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Michka,

Please start a thread of your own so that we can assist/support you.


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The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
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Hi friends, lovely to catch up on all the goings-on of your lives. I hope you all had a lovely Easter weekend!

I am struggling with some feelings and am in need of advice. Since I have last written, not much has changed in my situation: H and I are still trying to negotiate a D settlement on our own and are perhaps somewhat close, but it has been bringing out some trialing interactions. It might be time to bring some outside resources in, but I am still hesitant to do so and can't identify why. Is it because it means we failed? Or am I afraid that it will bring out even more of the monster/hatred? I am usually practical and self-assured in my decision-making but in this instance I am really waffling.

During our last in-person conversation, H said a really horrible, mean thing to me. I haven't been able to let it go, it was really mean, totally unnecessary and really, really hurt me. And it hurt my confidence to continue to try and work this out between us. So I haven't been able to respond to his latest offer. When he asked for a response today, I truthfully told him my feelings (the process felt overwhelming to me, I was scared to offer something in case upon further review I realized it wasn't practical, etc). And I also brought up the hurtful thing he said and how deeply damaging it was to my heart and my confidence. I tried to be open and tried not to blame ('I'm sure you feel the same way towards me as well'). But he responded saying he never said such a thing to me. WTF?? Why would I make that up?? Does he not remember? And why doesn't he remember? Is he OK?

And then H told me to stop emotionally manipulating and labeling him and using things against him (and then went on to do just that to me). I haven't responded yet. I don't know what to say.

This sort of thing has been happening for the past month or so and it is starting to make me feel like I am crazy (or he is? But does that make me a crazy person if I am blaming someone else for being crazy? Or am I just making him crazy? Woah. Sorry, lots of 'crazy' in these parenthesis!).

I try to do something nice, or be amicable/communicative or accommodating and then it gets used against me, whether immediately, or down the road. If I'm cool and distant, I must be plotting something. If I'm kind and considerate, that wasn't my real intention now was it? I really can't win and I know I need to just step out of the game, it's totally rigged, but I just can't seem to shake my nature of wanting to be kind and loving to all. And how do you step out of the game when you have children together and are negotiating a D?

A wise friend told me the other day that in some ways, me being nice is not actually nice to H. He can't see it right now. He can't take it. It is like when we are sleep-training our babies and just want to go in and hold them when they are crying, but knowing that it just prolongs the agony. (Wise friend reads here, so hugs to her xx)

I just so desperately want to authentically be me. Kind, loving, compassionate, considerate of others, accommodating where I can. A good friend. A good person. My R with H is the only inauthentic arena of my life and it is killing me. I don't know how to act. I don't know what to do.

I just wish we didn't have children together so I could step far, far away from this madness. (Never would wish away my children, obviously, just wish I didn't have to coparent with H right now).

Having a down day, thanks for listening.

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Hello Sage

Originally Posted by Sage4
H said a really horrible, mean thing to me. I haven't been able to let it go, it was really mean, totally unnecessary and really, really hurt me. And it hurt my confidence to continue to try and work this out between us. So I haven't been able to respond to his latest offer.

(((Hugs)))

Hurt people, hurt people.

My W condescendingly and so smugly told me I’d never find true love like she did with OM, but she’d tell me all my flaws so I could maybe work on them to maybe find an ok relationship in the future. The list of flaws, she estimated would take a few hours to go over.

That is quite funny - now. At the time, I was destroyed. Confidence shot. Self doubts everywhere and about everything. And yes, it hurt a lot!

H is projecting upon you. He also knows you, how to hurt you, and which buttons to push.

Now the hard part. Pay him no heed. You know you best! His words are just words. Just him projecting his own pains, fears, depression and despair upon you.

You know better! You only feel not.

Originally Posted by Sage4
I am struggling with some feelings and am in need of advice.

Do realize your feelings are real.

Do realize your feelings do not make it is real.

H’s mean comments stir up fears, which are self reinforcing. That makes it difficult to let go.

Originally Posted by Sage4
the process felt overwhelming to me, I was scared to offer something in case upon further review I realized it wasn't practical, etc

A possible future event. Check.
A hurt or pain. Check.
A trigger. Check.
All irrationally tied together is fear.

