Brave Little Gerda Knows More Now

[Gerda]

Friends. I am so broken tonight.

It has been a horrible few weeks. My MIL, after that first meeting where we cried and I listened to her and then sent many kind messages and offers to see her, went back to her same ways, not answering me anymore, rarely seeing the children but when she did, going directly to my children to manipulate them into going to H's restaurant. My daughter kept refusing and at one point my MIL sort of tricked her into going into H's apartment when he wasn't there, very traumatizing.

Then I heard that H had hired S16's best friend, the son of the broker mentioned before. (And by the way, the nickname I gave him was a sort of translation of his actual name. That private joke with myself is a way I can stay sane, and I think it's fine to laugh with old friends (you) about the wicked characters in this fairy tale. I would not say that to my kids or ppl IRL) First S16 was really angry and embarrassed and told me he was going to tell H not to hire him. And then I heard that S16 had been going there more and was considering working there too.

All this was happening while I was filing a motion to change custody and trying to get interim child support, etc. All of my papers, already turned in, talked about how H hadn't seen his son in two years. All these meetings, hiring S16, etc., all was done in secret and neither S16 nor H ever told me about it. And during these weeks, S16 started treating me so horribly, so so horribly -- it was like living with H -- including the never-home, never-answering phone all the way down to the disgust, the insults, the scorn, etc.

Then last week I was in the hospital. It was a bit of an emergency and related to the cancer drug I am on, which increases the risk of another kind of cancer. That day, I was supposed to have a conference on a motion I filed to change custody. That morning I wrote to tell the parties that I was having a medical emergency and would have to adjourn. Later that night, when I came home, I saw the flurry of e-mails exchanged that morning about rescheduling, asking again about a trial date, etc. Only the court attorney said anything my being in the hospital, just literally four words.

Not the death of his own father, not me being in the hospital could cause any change in the focus of these people -- focus on destruction and avoiding any provision, even the most basic child support for our kids.

I had to file a notice of appeal before 30 days had passed, so I did that the last two days. I still hope and pray we settle or have a trial before the appeal is heard but if we don't, I had to protect myself.

D12 then started saying she wanted to see her dad for breakfast to see how it went. So I wrote to H and his lawyer saying that she wanted to do that, and offering again a custody agreement that started with the breakfasts and worked its way up to increased visits over time. No response. D12 texted her dad but he mostly did not answer, waited many days and then wrote one of his weird overly cutesy middle school romance kind of texts. And in the meantime was hiring my son and his best friend, making plans with them, etc., all without my knowing anything about it.

Then one night one of the other mothers told me that all the guys were going to S16's Dad's restaurant, and how fun that was.

Today I had to be in court filing a bunch of papers, and on my way out another email from H's lawyer threatening and posturing.

And then tonight I could not get my son to return my calls and I didn't know where he was. And finally he did text me back and said he was working. I asked, "Working out?" (He is really into working out now and I bought him an expensive gym membership for his birthday.) And he wrote back, "No, at the restaurant." And then he added, "temporarily," I guess somehow to try to show he wasn't totally being bought by his dad.

I felt so bad. So so so bad. After everything that has happened, all I did to feed and house my kids against these odds, with cancer, with loneliness, with a husband who went truly insane or turned out always to be insane, with being left with all the debts, being broke, keeping this place running through Covid, trying to love my kids and feed them and bearing their displaced rages at me out of love for them, now my son who was so difficult and seemed to finally be coming out of it is WORKING for this man instead of just receiving from this man the money he OWES his son as a father providing for his son -- and treating me so bad, so many secrets, so much dysfunction, and I am just so lonely in this moment, and just terrified about it getting even worse, that my kids will start doing that, recreating our old life in this restaurant, hanging out with their friends there, believing the lies H and his mother will feed them about me, and all the while I am trapped in the endless litigation, my efforts to resolve using the agreement we already made or another one just like it or another one even better, all of them ignored.

You cannot imagine the horrible things I want to say to S16. I feel so betrayed by him. I know that is my own wound speaking and I won't say anything to him of course but I might have to avoid him entirely to avoid saying something hurtful out of the hurt I am feeling. I just want to crawl under a rock and not come out until all of this is over. I feel so terrible. Just sitting here trying to pray and to find the light again and crying my head off.

