway, and I can see what you mean that it doesn't help the situation. Thank you for the 2x4 on that one. As for my appearance and health, it did slide a bit as I went through menopause. I gained some weight and I was pretty exhausted so I didn't fix myself up as much as I used to. I'm sure it played a role. I finally got healthier and that helped me. So I'm on the mend and will not allow my appearance to be affected again in the future. And yes, I made everyone and everything else a priority but myself. I won't be doing that again either.

He did spend part time in the home and lived in the basement when he did. I've not been intimate with him since the BD. I don't believe he had been with the OW before the BD but I have no proof. I agree that it would put me at risk for STD, as well as I am not sure I could emotionally be intimate with someone who is in an affair. So, that's where that has been.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
IMHO, the word "friends" is over-rated when it comes to someone who has betrayed you at the highest level. Especially, if that person is currently cheating. I think there is a big difference in conducting yourself in a friend-ly manner, and being their BFF. See what I mean? You can show class, poise, & grace, without being chums with him. If there is ever to be a friendship between you and H, it would have to come after he stops cheating and stops seeing you as his source of unhappiness. I just don't think you can do while going through this part of the sitch, but that's just my opinion.


I'm in total agreement. And that is why I feel I could not be 'friends' in the way HE thinks it would be. I had been friendlier as that was suggested by my marriage program as a way to try to reconnect and reconcile, but now that I feel that I want a D, I have backed off on the jokes, reaching out, extra friendly attitude...and well, he's noticed. Today he confronted me and asked if I was mad at him for something he'd done recently and was confused at how I've been less responsive (minimal text, not replying immediately to texts), etc. I told him, "you are having an affair with another woman and we are most likely headed to divorce so I am finding very hard to be friends with you". I told him "I will not be like your crazy XW, and I will work with you on maintaining things with the kids, etc, but I am struggling with being a friend to you with this situation as it is". We discussed some work stuff (he vented but it was stuff that also impacted me so I listened), and then I left the room while he stayed in the kitchen eating his lunch alone. So, I said it, I've made it clear we won't be friends, and I left the convo and the room first. And yes I will be classy! ha!

Originally Posted by May22
A couple thoughts for you. one, on the being friends-- I made it crystal clear to my H that we would NOT be friends in a D. This is one thing I stuck with from day one (also because I was infuriated with his ridiculous D fantasy where we'd stay BFFs and eat dinner as a family every night but then he'd go off to sleep with AP). I think you have to be careful that it isn't interpreted as a threat. I probably wouldn't bring it up. But when you start talking together about the future and what the D will look like, I'd definitely nip any of those fantasy BFF D scenarios in the bud. No, I don't want to co-own this house with you. No, I don't want to have any ties with you. No, we won't be friends. Friends don't lie and betray each other. I don't have room for a "friend" like that in my life. Etc.


May, I think there will be more convo on this in the future, but I felt that the way it was said it was not a threat, so it came up in the right way just as you described. I feel you... I feel the same.

PLC, thanks for popping by and the encouragement!

And I asked about the agreement again and he wanted a digital copy to mark up. Ugh. Still seems open to it, but not sure what to expect or when he will agree to sign it.


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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Oh boy. I'm shaking. My H came by earlier to swap vehicles and when I went to go shopping there was a couple of things on the passenger seat. I thought, "these are odd things for S18 to have" and started to look through them. I found a love note from the OW. I started shaking and just wanted to scream. I texted my H that I found this stuff and it doesn't feel good at all. I said some harsh things by text and left it at that. Then I continued my shopping trip while wanting to puke and shaking the entire time.

After being home a bit, I hear someone come over and it's the H. He feels bad and wants to talk about it. I try not to but I'm still so upset, and I've had wine, and I just am not nice...I'm raging. H tries all kinds of maneuvers, like "we were not happy, so why do you want to be with me", and "what can I do to make you feel better" and "I don't want to hurt you" and "why have you been so nice and are not so nice now"? And you were the one who wanted to postpone the D. I said "forgive me for wanting to process my life blowing up". I told him how he has no integrity or character, I asked if he had other affairs thought the years, I questioned why he's questioning me about how I've been acting when I didn't deserve this, etc. I told him this was his choice, and had nothing to do with my actions. He thinks it wasn't an affair and I had to point out that anything behind my back is an affair. Really? WTF? I was very angry. I didn't cry, but I'm on the verge now. I know he didn't leave the stuff in the car for me to find, but I've not really verbalized anything to him since this happened beyond a few initial things after the BD.

I've really said very little about how I actually feel, and how I realized he is not the person I thought he was. I know this is probably not what I should have done as part of DBing, but I couldn't help myself. I'm just so angry and sad. I told him I had hoped we could reconcile, but now I'm done fighting for us. So much for holding it together before I could serve him D first.


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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(((Elbereth)))

That's awful. I'm so sorry. It would have taken a saint to not respond. You deserve to be angry.

Sending hugs.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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Thanks May, I'm sure most of it meant nothing to him and that even makes me angrier. He really has no idea of how his behavior affects everyone, not just me. I think he was taken aback by my response. I'm a very calm and level-headed person. So for me to essentially flip out on him took him off guard. But the ways he tried to justify himself shows how little he gets it. My BFF has been encouraging me to speak out to him and I've been telling her how it really means nothing unless I'm heard. And I don't feel heard by him. So to me, it didn't help me feel any better. I don't feel that lashing out to him is what I need to feel better. Focusing on myself and on relationships that matter is what will help me feel better. I will never feel better about what he has done. There is nothing that will help heal that feeling unless he hears it and feels it. And least in regards to my relationship with him. Does that make any sense at all? And as long as he can justify his behavior, be in his fog, feel that what he is doing is right, etc, it won't help me feel any better. It's up to me to find something to replace that elsewhere. I can't fix it.

I had a good cry after he left and had a good call with my BFF. I know I will be okay, but it sucked. And it sucked the energy out of my night when I could have been focusing on my S18, my growth, or something else that is actually productive towards my future.

Thanks for the hugs though... I appreciate it so much!


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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Elbereth,

I can relate, I know that when I found things (usually I was snooping though, I didn't just stumble across it) it was very difficult not to confront. Most of us in the thick of our sitches get spinning when we find evidence of the OP. You're right, it wasn't the right way to approach it from a DBing standpoint, but very few people can control their emotions enough to just keep on DBing. Detachment is about the not emotionally reacting, but detachment is not a switch you throw on and suddenly you're detached. It is a process that takes time and effort to finally arrive at a high enough level to remain even through incidents like this.

I say all that to say don't beat yourself up too much. The problem with confrontation is that it rarely goes the way you would like it to. But water under the bridge, just keep working and focusing on you! Better days are ahead.


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Originally Posted by SteveLW
I can relate, I know that when I found things (usually I was snooping though, I didn't just stumble across it) it was very difficult not to confront. Most of us in the thick of our sitches get spinning when we find evidence of the OP. You're right, it wasn't the right way to approach it from a DBing standpoint, but very few people can control their emotions enough to just keep on DBing. Detachment is about the not emotionally reacting, but detachment is not a switch you throw on and suddenly you're detached. It is a process that takes time and effort to finally arrive at a high enough level to remain even through incidents like this.

I say all that to say don't beat yourself up too much. The problem with confrontation is that it rarely goes the way you would like it to. But water under the bridge, just keep working and focusing on you! Better days are ahead.


Thanks Steve, that helps. I dwelled all night on how I reacted. I have been so good about keeping it together in front of him and not being emotional. I had felt pretty detached towards him otherwise. You are right, seeing the evidence and holding it in my hand is a different level, and I obviously have a way to still go to being detached in that way. I was actually shocked he even came over to speak to me about it in person. That's probably why I lost it. I wasn't prepared emotionally at all for that. And, I'm trying to not read too much into his actions or reactions. There is nothing about going through this type of sitch that makes any sense to a logical person, which I am.

Better days ARE ahead. I do know that. Thank you for saying so, I did need to hear it today.


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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Elbereth,

You have such a healthy POV on all of this! I love the focus on yourself and the relationships that matter, rather than this person who is living in a fantasyland. He IS unable to hear or understand what it is you are saying or feeling, because if he let himself do this, it would really F with all the pretty pictures he's drawn of himself and his A. You are right in that he cannot hear you and there is no point in trying. I wouldn't worry about your response, though. It happened and you move on. Now you know how it feels, it was probably healthy to get some of that out regardless of how it impacted him (or not), and you know it is fruitless and you have better ways to spend your time and energy.

That being said, I also don't think it was necessarily a bad thing for him to get a little whiff of ... wait... we won't be BFFs when this is all over? It may or may not have any effect, but I seriously doubt it harmed anything for you.

Hope you have some great plans for the weekend!


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Hello, and thanks May.

Originally Posted by May22
You have such a healthy POV on all of this! I love the focus on yourself and the relationships that matter, rather than this person who is living in a fantasyland. He IS unable to hear or understand what it is you are saying or feeling, because if he let himself do this, it would really F with all the pretty pictures he's drawn of himself and his A. You are right in that he cannot hear you and there is no point in trying. I wouldn't worry about your response, though. It happened and you move on. Now you know how it feels, it was probably healthy to get some of that out regardless of how it impacted him (or not), and you know it is fruitless and you have better ways to spend your time and energy.

That being said, I also don't think it was necessarily a bad thing for him to get a little whiff of ... wait... we won't be BFFs when this is all over? It may or may not have any effect, but I seriously doubt it harmed anything for you.


Well I do agree that I think it did some 'good' in the sense that it is Fing with his fantasy. H popped over on the weekend and seemed a bit cautious of me, which is understandable as I was raging mad the last time we spoke. S18 was there, so I didn't make a fuss and was friendly and tried to act normal...whatever that is right now. Then today, during working hours, he pinged me about a question I really didn't have to be the one to answer. I responded, it is work stuff after all, and then he added some other color (trying to show support over a big change that affects me), and I responded but very little. Hell, he already knows what is going on and the impacts. Then he finished with something personal and I didn't respond.

Later tonight, he sends a message that he needs to stop over to switch vehicles and asks if S18 is home. I tell him no, and he asked if he can still come. I said it didn't matter to me, but found it odd that he wanted to bring up S18, and then not care if he sees him. He came over and I just kept doing what I was doing even though I said hello. He made effort to make small talk, again talking to me about some work stuff and some personal stuff. I asked again if he had reviewed the agreement. He said he hadn't and that he would tonight. He sent a message to me tonight that he's sorry for all the stress, that he will be fair to me and that he hates what is going on and he's crying about it. And I'm supposed to feel bad that he feels bad?

It's so confusing. And I'm trying not to read too much into it. I also stopped wearing my ring, and he probably noticed that too. Sorry? He hates this? He's definitely feeling guilt, but it's only probably because I've been turning my emotional back on him...so I am not being hopeful, and not responding to his message. What could I say anyway? Why should I help him feel better when he's been a lying, cheating, and taking money from me?

I spoke to a friend of his also this weekend...and he's pretty much done with him. He feels that his first M ended due to some of his characteristics and selfishness. That he had thought that it may have been more of the XW issues, but now realizes that she may have been driven to cheating from his selfishness. I really don't know if that is true, but I do wonder now what she must have gone through. Even if she is crazy. Really makes me wonder if my MR was doomed anyway, and that he is really flawed and this part of him always existed but was hidden from me. All kinds of things run through my head right now. I feel like I should get the D regardless, as I don't know what to think or believe, and if I can't trust him, I need to protect myself. He says he will be "fair to me", but how can you believe a someone who is a liar?

Anyway, now I am rambling. On a good note, I am going to be taking some courses to better understand financial investing and I'm continuing to put effort into myself and my career and my kids. I've been listening to podcasts, taking long baths and long walks. Also spent some time with my BFF on Saturday. So, other than the crap with H, it was a pretty nice weekend. I hope yours was too! smile


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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Wow! You sound so effing strong!

Good on you. You’ll still have good and bad days. I admire your resilience and apathy towards him and anything he says or does.

You are doing just wonderfully Elbereth. Keep it up!

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Originally Posted by Kind18
Wow! You sound so effing strong!

Good on you. You’ll still have good and bad days. I admire your resilience and apathy towards him and anything he says or does.

You are doing just wonderfully Elbereth. Keep it up!


Kind18, not so sure about that! But I'm working on it! smile


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
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Ah, the pursuer-distancer dynamic at work! Confusing, isn't it?

My main advice: DO NOT CHANGE WHAT YOU ARE DOING. it is working. Both helping you to detach by not engaging with him and in letting him have a small dose of reality of what he is doing. But do not read into his behavior at all. Wall that off and continue to focus on you and what is best for you.

I hate the term "Plan B" but I do think there is a bit of the worry in him right now that he'll lose you. You've been his person now for a long time, and I'm sure there is some level of security in feeling that you don't want a D and will still be there for him in case this A fails. One of the problems in my sitch, I think, that dragged out limbo for so long was that I had been adamant that I was against a D because of the children-- something I'd communicated to him for months before I found DB. I made this so crystal clear to my H that even as I told him over and over if he left we would not be friends, I think a big part of him knew that as long as he didn't actually leave I would keep the door open. But it was the times when I was actually, authentically done, the first time pulling together financial records and the second time about to pick up the phone and call my mom to let her know what was going on, that he freaked out and started to backtrack big time.

One of the main rules of DBing is: do what works. I would continue your path. Do not let him distract you with his guilt or kindness or whatever mess is going on in his head.

Also-- there is zero logical reason to trust him right now. Here as well-- continue your path. He will show you with his actions if he may in the future be trustworthy again, but his recent behavior has shown he is not trustworthy. And I do not for one second feel sorry for him that he is now feeling a twinge of guilt. Yes, I'm sure it is not a fun experience to start to realize that your behaviors are perhaps not in alignment with what you thought were your values, since most people don't like to think of themselves as lying cheaters who steal from their wives. As I told my H many times-- if you don't want to be a liar, don't lie. If you don't want to be a cheater, don't cheat. (And now he is dealing with the extended consequences of this too... unfortunately, just stopping lying doesn't mean people will trust you immediately.) Even if your H becomes a trustworthy person, you will need to see a lot of consistent, trustworthy behavior before you can start to trust him again. That won't happen between now and signing your post-nup. So stay strong and continue your path.

I know it all $ucks. You didn't ask for this and you didn't deserve it. But you got this. You know you do.

xx May


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
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Dear Elbereth,

I agree with Kind that you sound very strong to be able to interact with him the way you are, and with May that staying the course you're on with the post-nuptials and divorce sounds smart--it protects you while revealing his doubts. I'm sorry you're going through this. It's shocking this can happen even to the best people. I believe in you as someone who will come out on top no matter what. ((Hugs))

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Hello friends. I've been down in the dumps the last few days. I think the confrontation just made me more sad but I am not really sure why. Maybe it's because I had been so good about keeping the focus on myself and the confrontation put him and his AP in my face again. Maybe it's just because I find anger exhausting. I'm not really sure.

Originally Posted by May22
Ah, the pursuer-distancer dynamic at work! Confusing, isn't it?

My main advice: DO NOT CHANGE WHAT YOU ARE DOING. it is working. Both helping you to detach by not engaging with him and in letting him have a small dose of reality of what he is doing. But do not read into his behavior at all. Wall that off and continue to focus on you and what is best for you.

I hate the term "Plan B" but I do think there is a bit of the worry in him right now that he'll lose you. You've been his person now for a long time, and I'm sure there is some level of security in feeling that you don't want a D and will still be there for him in case this A fails.


It is confusing, but I figured it would occur, so it's not like I was surprised. He's actually made effort to text me at least once each day about little things. So far no contact yet today, but the day's not over yet. Ha! I do agree with what you say above May. And I hate the term "Plan B" too, but feel that's very true to where I stand at the moment, and it's not good enough. Even though I was a bit down in the dumps the last few days, I did do things for me, like take the entire day off from work yesterday to just walk on the beach. I definitely want him to feel like his Plan B is at risk and to feel less security, but I don't want to assume that's what he's feeling. He's had opportunity to change his actions, and so far he's not, so I just want to protect myself and move forward like he will never come back. I must assume that's what will happen.

Originally Posted by May22
Also-- there is zero logical reason to trust him right now. Here as well-- continue your path. He will show you with his actions if he may in the future be trustworthy again, but his recent behavior has shown he is not trustworthy. And I do not for one second feel sorry for him that he is now feeling a twinge of guilt. Yes, I'm sure it is not a fun experience to start to realize that your behaviors are perhaps not in alignment with what you thought were your values, since most people don't like to think of themselves as lying cheaters who steal from their wives. As I told my H many times-- if you don't want to be a liar, don't lie. If you don't want to be a cheater, don't cheat. (And now he is dealing with the extended consequences of this too... unfortunately, just stopping lying doesn't mean people will trust you immediately.) Even if your H becomes a trustworthy person, you will need to see a lot of consistent, trustworthy behavior before you can start to trust him again. That won't happen between now and signing your post-nup. So stay strong and continue your path.

I know it all $ucks. You didn't ask for this and you didn't deserve it. But you got this. You know you do.


I'm in total agreement. I'm moving forward with the Agreement and the D...no matter what he says or does in the short term. The process will take time anyway, so if I see that something is changing, I can take my time to see it and consider it. I don't trust a thing he's saying/doing and I don't trust he'll be fair to me. So I'm on guard for sure.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
I agree with Kind that you sound very strong to be able to interact with him the way you are, and with May that staying the course you're on with the post-nuptials and divorce sounds smart--it protects you while revealing his doubts. I'm sorry you're going through this. It's shocking this can happen even to the best people. I believe in you as someone who will come out on top no matter what. ((Hugs))


Maybe I'm just sad as I'm passed the denial stage and I'm just sad and confused by how bad of a person he is right now. I don't know. I believed in him so much (as a person with integrity). I feel I wasted ten years of my life on a lie. Sort of makes me anxious to get it all over with so I can be free to move forward. I know I will be fine. I know I can make a future for myself and it will be a good one. But I'm still sad that the future I thought I had was snatched away from me in such a cruel and deceitful way. But, here we all are. I'm not alone, and that helps even though I'm angry and sad that any of us have to experience situations like this. Life is hard enough right? You'd think your chosen partners would be on your team.


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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Hi Elbereth,

I wish you weren't down in the dumps, but the positive aspect of being in the dumps is that it offers you are wonderful perspective - sunny days are more special after a rainy day! Now, I know this may be annoying and overly optimistic, but it may work for you too.

Things are not going to plan, but things are also what we make of them. It's awesome that you live so close to a beach, I hope it is a warm one.


H 34
W 29
BD 3/12/18
Divorce Busted Spring 19

It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
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ovrrnbw, you are so right...and it's the right perspective and NOT annoying! smile

I'm doing my best to make each day a good one and to focus on me and my future. I'm a bit down lately, but hopeful.


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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H has been staying at another place this past month. I just found out he’s coming back to stay at the house for the week. This I’ll be the first I’ve been around him more than 5 minutes since the love letter episode. I’m not really sure how I feel about it. It’s cheaper financially and it gives him more time with our son. But I don’t want him to feel too comfortable like it’s cake eating either. I do plan to get out of the house as much as I can during the week.

But also hoping I can use this time to get the agreement finalized. But it also might be when he serves me D papers as he mentioned legal stuff coming. But it wasn’t clear if it’s just his comments to the agreement. I’ve been in the dumps lately so it’s time I fake it till I make it and be happy and GALing as much as possible this week. I definitely need to snap out of this funk I’ve been in.

Any suggestions? Should I avoid time with him like walks etc? Should I try to be in other rooms, etc? Our last convo was how I don’t want to be ‘friends’ but I don’t want to be enemies either, especially with son here and upcoming D process.

Feeling a bit out of sorts about it.


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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Hello El

I appreciated your visit on my thread and have finally caught up on your’s.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
I feel strongly that he is in a MLC and things with his OW will not last, but I have to protect myself in case he never snaps out of this new personality he is now. I've decided I can't be with this man who is currently showing this lack of character, integrity and with this level of selfishness.

Whether it is MLC or not, your actions are similar. Detach, focus on you, let go, find indifference, find yourself, strengthen your core values, unwind indifference, understand, empathize, accept, and forgive. (Just a brief summary. smile )

MLC has some signposts which set it apart from other spousal personality issues and cheating. Confusion is a big one. As well as a profound consuming depression.

The depression is usually hidden deep within the MLCer. Most do not lift their veil or facade to let anyone, including themselves, see the hurt, pain, and torment from long ago buried trauma(s).

These people are in an emotional crisis, the cause of which happened long before we ever came upon the scene. Their path and pain has nothing to do with us. The MLCer is completely ruled and driven by their emotions. Everything is based upon their emotions. Everything.

They are running from themselves, and don’t realize it. They project their pain upon us, the loving spouse. They blame us. They justify wildly. Their path is irrational. Nothing you say or do will alter it. At best your efforts will be neutral; more likely they would just prolong the MLCer’s journey.

Understand they are driven to run. They cannot handle what they are feeling. Something was buried when they were young and it emotionally stunted them, and they need to face it and grow up from there. Things buried alive always come back to haunt.

The running is the longest stage and our first real in our face look at their new life. Bomb drop is the start for the LBS; the MLCer’s slipping away started silently, 18-24 months earlier. The MLCer becomes the opposite of who they once were. They are driven to regain their lost youth, and in the process become lost souls.

MLC is a horrible painful existence. It is staggering how many turn to affairs, drugs, illicit or illegal actives, spend enormous sums of money, and many other such traits. Most become terrible parents. They absolutely believe their crafted narrative, and will expend incredible amounts of energies to maintain their fantasy reality. There is a commonality among those in an emotional crisis. No two are the same, yet there is plenty of overlap.

MLC lasts many years. I sincerely hope that your H is not in MLC. Unfortunately, his behaviour seems to fit. This is not an easy path for the LBS, and the path for the MLCer I would not curse upon anyone.

Their awakening is not guaranteed. If it does happen it will not be a snap out of the personality they now exhibit. It will be a quiet scared whisper of doubt. A doubt of their very existence. Their crafted reality tumbles to sand as they scramble in a futile effort in continual rebuilding and refortifying. They run from themselves.

The LBS gives time and space, for those will taken regardless. We step aside, for anyone; kids, parents, friends, family, clergy, anyone; blocking a MLCer’s path will be mowed down. With the LBS out of the MLCer’s picture, hopefully they start to realize that they are still unhappy and that we haven’t been involved for quite sometime...so maybe my unhappiness isn’t my spouse’s fault. And then they turn their attention inward. Stop running and grow. As I said, hopefully.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
There is still a part of me that wants to be the lighthouse and stand for him, but there is other parts of my heart and brain that are telling me that is not what I should do. How do I know if it's worth doing? How do you tell the MLCer apart from the person you married, and if they have changed for good? Or if it was all a mirage in the first place and maybe they were never the person you thought they were? If I move on post divorce with finding someone new, how do I know I won't pick a bad apple again? How do I trust my judgement? So much was hidden from me, so how can I be sure the next time? These are the thoughts and fears that I am dealing with lately.