Your actions of offering triggers the possible future of it being a poor offer and then you’d have to suffer with a bad deal. That coupled with H’s meanness and horrible words keeps the feeling going.

Originally Posted by Sage4
It might be time to bring some outside resources in, but I am still hesitant to do so and can't identify why. Is it because it means we failed? Or am I afraid that it will bring out even more of the monster/hatred? I am usually practical and self-assured in my decision-making but in this instance I am really waffling.

No one want to see more monster or hatred. And all of us dislike feeling we failed. For me, my separation agreement and divorce felt like failure. They are not failures, yet at the time that is how I felt. And feelings are irrational and tie that fear and feeling tightly.

Originally Posted by Sage4
I tried to be open and tried not to blame ('I'm sure you feel the same way towards me as well'). But he responded saying he never said such a thing to me. WTF?? Why would I make that up?? Does he not remember? And why doesn't he remember? Is he OK?

And then H told me to stop emotionally manipulating and labeling him and using things against him (and then went on to do just that to me). I haven't responded yet. I don't know what to say.

This sort of thing has been happening for the past month or so and it is starting to make me feel like I am crazy (or he is? But does that make me a crazy person if I am blaming someone else for being crazy? Or am I just making him crazy? Woah. Sorry, lots of 'crazy' in these parenthesis!).

H ‘s emotions are cranked to 11. He cannot handle anything more. And his empathy chip is broken.

Of course he denied saying it. Firstly, he probably did forget, as he has no empathy right now. He is quite indifferent towards you. Secondly, once being reminded, he would again deny, and lash out. He cannot handle feeling what he said and then projects upon you. Him telling you to stop manipulating and labelling him is an example of that. Thirdly, he uses the very things you said against you. A defence and attack to protect his tormented self. Then it starts the whole process over after he denies/forgets again.

Is he ok? He is in crisis.

What he is doing is a form of gaslighting. Although I tend to believe that MLCers are more unintentionally and far less nefariously practicing that art. Their gaslighting is more a byproduct of their psychosis and emotional pressures than a determined and calculated manipulation. Still, it is crazy-making for us. See the truth of it and be free.

Originally Posted by Sage4
I try to do something nice, or be amicable/communicative or accommodating and then it gets used against me, whether immediately, or down the road. If I'm cool and distant, I must be plotting something. If I'm kind and considerate, that wasn't my real intention now was it? I really can't win and I know I need to just step out of the game, it's totally rigged, but I just can't seem to shake my nature of wanting to be kind and loving to all.

That sounds about right on spot for the MLCer’s script.

They have the attention span of a gnat. And can yet can conjure something you said and twist it against you.

One only wins by not playing.

Originally Posted by Sage4
how do you step out of the game when you have children together and are negotiating a D?

Originally Posted by Sage4
I just so desperately want to authentically be me. Kind, loving, compassionate, considerate of others, accommodating where I can. A good friend. A good person. My R with H is the only inauthentic arena of my life and it is killing me. I don't know how to act. I don't know what to do.

A few suggestions:

Originally Posted by DnJ
Do not get wrapped up in his “truth”, nor his projections or fantasy. Detached understanding

Reaffirm your detachment. You need not get drag around by his outbursts and emotions.

Realize you can step out of the game when you have children together. That realization makes it possible, which is the needed first step.

Uncouple the desperate wanting to be you. To be kind, compassionate, and such. To bring authenticity to the only inauthentic area of your life, your R with H. How? Realize you are you. You already are authentically kind, compassionate, considerate, and such. Realize the authentic R with H. Notice it’s the R with H, not your R with H. Do not take on such responsibility. A relationship takes two, not one. “My R” is not accurate and leads to inauthentic and unachievable expectations; those killing feelings. Be authentic with the relationship with H.

As your wise friend counselled, being nice to H is not actually being nice to H. He cannot see it. He cannot accept it. Compassion has a component of indifference to it. Step back and let H take his path. And his consequences.

Institute boundaries on unacceptable and disrespectful behaviour. How? Set ground rules and goals for discussions. We will be polite and not attack one another. We are here to achieve a fair spilling of assets. If H goes off, you leave.

