Still learning, but leaning into the future...

[Sage4]

Time for a new thread!

Previous thread:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2907674&page=11

Quick recap:

Oct/Nov of 2019 H starts acting really distant after a very stressful year of work, travel and building our business. I find out about an EA with a client and lose my mind and say and do all the wrong things. H tells me he is not sure if he wants to work on the M, just wants to be happy. We start MC, but it feels like H is just ticking boxes. He goes to MC alone and then tells me he wants to separate and 'find out what he wants in life'. I didn't see any of this coming, I had no idea he was unhappy. I knew that work stress was intense for both of us, but I never thought we would be in the place. We have four young children and our relationship was the envy of all of our friends and family. H moved out in Aug 2020.

After a horrific year of monstering, spewing, being told all sorts of horrible things about myself and my personality and a complete re-writing of history, I am finally ready to drop the rope. I have spent the past year trying to see things from his perspective, examined what I have done wrong, how I need to change and blamed myself for all of our marital issues. We had an awful conversation on NYE, I held it together for the kids and afterwards once I was alone, I sobbed and sobbed. That was a turning point for me. I decided I can't live like this anymore. I can no longer be a punching bag for someone else's projections, emotions and issues that I did not cause. I did not break him. I cannot fix him.

I have spent the past month trying to build back my self-worth and self-esteem, but it is achingly slow. H and I have started D discussions and I have accepted that this is what he wants and that it is the most likely outcome. I do not want to be with someone who does not want to be with me. I am able to be calm, kind and considerate in our frequent interactions and I have established boundaries that feel clear and comfortable to both of us. If we weren't talking about D, I would say that things between us this past month are the best they have been in a year.

The latest discussion that was happening on my previous thread was about negotiating a D on our own. I think my expectation here is that we will start the process in good faith and see how far we can go on our own.

For anyone reading the in the future, the last few pages of my previous thread has some really good ideas and experienced suggestions for the D process, so it is worth reading. Below I have quoted some of the most salient points to my situation, thanks OwnIt, KML, Gerda and Wayfarer!

A suggestion, perhaps come up with a schedule of topics and try to deal with them in short meetings. Long meetings covering lots of topics are tough in the best of times. Have an attorney review anything before you sign. Know your deal breakers and your throwaways. People don't always want the same things and sometimes the other side really cares about something you don't. Also private resolutions provide much more flexibility than what the court can grant. So put on your thinking cap. What can you give him that you don't value and he might. Does he have fears you could allay in some way? Often people draw lines in the sand insistent on getting things the court can't even give them or fighting to the death over hypothetical issues.

Always good to get custody/visitation out of the way and it isn't something you can tradeoff for other factors.

I would recommend you have a consultation on your own with an attorney. Just to find out what are your rights, and what is reasonable to expect. All too often these �let�s work it out ourselves� situations result in the woman getting shafted more often than not.

Then ask for a little bit more than you�re entitled to, so you have some room to negotiate.

Also don�t forget life insurance in him sufficient to cover child support until the kids are grown and spousal support.

My dad also told me, based on his D from my MLC mom, that he got very good advice from his lawyer at the time. Cut all ties, leave nothing open. For my dad that meant giving her a credit for alimony and child support on her share of the house, so that after their D, they had no cause to have any financial discussion ever again.

----
The last question on my previous thread:

I don't know if he is fully aware of how much I contributed to our business and what it would cost to replace me and maintain the level of financial success we enjoyed. Is that something I should talk to him about? He is very sensitive about believing that he started this business all on his own, it's an ego thing for him, but I also have a vested interest in his success because I need support and alimony until I am able to be financially solvent. What would you guys do?

I will definitely have everything reviewed before I sign a thing. In the meantime, all the suggestions, experiences and thoughts are really helpful to me, so keep them coming!

[may22]

I don't know if he is fully aware of how much I contributed to our business and what it would cost to replace me and maintain the level of financial success we enjoyed. Is that something I should talk to him about? He is very sensitive about believing that he started this business all on his own, it's an ego thing for him, but I also have a vested interest in his success because I need support and alimony until I am able to be financially solvent. What would you guys do?

Hi dear Sage,

I've been thinking about this question of yours all day. I think it is a really tough one. It makes a lot of sense to me that his ego is wholly wrapped up into the idea of him doing this business all on his own, and he has probably taken very much for granted all the work you have done in the business. In many ways, it also mirrors how you have consistently taken on the lion's share at home too. he simply has no idea what it takes to run your household, let alone your business.

I worry that this is going to be really hard, because he is probably starting from such a fantasyland place with zero bearing on reality, and it is hard for you to both be the compassionate partner in detangling your marriage and business and at the same time be the truth-teller to someone who has buried his head for so long. I had some ideas of different strategies you might employ, all for you to take or leave:

-- you are such a good listener-- can you start this out by just asking him to share his thoughts? Maybe even say you want to understand what he is thinking and absorb it without responding at all? Direct him to a website that has the basics of what a community property D looks like and get his first take? That way you know what you're dealing with. maybe he could give it to you in an email or something, so you don't have any pressure to react in real time to it (at least in his sight).

-- instead of starting out with a D attorney, another option might be a counselor that specializes in divorce or in business breakups. I have a friend whose family went through a process of dividing up a big family business, and they hired a consultant/psychologist to manage the process. It wasn't cheap, but it might feel more collaborative and could help you hammer out a deal before you bring in the Ls.

-- I also wonder if you might reconsider the idea of starting out with a mediator, rather than wholly on your own. A mediator does this work all day long and a good one can really, really help without making it feel adversarial. It doesn't need to be shuttling back and forth to different rooms, I think you can be in the room, the three of you, and walk through things. That way you have a trained third party who both knows and understands the law (so you aren't the bearer of bad news on reality here) and can help you both go through all the necessary questions. I think the benefit of starting with a professional (even if you went the divorce counselor route rather than mediator) is that they might be able to keep it from going off the rails in the first place, whereas your H doesn't have the best track record in non-monstering when it just the two of you and he starts to feel uncomfortable or guilty. If you try on your own and he monsters, then you're starting from a negative point when you get to mediation rather than neutral or both feeling relatively positive about the process and situation.

-- I don't know if this is a fear of yours (or even a question given that your H needs to travel for work) but I had a major fear that once we got to the D part where H really understood the implications of giving me more than 50/50 custody-- not only getting less time with the kids but paying me more in child support-- that I would lose out on time with the children AND the $$, which I probably would have needed to help me keep this house. (though with interest rates where they are, I could have just refinanced, so there is that!) Anyway, I agree with the others that working out the custody part first and getting some agreement and closure on it could be really beneficial, before you get to the sticky business stuff.

You are such an amazing person, Sage. I'm glad that you're able to see past his confusion and sadness and that none of that has a single thing to do with YOU. Keep that beautiful head held high. You got this.

xx M

[Gerda]

The custody is the most important thing in every way. For them. They should not be around a crazy person half the time. And everything financial also depends on how much they are with you. Get that done fast, say that you want to make sure the children have a plan before you talk about money. My wasband filed for full custody, child support and alimony when he filed for D. He had barely even seen the children in three years, most of the time we didn't even know where he was. He only did this to get the money that came with it. He gave it up after only a few months and settled on pretty minimal visitation. And hasn't seen my son in almost two years. Granted, I STILL get no child support, but that's because my judge is the worst and my lawyers were bad. I will eventually get it.

So get that done first and do whatever you can to have sole physical custody (joint legal is fine if he is not dangerous!) with generous visitation.

Now about this other thing about him realizing what you did for the business. Insert an F word here, followed by "THAT." You think he is going to ever be able to realize/admit how amazing you were for your business when he can't realize/admit what a wonderful wife and mother you are?! Every single thing he has done to you as a woman HE WILL DO TO YOU AS A BUSINESS PARTNER. If you don't believe me, read my threads.

Sage, our situations are weirdly similar. The business partner thing is unusual on these boards and we both had that. So please learn from my he\\.

Here's your mantra -- JUST THE FACTS, MA'AM, JUST THE FACTS. What your H thinks does not matter and is IRRELEVANT. Why even let what he might think into your mind? It will only confuse you, just as it did after BD. Your only concern is what is true, not what he thinks is true.

So gather your files of what you did. The proof you would use at trial if someone said, "She did not even play a role in this business." It can include narrative and it can include e-mails and texts and any other correspondence you need to show that you were doing stuff for the biz, dealing with clients, applying for loans, call records to permit office, setting things up, buying curtains for the office, whatever the heck it is. Gather all that stuff together for your confidence now and the proof you'll need if court happens, and know the truth and don't worry about his ego. Just keep calmly repeating the truth and the outcome you want, and know how far from that outcome you are willing to go. Don't get distracted by other accusations except as a rhetorical strategy, to appear very surprised that he forgot all that you did. His ego is the reason he is destroying your family; do you really think you can tame that thing? Don't try to figure out what will work on him. Nothing will or everything will. It's pretty random. Just get your story straight for your own heart and mind and jump off with your parachute ready.

Another thing I did -- I set up a new company with me as the sole member, and I started using that to collect our rents. That company pays rent to me and H. Got him and his financial shipwreck off my record and made it really clear what is joint income and what is company income/expense. If you have a way to do something like that, do it now, seriously.

I always leave the boards for Lent, so I will soon not be here for a while. If you have any other questions you want me to answer, now is the time. (Unless by some common experience miracle you also live nearby?)

[may22]

Gerda always speaks such truth!

This:

His ego is the reason he is destroying your family; do you really think you can tame that thing?

Just really resonated. This is all wrapped up together, his ego, his leaving, his solo business success-- I don't see how he untangles this right now. Remember how he gaslit you on housekeeping? He'll find a parallel here... and DO NOT LET IT GET TO YOU. You know it isn't true, and you're in a much stronger place today than you were three or six months ago. You know the truth. Don't let it go.

HUGS. You got this.

[OwnIt]

Sage:

I think it is always a good idea to hear what he has to say. You don't have to agree with him and you don't have to (and shouldn't) fight with him about it. If he is leaving something out, ask a question that might direct him to what, for example a replacement cost is for something you would generally do, or how much he would have had to borrow to cover a start up cost, etc. Being argumentative is not going to work and it will shut down the discussion and not even provide his view of your situation, which believe me, will be very good to know. Have a dialog. Don't worry initially about an agreement. See if you guys have the same view, the same concerns. There may be lots of things you agree on, and as I said, you may be able to give him things he cares about and him the same with you. Then go back to your lawyer and discuss the areas of agreement, the areas of conflict, what has a work-around, what doesn't, etc. Divorces do not have to be nasty. They really don't. Smart people really can make common sense resolutions without spending hundreds of thousands of dollars.

I remain convinced that if my husband would just sit down and share his concerns with me, and be honest with me, and listen to my concerns, that we could reach an agreement. Too often you have a situation between the parties that is only exacerbated by an issue with the lawyer(s). That is definitely true with my husband's lawyer who very clearly has some serious issues. From the first contact he showed that he was not a neutral focused on a resolution, but rather he over-personalized the case, had no concept of the issues in the case, made allegations that were untrue and for which he had no knowledge, and was not at all interested in hearing how he may have misevaluated the case. An example. He sent my an attorney an email about what he saw as the difference in our incomes and in view of that because my husband had been paying me substantially more, he said that I had been able to pocket huge sums of money and put them in my retirement (never mind that the retirement in question was from a job I left before he moved out and that I had made no additional contributions to that retirement--my subsequent retirement funds were in a separate and clearly labeled account). He then proceeded to say that my husband should only have to pay me the difference in our incomes. Now that makes sense right? That would be a reasonable starting point (still problems, because my income is not predictable and guaranteed, his is, I get paid months after the end of a year, etc.). Except for one thing. He forgot that we have two very expensive children, a minor and one in college, for whom I pay 100% of the expenses. So either his point was that I should have to completely foot the bill for both children, or, more likely, he and my husband forgot we have two children that require support. When that was factored in, guess what, he had been paying the right amount. Did he come back and apologize for the nasty comments about me and his misperception of the case and the facts of the case? Not that I've ever seen. He has taken ridiculous positions like this at every turn and behaved in a completely unprofessional manner from the outset (I have video of his process server breaking into my house while I was out). While not every situation is as bad as this one, I caution you not to start out thinking it has to be ugly and expensive. Because it does not.

[Gerda]

Own, when you weigh in on legal stuff, it's so helpful for us all.

Is it considered a requirement for lawyers to be "neutral focused on a resolution"? If that's the case, my H's L should be disbarred. He has ignored, rejected or endlessly redlined every offer I made (dozens, in writing) and turned in fake documents and fraudlent tax returns for almost three years without ever providing a reasonable counterproposal or agreeing to any child support not to mention well-documented debt. I had bad lawyers, it's true, but all of them would emerge totally exhausted and flabbergasted from phone calls or meetings with him, saying that he was completely impossible.

Anyway, mostly just wanted to say that I love reading your legal posts, very helpful!

