She's OUT! #7

[Mumin]

Thanks Steve, I appreciate you taking the time and the dialogue helps me find my own nuances!

An update is that I said I prefer writing as communication moving forward and that's how it ha stayed for two weeks now.

[OnlyBent]

First, most LBSs aren't as concerned about their kids being around OP as much as they are concerned about there being an OP. Those LBSs are not being honest with themselves about that, but use their concern for their kids as an excuse to "keep tabs" on their STBX.

I have to disagree with you here Steve. My not wanting my S around OM has nothing to do with keeping tabs on her or them. I didn’t choose to have a child so that some other man could spend time with him and have influences on him that are out of my control. Whilst I understand that throughout his life my S will come under the influence of people out of my control (friends, teachers, etc), it is not the same as a quasi-fatherly influence.

I don’t know my W’s OM, but from what I do know about him, I don’t like his values and I definitely don’t want my S to spend significant time around a person with those values, especially when those values are being implicitly approved of by his mother.

[Spiral]

Mumin,

I totally understand where you are coming from. It is tough. But you should only something if you think that it is necessary and that it will change your STBX's behavior. The less you say, the more impact your words will have when you do say something. Save your influence for the big moments. Just understand that this will take quite a while to adjust to. It did for me too and this is the one that still bothers me.

Spiral

[sandi2]

First, most LBSs aren't as concerned about their kids being around OP as much as they are concerned about there being an OP. Those LBSs are not being honest with themselves about that, but use their concern for their kids as an excuse to "keep tabs" on their STBX.

The pain and sense of losing any say about who comes around your child, has to be one of the most difficult things to accept. I understand it's a sensitive subject, and it's not hard to make yourself believe it's for concern of your child........when in reality, it's more about accepting your loss of control. Don't get me wrong, b/c there is always room for doubting another person who will hold some type of influence in your child's life. I'd think it would be much more when that OP has participated in the breakup of your family.

It can come across as wanting to keep tabs on the other spouse. I'm not saying there is no true concern about how the OP affects the child. I see this as the same situation when LBS's grab hold of the advice not to communicate with the other spouse except when it's regarding the children. Well, everything is regarding the children, as far as finding a reason to contact the other spouse. I've said for a long time that LBS's use this excuse about their kids, to cover their real reason to make contact. It's not hard to see how that carries over to co-parenting. Yes, of course you want what's best for your child. What parent wouldn't? It's just not that simple when relationships are broken and there is hostility from either side.

So then you get to the question of whether or not you can trust your STBX to not have people that are harmful (legally speaking) to your kids well-being around said kids.

Taking into account we are talking about a spouse who has cheated and all the wonderful traits that goes hand in hand with waywardness.............this person cannot be trusted on their present character alone. I think there are some waywards who show a little more consideration for their small children, as long as it doesn't interfere with her agenda too much. As Steve points out, the fact a parent has chosen to have sex outside the bonds of M, doesn't seem to carry much weight in the courts.

WW's are quick to jump at any signs of the LBH trying to control some part of their (WW) life. I think what she choses to do with her children is just an extension of that mindset. Are there any exceptions? I would guess there are, but you just don't know for certain right away. So be observant and listen to your children. Don't put ideas into their heads, and just listen.

Ok I am fully with you there Steve (and others on this board), and I agree almost 100%.
The difference being, just because something isn't legally wrong doesn't mean I SHOULDNT voice my opinion.
If XW were feeding them only rice and butter (which has happened but stopped) and lets say that is legally ok.
Should I never say anything? Not even tell her I don't agree with it. Don't think so.
What will my own kids say in 20 years if they hear I never said anything while I was thinking/feeling something was wrong?
And what is the point of CO-parenting if general parenting principles are never even discussed.
Might as well do parallel parenting (which I have considered in some instances).

So in my mind there is a line were I DO say something that does not necessarily match the legal line.

I doubt there is anyone here who wouldn't feel the same as you. Once the WS has their own place and has their AP coming around the kids..........it's another level of anger and frustration for the LBS. BTW, I'm not blaming any parent for having concern about who is coming around their children. I'm just trying to get you to see reality and what you can control and what you can't. Sure, you can express your feelings to her.......for all the good it will do, but if she sees it as you being nosey or controlling, she won't cooperate.....b/c she doesn't have to. It could cause her to be harder on the kids, threatening them never to tell you anything.

As for the principles of co-parenting, I think you'll need to sit down with the lawyer over the custody issues. Get the legal definition of co-parenting and what that includes and what it doesn't. Now, I know one LBH in real life who put into the divorce/custody agreement that if his XW had a man staying overnight at her place when the children were there......the H automatically got full physical custody. And.......that's just what happened! I don't know if that could work everywhere, but it worked in that case. Apparently, the H knew it would just be a matter of time before she took a man home with her.

I think there is more parallel parenting that is simply referred to as "co-parenting". It's kind of like that "friends" issue. Like, how in depth does co-parenting go? You live separate lives, swapping your kids back & forth. It's not going to be like it was when you were living together. Your WW is more concerned about co-parenting when it involves the price of big gifts at Christmastime & birthdays. That's the harsh reality. When she needs a break, and wants you to keep the kids on her time. Things like that, you know?

I also read LBS's concern about questions their children may ask in the future. They have some kind of dread that their kids will hold them accountable. Sounds reasonable to me, but in real life, I haven't known that to happen a lot. Kids adjust to the sitch and grow up asking fewer questions than you might expect......especially when they are so small at the time of the split.