Consult a lawyer with the agreement you have so far. This will belay those reinforcing emotions by having a professional looking it over. If you wish to continue to progress to an agreement between you and H sans the back and forth of each other’s lawyers, you can still utilize one yourself to confirm you are on the right track. However, I do think a L is a good idea. Especially considering the events of the last month and H’s attacking comments.

Sage, I believe stepping back, seeking some legal counsel, and enforcing boundaries will have you back to your confident, self-assured, decision-making self.

(((Sage)))

D


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Yes you need a lawyer. You can’t negotiate with someone who gaslights you and brings out such fear in you. And trying to be “nice” usually results in the LBS getting ripped off in divorce negotiations.

Let’s do a quick test. Is he offering you:
Half of all assets acquired during the marriage, including half of any pensions or retirement accounts?
Alimony by state formula for half the years if your marriage based on the difference between your incomes (if there is a difference)?
Child support based on the differences between your incomes, by state formula?
Life insurance on his life to cover his child support and alimony obligations if he dies?
Money for you to retrain if you can’t work in the industry you and he worked in?

If he’s not offering you these things you’re probably not getting a fair shake.

Your situation especially is complicated since you worked in the “family business” but he’s the public face and there’s no resale value of the business per se. You really need an attorney’s advice for this. Maybe mediation where you meet with a mediator but have your own outside attorney advising you as well. (That’s what I did).

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((((SAGE)))))))

Decided to continue my Lenten fast for a bit longer but then I saw this and moaned, "HAVE I TAUGHT YOU NOTHING, MY CHILD?"

I jest in tone/condescension but not in the seriousness of wishing you would take my story as a message directly to you.

Your H is not in that body anymore. Don't look for him there.

His eyes can't see you. Don't try to make yourself visible to him.

Cutting him off may be the best thing you can do for him -- or it might not. He's bonkers.

You ARE a woman of grace and love and forgiveness. But that doesn't mean you should stick your hand out through the bars to pet a poisonous snake. Nor does it mean you should stand there while this incarnation of H torches your home and your family and your marriage and your business and say, "I JUST WANT TO BE NICE TO YOU! YOU HURT ME!" as if he will suddenly slap his forehead and say, "Ooooooh, you are right! I should be nice to you! What have I been thinking!" and run for the hose to douse the flames.

He doesn't give a sh%t how he makes you feel. That is why you are in this mess.

He CAN'T give a sh%t about how you feel. He's either in MLC from a deep wound that pre-dated your or he has NPD and you didn't notice before.

That is why you can forgive him. Because he can't have empathy right now, no matter what you say or do. Like a person with no legs being asked to run.

As far as negotiating or not -- I would instead use the metaphor of puppies at play. If they bite too hard, they get pushed out of the playspace. Or nipped by their mom. He just bit you too hard. You tried to settle his divorce (not yours!) in an adult way. It didn't work. He bit you. And isn't even aware he bit you.

What I would do is send him KML's message, saying, "Hey, H. This is the default of a divorce in (your state). (KML list here) If you aren't able to go by this list, we can try to work it out in mediation. Here are two mediators we can try. You can pick one. I'm available April 14 and April 17, anytime."

Keep records of all your efforts to settle amicably. You'll need it if he keeps spinning out and tries to get legal fees from you because you delayed.

What's that you say? You didn't delay?

Yeah, me neither. I was just in court to defend myself against my H's fifth motion for contempt. He yelled at me the whole time and had to be repeatedly told to stop. Afterwards, he picked up my D from school and told her, "The court doesn't like Mama at all. If she doesn't stop yelling, they are going to put her in jail."

And in his papers his L sang the same song he always sings, that I am delaying these proceedings and should cover all his legal fees even though I clearly can't even afford my own lawyer and have a packet of maybe two dozen settlement offers I sent in the past two years.

Just telling you that so you can see where your H is going to go with this, if you try to negotiate. Just stick to the default in your state and dig in your heels and give up anything you are willing to give up only if he seems totally read to settle. Get out as quick as you can.

If it's MLC, then the real H will come back to himself one day and you can be nice to him then.