Asking questions is common and healthy. We all need a certain amount of understanding to detach and let go. This is a very counterintuitive process, especially with a MLCer.

Everything you do - do it for you. Not to win back H. Not to punish, nor coerce, not to manipulate their path.

Become a lighthouse for yourself. Stand for you. I’ve spoken plenty about these tenets on my threads. We find our values and convictions. We strengthen those which serve us, craft those which we aspire to, and alter or discard those which serve us not.

Please do not fret over the lack of answers to you questions. You are starting out, stay the course. Be patient answers are coming, they are counterintuitive, and I guarantee you will be amazed at what you discover.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
I'm sure he will use this same excuse about work to postpone signing the agreement too. I'm expecting it.

Do be careful with expectations. Unmet expectations turn to resentments. A MLCer will not met expectations - ever. Keep your expectations at zero.

Hope is ok. Hope is timeless. An expectation is hope with a deadline or timeframe. A deadline does just that - kills hope, and turns it into an expectation.

You mentioned a deadline of one year that you’d stand. Please do remove that constriction. You have no foretelling nor schedule of your healing, you may require more time. H will require more. A future reconciliation would definitely require more.

I am at 3 years six months. My XW is still lost. She blew up her life at Thanksgiving. Threw the kids away, like they were old clothes, right there at the dinner table, and ran off with OM. Right after eating the pumpkin pie, there was bomb drop in front of my parents and kids. In three hours XW left with OM, I suddenly lived alone, me and my kids were abandoned, and I become a single Dad with sole custody. None of us saw it coming.

My loving wife was gone, and today is still a very lost soul. You’d be amazed at the woman and Mom she was. MLC is a horrible torment which consumes.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
Maybe I'm just sad as I'm passed the denial stage and I'm just sad and confused by how bad of a person he is right now. I don't know. I believed in him so much (as a person with integrity). I feel I wasted ten years of my life on a lie. Sort of makes me anxious to get it all over with so I can be free to move forward. I know I will be fine. I know I can make a future for myself and it will be a good one. But I'm still sad that the future I thought I had was snatched away from me in such a cruel and deceitful way.

(((Hugs)))

The stages of grief. Denial is the first stage. Everything else is nonlinear. We will traverse our grief as we need to. We will repeat certain stages a few times.

Denial is a necessary protective mechanism of our mind. It blocks that which would destroy us until we are able to start to process it. That initial shock and zombie-like feeling is us in denial. Whatever we are denying is just that, denied from our conscious self.

Anger, depression, bargaining all happen in various orders for various parts and pieces of your loss as they are revealed to your mind. Your sad and confused current state is perfectly fine and normal.

The stages of grief lead to acceptance, which is basically emotional understanding. At that point one is no longer depressed, or angry, or sad, or attempting to return their life to normal. They accept.

A word on emotions and feelings.

Feelings are real. Feeling are temporary. I know and empathize on how “forever” they feel. Have faith. Feeling are fleeting when they are not reinforced.

An example of the fleeting-ness of feelings:

Smile. Right now.

See how you feel happier.

Now frown. Furl your brow. Really push your lips down.

See how you instantly changed from happy to upset.

Feelings are fleeting!

And are easily influenced by thoughts and actions, especially those of our spouse. That is why detachment is the single best thing you can do. Find detachment and let go. For if you don’t you will be dragged around.

Do not make decisions based upon feelings. Feelings change, and then so does the reason for the decision. Utilize logic and reason.

Further down your path, after ensuring your beliefs and values are those that you want, follow your values. Beliefs are slow to change and make excellent headings in concert with logical reasoning. However, for the moment, your values are a bit skewed - as counterintuitive or untrue as that feels. Have faith in the path, and the kind and compassionate folks who have walked before.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
Any suggestions? Should I avoid time with him like walks etc? Should I try to be in other rooms, etc? Our last convo was how I don’t want to be ‘friends’ but I don’t want to be enemies either, especially with son here and upcoming D process.

Feeling a bit out of sorts about it.

It’s perfectly fine to feel out of sorts. Those are feelings, they are real, remember to treat them as such.

When you interact with H be kind and cordial. Friendly not friends. For you are not friends. My friends do not treat me that way.

I know. Kind of goes against the grain doesn’t it? Counterintuitive. It will feel wrong. That is your beliefs. It is going to take time for them to catch up to current events. You deep inside believe in the old H - perfectly normal and fine. Now, you work towards compassion and understanding while altering your core views to the new reality. This is part of finding acceptance.

I believe your H is within MLC, as such my suggestions speak to that. And to note, all mine and everyone’s suggestions have you in the fore. You my dear are the most important person in all of this.

El, H is with another woman. Yes, avoid going on walks with him. Do not remain in the same room. He is not living there. He is just visiting, and he is not a friend. I understand and empathize with the fact that you cannot prevent him entering the house. Do not be disrespected. Place boundaries when required.

I get it, you do not want to be enemies. H will not listen and will define you as he “needs” to. He will make you the enemy if he requires that. He is literally driven to run and you are going to get the blame. It is not fair. Not at all.

Also realize he will define you as friend if that suits his emotional need. Stick to your path. Your forearmed thoughts and questions are good and will help you see clearly.

Believe nothing he says and only half of what he does.

You cannot fix him, for you did not break him.

D


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Originally Posted by Elbereth
H has been staying at another place this past month. I just found out he’s coming back to stay at the house for the week. This I’ll be the first I’ve been around him more than 5 minutes since the love letter episode. I’m not really sure how I feel about it. It’s cheaper financially and it gives him more time with our son. But I don’t want him to feel too comfortable like it’s cake eating either. I do plan to get out of the house as much as I can during the week.

But also hoping I can use this time to get the agreement finalized. But it also might be when he serves me D papers as he mentioned legal stuff coming. But it wasn’t clear if it’s just his comments to the agreement. I’ve been in the dumps lately so it’s time I fake it till I make it and be happy and GALing as much as possible this week. I definitely need to snap out of this funk I’ve been in.

Any suggestions? Should I avoid time with him like walks etc? Should I try to be in other rooms, etc? Our last convo was how I don’t want to be ‘friends’ but I don’t want to be enemies either, especially with son here and upcoming D process.

Feeling a bit out of sorts about it.

Hi El,

I know that him coming back, even if just for a week, can add pressure. Add in the fact that he may or may not serve you and you're probably halfway to the nut house. Your best remedy is to let go of that and focus your mental energy into something productive. Remember, everything is a matter of judgment. You can take this positively or negatively and to whatever degree you choose.

If you can find some activity, work, house project, social life, etc (not sure how things are near you) that would be great! I would be getting out of the house as well. If nothing else, take a book to a park and hang out. That was one of my go-to's and my W often wanted to know where I had been. Reread the detachment and validation threads every day this week and you will be well on your way to the "not friends but not enemies" position that you seek.


H 34
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BD 3/12/18
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It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
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Hi Elbereth,

Wow--that doesn't sound fun. Who are they to you now? To me, he sounds like someone renting a room in the same house. The last time I was in that situation, I think I said "Hi!" or "Goodnight!" when appropriate, once shared my laundry detergent, and once borrowed his dish detergent. If that's your view, I would set boundaries on where he sleeps (not next to you), whether you cook for him (no), whether you do his laundry (no), etc. You are no longer partners, and he's not acting remotely like a friend. Being busy or away sounds good. None of this precludes being friendly! I was friendly with that renter. If it gets intolerable, don't forget the safety valve of staying at a hotel (shared assets!) with your son.

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Hi Elbereth,

First of all, can I say how sorry I am that you are here? But as they all say, this is a supportive place to be while you navigate this process.

My heart goes out to you in anticipation of H's return to the house. Live-in separation was the hardest thing I think I have ever endured, but it lasted months for me and my H did a lot of spewing and monstering. DnJ, CW and Over gave you some fantastic advice. I have a few thoughts to add about your upcoming week and in no particular order:

- Give yourself grace, lots of it. (Whether or not you 'snap out of the funk', you still give yourself grace. You're going through SO much right now.)

- Get out of the house as much as possible. Go for daily walks (runs, yoga, whatever endorphin-increasing activity you can). I like the idea of taking a book to the park. I believe we are in the same region and the weather looks to be pretty nice for a while, can you go hiking this week?

- Have your support network on speed dial. This isn't the week to think 'I don't want to bother people with my drama'. People who love you want to support you, don't be afraid to reach out.

- As hard (and I mean HARD) it is, don't engage in any R talks. You will never feel better afterwards no matter what was discussed.

- Don't overthink your actions and interactions with H. Nothing you do or don't do in this week is going to dramatically change the short term outcome of your situation (if H is truly in a MLC). Being true to yourself is going to make YOU feel better.

People would tell me 'you won't feel this way forever, things will get easier' and intellectually I could somewhat wrap my mind around it, but emotionally I thought there was no way I would EVER feel OK again. But guess what? They were right. Which is why I go back to giving yourself grace right now. You WILL be OK. But during the moments when you are not, that's OK too. It is all part of the process.

(((El)))

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Thank you for your words DnJ, ovrrnbw, CWarrior, and Sage4,

Originally Posted by DnJ
Their awakening is not guaranteed. If it does happen it will not be a snap out of the personality they now exhibit. It will be a quiet scared whisper of doubt. A doubt of their very existence. Their crafted reality tumbles to sand as they scramble in a futile effort in continual rebuilding and refortifying. They run from themselves.

And are easily influenced by thoughts and actions, especially those of our spouse. That is why detachment is the single best thing you can do. Find detachment and let go. For if you don’t you will be dragged around.

Do not make decisions based upon feelings. Feelings change, and then so does the reason for the decision. Utilize logic and reason.

Further down your path, after ensuring your beliefs and values are those that you want, follow your values. Beliefs are slow to change and make excellent headings in concert with logical reasoning. However, for the moment, your values are a bit skewed - as counterintuitive or untrue as that feels. Have faith in the path, and the kind and compassionate folks who have walked before.


These things I am beginning to accept and are some of the reasons I feel I can move towards D even if doing so goes against my values of doing everything I can for my MR (my principles of taking vows seriously). But I can't protect myself or work through our problems (or his affair) if my H is in La La land and I have no idea if he will ever snap out of it. Logic tells me I have to protect myself.

Originally Posted by Dnj
El, H is with another woman. Yes, avoid going on walks with him. Do not remain in the same room. He is not living there. He is just visiting, and he is not a friend. I understand and empathize with the fact that you cannot prevent him entering the house. Do not be disrespected. Place boundaries when required.

I get it, you do not want to be enemies. H will not listen and will define you as he “needs” to. He will make you the enemy if he requires that. He is literally driven to run and you are going to get the blame. It is not fair. Not at all.

Also realize he will define you as friend if that suits his emotional need. Stick to your path. Your forearmed thoughts and questions are good and will help you see clearly.

Believe nothing he says and only half of what he does.

You cannot fix him, for you did not break him.


This helps. He arrived later this evening and mostly we've been in seperate rooms. Seems he wants to avoid me as much as I do him, so that is how this evening went by. We were cordial towards each other, and it feels strange to be avoiding him, but I'm trying to just move through the awkwardness of it all.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
If you can find some activity, work, house project, social life, etc (not sure how things are near you) that would be great! I would be getting out of the house as well. If nothing else, take a book to a park and hang out. That was one of my go-to's and my W often wanted to know where I had been. Reread the detachment and validation threads every day this week and you will be well on your way to the "not friends but not enemies" position that you seek.


Thank you for the suggestions. I do have a place to go to after dark as well, so I may do that in the evenings after work. And I did reread those threads based on your suggestion and even screen-grabbed them for reference. Thanks for that reminder!

Originally Posted by CWarrior
Wow--that doesn't sound fun. Who are they to you now? To me, he sounds like someone renting a room in the same house. The last time I was in that situation, I think I said "Hi!" or "Goodnight!" when appropriate, once shared my laundry detergent, and once borrowed his dish detergent. If that's your view, I would set boundaries on where he sleeps (not next to you), whether you cook for him (no), whether you do his laundry (no), etc. You are no longer partners, and he's not acting remotely like a friend. Being busy or away sounds good. None of this precludes being friendly! I was friendly with that renter. If it gets intolerable, don't forget the safety valve of staying at a hotel (shared assets!) with your son.


He is sleeping in the basement, so no, not next to me. I did make dinner as I am cooking already for my son, but I also took his offer for him to cook twice this week as well. The rest is going to be up to him, but when he has been here, he's been actually more helpful and such then he had been in the months before he moved out. Our son, I'm sure, is happy he is here so I don't see us heading to a hotel, but I do have options to sleep elsewhere if needed. And ways to escape his presence as needed.

Originally Posted by Sage4
- Give yourself grace, lots of it. (Whether or not you 'snap out of the funk', you still give yourself grace. You're going through SO much right now.)

- Get out of the house as much as possible. Go for daily walks (runs, yoga, whatever endorphin-increasing activity you can). I like the idea of taking a book to the park. I believe we are in the same region and the weather looks to be pretty nice for a while, can you go hiking this week?

- Have your support network on speed dial. This isn't the week to think 'I don't want to bother people with my drama'. People who love you want to support you, don't be afraid to reach out.

- As hard (and I mean HARD) it is, don't engage in any R talks. You will never feel better afterwards no matter what was discussed.

- Don't overthink your actions and interactions with H. Nothing you do or don't do in this week is going to dramatically change the short term outcome of your situation (if H is truly in a MLC). Being true to yourself is going to make YOU feel better.


Thank you Sage for this additional advice. I do feel I have been giving myself grace knowing that I am going through a lot and ignoring it won't help me...so I have been trying to move through the discomfort and sadness as well. And I've gone on walks almost daily (and yes, we've had some nice weather in general between the rainy days) so that has helped. I do worry about R talks as I have a strong feeling he is serving me D papers this week (and there is an agreement I asked him to review as well), so there will probably need to be some words around that. I'm hoping I can just say "I'm too emotional to discuss this right now, so let me absorb it and discuss it with you later", which will also give me time to review anything I get with my L. In general, most of the convos that have come up are H's bringing up wanting to move forward with the D (other than the love note episode), so there has been minimal discussion.

All in all, I've read bits and pieces of all your sitch's so having your words of wisdom on my thread are so appreciated. I do have a small and loving support system, but honestly, no one in my life has experienced anything like this. So, even though I feel love and support from them, I find the advice or responses from most of them extremely frustrating...and I often feel like I have to defend my feelings or actions to them. So this forum, and the books I've been reading, (as well as counseling and the marriage program I did) have helped me the most.

Thank you all... I feel more prepared to deal with this coming week. smile


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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Good Morning El

I’m glad the evening went well with H around.

Watch out for your expectations. You expect H to drop divorce paper work on you. This will lead you to worrying when the other shoe is going to drop. Expectations affects how one behaves. That which we focus upon becomes bigger.

Our subtle subconscious behaviours affects others and sometimes we unwittingly promote that which we do not want by the very fretting over it. Be your kind and cordial self. Make those suppers, and enjoy H’s cooking. Tell him you like it, give feedback. Stay in roommate mode.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
These things I am beginning to accept and are some of the reasons I feel I can move towards D even if doing so goes against my values of doing everything I can for my MR (my principles of taking vows seriously). But I can't protect myself or work through our problems (or his affair) if my H is in La La land and I have no idea if he will ever snap out of it. Logic tells me I have to protect myself.

Divorce does seem to be at odds with our principles, doesn’t it? Vows are serious stuff.

Consider this. H is supposedly actively working towards a divorce. You are responding.

Let H do the heavy lifting. You do not; for you really cannot prevent; block his path and you do not need be too helpful.

If you need financial protection or security than do so. This is a business deal gone sideways. Treat it as such. Logically, well thought out, and sans emotion. You can, and will, cry and scream about things later not during D negotiations and proceedings. And that is only if it gets that far, which is currently being pushed by H.

Something I found helpful was being accurate in thought and heart. The former we have direct control over, the later being influenced. Be accurate in your thoughts and clarity of situation.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
But I can't protect myself or work through our problems (or his affair) if my H is in La La land and I have no idea if he will ever snap out of it.

Be careful with the language you use. Very few things are “can’t”, it is mostly “won’t”. DnJ “can’t” get pregnant. That is accurate. Lol

Our minds are always listening and absorbing. Your mind makes your reality. If you say you can’t do something - your mind will make it so. You can protect yourself while H is in La La land. It is more that you “won’t”.

Now, that is not a bad thing. Perhaps you do not need financial protection at the moment. That’s ok. Be accurate and clear. You have choice and options. Thinking you “can’t” leaves you powerless and adrift. You are not! You “can”, and at the moment you are choosing not to exercise that option. If/when you decide different, you “will” do it.

Can’t vs won’t. Can vs will. Do vs try. By the way “try” predisposed one to fail. It sets up our mind to allow or seek either completion or failure as validate outcomes. “Do” is much better than “try”. True, one may still not succeed, however the rate of success is much higher when one goes into things with a successful “doing” outlook.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
I do worry about R talks as I have a strong feeling he is serving me D papers this week (and there is an agreement I asked him to review as well), so there will probably need to be some words around that. I'm hoping I can just say "I'm too emotional to discuss this right now, so let me absorb it and discuss it with you later", which will also give me time to review anything I get with my L.

Feelings. Do not make decisions based upon them.

If H does serve you papers - fine. Just put them in a pile and look at them after he is gone. Treat them like they are - papers. Shrug. No one get divorced in a day. You have plenty of time, and do not need to rush. If he does surprise you with paperwork, read them later and take them to your lawyer for discussion. You cannot control him, only yourself. You control your thoughts, actions, and reactions.

I do like your proposed response. You could even shorten that up some more for H; for yourself yes that is very true and accurate - good job speaking to your mind.

If H gives you paperwork. “Oh. Divorce paperwork? Thanks H”. Then put them unopened on your desk of counter or whatever. Actions speak so much louder than words.

I know how cr@ppy this all feels. How much it hurts. (((Hugs)))

Stay strong. You are doing fine.

D


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Thanks for the above. Good reminders of the fine differences in feeling and thinking and acting. I like your points a lot. They make sense and feel less 'victim' and more able minded.

Well, I didn't do well with avoiding R talk. H seems confused for the need for the agreement about funds he's spent and in trying to clarify, we got into things a bit. It's surprising that he feels so justified in his behavior and how being separated is supposed to be for me (somehow supposed to protect me from being hurt any more) when I don't want to fund him having another life outside of our MR. H tries to tell me that he will be fair and honest to me, and I had to point out that I don't trust a thing he tells me. He does want to just file D he says. I tried not to get too deep into it. It wasn't a screaming match, but it was more than I wanted to discuss. I did feel very detached. So maybe that is progress.

El


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
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XH Married AP soon after D day.



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Hi El

Oh, I like less victim and more able minded. I can totally see myself using that phrase.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
H seems confused for the need for the agreement about funds he's spent

Of course he did. Lol.

He has the attention span of a gnat right now. He is off in La La Land running around with fairies and unicorns. Things like bills and money and fair equitable splitting of martial asset and bank accounts is not on his radar.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
he feels so justified in his behavior and how being separated is supposed to be for me (somehow supposed to protect me from being hurt any more)

Yep. Part of the script they tell us. And sadly, and more importantly, they tell themselves. They actually believe it! Remember emotional crisis; H needs to believe it. Otherwise he leaving a great gal and family for ... what again... yeah that would be hard to face. Hence the running is multi-fold.

He would love it if you would just go along with his narrative. Do not fall for it! Protect yourself. Know your rights. Ensure you see a L and ask lots of questions. See what you are entitled to, what the default outcome is (the worst case), what the likely outcome is, what rights and monies you can waive, what rights you cannot waive, what you are willingly to wave or negotiate away, and what you are willing to fight tooth and nail for.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
H tries to tell me that he will be fair and honest to me, and I had to point out that I don't trust a thing he tells me.

Good do not believe him.

Actions vs words. Have his actions been honourable? Then how likely is it that he will follow through with what he says. Besides, he might have actually meant it when he said it, however everything is emotionally based for him and his feelings will flit away and so will his commitment to that promise (vow).

They will promise and swear on the souls of their children that there is no affair or cheating - and then get caught. Believe nothing they say, and only half of what they do.

But.... listen to what he says. A person in emotional turmoil can’t help themselves and they drop lots of clues. They are rather smug and feel good about themselves taking charge of their life and feel that nothing will ever go wrong, and they get quite flippant and open about content they probably should not speak about. This doesn’t last for too long, but while it does if you remain quiet and non confrontational they will spill the beans. They really cannot help themselves. (Caveat, this is not true for those that are very angry and start off that way. Your H is calmer; heck he is currently visiting you. Say nothing. No pressure.)

My XW would come back from her L and tell me about her meeting. It was so bizarre. Here she is working to divorce me and she is seeking my input and complaining to me about her L and the financial planners he made her see, the psychologist, the doctor, and such.

Remember the two main hallmarks of MLC are depression and confusion. The confusion is from the two, or more, lives pushing inside them. Eventually most choose the easy path and totally commit to the running. The confusion goes deep within them and they seldom will show it anymore. Of course, one cannot run from themselves; and in the darkness of night, laying still in their bed, with no distractions of delights to run too, they recall a past life which somehow superimposed upon the current one(s). Such is the outcome of choosing such an immoral path. Depression and sleep deprivation are very common among those in crisis. Their physical appearance and health takes a terrible beating; gray circles under the eyes, they age like a decade while they try to regain their youth. Perhaps you have notice such things.

Some advice. Do not tell him you don’t trust him. That will not do you any benefit. To date, it’s ok, what’s done is done. And your got to say your piece. H knows and there is no point in telling him again and again. That advice of non repetition goes for lots of things. For example, telling him you love him, or that you don’t want a D, and such. He’s heard it, he knows it. Our words will not change their mind, because they are in an emotional crisis. It is pressure and they will bolt.

By the sounds of things H doesn’t see the need to discuss monies already spent, I am wondering if you might need financial protection rather sooner than later. Consider that, with a business-like mind and attitude. Perhaps your locale has separation before divorce. That is how it is here in my locale. One must be separated for at least one year before divorcing. The separation is basically a divorce agreement - money and kids and how to split them. If so, a separation would be an easier path to get an agreement with (maybe). It gives protection and security without divorcing.

Most MLCers or WAS have a period when their guilt prompts them to offer better deals then later once they are more entrenched in their new wonderful lives. Again, not the right off the bat angry type. Those are just a battle from day one. My XW was the opposite end of the spectrum, she gave away everything - sole custody of kids, money, house, pension, cars. So weird and strange to see someone so sad and troubled that they throw their entire life away. Their. Entire. Life. Up to that point, tossed away.

So, no more telling H you don’t trust him. Listen lots and say little. A pretty common thing to do is to drink the STFU smoothie whenever you feel like saying something, especially if it is snarky. (STFU - if you can’t figure it out Shut The ___ Up. Lol. OH my goodness, I drank a lot of those during my XW’s “visits”.)