[Gerda]

P.S. When S16 came home, he was awful and I was pretty stony. I kept trying to get my face normal so I could speak and I kept being silent because I couldn't. Finally told him that I thought it was great to connect with his Dad again but that he should not have to earn financial support, that his Dad should be helping him and let him focus on school. He told me that he didn't care, that was my problem, he liked working there, etc. I said that all the secrecy and keeping me uninformed about what he was doing was not right and made it really hard for me in court -- and then I said a couple things, e.g., that his dad had claimed S lived with him, etc., -- he just got more and more defiant and told me to deal with my own sh%t.

I did not even want to tell him any of that. It all makes me sound like I am trying to stop him from seeing his dad. I'm not. But not this way. Two years of nothing, and all the vicious horror in court, now dropping D and making use of S in this way. The way he hired S's best friend to lure him in. It was so clever and so dark.

All this time I have not told my kids much about what is going on, I don't tell them the specifics. Once in a while I say something or they see me come back from court sad. All this time S would make fun of D12 for going to see her dad and would tell me he was afraid to see him, etc.

I feel like my son just got sucked into the darkness.

I know you will all say it's great to reconnect with his dad. But this is not great. This is all secrets and lies and manipulation and confusion and it seems like there is nothing I can. There is no way I can affect this narrative without looking like I'm trying to poison them too. But I don't even know how to behave around my own children now! I am so sad and so broken and I feel so mad at them and don't want to!

Please don't 2x4 me. Just gentle advice please. I'm really broken.

[Eagle3]

Dear Gerda,

Sorry to hear that H's manipulation is taking over again.

I can't help much, but I do want to briefly tell you a story about a woman I met recently who lost her children for about 4 years, precisely because of the manipulation and influence her H used on their children.

This was a woman who lived abroad with her H and their 2 children. (ages 14 and 12 at the time)
This man has always been very manipulative and a narcist. On top of that, she thinks he also got an MLC at one point. (personally I don't think it was MLC)

Her H met an OW and wanted to get rid of his wife immediately.
Strange enough he did not want to lose his children, apparently for all the wrong reasons. (that's why I don't think it was MLC, since not regular behavior for MLC'ers)

He manipulated those children in such a way that they no longer wanted to have anything to do with their own mother.

That woman came back to her own country broken, losing her entire family.

However, she has always tried to keep in touch with her children, even if they didn't want to.

When the first child reached adulthood, he literally trew his children away. Apparantely he did not want to pay child and/or spousal support at the time of the break-up. Once they were no longer financially interesting to him, he didn't want to have anything to do with them anymore.

Those children have come back to their mother and since then they have been living with her again. They now understand what a bad person their father is and never want contact with him again.

I just want to tell you Gerda, children are naive, believe in the goodness of mankind, but soon or later, these children become adults and they will experience it, just the same way as you have realized you H isn't a good person. Then they will need your help and you will have to be there for them. But they will have to go through this process themselves unfortunately.

You will not be able to make this clear to them, and save them from this, especially not because they are already teenagers.

Can I ask you something? Do you think your H is still experiencing an MLC or do you think this is simply who he is, definitely because of the fact he has put you through a whole lot of things, and still does, for so many years already.

Good luck dear Gerda…this must be incredibly difficult for you…i'm so sorry...Hugs...

[DnJ]

Good Morning Gerda

(((Hug)))

Let me tell you of some more of my dark times. You always find solace in the realization that I experienced dark painful episodes as well.

Back when XW threw away her children I was left holding the bag on everything. It was so overwhelming. So horrible. So nasty to the kids. And, a my dark little secret, it was nice.

Sure I had all these emotions and problems and responsibilities, and I had no competition for parent of the year. XW checked out big time, which left me.

As horrible as all that was, it was nice. I also got used to it.

Children grow up. And they all found their relationship with their Mom. It is little wonder with my guidance and encouragement towards forgiveness. Yet, I felt betrayed somewhat. Yeah, I know. How irrational is that. I’m the one encouraging their forgiving and felt against it. Lol.