Last edited by Gerda; 04/10/21 08:40 PM.

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DnJ, you are probably tired of telling me the same things in different words. I am so grateful for your steady presence and gentle reminders.

I have been working on sorting out feelings vs logic lately and overall believe I have been doing a good job. Yesterday just threw me and I fell off the feelings wagon for a bit. Your words steadied me and helped me get back on the horse.

Helpful takeaways that I needed to be reminded of:
Hurt people hurt people.
Projections, most of it.
I control me.
Boundaries (revisit these for myself and fortify the ones that need fortifying).

Also, this made me want to cry:

Originally Posted by DnJ
My W condescendingly and so smugly told me I’d never find true love like she did with OM, but she’d tell me all my flaws so I could maybe work on them to maybe find an ok relationship in the future. The list of flaws, she estimated would take a few hours to go over.

That is quite funny - now. At the time, I was destroyed. Confidence shot. Self doubts everywhere and about everything. And yes, it hurt a lot!


Cry with both empathy for you (as I have heard different, but similarly hurtful things) and at the absurdity of wanting to hurt a good person like that. In both your XW and my H's situation, it is almost as if your and my strength (serenity, goodness, love, compassion) is too powerful a force, one that must be beaten down, smashed, broken in an attempt for our spouses to gain some sort of internal sense of power or control. Except it didn't work, did it?

Speaks to the unbreakable power of goodness, integrity and a well-lived life.

KML, thank you for your wisdom and advice. Check to all the items on your list. H is not necessarily trying to take me for a ride, nor I him; it is the emotional side of things that are in the way to success at the moment. Could I get more? Probably. Could he? Probably. I think it was your exH that said 'if both of us feel like it was unfair, then it was probably fair.' I think we're pretty close to that mark. I have more legal experience than he does and always did the books/taxes/family financials. No wool over these eyes.

GERDA!!
I want to give you a BIG squishy hug!!!! Welcome back, I hope Lenten was a restorative period for you. I am SO happy to hear from you!

The first thing I thought of when I read your post was an old quote I read somewhere:

Never grow a wishbone, daughter, where your backbone ought to be.

You are a master at words and imagery:

Originally Posted by Gerda
You ARE a woman of grace and love and forgiveness. But that doesn't mean you should stick your hand out through the bars to pet a poisonous snake.


And I have been ruminating on this all day:

Originally Posted by Gerda
He's either in MLC from a deep wound that pre-dated your or he has NPD and you didn't notice before.

That is why you can forgive him. Because he can't have empathy right now, no matter what you say or do. Like a person with no legs being asked to run.


Beautiful and true.

Originally Posted by Gerda
As far as negotiating or not -- I would instead use the metaphor of puppies at play. If they bite too hard, they get pushed out of the playspace. Or nipped by their mom. He just bit you too hard. You tried to settle his divorce (not yours!) in an adult way. It didn't work. He bit you. And isn't even aware he bit you.


My girls and I volunteer with young rehabbed miniature horses, most of whom were taken from their mothers as foals (they're so tiny then!) and then abandoned when they get bigger. They are a little unruly: nip, bite, kick. The girls asked me why and I told them that when a horse is taken away from its mother too soon, it doesn't learn the appropriate social skills a horse needs to be a good horse. A mother horse will bite a foal back, just like your puppies, to teach it not to ever bite. Otherwise it never learns.

H wasn't given the tools he needed when he was young, so like with the miniature horses, I have to use a slightly firmer hand and more clear boundaries than I would with a properly raised horse. Thanks for the delightful analogy!

Originally Posted by Gerda
If it's MLC, then the real H will come back to himself one day and you can be nice to him then.


Oh, I know this is true. I just want to be nice NOW. What a waste of life for all these MLCers who spend so long fighting instead of looking inwards or recognizing love and kindness when it cloaks them in a velvety embrace.

Sigh. Oh well.

xxx
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Hi Sage

Originally Posted by Sage4
DnJ, you are probably tired of telling me the same things in different words.

Nope, not even close. smile

I enjoy talking with you.

Originally Posted by Sage4
In both your XW and my H's situation, it is almost as if your and my strength (serenity, goodness, love, compassion) is too powerful a force, one that must be beaten down, smashed, broken in an attempt for our spouses to gain some sort of internal sense of power or control.