Do you have bank records? Account balances? Credit cards figured out? Mortgage paperwork? Etc. I recall this all being suggested previously in your thread and I believe you have looked after it. Just encouraging you and confirming that is the correct course for you, even if it feels wrong.

H says he want to file D. Hmmm. Words. Not actions. What to believe?

Answer: Yourself.

You follow your path. If you need protection then do it. If you can wait, and you want too (even if you don’t quite feel like it smile ), then do that.

H might change his gnat-like mind regarding divorce. In fact most flip and flop an incredible number of times, like thousands of times, hoping that we will take the ball and run with it. They are guilty and do not want to be seen as the bad guy. It’s a pretty irrational path they are on, so don’t worry when it doesn’t make sense. It mostly doesn’t make sense to them either. And they’re living it!

How are you doing? Do you feel detached still? Somewhat? You are further along than you feel, as odd as that sounds. One’s feelings take time to catch up, which seems weird when discussing the very detachment of feelings. It has to do with the fact that feelings are reactive. Beliefs are proactive, leading, inspiring.

A topic for another post, another day. I believe I’ve taken up more than enough of your thread. Lol.

Have a great evening my dear. I’m thinking about you.

D


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Originally Posted by DnJ

Originally Posted by Elbereth

H seems confused for the need for the agreement about funds he's spent


Of course he did. Lol.

He has the attention span of a gnat right now. He is off in La La Land running around with fairies and unicorns. Things like bills and money and fair equitable splitting of martial asset and bank accounts is not on his radar.


This made me laugh... I can visual it and it's not flattering for him. haha

Originally Posted by DnJ
He would love it if you would just go along with his narrative. Do not fall for it! Protect yourself. Know your rights. Ensure you see a L and ask lots of questions. See what you are entitled to, what the default outcome is (the worst case), what the likely outcome is, what rights and monies you can waive, what rights you cannot waive, what you are willingly to wave or negotiate away, and what you are willing to fight tooth and nail for.


Yeah, he's like, can't we just do it over the internet? I'm like, NO, I can't trust you. You started hiding money and spending behind my back even after we discussed telling each other what we were spending. So, yeah, I have gone to a L, and I am getting prepared to protect myself and come up with a strategy. I've also signed up for a financial course that will help me get through this as well as understand better how to set myself up on my own.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Remember the two main hallmarks of MLC are depression and confusion. The confusion is from the two, or more, lives pushing inside them. Eventually most choose the easy path and totally commit to the running. The confusion goes deep within them and they seldom will show it anymore. Of course, one cannot run from themselves; and in the darkness of night, laying still in their bed, with no distractions of delights to run too, they recall a past life which somehow superimposed upon the current one(s). Such is the outcome of choosing such an immoral path. Depression and sleep deprivation are very common among those in crisis. Their physical appearance and health takes a terrible beating; gray circles under the eyes, they age like a decade while they try to regain their youth. Perhaps you have notice such things.


Yes, he is running and I should have seen it coming by past behaviors with other things in his life. He won't change unless he faces what he is running from, and I am not sure he will, so that is also why I feel I need to protect myself. His selfishness runs deep too. And yes, he is aging before my eyes. So weird to look at him and see a stranger in his eyes and how unhealthy he looks. The loving part of me wants to hug and him tell him it will get better, but then I realize, he's no longer the man I knew. It would be like hugging a ghost. Meaningless and fleeting.

I have been gathering documents and am meeting with the L this week to review the plan. In my state it isn't a year, so it can a matter of months if it doesn't drag out. But since he's been dishonest, there probably will be a period of discovery. I'm not sure he has the fight in him, there hasn't been a lot of anger. At least since the BD. Before then there was, as well as criticism, judgement, lashing out, etc. I have been so confused over the last few years at what was going on, and so I think he's 2-3 years into the crises. And I now wonder if this isn't his first one.

Originally Posted by DnJ
How are you doing? Do you feel detached still? Somewhat? You are further along than you feel, as odd as that sounds. One’s feelings take time to catch up, which seems weird when discussing the very detachment of feelings. It has to do with the fact that feelings are reactive. Beliefs are proactive, leading, inspiring.

A topic for another post, another day. I believe I’ve taken up more than enough of your thread. Lol.


Mmmm...I'm not really sure how I am feeling. I definitely am up and down a bit. I've also been sleeping a lot more than I had been lately. But I'm doing my best to face the discomfort, rest as I feel I need it, and also take time to do things that bring me joy like long walks on the beach or playing with my cat or watching shows. I'm juggling so many things right now that I try not to get sucked into one thing at a time and try to do the uncomfortable (or not so fun stuff) in bursts, like for an hour here and there instead of spending the whole evening digging up paperwork for example.

Anyway, everyone can write as much and as often as they'd like on my thread and I find it so helpful and it means a lot. Thank you so much! I'll catch up more later.


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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I am going through the divorce process and my husband is still in the house. He travels a lot for work, which is good. I have gotten better at it. He stays in another room. I think of him as a roommate I tolerate. I try not to be petty or punishing, but I do not act like a friend. I don't do "wifely" things anymore. At night I take my favorite snack to my room and watch something on netflix. I schedule at least two dinners out with friends so that I can get out of the house and clear my head and receive their support. I will leave just to mosey around at TJ Maxx or something and buy something small for the house that makes me happy. The hardest thing for me is that he still comes to family dinner. Ugh. That's painful. But I console myself by reminding myself I am a really good cook and that's going to suck for him when I'm not in his life lol.

You are doing great. This is hard hard heavy stuff. You will be okay. We will be okay. xo


me: 46 h: 49
m: 24 T: 27
DD1:20 DD2:17 DS:12
BD1: PA for 2 yrs 08/2016
BD2: OW is one of my closest friends 12/2016
BD3: H wants a D 11/2019
Now: He is in the same house, but has filed for divorce.
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Hello Oceangl,

I glanced at some of your sitch and you have had it harder than I do. How hard it is when you sharing a space with someone you love but they act so detached. Isn't it? I find that I hate it when my H is at home, but I also hate it when he is away. Truth is, I still miss the H I fell in love with even thought I know he's been gone for a few years now (that's how far back things started to get bad).

I'm doing my best to have my space. I'm away from the house right now and I have plans tonight and for Friday. Then after the weekend, I will have the house all to myself, at least for a week or so. Like you, I'm a great cook too. But I left him easy foods to make some nights. I'm not going to be the one cooking the whole time like before.

Yeah, this period is hard. But I try to tell myself, it will end. I will get through it. And yes, WE WILL BE OKAY.

(((Oceangl)))


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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Update. Had a convo with my L today. Still hoping to get the agreement signed and then we will start the D process on paper next week. I do hope it stays civil and doesn't get dragged out or super expensive, but I feel I have no choice but to use a L now that H has been taking funds and hiding things from me.

Feeling a bit lighter the last day or so. I think just making the decision to D helps. Even though it's not what I really wanted...I do not want to live like this any longer than I have to. If I am really going to move forward, I want my own place and my own financial freedom to do what I want.

I really wish I could just put everything in storage and go travel for a year. H hated traveling, and I have wanted to do it more. So embracing that would bring me joy as well as distract me from the awful last few years. I would feel empowered and excited to travel. And hell, I'm not getting younger. grin


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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You sound like you are in a good place, and I love that! IMO, you need a L even in the most amicable situation, just because we aren't well-versed in law and it's good to have a guide.

So go travel! I went a couple years ago to Europe by myself. For three weeks. It was awesome but hard too, as this was when we were in limbo land. So sometimes I cried because I knew we would probably never take this trip together. Oh well, onward. Anyway, this is YOUR life and we have to make it exciting and happy whether we are alone or not. Traveling is one of my favorite things.


me: 46 h: 49
m: 24 T: 27
DD1:20 DD2:17 DS:12
BD1: PA for 2 yrs 08/2016
BD2: OW is one of my closest friends 12/2016
BD3: H wants a D 11/2019
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Originally Posted by Elbereth


I glanced at some of your sitch and you have had it harder than I do. How hard it is when you sharing a space with someone you love but they act so detached. Isn't it? I find that I hate it when my H is at home, but I also hate it when he is away. Truth is, I still miss the H I fell in love with even thought I know he's been gone for a few years now (that's how far back things started to get bad).


I'm sorry to hear that you too are already a long time in this situation as well. I fully understand these feelings and they are very normal to feel that way. I too was glad when he came home, but when I look back to it now I preferred the times when he was not since it is much easier to stay detached if they are not around all the time.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
Update. Had a convo with my L today. Still hoping to get the agreement signed and then we will start the D process on paper next week. I do hope it stays civil and doesn't get dragged out or super expensive, but I feel I have no choice but to use a L now that H has been taking funds and hiding things from me.

Feeling a bit lighter the last day or so. I think just making the decision to D helps. Even though it's not what I really wanted...I do not want to live like this any longer than I have to. If I am really going to move forward, I want my own place and my own financial freedom to do what I want.


If you read my stitch I'm also in the proces of the D, on my initiative now since that is what he wanted but did not do anything for it. I strongly believe, as far as the stories I have read and the advice given, that it is better to arrange the D ASAP, even if you still want to stand. (is only arranging financial security in my opinion)
I have no L and working on an divorce with mutual consent and for the moment this is working. Let's hope...
You are doing well Elbereth, definitely so soon after BD!


Originally Posted by Elbereth
I really wish I could just put everything in storage and go travel for a year. H hated traveling, and I have wanted to do it more. So embracing that would bring me joy as well as distract me from the awful last few years. I would feel empowered and excited to travel. And hell, I'm not getting younger.


Will do this as well. Once the divorce is final I will buy a nice house and keep enough money to travel with the kids.
Much more important in live to make good memories with the children.

Keep well dear Elbereth!

Last edited by Eagle3; 03/12/21 11:25 AM.

Me(45)EXH(44)
M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16
04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1
12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child)
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Originally Posted by Elbereth
I really wish I could just put everything in storage and go travel for a year. H hated traveling, and I have wanted to do it more. So embracing that would bring me joy as well as distract me from the awful last few years. I would feel empowered and excited to travel. And hell, I'm not getting younger. grin

I love this goal! If any part of your travel includes US National Parks, post in my thread. I can give good advice on half of them, and I can point you to good resources for the other half. I've regretted buying cars and electronics. I've never regretted travel. The good memories you make stay with you.

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Hello there,

I am sorry you are here. I have tried to read all of the posts in this thread to familiarize myself but I didn't go back further. I am glad you are getting good support from the community here. It can be hard sometimes with friends IRL because they care so much for us and want to give us advice, and that at times it can feel judgmental and hurtful too. Here we all have a similar sitch and understanding and also the safety of privacy. I am not sure if I ever mentioned this in my threads, but I got dumped by one of my closest friends and support people at the same time my H came back. She never told me why but we didn't have a falling out or a conflict. She just disappeared from my life and when I reached out she told me "it's not you, it's me ..." So as much as our friends and family want what us best for us, the choices we make also has an effect on them.

When I read someone's threads I try and really think about what I can say that might be different or helpful. I don't want to reinvent the wheel or repeat what has already been said. You seem to have a level head and are doing great. It's so, so hard. I am glad you are adopting more self care (GAL) because it's the best way to combat the stress and also to look forward. A couple of things stood out to me in reading here that I wanted to point out.

You mentioned that his last M ended with adultery and so it appears history is repeating itself. And while I do believe that people can change, they have to want to first. It seems he is one of those people that moves onto the next relationships seeking comfort and validation from someone new instead of dealing with the issues in the M that he has in front of him. That is a pretty big character flaw IMO. It is also a pattern. Patterns repeat unless the individual is aware of it and motivated to break it. He expresses feeling guilty for hurting you, but that is not the same as wanting to understand why he is making theses choices. ... BTW, my H had the same patterns and he did return to our M. When I met him 20 years ago he started to take an interest in me even tho he already had a GF ....

May brought up that she doesn't like the term plan B and I totally get that. Heck, I was plan B for the duration of my H's A, but really he was a confused mess, so what does that even matter who is A, B, C? I think sometimes we say "plan B" to empower the poster to remove themselves from feeling, and appearing, that they are vying for the affections of someone who has eyes for someone else. Because no one wants to be that person, right? Ugh! I cringe at how I messed that up for sooooo long. And just as in May's sitch, it wasn't until I dropped the rope and let go of him, that he started to genuinely want me back .... Humans are messed up creatures!

What makes me cringe more than Plan B tho is the term MLC. I just still do not understand how using that benefits anyone. I could argue that my H was having a MLC as much as anyone on here. But how does that help my sitch? Yes he was in a crisis, yes he was mid life, and depressed, and changed his personality and became an alien, and had an affair and yes it lasted awhile (before my BD for a couple years I think), but so what? He also was unhappy with me and our M and that is also one of the reasons he left. It is not one or the other. So by labeling our spouse as having a MLC, do we find some comfort in believing that it has less to do with our M issues and more to do with their personal crisis? I just do not see the benefit of it. Either way, our M is in crisis, we are not their personal psychiatrist to diagnose them (which by the way it is not recognized by the DSM) and our focus should be on us and what we can control. We can only control our own behavior, choices and mood. Yes, mood. As we learn to care for ourselves better and detach, our mood will slowly improve over time and we will have more good days than bad.

I see you are talking to an L and also want to file. You guys are having a lot of D talks. Are you sure this is what you want? Because thats not clear to me. If there is any part of you that thinks you may want to save your M at some point, I think it's better not to discuss any of this with him. The more you guys have R or D talks, the more you are reminding him that this is what he thinks he wants. I am firm believer that less is more. Distance, time and space are the safest route. Less conversations and less replies to anything that isn't urgent. It better for your mental health too. Time does heal all. For some it's just a longer process!

Blu


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Originally Posted by Oceangl
So go travel! I went a couple years ago to Europe by myself. For three weeks. It was awesome but hard too, as this was when we were in limbo land. So sometimes I cried because I knew we would probably never take this trip together. Oh well, onward. Anyway, this is YOUR life and we have to make it exciting and happy whether we are alone or not. Traveling is one of my favorite things.

Wow! Sounds amazing! Yeah, I would be sad in some ways too...as he promised me some trips and they never happened. So disappointing.

Originally Posted by Eagle3
If you read my stitch I'm also in the process of the D, on my initiative now since that is what he wanted but did not do anything for it. I strongly believe, as far as the stories I have read and the advice given, that it is better to arrange the D ASAP, even if you still want to stand. (is only arranging financial security in my opinion)
I have no L and working on an divorce with mutual consent and for the moment this is working. Let's hope...
You are doing well Elbereth, definitely so soon after BD!

Yeah, I'm mostly doing it because I realize I have no choice and need to protect myself financially. Even if I wanted to stand and try to make the MR work, I need to protect myself as it may never happen. But he is also insisting he still wants to divorce but also has dragged his feet, and he's spending a lot of money, so what choice do I have? You are right, if I decide to stand, I can do it regardless of D. Thanks for your advice Eagle3. Yeah, it's up to us to make our own new memories right?

And CWarrior, I will definitely ping you if I decide to do National Parks. But first on my bucket list is outside of the US, like Europe! smile


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
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Originally Posted by BluWave
I am sorry you are here. I have tried to read all of the posts in this thread to familiarize myself but I didn't go back further. I am glad you are getting good support from the community here. It can be hard sometimes with friends IRL because they care so much for us and want to give us advice, and that at times it can feel judgmental and hurtful too. Here we all have a similar sitch and understanding and also the safety of privacy. I am not sure if I ever mentioned this in my threads, but I got dumped by one of my closest friends and support people at the same time my H came back. She never told me why but we didn't have a falling out or a conflict. She just disappeared from my life and when I reached out she told me "it's not you, it's me ..." So as much as our friends and family want what us best for us, the choices we make also has an effect on them.

Wow, I can't imagine what that must have felt like for you. I'm so sorry. I agree that sometimes the choices we make does affect them, and not always positively. I have felt that even if I could forgive my H someday, my friends/family would not, and that is unfair to me, when it's really about my life, not theirs. You would think they would support us in our decisions, but instead, I feel they would be a roadblock to saving my MR.

Originally Posted by BluWave
You mentioned that his last M ended with adultery and so it appears history is repeating itself. And while I do believe that people can change, they have to want to first. It seems he is one of those people that moves onto the next relationships seeking comfort and validation from someone new instead of dealing with the issues in the M that he has in front of him. That is a pretty big character flaw IMO. It is also a pattern. Patterns repeat unless the individual is aware of it and motivated to break it. He expresses feeling guilty for hurting you, but that is not the same as wanting to understand why he is making theses choices. ... BTW, my H had the same patterns and he did return to our M. When I met him 20 years ago he started to take an interest in me even tho he already had a GF ....

To clarify, his XW and XGF both cheated ON HIM, one after the other. He was very devastated and it took a lot for him to get passed that. And that is why I trusted him so completely...that he would never do such a thing knowing how horrible it felt. Alas, I was wrong, obviously.

As for 'big character flaws' I've been thinking a lot about this the last few days...and struggling a bit. There is a part of me that wonders if some of these terrible traits I saw in the last few years are character flaws that I ignored or made excuses for? I've been thinking about how selfish he had become over time, and how no matter how much I did to try to support his needs, the more it felt like failure. It wasn't that he blamed me for his unhappiness or stress, but that he expected me to be the strong one and would tell me that he couldn't deal with things, or that he needed me to do more, etc, as if he was the only one dealing with a lot of stress and problems (or at least his were 'bigger' or 'more important' than mine). If I expressed exhaustion, or needed support in return, he got even more frustrated as he said he didn't have the bandwidth. So, in looking at the last few years, it does feel like I didn't matter as much as I should have. That my needs were secondary to his (and the kids). Was this extreme stress that we had in our lives that just pushed him to the edge or was this the real him that finally showed itself? Then other thoughts go through my head, like did he drive the other women in his life to search for love and respect from others? And that is why they cheated on him? Is he just a weak person, or does he really only care about himself?

Originally Posted by BluWave
May brought up that she doesn't like the term plan B and I totally get that. Heck, I was plan B for the duration of my H's A, but really he was a confused mess, so what does that even matter who is A, B, C? I think sometimes we say "plan B" to empower the poster to remove themselves from feeling, and appearing, that they are vying for the affections of someone who has eyes for someone else. Because no one wants to be that person, right? Ugh! I cringe at how I messed that up for sooooo long. And just as in May's sitch, it wasn't until I dropped the rope and let go of him, that he started to genuinely want me back .... Humans are messed up creatures!

What makes me cringe more than Plan B tho is the term MLC. I just still do not understand how using that benefits anyone. I could argue that my H was having a MLC as much as anyone on here. But how does that help my sitch? Yes he was in a crisis, yes he was mid life, and depressed, and changed his personality and became an alien, and had an affair and yes it lasted awhile (before my BD for a couple years I think), but so what? He also was unhappy with me and our M and that is also one of the reasons he left. It is not one or the other. So by labeling our spouse as having a MLC, do we find some comfort in believing that it has less to do with our M issues and more to do with their personal crisis? I just do not see the benefit of it. Either way, our M is in crisis, we are not their personal psychiatrist to diagnose them (which by the way it is not recognized by the DSM) and our focus should be on us and what we can control. We can only control our own behavior, choices and mood. Yes, mood. As we learn to care for ourselves better and detach, our mood will slowly improve over time and we will have more good days than bad.

I don't want to be a Plan B, but if I 'stand', isn't that essentially what I am? It is messed up, but I think that is why we must drop the rope to have self-respect and to protect ourselves. Plan B becomes instead something else....like that amazing person I was dumb enough to lose....which is much more of what I would like to be thought of.

As for MLC, I think it helped me a lot to understand and to see some reasons for this hell I've been living the last few years...and that some of it wasn't my fault. Yea, we both were unhappy in the MR. But I was trying and he was in La La land. None of this knowledge changes what happened, but I personally find some 'comfort' if you can call it that, in believing that a lot of the issues were due to his crisis. But, it's not an excuse and it doesn't mean that he would be forgiven. What he's done and the decisions he has made have repercussions and I am not even sure I could ever forgive him for it. So, yeah, I see what you mean, but for me, feeling that he is in MLC helps me to deal with all of this better than if I had just felt like everything I had tried to do for my MR was a failure on my part. Maybe that is crazy...as I really have no clinical proof.

Originally Posted by BluWave
I see you are talking to an L and also want to file. You guys are having a lot of D talks. Are you sure this is what you want? Because thats not clear to me. If there is any part of you that thinks you may want to save your M at some point, I think it's better not to discuss any of this with him. The more you guys have R or D talks, the more you are reminding him that this is what he thinks he wants. I am firm believer that less is more. Distance, time and space are the safest route. Less conversations and less replies to anything that isn't urgent. It better for your mental health too. Time does heal all. For some it's just a longer process!

He's been pushing for the D, and I have tried to avoid R and D talks as much as possible. I agree with you that less is more. Mostly, I've just been trying to get him to sign the agreement about funds he's spent and took from joint accounts. I didn't want a D. So I can see why you struggled to tell where my head was at. In principle I believe I committed to this MR and I can't feel good just handing him what he wants with a D. But I also feel threatened financially and with this being my second D, I'm already not in a strong financial position. So I can't just help fund his A and be left with scraps. I feel strongly that his AP visited him in his rental sometime during the last month. Why should I have to pay for that? So, I'm doing the D to protect my financial situation. If the A ended, I may not rush to D, but so far there is no sign that he is changing his mind, so I will move forward with D.

It's been hard because for financial reasons, it's better he stays at our home. And we still have his son (my Step-son) here too. So it's better for him too. But it is harder to detach and have space. But this last week while he was back, I did stay in other rooms, had him manage some meals, and I went out with friends some evenings. We spoke very little until the last day before he left on a trip. So, I will do my best to have less convos (especially R ones), less interaction, space and detachment, even if he is staying here. In part of the D we also have to start selling our H, so I think it will be temporary anyway...

You have given me a lot to think about the last few days. It was your comments that had me digging deeper into thinking about if my H has the character and the integrity that I want in a partner. I know that what I have seen the last few years is not what I want in a partner. I just wish I knew if this is who is truly is and it took awhile for him drop the veil, or if this is the man in crisis that deserves me being the lighthouse for? That question is still running though my head, and I guess I don't have to decide today. I just need to keep focusing on me and what I can control and the rest will come.

Thank you so much for your thoughts! I really appreciate them! Sorry if my response is way too long! shocked


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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Good Morning E

Originally Posted by Elbereth
I have felt that even if I could forgive my H someday, my friends/family would not, and that is unfair to me, when it's really about my life, not theirs. You would think they would support us in our decisions, but instead, I feel they would be a roadblock to saving my MR.

Family and friends will follow your lead; make it a good one. Be the lighthouse to them as well.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
If I expressed exhaustion, or needed support in return, he got even more frustrated as he said he didn't have the bandwidth.