Of course, I know and realize feeling are fleeting, and worked my way through such irrational mire. XW behaved a certain way for years, and one gets used to that and expects that to be the way things are. Nothing remains static.

Currently, it seems XW is starting to perhaps question her reality, somewhat. That was revealed recently by S23. Again, a weird threat to my dominance as “the” parent. Haha. I do laugh at my self for these feelings. They are real, valid, and completely irrationally based.

To be transparent and open, these feelings are extremely fleeting. Lasting like a minute. I do not reinforce them. And they are not consuming, more of a twinge as they go off to see Mom for a few minutes after visiting me for the entire weekend, or occur while hearing about a phone call they had with her.

Of course, I’m in a very good space now. A few years ago things were different and I did get dragged around.

I don't even know how to behave around my own children now!

As a Mom or a Dad, we parents walk many paths simultaneously. Remain the loving Mom you are.

I love my kids. I let my kids go forth into the world. And I remain available, and love and support them as they find their own paths.

Gerda, let S16 work at his Dad’s restaurant. (You really can’t stop him anyhow.) Heck, you might as well encourage him to work there.

Encourage him to pursue his passions and interests. Encourage him to spend time with his Dad - presently for the moment that “encouragement” is more not discouraging him. Valid S16’s choices and decisions to work for his Dad.

I know that all hurts. While you are finding your way to reconcile this new information, continue to live and lead in the light. Your path still exists. You still need to walk. And you have D12’s journey to foster as well. Another hug. (((Hug))) It can get rather overwhelming at times.

I saw my MIL for the first time in years today. She was weeping the whole time and me 50% of the time.

I was at the cabin and my son was on his own. He had to go to H's restaurant and see H for the first time in over two years and MIL for the first time in more than three years. He didn't even tell me. When I got back, he told me and said he wanted to tell me in person and that he decided to do it because he felt it would be selfish not to go. He even called his therapist before he went.

He got his learners permit on Monday. So I let him drive afterwards.

This is a short update.

So proud of my son.

Families need to be there when grief hits. And this whole D nightmare is making it very hard to navigate. But maybe it will somehow help my kids at least reconnect with their grandmother.

My MIL, after that first meeting where we cried and I listened to her and then sent many kind messages and offers to see her, went back to her same ways, not answering me anymore, rarely seeing the children…

MIL just lost her husband. She reached out, and as grief progressed, return to herself. It’s a month since her husband’s death. She’ll be somewhere in the anger stage right now. Who do you think she is going to lash out to? How do you think she’d express her anger and frustration? You are a target. Everyone around her would be target. God always gets a blast or two during such processing of loss as well.

I felt so bad. So so so bad. After everything that has happened, all I did to feed and house my kids against these odds, with cancer, with loneliness, with a husband who went truly insane or turned out always to be insane, with being left with all the debts, being broke, keeping this place running through Covid, trying to love my kids and feed them and bearing their displaced rages at me out of love for them, now my son who was so difficult and seemed to finally be coming out of it is WORKING for this man instead of just receiving from this man the money he OWES his son as a father providing for his son -- and treating me so bad, so many secrets, so much dysfunction, and I am just so lonely in this moment, and just terrified about it getting even worse, that my kids will start doing that, recreating our old life in this restaurant, hanging out with their friends there, believing the lies H and his mother will feed them about me, and all the while I am trapped in the endless litigation, my efforts to resolve using the agreement we already made or another one just like it or another one even better, all of them ignored.

Finally told him that I thought it was great to connect with his Dad again but that he should not have to earn financial support, that his Dad should be helping him and let him focus on school. He told me that he didn't care, that was my problem, he liked working there, etc. I said that all the secrecy and keeping me uninformed about what he was doing was not right and made it really hard for me in court -- and then I said a couple things, e.g., that his dad had claimed S lived with him, etc., -- he just got more and more defiant and told me to deal with my own sh%t.

H doesn’t owe S16 money. H owes you money. You raise son and H owes you. Keep son out of that transaction.

By the way, son is 16 and wants to earn his way, earn his finances. That is a good thing.

And, although S16 was crass, he was right when saying deal with your own sh%t.