[OwnIt]

Sorry Gerda, bit of a clarification. Not a neutral in the sense of a mediator who should have no preference for either side. A lawyer should be a zealous advocate, within the bounds of the law and the requirements of professionalism, for their client but should remain personally detached so they can effectively evaluate the case and watch out for their client's best interest. A client does not need a buddy in attacking the other side, they need cool-headed detachment and an ability to weigh everything, good and bad, to properly advise a client about whether they should settle or litigate. When you begin to personalize a dispute, you've lost the ability to help your client.

[CanBird]

Hi Sage4.... Great advice from everyone.

I wasn't as savy, but am making the best of what I can now. DO look after YOU. It's business.

I went with my heart and not my head. LISTEN TO YOUR HEAD. Look at all the what if's. Cover all your bases.

GET everything in writing. Sure, you can work together, agree on things, but do get someone to represent you.

Best of luck.

[Gerda]

Sage, I am doing my rounds before my break. Wondering how it is going with this business stuff and with your life. Lots o' love.

[Sage4]

Gerda!!! xxxxx

Create a new thread so I can post on it before you take a lent break! I have been meaning to get on here and update and will do so later this evening. But I want to share some thoughts and love before you disappear for a while.

xx
S

[DnJ]

Good Morning Sage

You have some very wise advice regarding the business of divorce.

What your H thinks does not matter and is IRRELEVANT. Why even let what he might think into your mind? It will only confuse you, just as it did after BD. Your only concern is what is true, not what he thinks is true.

Facts matter. What actually happened, documented proof, matters. Divorce is the dissolving a business deal, and in this case it actually is a business. (Emotions aside for now)

What is factual is a concern, however it is not your only concern. What H thinks is true, is applicable. Not in the legal sense, nor in anyway you need to bow to it.

I lead people at work. A large part of that is mentoring and coaching. One needs to understand what another is thinking or feeling before they can influence a positive change within that person. The idea of their truth becomes especially clear and important when investigating an incident, accident, and such.

I work in an extremely hazard environment. Our daily routine work is managing and working with lethal energies - and that is not an exaggeration. A misstep in procedure, a misjudgement of distance to energized lines, can have dire consequences. Of course we have many safety protocols in place. It takes more than just one thing to go wrong. Still, each items is like the holes in Swiss cheese slices, when enough of them line up, bad things happen.

It is paramount that I, or whomever is investigating, understands what the person was thinking. What they thought was true. No one is going into work to have an accident. Investigations are not blame oriented, not to punish, they are to find the learnings, so everyone can benefit from the wisdom.

With H, what he thinks is true, matters. Just as much as what is actually factual and provable. Do not get wrapped up in his �truth�, nor his projections or fantasy. Detached understanding and seeing of his viewpoint allows you to understand him and negotiate better.

In my work life, that understanding of others leads to me being able to reach them and speak directly to what they thought and believed was safe or proper. That allows them and me to influence a change within them and their work practices. Follow up and positive reinforcement is needed for many weeks after to foster the change and the breaking of the errant habit. As you can see empathy and compassion would be requisites for anyone to be successful in influencing. Of course, I do have willing participants.

Understanding H�s thoughts and feelings, what he thinks is true, or wants to be true, is invaluable to you. That is gold for negotiating, or affecting a reasonable resolution to a confrontation.

I am sorry for my late response. Somehow I missed your post from two weeks ago. Anyhow, just throwing in my two cents.

D

[Gerda]

Gerda!!! xxxxx

Create a new thread so I can post on it before you take a lent break! I have been meaning to get on here and update and will do so later this evening. But I want to share some thoughts and love before you disappear for a while.

xx
S

Was gonna wait til after Lent but I will do it tonight if that is what you are offering! : )

[Gerda]

OK, Sage, I posted! You have til midnight to post on my thread. : ) Or I will see it when I get back or if I cheat!

[Sage4]

Hi friends!

I have been keeping up with all of your stories but haven't felt comfortable posting in a while. I am a little concerned about privacy and H finding me here, which isn't what I want or need at the moment. But I have decided I really have nothing to hide, or to be ashamed of, so I can't let fear dictate the communities or networks I engage in. This space has been so hugely supportive of me and I am so grateful for all of you.

Our initial D settlement talks were exhausting. To the bone. I would end each session with barely any energy left whatsoever, but would fake it for the children. We both needed a break and to think things over, so we pressed pause for a few weeks. We did a couple of sweeps across the big issues and I think that we are more or less in agreement with the big things. The details/minutiae might be a little more challenging, but we will try and if we can't come to a good agreement then we will bring in outside support. So really nothing to lose except for the emotional energy, which will be expended no matter what.

I am doing great these days. In fact, my relationship status notwithstanding, I would say I am the happiest I have been in a long time. A huge part of that was H taking more equitable time with the children. I have never had 50/50, or even 90/10 parenting support in my entire motherhood and it is AMAZING. So much so that I wonder where we would be right now if I had better boundaries from the beginning about more equitable household/parenting support. I am able to be a 110% mother when I have the children, but I also have time for self-care, professional development and mental health support. I am more 'me' then I have been in years and years.

I am also feeling very detached from H. Verging on indifference, thought I am not there yet. His actions still rile me from time to time. This detachment has given me the space to see so, so clearly that this whole situation is not about me. It's about him, his FOO issues and his insecurities. I was pouring love, attention and spousal duty into a bottomless cup and that, combined with my nearly sole responsibility for the children, household and emotional labor was exhausting. In some ways he is right that maybe I wasn't happy during the last couple of years of our marriage. I was weary to the bone, serving as much as I could to him, while also subconsciously looking over my shoulder knowing deep down that his insecurities and need for outside validation could result in EA's or PA's.

No matter what I did or didn't do in our M, I know this much to be true: there are ethical ways to end a marriage and he decidedly chose to not take an ethical path. Instead I was literally and physically broken (cue Gerda's amazing post on the heart being ripped out of my chest, being forced to watch and then being forced to understand why H must do such things to me). No one should have to endure such torture and cruelty. And who knows? Maybe instead of me spending a year in fight or flight mode, we spent this past year in intensive therapy, and came to the amicable conclusion that I can't give him what he needs and he can't give me what I need?

At the moment, I find H mercurial and passive-agressive. He is really challenging to be around. I look at myself and see someone who is growing (trying to!) and happy. In his absence, I have been blossoming into the 'real' me. And in my absence, he too is turning into the 'real' him. But the real him presents to me (maybe not to others?) as insecure, unbalanced, and passive-aggressive. Was I compensating for these behaviors in our marriage? I saw some of this in the early days of our R, but was the more emotionally equipped of the two of us and would 'talk' it through. He credited me time and again for being the first person in his life to actually name his emotions, not let him walk away in anger, and work through hard things. Not my job anymore.

A friend who is going through a similar situation, only she has been struggling in her marriage for 30 years told me 'take it as a blessing that he is unwilling to drag the R out over another decade or two. You have been given a gift and you just don't know it yet, take it from me.' No one else in my life but her could have said that to me, and I didn't buy it at the time. But now I am slowly understanding.

Finally, some advice needed: how do I deal with the passive-agressive behavior? In our M, I would gently bring it to his attention and we would work to get to the bottom of his feelings. But that is clearly not my role at the moment. And going NC is not practical for children and D settlement talk reasons. Any suggestions?

Lots of love to you all!

xx
S

[Traveler]

I have never had 50/50, or even 90/10 parenting support in my entire motherhood and it is AMAZING. So much so that I wonder where we would be right now if I had better boundaries from the beginning about more equitable household/parenting support. I am able to be a 110% mother when I have the children, but I also have time for self-care, professional development and mental health support. I am more 'me' then I have been in years and years.

I love this! Even 75% custody was AMAZING in my own divorce after being used to being a 90% dad. You are more you than you've ever been. You're finding time for self-care. This is all fantastic.

how do I deal with the passive-agressive behavior?

Sage, fortunately, or unfortunately, I don't have much experience with passive-aggressive ex's. Ellen Hendricksen has an article on dealing with such people. She suggests, if helping them get their feelings out isn't workable, to take a two-pronged approach of VALIDATE + HOLD THEM RESPONSIBLE. E.g., if you ask them to get the laundry out and they do so and drop it on the dinner table ("You didn't tell me where to put them or to fold them."), you VALIDATE ("You're right.") then HOLD THEM RESPONSIBLE ("Please fold them then put them on the bed upstairs.") Her use of "Validate" is a bit different than the DB meaning, since you're acknowledging their perspective.

Maybe others here have personal experiences to share. If you want tips for crazy ex's, I'm your guy!

[wooba]

Sage, so happy to hear that you�re doing well.

For passive aggressive behavior, I would do both: 1. Call it out 2. Do not engage depending on the situation.

I�m currently doing NC with my exH (only communicating when we�re scheduling visits), and I�ve found it to be the key of not getting dragged into his mental mess. So I�m curious- how much communication about the kids is really necessary between you two? If passive aggressive behavior is in person, I would call it out - �don�t be an ahole� would do. If it�s thru text/email, I ignore.

Also are you not going thru settlement talks with a L? Letting a L take over all D talk for me was the best decision ever.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Sage

Good for you to keep posting. There can be some privacy issues. However, the real overcoming is one�s fear. That irrational feeling of shame, wanting to hide, and so on. Nice to see you pushing through that. And yeah, you�ve got nothing to be ashamed of; letting fear dictate your behaviours and beliefs doesn�t serve you. Good job for altering that.

While we are looking at beliefs.

I am doing great these days. In fact, my relationship status notwithstanding, I would say I am the happiest I have been in a long time.

I am going to suggest a revision. An alteration / discarding to something which doesn�t serve you.

I am doing great these days. In fact, my relationship status notwithstanding, I would say I am the happiest I have been in a long time.

Your happiness is not contingent upon your relationship status. You can be sad about your relationship or anything really, and still be a happy joy filled person. No need to muddy the waters of your happiness.

there are ethical ways to end a marriage

Ain�t that the truth!

These trouble people choose, or are driven to, their narrow depression filled self destructive view point and go off the rails, usually in a staggeringly unethical display.

It is great to see you finding understanding of the gift you have been given. My XW�s gift to me was similarly received initially.

Finally, some advice needed: how do I deal with the passive-agressive behavior? In our M, I would gently bring it to his attention and we would work to get to the bottom of his feelings. But that is clearly not my role at the moment. And going NC is not practical for children and D settlement talk reasons. Any suggestions?

I like that you are asking about passive aggressive behaviour not a passive aggressive person. You�ve already done a couple of steps. First, is recognizing the behaviour. Second, separating the behaviour from the person.

During your M you would work to get to the bottom of his feelings. Very admirable. And quite in line with your role as wife, friend, confidant.

Passive aggressive behaviour stems from a person�s unwillingness or inability to face or recognize their feelings and stirred up emotions. Or even the absence thereof.

We cannot fix them. You current being fired from wife role hasn�t really changed that. It has changed how you interface with him and perhaps walk him through stuff.

Acknowledge his feelings. Validate them, for they are true. Do not argue against the person�s feelings, they feel what they do. This is done in a nonjudgemental way. Be factual, open, and honest. Use open ended statements that promote further discussion (if you want or when it is appropriate). Imagine a child angry at been told to clean their room. They are procrastinating, dragging themselves around, stating they�re �fine�, and so on.

You seem upset having to clean your room.

Notice no question or judging or attempt to modify their outlook or seeing if you are to blame like this example - Are you upset with me for telling you clean you room? You know if you put you stuff away it wouldn�t get in the disastrous state and we wouldn�t need to go down this road every few weeks.

Lol.

Just acknowledge their apparent feelings (you don�t actually know what they are feeling), their display of emotions or behaviour. It�s not them, it�s their behaviour, their reaction to their emotions.

This does a few things. It validates and bring accountability and clarity of the situation. Many times a passive aggressive behaviour is rooted from not understanding their feelings, not being able to put it into words. That is not from being too stupid or anything like that, it is from being emotional highjacked. It is the irrational mind taking over, and one cannot rationalize their pressing irrational emotions in that state. Many times people need it to be acknowledged and pointed out.

After that, time and space. The person needs both of those, to consider their emotions and their responses to their emotions. They need to calm, or step up, or walk back whatever trouble they�ve stirred up, or whatever other appropriate approach is required. Of course, a person in crisis is a very troubled individual.

That is where boundaries come in. After clearly and non-judgmentally acknowledging their behaviour and apparent emotions, if they persist in furthering things, continuing to be aggressive, it usually becomes disrespectful. Place boundaries on disrespectful behaviour - not on the person. (Remember step 2. Separating person and behaviour).

Boundaries are for you. They do not alter the aggressor. They do influence, it is up to them what they will do will the feedback, the acknowledgement, and the eventual boundaries which all depends upon how far they do push their passive aggressiveness.

Remember, you only control you.

It does help to realize that people are doing what they can with the tools they have. A passive aggressive response is likely and quite common in our not taught emotions or coping world. Pretty sad state when you look at it. Which is highlighted in the staggering failure rate of marriages or relationship strife.