A person in crisis has their emotions cranked to eleven. Then cannot handle your’s or anyone else’s emotions, they can’t even handle their own. Affairs and fantasy life, running away from all of life’s responsibilities, cognitive dissonance, and consuming depression, are hallmark behaviours of a Mid Life Crisis.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
Was this extreme stress that we had in our lives that just pushed him to the edge or was this the real him that finally showed itself? Then other thoughts go through my head, like did he drive the other women in his life to search for love and respect from others? And that is why they cheated on him? Is he just a weak person, or does he really only care about himself?

It is common for us to analyze and look for a cause and blame. You knew H, you completely believed that he would never cheat on you. (Take comfort, I completely trusted my XW. Completely! Absolutely!)

Do not rewrite your own history. MLC is a strange thing. Our once loving spouse becomes an alien. They blow up their life, and everyone’s around them. And we try to find answers in that which we know. However, most of us don’t know about MLC; it ain’t like it’s portrayed in Hollywood. MLC is a terrible thing, a foreign thing, and it takes quite a shift in our perception to understand it.

Is this just who he was underneath? We all pull the small signs of the past, and the “remembered” signs, to help find answers. Careful not to rewrite your history, not to skew the data. He is a different person now. This might be the new and permanent him, or it might not be. That is really up to him.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
I'm doing the D to protect my financial situation.

Good for you!

Originally Posted by Elbereth
But, it's not an excuse and it doesn't mean that he would be forgiven. What he's done and the decisions he has made have repercussions and I am not even sure I could ever forgive him for it.

Your capacity to forgive will probably surprise you. If you want it.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
I don't want to be a Plan B, but if I 'stand', isn't that essentially what I am?

Depends on who and why you are standing. It’s not for H, or M. Stand for you. Stand for your beliefs, values, and convictions.

You are Plan A. The prize. Whether H ever sees that or not, changes nothing. You are worthy! Never sell yourself short.

Be the way, standing really starts when one is healed enough to stand down. Up to that point “standing” is the default; more a byproduct of our healing path. After that, it is a choice.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
I just wish I knew if this is who is truly is and it took awhile for him drop the veil, or if this is the man in crisis that deserves me being the lighthouse for?

Be the lighthouse for yourself.

As you said, you only control you.

Be the lighthouse of your life. Kids, family, and friends will follow your fine example.

There is plenty of journey ahead of you, ahead for all us. Life’s path is full of surprises, troubles, wonders, opportunities, and blessings; be open to it. Be patient, live today well, and let the unknown future unfold in its own time.

Acceptance and forgiveness are hard earned, along with the wisdom one picks up along the way. Pretty good headings for a great life, in my humble opinion.

Have a great day E.

D


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Hi Elbereth, this caught my eye:

Originally Posted by Elbereth
I don't want to be a Plan B, but if I 'stand', isn't that essentially what I am? It is messed up, but I think that is why we must drop the rope to have self-respect and to protect ourselves. Plan B becomes instead something else....like that amazing person I was dumb enough to lose....which is much more of what I would like to be thought of.


This is a common misconception by LBSs. LBSs see to things binary. Either you are standing, OR you are moving forward with D. However, these things are much more complex than that. And you can show you are not willing to be plan B and still stand for your marriage. This is a huge topic and probably can't be covered in a single post. But standing for your marriage is not equal to being plan B. You can stand for your marriage and still refuse to be plan B.

I know your situation is such that being the one to file has benefits, and if that is what you need to do so be it. Many LBSs are morally opposed to D, and therefore cannot bring themselves to be the one to file. But that doesn't mean that they have to settle for being plan B. Many of the actions that are espoused here are are keyed towards not being plan B:

- Kicking a cheating spouse out of the MBR
- Asking a cheating spouse to leave the house
- Not allowing disrespect (ending the conversation and walking away)
- Listening and validating, not engaging in arguing and explaining
- Focus on you and your kids, drop focus from the WAS
- Not actively helping in the D, but not hindering it either (make the WAS do the dirty work)
- GAL (this is important, to reestablish connections, friendships, activities, hobbies you may have let languish)
- Move forward with your life!

I can only speak for myself, but a spouse in a PA is a dealbreaker for me. That is where my line in the sand is drawn. Short of that I would be in the morally-opposed to D camp, and therefore personally couldn't participate in the D, though I wouldn't stand in the way. In my situation I contacted a lawyer, mainly to dispel some garbage my WAW was feeding me (we could do a quicky, online divorce for $400, etc). He immediately tried to talk me into being the one to file for D because that would give me an advantage. However, I could never bring myself to that since my W had not been involved in a PA (hers was a long-distance EA). But I also refused to be plan B, and started taking the necessary steps to make that clear.

So in short (TLDR) not being plan B and being the one to file or move the D along is not the same thing. You can refuse to be plan B but also not be the one to file for D. However, if you feel you cannot do both, then no one will fault you for being the one to file for D! That is within your right to do.


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Just piggybacking onto the others advice here, it is very personal whether you file or he does. It is so subjective depending on your situation. Did you say you had a consultation with a lawyer yet? I can't remember. I had one and it gave me such peace of mind. The L was able to walk me through the process and my options, etc. Much depends on your state. In my state, we have the option of doing a divorce through a collaborative process. Each party has a lawyer to guide and advise, but also a neutral financial facilitator and a neutral facilitator who helps make a parenting plan and helps with decisions on things other than financial. So find out all your options.

For me in the end, standing up for myself meant telling him that I did not want a divorce, I believed that we could have a happy future together if we were both committed to it, but I also would not allow him to treat me like a roommate, etc. That the way he was treating me was not acceptable.

In the end, I told him if he wanted this divorce so much he could file for it, and that's what ended up happening. But where I live, with the process we chose, it doesn't matter who does the filing.

I'm sorry, I know this is not an easy path. xo


me: 46 h: 49
m: 24 T: 27
DD1:20 DD2:17 DS:12
BD1: PA for 2 yrs 08/2016
BD2: OW is one of my closest friends 12/2016
BD3: H wants a D 11/2019
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Originally Posted by DnJ
It is common for us to analyze and look for a cause and blame. You knew H, you completely believed that he would never cheat on you. (Take comfort, I completely trusted my XW. Completely! Absolutely!)

Do not rewrite your own history. MLC is a strange thing. Our once loving spouse becomes an alien. They blow up their life, and everyone’s around them. And we try to find answers in that which we know. However, most of us don’t know about MLC; it ain’t like it’s portrayed in Hollywood. MLC is a terrible thing, a foreign thing, and it takes quite a shift in our perception to understand it.

Is this just who he was underneath? We all pull the small signs of the past, and the “remembered” signs, to help find answers. Careful not to rewrite your history, not to skew the data. He is a different person now. This might be the new and permanent him, or it might not be. That is really up to him.

Yeah, I do think I'm in a bit of a negative rut and you are right, I shouldn't rewrite my own past. He was the man I fell in love with, at one time. Thanks for the shift in perspective. I needed it. smile

Originally Posted by DnJ
Your capacity to forgive will probably surprise you. If you want it.

This is a tough one to consider. I know I can forgive, but I am not sure if I could freely. He would have to earn it.

As for standing and the lighthouse, I'm doing my best to do it for me first. I am trying to do as you suggest...be patient, live today well, and let my unknown future unfold in it's own time. IT SURE IS DARN HARD THOUGH.

You always give me such good things to think about... smile


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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Originally Posted by SteveLW
This is a common misconception by LBSs. LBSs see to things binary. Either you are standing, OR you are moving forward with D. However, these things are much more complex than that. And you can show you are not willing to be plan B and still stand for your marriage. This is a huge topic and probably can't be covered in a single post. But standing for your marriage is not equal to being plan B. You can stand for your marriage and still refuse to be plan B.

I know your situation is such that being the one to file has benefits, and if that is what you need to do so be it. Many LBSs are morally opposed to D, and therefore cannot bring themselves to be the one to file. But that doesn't mean that they have to settle for being plan B. Many of the actions that are espoused here are are keyed towards not being plan B:

- Kicking a cheating spouse out of the MBR
- Asking a cheating spouse to leave the house
- Not allowing disrespect (ending the conversation and walking away)
- Listening and validating, not engaging in arguing and explaining
- Focus on you and your kids, drop focus from the WAS
- Not actively helping in the D, but not hindering it either (make the WAS do the dirty work)
- GAL (this is important, to reestablish connections, friendships, activities, hobbies you may have let languish)
- Move forward with your life!

I'm trying not to be too binary, but I am finding myself struggling with everything. I do want to stand, I don't want to be divorced, I didn't want to be the one to file first. These were the values and feelings that I began this journey with. I feel forced into a D, for my own financial protection.

I also get that PA is a deal breaker for you. And, I am still trying to understand if it is a deal breaker for me. I guess I just never expected to be in this sitch and thought I would never stand if I was with someone who cheated, but there is a part of me that is wanting to stand. But I have no way of knowing IF I CAN forgive for this. I don't think I can know unless we tried to reconcile. So, for now that has been where my head is at. And of course I would prefer to stay married with the hope of saving my marriage, but with no guarantees, I can't risk my future on him. This current him. So in doing this, I am standing for myself first. At least that is what I am telling myself in my head and heart. I can still stand for the hope of reconciliation, but I can't save the marriage at this point and save myself. Is that selfish of me? Whatever name you put on me, in his eyes, I am Plan B. At least right now. I know I am the prize, but he may never see that.

As for your checklist above...yes, I'm trying! I have this little list printed out and put in my wallet so I can remind myself of the things to do for me. Thank you! smile


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Elbereth, I can relate to your latest post so much. Are you a bit of a control freak? I know I am, and I know a lot of LBSs that are tend to not really want to reconcile with a cheater, but they want to be the one to make the determination about it. I struggled with this about a year into my last sitch. If you read my posts from Dec. 2018 I almost became the WAS. We were 6 months+ into reconciling, and I had this desire to just end the marriage and move forward with my life. It was a weird, strange feeling. And it lasted about a month. I think that was the control freak side of me saying "Okay, you were able to turn this thing around, now YOU walkaway while you are in control." I've witnessed this a few times in my own life where a friend, coworker, or someone else I knew, after being cheated on and moving past the infidelity of their spouse decided they wanted to end the marriage after all. We've had a recent newcomer to the board that cheated a while back and now his W is walking away months after agreeing to move forward from it. It happens.

So I relate a lot to what you are saying. I think people that are competitive have this as well. "I am going to win them away from OP!" Then once they've won, they don't like the prize.

So keep sorting it all out. It is hard to think clearly in the midst of the raw emotions of situations like these. One minute you are ready go to file, the next you feel like wrapping your arms around his ankle and holding on for dear life. I get it, I was there too. But as we like to say around here, limbo is the gift of time. Rarely is the natural reaction to these kinds of situations the right one. We need to take the time to stop and consider everything, and move forward purposefully. The LBS that struggle the most are the ones that are like a tumbleweed blowing in the weed. We have an excellent example of that in poster Steve_ right now. Guy does and says whatever comes to him at any given moment, and he is struggling in his situation mightily because of it. You are doing well in that you are just giving it the time it needs to make the big decisions. And you will look back one day, regardless of what happens, and you will be able to say that you took the time to make the best choice.

Keep on working Elbereth! You've got this and you will be better and stronger for it.


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Hi SteveLW,

Glad to see my post made it on here! The forum crashed while I was responding to all of you last night so I never finished and still want to write a reply to you Oceangl.

I know (and can admit) that I am sort of a control freak. But I think it's because I am the type of person who is very thoughtful in making decisions and once I do, I am sort of solid on them. So I don't deal with change after my decisions well. As for being competitive, not at all...at least not in the common sense. I enjoy winning, but I don't need to win. If that makes sense. Most hobbies and situations that I enjoy most are mostly competing with myself in the sense that I feed off my own self improvement. I know, I'm a bit odd.

As for seeing my wanting to reconcile as maybe wanting to be in control of saying "I'm the one walking away", I find that interesting. In my mind, I feel I need to understand where his heart and head was and is during reconciliation. I need to know that there is true remorse for what happened, I need to know that he will put me and our relationship above his whims, etc. I need to feel respected, loved, and supported. Things that I value in a relationship and in a partner. If I see that person in reconciliation, I feel that I may be able to forgive. But if I don't, then I value myself enough to walk away with a clear conscious, knowing that I gave it my all but also stood for what matters to me. Does that make sense? And I would not feel good if I 'won' him from the OW by competitive pressure, so that is why I have tried very hard to follow everyone's direction and not pursue and try to act without pressure. I'm struggling, but trying at least. As I do want choosing me/our MR to be his choice. Then it will be a real choice.

I am doing my best to take this time slowly. It feels like this has been going on for so long, but in reality, it's hasn't. Just a few months. So I need to recognize that slow moving time...and allow for more. And patience. I am already stronger...so that is a good thing. smile


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Hello E

Nothing of the path we were unwillingly forced upon is easy. (((Hugs)))

There are incredible blessings and opportunities; stay the course you will make it.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
I know I can forgive, but I am not sure if I could freely. He would have to earn it.

Nope. Forgiveness is not earned, and is bestowed freely. It comes from, and is for, you. Forgiveness, as counterintuitive as this sounds, has little to do with the transgressor and everything to do with you and your beliefs.

H cannot do anything to earn your forgiveness.

H forced you onto this unwanted path. He doesn’t control where it takes you. That includes being angry, holding a grudge, and not forgiving him; and includes finding peace, letting go, and finding acceptance and forgiveness. All within your grasp, and abilities to find and/or reinforce/strengthen/craft/discard.

Of course it is a bit of slog to get there. Lots of stuff to work through.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
IT SURE IS DARN HARD THOUGH.

LOL

Ain’t that the truth.

Stick with it. Walk the path. Once you’re on the other side you’ll look back and be very happy you did. And by the way, all that hard work pays huge dividends.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
I'm trying not to be too binary, but I am finding myself struggling with everything. I do want to stand, I don't want to be divorced, I didn't want to be the one to file first. These were the values and feelings that I began this journey with. I feel forced into a D, for my own financial protection.

Glad to see you not being binary with your viewpoints. Steve has given good advice.

Look to the possibilities. You need not have a firm answer, and it is actually better if you don’t, for many of the currently maddeningly things your are dealing with can/will change their appearance after a while.

Our struggle is within ourselves. It is our ego. That need to be right. That voice that must be heard. We, our ego, gets in our own way. Among the things we need to let go of - H, M, fear, etc. - our ego is paramount. That doesn’t mean we disregard it, no our ego has value and is valuable. We do learn to control that which we can control - ourselves. Our thoughts, actions, and reactions. Which are mostly ego driven.

Dealbreakers, cheating, affairs, and so on; and standing. Yes, quite a bubbling pot of mixed emotions, thoughts, and beliefs. Start with intellect, your thoughts, that which you have direct control over. Consider where you currently are, where you want to be, and what thoughts make that possible and reinforce that chosen path.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
But I have no way of knowing IF I CAN forgive for this. I don't think I can know unless we tried to reconcile.

Sorry, that is emotionally driven. Most times everything after “but” is unwittingly justifying us usually in the negative.

Intellectually, you know you can forgive. No need to go further than that. Keep it straightforward. “I can forgive H.”

At first, you will feel like you cannot. You will even believe you cannot. Feelings are real and temporary and do change; stop reinforcing this one and let it wither.

Beliefs can, and do, change. They take time and effort though our directed thoughts and influenced feelings. Once you have crafted a belief which you aspire too, its reinforcement becomes self-affirming which cascades to your feelings and thoughts. A rather cyclic effect, which at the moment is not performing like you want it too, so alterations are required.

Accuracy. “I can forgive.”

Forgiveness is, in truth, foreign to most people. We kind of know what it is. Yet we have little actual experience with it. There are very few living examples, and society is more blame oriented than forgiving. The idea/belief that someone must earn their forgiveness is pretty common, which keeps that very tenet out of people’s reach.

Again, because I do believe in you - “I can forgive”.

Your mind is always listening and crafting your reality. Feed it well. Be patient, this all takes time.

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My only add to what DnJ said is that while forgiveness is not earned.....it should be sought. It is impossible to forgive someone that doesn't want to be forgiven. For instance, physical abusers, you cannot forgive them while they are actively continuing to abuse you. BUT, if they stop, change their ways, and get the help they need to stop......then you can CHOOSE to forgive them. But as DnJ says, that doesn't earn them forgiveness. (I could interject with Jesus and forgiveness of sin here, but I think you get the point!)

Elbereth, again, I love that you are taking it slowly. These situations didn't occur overnight, they are never resolved overnight either. Just keep focusing on you, go out and live that awesome life you deserve to be living, and let the chips fall where they may.


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Forgiveness, like most things in life is not a simple cut and dried thing. It would be great if it were sought, however that is not a requisite for one to find it within themselves. True, the current actions need to be ceased, yet one can forgive without the transgression doing anything further. Consider how you can/could forgive someone who is dead. Obviously you would have no tangible proof of their desire to seek forgiveness, yet that need not stop you.

My XW has done nothing to smooth the damage between us or with her kids. And I have forgiven her. That does not mean condoning, or otherwise stating such immoral and deceitful behaviour is correct or allowed - it is however, stating her behaviour is forgivable. I no longer seek restitution or retribution regarding her; and that is incredibly freeing and peaceful.

With candour, this is not a hugely populated place; people do not know how to forgive. Although, I have and am converting quite a few. Plenty of times in real life it starts with something like “I would never be able to forgive my W if she ever did something like that.” That usually leads into a conversation much like I have here, about how “you never really know just how forgiving you can be until you are tested, which I sincerely you are not”. From there the veil of foreignness is pulled back as demonstrated traits take its place. It is pretty humbling when one sees just how many lives each of us touch and how the smallest action can have life altering outcomes for someone.

That may have been one of the most needed realizations - I do not know all ends. How could I ever judge her? So, I let go, forgive, and gave her to God. Of course this view came about rather abruptly with that hellish nightmare of her being damned. I prayed right then and there, in the wee hours of the night, for God to forgive her. Lol. Me, begging God to forgive because I already did.

After that, sure there were plenty of other lessons and internal things to overcome, however holding a grudge and being angry were no longer on the list. I did dip pretty low though to find my path, about as low as one can go really. It took many more months before I forgave myself for that. (For those that never read my thread, I was in an incredible ceaseless pain and ending things was seriously considered. Trust me when I say this - things do get better. Much much better.)

My lowest and paradoxically my highest moment. Perception. Dark and shinny, good and evil, low and high, same coin different sides. I suppose it comes down to what one chooses. How one exercises their free will.

Hmmmm. Kind of strayed a bit. Sorry Elbereth.

You are receiving some excellent advice from the posters. I really like Steve’s view as well. You are doing fine, take it slow and be patient.

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Interesting discussion. I'll add my two cents to the roll of coins!

Originally Posted by Elbereth
I need to know that there is true remorse for what happened, I need to know that he will put me and our relationship above his whims, etc. I need to feel respected, loved, and supported.

Originally Posted by "Berkeley"
Psychologists generally define forgiveness as a conscious, deliberate decision to release feelings of resentment or vengeance toward a person or group who has harmed you, regardless of whether they actually deserve your forgiveness. ... Forgiveness does not mean forgetting, nor does it mean condoning or excusing offenses.

Forgiving a person does not imply trusting them again, nor giving them a chair at your table. In Elbereth's shoes, knowing her husband put his whims so high above her, I could understand being uncertain whether to trust and rebuild. I could see how true remorse would help make her feel safer to do so.

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Originally Posted by Oceangl
For me in the end, standing up for myself meant telling him that I did not want a divorce, I believed that we could have a happy future together if we were both committed to it, but I also would not allow him to treat me like a roommate, etc. That the way he was treating me was not acceptable.

In the end, I told him if he wanted this divorce so much he could file for it, and that's what ended up happening. But where I live, with the process we chose, it doesn't matter who does the filing.

Yeah, I have a lawyer and he's been pushing me to file from day one even though I started out doing exactly what you said. However, my H has not served me D papers yet, and has been dragging, and while that has been going on, more secrets, spending etc. So I have made the decision to file only to protect myself. It doesn't matter who does it first in my state either. But the longer I put it off, the more of the assets he is using for his A and crises, and the more that I also end up paying for...as it's a 50/50 no fault state.

Thank you for your kind words. It is such an individual thing. I truly wanted to force him to file. And have him be responsible for what has happened and the consequences, but I just can't put myself at that level of financial risk, as this is my second divorce and we were already not in the best financial state.

xo


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Oh DnJ, you should be a writer. Your way with words...so good. Yes, you are right...

Originally Posted by DnJ
Forgiveness is not earned, and is bestowed freely. It comes from, and is for, you. Forgiveness, as counterintuitive as this sounds, has little to do with the transgressor and everything to do with you and your beliefs.

H cannot do anything to earn your forgiveness.

H forced you onto this unwanted path. He doesn’t control where it takes you. That includes being angry, holding a grudge, and not forgiving him; and includes finding peace, letting go, and finding acceptance and forgiveness. All within your grasp, and abilities to find and/or reinforce/strengthen/craft/discard.


I know you and SteveLW are right. And in my heart I know that like CWarrior said...
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Forgiving a person does not imply trusting them again, nor giving them a chair at your table. In Elbereth's shoes, knowing her husband put his whims so high above her, I could understand being uncertain whether to trust and rebuild. I could see how true remorse would help make her feel safer to do so.

So maybe my forgiveness is not 'earned' as my description demands. As you are right, one can forgive regardless of situation or even if someone even knows they do. As it comes from me and is in me. It's something I let go of that allows me to forgive. I do get that. I have done that in other situations. But, CWarrior is right, I would need to feel safe in doing it in this situation. And as SteveLW said, forgiveness can be 'sought' and I would want to see that happening to feel safe in forgiving. Of course, it would still be my choice to do it regardless, but I'm not sure I could.

I am doing my best to not be angry, or hold a grudge or focus on negative things. I am focused on me, being positive, looking towards my future. So as much as it hurts, I'm not sitting here waiting for him to wake up and come back. I'm moving forward as if it's not going to happen. That is freeing in itself...even if it's hard. And it hurts. I am just trying to be patient with myself, and "let the chips fall where they may" in regards to H.

Thank you everyone... Your words and advice do help me to keep perspective, realize when I'm off course, and give me strength to move forward. I appreciate it so much. smile


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Hey El, you are right, it is hard and it does hurt, so very much.

I can’t remember how long you’ve been at this, but that second last paragraph...you’re doing great. As great as one can in this situation anyway. Much respect and keep it up. Regardless where they fall, I’m sure the chips will land on something amazing for you. It may just take some time.


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One other point on forgiveness. It doesn't mean there are not consequences. For instance, you can forgive your husband for what he has done, harbor no ill-will towards him for it, but still decide not remain married to him. This is another area people mix up all the time. It is like when a family member of a murder victim forgives the murderer, that doesn't mean the murderer doesn't go to prison for the rest of their life or (in jurisdictions where it is a punishment) or even given the death penalty. There are still consequences even with forgiveness!