Ah, parenting. Those simultaneous paths. Our kids, thankfully, have a different view than us. It is at times hard to be that role model.

You cannot imagine the horrible things I want to say to S16. I feel so betrayed by him. I know that is my own wound speaking and I won't say anything to him of course but I might have to avoid him entirely to avoid saying something hurtful out of the hurt I am feeling. I just want to crawl under a rock and not come out until all of this is over. I feel so terrible. Just sitting here trying to pray and to find the light again and crying my head off.

Yes, I can imagine the horrible thing you’d like to say to S16. I’ve uttered some during my low times, and I still regret the looks I caused upon the faces of my son and daughter. Two specific times of unmeasured words being uttered and causing unwarranted and unneeded pain in my kids. Yeah, I’ve got a few times a truly do regret.

So what to do? Get up, dust off, and step back into the light.

I am so sad and so broken and I feel so mad at them and don't want to!

Feeling will flit.

Your anger, if you don’t yet realize, is a stage of grief. Grief? What you talking about DnJ? The irrational loss of your kids to H.

We all default and see things in a binary manner at first. Son can work and be with Dad, and still be with you. It’s not either or.

You anger is normal and understandable. And there is plenty going on in your life - litigation, cabin, work, paying bills, putting food on the table, raising good kids, and so much more. Breathe and be gentle on yourself.

D

[Sage4]

Dearest Gerda, I am so sorry for the anguish you are suffering at the moment. I am sure the past few days have given you some time for your wise inner voice to break through some of the veneer of anger and injustice, but I just wanted to add my support.

DnJ has shared some really wise advice, all of which I agree with. I think one of the differences in his situation compared to yours, however, is that J's 'disappearance' mediated some of the abuse that you have experienced with your H. And from your writing, that abuse was present during the marriage and up to present day. Abusive situations require a different skill set to navigate. Triggers are not only emotional, but can viscerally recall the prior abuse and you may feel it in your whole body. I am not suggesting that a less abusive marriage doesn't also share the c-ptsd bodily response, but in your situation, you are literally in fight or flight mode with every single interaction (or interaction-by-proxy as with your children).

Here's your job at the moment, a very, very tough one, but necessary for you and your children: separate your abuse from the abuse you have witnessed your children suffer. When I read your post, it doesn't feel like you have differentiated the abuse you experienced from the abuse your children experienced. That worked for a while, you were mama-bear protecting your cubs and you HAD to lump it all together for you to survive. And you have done such a great job of it. So well, in fact, that your children are actually strong, healthy and stable enough to consider navigating a relationship with their father. What a wonderful thing you have done to have raised and protected your children so! Your job here is not done, invariably they will suffer at H's hand again in the future, but you have given them the tools they need for the moment and you will be present and loving in the future when they need your support in this arena.

So now is the time to differentiate. Allow them to practice using the tools you have given them. And take that additional time and mental space to do some deep work on yourself and healing your trauma. I don't remember if you are in therapy, but if not, find a really, really, really good trauma-informed therapist that specializes in narcissistic abuse. And lean in heartily (two or three times a week for a month or so if you can manage that) for as long as it takes for you to feel safe again. Within yourself. Because your children will betray you. Your H will betray you and if you can't differentiate what is theirs and what is yours, you will continue to suffer needlessly.

You are wise and wonderful. Remember that.

(((Gerda)))

[sjohns6]

Gerda,

Hello my friend. It has been a while. I read your post just now and it about broke my heart. I know EXACTLY how you feel. I want my kids to have a good relationship with their mom. They deserve that, but I can't help but feel relieved when they are angry at her and disappointed when they seem to be getting along...and I hate that I feel that way. I am going through a little bit of that myself right now...and it is hard. One thing I can say is that I experience that off and on consistently because my ex is still swapping with me 50% of the time, even though my son is now 18 (just turned 18 a week ago) so I have had a lot of time to think about that feeling and what it means.