No contact is another tool. A protective tool for your mental health. A boundary could, and usually does, include a no contact if/when the disrespectful behaviour is exhibited or happening. A blanket no contact is not a boundary. Boundaries are specific to a given and identified circumstance or event.

So, you can be NC for those disrespectful times during D negotiations. H, when you swear and call me name, I�m hanging up.

For the practicalities regarding the children. Life and limb decisions get discussed. Monetary support issues get discussed. Anything else is not needed. A more amicable divorce or split would allow other discussions to take place, which would be nice. However, basically, regarding kids: Your house, your rules. H�s house, H�s rules.

If and when H can put away his passive aggressive behaviour you can discuss and jointly decide childrearing choices together. (I never got that opportunity, which was just fine by me) No need to engage in the tug of war with him.

D

[wayfarer]

I'm glad to hear you're doing so well my sweet Sage!! You deserve all the good in this blessed mess. Finding yourself again is a huge step on the path to healing and here you are. Everything you've said is super uplifting minus the logistical divorce stuff. My only concern with this hashing it out amongst yourselves thing you're doing is that if the minutia is going to a mediator or to be discussed between attorneys all this big stuff you're dumping all this energy into will be thrown out the window the second 3rd parties enter in. I just don't want you expending any more bandwidth than necessary with someone who very likely will change his mind in the 11th hour and you'll have to start from scratch. I don't say any of this to discourage your efforts, more so just to keep an eye on how much of your yourself you're putting into coming to an agreement H may just throw out the window.

As to the passive aggression. I think CW, wooba and DNJ have good advice. I would add, people who are passive aggressive are too cowardly to say what they really want to say unfiltered and too childish to be introspective about why they want to react so badly. The most passive aggressive people on the planet are middle school girls sometimes that seeps in to high school. Think about how you dealt with those girls in middle school and high school. How did they deal with it when their behavior didn't phase you in the least? How did they react when they got a rise out of you? While I like the idea of calling it out, you will have to be in a place to call it as it is as unbothered as possible. Wooba's suggestion of "don't be an ahole" is a pretty good way. What I'm saying here isn't you can't be soft if you're going to call it out. You can't say things like "can't we just be kind to each other" or "you know it really isn't helpful when you talk to me like that." It needs to short, to the point, nip it in the bud like you simply don't have time for that. I would also not validate here. There's no point. What's the point in feeding his ego when he's talking down to you? It isn't written any where in anything that we need to be considerate and kind to people who treat us in an ugly way. Your other option here is like wooba suggested don't engage at all. Act like you didn't even notice he was being a duck, and go about your day.

When you deal with H you need to ask yourself how would I deal with a mean girl? That's what your dealing with. Passive aggression is covert bullying. I can say anecdotally when I saw a mean girl being a mean girl to some one else in HS I'd say "Hey Becky no one is paying you to be a b*tch. How about you sit the eff down and shut up?" That would usually shut them up. If they tried to start with me I'd roll my eyes and walk away. Obviously not mature versions of how you probably should approach H when he's being a Becky. But I just wanted you to be able to visualize what you are dealing with. A grown man acting like a 15 year old girl. I hope that can offer some perspective.

Thinking of you often xoxoxo

[kml]

Interesting discussion about passive-aggression. My boyfriend CMM is the king of passive aggressive responses, but I've learned that he lacks the insight to discuss them. Since I know his time on earth is limited with stage 4 lung cancer, and have come to grips with his underlying obsessive compulsive personality disorder, I generally simply ignore. I don't take the bait. I have no expectations to change him, and I know my time of dealing with those aspects is limited. (Sounds cold, I guess, but knowing that he probably will only live another year or two at best makes it easier to let go of things that might be a dealbreaker for me in a long-term relationship. And while this makes him sound kinda awful, he has many good qualities too, including that he loves me maybe more than any other man I've been with, and he does everything he can for me. )

So you have few expectations of changing your stbx at this point too, and know you won't really have to deal with this much longer. Maybe simply ignoring or letting go of his passive aggressive behaviors would work for you too?

[Michka]

I am currently in my second seperation with my husband.... I found the best way to deal with his behaviour was to use "grey rock". I guess its sort of like last resort/180 but with the added twist of being boring. It helped my sanity.

[job]

Michka,

Please start a thread of your own so that we can assist/support you.

[Sage4]

Hi friends, lovely to catch up on all the goings-on of your lives. I hope you all had a lovely Easter weekend!

I am struggling with some feelings and am in need of advice. Since I have last written, not much has changed in my situation: H and I are still trying to negotiate a D settlement on our own and are perhaps somewhat close, but it has been bringing out some trialing interactions. It might be time to bring some outside resources in, but I am still hesitant to do so and can't identify why. Is it because it means we failed? Or am I afraid that it will bring out even more of the monster/hatred? I am usually practical and self-assured in my decision-making but in this instance I am really waffling.

During our last in-person conversation, H said a really horrible, mean thing to me. I haven't been able to let it go, it was really mean, totally unnecessary and really, really hurt me. And it hurt my confidence to continue to try and work this out between us. So I haven't been able to respond to his latest offer. When he asked for a response today, I truthfully told him my feelings (the process felt overwhelming to me, I was scared to offer something in case upon further review I realized it wasn't practical, etc). And I also brought up the hurtful thing he said and how deeply damaging it was to my heart and my confidence. I tried to be open and tried not to blame ('I'm sure you feel the same way towards me as well'). But he responded saying he never said such a thing to me. WTF?? Why would I make that up?? Does he not remember? And why doesn't he remember? Is he OK?

And then H told me to stop emotionally manipulating and labeling him and using things against him (and then went on to do just that to me). I haven't responded yet. I don't know what to say.

This sort of thing has been happening for the past month or so and it is starting to make me feel like I am crazy (or he is? But does that make me a crazy person if I am blaming someone else for being crazy? Or am I just making him crazy? Woah. Sorry, lots of 'crazy' in these parenthesis!).

I try to do something nice, or be amicable/communicative or accommodating and then it gets used against me, whether immediately, or down the road. If I'm cool and distant, I must be plotting something. If I'm kind and considerate, that wasn't my real intention now was it? I really can't win and I know I need to just step out of the game, it's totally rigged, but I just can't seem to shake my nature of wanting to be kind and loving to all. And how do you step out of the game when you have children together and are negotiating a D?

A wise friend told me the other day that in some ways, me being nice is not actually nice to H. He can't see it right now. He can't take it. It is like when we are sleep-training our babies and just want to go in and hold them when they are crying, but knowing that it just prolongs the agony. (Wise friend reads here, so hugs to her xx)

I just so desperately want to authentically be me. Kind, loving, compassionate, considerate of others, accommodating where I can. A good friend. A good person. My R with H is the only inauthentic arena of my life and it is killing me. I don't know how to act. I don't know what to do.

I just wish we didn't have children together so I could step far, far away from this madness. (Never would wish away my children, obviously, just wish I didn't have to coparent with H right now).

Having a down day, thanks for listening.

[DnJ]

Hello Sage

H said a really horrible, mean thing to me. I haven't been able to let it go, it was really mean, totally unnecessary and really, really hurt me. And it hurt my confidence to continue to try and work this out between us. So I haven't been able to respond to his latest offer.

(((Hugs)))

Hurt people, hurt people.

My W condescendingly and so smugly told me I�d never find true love like she did with OM, but she�d tell me all my flaws so I could maybe work on them to maybe find an ok relationship in the future. The list of flaws, she estimated would take a few hours to go over.

That is quite funny - now. At the time, I was destroyed. Confidence shot. Self doubts everywhere and about everything. And yes, it hurt a lot!

H is projecting upon you. He also knows you, how to hurt you, and which buttons to push.

Now the hard part. Pay him no heed. You know you best! His words are just words. Just him projecting his own pains, fears, depression and despair upon you.

You know better! You only feel not.

I am struggling with some feelings and am in need of advice.

Do realize your feelings are real.

Do realize your feelings do not make it is real.

H�s mean comments stir up fears, which are self reinforcing. That makes it difficult to let go.

the process felt overwhelming to me, I was scared to offer something in case upon further review I realized it wasn't practical, etc

A possible future event. Check.
A hurt or pain. Check.
A trigger. Check.
All irrationally tied together is fear.

Your actions of offering triggers the possible future of it being a poor offer and then you�d have to suffer with a bad deal. That coupled with H�s meanness and horrible words keeps the feeling going.

It might be time to bring some outside resources in, but I am still hesitant to do so and can't identify why. Is it because it means we failed? Or am I afraid that it will bring out even more of the monster/hatred? I am usually practical and self-assured in my decision-making but in this instance I am really waffling.

No one want to see more monster or hatred. And all of us dislike feeling we failed. For me, my separation agreement and divorce felt like failure. They are not failures, yet at the time that is how I felt. And feelings are irrational and tie that fear and feeling tightly.

I tried to be open and tried not to blame ('I'm sure you feel the same way towards me as well'). But he responded saying he never said such a thing to me. WTF?? Why would I make that up?? Does he not remember? And why doesn't he remember? Is he OK?

And then H told me to stop emotionally manipulating and labeling him and using things against him (and then went on to do just that to me). I haven't responded yet. I don't know what to say.

This sort of thing has been happening for the past month or so and it is starting to make me feel like I am crazy (or he is? But does that make me a crazy person if I am blaming someone else for being crazy? Or am I just making him crazy? Woah. Sorry, lots of 'crazy' in these parenthesis!).

H �s emotions are cranked to 11. He cannot handle anything more. And his empathy chip is broken.

Of course he denied saying it. Firstly, he probably did forget, as he has no empathy right now. He is quite indifferent towards you. Secondly, once being reminded, he would again deny, and lash out. He cannot handle feeling what he said and then projects upon you. Him telling you to stop manipulating and labelling him is an example of that. Thirdly, he uses the very things you said against you. A defence and attack to protect his tormented self. Then it starts the whole process over after he denies/forgets again.

Is he ok? He is in crisis.

What he is doing is a form of gaslighting. Although I tend to believe that MLCers are more unintentionally and far less nefariously practicing that art. Their gaslighting is more a byproduct of their psychosis and emotional pressures than a determined and calculated manipulation. Still, it is crazy-making for us. See the truth of it and be free.

I try to do something nice, or be amicable/communicative or accommodating and then it gets used against me, whether immediately, or down the road. If I'm cool and distant, I must be plotting something. If I'm kind and considerate, that wasn't my real intention now was it? I really can't win and I know I need to just step out of the game, it's totally rigged, but I just can't seem to shake my nature of wanting to be kind and loving to all.

That sounds about right on spot for the MLCer�s script.

They have the attention span of a gnat. And can yet can conjure something you said and twist it against you.

One only wins by not playing.

how do you step out of the game when you have children together and are negotiating a D?

I just so desperately want to authentically be me. Kind, loving, compassionate, considerate of others, accommodating where I can. A good friend. A good person. My R with H is the only inauthentic arena of my life and it is killing me. I don't know how to act. I don't know what to do.

A few suggestions:

Do not get wrapped up in his �truth�, nor his projections or fantasy. Detached understanding

Reaffirm your detachment. You need not get drag around by his outbursts and emotions.

Realize you can step out of the game when you have children together. That realization makes it possible, which is the needed first step.

Uncouple the desperate wanting to be you. To be kind, compassionate, and such. To bring authenticity to the only inauthentic area of your life, your R with H. How? Realize you are you. You already are authentically kind, compassionate, considerate, and such. Realize the authentic R with H. Notice it�s the R with H, not your R with H. Do not take on such responsibility. A relationship takes two, not one. �My R� is not accurate and leads to inauthentic and unachievable expectations; those killing feelings. Be authentic with the relationship with H.

As your wise friend counselled, being nice to H is not actually being nice to H. He cannot see it. He cannot accept it. Compassion has a component of indifference to it. Step back and let H take his path. And his consequences.

Institute boundaries on unacceptable and disrespectful behaviour. How? Set ground rules and goals for discussions. We will be polite and not attack one another. We are here to achieve a fair spilling of assets. If H goes off, you leave.

Consult a lawyer with the agreement you have so far. This will belay those reinforcing emotions by having a professional looking it over. If you wish to continue to progress to an agreement between you and H sans the back and forth of each other�s lawyers, you can still utilize one yourself to confirm you are on the right track. However, I do think a L is a good idea. Especially considering the events of the last month and H�s attacking comments.

Sage, I believe stepping back, seeking some legal counsel, and enforcing boundaries will have you back to your confident, self-assured, decision-making self.

(((Sage)))

D

[kml]

Yes you need a lawyer. You can�t negotiate with someone who gaslights you and brings out such fear in you. And trying to be �nice� usually results in the LBS getting ripped off in divorce negotiations.

Let�s do a quick test. Is he offering you:
Half of all assets acquired during the marriage, including half of any pensions or retirement accounts?
Alimony by state formula for half the years if your marriage based on the difference between your incomes (if there is a difference)?
Child support based on the differences between your incomes, by state formula?
Life insurance on his life to cover his child support and alimony obligations if he dies?
Money for you to retrain if you can�t work in the industry you and he worked in?