Human beings, as mentioned before, tend to look at things very binary. But most of these things are very complicated. Forgiveness, as DnJ says is for you, not your husband. I know people who have a spouse in their past that cheated and left them and they are still bitter about it! That is no way to live.


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Just for clarity Elbereth, I was fully prepared to file if he continued to drag his feet or refused. Same as you, if you're done and/or protecting yourself, you gotta do what you gotta do. You can only live like that for so long. Especially the more you see your worth.

I think I knew I was close to forgiveness when he and OW didn't have so much power over me any more. I saw her once and realized she meant nothing to me. I t thought for a long time trying to figure out why I hadn't forgiven yet. Part of it was me realizing that I needed my anger to keep me safe. I was afraid if I forgave I would forget and someone would do that to me again.

I am not sure if I have all-the-way forgiven, but I am much more close. It's a journey. Well, at least it is for me. I know now I can protect myself. I also accept that people WILL hurt me in my future, that it's a part of life. And I can take care of myself.


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Hello friends. Thank you for your encouragement OnlyBent, and additional thoughts SteveLW and Oceangl. You all have given me a lot to think about. Forgiveness is a complicated thing...but so important. I'm not sure when I'll be ready to forgive, but I'm also not going to let anger consume me. For me, it just might be letting go versus forgiving. Maybe it's sort of the same thing. I don't know. I will get there when I get there.

I wasn't feeling well most of last week, and just went with it and took lots of naps and self-care. I'm doing better this week. I start the financial workshop this week, so I am excited about that. It will help me plan for my future as well as assist me during the divorce. It's weird, I am sort of itching to get things moving forward now that I've decided I need to get the D. I can't keep living in this way. I'm tired of living in this limbo. Home doesn't feel like home to me anymore. And I think a part of me wants my own space to heal and to nest and to make my own way forward, no strings attached. Or maybe I'm just feeling this way as its something I can control somewhat...an action I can take to help me. But first, I'm still trying to get him to sign the agreement about the funds he took and spent on his affair and crisis. It just keeps dragging out and I am asking for proof if he wants to lower the amount I've asked for. Things are civil. Even somewhat lighthearted as our older son has been home too. Not much else to report. Nothing has really changed. He still seems set on his course and I'm still focusing on my needs and myself.

I am wondering if any of you have done journaling in your situations? I've never been one to journal. Of course I take notes and right down goals and such, but wondering 'how' to journal, and what works for you? Do you write as if you are talking to someone? Or is it more like notes about what you did or felt that day? I'm not sure where to begin with that.... One thing that got me thinking about it is I was listening to a podcast where the counselor discussed how rewriting a situation you've had can be healing. For example, a doctor didn't recognize a child had meningitis until the child was seriously ill and close to death. The parents were angry and threatened to sue him, etc. Of course he was angry and frustrated that they didn't realize that meningitis is very hard to identify in the early stages, etc. However, when he sat down to write the story from the parents point of view, he realized they were just afraid and scared and thought they would lose their child. He instantly didn't feel the anger anymore but felt compassion and empathy. They discussed how doing this even in changing a story that you are in can help you feel less anger, or deal with the feelings or emotions, or feel power over the pain. Anyway, wondered if this is what people do sometimes when journaling too? Anyway, any journaling or diary ideas or suggestions are welcome. smile

El


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I’ve read somewhere before that forgiveness is really just acceptance.

The story about the doctor and the patients, is really just being empathetic. Seeing things through other’s eyes. I’m getting pretty good at it. I’ve tried, but I can’t for the life of me see the actions of STBXW in any kind of positive light though.


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OB, not sure forgiveness is analogous to acceptance. I think you can accept your fate and still hold your WAS accountable for their decisions. That is where I was, thought I also heaped a lot of blame on myself. Unlike many of the LBSs here, I was an absolute lousy H leading up to BD.

Elbereth, many posters use the board to journal. I think that is a good approach. I'd like to see the LBSs that struggle, journal on the board, but despite repeated efforts to get them to they still resist. But the ones that do use the board as a journal seem to do much better in advancing through their sitches.


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Good Morning El

Glad to hear you are feeling better this week. Naps and self care (maybe some chick soup smile ) did the trick.

Is the financial workshop online or classroom? How many sessions? Just curious. It never hurts to acquire further knowledge or firm up that which you are already have. And I agree, it will be helpful during divorce and post divorce.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
It's weird, I am sort of itching to get things moving forward now that I've decided I need to get the D. I can't keep living in this way. I'm tired of living in this limbo. Home doesn't feel like home to me anymore. And I think a part of me wants my own space to heal and to nest and to make my own way forward, no strings attached. Or maybe I'm just feeling this way as its something I can control somewhat...an action I can take to help me.

Limbo is a weird landscape to travel. This path can be difficult and even painful, or much less so, depending upon one’s perception of it. Depending upon their outlook, their choice. Embrace limbo. But how?

Quote
I can't don’t want to keep living in this way.

Small change in wording can have a huge affect internally. This is much more a want than a can’t. That gives you power and choice. And the realization that this weirdness is driven by your feelings.

I totally get how home doesn’t feel like home anymore (for the moment). Feelings are very real and very temporary. Do not make life altering decisions based solely, or mostly, upon them.

I live in the marital home with all the furniture, appliances, equipment, dishes, and everything - except her favourite coffee mug, a laundry basket, and the bathroom scale. The only things she took in her exodus. My home is very much my home - now. It feels it. I think it. I believe it.

Limbo and indifference brings a void in emotion and action. Other feelings loom larger than they really are. We also focus upon those feelings which stand out against the blankness; and that which we focus on gets bigger. Of course it only seems to get bigger. However, perception is reality; and you can affect you perception and therefore your reality.

That is a long way from “can’t”. Just think of it. See and imagine just how powerful your mind is.

Continue the divorce because of the need of protection, not because you feel a temporary need for a change. Don’t fret or rush things. You will create changes and new avenues of life, and will do so for much better reasons. Do not tie those positive choices to the divorce; keep divorce just business. Your changes will be based upon your beliefs and values. Embrace limbo, walk it’s weird path, and discover it’s meaning.

Journaling can be a helpful tool. Organizing our thoughts and feelings, working through various scenarios, exploring and discovering our values, and so on. We all have an inner dialog. We all have an ego. The written word has a power about it. A permanence. An another entry into our minds.

People gain information in many ways. Reading, hearing, and writing for example. (Books, classroom/workshop, journaling) The latter is in the doing/action realm. We associate that effort, that conscious effort of organizing and putting pen to paper, the permanence of such an act, to elevate it in importance. It must be important if we put forth that kind of effort - goes the unrealized thought process. Of course that is especially true for those who have an affinity for the written word and the acquiring of knowledge in that manner.

An interesting tidbit of journaling’s power exists in its written form, as opposed to an audio recorded diary or journal. Aside from the greater effort to write, one also has recorded it on paper. This allows one to release these thoughts, feelings, and events from their mental grasp and tightly held grip. It is written down, I do not need to firmly remember all these details. Again, the underlying process reveals the power. With us able to mentally let go, to have assurance we will not loose certain things, we actually process, progress, and actually retain that which serves us and release that which does not.

What to specifically write about? The sky’s the limit. And the direction can be whichever way you want it to be.

Personally, I would write factual events and realization, more than feelings. It is along the lines of what we are focused upon. What we are reinforcing. However, one needs to start somewhere and feelings are true, and “feel” powerful and deep. So do not ignore your feelings, allow them to flit away by writing about events with their fleeting nature in mind.

There is a good deal of mental assertiveness, that sword and shield philosophy, one can apply. Yet still have free roaming internal exploration. Heck, you’re in limbo, you might as well make the most if it and explore. All directions do seem to feel the same, don’t they? Have faith, there is a path out. (((Hugs)))

We all require a certain level of understanding before we can let go. Compassion is another value one should work to find and aspire towards. These, along with kindness and other positive traits and beliefs, bolster empathy. For all my life I’ve been blessed (and somewhat cursed at times) with a high level of empathy. I have no problem seeing the many sides of a situation. I can understand, empathize, and even forgive my XW’s bizarre actions. To be clear, I do not know exactly why she did what she did, she doesn’t even know that, yet I can and do see how it is possible for someone to be driven to that extreme.

OnlyBent’s post reminded me of a change management course I took. One of the tools is to look at things from the other side; much like the doctor’s story. As strange as it is, there are positives on both sides of every story; and yes negatives as well. My W running off and abandoning her own four children and taking on OM’s boy as her own, in front of her own children - recall the car accident OM’s son had and how XW was so upset as she was telling her own children how she almost lost a child.

XW’s actions are positive, she became a terrible Mom. Abandoning her children’s lives is one of the best things she could actually do. Perhaps, somewhere, hidden within herself is J, and some weird subconscious pressure/feeling lead her to take that action. Or perhaps not. Or it is just a nice bedtime story I tell myself. Lol. Point is - I have feedback of my viewpoint, my forgiving and empathic view. My kids are doing great! That is a positive, which would be less likely if XW had fought over them or with them. And that would be very much something the lost/past J would have given her life for - her children. (Which she kind of did.)

Now, that doesn’t absolve her of all the actions and choices she made. Life is very tangled and nothing is simple nor straightforward. Empathy requires setting aside one’s ego and being ok with not really knowing the “truth”. For there are many “truths” in any situation, each person seeing things through their lens. Being able to peer alongside someone else is useful and somewhat cool, and can at times get confusing. Having strong moral and deep convictions and beliefs are good and necessary anchors, for you don’t want to get lost yourself. It requires a good deal of openminded-ness as well. An ability and desire to change and evolve for the better.

This doesn’t rewrite out story. It reframes it. Views things in a different light. Like the doctor, seeing from the parents’ side. We flesh out our story, furthering it, with not before realized information. Just something I strengthen while walking about in limbo.

Embrace your limbo.

You are among those who understand and empathize. A very good place to journal.

D


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Originally Posted by OnlyBent
I’ve read somewhere before that forgiveness is really just acceptance.
This is also for SteveLW...Quote from Google: "You forgive someone for you, not for the other person. The other person may have no idea or may not care what has happened so it often doesn't affect them at all. So this is why you do it for you and you alone. Acceptance is more accepting the fact that it happened." To me both of these seem to be acceptance from my point of view. ha!
Originally Posted by OnlyBent
The story about the doctor and the patients, is really just being empathetic. Seeing things through other’s eyes. I’m getting pretty good at it. I’ve tried, but I can’t for the life of me see the actions of STBXW in any kind of positive light though.

Originally Posted by DnJ
OnlyBent’s post reminded me of a change management course I took. One of the tools is to look at things from the other side; much like the doctor’s story. As strange as it is, there are positives on both sides of every story; and yes negatives as well. My W running off and abandoning her own four children and taking on OM’s boy as her own, in front of her own children - recall the car accident OM’s son had and how XW was so upset as she was telling her own children how she almost lost a child.

XW’s actions are positive, she became a terrible Mom. Abandoning her children’s lives is one of the best things she could actually do. Perhaps, somewhere, hidden within herself is J, and some weird subconscious pressure/feeling lead her to take that action. Or perhaps not. Or it is just a nice bedtime story I tell myself. Lol. Point is - I have feedback of my viewpoint, my forgiving and empathic view. My kids are doing great! That is a positive, which would be less likely if XW had fought over them or with them. And that would be very much something the lost/past J would have given her life for - her children. (Which she kind of did.)

Now, that doesn’t absolve her of all the actions and choices she made. Life is very tangled and nothing is simple nor straightforward. Empathy requires setting aside one’s ego and being ok with not really knowing the “truth”. For there are many “truths” in any situation, each person seeing things through their lens. Being able to peer alongside someone else is useful and somewhat cool, and can at times get confusing. Having strong moral and deep convictions and beliefs are good and necessary anchors, for you don’t want to get lost yourself. It requires a good deal of openminded-ness as well. An ability and desire to change and evolve for the better.

This doesn’t rewrite out story. It reframes it. Views things in a different light. Like the doctor, seeing from the parents’ side. We flesh out our story, furthering it, with not before realized information. Just something I strengthen while walking about in limbo.

Embrace your limbo.

You are among those who understand and empathize. A very good place to journal.


That wasn't really the point I was trying to make. But also very good points on how to view things. It's not that its not true, seeing things from another view can help you to understand them better, but the point of the process they focused on was how it can free you from your own guilt/rage/anger, etc. Another example was a man who's younger brother died by being hit by a car. Before it happened, he had told his brother he didn't want him to walk with him so he made him walk alone ahead. All his life he struggled and blamed himself for his brother's death which manifested itself in various ways as an adult. By rewriting the story where he walked beside his brother helped him to release the guilt by creating his own new memory of it. Freeing in a way for him. I'm not sure I'm explaining it correctly as it was a long episode and I'm trying to do it in a few sentences. Ha!

Originally Posted by DnJ
Is the financial workshop online or classroom? How many sessions? Just curious. It never hurts to acquire further knowledge or firm up that which you are already have. And I agree, it will be helpful during divorce and post divorce.

It's online and it's for women that are divorced or going through divorce by Michelle Smith and it helps women understand their financial options as they take control of their own destiny. It's not cheap, but it got some good attention and I have wanted to learn how to take basic finances to the next level (understanding investing, etc).
Originally Posted by DnJ
Originally Posted by Elbereth

It's weird, I am sort of itching to get things moving forward now that I've decided I need to get the D. I can't keep living in this way. I'm tired of living in this limbo. Home doesn't feel like home to me anymore. And I think a part of me wants my own space to heal and to nest and to make my own way forward, no strings attached. Or maybe I'm just feeling this way as its something I can control somewhat...an action I can take to help me.


Limbo is a weird landscape to travel. This path can be difficult and even painful, or much less so, depending upon one’s perception of it. Depending upon their outlook, their choice. Embrace limbo. But how?

Quote
I can't don’t want to keep living in this way.

Small change in wording can have a huge affect internally. This is much more a want than a can’t. That gives you power and choice. And the realization that this weirdness is driven by your feelings.

I totally get how home doesn’t feel like home anymore (for the moment). Feelings are very real and very temporary. Do not make life altering decisions based solely, or mostly, upon them.


Originally Posted by DnJ
Continue the divorce because of the need of protection, not because you feel a temporary need for a change. Don’t fret or rush things. You will create changes and new avenues of life, and will do so for much better reasons. Do not tie those positive choices to the divorce; keep divorce just business. Your changes will be based upon your beliefs and values. Embrace limbo, walk it’s weird path, and discover it’s meaning.

You are right, can't and don't are two different things, and yes, I could, but I choose not too. So I am choosing that if I have to get a D to protect myself, I am ready to just do it. And just like GAL, having my own place is getting my own life going. Right now too much of this home is part of H and the kids. I can't afford to stay even if I wanted too. And it's bigger than I would want by myself. Also, the remodeling projects caused a lot of fights, so I wouldn't want it if we ever get to MR 2.0.

Anyway, I am trying to embrace my journey and my limbo. All good ideas for journaling as well, thank you. I do feel that some of what I am doing on here is journalling after your comments, but I am also being careful not to say too much as it's public. So I think doing this for the support and a written journal for the really private things, might be the way for me to move forward. I'm going to give it a go!

Thanks friends!
El


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
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Hi Elbereth,

Not much to add. Read your update and love all the introspection you’re putting in.

You’re doing an excellent job making sense out of a jumble.

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Originally Posted by Elbereth
... but the point of the process they focused on was how it can free you from your own guilt/rage/anger, etc.

Yes. I found forgiving oneself to be the most difficult.

You are pondering really excellent ideas. I believe a private journal will be most helpful for you.

I’ve been thinking about your question on how to write the entries. I mentioned factually telling of events. However, I have written a few “letters” which were never sent and were never meant to be sent. Your idea of writing as if to someone is also a good exercise.

I enjoy reading your posts. You are doing such a fine job of things.

D


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Good Morning El

The online financial course you are taking sounds interesting and most worthwhile. I really like your desire of taking control of your own destiny. And furthering one’s knowledge of investments and such will be a very good thing.

Proud of you. Much respect.

D


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Thank you. I'm trying to take things one day at a time and logically, and in the best ways to grow or improve myself.

H has been in and out the last few weeks. Most recently I am not aware of where he is. While he is out, there has been very little to no communication. Unlike before, seemed he was at least sending me at least one chat a day (miscellaneous stuff or family stuff). But during these last two times away, very little. So much for Distance and Pursuit. Seems he's full on in distance mode and accepting of mine.

He did communicate a response to the agreement, that he claims less funds taken were used for his A or in ways that were not in my agreement. He sent all kinds of banking records etc, but nothing showed what really happened versus just spending of his normal income. So I sent that back with comments. In addition, he sent me the paperwork that he started for the D, but hasn't filed yet, along with info on how to file. Very bare on content. One key thing that caught my eye is that he had the date of our marriage wrong. He even totally missed our last anniversary. That was painful. And enlightening. Truth is, it really shows how far away he is at the moment. And how important is is for me to just keep the D process moving along (hoping for the agreement as a start).

Younger son has been coming over later than the normal shift day. Not sure if it's just he's lazy about moving his stuff (it is a process from house to house) or if he has feelings about being here with me when his Dad is not around. I'm trying not to read too much into it, but it also happened on our last time...so that has me a bit concerned. But I can't do anything about it except keep my love for him out in the open, and keep the door open. H wants to sell the house in the next few months anyway, and things will change drastically in our living arrangements, so I am trying to not get caught up in the worrying about it. It has been hard as the boys I know love me, but they don't open up to me emotionally like they do with their bio-mom or dad. So it's really hard to know what is going on in their heads about this whole situation. Lastly, I am bothered that H is not always around when his son is here...the days are numbered on when he will be living at home (he's off to college soon) and H should be trying to be with him during his weeks on parenting plan.

Anyway, not much more to journal about right now. One step at a time.

El


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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(((El)))

I don't have a lot to add. You're going through an incredibly painful process but with true grace, dignity, self-awareness, and honor. I am just really impressed and inspired by you.

One thing that caught my eye that was especially impressive is that when you noticed he got the date of your marriage wrong, you acknowledge the hurt-- of course that hurts-- but also are able to not take it personally. You are completely right in that it is just another signal of how lost he is right now.

I know it bothers you that your H isn't being a good dad to your younger son. To me, it would feel like I could take anything, but to do it to your child is enraging... but just like every other aspect of this sitch, you can't do anything about your H's behavior. It is all on him. I think you're doing all you can, being there for him. I guess the only other thing I could possibly recommend would be talking to a child psychologist who has experience in D and see if they have any other suggestions about ways to demonstrate your continued love and presence, and red flags to look for in case things are tough.

Hang in there, E. You've got this.

xoxo May


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Originally Posted by DnJ
Originally Posted by Elbereth
... but the point of the process they focused on was how it can free you from your own guilt/rage/anger, etc.

Yes. I found forgiving oneself to be the most difficult.


D


So true. You can add me to that list. I found that forgiving myself for the mistakes in my marriage, of which I made many, was harder than it was to forgive her of her indiscretions. Like many LBSs I tried to take all of the blame for what she was doing. It was fine people in this forum and other places that had to remind me that what she was doing was her own fault, and that there were dozens of ways she could have better handled my poor behavior. I think as LBSs we forget that the WAS has no excuse for what they are doing. None. Nothing justifies breaking their own vows and stepping out of the MR and being intimate with someone else. If things are so bad they could try working on the marriage, getting the LBS to see how badly they are behaving, or just going and filing for D. It is so much more admirable for someone to end the marriage before beginning a new R with someone new, but as this forum shows so few WASs do it in that order. Most of the time they have already found someone new before they decide to end their MR. Cart before the horse.

So own your mistakes. Admit them. Learn from them. Resolved to be better and do them no more. But then forgive yourself and move forward!


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Oh Elbereth, I hear you on so much of this. I don't want a divorce, but I feel that same itch...if he wants it and has filed, then just rip the band-aid off and get it over with. I need to figure out how to move forward, and maybe I am hearing that in you also. Space to lick wounds and heal. At least this limbo is going in a direction, I guess.

I am not so good at journaling and was thinking about it today, that I need to get better at it. Never did I think I would be writing any of these words down, and yet here we are. I am glad to see you at least thinking of your future and taking the class. I think we have to be proactive and envision a positive future, even if some days are harder than others for me.

You are doing well, it makes my heart happy to see you doing positive things for yourself and making it through this. xo


me: 46 h: 49
m: 24 T: 27
DD1:20 DD2:17 DS:12
BD1: PA for 2 yrs 08/2016
BD2: OW is one of my closest friends 12/2016
BD3: H wants a D 11/2019
Now: He is in the same house, but has filed for divorce.
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Thank you SteveLW, May22, and Oceangl. I am doing my best to take one day at a time, one step at a time, and trying not to get caught up in the little things. And keep the big picture in mind. Yes, Oceangl, I am ready to "rip the bandaid off" and just get it over with. Every day that goes by the itch is getting worse...literally as well as mentally...as all this emotional stress is playing out as an eczema flair-up rash around my neck... He has filled out paperwork, but hadn't filed it...he just passed it to me to look at still thinking that we can do this amicably and without lawyers. I'm not going to settle for that...as he's not even agreed to the post-nup I wanted him to sign for the money he has taken and used towards his A.

Step S18 was moody last night so H and I talked about it last night. H says he's at a loss at what is going on with him and thinks it was some trouble with friends. Yes, the poor kid is already dealing with so much, two households, lost senior year, lost sports, and now parents divorcing. I asked H if he thought the D was also contributing to his moodiness...and he refuses to believe that it will have any effect on S. His selfishness just astounds me. H is like "it will be okay, we all just need to find our own way". Easy for him to say as he's hopping from one life into another of his choosing while the rest of us are forced to deal with a future we didn't want or ask for. But to avoid R talk, I didn't get into it...not sure anything I would have said would have been heard anyway. Poor kid is losing his car (as we losing one car and not getting another one due to the D), he's going to lose his second home (which is much nicer and better than what he has at bio-moms house), and he's already lost a year of his life during his youth. How can he not be affected? I wish S18 would talk to me, but he doesn't share with me his emotions. All I can do is continue like discussed, be there for him however I can be...and show my love and commitment.

I know I am not supposed to stalk the OW, but from social media it appears that her situation is moving along too...where before it appeared the family didn't know, they do now...at least that she wants a D. And she has a son still at home too. Two families destroyed by two selfish people. I feel bad for them too.

I do feel more empowered doing my financial course. I am also starting to try to figure out what assets will be split so that I can also use this new knowledge as part of that process. And setting a real budget for myself and my future. I am also taking time for myself, long walks, and other things I enjoy and working on my resume and portfolio to help ensure I can take care of myself, by myself in my future. But it is hard. I've been emotional and irritated...and just wish I could just skip this hard part and be on my own by now, with everything taken care of for me. Ha! Wishful thinking.