There are a few things to consider. One, that your children are smart. They may have a lot to learn still, but they are smart. Even if they don't fully realize the situation as it stands...they will. As they get older and start making lives of their own, things will start to fall in to place for them. They know what you are, and they know what their dad is. They won't forget they were afraid of him and disgusted by his behavior. But, he is their dad and some part of them desires a relationship with him. As much as that hurts us after being betrayed by their dad, it is natural. I think a good reminder is that it isn't the kids that have betrayed us by desiring a relationship, it is our MLCers that have betrayed us, kids included. The children are just stuck in the middle. But as they get older, they will begin to realize all the sacrifices you have made for their benefit. Sometimes it takes an adult mind to recognize adult behavior.

Another thing I think it is important to consider is stability and structure. We all crave it to some degree or another. It makes us feel safe and helps us know where we stand. You are providing that for your children and you are the only one doing so. It is one of the things that is allowing them to grow more confident in their decisions. They will go out in to the world and make good and bad decisions, but you are the home they run to in order to seek refuge from it all. That is POWERFUL! He may be trying to be fun dad or something, but that doesn't really go very far. And, the more time they spend around him, the more opportunities he has to hurt them be being himself. Then they will come back to you for the stability they will need in that time. They are teenagers and they will be rebellious at time, and it will hurt at times because we are only human, but you really are doing a remarkable job and it will become evident to them soon if not now. The love and stability you are providing is creating the platform of confidence they are using to go out in to the world and explore the things that interest them. Good job mama!

You got knocked down. Its ok to feel how you do, that is normal. But, you should also be PROUD of the woman you are and the job you are doing. Problem is, you don't have people around you reminding you of that. Let us step in and do that for you. I am absolutely proud to call you a friend. You are an amazing mother and friend (and wife when given the opportunity). We all think it!!

Love you friend (((GERDA)))

Sam I Am

[bttrfly]

Parental alienation. It's a legal term because it's an old, old game played by sick people during divorces.

Parentifying ... another term worth getting to know because that usually also goes hand in glove with alienation.


Regardless of what your husband is or isn't doing, this divorce is between the two parties who married - You and Him - not your kids. Keep your side of the street clean. There is no reason ever to include kids in the details of the divorce proceedings.

I get, more than you could ever imagine, the triggers pulled by defiant sons who sound just like their toxic fathers. My ex-MIL has never lost an opportunity to degrade me to my son. That's on her, not me. What I choose to do in response is on me. What she does is very damaging to my son. What I do would be even more damaging.

Hold firm. Vent here or to close friends IRL. Is family therapy an option for you and your son?

Most of all, trust in God.

[Gerda]

Thank you, my friends, for all these comments.

I will write more soon to reply to each of you.

I don't know if you remember what happened the last eight years. The children were decimated by this man. And it took me seven years to get my son out of the worst of it. Self harm, shoplifting, refusing to go to school, reported twice to ACS, rage, running away, etc. It was just this summer that I started to feel he was going to be okay.

Now that he is seeing his father again, and living this secret life always at his place, my son has totally transformed and totally regressed.

Just now he spent 1/2 an hour telling me what a loser I am, how lame that I can't afford the things I need, why I had to get a "real" job so that I could finally pay for things for this family, and the look on his face, of pure hatred, disdain, disgust. It's like he is absorbing the MLC monster and coming home to puke it out all over me. I tried to listen to him at first and let him get it out, but after a while I realized it was a sort of monstering and that all i could do was disengage by leaving. And then I remembered that until maybe 10 months ago, S would regularly wreck my things when he was in a rage. Just in small ways, like knocking over my jewelry box or something. But his face is like that again. It's like he's not in there anymore. This all happened just in the last month of seeing his father again and being sucked into that vortex, working hours and hours there and I think tonight he was just hanging out there.

There are many things I have to do to do work on myself, trauma therapy sounds right. And I agree that there is not much I can do to keep S from his dad. But I do not agree that what is happening between me and H is separate from my kids. I think it's almost dangerous to see it that way. There is a difference between trying not to share any details and thinking this is only between a husband and wife. My H's goal is to destroy the family unit, not me. He doesn't have any mercy or empathy for these kids, and I can see already what he is doing to my son, my son is literally transformed in the space of three weeks.

Anyway Thank you for all the time you took to help me, DnJ, Sage, SJohn, Eagle, Bttrfly. Will reply more soon.