If he�s not offering you these things you�re probably not getting a fair shake.

Your situation especially is complicated since you worked in the �family business� but he�s the public face and there�s no resale value of the business per se. You really need an attorney�s advice for this. Maybe mediation where you meet with a mediator but have your own outside attorney advising you as well. (That�s what I did).

[Gerda]

((((SAGE)))))))

Decided to continue my Lenten fast for a bit longer but then I saw this and moaned, "HAVE I TAUGHT YOU NOTHING, MY CHILD?"

I jest in tone/condescension but not in the seriousness of wishing you would take my story as a message directly to you.

Your H is not in that body anymore. Don't look for him there.

His eyes can't see you. Don't try to make yourself visible to him.

Cutting him off may be the best thing you can do for him -- or it might not. He's bonkers.

You ARE a woman of grace and love and forgiveness. But that doesn't mean you should stick your hand out through the bars to pet a poisonous snake. Nor does it mean you should stand there while this incarnation of H torches your home and your family and your marriage and your business and say, "I JUST WANT TO BE NICE TO YOU! YOU HURT ME!" as if he will suddenly slap his forehead and say, "Ooooooh, you are right! I should be nice to you! What have I been thinking!" and run for the hose to douse the flames.

He doesn't give a sh%t how he makes you feel. That is why you are in this mess.

He CAN'T give a sh%t about how you feel. He's either in MLC from a deep wound that pre-dated your or he has NPD and you didn't notice before.

That is why you can forgive him. Because he can't have empathy right now, no matter what you say or do. Like a person with no legs being asked to run.

As far as negotiating or not -- I would instead use the metaphor of puppies at play. If they bite too hard, they get pushed out of the playspace. Or nipped by their mom. He just bit you too hard. You tried to settle his divorce (not yours!) in an adult way. It didn't work. He bit you. And isn't even aware he bit you.

What I would do is send him KML's message, saying, "Hey, H. This is the default of a divorce in (your state). (KML list here) If you aren't able to go by this list, we can try to work it out in mediation. Here are two mediators we can try. You can pick one. I'm available April 14 and April 17, anytime."

Keep records of all your efforts to settle amicably. You'll need it if he keeps spinning out and tries to get legal fees from you because you delayed.

What's that you say? You didn't delay?

Yeah, me neither. I was just in court to defend myself against my H's fifth motion for contempt. He yelled at me the whole time and had to be repeatedly told to stop. Afterwards, he picked up my D from school and told her, "The court doesn't like Mama at all. If she doesn't stop yelling, they are going to put her in jail."

And in his papers his L sang the same song he always sings, that I am delaying these proceedings and should cover all his legal fees even though I clearly can't even afford my own lawyer and have a packet of maybe two dozen settlement offers I sent in the past two years.

Just telling you that so you can see where your H is going to go with this, if you try to negotiate. Just stick to the default in your state and dig in your heels and give up anything you are willing to give up only if he seems totally read to settle. Get out as quick as you can.

If it's MLC, then the real H will come back to himself one day and you can be nice to him then.

[Sage4]

DnJ, you are probably tired of telling me the same things in different words. I am so grateful for your steady presence and gentle reminders.

I have been working on sorting out feelings vs logic lately and overall believe I have been doing a good job. Yesterday just threw me and I fell off the feelings wagon for a bit. Your words steadied me and helped me get back on the horse.

Helpful takeaways that I needed to be reminded of:
Hurt people hurt people.
Projections, most of it.
I control me.
Boundaries (revisit these for myself and fortify the ones that need fortifying).

Also, this made me want to cry:

My W condescendingly and so smugly told me I�d never find true love like she did with OM, but she�d tell me all my flaws so I could maybe work on them to maybe find an ok relationship in the future. The list of flaws, she estimated would take a few hours to go over.

That is quite funny - now. At the time, I was destroyed. Confidence shot. Self doubts everywhere and about everything. And yes, it hurt a lot!

Cry with both empathy for you (as I have heard different, but similarly hurtful things) and at the absurdity of wanting to hurt a good person like that. In both your XW and my H's situation, it is almost as if your and my strength (serenity, goodness, love, compassion) is too powerful a force, one that must be beaten down, smashed, broken in an attempt for our spouses to gain some sort of internal sense of power or control. Except it didn't work, did it?

Speaks to the unbreakable power of goodness, integrity and a well-lived life.

KML, thank you for your wisdom and advice. Check to all the items on your list. H is not necessarily trying to take me for a ride, nor I him; it is the emotional side of things that are in the way to success at the moment. Could I get more? Probably. Could he? Probably. I think it was your exH that said 'if both of us feel like it was unfair, then it was probably fair.' I think we're pretty close to that mark. I have more legal experience than he does and always did the books/taxes/family financials. No wool over these eyes.

GERDA!!
I want to give you a BIG squishy hug!!!! Welcome back, I hope Lenten was a restorative period for you. I am SO happy to hear from you!

The first thing I thought of when I read your post was an old quote I read somewhere:

Never grow a wishbone, daughter, where your backbone ought to be.

You are a master at words and imagery:

You ARE a woman of grace and love and forgiveness. But that doesn't mean you should stick your hand out through the bars to pet a poisonous snake.

And I have been ruminating on this all day:

He's either in MLC from a deep wound that pre-dated your or he has NPD and you didn't notice before.

That is why you can forgive him. Because he can't have empathy right now, no matter what you say or do. Like a person with no legs being asked to run.

Beautiful and true.

As far as negotiating or not -- I would instead use the metaphor of puppies at play. If they bite too hard, they get pushed out of the playspace. Or nipped by their mom. He just bit you too hard. You tried to settle his divorce (not yours!) in an adult way. It didn't work. He bit you. And isn't even aware he bit you.

My girls and I volunteer with young rehabbed miniature horses, most of whom were taken from their mothers as foals (they're so tiny then!) and then abandoned when they get bigger. They are a little unruly: nip, bite, kick. The girls asked me why and I told them that when a horse is taken away from its mother too soon, it doesn't learn the appropriate social skills a horse needs to be a good horse. A mother horse will bite a foal back, just like your puppies, to teach it not to ever bite. Otherwise it never learns.

H wasn't given the tools he needed when he was young, so like with the miniature horses, I have to use a slightly firmer hand and more clear boundaries than I would with a properly raised horse. Thanks for the delightful analogy!

If it's MLC, then the real H will come back to himself one day and you can be nice to him then.

Oh, I know this is true. I just want to be nice NOW. What a waste of life for all these MLCers who spend so long fighting instead of looking inwards or recognizing love and kindness when it cloaks them in a velvety embrace.

Sigh. Oh well.

xxx
S

[DnJ]

Hi Sage

DnJ, you are probably tired of telling me the same things in different words.

Nope, not even close.

I enjoy talking with you.

In both your XW and my H's situation, it is almost as if your and my strength (serenity, goodness, love, compassion) is too powerful a force, one that must be beaten down, smashed, broken in an attempt for our spouses to gain some sort of internal sense of power or control.

Yes, that is it. They are out of control and try all kinds of things to feel better and in control of their lives.

Except it didn't work, did it?

No it did not. Lol.

All their stubborn blameful prideful unjustified projections does not make it so. Try as they might.

I have been working on sorting out feelings vs logic lately and overall believe I have been doing a good job.

You are doing an excellent job!

Next up, beliefs. Logic (and feelings) vs beliefs.

By the way, feelings vs logic vs beliefs, is not a battle between them to see which comes out on top. Each is important and each strengthens and influences the other. We are just getting them organized and straighten out is all.

D

[wooba]

Oh Sage. Hugs.

Nothing you do will be right to your H. Therefore it doesn�t matter what his reactions are. You keep doing you. You want to be kind, keep being kind. Keep doing the right things for yourself.

Definitely get a lawyer to do all the legal talk. Hiring a lawyer was a turning point for me because it further eliminated all the unnecessary back and forth between me and my ExH. Even though financially didn�t help me too much, it definitely help with my SANITY!!!!

I�m sorry that you were hurt by his words. It will take awhile, but one day his words won�t mean much to you anymore. Imagine a crazy person yelling at you on the subway in NYC. You wouldn�t care much would you? You will be able to shrug it off.

Are you a country chick? Either way, I�d recommend listening to the Chick�s �gaslighter� album. It was a great outlet for me to sing along. Lol.

[may22]

I think the problem with being kind and compassionate to someone in as much crisis as your H is that it holds up a mirror to him and he can't handle that. Deep down, he knows who you are, and every time you show him compassion it breaks him a little more because he sees you and the enormous contrast between your behavior and his own. He seems to have zero control over his feelings and actions. And he knows you well enough to know how to really hurt you... it feels like this just keeps ratcheting up and getting worse. I mean, I know when they go low we should go high (heart emoji) but in this case he is just drilling a giant oil well in the ocean floor and won't stop until the entire ocean is polluted. He is out of control.

Can you say to yourself, the kindest thing to do is to NOT engage? As DnJ says, sometimes the true act of compassion may be not being outwardly compassionate because that is what the recipient needs? It may not FEEL compassionate to you, but because you're focused on what the other person needs and not what you need yourself to feel like you're being compassionate, it truly is? (Does that make any sense? I feel like I'm talking in circles).

I don't necessarily think your H has NPD, but I wonder if grey rock is a good strategy for you here, at least until you get to that place Wooba talks about where he can't hurt you.

(((SAGE)))

Also.... miniature, baby horses. I can't.

[wayfarer]

Sage,

I think everyone with the most eloquent words has told you be kind and compassionate to yourself first, and the most kind and compassionate thing you can do for H right now is bow out. Since all of that's been covered, I'm taking off my enlightened, wise Wayfarer hat and putting on my funny and p!ssed off girl hat.

#1 rule of being an American, we don't negotiate with terrorists. Say it with me Sage, WE DO NOT NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS. H is an emotional terrorist. He will do everything in his power to make you as visibly miserable as he feels inside. Every chance he gets to blow this process up he will take it. With or without a lawyer. But with a lawyer you have an officer of the court taking note of every insane moment in time, and a person on your side whom H can't torture. An L couldn't care less about whatever non-sense H or H's hypothetical L could throw at them. It is literally their job to deal with that hot mess for you.

Go grey rock. Go as dark as you can with out tipping the scales. Stop trying to do this amicably with H. It hasn't been amicable. It's been you doing the heavy lifting. You know this. Hire some one to do the heavy lifting. Get a L. Get a L ASAP.

I say this with the utmost love and all of my short Latinx energy: If I could call a cousin to sort H out for you or slash a tire or 3 myself I would (jokes only folks I promise), but since this is the best I can do, please, take in what every one is saying, take a few deep breaths and pull the trigger on a lawyer. Do this for you. You deserve the peace it will bring.

PS Sorry to hijack your thread but this needs to be addressed:

Are you a country chick? Either way, I�d recommend listening to the Chick�s �gaslighter� album. It was a great outlet for me to sing along. Lol.

This is how I know you you're my people Rumours, Lemonade and Gaslighter for DDAAAYYYSSS!

[cardinal]

(((Sage)))

I am late to the game here, but I hope you are still feeling better and stronger and, like WF says, turning that compassion toward yourself.

I just so desperately want to authentically be me. Kind, loving, compassionate, considerate of others, accommodating where I can. A good friend. A good person. My R with H is the only inauthentic arena of my life and it is killing me. I don't know how to act. I don't know what to do.

I empathize with this so much. I remember writing something very similar not too long ago, struggling with feeling inauthentic, false around my H. I still feel this way sometimes. But your H's reaction to your vulnerability and honesty reminds me why it just won't work. They're just really unable to handle it--to see it, to, as Gerda says, see us, empathize with us, or even mostly, it seems, when they are in this state, to receive compassion. Maybe deep down your H doesn't believe he is worthy of your kindness or love, or of kindness or love.

At any rate, regardless of what you can or can't express to your H, you are authentic. You are kind, loving, compassionate, a good friend, a good person, all of that and more. His behavior doesn't change who you are.

[Sage4]

Hi friends! I have missed writing here and thought I was long overdue for an update. I hope to get a chance to post on your threads, but I have been reading along and cheering from the sidelines to your wise words and perspectives on your own and other�s sitches.

It has been a very up-and-down tumultuous spring; there have been so many great developments in certain aspects of my life (professionally, my kiddos, my mental attitude) and some really hard ones (my M). After attempting to go-it-alone with divorce settlement talks, we have finally hired Ls. Collaborative divorce lawyers, which feels very much in line with my values and ethics and I have hope that it will keep things cleaner than they could be with traditional Ls.

I can proudly say I am firmly detached and really ready for the D process to begin in earnest and conclude sometime this year. The further out from my marriage I get, the more I see how much imbalance existed in it and how I have spent the past 10 years merely surviving instead of thriving.