Anyway, thanks for listening to me vent. And for your kind words and good advice. I am not sure what I would do without this forum.

xo
El

Last edited by Elbereth; 04/06/21 04:56 PM.

Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
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Hey El,
So I don't write much on your sitch because every body pretty much has it covered at all times. So there isn't really anything for me to add to it. The only thing I'm going to add because I'm one of very few on here who had to deal with with a non-bio kid with a less than stable bio parent I wasn't in the MR with and less than stable WAS/WS who was the other bio parent. Also my girls are not little. D18 is a senior this year. D17 is a junior.

Girls don't talk as much as you'd like to think they do. They are teenagers first, and girls second. I spent many years in juvenile justice. So dealing with difficult kids is kinda in my nature. I've also been told I have a ridiculous amount of patience. I say this so you know that every convo I had with these girls that I journaled here was preceded and succeeded by many others those were just the fruitful ones.

So the thing about teenagers is they will do their absolute best to appear as if they don't care and that they aren't listening. Sometimes that's true on both counts. Most of the time it's not. Kids hear you. No matter what they hear you. Are they listening or actively listening? More often than not, that's a big fat nope. But what you say does sit in their brain and if you keep saying it over and over and over eventually it clicks. One day it'll go on like a light switch.

I spent a lot of time saying to my girls over and over and over again that I was going to be ok and that they were going to be ok. That H didn't get to determine if we were a family or not. We make that choice. He doesn't get to dictate how we feel about men or relationships. He doesn't get to dictate how we feel about any of this. We get to feel any way we want. We get to be a family if we choose. We get to be sad or angry if we want to. I said over and over how much I loved them and I was there for them in any way. Even if their feelings were messy. Even if they were mad at me for standing. Even if they thought I was door mat. (which they did). Even if they loved him and hated him at the same time. Or me. Or each other. That I was there, zero judgement. The only thing I asked was if I took the time to listen they needed to take the time to listen to me after they spilled their guts. They didn't have to like it. Believe it. Agree with it. They just had to listen.

I had no ability to passively parent either one of them in the middle of this. Especially the one that I didn't give life to. S18 will not spill his guts simply because you ask him to, S20 won't either. Just keep reiterating that you love them. That you will be a family regardless. That your life after D plan has room for them in it. That you will do what you can to be a rock in their life if they need it, and that you want to be a part of their life in what ever capacity they want. And that you understand how complicated and messy that feels right now and if they need distance you understand that too. Don't just do this in actions do this in words too. They won't say much now unless they feel absolutely compelled to. But in time you will likely remain a bonus parent.

As far as OW goes. Don't torture yourself with internet sleuthing. The sooner you can put here in your rearview the better. She isn't worth more emotional energy than your pity.

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El, you sound so balanced and strong right now. I think you have been given such excellent advice and also seem like a plucky, growth-minded individual that is going to naturally fill in the gaps (the financial class you are taking has piqued my interest, thanks for sharing).

Apologies for the thread hijack, but I wanted to say thank you to Wayfarer for the absolutely stunning and insightful post. WF, you are such an amazing human being and your wisdom, compassion and beautiful perspective is an honor to read. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and approach, your family is so, so lucky to have you. As are we as readers on this forum.

Hugs to you both.

xx
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Thank you Wayfarer...it is so helpful to hear your take on my struggles with the step-parenting and step-kids. I don't have anyone in my life that is also a step-parent...so that has been hard for me now and ever since I became a parent. I am a child of divorce and I have an amazing step-dad that is more my dad then my bio-dad. But I didn't realize how hard being a step-parent would be until I became one. And my H hasn't really been as supportive of my efforts as he could be. I know he appreciated me doing it, but he didn't allow me to help raise the boys...shutting down my ideas or feelings even in front of them. I think he took every opinion, idea, feeling as somehow me saying he was/is a poor father. Anyway, I digress...and at this point, it doesn't even matter as they will be off to college and living different lives then what we all had in our home. And I will have more control over making my own relationship with them away from him...hopefully. Like you say, all I can do is keep being there for them and let them know I love them and want to be there for them. Thank you for your advice and insights. I have read your whole sitch and I admire you so much! So, thank you again for your perspective. It means a lot to me!

And Sage, you are soooooo right about Wayfarer...so I am happy to have my string 'hijacked'! And happy you stopped by too and shared your thoughts on my sitch. smile

I'm struggling even though I know I am doing the right things... The next few months are going to be soooo hard... Packing up, moving, divorcing and disrupting our younger sons life even more than this pandemic has. H is so selfish and blind...he just thinks 'kids are resiliant' and it's really no big deal what he is doing. I'm trying to be strong but it is still hard. Even though I know I will be okay. Just because I am strong enough to handle pain, doesn't mean I deserve it.

El

PS. I know I shouldn't stalk the OW. I don't feel anything towards her...as I cannot even see why he is into her (I think he's stuck in the past and has no idea of who this current version of her is). Somehow it just keeps reminding me how lost he is. She doesn't have anything on me. And she is getting this current version of H...the one that I don't like, that has no integrity, who is selfish, who is lost. I had the best of him. And when I say I'm sorry for them, I'm sorry for her husband and kids. Not for her. She's just as messed up as my H.


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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One more thing I didn’t mention this am. Last night the three of us had dinner together for the first time in a long time. And all H could talk about was how s18 will lose the car in a few weeks and we’ll need to “deal with” the remaining vehicles, and how things will change with selling the house etc. Like that’s exciting stuff to finally sit together and discuss and look forward too. Poor kid is like, okay, that’s fine. I don’t even think it’s clicked in that when he comes back the next time he may need to start packing up his room. I have no idea even if H has a place lined up that can include his son. He’s just oblivious on how his decisions are disrupting all of our lives. It made me so angry and depressed last night. frown

I know I can have a place for our son until the fall at least. So I am at least taking him into account while H can’t wait to start his new life with his AP. Trying not to get sucked into his behavior and the drama but it’s so hard...especially when it comes to the kids. I wish I could make up for both of their bio parents. I’m so worried about them having healthy relationships when both of their bio parents have shown so little respect for their partners.

One day at a time. I can only control my actions.


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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Hi Elbereth,

I respect you for taking the step-parent role seriously. Some parents don't prioritize their biological kids, and here you are prioritizing kids that aren't even yours biologically. That's brilliant and beautiful.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
I know he appreciated me doing it, but he didn't allow me to help raise the boys...shutting down my ideas or feelings even in front of them. I think he took every opinion, idea, feeling as somehow me saying he was/is a poor father.

I'm ashamed to say I treated one of my ex-GFs similar to the way your ex-H treated you. I resented her trying to be my kids' step-mom. Is it possible, instead of feeling threatened, that dynamic was at play in your relationship? I mean to say he wanted you as "wife" but not as "step-mom" and you taking on that role bothered him? In my case, some of that ex-GF's values weren't in-line with my own.

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So I just wanted to address a couple of thigs.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
But I didn't realize how hard being a step-parent would be until I became one. And my H hasn't really been as supportive of my efforts as he could be. I know he appreciated me doing it, but he didn't allow me to help raise the boys...shutting down my ideas or feelings even in front of them. I think he took every opinion, idea, feeling as somehow me saying he was/is a poor father.


It is hard being a step parent. Honestly its been one of my biggest parenting challenges period.

I made it very clear early in our relationship that H had two choices. That if our relationship was to be so serious that we would move in together and plan for marriage I would be an extra parent or I would be nothing. I would not be a nanny to his D. I dug my heels in on what I would and wouldn't tolerate. I even went so far as to say that if he wanted to play games with this stuff that I'd be perfectly fine parenting my child solely but he needed to understand that would involve me essentially ignoring his D. I would not provide rides, meals, homework help or any other nanny duties, and I had a strong enough support system that I required nothing of him if he didn't want to co-parent with me.

I also absolutely refused to parent the way he parented. If he was being a crappy dad I had absolutely no qualms about pointing it out. I would never undermine him with his child in the moment but more often then not I'd go back in and do band-aid parenting once she had calmed down. And I drew very clear lines with his authoritarian parenting style and my D. I've spent my entire adult life trying to be the best parent I can be I wasn't going to allow him to undo that. All of this resulted in a lot of fights. Fights where he pitted me against my daughter, pitted me against his daughter, pitted our girls against each other. And I would call him out every time. It took many, many fights and years of refusing to back down before H finally accepted that maybe his parenting style wasn't the most effective and that sometimes he made parenting choices on what served him best not what was best choice for his daughter to learn and grow.

No body wants to hear they're being a less than stellar parent. Nor do they want to hear that they are the bad guy in a situation, but I was always of the mindset that we either bare down work through this to become one family unit no matter how rough it got or there was no point in being in a relationship. The kids come part and parcel, it's all or nothing. We had a lot of bumps and bruises working out how to parent each other's kids, how to parent with each other, and how to parent with our exes. But we got through it.

I will until the day I die feel that romantic relationship can't exist on an island away from someone's children. In my world separation of spouse and step-parent is telling both the children and your spouse you aren't a family nor will you ever be one. You're creating a competition for affection, attention, and a designing a whole lot of animosity out of the gate. I genuinely question the motives of a person who tries to do this.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
I'm struggling even though I know I am doing the right things... The next few months are going to be soooo hard... Packing up, moving, divorcing and disrupting our younger sons life even more than this pandemic has. H is so selfish and blind...he just thinks 'kids are resiliant' and it's really no big deal what he is doing. I'm trying to be strong but it is still hard. Even though I know I will be okay. Just because I am strong enough to handle pain, doesn't mean I deserve it.


My H did the same thing in the heart of the A. He even had the audacity to get angry with his D and ask her why she couldn't just be happy for him. He looked a 15 year old in the face and wanted to know why she couldn't just be happy for him when he was completely blowing up the only stability she ever had in her life.

He also repeatedly told me that he couldn't in good conscious make an effort to work on our MR for the kids, as they would be moving out soon, and it was our relationship not theirs. He refused to acknowledge that we were a family.

He didn't even bother with the "kids are resilient" excuse. He, at that time, truly believed his happiness was of the utmost importance and his D would just get over it (it being you know our marriage and family) and adapt. Oh and if not, oh well. She can live with her mom.

Now looking back on that he hates himself. And has all but begged on his knees for forgiveness from these girls. But these WS/WAS are truly something else, I tell you. I just don't know what level of affair fog, MLC, narcissism, what ever it is to be so tunneled that you genuinely don't care about the feelings and well being of your own children.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
I know I can have a place for our son until the fall at least. So I am at least taking him into account while H can’t wait to start his new life with his AP. Trying not to get sucked into his behavior and the drama but it’s so hard...especially when it comes to the kids.
You are an amazing bonus parent and I can completely understand how hard it is to not to want to at the very least dig in, shut him down or all out fight for the sake of the kids.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
I wish I could make up for both of their bio parents. I’m so worried about them having healthy relationships when both of their bio parents have shown so little respect for their partners.
The thing is we can't control this so we can't worry about it. All we can do is be the best versions of us we can be, and do the most we can to support them.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
I respect you for taking the step-parent role seriously. Some parents don't prioritize their biological kids, and here you are prioritizing kids that aren't even yours biologically. That's brilliant and beautiful.

El this is so, so true. What you are doing for S18 is brilliant and beautiful.

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Being a child of divorce and experiencing my moms few boyfriends that were not good to us (whom she got rid of when it became obvious), I knew from a child’s point of view how important the role was. So, I didn’t enter into the relationship lightly. And I admitted I wasn’t sure how to do the job but I was open to trying. In marrying him, I was also marrying his kids. He made it clear they were a priority in his life and he verbally supported my involvement. He told me to play a larger role like being part of discipline etc, but the problems arose when his actions didn’t support his words. So I’d back off and stay out of it, and if he was stressed he’d push it on me to handle, but then he’d again shut me down, do the opposite, etc. After time the kids really didn’t listen to me unless he was out of town. Our parenting styles are different. So I know some of that played a role. But one has to realize there is no rule book or instruction manual on raising kids...so being open to trying new things is a good thing. Instead of considering my approaches, he shut them down then complained to me about how the kids were not acting the way they should. But he would never shift his actions to the shifting tactics the kids throw out. He also allowed them to walk all over me. I love them and overall they are wonderful kids, but they do not show me as much respect as I would have liked as a result of my H’s actions.

I’ll never really know or understand why H acted this way towards my relationship with the kids. But he made it clear in words and actions that he wanted me to be a co-parent to them but sabotaged my actions. It was constant confusion for me. And frustration. I’ve struggled to figure out where I fit with them. All three of them. The older son at one point treated me really poorly. I finally had a very honest discussion with him about how I was in his life by choice...that unlike his bio parents, I could choose to leave. After that things shifted with him and now he shows more love and respect towards me than the younger one. The younger one has been harder as he’s really a mamma’s boy and very sensitive and for many years his bio mom tried to turn him away from me or used guilt with him to try to affect our relationship. So, even though I know he loves me, there’s always been this emotional wall with him. I’ve always held out in my mind that with emotional maturity that both boys would fully realize my love, sacrifice, and commitment to them. But the upcoming D does have me afraid that I will lose them too, as with this age, kids are pulling away from their parents anyway and having my life separate from their fathers life will make things even more complicated. But as Wayfarer suggests, I can only keep trying, telling them I love love them, and keep my door open to them. I can’t control anything else.

I think it’s great that you recognize your behavior towards your ex-GF trying to step-mom. The way I see it, parenting is hard work so why would you want to do it alone? And all of us have been kids once and have ideas that might be worth trying. Kind of like DBing, find what works and keep doing it. Right? Why would anyone want a relationship with someone who didn’t make their kids a priority? I feel that is the most admirable thing, and realizing how very hard being a step-parent is, I’m surprised by how little support we get from our spouses when trying our best to help and to love kids that are not our own. Throw in ex-partner (other bio parent) drama and it’s the hardest job ever. In your situation, you say “values weren’t aligned with yours” but if that is the case why would you even want to have a relationship with someone whose values are not aligned? I have a feeling that it may not have been your values but parenting style you have versus hers. My values were aligned with my H, it’s just my parenting style was different. I was raised differently, not better, just differently. And I think he felt like my suggestions were attacks on him personally and he’d rather keep his pride then have one of my ideas work better than his. It’s like being in a team sport but you keep playing as if you are the only player. Makes no sense to me. Do what works. Who cares who’s idea it was?

In the end, I think part of his crisis is that he’s angry that his kids are not what he hoped they would be. He looks at other people’s kids and wonders why they are so much better in his eyes then his own. But he was the one that got in the way of changing their behaviors and he was the one who enabled the bad behaviors by not putting an end to them. He wouldn’t allow any help from anyone, so what they are now is of his doing and he can’t seem to admit that. Blames other outside forces or just says “they are kids”. But strangely those other kids seem to have turned out better based on luck? confused

Anyway, I hope that I’m not offending you by my statements. I’m just trying to express my feelings in my situation and not trying to assume yours was the same. Parenting is hard. I admire you for being the parent you are!

El


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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Originally Posted by Wayfarer
It is hard being a step parent. Honestly its been one of my biggest parenting challenges period.

I made it very clear early in our relationship that H had two choices. That if our relationship was to be so serious that we would move in together and plan for marriage I would be an extra parent or I would be nothing. I would not be a nanny to his D. I dug my heels in on what I would and wouldn't tolerate. I even went so far as to say that if he wanted to play games with this stuff that I'd be perfectly fine parenting my child solely but he needed to understand that would involve me essentially ignoring his D. I would not provide rides, meals, homework help or any other nanny duties, and I had a strong enough support system that I required nothing of him if he didn't want to co-parent with me.

I also absolutely refused to parent the way he parented. If he was being a crappy dad I had absolutely no qualms about pointing it out. I would never undermine him with his child in the moment but more often then not I'd go back in and do band-aid parenting once she had calmed down. And I drew very clear lines with his authoritarian parenting style and my D. I've spent my entire adult life trying to be the best parent I can be I wasn't going to allow him to undo that. All of this resulted in a lot of fights. Fights where he pitted me against my daughter, pitted me against his daughter, pitted our girls against each other. And I would call him out every time. It took many, many fights and years of refusing to back down before H finally accepted that maybe his parenting style wasn't the most effective and that sometimes he made parenting choices on what served him best not what was best choice for his daughter to learn and grow.

No body wants to hear they're being a less than stellar parent. Nor do they want to hear that they are the bad guy in a situation, but I was always of the mindset that we either bare down work through this to become one family unit no matter how rough it got or there was no point in being in a relationship. The kids come part and parcel, it's all or nothing. We had a lot of bumps and bruises working out how to parent each other's kids, how to parent with each other, and how to parent with our exes. But we got through it.

I will until the day I die feel that romantic relationship can't exist on an island away from someone's children. In my world separation of spouse and step-parent is telling both the children and your spouse you aren't a family nor will you ever be one. You're creating a competition for affection, attention, and a designing a whole lot of animosity out of the gate. I genuinely question the motives of a person who tries to do this.


I wish I had had your advice before I committed to this family. I think I would have have acted very much that way if I had a child of my own and I had some experience as a parent under my belt. But since I didn't, and had no one in my life to help guide me, I was naive to believe that when he told me he wanted me to be involved and coparent the kids, that he meant it. I am a strong person and I did try to demand what I needed and tried to tell him my thoughts away from the kids, etc, but nothing I did satisfied H...in a way that would allow him to accept my help. In the end, I do and did feel like more of a maid and cook and less of a parent that I wanted to be.

Originally Posted by Wayfarer
My H did the same thing in the heart of the A. He even had the audacity to get angry with his D and ask her why she couldn't just be happy for him. He looked a 15 year old in the face and wanted to know why she couldn't just be happy for him when he was completely blowing up the only stability she ever had in her life.

He also repeatedly told me that he couldn't in good conscious make an effort to work on our MR for the kids, as they would be moving out soon, and it was our relationship not theirs. He refused to acknowledge that we were a family.

He didn't even bother with the "kids are resilient" excuse. He, at that time, truly believed his happiness was of the utmost importance and his D would just get over it (it being you know our marriage and family) and adapt. Oh and if not, oh well. She can live with her mom.

Now looking back on that he hates himself. And has all but begged on his knees for forgiveness from these girls. But these WS/WAS are truly something else, I tell you. I just don't know what level of affair fog, MLC, narcissism, what ever it is to be so tunneled that you genuinely don't care about the feelings and well being of your own children.


I see so much of my H in the way your H acted. I just hope that he also realizes someday what he has done and tries to make amends with his kids. I am also confused at how they can be so tunneled that they don't care/can't see/don't want to know what the impacts of their decisions are having on their families and kids. I do hope he comes around. Knowing yours did gives me hope. What was it that finally had your H see what he'd done in that area? Did you have to point it out to him while in reconciliation or did he realize it on his own? Or did his D point it out?

I really don't know what I am doing with parenting, I'm just trying my best...flying by the seat of my pants! With lots of holes and tears in them too boot! lol I'm not sure if what I am doing is brilliant and/or beautiful, or a huge waste of ten years of my life...leaving me with an H and kids who didn't appreciate me and will move on without me. But they are the only kids I will ever have. I hold onto that and my love for them and try to hope for the best outcome.

Thanks,
El


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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Hello, me again. Just had a convo with H and had to write about it. I know I shouldn't initiate R convos, but as he wants to put the house on the market and get the D rolling, I am kind of getting frustrated with this whole limbo thing as I mentioned earlier. I asked if he has discussed with S18 about how he will be packing up his room when he comes back for his next visit. He says no. I ask do you have an apartment lined up? He says no. He says he may stay in AirBnBs for a bit, and even so, he may move out of town. So I tell him that I have something lined up that can include S18 until Fall for sure, and he says "I didn't ask you to do that" and I said, "I didn't do it for you". OMG?! His timeline the the told us to plan for is six weeks and he's not acted on a thing!

He says, for so long you kept wanting to postpone things. Why are you in a rush now? I said that every day that goes by he's spending OUR money on his A. And as I put everything into this marriage, I have very little saved so I want financial security and I don't want to pay for his A. He asks if this is the BEST time to put the house on the market (not including any emotional stuff). I said yes, but you can't disregard the emotional stuff. Truth is that this is the WORST time for me and his son. But that doesn't matter...that he has made a choice that is best for him. So I said let's just get it over with. That I am making accommodations for our S18, let's just get it over with so we can try our best to move forward. I want a timeline. Let's just do it.

He still doesn't seem to realize that he is destroying our family unit. That his actions have repercussions. That if he really cared about me and/or his son, he'd be focusing on our family. Instead, he is so ready to just walk away from all of it. He doesn't even want much stuff. He wants to simplify....really? He drove most of our family purchases. He insisted on things to be as they are. I tried to make things more organized, structured, and less stressful, and I tried to co-parent and help with that stress, and he fought me every step of the way. Now he can't wait to get away from all the projects, his responsibilities and the mess that is our life.

I almost want him to go move in with her...I want him to see that she doesn't make him happy. That it's all HIM...that he has to do the work on HIMSELF. That he can't run from things...that they are always there because they are inside of you. I wanted to stand for him, I did, but I don't know if I can anymore... I'm not in a rush to find someone new, but I refuse to wait for him to come to his senses. I'm in my 50s. My time is short in finding a partner to spend my life with. I don't want to rush into anything, but I also don't want to wait for something that I don't know if will ever happen. Maybe this is just me dropping the emotional rope a bit too far...but I honestly don't know if I ever want a life with him again. Sure, there is a part of me that will always love a part of him...but in looking at reality, I deserve so much more than what he is willing to give. Let her have him. He's an A-hole. Can't wait for them to live together and burst the long-distance fantasy bubble they have going.


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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Elbereth, personally I think you're still trying to hold on too tight. It's almost if by rushing him he'll have second thoughts. I think your statement on wanting him to move in with OW proves this.

Elbereth, lots of LBSs come here and try to fool themselves into believing that they are doing things to move things along in the name of "moving on".

Here's the thing... What is the rush? It's waited this long why can't it wait longer? So he had a timeline and he is reneging on that timeline. Yep, that's about 99.9% of all WSs. Their follow through on things is awful. Vets here used to always point out that it is usually the LBS that ends up filling for D, or moving it forward, etc.

As far as the financial side, I get that. But I wonder if the fact he's spending money on her is what it really bugging you? I can understand you feeling that way, but if you're rushing things to end that I think you'll be surprised. Plus all you need to do is document everything and get that to your lawyer. Most places will take spending into account from the point of separation. So his spending, if properly documented, will likely come out of his half of community property.

One last word of warning, if you're rushing things to end the pain, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed. Lots of LBSs rush things for the wrong reasons and end up D'd and miserable. This is why you should be working on yourself, dealing with your emotional baggage related to him, and learning to move forward happy and healthy. This last post concerns me because it's all about him. Where is your GAL? Where are the self improvements? Have you been working on emotional detachment?

Elbereth, I forget, are you in IC?