If your gut tells you something is wrong, then by all means, check into it.

I have to disagree with you here Steve. My not wanting my S around OM has nothing to do with keeping tabs on her or them. I didn’t choose to have a child so that some other man could spend time with him and have influences on him that are out of my control. Whilst I understand that throughout his life my S will come under the influence of people out of my control (friends, teachers, etc), it is not the same as a quasi-fatherly influence.

This quote from OnlyBent is coming from a place that I'm sure every parent could understand. My adult son had such a hard time when his kids talked up the OM......before he quickly became their step-father. My son's WW had replaced him with OM within a few days... and then he feared being replaced as a dad. I told him that he didn't have to "win over the kids, b/c he already had their love and would always be their dad, whereas, the OM was new on the scene and had to win them over. Once OM became the step-father, he stopped trying to win the kids love, and they grew to strongly dislike him. Their unhappiness in living with the true side of their SF didn't help our feelings. Know what I mean? You want your children to be well, safe, and happy.

I've seen this subject arise a lot when the LBS is dealing with the fresh rawness of their sitch. Even if they accept they've lost their spouse, the issue about who & what influences the children would seem even more difficult. I mean, how does one maintain objectivity, when the OP has caused you so much personal pain. I can only imagine, and from seeing it through my role as GM. That experience was painful enough, so my heart goes out to all of you who are facing this situation.

Can you never express your disapproval or concerns? Yes, of course. But before you get knocked down by the legal system, you need to check what you can control or change. Otherwise, it might turn into a life-long battle where you are powerless.

((hugs))

[OnlyBent]

Don't get me wrong, b/c there is always room for doubting another person who will hold some type of influence in your child's life. I'd think it would be much more when that OP has participated in the breakup of your family.

This is it Sandi. If the WAS/WS met someone after D who had not participated in the breakup of the family then accepting that person around your child, whilst still difficult, would be much more palatable. My S loved nothing more than our family, we went on amazing holidays together, enjoyed our weekends, etc. I just don't feel right exposing him to a person who was complicit in breaking that apart. I am fortunate that my STBXW and I have agreed that the other person has to approve of anyone who meets our S (though I realise that she was probably go back on that sooner or later).

[Mumin]

Thanks a lot everyone! As usual!
I have waited to see what happends and primarily if kids are affected in any way.
Might bring it up later, we will see.

Just had a weird exchange with XW.
As we exchange the kids tomorrow (she's had them for a week) I checked in to see if there is anything I need to know for the week.
She replies with several messages and pictures. Showing the kids new room (which she wrote she had spent long nights painting) and some pictures where they cuddle in front of TV.
I "like" the message where she explained the kids are doing fine, but didnt reply in any other way.

Now as I come back to the application she has recalled ALL messages and pictures that I didn't "like".

Not sure what to do about this. She is obviously pissed that I am not interacting with her...

[sandi2]

Now as I come back to the application she has recalled ALL messages and pictures that I didn't "like".

Not sure what to do about this. She is obviously pissed that I am not interacting with her...

Who cares if she's pi$$ed Mr. Nice Guy? Not you! You don't engage with elementary school age behavior from her. Perhaps in the future you should not initiate contact, asking if there is anything you need to know about the kids.......since she has no adult measuring device and therefore can't understand the question. Besides, if there is something you should know, she'll be sure to let you know it.

I don't remember whose post I wrote it on, but I've expressed why WW's are so eager to send photos of the children when they are on the mother's time. It is to keep you emotionally attached to her. Notice how the pictures were all about how happy the kids were doing in her new place. It nothing but manipulating your feelings. Rubbing the salt into your eyes.

If she refers anymore about the ones you didn't mark as "like", I'd be tempted to tell her to grow up. However, don't bother. There is no winning with someone like her.

[Kind18]

Google some videos on transactional analysis. Unfortunately, your ex can’t stay in healthy adult mode for your interactions. Her deleting photos you haven’t liked is just pure manipulation - cue child state.

Don’t interact, don’t respond... and understand that people who do this have deeply ingrained issues and most likely will never change.

She can be as pissed as she wants. That’s her problem, not yours.

[SteveLW]

Don't get me wrong, b/c there is always room for doubting another person who will hold some type of influence in your child's life. I'd think it would be much more when that OP has participated in the breakup of your family.

This is it Sandi. If the WAS/WS met someone after D who had not participated in the breakup of the family then accepting that person around your child, whilst still difficult, would be much more palatable. My S loved nothing more than our family, we went on amazing holidays together, enjoyed our weekends, etc. I just don't feel right exposing him to a person who was complicit in breaking that apart. I am fortunate that my STBXW and I have agreed that the other person has to approve of anyone who meets our S (though I realise that she was probably go back on that sooner or later).

This is exactly what i meant. Someone that comes along post D can be just as toxic, and even more dangerous to the kids. LBSs get fixated on OP when OP isn't really the problem, they are a symptom. But that fixation causes the LBS to "not want the OP around the kids for the sake of protecting the kids". It is misplaced. OB feelings are feelings, and you can't help how you feel, but be honest about them.

[sandi2]

Google some videos on transactional analysis. Unfortunately, your ex can’t stay in healthy adult mode for your interactions. Her deleting photos you haven’t liked is just pure manipulation - cue child state.

Don’t interact, don’t respond... and understand that people who do this have deeply ingrained issues and most likely will never change.

She can be as pissed as she wants. That’s her problem, not yours.

If we had a "like" option, I'd use it for this post.