I don�t want to get into details, but H is not the person I thought he was, in any sense of the word. I know that D can bring out the worst in people, so I am allowing some wiggle room there, but there are some deep personality traits that I now see I unconsciously enabled and compensated for in our R. The freedom and sense of peace and happiness I now feel, nearly a year out from separation, as well as the complete absence of some mystery health issues I faced for years is enough to tell me that this is truly the right path for me and my future. All of this notwithstanding, I have had recent bouts of questioning my sanity and culpability, to an unhealthy extreme at times. But having good therapy, wise friends, a supportive community and internet resources such as this community have given me the tools to understand that perhaps I am not as crazy as I allowed myself to believe.

As I begin to work with my L and understand that my rights are (or should be) equal to his in terms of how our life is structured moving forward, I am overwhelmed with such relief. There is a very real possibility that at the end of the day, my life is going to be easier than it ever has been, by order of magnitudes due to our wildly imbalanced professional and personal lifestyle. I wish I had taken all of your advice to retain a L long ago.

Hindsight is of course 20/20 and I hope that this next little tidbit may be useful to a future reader going through something similar. Much of this is an echo Gerda�s post of a few weeks ago, a worthy read for all. But here is my current feelings about what I have experienced in this hard, painful process:

I am a strong, independent woman who always trusted my intuition and felt assured of my decision-making capacity (and my ability to pivot should I make a poor decision). I felt healthy, strong and mentally balanced. I felt like I had internal resources in excess and as such, when H came flying at me with all his accusations about my character, my conduct during our M and my reaction to his blindsiding ILYBNILWY, I listened and internalized them much, much more than I ever should have. He played on my strengths and used them as fuel as to why he had to leave 15 years of misery. I trusted him and allowed him to tear apart everything that made me, me. All the sides of me that I valued, that other people in my life valued, that honestly was what attracted him to me in the first place, became a burned-out village, smoldering in spots and no longer recognizable.

I did this. I allowed this to happen. My eagerness to grow and change, my desire to save my M, and my curious nature, coupled with the codependent dynamics that have existed in our M allowed this to happen. And as I am rebuilding that village, I am able to see where the weaknesses existed, some of the huts were dry tinder begging for a spark. And now I get to rebuild it all of bricks and stone if I wish. Or not. But it�s mine and it�s me and I get to decide what rises from the ashes.

The deep irony in all of this is that I have daughters who are so much like me. Strong, independent, self-assured, but also open, loving, caring and community-minded. If I let H continue to tear down those essences of me, I am allowing him to vicariously do the same for my daughters. Not on my watch. And I will lead them by example. You too, dear daughters can be strong and capable. Don�t ever apologize for that; it is celebrated in men. And you can also be kind and loving and empathetic. You can hold it all, and you will.

The pendulum has had some wild swings in this regard: in staking my claim to what is my equal right, I have experimented with going forcefully in the other direction (�I have to stand up for myself! Bring out the big guns!�) when a more balanced tact would have sufficed. I forgive myself these extremes, have apologized where necessary; I am learning as I go. And having a compassionate legal team on my side has helped ballast the boat, I don�t have to go it alone.

I am still in the midst of some hard stuff. Triggers occur daily. I am traumatized on a lot of levels. But I am just enough above the clouds to see that this isn�t going to be forever, that time will heal me, H and the children. That H and I will likely come out the other side in a few years and be able to communicate normally, put our children first and both lead successful lives. That�s my north star anyway.

Thanks for reading, I adore you all.

Xx
S

[DnJ]

Hello Sage

What a good update. You sound great.

Nice to see you both have lawyers involved and are proceeding in a cordial and reasonable manner, and in line with your ethical views.

I am just enough above the clouds to see that this isn�t going to be forever, that time will heal me

Awesome!

Rise from the ashes my friend. You�ve got a good heading in that North Star of your�s.

D

[may22]

hi dear Sage,

No words of wisdom from me... just wanted to say that you're doing so, so well. You sound healthy and clear-eyed and STRONG. You've got this, my dear.

xx May

[Gerda]

Sage (and May22!), I always think of you and wish I knew you IRL. You are doing amazingly. Look how fast you came to see clearly, compared to poor little Gerda, walking barefoot in the snow. But we are both always looking up, shouting with joyful hope, Look up! like you ice skating with your darlings....

[bttrfly]

I can proudly say I am firmly detached and really ready for the D process to begin in earnest and conclude sometime this year. The further out from my marriage I get, the more I see how much imbalance existed in it and how I have spent the past 10 years merely surviving instead of thriving.

^^^ this. YES. I so relate!

I don�t want to get into details, but H is not the person I thought he was, in any sense of the word. I know that D can bring out the worst in people, so I am allowing some wiggle room there, but there are some deep personality traits that I now see I unconsciously enabled and compensated for in our R.

^^^ again, this. I could have written this myself. The thing is, I thought that love would heal him. I thought that love was more powerful than the damage wrought by his parents. Boy, was I wrong. Or maybe love will heal him, but years and years and years from now. What I've learned is that love will heal me and that's far more important. I suspect you're learning that too!

I am a strong, independent woman who always trusted my intuition and felt assured of my decision-making capacity (and my ability to pivot should I make a poor decision). I felt healthy, strong and mentally balanced. I felt like I had internal resources in excess and as such, when H came flying at me with all his accusations about my character, my conduct during our M and my reaction to his blindsiding ILYBNILWY, I listened and internalized them much, much more than I ever should have. He played on my strengths and used them as fuel as to why he had to leave 15 years of misery. I trusted him and allowed him to tear apart everything that made me, me. All the sides of me that I valued, that other people in my life valued, that honestly was what attracted him to me in the first place, became a burned-out village, smoldering in spots and no longer recognizable.

whoa boy, can I get an "Amen"!

I did this. I allowed this to happen. My eagerness to grow and change, my desire to save my M, and my curious nature, coupled with the codependent dynamics that have existed in our M allowed this to happen. And as I am rebuilding that village, I am able to see where the weaknesses existed, some of the huts were dry tinder begging for a spark. And now I get to rebuild it all of bricks and stone if I wish. Or not. But it�s mine and it�s me and I get to decide what rises from the ashes.

The deep irony in all of this is that I have daughters who are so much like me. Strong, independent, self-assured, but also open, loving, caring and community-minded. If I let H continue to tear down those essences of me, I am allowing him to vicariously do the same for my daughters. Not on my watch. And I will lead them by example. You too, dear daughters can be strong and capable. Don�t ever apologize for that; it is celebrated in men. And you can also be kind and loving and empathetic. You can hold it all, and you will.

I am so very glad you see this. I remember in the last few years of my marriage worrying about what messages were we giving our son - of how a man treats a woman or regards women generally, of how a woman treats a man or allows herself to be treated by a man. You are giving your girls the best example of womanhood, Sage. Brava!

I am still in the midst of some hard stuff. Triggers occur daily. I am traumatized on a lot of levels. But I am just enough above the clouds to see that this isn�t going to be forever, that time will heal me, H and the children. That H and I will likely come out the other side in a few years and be able to communicate normally, put our children first and both lead successful lives. That�s my north star anyway.

Thanks for reading, I adore you all.

Xx
S

And Sage, even if you aren't able to communicate with him normally, that will be ok too. It was never about him anyway - it's about you, and where you go from here. Stay true to yourself, your values, your core and you will thrive!

[Elbereth]

Wow Sage, you sound so well and strong! Reading your post, I have some of the same feelings about my H and my marriage. Parts like this:

I don�t want to get into details, but H is not the person I thought he was, in any sense of the word. I know that D can bring out the worst in people, so I am allowing some wiggle room there, but there are some deep personality traits that I now see I unconsciously enabled and compensated for in our R. The freedom and sense of peace and happiness I now feel, nearly a year out from separation, as well as the complete absence of some mystery health issues I faced for years is enough to tell me that this is truly the right path for me and my future. All of this notwithstanding, I have had recent bouts of questioning my sanity and culpability, to an unhealthy extreme at times.

It's a hard thing to admit when we realize that we, consciously or unconsciously, enabled or compensated for the personality traits that turned out to be toxic with our spouses. And to identify the impact on our health and well being, and know that we allowed it to happen to us, even if we didn't realize it. Kudos to you for putting yourself first, for being graceful in the way you are moving towards your future but with your needs first in mind. And for recognizing the path you are showing your daughters. Stay true to yourself, continue to walk with grace and the future is yours.

Triggers, feelings, and sadness are all part of the process. Know that we are here walking this journey with you, sharing in your struggles and cheering you on! Stay strong! So happy to see your change and growth! You inspire me more than you will ever know!

El

[Sage4]

Hi friends, thank you for the long-ago replies, it meant a lot to me even if I wasn't able to respond.

Today was a hard day. My kids went to their Dad’s for the first time in 2 weeks and their absence has hit me really hard. Last night we walked to the beach. It was an oddly humid and warm evening for this time of year and one child suggested we take a walk to the beach and another suggested we wear swim suits. We all grabbed a towel and headed down the road. It was one of those puppy-pile walks, hands and arms entwined. Laughter, smiles, discussion of the school day, a perfect sherbet setting sun. So. Much. Love. We walked to a log that was washed up in a storm last winter and at full tide the end of the log reaches to a deep part of the water. We have been meaning to jump off this log all summer. Last night was the night. We teetered out, all five of us, and then a neighbor and her kids driving by stopped to cheer us on as we dove into the icy water over and over. It was magical.

An older friend of mine emailed this morning to say that she lost her husband last week. And a young family in my community is in the process of losing their father/husband to cancer. This family is from India and the mother has no idea what she is going to do when her husband passes; her kids only know life in the US but she has no family here and has never worked.

The word ‘robbed’ has been floating in my brain all morning… I feel robbed of part of my children’s daily life, my friend was robbed of growing old with her beloved, and this sweet, kind, generous family is being robbed of their father and the only life they have ever known.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not one to dwell in too much victimhood, so the word ‘robbed’ isn’t in my daily repertoire, but in this moment I am so deeply feeling the suffering of others and by extension, my own suffering. I just need to cry on shoulders that know, so here you are.

---

In other worlds, H and I are back working through our collaborative divorce after a summer’s hiatus (due to scheduling). Somewhere over the summer, I had a realization that the only way I am going to get what I need in 2, 5, 10 years is to petition for it now, hard. I have been exploring the ‘mental load’ that I have taken on in our M and reflecting on how much I really want to inherit post-D. Or how much I actually CAN inherit and still achieve my own professional and personal goals, which are ambitious but not unattainable, if I have the right financial and child-raising support. So I started writing lists of all the things I do in a day/month/year with regards to child rearing. And separating out what is personal (ie housekeeping/house holding) and what is obligatory child maintenance (dr’s appts, school supplies and paperwork, sports-related, etc). So that we can address and split those duties equitably between us. H is a capable human, a good (enough) father and there is no reason why he can't take on half of this responsibility.

But I am finding that the default in the divorce process is to silently let the mental load fall on the mother's shoulders. I am having to think on my feet, project years ahead of my current situation and advocate for myself. Why are there no guides or books for this sort of thing? Gerda, want to co-author something with me?

All this work I am doing advocating for myself, the financial 'right-sizing' and shifts in the mundane parental obligations still do not fill the empty hole of sadness I have of being left for another woman, of not being 'good enough' as a wife or partner, or that somehow for some reason I deserve to be a single mom to four kids who were created with love and intention.

I am working through all of these feelings slowly in trauma-informed therapy. My new IC specializes in narcissistic abuse and is absolutely amazing, but there are moments when I still succumb to the sting of being a LBS.

I hope to be more active on here. I, like some of the other posters on here with similarly disordered spouses, am concerned about my privacy due to some nefarious activity on my ex's part, but at this point, the support and conversation means more to me than the fear of being 'discovered' telling the truth about the end of my M.

With love, empathy and the strength to endure it all,
S

[DnJ]

Hello Sage

Oh how I miss those puppy-pile walks and hugs and such.

I so love your story of all five of you diving off the log and into the cold water.

Then another curve ball. Your friend’s husband and a young family’s father/husband.

Events happen which stir inside us. Robbed is a normal feeling that surfaces for all of us. Robbed is the epitome of loss. We feel robbed, powerless, helpless. Anger, depression, all that grief we struggle through until we realize and accept.

You are among those that understand. And you are welcome to cry upon my shoulder, virtual as it may be. (((Hugs)))

H is a capable human, a good (enough) father and there is no reason why he can't take on half of this responsibility.

A very healthy attitude my dear. Good for you.

All this work I am doing advocating for myself, the financial 'right-sizing' and shifts in the mundane parental obligations still do not fill the empty hole of sadness I have of being left for another woman, of not being 'good enough' as a wife or partner, or that somehow for some reason I deserve to be a single mom to four kids who were created with love and intention.

I too have had that emptiness and sadness of being left for another. The doubts, the questions of why, the wondering if I was not good enough. You know well enough H’s journey and choices are about him not you.

My four children, like your’s, were created will love and intention. Years and years of happy family life.