Last edited by SteveLW; 04/10/21 02:31 PM.

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Good Morning Elbereth

Once a spouse reaches the point of walk away spouse, they’ve already internally thrown away so much. The external actions - bomb drop, the aftermath, and fantasy life - is what we then see. Of course we are shocked that someone could flip a switch and become the almost exact opposite of who they were were. The truth is their shift was slow and happened over quite some time. All internal emotional pressures with very little to do with us the left behind spouse.

Kids also get tossed aside. Many many WAS become terrible parents. My XW threw away her children. Her words during her surprise exit speech at Thanksgiving Dinner to the whole family including extended parents, as she dropped the bomb and moved out - “You get the house and cars. And the kids, unless you don’t want them, then I guess I’ll have to take them.”

They have checked out and become terrible parents. They are lost souls.

We LBS, you, can only control you. You become the best parent, step-parent, person, you will be. Not can be, will be!

Everyday we can grow and be better. Become the best you will be. When your last breath is exhaled you will have become the best you can be, until then work to be what you will become.

S18 and S20 both have significant upheaval in their young lives. Consider how mixed up this is to you, and you are 51 with a lifetime of experience. These lads need some guidance and dear old Dad ain’t the guy to step up. And it sounds like he wasn’t much able too before either.

Remember, you control you. It is excellent that you love the boys. And I understand the awkwardness of the relationship between you and each of them. Make that R stronger and better.

Your H, like my XW, is off on his fantasy to live with unicorns and fairies. My XW said she was willing to lose her kids for her chance at happiness. I suspect your H is similarly fogged and lost. It shows in his behaviour towards the boys. He has no plan nor real idea aside from some Airbnb or move out of town or God knows what. Six weeks and H hasn’t done a thing. H is driven and follows his emotions right now. And emotions make for some really poor decisions, especially life altering decisions.

Notice how H got all mad when you mentioned you had something lined up that would look after son until at least fall.

Which leads to my advice and suggestions from my experience. You control you. Take the actions you will.

Do have a place that can include son. No need to explain it to H.

Talk to “your” boys. They are 18 and 20. Adults. Step-sons. Treat them as such. Treat them as friends and be their Mom. I sense you got the loving Mom thing down pat. As kids turns into adults they need to push away and find their own feet. It is a difficult time for a parent; as if any time is a walk in the park. Aside from actually walking in the park. smile

Speak with them as equals. Not to them, rather with them. Be open about their father’s interaction. And his lack thereof. Assure them you will be there for them. Answer questions honestly and age appropriately, which given their adult age will be pretty uncomfortable I suspect. They need answers and guidance, and you have the golden opportunity to provide for them. Of course they have to walk their path as well in all this, so a gentle approach will be required.

Never demonize their Dad. That is as much for you as it is for them. You job is not to facilitate the relationship between Dad and his boys, your job is not to destroy it. That goes for any parent, step or bio matters not. You are responsibly for your side of the relationship between you and each son; Dad is responsible for his.

I’ve walked this razor’s edge. Been yelled at, lash out to, and had to accept much more than I deserved from my kids. You see, kids cannot risk loosing their walk away parent. These poor youngsters need to express their emotions and they cannot tell dear old Dad what they think and feel. So, you will get the fallout aimed at you. It helps if you understand why the kids need to do what they need to do.

In time, as they, as we all do, grow up, they will express themselves clearly to Dad. And you will be fine and loved. It is interesting, the strong stable parent is always loved deeply, especially while the child is lashing out. That shows just how much they trust and feel comforted by you. They can express their feelings and know you will always be there.

Those are just a few ideas or goals to keep in mind as you journey forward along your path. I found most people have the desire to walk the needed and difficult path, they just needed clarity on the noble goals and direction to walk.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
I wanted to stand for him, I did, but I don't know if I can anymore... I'm not in a rush to find someone new, but I refuse to wait for him to come to his senses.

We all start out that way. Standing is our default, a byproduct, until we heal enough to stand down. That is when standing really starts.

You don’t stand for H, or for your M. You stand for you!

Stand for you. Three words with a world of meaning.

You. Integrity, honour, honesty, compassion, kindness, forgiveness, loyalty, empathy, understanding, vows, and so on. Those tenets and core beliefs of life far eclipse H or M. There is an incredible strength when standing for yourself and your good noble values. It becomes a way of life. One lives to be the best they will be.

You might divorce, might have another relationship, or might not. Yet, you can and will stand for you.

Do the requisite business side of your situation to ensure your financial protection and security.

Do the requisite inner work to grow and strengthen your emotional, intellectual, and spiritual self.

Each path is necessary. Each path is different, and has different reasons and goals.

The latter path is much more a life long pursuit. One can get wrapped up in the need and rush to acquire financial security and couple their emotional path to a similar tact. Be patient and do your inner work slow and well, for it will serve you a lifetime.

D


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Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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Originally Posted by SteveLW
Elbereth, personally I think you're still trying to hold on too tight. It's almost if by rushing him he'll have second thoughts. I think your statement on wanting him to move in with OW proves this.


Hi SteveLW, thank you for your perspective. It does give me things to think about. I do not feel I am hoping he will have second thoughts or that I am pressuring him. I mean, I am not looking at it that way. Sure, I want him to realize the mistake he has made for my own pride, but I honestly do not feel like he will come around anytime soon regardless of what I do. One big thing that has me very impatient is that my H has problems finishing things. All things. Work, projects, everything. Even his closest friends tell him and he knows it but he can't help himself. I feel I am another unfinished thing in his life. He's already moved on to the next thing. He also doesn't deal with stress well and is forever overwhelmed (as if no one else has stress). I could wait it out...sure, let him stall, but then I feel I would just be going along while he's having a life with someone else, and I am in limbo while my assets that we share disappear. My fears financially really shifted to the max level when I discovered that he has already embedded himself legally and financially with this OW. So, yes, I want to protect myself financially...and yes, it's the best timing for selling the house (which is our most valuable asset), and yes, I want to be able to move forward myself and focus on my life (and my step-sons) instead of waiting for him to decide what he is doing. I can't control him, but I don't have to sit by and let him stall either...I have some influence is getting the process going. So that is what I am trying to do. I maybe could have done a better job at it, but that was my goal.

I've discussed all of this with my L and it has said that up until the separation (as my L sees it in our timeline as already in the past), funds will be looked at for what he has spent. But after that, it gets much harder in my state, so my L is also pressuring me to get the ball rolling as well as account for some of the known spending thus far. But he's hiding the thing with the OW, so I expect that he is hiding more. This will be my second D. Financially, I am devastated. So every little cent I can save/get matters. I put everything into both of my marriages. You think I would have learned but I didn't...I really have very little of my own, separate from our shared assets. So, yes, I'm afraid...and financially I should be. I'm not in good shape.

Originally Posted by SteveLW
One last word of warning, if you're rushing things to end the pain, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed. Lots of LBSs rush things for the wrong reasons and end up D'd and miserable. This is why you should be working on yourself, dealing with your emotional baggage related to him, and learning to move forward happy and healthy. This last post concerns me because it's all about him. Where is your GAL? Where are the self improvements? Have you been working on emotional detachment? Elbereth, I forget, are you in IC?


I agree, this last post WAS all about him. I am trying very hard to in the GAL area. I am getting out for long walks that allow me to think, plan and dream, I take hot baths, I hang out with friends, I am doing a financial course to help me learn how to manage what money I will have left (and work with an investor to help it grow), and I'm working on my portfolio to expand my business prospects. I'm reading a lot of self-help books too. I'm getting exercise, I'm eating well, and I've been doing a lot of trips to the doctors to get my health back. I feel frustrated and sad at what is happening, and it's hard and it [censored], but I am functioning...I am moving forward, I am planning my future. I'm not waiting around for him or asking him to change his mind anymore. I hope this means I am doing the right things? At least I'm trying...but...I am still stalking the OW on social...and I know I should stop. Soon I will.

As for IC, I'm in between at the moment. But planning to do more FOR SURE. I agree that it's important. I am doing everything I can to move forward happy and healthy regardless of what happens with H. Anyway, thank you for your perspective and suggestions. I am really trying to be logical about my situation, and I am trying to do as much of the work on myself as I can too.

El


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
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Originally Posted by DnJ
Talk to “your” boys. They are 18 and 20. Adults. Step-sons. Treat them as such. Treat them as friends and be their Mom. I sense you got the loving Mom thing down pat. As kids turns into adults they need to push away and find their own feet. It is a difficult time for a parent; as if any time is a walk in the park. Aside from actually walking in the park. smile

Speak with them as equals. Not to them, rather with them. Be open about their father’s interaction. And his lack thereof. Assure them you will be there for them. Answer questions honestly and age appropriately, which given their adult age will be pretty uncomfortable I suspect. They need answers and guidance, and you have the golden opportunity to provide for them. Of course they have to walk their path as well in all this, so a gentle approach will be required.

Never demonize their Dad. That is as much for you as it is for them. You job is not to facilitate the relationship between Dad and his boys, your job is not to destroy it. That goes for any parent, step or bio matters not. You are responsibly for your side of the relationship between you and each son; Dad is responsible for his.

I’ve walked this razor’s edge. Been yelled at, lash out to, and had to accept much more than I deserved from my kids. You see, kids cannot risk loosing their walk away parent. These poor youngsters need to express their emotions and they cannot tell dear old Dad what they think and feel. So, you will get the fallout aimed at you. It helps if you understand why the kids need to do what they need to do.

In time, as they, as we all do, grow up, they will express themselves clearly to Dad. And you will be fine and loved. It is interesting, the strong stable parent is always loved deeply, especially while the child is lashing out. That shows just how much they trust and feel comforted by you. They can express their feelings and know you will always be there.

Those are just a few ideas or goals to keep in mind as you journey forward along your path. I found most people have the desire to walk the needed and difficult path, they just needed clarity on the noble goals and direction to walk.


This advice (and the advice from Wayfarer) is so helpful...thank you. Yeah, it's a hard path. I have always done my best to not demonize their bio mom and I will do the same with their dad. I don't want to hurt their relationship at all...I just want to be sure I am supporting them and keep my relationship with them.

Originally Posted by DnJ
Originally Posted by Elbereth
I wanted to stand for him, I did, but I don't know if I can anymore... I'm not in a rush to find someone new, but I refuse to wait for him to come to his senses.


We all start out that way. Standing is our default, a byproduct, until we heal enough to stand down. That is when standing really starts.

You don’t stand for H, or for your M. You stand for you!

Stand for you. Three words with a world of meaning.

You. Integrity, honour, honesty, compassion, kindness, forgiveness, loyalty, empathy, understanding, vows, and so on. Those tenets and core beliefs of life far eclipse H or M. There is an incredible strength when standing for yourself and your good noble values. It becomes a way of life. One lives to be the best they will be.

You might divorce, might have another relationship, or might not. Yet, you can and will stand for you.

Do the requisite business side of your situation to ensure your financial protection and security.

Do the requisite inner work to grow and strengthen your emotional, intellectual, and spiritual self.

Each path is necessary. Each path is different, and has different reasons and goals.

The latter path is much more a life long pursuit. One can get wrapped up in the need and rush to acquire financial security and couple their emotional path to a similar tact. Be patient and do your inner work slow and well, for it will serve you a lifetime.


Thank you for this. I am trying to do just that. I may be rushing the D, but I am not rushing the inner work. I am of the type that feels that one has to learn from their mistakes and I want to grow and learn and be a better future partner. I don't think anyone can be happy if they don't find that happiness within. I want it to serve me a lifetime. DnJ, have you thought of writing a book? You do have a way with words! So inspiring...thank you!


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Originally Posted by Elbereth
Originally Posted by SteveLW
Elbereth, personally I think you're still trying to hold on too tight. It's almost if by rushing him he'll have second thoughts. I think your statement on wanting him to move in with OW proves this.


Hi SteveLW, thank you for your perspective. It does give me things to think about. I do not feel I am hoping he will have second thoughts or that I am pressuring him. I mean, I am not looking at it that way. Sure, I want him to realize the mistake he has made for my own pride, but I honestly do not feel like he will come around anytime soon regardless of what I do. One big thing that has me very impatient is that my H has problems finishing things. All things. Work, projects, everything. Even his closest friends tell him and he knows it but he can't help himself. I feel I am another unfinished thing in his life. He's already moved on to the next thing. He also doesn't deal with stress well and is forever overwhelmed (as if no one else has stress). I could wait it out...sure, let him stall, but then I feel I would just be going along while he's having a life with someone else, and I am in limbo while my assets that we share disappear. My fears financially really shifted to the max level when I discovered that he has already embedded himself legally and financially with this OW. So, yes, I want to protect myself financially...and yes, it's the best timing for selling the house (which is our most valuable asset), and yes, I want to be able to move forward myself and focus on my life (and my step-sons) instead of waiting for him to decide what he is doing. I can't control him, but I don't have to sit by and let him stall either...I have some influence is getting the process going. So that is what I am trying to do. I maybe could have done a better job at it, but that was my goal.

I've discussed all of this with my L and it has said that up until the separation (as my L sees it in our timeline as already in the past), funds will be looked at for what he has spent. But after that, it gets much harder in my state, so my L is also pressuring me to get the ball rolling as well as account for some of the known spending thus far. But he's hiding the thing with the OW, so I expect that he is hiding more. This will be my second D. Financially, I am devastated. So every little cent I can save/get matters. I put everything into both of my marriages. You think I would have learned but I didn't...I really have very little of my own, separate from our shared assets. So, yes, I'm afraid...and financially I should be. I'm not in good shape.

Originally Posted by SteveLW
One last word of warning, if you're rushing things to end the pain, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed. Lots of LBSs rush things for the wrong reasons and end up D'd and miserable. This is why you should be working on yourself, dealing with your emotional baggage related to him, and learning to move forward happy and healthy. This last post concerns me because it's all about him. Where is your GAL? Where are the self improvements? Have you been working on emotional detachment? Elbereth, I forget, are you in IC?


I agree, this last post WAS all about him. I am trying very hard to in the GAL area. I am getting out for long walks that allow me to think, plan and dream, I take hot baths, I hang out with friends, I am doing a financial course to help me learn how to manage what money I will have left (and work with an investor to help it grow), and I'm working on my portfolio to expand my business prospects. I'm reading a lot of self-help books too. I'm getting exercise, I'm eating well, and I've been doing a lot of trips to the doctors to get my health back. I feel frustrated and sad at what is happening, and it's hard and it [censored], but I am functioning...I am moving forward, I am planning my future. I'm not waiting around for him or asking him to change his mind anymore. I hope this means I am doing the right things? At least I'm trying...but...I am still stalking the OW on social...and I know I should stop. Soon I will.

As for IC, I'm in between at the moment. But planning to do more FOR SURE. I agree that it's important. I am doing everything I can to move forward happy and healthy regardless of what happens with H. Anyway, thank you for your perspective and suggestions. I am really trying to be logical about my situation, and I am trying to do as much of the work on myself as I can too.

El


Elbereth, very good stuff here. I guess my only concern for you is to not rush this through with the thought that it will end your pain sooner. I'm a proponent, as you know, of setting a dropdead date. On that date move forward with the D with no looking back and no regrets. But it has to be long enough out that the LBS can work through all of the emotional baggage they have left with their WAS. Earn your way out, as the bald Texan TV psychologist says.

I also am concerned with your acting out of fear. Acting out of fear rarely gets you to where you want and need to be. Finances are always a concern in D, and I get that. But I believe in hard work to get to the financial security so many crave. No marriage or D can replace that. And as far as your L, they always push to file and moved forward. I encountered the same in my sitch. All I wanted was knowledge, the L I consulted with pushed me to file immediately. You have to sift the wheat from the chaff.

El, you're definitely one of the strongest LBWs we've had here. I just don't want you to believe that you can shortcut the emotional side of precessing through all of this.


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Originally Posted by SteveLW
Elbereth, very good stuff here. I guess my only concern for you is to not rush this through with the thought that it will end your pain sooner. I'm a proponent, as you know, of setting a dropdead date. On that date move forward with the D with no looking back and no regrets. But it has to be long enough out that the LBS can work through all of the emotional baggage they have left with their WAS. Earn your way out, as the bald Texan TV psychologist says.

I also am concerned with your acting out of fear. Acting out of fear rarely gets you to where you want and need to be. Finances are always a concern in D, and I get that. But I believe in hard work to get to the financial security so many crave. No marriage or D can replace that. And as far as your L, they always push to file and moved forward. I encountered the same in my sitch. All I wanted was knowledge, the L I consulted with pushed me to file immediately. You have to sift the wheat from the chaff.

El, you're definitely one of the strongest LBWs we've had here. I just don't want you to believe that you can shortcut the emotional side of precessing through all of this.


I don't feel that I believe that I can shortcut the emotional side of processing all of this...so I'm doing my best to focus on that as well...and know that I can do more as well post D. Yes, I'm acting out of fear, but it's fear for my future financially. I'm not afraid to be on my own. I'm no longer afraid of losing my H. I can only control me and I want to have control over my finances. That feels empowering to me. I don't feel desperate. I hope that makes sense?

As for being one of the strongest of the LBSs out here? I'm not so sure about that! I see a lot of strength in many of others out here and their strength has been guiding me as well. I feel so lucky to have found this forum, because what strength you see in me would have been impossible otherwise. smile


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Just venting. H seems very stressed out and started a R convo with me that first started about our older son but eventually turned around to us. He tried to sound like he was trying to be supportive of me, but his statements showed anger and frustration of his own. He stated how he is overwhelmed by the whole D process (and the timeline HE told me he wanted), work, us, everything. I listened and tried to be supportive, but I reminded him that this sitch is what he wanted and initiated. He seems frustrated that I am not accepting his response to the funds he has spent, and I said, give me proof and we can take it from there. He reiterated that he isn't changing his mind on moving on with his life. I told him I am fully aware of that and have accepted that. I also reminded him that this whole situation isn't a cake walk for me and I want to move on with my life too. And that his tendency to never finish things has me concerned that I will be left in limbo. He acknowledge that issue. So, I said this was why I brought up the timeline the other day. I pushed that I wanted to go for a walk to end the R talk. All seemed fine enough after that and I went for a walk.

Later in the evening, he started to do more research on the missing funds. During this time he lashed out at me and I replied with an 'ouch' instead of a statement. He apologized that he was feeling stressed about it all and feeling grumpy. He looks miserable, he's still drinking a lot, he getting a big belly, and he looks like [censored]. There is that part of me that feels for him...that part of me that all these years was the one to help support him in his depression cycles. The one who even when I was dealing with my own health issues, put him first while he started his affair behind my back. I look back now and I realize that I was always expected to be the strong one, the one to take on the heavy loads of our relationship, and no matter how much I did, he pushed for more and said I wasn't doing enough. When I needed him most, he wasn't there for me. His XW was very weak...so I always told myself that it was that frustration with her that triggered his frustration with me. But now I think he's the weak one and when others can't give him the support he requires, he blames us instead of looking within and helping himself too.

One of his close friends told me that now looking back they realize that he wasn't there for his XW when she needed him after the birth of the boys. When she was struggling with health issues. I wonder if I missed this as a red flag...and a sign of what was to come for me. Or is it that men want a strong woman, but once they have one, they resent the strength and try to pull you down to their level? I don't know, but I know I need to do some work around this area and about how I feed or react to these sort of issues. My XH also grew to hate my strength. I thought my current H was a strong person when we first met, but time showed me that he isn't. Our courtship was quick, so by the time I saw these things, I was already living with him and fully committed to him. I want to be sure I find a true partner and equal in my next relationship. So this is an area I need to focus on. As my mom didn't remarry for a long time, I did not grow up a father figure until my early teens (my bio dad wasn't around). Maybe that has affected the choices I've made in my life on men?

Anyway, trying to take things one day at a time and just put one foot in front of the other each day. Thanks for listening and being there.

El


Me 52, H 56
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2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
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Originally Posted by Elbereth
Anyway, I hope that I’m not offending you by my statements.

Of course not. (: Your post was well thought-out, so I did take some time to consider it before responding.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
Being a child of divorce and experiencing my moms few boyfriends that were not good to us (whom she got rid of when it became obvious), I knew from a child’s point of view how important the role was.

That ex (5-10yrs ago) grew up with divorced parents, too! I never connected that as a possible motive for her aspiration to be a great step-parent. I saw her getting closer to my kids as a way to get closer to me.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
In your situation, you say “values weren’t aligned with yours” but if that is the case why would you even want to have a relationship with someone whose values are not aligned? I have a feeling that it may not have been your values but parenting style you have versus hers.

I shouldn't have been in a relationship with her. That ex amassed debt to put her sisters through college, because she didn't want them in debt. I didn't want her espousing doormat behavior to my kids.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
Our parenting styles are different. So I know some of that played a role. But one has to realize there is no rule book or instruction manual on raising kids...so being open to trying new things is a good thing. Instead of considering my approaches, he shut them down. He also allowed them to walk all over me.

It's true I often dismissed her parenting style with, "You haven't been a parent, you don't get it." I'd never be that dismissive of even an employee trying new things unless they silently ignored the rules or guidelines. I've tried, but I can't answer where that arrogant prick version of me 5-10yrs ago came from. Keeping an emotional distance? A fragile ego? We can't change who we've been. If anyone ever tries so hard with my kids again, I will treat them like gold. My last ex, unlike that one, had even when living together as a "family" zero interest in bonding with my S and D and did not see the good in my kids vs her own. Yellow flag!

Originally Posted by Elbereth
In the end, I think part of his crisis is that he’s angry that his kids are not what he hoped they would be. He looks at other people’s kids and wonders why they are so much better in his eyes then his own.

Aww, so sad. I LOVE my kids and where they are. I just want them to be happy and healthy. Anyway, I recognize the rarity and amazness of you being a great stepmom despite that challenging environment. I can't imagine being on your side of it--dismissed and unsupported--and prevailing in many ways. It sounds like you know your level of step-parenting is not common, based on you growing up with more than one poor stepdad. I'm glad the kids somewhat realize, and hope your ex someday realizes all you've done, hopefully sooner rather than 5-10yrs later. It's too bad we can't accelerate other people fixing themselves.

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Originally Posted by Elbereth
Or is it that men want a strong woman, but once they have one, they resent the strength and try to pull you down to their level?

That sounds similar to the notion that most women seek a "Bad Boy", and then try to change/tame him? I think there are many, many men out there who would accept and celebrate your strength. Strength is awesome! My last ex was strong (world-class athlete, Harvard professor)--and quite the opposite, I loved it and enjoyed being challenged and wanted to support her growth and accomplishments. It was her who wanted to hold me down, whenever my performance threatened to outshine hers.

Originally Posted by Elbereth
Our courtship was quick, so by the time I saw these things, I was already living with him and fully committed to him. I want to be sure I find a true partner and equal in my next relationship.