[bttrfly]

Sometimes we try to help people, in real life or here on the boards, and for whatever reason the help isn't taken. People have to find their own way. You, Gerda, have to find your own way regardless of what any of us offer as suggestions or encouragement.

I've a friend - known him for well over 35 years. In fact, he introduced me to my exh. He is completely damaged by his parents divorce, even though it happened when he was a child. He blames one parent for everything and sanctifies the other parent. He knows way too much about the details of their relationship and divorce and only one parent gave him those details. He's never had his own family because he was parentified and a victim of parental alienation. What do I mean by this? In his case, he has no relationship with his father and is his mother's partner in every way except sexual. He's his brothers' dad, and they resent him for that role. He has never had a romantic relationship of any real length or substance. He has so much anger, it's affected his personal and work relationships. It's really sad to see this. He's a great guy, but he's imprisoned by this and he can't even see it. Worse yet, his mother trolls the internet for any and all details about her exh which she then shares with him and which fuels more anger and resentment. They are locked into this vicious dynamic and have been for DECADES. Guess what? My MIL tried to do the same to my exh, with almost the same results.

My husband said the most damaging thing in a string of damaging things was that his parents bad mouthed each other to him. And yes, he has done the same to our son, and it's caused great harm. I cannot protect my son from his father ... they have their own relationship to figure out. I can and try to make sure that my side of the street is swept clean on a daily basis and that I do not do that as well. No child should ever know the details of their parents' relationship. I'm adamant about that. Nothing good can come from it, especially if that relationship is acrimonious. I personally know way more than I ever wanted to about my parents' relationship and I struggle with it and theirs was a pretty good relationship all things considered. I cannot control what my son's father does or says. I can only control what I do and say.

I don't pretend to know what the best course of action is for you and your children. I'd suggest family therapy as a starting point and / or maybe some religious counseling for yourself if you are open to it. I wish you and your family all the best.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Gerda

But I do not agree that what is happening between me and H is separate from my kids. I think it's almost dangerous to see it that way. There is a difference between trying not to share any details and thinking this is only between a husband and wife.

What is happening between you and H is between you and H. It also affects your kids, friends, family, etc.

It is important to ensure son and daughter realize they are not the cause of your divorce. That it is between you and H. Only!

Yes, it is good to provide information and answer question for their young thirsty minds. Factual and to the point age appropriate answers. There are plenty of lessons they will and are learning. Morality, loyalty, resilience, responsibility, trustworthy, honour, to name a few. And there is vengeance, anger, hatred, selfishness, and so on, they are exposed too and learning about. It’s up to us to be the role model and guide which is lived. One needs both sides to truly learn something.

My H's goal is to destroy the family unit, not me. He doesn't have any mercy or empathy for these kids, and I can see already what he is doing to my son, my son is literally transformed in the space of three weeks.

It sounds like H is weaponizing son. Attempting to drag him to his side. Involving son in that which son should not be involved. Whether that be willful or a more unintended product of H’s interact with son is unknown. I suspect H is looking for an ally.

Just now he [son] spent 1/2 an hour telling me what a loser I am, how lame that I can't afford the things I need, why I had to get a "real" job so that I could finally pay for things for this family, and the look on his face, of pure hatred, disdain, disgust. It's like he is absorbing the MLC monster and coming home to puke it out all over me.

Gerda, why allow this?

What would you do if the “reason” for son’s outburst and ill mannered disrespectful venting was not “caused” by MLC divorcing Dad?

Control. Son controls himself. Regardless of input.

If one of his friends had talked him into thinking you were a looser, would you accept it? Would you let son talk like that to you? Of course not! So do not let it happen because the “cause” is the divorce.

What is happening between you and H is between, and stays between, you and H. You and son’s relationship is your’s, separate from H, divorce, MLC, etc. Treat it as such. Talk to son and address his views.

Boundaries my dear. Son can control himself. He can think what he likes. And he can still be respectful. Willfully damaging a jewelry box is a passive aggressive action looking for admonishment. His behaviour will escalate until he finds what he is looking for.

Provide firm and gentle guidance to son.

Feel for you my dear. Sorry things have stirred up again.

D