Did I deserve to be a single Dad? Well of course not. No more than you or anyone deserved the fallout from their spouse’s behaviour.

Yet….

And bear with me for a bit.

I became a Dad who did deserve it. A much better word would be - a Dad who earned it.

A single parent is nothing short of miraculous. The loving relationship between single Dad or Mom and their kid(s) is so very strong. The shared bond has a touch of the divine after experiencing such upheaval. Be a strong stable forgiving parent amidst all the wreckage of your marriage, for we only lost our spouse not our family.

Sage, I’d never wish this journey upon anyone. And yet, it is such a blessed opportunity. Become the Mom who deserves such a blessing.

And by the way, I believe you already are, you just don’t realize it. And that is the big step of grief. Realizing and accepting. Through loss we gain. Maybe even more than we lost. Gosh, what a counterintuitive journey huh?

I hope to be more active on here. I, like some of the other posters on here with similarly disordered spouses, am concerned about my privacy due to some nefarious activity on my ex's part, but at this point, the support and conversation means more to me than the fear of being 'discovered' telling the truth about the end of my M.

Good for you my friend. Let go your fear and share whenever and whatever you are comfortable with.

In time this all becomes as easy as jumping off a log.

(((Sage)))

D

[bttrfly]

{{{{{{{Sage}}}}}}}
When my son went with his father it was like walking around with my heart outside of my body until he returned home. What got me through was starting to volunteer at a place that means a great deal to me. I would leave before my son was picked up and spend that first day doing something else for someone else. It got me out of myself and saved my sanity. Sure, I returned home to an empty apartment, but I was usually exhausted, because there was a physical labor component to the work, exhilarated, especially if I got some one on one time with the animals, and most importantly, my mind and heart had a little bit of peace. The next day or two weren't easy, but usually by Wednesday (Sunday was the day he would go with his dad) I was starting to explore what I wanted to do with my alone time.

I would schedule things for the weeks I didn't have my son. It actually wasn't bad once I got used to it.

All that said, yes. I felt robbed. But, despite being left, despite my view on how good (or lacking) he was as a dad, my son still needed to spend time with his father. That's what got me through. If any of that resonates with you, then I'm glad I took the time to re-live it.

xoxoxo

[97Hope]

((((Sage))))

It's so good to hear from you here. I am so sorry for the ache in your heart. It will get better, you know that in your head, your heart will catch up to it.

I can't really add to what D and bttrfly said, except to say that you are strong. You have courage to embrace what's best for your kids (spending time with their father). You won't allow them to suffer for your own happiness.

I asked a dear friend of mine, what I was supposed to do now that I have this life I didn't ask for and didn't really want, and he said "EMBRACE IT".

I did NOT want to! I, too, felt robbed. Because I was. They took from us. So we acknowledge the losses and over time, embrace our new lives.

The alternative is to stay stuck and you are too brave and wonderful to do that.

Take whatever time you need to grieve the loss. Go through the process. Like on Finding Nemo, I picture the rocks as grief. Through it not over it.

Those beautiful people you created will remember the puppy pile memories and your strength. You are the rock. Stay strong.

[Gerda]

Gerda, want to co-author something with me?

Yes. Seriously. We should.

But you have never left me a crumb. I have been thinking about doing it on youtube actually. I already have started a channel on some other things I do -- not that I have more than like three followers but I think if I worked on it for real I could make it something great. And I think I could help a lot of women, you too. If you are serious, let's explore.

I am having a similar time of grief about the horrors of this world. And there have been huge developments in my nightmare, all of them worse than the ones before, but I haven't had time/energy to write them here. I have been on a sort of silent retreat, just grieving and praying. Plus all the developments which I will talk about at some point on my thread.

All we can do is walk in light.

Which you did. This log leaping in the glorious dusk is the summer version of ice skating -- looking ahead to where you want to go, my lovelies! You sound like a magical mother truly. You are doing it, you are creating the light for your kids, you are the anchor, they will always look back at how you walked through this horror with grace and love. Think about a mother in Afghanistan right now, or Syria or anywhere going through some version of H$ll. Would we ever doubt her beauty and love as a mother just because the world she is living in is horrific? Love is our only purpose, I think we can't look for a different reality to enact that. You aren't, but you are feeling paralyzed, and robbed. You were robbed, but you also weren't. You may have been chosen for these kids because you are the mom who would link arms in the twilight and leap off a log into the freezing water and tuck them in cozy afterwards. There are moms who would be bitter and rageful and passed out on the couch from various prescribed psychotropics. That's what I grew up with.

It's good that you figured all this out about what you want/need/project.

But I think it's better to cut and run. Get what you can quickly. Once you are free you'll be able to do so much more than you can now. I doubt your H will be eager to help you achieve your dreams. That's why he left, cause he's not. He doesn't care about your dreams. Nor mine. Mine wants me dead, I think. Gives me not a penny. And yet I have made tiny inroads into achieving dreams that I put aside for so long. Get a deal quickly, and then you'll have the freedom to get to work on those dreams.

Crumb me!

[Sage4]

Gerda, you and DnJ and Hope and May (whom I know offline) have been such solice to me this past week. Thank you for the support and encouragement and love.

I have a lot to update, but not the mental energy to do so. But the one thought that I woke up to the other morning was a sense of loneliness. Specifically from physical intimacy (not necessarily sex, though that would be nice). I realized that the past 19 months have been the longest I have ever gone since the age of 13 where I didn't hold a boy (or man's) hand, or kiss someone or cuddle or engage in pillow-talk. Maybe it is a reclaiming of my post-breakup womanhood (though I was hardly a woman when I held my first crushes' hand on the back of that 4-wheeler in Alaska at 13). I have had a lot of dry periods in my life, where the need for self-actualization was more urgent than the need for intimacy, but even during those eras, I still flirted or felt I had opportunities and was making a conscious choice to abstain.

I am not interested in online dating. I have been on a blind date or two set up by loving friends, which I can internally justify as 'making new friends' or 'potential business investor' so not really the same thing, and didn't lead to much, likely from my end.

I am not sure if I am looking for answers or solidarity or just sharing my current state of mind. I would love to kiss someone, or hold someone's hand or cuddle. I have been advised that my D will likely take a long time to be final, so I am not sure that is a benchmark that makes sense for me to wait for at this point. I thought I would be so pure and so true and not do a thing until years after the D, but I am feeling so alive at the moment. All the self-work I have been doing the past 2 years, all the child-first parenting I have been doing, has paid dividends and now that most accounts are (nearly) full, I am yearning for more.

I am so curious how all you wise-ones have navigated these feelings.

In curiosity,
Sage

[paco123]

Not a wise one here, but your comments resonated, so let me essay a response.

I think there is loneliness and then there is LONELINESS. The former is as you describe: the need for a touch of the hand; the brush of the cheek; the head on another’s shoulder. The latter is the human condition: to want to be known and loved--fully and unconditionally--by another soul, only to realize that sort of love can only truly be filled by someone (or something) transcendent.

Only a few weeks ago, I left a relationship that filled the former need, because I realized I was seeking to quench the latter. I told the woman that she was special and amazing, and that she deserved someone who could give of himself totally. And, given how I continue to feel about my XW, that someone was not me.

Difficult though that was, it confirmed my desire to continue standing and, for now, to avoid romantic relationships. Whatever journey my XW is on, I do feel that I need to be there if and when she should ever leave the tunnel. I know quite intimately her history and her family of origin’s dynamics. I believe she is trying to deal with LONELINESS through other means--like all of us. It is, as I say, the human, existential condition.

And if she never leaves the tunnel, I trust my future self to deal with that if that time comes.

[DnJ]

Good Morning Sage

I do understand your feelings. It’s been a long time since I held anyone’s hand. XW and I walked everywhere hand in hand. Four years with no hugs, cuddles, hand holding, kisses, pillow talk, sex, waking up to someone beside you, etc.

They are feelings. They will flit - unless reinforced.

I thought I would be so pure and so true and not do a thing until years after the D, but I am feeling so alive at the moment.

Glad you are feeling alive. It does take time to heal, to find ourselves again.

We all face crossroads during our journey. Decisions and choices along our path.

Standing is the default position while we heal. Standing really starts when one is healed enough to stand down. However, that needs to become standing for you. Not M. Not H. You!

Standing or living your convictions or believing in your vows - all is standing for you.

By the way, you can be completely alive AND be single.

It’s alone, not lonely. There is a difference.

I have been advised that my D will likely take a long time to be final, so I am not sure that is a benchmark that makes sense for me to wait for at this point.

Such are the crossroads we face.

You never believed in dating outside your marriage before. Why start now?

Decisions based upon feelings often lead to regret. Follow your beliefs and convictions, for they are slow to change and make excellent headings for life.

You face your crisis of faith, a crisis of your soul/beliefs/values. This is the testing of your beliefs. How strong are they? Do they crumble?

I faced similar. You know the path I walked. My accounts are full up. I live in the light. And my yearnings and zest for life is alive and well.

I am happy to walk beside you my friend. You are not alone.

I can discuss further later, for now I am off to work.

D

[AndrewP]

Hi Sage - I don't know if I've ever posted to you or not.

Your feelings of loneliness are familiar though. I'm a bit over 5 years out, completely divorced and living alone with my cat in what was the marital home. I have zero contact with my XW and haven't had any meaningful contact with her since I think Dec 2016.

I did date a couple of women and it got serious quite fast but didn't last for a variety of reasons that don't matter on this thread. Like DnJ, we were that "cute couple" who still held hands everywhere they went even as our hair turned to grey.

Initially the absence of my XW (which I'm saying differently from loneliness) was a painful experience. The everyday things that were shared no longer were. Like someone wrote to me a long time ago, it's as if a part of yourself is torn out leaving a gaping hole. In time, that hole that that person occupied did fill in for me as I grew into just being "AndrewP" and not part of a couple.

There are still bad days when I want to reach out to the empty spot on the other side of the bed, turn to that empty passenger seat in the car, listen to someone talk about how their day went, make them a cup of coffee. I don't have that.

After the last bad experience, I did learn that it was better to be alone than with someone who was not good for me and at this point am not looking. I honestly don't know if I will again. I have good friends who I don't see often enough, a career that keeps me occupied mentally (far too much most days it seems), and my cat who would prefer if I didn't work so much. But it's not the same I know as that "someone" who you and I no longer have.

I'm not familiar with your story but from DnJ's comment it would appear that you are "standing" and holding space for your former partner. My own opinion is that dating someone else isn't fair to either yourself or that person if your preference is for someone else, whether that's a realistic hope or not.

It is only after that door is firmly closed and the light in the window that was left on for them turned off that I would suggest looking for another "someone". There are a lot of damaged people out there though and finding the "right" someone FOR YOU requires patience and resilience.

In the meantime, the loneliness is there. Many of us understand what you are feeling. Accept that it exists but also know that it is your choice alone on how you deal with that. For me, what I do is like when I felt the anger is to accept the emotion, absorb it and then let it go. Distractions can help but I like to face things head-on and deal with them.

((Sage))

[kml]

I personally have a different opinion, Sage.

The reasons not to date are clear - if you would take your ex back if they showed up crawling on their knees and begging your forgiveness, you should not date - as that would be very unfair to anyone you might date.

On the other hand - if you are sure you are DONE, and would not have your ex back under any circumstances, and have worked through your own issues around the breakup of your marriage - then I don't think it's necessary to wait on that piece of paper.

Most people here are still too new to the trauma when their divorce occurs. But for myself, my ex had an affair 8-10 years before our divorce. I DB'd like mad, we reconciled, we had several excellent years, but as he approached 50 his MLC began. He'd had a couple of concussions (on top of several previouso nes) when he first asked me for a divorce, so I thought it was the concussion speaking. I still fought for my marriage, but when he finally filed papers 6 months later, I was DONE. I knew I had done everything possible to save my marriage, and I also knew that I could never trust him again so I would never reconcile again (third strike thing). Once I let go I did start dating, a long distance thing (which worked for me at the time because I was still going through the divorce process and one weekend every couple of months worked into my schedule just fine. And I've never regretted that relationship - although he wasn't marriage material, and after a year his old high school girlfriend showed up and whisked him away (I could hardly blame him for that, those ties were deep and took him back to a happier time in his life).

He and I have stayed true friends ever since and honestly, my relationship with him was healing in so many ways. He showed me some of what I had been missing in my ex. He was a good and generous father to his kids in ways my ex will never be, he was accepting and intellectually curious. (And the sex was great!)

BTW - he and I met through online dating. It's not quite the same as blind dating as you can get some sense of the person before you meet (although some people are better at this than others - I've had good luck, my friend cannot at all predict who she might like from their profile.) That being said, if you work in an occupation with dateable men, or are involved in group activities where you might meet someone organically, good on you. But for me, as a woman in her early 50's- early 60's when dating, I only met ONE man organically (he picked me up in Big Lots lol) - and although he was terribly handsome and sexy, he was probably the least good match on other counts. It's simply not that easy to casually meet people once you're out of your twenties. Yes, you have to weed through a lot of people online to find one appropriate match, but it's a lot easier and quicker to do that weeding. I can't meet 100 people at parties easily but I can weed through 100 candidates online. I also can learn more about them initially than I might learn casually chatting with someone at a party. So don't completely discount online dating - it IS where most people are meeting their dates these days.