You solved your own riddle--we should be slower to go all-in. How do they make us feel? What do they bring out in us? Those questions are as important as attraction, values, and shared interests. If we can have a great life solo, what's the rush to go all-in with someone? I know the odds for second marriages are worse than for first marriages, but I feel great optimism based on all we've learned.

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Originally Posted by Elbereth
Or is it that men want a strong woman, but once they have one, they resent the strength and try to pull you down to their level? I don't know, but I know I need to do some work around this area and about how I feed or react to these sort of issues.
My brothers and I all married strong women. We are all pretty easy-going guys although my oldest brother has a stronger set of boundaries. We were all supportive of our wives endeavors and while successful ourselves did what we could to help them in their own successes.

Where it comes from I like to think is that we celebrate the successes of those we care about and don't measure ourselves by that. We were the best luggage carrying, prop building, potato finding guys going. We could always be trusted to keep Home safe and secure. And no - our last name isn't Gamgee, Elbereth.


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AndrewP and CWarrior (and anyone else that read my post) I SHOULD HAVE SAID

Originally Posted by Elbereth
Or is it that SOME men want a strong woman, but once they have one, they resent the strength and try to pull you down to their level?


I fully realize that not all men are the same and it was truly a mistake to not make it clear that some men, and it appears the men I have married, might feel this way...but there are lots of great men out there that DO support their strong women, and I want my next partner to be that kind of man. We had some reasons for rushing due to financials and other things, and yeah, I agree, we should have gone slower. Live and learn...right?

Originally Posted by CWarrior
It's true I often dismissed her parenting style with, "You haven't been a parent, you don't get it." I'd never be that dismissive of even an employee trying new things unless they silently ignored the rules or guidelines. I've tried, but I can't answer where that arrogant prick version of me 5-10yrs ago came from. Keeping an emotional distance? A fragile ego? We can't change who we've been. If anyone ever tries so hard with my kids again, I will treat them like gold.


So good! I'm glad you feel differently now CWarrior. It truly is the hardest job ever...and as a step-mom I felt totally dismissed for my commitment to the kids, even by their bio mom. It is what it is now and all I can do is keep trying and keep loving those boys...and maybe someday their father will realize what I did for them and for him in the relationship we had. smile

El


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Originally Posted by Elbereth
Just venting. H seems very stressed out and started a R convo with me that first started about our older son but eventually turned around to us. He tried to sound like he was trying to be supportive of me, but his statements showed anger and frustration of his own. He stated how he is overwhelmed by the whole D process (and the timeline HE told me he wanted), work, us, everything. I listened and tried to be supportive, but I reminded him that this sitch is what he wanted and initiated. He seems frustrated that I am not accepting his response to the funds he has spent, and I said, give me proof and we can take it from there. He reiterated that he isn't changing his mind on moving on with his life. I told him I am fully aware of that and have accepted that. I also reminded him that this whole situation isn't a cake walk for me and I want to move on with my life too. And that his tendency to never finish things has me concerned that I will be left in limbo. He acknowledge that issue. So, I said this was why I brought up the timeline the other day. I pushed that I wanted to go for a walk to end the R talk. All seemed fine enough after that and I went for a walk.

Later in the evening, he started to do more research on the missing funds. During this time he lashed out at me and I replied with an 'ouch' instead of a statement. He apologized that he was feeling stressed about it all and feeling grumpy. He looks miserable, he's still drinking a lot, he getting a big belly, and he looks like [censored]. There is that part of me that feels for him...that part of me that all these years was the one to help support him in his depression cycles. The one who even when I was dealing with my own health issues, put him first while he started his affair behind my back. I look back now and I realize that I was always expected to be the strong one, the one to take on the heavy loads of our relationship, and no matter how much I did, he pushed for more and said I wasn't doing enough. When I needed him most, he wasn't there for me. His XW was very weak...so I always told myself that it was that frustration with her that triggered his frustration with me. But now I think he's the weak one and when others can't give him the support he requires, he blames us instead of looking within and helping himself too.

One of his close friends told me that now looking back they realize that he wasn't there for his XW when she needed him after the birth of the boys. When she was struggling with health issues. I wonder if I missed this as a red flag...and a sign of what was to come for me. Or is it that men want a strong woman, but once they have one, they resent the strength and try to pull you down to their level? I don't know, but I know I need to do some work around this area and about how I feed or react to these sort of issues. My XH also grew to hate my strength. I thought my current H was a strong person when we first met, but time showed me that he isn't. Our courtship was quick, so by the time I saw these things, I was already living with him and fully committed to him. I want to be sure I find a true partner and equal in my next relationship. So this is an area I need to focus on. As my mom didn't remarry for a long time, I did not grow up a father figure until my early teens (my bio dad wasn't around). Maybe that has affected the choices I've made in my life on men?

Anyway, trying to take things one day at a time and just put one foot in front of the other each day. Thanks for listening and being there.

El


Was the R talk in person? Why not try to shortcut it earlier? "I can't talk about this right now...." then go for your walk.

I applaud you ending it, but try to do so sooner next time. It seems that this really got you spinning, and then you started overanalyzing. We all know the funds were used to fuel his A. You need to document the spending with your L and move on from that. His own guilt on justifying the spending isn't your concern.

However, it seems to me he is a bit of a piece of work. When he starts feeling stressed or overwhelmed in his current marriage he goes looking for something else. Depression, avoidant, not being there for his spouse, all sound like deep character flaws that can only be worked through with intense therapy, and certainly not alcohol. At this point I would be running for the door if I were you!

By the way, my W is a very strong woman. I wouldn't have it any other way!


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As far as what to look for in a new R, I find that people often look for the wrong things. We just discussed this in Ace32's thread. When I was single I always tried to find the woman I was smitten with, that I was crazy for. Spent decades waiting for my "true love" to come around, and she never did. Met my W and was immediately taken with her, at first she was hesitant. I often wonder if that hesitancy at first was what has caused us issues. I had lots of women when I was an eligible bachelor that were cuckoo for cocoa puffs about me. One in particular that I briefly dated, would come back and poke around every few years to see if my interest had changed. She finally gave up when I married my W. But I look back and kick myself for not giving her more of a chance. My 20/20 glasses have convinced me that what we should be looking for is someone that is crazy about us, not that we are crazy about. I look at my brother, he married a woman that was bonkers for him. She wasn't the best looking woman that was interested in him, but he prioritized how much she loved him over looks. And they've been happily married for a long time! I was too shallow and tried to find the person I was crazy for instead of the other way around.

So take your time. Learn to be happy alone. Do the work necessary on yourself and don't jump into something new right away. We are about the same age, and at our age everyone we meet will have their own emotional baggage. Make sure they've worked through all of that themselves, and that you have through yours, before jumping into something again.


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Originally Posted by Elbereth
Or is it that men want a strong woman, but once they have one, they resent the strength and try to pull you down to their level? I don't know, but I know I need to do some work around this area and about how I feed or react to these sort of issues. My XH also grew to hate my strength. I thought my current H was a strong person when we first met, but time showed me that he isn't. Our courtship was quick, so by the time I saw these things, I was already living with him and fully committed to him. I want to be sure I find a true partner and equal in my next relationship. So this is an area I need to focus on. As my mom didn't remarry for a long time, I did not grow up a father figure until my early teens (my bio dad wasn't around). Maybe that has affected the choices I've made in my life on men? l


I truly could've written this about my first MR. My grandfather was a great father, husband, provider, and man. He was a great one, but lack of a father did impact me. Regardless of how hard my grandfather did and does love me, because I at 37, the eldest of all the grandchildren, am still his princess. The rejection of a father who couldn't be bothered to so much as a cut a check to my mom or take off after I was born it a huge hurdle to overcome. Then the series of my mother's mistakes trying to fill that position did not help my picker one bit. It's taken YYYEEEAAARRRSS of therapy to dig through that.

My exH and I moved way too swiftly and I because we were so young I flat out ignored red flags.

As far as men go. You have a pretty good sampling of guys here who understand what it is to be with a strong woman, and have an appreciation for it. But I can say weak men in particular are drawn to strong women, they fix things, and get sh!t done. Thus eliminating their need to. It's all rainbow and roses to them until we get sick of carrying the burden of being the only adult in the relationship. Then we're controlling, and never happy, and they're never enough. You know because you asked them to clean up after themselves, or take care of their kids, or heaven forbid ask to be a priority in their lives. They then will follow you up with a weak willed women who lets them do what they want, when they want, and allows them to be the superhero when all they are offering is the absolute bare minimum.

Strong men also love a strong women, and in all the right ways. They love to be challenged. They love that they don't have to carry the burden of the relationship or the household. They love the decisiveness, and the fiery attitude even if that part isn't always their favorite. They love a woman who speaks her mind. Says what she wants and needs. And most of all how a strong woman loves. Because we truly love with ever fiber of our being.

Your H wants a doormat who will do everything for him with out complaint. You aren't that person. And he can't fool you about who he really is any more.

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Hi Steve,

Originally Posted by Steve
My 20/20 glasses have convinced me that what we should be looking for is someone that is crazy about us, not that we are crazy about.

Once upon a time, I dated a woman who was crazy about me for 5yrs, and I don't recommend that, either. I knew I was settling, I wondered what was out there, and eventually, I found the courage to leave.

Originally Posted by Steve
he prioritized how much she loved him over looks.

I hope he didn't settle so much as find beauty in her that others overlooked--soulful eyes, generous affection, a playfulness or sensuality about her that makes him smile. I have a chubby friend who's married to a model-like woman--they were best friends for years and she fell for his character. We miss much swiping profiles or on first coffee dates. I doubt I have it all figured out, but my criteria for my next partner are like so--

Attraction: 7+/10
Values: Loyal, Kind, Active, Affectionate
How do I feel around them? What do they bring out in me?

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Originally Posted by wayfarer
As far as men go. You have a pretty good sampling of guys here who understand what it is to be with a strong woman, and have an appreciation for it. But I can say weak men in particular are drawn to strong women, they fix things, and get sh!t done. Thus eliminating their need to. It's all rainbow and roses to them until we get sick of carrying the burden of being the only adult in the relationship. Then we're controlling, and never happy, and they're never enough. You know because you asked them to clean up after themselves, or take care of their kids, or heaven forbid ask to be a priority in their lives. They then will follow you up with a weak willed women who lets them do what they want, when they want, and allows them to be the superhero when all they are offering is the absolute bare minimum.

Wayfarer tell us how you really feel about men lol.

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Originally Posted by wayfarer
As far as men go. You have a pretty good sampling of guys here who understand what it is to be with a strong woman, and have an appreciation for it. But I can say weak men in particular are drawn to strong women, they fix things, and get sh!t done. Thus eliminating their need to. It's all rainbow and roses to them until we get sick of carrying the burden of being the only adult in the relationship. Then we're controlling, and never happy, and they're never enough. You know because you asked them to clean up after themselves, or take care of their kids, or heaven forbid ask to be a priority in their lives. They then will follow you up with a weak willed women who lets them do what they want, when they want, and allows them to be the superhero when all they are offering is the absolute bare minimum.

Wayfarer tell us how you really feel about men lol.

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Originally Posted by LH19
Wayfarer tell us how you really feel about men lol.


Hahahaha. You know me LH, I don't mince my words about guys who play act at being men when they are really just little boys.

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Hi E,

I wanted to pop in and just echo what a few others have said-- you're super strong and have a great head on your shoulders. And, when you've got both DnJ AND Wayfarer commenting on your posts, you know you're getting incredible advice so I'm just here to add a bit of moral support!

The only thing I wanted to comment on is this-- I know it is natural to want to dissect the MR issues with your H in your head, his weakness, incapacity to be a good partner, etc. I think that can be helpful for detaching as you start to see him as a human being and not just your H, is this someone you'd choose to be with if you were meeting him now, and all those related questions. All that being said, I also think you want to balance out time spent ruminating there with all the GAL stuff you're doing so well, and put some limits on that so that you're filling your cup with healthy and positive future-oriented things even while you allocate some time to thinking about your H and your MR.

xx May


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
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Hello El

Interesting discussion regarding partners and marriage. Trust, respect, and sincerity really top the list of must haves.

My second oldest son is considering marriage. Needless to say I’ve invested some time into considering and mulling over the topic of relationships. I thought I’d share my musing from a while ago, given we are all around similar age with children growing up and looking into starting families. I suspect there will be a view or two that resonates within yourself. smile

Originally Posted by DnJ
My kids are growing and getting closer and closer to marriage. I’ve no doubt S23 and S22 will someday pop the question. And as Dad, and someone who’s been around the block, I will pass on my advice to them. S22 as already ask for some regarding engagement and marriage. I know my suggestions to the kids would be taken with high regard and respect.

The idea of a prenuptial agreement, oddly may not be as proposed from me as one might think I would (given the wild betrayal XW inflicted). With little to no individual assets going into a marriage, the worst case of 50/50 is probably the agreements young adults would make anyhow. If one has significant pre-marriage assets, then an agreement would protect that.

Utilizing a prenup to somehow strengthen a marriage - by if one decides to leave or cheat or whatever, they get nothing - would not work. Fear and financial ruin is not good reason to stay, and turns one (or both) into more slaves than partners.

Still, an agreement, if they were to want one, would be interesting and useful in that they would not be bind-sided as to what they are actually getting into. I’ve consider, what would 27 year married and now divorced DnJ tell his younger self so many years ago. What wisdom would I pass back to myself? That is where I’m coming from regarding passing wisdom forward to my kids.

I’ve passed on plenty of life lessons. Love, emotions, intellect, money, debt management, crisis, grief, responsibility, loyalty, faith, faithfulness, work ethic, personal ethics, beliefs, ego, accountability, and the list goes on.

Marriage. That formal union of two people. The taking of a relationship to the next and highest level. Why get married? That is the question that leads to the wisdom I’d pass on.

Most people get married for love. They are in love and therefore get married. But why? You already have the love. What does marriage do? Why do you need to get married? You already have the love.

People marry for love. They should and need to marry the person, not the love. Love is the icing on the cake; it is not the cake.

A marriage should be based upon a solid respectful relationship, which both parties want to, and vow to, up hold and strengthen.

Love is a thing. Marrying for love is no better than marrying for money. Marry the person not the thing. Vow to the person not the feelings you have.

That distinction allows people to weather the storms of life. Love ebbs and flows, has its ups and downs, yet the person remains. Marry the person. (This is some of the reason I am where I am. Have the beliefs I do. Make the choices I do.)

Society is nowadays wired and programmed to expect instant gratification. Everything is promised to be available at the push of a button. Lol. And when it isn’t - boom! People have melt downs. Egos are so huge. The sense of entitlement is enormous.

The unrealized programmed expectations and demands of people lead to resentments within their lives. Unrealized resentments. Just look around at society. Are people happy? Full of purpose and joy and contentment and peace? Sadly, the answer is no. True there are individuals and pockets of society that do live that way. However, society is largely wound up pretty tight with most things a sensationalized concern with nary a direct tie to the individual, to themselves. The truly important stuff of their lives they invest the least into. Marriage being near the top of that list. There is a reason divorce is so rampant.

One of my most despised ideas of the current age is “life hacks”. First it’s not a hack - it’s cheating! Second, that quick shortcut leads nowhere really. One doesn’t learn or acquire the knowledge or skills of said “hack”, and cannot actually perform it. True authentic traits or skills take time and effort. It is within that pursuit, and the personal effort invested, that provide the dividends the hackers are trying to find.

Don’t hack your marriage. It’s not love at the push of a button. It’s work. It’s commitment of the highest order. The personal dividends from such a pursuit are incredible. Ensure you realize the correct path to walk. And have the conviction to walk it.

None of my kids or their BF/GF would want their partner to do what Mom/XW did to me. I know this advice/wisdom would be well received, for the foundation has been crafted for many years. Be responsible, reliable, accountable, ethical, honest - do the work, for there are no shortcuts to the true goals you seek.

Don’t marry for love, is so counterintuitive, until it isn’t.

Looking back, I think young DnJ and old DnJ would have a pretty interesting conversation.

D


Feelings are fleeting.
Be better, not bitter.
Love the person, forgive the sin.
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Hello friends. I've not been able to sit on down and really take the time to respond until now. Been keeping busy and had some nice evenings with friends, and lots of work stuff this week, so that is good. All your responses have given me so much to think about!

Originally Posted by SteveLW
However, it seems to me he is a bit of a piece of work. When he starts feeling stressed or overwhelmed in his current marriage he goes looking for something else. Depression, avoidant, not being there for his spouse, all sound like deep character flaws that can only be worked through with intense therapy, and certainly not alcohol. At this point I would be running for the door if I were you!


I'm struggling with this...as I have been dwelling on these thoughts for a while now and I'm not really sure what to think anymore. I've been cautioned about rewriting my past with H, but I can't help but wonder if the person I thought he was, was a mirage? Maybe his flaws became more intense or obvious due to the crisis? Or maybe they were there and I ignored them? I don't know...but I do know that this person he is now is not who I want to be with. I agree with what you say below...that's the goal!

Originally Posted by SteveLW
So take your time. Learn to be happy alone. Do the work necessary on yourself and don't jump into something new right away. We are about the same age, and at our age everyone we meet will have their own emotional baggage. Make sure they've worked through all of that themselves, and that you have through yours, before jumping into something again.


Originally Posted by Wayfarer
As far as men go. You have a pretty good sampling of guys here who understand what it is to be with a strong woman, and have an appreciation for it. But I can say weak men in particular are drawn to strong women, they fix things, and get sh!t done. Thus eliminating their need to. It's all rainbow and roses to them until we get sick of carrying the burden of being the only adult in the relationship. Then we're controlling, and never happy, and they're never enough. You know because you asked them to clean up after themselves, or take care of their kids, or heaven forbid ask to be a priority in their lives. They then will follow you up with a weak willed women who lets them do what they want, when they want, and allows them to be the superhero when all they are offering is the absolute bare minimum.

Strong men also love a strong women, and in all the right ways. They love to be challenged. They love that they don't have to carry the burden of the relationship or the household. They love the decisiveness, and the fiery attitude even if that part isn't always their favorite. They love a woman who speaks her mind. Says what she wants and needs. And most of all how a strong woman loves. Because we truly love with ever fiber of our being.

Your H wants a doormat who will do everything for him with out complaint. You aren't that person. And he can't fool you about who he really is any more.


OMG Wayfarer, I about spit out my coffee when I read this! As usual, you have a way with words that hit me to the core. I think you may be right about my H...and it makes me sad. Goes along with my struggle with if the man I married was a mirage, but this is the real him. I love him (truly with every fiber of my being), but this description rings so true for my situation that I am even more solid on moving on to the big D. If this is the man he is, he isn't good for me, and loving him will just continue to suck the life out of me...

Originally Posted by Wayfarer
You know me LH, I don't mince my words about guys who play act at being men when they are really just little boys.


Thanks all for the banter on my thread...I love it! Tell us Wayfarer...what do you think of men vs boys? lol

Originally Posted by May22
I wanted to pop in and just echo what a few others have said-- you're super strong and have a great head on your shoulders. And, when you've got both DnJ AND Wayfarer commenting on your posts, you know you're getting incredible advice so I'm just here to add a bit of moral support!

The only thing I wanted to comment on is this-- I know it is natural to want to dissect the MR issues with your H in your head, his weakness, incapacity to be a good partner, etc. I think that can be helpful for detaching as you start to see him as a human being and not just your H, is this someone you'd choose to be with if you were meeting him now, and all those related questions. All that being said, I also think you want to balance out time spent ruminating there with all the GAL stuff you're doing so well, and put some limits on that so that you're filling your cup with healthy and positive future-oriented things even while you allocate some time to thinking about your H and your MR


Yes, I am trying, but as I said, my brain/heart keeps dissecting my H and what my MR has been like. Maybe it's what is allowing me to face the D. I don't know...I'm trying to just focus on my goals and my plans. The whole limbo of the current moment is not helping. I do have a lot of things going on, so I am really not focused solely on stuff with H, and his flaws. But, your suggestion is good to ensure I don't waste too much time on what I can't answer, control, or affect right now, so best to focus my energy on better things that are about me and my future. I'm trying!

As for everyone's comments on relationships and finding the right person, thanks for the perspectives. I am not sure what my feelings will be when I start to date again, but I believe that one has to create a list in their minds of top 3-5 things the person must have, and a list of 3-5 flags that if they show up, then you move on asap. The top list should be more than just looks and such, but deeper things you can't live without in a partner. The rest is chemistry and hopefully some interesting things you like but hadn't thought of (when you actually start meeting folks you are interested in). I'm not sure I would run with someone who is totally into me more than I am them, and vice versa. But hell, what do I know? This is coming from the gal who thought she was getting a man and got stuck with a little boy! wink This will be my second D...so I think I am not choosing well (and I really need Wayfarer to help me find a real MAN next time around)!

Thanks all!

xo
El


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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Originally Posted by Elbereth
I'm struggling with this...as I have been dwelling on these thoughts for a while now and I'm not really sure what to think anymore. I've been cautioned about rewriting my past with H, but I can't help but wonder if the person I thought he was, was a mirage? Maybe his flaws became more intense or obvious due to the crisis? Or maybe they were there and I ignored them? I don't know...but I do know that this person he is now is not who I want to be with.
One conscious choice that I made - and it took me a while to get there - is to accept my own memories of the past as my own reality. In that reality I had a loving wife who was not perfect but was a good partner. She did a great job supporting me and did the bulk of raising our children of whom I am very proud. If I try to stir up the past then yes, things may float to the surface like a turd in the punchbowl, but I just leave it alone.

I think that has helped me a lot. Yes, learning from the past is very important but there comes a point where you need to just let it be and move forward. It does take time and patience and there will always be WTF or other moments when the punchbowl seems disturbed.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
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Originally Posted by AndrewP
One conscious choice that I made - and it took me a while to get there - is to accept my own memories of the past as my own reality. In that reality I had a loving wife who was not perfect but was a good partner. She did a great job supporting me and did the bulk of raising our children of whom I am very proud. If I try to stir up the past then yes, things may float to the surface like a turd in the punchbowl, but I just leave it alone.

I think that has helped me a lot. Yes, learning from the past is very important but there comes a point where you need to just let it be and move forward. It does take time and patience and there will always be WTF or other moments when the punchbowl seems disturbed.


This is a good way of seeing things. I'm trying to accept my own memories as true ones...but I guess I'm still so blown away by what has happened, that I am not trusting my memories. I keep seeing all these whispers of signs that in hindsight I see, but wonder if that is only because I want to connect the dots in some ways. I'm still also trying to look back at my role in it all. It's all very hard and confusing but necessary, I think, for my own growth and also to move forward. I want to find a new counselor to explore these thoughts with. And I think journalling will help as well.

Also, all of the perspectives I get from all of you help as well!

El.

Time for a new thread...

New thread: Still putting one foot in front of the other...


Me 52, H 56
T10 M7, 2nd MR for both
2 Step Sons (19 and 21)
BD: Fall 2020
D finalized: July 2022
XH Married AP soon after D day.



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