[Traveler]

The reasons not to date are clear - if you would take your ex back if they showed up crawling on their knees and begging your forgiveness, you should not date - as that would be very unfair to anyone you might date.

On the other hand - if you are sure you are DONE, and would not have your ex back under any circumstances, and have worked through your own issues around the breakup of your marriage - then I don't think it's necessary to wait on that piece of paper.

I like kml's breakdown. Once I slept with someone within 2-3 months after BD and lo and behold we R'd and that definitely added challenges. It also was unfair to the person I slept with that I was thinking about my ex just before and just after. This time I waited 6 months before even my first date, and when we slept together, my ex wasn't anywhere near my thoughts. Some (many) would say I'm not in an ideal place to date, but at least I'm no longer eager for R, my XGF was rarely on my thoughts, and I had found a rewarding life solo. I am glad you feel you reclaimed your womanhood and self-actualization!

[DnJ]

Hello Sage

Gosh, what a work day.

I am so curious how all you wise-ones have navigated these feelings.

Realize these are feelings. They are not permanent. Not forever. And will most definitely change.

Once you realize that, it become rather obvious to not make any life altering decisions based upon them. You then work through the feelings. Perhaps it will help to know there is something beyond the desire and current yearnings.

Still, feelings are real and valid. They harken to what is within our subconscious self. And that take some time to discover and sort out.

How did I navigate these feelings?

It started with realizing I am alone not lonely.

I then proceeded on to the inner work. I had a W sized hole left in my soul after BD. As I grew and healed and the pieces got put back together, the hole disappeared. It is not ignored, or filled in, or covered over. It is, for lack of anything better - accepted. Forgiveness has many benefits, and promoting healing is one of them.

An other conscious strategy was not to date. To not give in to my feelings. To follow my beliefs and values. You’d be surprised at how many people do not agree with my views regarding vows. Or maybe you’d not be surprised. At any rate, if I could easily dismiss my vow, what does my word mean?

For me, breaking a vow is a big thing. If one can just break that, what chance does their lesser promises have. For better or worse. Till death do us part. We all said something along those lines. Mine didn’t have any exit clause or loop hole. I meant it.

One of my most rigorous views and realizations is that we humans have an incredible, almost infinite capacity for justification. We can justify any position or belief we want to. Consider: I was too young when we were married. I didn’t leave or cause this divorce. I never meant for any of this to happen. I’m too young to be single. We are separated. I am going to divorce. Divorce is just a piece of paper. And so on. It pretty easy to find one’s way to believe things.

My views are more factual based. I never thought it correct for one to date someone else while married. I’ve upheld that viewpoint (and many others) in my personal life. And have had many critics. Seems I’m rather old fashion when it comes to morals and loyalty and my solemn word. Lol.

Anyhow, I’m ok with the criticism. When everyone is running off a cliff, the one guy running the other way appears wrong.

I’m not telling you what you should do. I’m just probing your beliefs so you make well informed decisions and choices. We all live with the benefits and consequences of our choices.

And that is another way I navigated my feelings. Realizing my choices.

Dating does get talked about quite a bit. I’ve read plenty of folk’s threads and journeys regarding their exploits. If I may offer something.

Do not date to fill some void. That does not work. Void, loneliness, unhappiness, sadness, bitterness, etc all come from within. External will not alleviate that.

Also fulfillment, contentment, joy, happiness, forgiveness, etc all come from within. External will not create that.

Most of us have a list or realization of traits that we are looking for. And ones we will turn down. Red flags and other issues that highlight being incompatible. Folks are busy looking for someone rather than being someone. Become the person you desire. Be that person and exhibit those traits you hold dear. There is far less looking for someone to fill a void when you have filled it. Yet another navigation tool I found useful traversing these new waters.

This is not a matter of right or wrong. Moral or immoral. As you well know there are many different views out there. It is a matter of what do you want. What do you value. What do you and how do you want to live. What do you stand for. Or want to stand for.

For me I’ve listened to the feedback of my life. What we put out to the universe comes back many fold over. I am single, happy, and content. My kids love and respect me. I do live a pretty great life.

Live in the light and the light will live and shine within you.

D

[Traveler]

DnJ, if I may ask--and as a starting point I'm not dating because I feel lonely or to fill avoid--when you say the following:

Once you realize that, it become rather obvious to not make any life altering decisions based upon them. You then work through the feelings. Perhaps it will help to know there is something beyond the desire and current yearnings.

Still, feelings are real and valid. They harken to what is within our subconscious self. And that take some time to discover and sort out.

How did you get good at processing feelings? I have the first step down of realizing feelings are often fleeting. If I feel frustrated with someone I often wait until the next day. Still, in the morning it takes 30-60min to process what's eating at me, why, and how important it is. I go from "Why didn't you do X or Y?? (accusatory)" to "After A (good) and B (good), I felt C about no X." Of course, the later communication yields more productive responses. Some people seem so adept at processing their emotions. I don't imagine them stopping to reflect for 30min. At least while I'm still processing, I validate instead of emoting.

[Sage4]

D, thank you for the thoughtful, inspiring posts.

We share many similar worldviews. And your concept of 'feelings are fleeting' has been a guiding light to me in this process. I deeply respect your decision to stand for yourself and your vows and how that defines who you are a person in this world.

H is an atheist (think Christopher Hitchens) and I am spiritual, but not religious. Our vows reflected this and eliminated wording about man and wife and death do us part and forever and ever, amen (and obviously we weren't married in a church; H would have walked away if God were asked to be a witness, etc). Our vows reflected us at the time: love, honor, respect, openly resolving our differences and allowing and accepting each other as we are, encouraging growth and supporting our differences. I guess when I really read our vows, I can honor them with or without him as my H, whether I have a new partner in my life or not. And not in the funny-business way of finding a loophole, but in the truest sense of how we wrote and intended those vow to represent us. I am still living and honoring my vows, and always will.

The 'filling a hole' has been something I have been acutely aware of since this whole process started. That I could never re-partner until the H-sized hole in my life was filled back in with only me. And I honestly thought that would never really happen; my love for him was so big, the hole so gaping. But inch by inch that hole has filled. It will never be flush, thank goodness, because what would be the point of life if not to continually grow? But that hole isn't a vortex, nor do I really notice it much anymore. It's just me, being me these days.

I am no longer standing for H or my M. I am standing purely for me.

Another area that I have spent a long time considering is whether it is fair to introduce someone into my life at this stage. The baggage (no matter how light it may or may not be) of the impending, molasses-moving D isn't really fair to hoist on to another person. But then again, who am I to 'save' another person? My caretaking days are slowly receding. (And by caretaking, I mean in the disordered sense, where I feel it is my responsibility to minister for, cater to and protect/save people from their poor decisions or behavior, even if that poor decision is choosing me.) What if a man falls madly in love with me, and me him, tomorrow? (work with me here) Do I choose to deny my love and deflect his, only because I have too much baggage? Hmmm... I am going to leave this open-ended because I don't know how I feel about all of this and welcome thoughts.

And then the largest conundrum for me is the likelihood that my next R will be a rebound R. Oh, heavens, how terrible for this next person! Who should have to sign up for that?

This is all a long-winded way of defining my current state: I am not sure I am seeking, but I am not sure I would turn down a potential love interest.

Paco, you are so wise. I loved your definition of loneliness vs LONELINESS. I think I would politely decline the former and potentially welcome the latter should it land in my lap. I guess that's the best definition of where I am at the moment.

Big hugs to all, thanks for your vulnerable, beautiful replies.

xx
S

[DnJ]

Good Morning Sage

Awesome post!

That hole within yourself is no longer a vortex and is barely noticed.

Standing purely for yourself.

Well said Sage.

Our vows reflected us at the time: love, honor, respect, openly resolving our differences and allowing and accepting each other as we are, encouraging growth and supporting our differences. I guess when I really read our vows, I can honor them with or without him as my H, whether I have a new partner in my life or not. And not in the funny-business way of finding a loophole, but in the truest sense of how we wrote and intended those vow to represent us. I am still living and honoring my vows, and always will.

Thank you for sharing this.

My mentioning of loophole is me. Not in the funny-business way, a serious resolution to that dilemma. I’ve listened, discussed, and read many views and reasons for various paths. Your vows and their intent is helpful to me and I know I will mull it over for some time.

I am considering if I want to alter my belief regarding my vows. I realize it’s “my” belief and “my” vow. I’ve expended and invested considerable energy and time into this issue and still hold too my views. I can see many sides to this matter and still I remain planted. Suppose I’m not ready I guess.

Do I choose to deny my love and deflect his, only because I have too much baggage?

Yes. If, and ‘work with me here’, IF you have too much baggage do not bring someone into that. Fix. Let go the baggage first.

That is a mostly theoretical answer. One in which you actually gave the answer in the question. If I have “too much” baggage. Of course, it’s too much. The underlining question is - Do I have too much baggage?

Perhaps that is the next step you are looking towards. Addressing whatever baggage you’re dragging about.

For me, finding acceptance and forgiveness removes a lot of emotional baggage. And if I may, I do not believe you are overstocked with too much luggage. You’ve got a good head on your shoulders, a wise mind, and a good heart.

D

[DnJ]

CW, I’ve posted a response to your query on my thread, I not wish to hijack Sage’s.

[Eagle3]

I have a lot to update, but not the mental energy to do so. But the one thought that I woke up to the other morning was a sense of loneliness. Specifically from physical intimacy (not necessarily sex, though that would be nice). I realized that the past 19 months have been the longest I have ever gone since the age of 13 where I didn't hold a boy (or man's) hand, or kiss someone or cuddle or engage in pillow-talk. Maybe it is a reclaiming of my post-breakup womanhood (though I was hardly a woman when I held my first crushes' hand on the back of that 4-wheeler in Alaska at 13). I have had a lot of dry periods in my life, where the need for self-actualization was more urgent than the need for intimacy, but even during those eras, I still flirted or felt I had opportunities and was making a conscious choice to abstain.
I am not interested in online dating. I have been on a blind date or two set up by loving friends, which I can internally justify as 'making new friends' or 'potential business investor' so not really the same thing, and didn't lead to much, likely from my end.
I am not sure if I am looking for answers or solidarity or just sharing my current state of mind. I would love to kiss someone, or hold someone's hand or cuddle. I have been advised that my D will likely take a long time to be final, so I am not sure that is a benchmark that makes sense for me to wait for at this point. I thought I would be so pure and so true and not do a thing until years after the D, but I am feeling so alive at the moment. All the self-work I have been doing the past 2 years, all the child-first parenting I have been doing, has paid dividends and now that most accounts are (nearly) full, I am yearning for more.
I am so curious how all you wise-ones have navigated these feelings. Sage

Hi Sage,
I wanted to give my interpretation when these feelings started to take the upper hand for a while.
I am also a very physical person. Holding each other just before bedtime, kissing, lying close together on the couch, sex, etc.. The feeling that someone can give you with these gestures is incredibly rewarding and that is why it is so missed.

Realize these are feelings. They are not permanent. Not forever. And will most definitely change.Do not date to fill some void. That does not work. Void, loneliness, unhappiness, sadness, bitterness, etc all come from within. External will not alleviate that. Also fulfillment, contentment, joy, happiness, forgiveness, etc all come from within. External will not create that.D

If you read my thread you will see that a few months ago I had a huge desire to simply feeling loved by a partner, I too I have never been alone in my life since I was 15 years old. Exactly at that moment I also got some sincere attention from an attractive man.
I then asked for advice, to see how everyone on the forum dealt with it.
D explained very well to me just as he has here, and also to CW on his own thread today, the principle of feelings fleeting and how you can learn to control them.
I won’t say I’m there yet but I try to apply this, or at the least try to follow the advice D explained to me back then (although I have to read it sometimes over and over as it is definitely not always the easiest way ) But he sure was right about one thing. The feeling I had of dating someone else faded fairly quickly again.
I realized I considered doing this, but for the wrong reasons, for me it was actually to fill that void.
I'm happy I didn't go through with this.
Your situation is, in my intuition, more advanced. If that void is no longer present, and you no longer stand for your marriage or your H, it means you've closed the door behind you and want to move on, why not let someone new into your life when the opportunity arises.
In any case, I wish you a lot of success. You seem to be a very strong woman.
xxx

[Sage4]

Hi friends,

A long overdue update that isn't really a departure from the norm for me. H and I are still in divorce proceedings and it is going very slow. I am fairly confident that we will get something worked out by the end of the year, or early next year but I am not entirely sure. I am just keeping calm about it all and letting the L's do their work and trusting the process with an eye on my own interests.

H's initial expectation that he was leaving me so he could 'just be happy himself and raise his kids, happily' seems to not be going according to plan. He is absolutely miserable in a way I have never seen him before and of course it is all completely my fault. I believe he has depression at best and possibly a mood or character disorder at worst. We have a theoretical 50/50 custody split, but the actual is closer to 90/10. He has taken some personal trips during his custody time and also is back to traveling for work so it means that I have the kids the majority of the time. When H is away, I experience relative silence from him and it is blissful. But when he is in town (often it starts with emails on the airplane when he is heading home) I have to brace myself for every interaction.

H is so h3ll-bent on finding fault with me that he is unwilling to see that I am doing everything 'by the book' with regards to our coparenting agreements. For example, I sent him an email update about a significant appt with one of the children, right after the appt. But later that day he demands an update from me as if I never sent one. He literally cannot 'see' the email that I sent him 6 hours earlier. This is a very literal example, but I experience this sort of dissonance during every interaction. He forgets verbal conversations we have about schedule changes, accuses me of keeping him out of the loop with the children (though I am so careful to keep him abreast at all times) and in general is just super, super difficult and obstructionist. He has absolutely no emotional generosity towards me, accuses me of convincing the children he was the one who left (umm?), and rails and lashes out at me frequently. I am not used to being portrayed in the way he portrays me in his mind and actions, it is just so opposite from my nature that I feel like a deer in headlights every time.

Not only am I doing 100% of the mental load of raising the kids (as well as the emotional load), but I am also raising them alone 90% of the time (and not making him feel bad about that fact at all) AND he still has to make it difficult for me on all those fronts. He fights me on basic admin things I do for the kids, but he is not lifting a finger to do any of them himself.

There is also emotional blackmail happening regularly towards me. I am learning to shrug it off, but the combination of raising the kids with no breaks, doing all the kid-related admin/homework/school/sports events/scheduling/life stuff, trying to start a business, navigating the D, being a good coparent and dealing with his issues is defeating me. I just don't see why he has to make this so hard; it is truly so, so unnecessary. And the thought of dealing with this for the next 12 years makes me cry.


On a happier note, the kids are doing really well. Parent-teacher conferences were all glowing and there was a huge focus on how compassionate, kind, emotionally aware and what pleasures my children are in class and beyond. The children argue at the dinner table about who gets to go next in telling me all about their day (they do something called thorn-rosebud-rose which is where they talk about something tricky in their day, something they are looking forward to and something really wonderful). It can take an hour to leave the table, they are so talkative and expressive. I feel really close to all of them and am deeply curious and accepting of their unique expressions in the world. Despite some anxiety issues (which could be pandemic-related or divorce-related) I think the kids will be OK.

If anyone has any advice, anecdotes or thoughts on how I could better navigate all of this, I would be so appreciative.

xoxo
Sage

[kml]

Awww…I’m sorry he’s spewing. They do that, especially as they’re getting what they “wanted”. Keep communications written like you’re doing. They also develop terrible memories. Having proof of what you told them is good.

Being stuck as the responsible parent is hard - but the rewards are great. Many with true 50:50 custody spend a lot of time missing their kids or worrying about their safety when in custody of their ex; so there are plusses to having them 90% of the time, even though it must be exhausting.

((((Hug)))))

[DnJ]

Good Morning Sage

With all sincerity, you are doing wonderfully!

Kind, compassionate, and emotionally aware kids that stretch out supper to over an hour as they tell you about their day - you have done very well indeed! Your healthy happy kids, that in itself is worth your struggles with H and all his behaviour.

You are well into the awareness of what a golden opportunity this horrible and unwanted situation is. Well enough along to realize you’d not go back to how it was even if you could. You are blessed. (((Hugs)))

I am glad the divorce is proceeding, albeit slowly. Being separated by the end of the year or just in the new year would be a welcomed event. And not. I get it, it’s weird.

H is displaying his confusion and projections pretty clearly. And yes, his imagined fantasy world in which everyone applauded him for his courage for leaving and as he effortlessly raise the kids, is crashing around him as reality settles in. And still he fights it. These tormented folks cannot handle the pressures.

I ended up with 100% custody. There was supposed to be a 50/50 on major things like medical stuff and such, as well as for major purchases like university or grad or other big “family-type” items. Nine of that happened. I looked after and paid for everything. Another blessing, from my point of view.

My kids were/are older and therefore not as tiring I’m sure. Enjoy and celebrate your 90%. Kids are always watching and learning, you are the strong stable role model parent. Plenty of the “raising” is going to be 100% from you. Very good dividends will come from such investment.

He forgets verbal conversations we have about schedule changes, accuses me of keeping him out of the loop with the children (though I am so careful to keep him abreast at all times) and in general is just super, super difficult and obstructionist. He has absolutely no emotional generosity towards me, accuses me of convincing the children he was the one who left (umm?), and rails and lashes out at me frequently.

Yep. H is h3ll bent on his irrational path. He is completely driven and making decision based upon his emotions. And as you have seen many times, H’s emotions are out of control. His torment is clearly demonstrated and seen. He is absolutely miserable.

H cannot handle the pressure. He cannot yet accept or acknowledge certain things. He can only barely admit and acknowledge he is wrong - and only the smallest bit at that. And you, my dear Sage, are in his line of fire. You get blamed and lashed out at and projected upon.

There is also emotional blackmail happening regularly towards me. I am learning to shrug it off, but the combination of raising the kids with no breaks, doing all the kid-related admin/homework/school/sports events/scheduling/life stuff, trying to start a business, navigating the D, being a good coparent and dealing with his issues is defeating me. I just don't see why he has to make this so hard; it is truly so, so unnecessary. And the thought of dealing with this for the next 12 years makes me cry.

H needs to make it so very difficult. For H it is necessary. They will mow down anything and anyone who stands in their way.

It is unnecessary from our rational viewpoint. You are going along with his divorce wishes. He is getting what he wants. His irrational ever changing goal post moving ideas can never be met, for he actually doesn’t know what he wants. All he has is some vague feelings about some sort of happiness just over the next hill; and along with that mostly pain and torment which he is running from. Thing is, that next hill keeps moving. He is running from himself. And one cannot outrun themselves. H really doesn’t know what he wants, because he is following feelings.

Understanding the necessary or inevitable projections and blame from H does not make it ok. Emotional blackmail is still not something you have to put up with. Remember to utilize boundaries in response to his disrespectful or otherwise behaviour that is harmful to your well-being.

If anyone has any advice, anecdotes or thoughts on how I could better navigate all of this, I would be so appreciative.

I love how you stated this. “How I could better navigate…”. You are doing very well and open to being and becoming even better. That’s the perfect outlook in my humble opinion.

Continue doing what your doing. You kids are fine examples of your good values and efforts.

Consider firming up some boundaries. This will be easier once divorced. There is a benefit to rock the boat as little as possible while getting things negotiated and settled. And that “turn the other cheek” attitude will have benefit to you directly in other aspects if your life.

Once divorce, be divorced. Let go. Let H do what he will.

Continue to not demonize nor speak purposefully ill of H. Let his paltry 10% dwindle to zero if that is his heading. Be you. Your kids are watching and know who is who, and who is doing what.

H is, and will always be, their Dad. He won’t be your husband. I found that is a different mindset to come to terms with. Indifference, letting go, and yet still watching over the health and welfare of your kids need not bring about the spectre of 12 years of stress and tears. Boundaries, acceptance, forgiveness, and such, all steps towards that great life.

Have a wonderful day my friend.

D

[Eagle3]

When H is away, I experience relative silence from him and it is blissful. But when he is in town (often it starts with emails on the airplane when he is heading home) I have to brace myself for every interaction.

Hi Sage,

I can only compare with my situation and I had the exact same issues.
H lives abroad since more than 1 year and only returned about a week every 6 weeks. while away sporadically controlling messages, mostly about the kids, once heading home, on the plane, this always increased. And everything is your fault, you keeping him out of the loop,...nothing new here.

Your children are smaller than mine so I can imagine it is really hard to do everything on your own. Definitely when you don't have any help of parents or other relatives. Would be good to try to find a possibility to plan a weekend off in the coming months, and perhaps go somewhere with a friend?

The positive thing however is their unconditional love for you and the fact that you are the one who has always been there for them. Believe me, they will never forget and will show this more and more as they grow older.

Good for you to never have complained or made him feel bad about the fact that you are raising them alone. I'm doing the same, so his fighting and emotional blackmail means nothing, it is because his fantasy world is not at all what he expected and he is mad about it.


Unfortunately this is all part of the process he must go through.

I'm glad to hear the kids are doing well.

I can only add that you are doing really well Sage. I don't think there is a better way to navigate through this unfortunately.
The only advice I would like to give you is to try to plan some me-time for you as well. I know it is not easy but this is very important, even if it's only a weekend away. Time to charge your batteries a bit I guess,

[Gerda]

Sage my darling I have been taking a break from here but sometimes peek in just to see if you or May posted! (Tried to find crumbs but not smart enough.)

I was happy to see you posted but I am ready to kick some MLC arse on your behalf!

My H used this same technique. Once I went dark, he got interested in the kids and used a feigned interest in them to force me to respond to him all the time.

Same abuse, different context.

Don't get confused. Don't get abused.

Not your responsibility to keep him informed about the kids.

Not your responsibility to invite him to stuff or make sure he knows anything.

Would you rely on him for those things, ever? No! You'd call teachers yourself, go to plays and confirmations and prom dress shopping by yourself, etc.

You're already doing so much better than I did. I was outright jealous and wistful reading about the way your kids act with you and each other. You did good and they are amazing, even if they get twisty and hurt over all this during the process.

GO DARK IN ALL CONTEXTS, Sage of the Ice Skating Pond. And stick to business with efficiency. One time I was crying in court and texted a friend of mine who lives in another country and speaks English somewhat brokenly. He answered, "Don't let those dogs make you cry." So I always picture him saying that with his beautiful accent. And now this is my new motto (with apologies to all dogs, including mine!).

My advice --

Stop talking to him about the kids. You don't need to take to someone who is abusing you. Make a Google doc calendar and post there anything you don't MIND him knowing about. Until you have a court order/agreement describing what you have to do, just do what you don't mind doing. The general rule is going to be status quo. Girl, you WANT 90% to be status quo!

Write him a note saying something like, "To make sure you have all the info you need, I created a shared document where we can post anything going on or any cancellations and each of us can just check there each week. Just text me to let me know about last minute changes."

There are also apps for that but I couldn't bear anything that "efficient" myself, efficiency and monsters I do not like as a combo for historical and personal reasons. Plus as we know, they won't follow through, so no point in spending money and time on something they won't use once they realize they can't abuse you through it.

On One Mom's Battle, there is a list of "canned responses." Tape those to your closet door and use them whenever needed. Or tape them to your forehead?

And record EVERYTHING in a documents called, "VISITATION RECORD." Include date and what happened. Things he did in a report-style, no emotion. And anything you did in response. It may be that no one will ever see it but I have used mine (one for each year since 2017!!!!) several times as exhibits in motions and plan to use it if my non-H actually follows through on this trial.

Remember, I still believe in love and standing for your marriage. But marriage is not an idol to worship. Once it becomes clear that your H is a narcissist or an abuser of some kind, you must go dark. You can stand while you are doing that or you can stop standing, but you gotta go dark. If it's temporary, you can reopen your borders when he is a human again.

Come over for coffee now? I want to hear about the new business! I have been doing the same.

[Elbereth]

Sage, I second all that Gerda says above.

However, in our situation we started to use Talking Parents app for communications after it got so bad that we got a restraining order against XW/Bio Mom. This was written into the new parenting agreement so she legally agreed to it, if we dropped the restraining order, which we did. So maybe you can work it into your divorce/parenting agreements as well?

There is a paid and a free version and this app isn't complicated (you can go deep with Family Wizard if you want something more robust for expenses, etc). We used the paid version and she stuck with the free one. Expenses were handled on a google doc, but records of it were posted via TP. What did help with is with the XW knowing that all convos can be used in court and are in a written record. So, she quickly behaved herself and the games ended. As part of the agreement she was to no longer text either of us or email either of us directly (outside of the app) unless it was an emergency. Using Talking Parents to communicate eliminated all the drama pretty quickly.

It allowed us to "go dark" yet still coparent effectively. And every time she played games with expenses, we pulled the lawyers in. Yeah, it was a total waste of money to do that, but standing our ground just a few times made her realize we were done with the games and it was going to cost her money as well to play the games.

Sending hugs to you.

[DnJ]

Merry Christmas Sage

Wishing you the best this holiday season.

D

[Gerda]

Sage, was thinking about you and May et al today. Leaving this message on your threads. I haven't really been posting anymore, for similar reasons to May's, not sure if I will again. But truly miss the glorious chats with you gals and especially with you, you have left me many golden eggs and I often return to them for a dose of solace/light/revelation/faith in goodness. I was planning to hunt for crumbs, and/or hoping you will leave some on my thread for a scribing girl like me. XO to you and hoping that you and your four beautiful skaters are looking up up up.....