Yes, that is it. They are out of control and try all kinds of things to feel better and in control of their lives.

Originally Posted by Sage4
Except it didn't work, did it?

No it did not. Lol.

All their stubborn blameful prideful unjustified projections does not make it so. Try as they might.

Originally Posted by Sage4
I have been working on sorting out feelings vs logic lately and overall believe I have been doing a good job.

You are doing an excellent job!

Next up, beliefs. Logic (and feelings) vs beliefs.

By the way, feelings vs logic vs beliefs, is not a battle between them to see which comes out on top. Each is important and each strengthens and influences the other. We are just getting them organized and straighten out is all.

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Oh Sage. Hugs.

Nothing you do will be right to your H. Therefore it doesn’t matter what his reactions are. You keep doing you. You want to be kind, keep being kind. Keep doing the right things for yourself.

Definitely get a lawyer to do all the legal talk. Hiring a lawyer was a turning point for me because it further eliminated all the unnecessary back and forth between me and my ExH. Even though financially didn’t help me too much, it definitely help with my SANITY!!!!

I’m sorry that you were hurt by his words. It will take awhile, but one day his words won’t mean much to you anymore. Imagine a crazy person yelling at you on the subway in NYC. You wouldn’t care much would you? You will be able to shrug it off.

Are you a country chick? Either way, I’d recommend listening to the Chick’s “gaslighter” album. It was a great outlet for me to sing along. Lol.


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I think the problem with being kind and compassionate to someone in as much crisis as your H is that it holds up a mirror to him and he can't handle that. Deep down, he knows who you are, and every time you show him compassion it breaks him a little more because he sees you and the enormous contrast between your behavior and his own. He seems to have zero control over his feelings and actions. And he knows you well enough to know how to really hurt you... it feels like this just keeps ratcheting up and getting worse. I mean, I know when they go low we should go high (heart emoji) but in this case he is just drilling a giant oil well in the ocean floor and won't stop until the entire ocean is polluted. He is out of control.

Can you say to yourself, the kindest thing to do is to NOT engage? As DnJ says, sometimes the true act of compassion may be not being outwardly compassionate because that is what the recipient needs? It may not FEEL compassionate to you, but because you're focused on what the other person needs and not what you need yourself to feel like you're being compassionate, it truly is? (Does that make any sense? I feel like I'm talking in circles).

I don't necessarily think your H has NPD, but I wonder if grey rock is a good strategy for you here, at least until you get to that place Wooba talks about where he can't hurt you.

(((SAGE)))

Also.... miniature, baby horses. I can't.


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Sage,

I think everyone with the most eloquent words has told you be kind and compassionate to yourself first, and the most kind and compassionate thing you can do for H right now is bow out. Since all of that's been covered, I'm taking off my enlightened, wise Wayfarer hat and putting on my funny and p!ssed off girl hat.

#1 rule of being an American, we don't negotiate with terrorists. Say it with me Sage, WE DO NOT NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS. H is an emotional terrorist. He will do everything in his power to make you as visibly miserable as he feels inside. Every chance he gets to blow this process up he will take it. With or without a lawyer. But with a lawyer you have an officer of the court taking note of every insane moment in time, and a person on your side whom H can't torture. An L couldn't care less about whatever non-sense H or H's hypothetical L could throw at them. It is literally their job to deal with that hot mess for you.

Go grey rock. Go as dark as you can with out tipping the scales. Stop trying to do this amicably with H. It hasn't been amicable. It's been you doing the heavy lifting. You know this. Hire some one to do the heavy lifting. Get a L. Get a L ASAP.

I say this with the utmost love and all of my short Latinx energy: If I could call a cousin to sort H out for you or slash a tire or 3 myself I would (jokes only folks I promise), but since this is the best I can do, please, take in what every one is saying, take a few deep breaths and pull the trigger on a lawyer. Do this for you. You deserve the peace it will bring.

PS Sorry to hijack your thread but this needs to be addressed:
Originally Posted by wooba
Are you a country chick? Either way, I’d recommend listening to the Chick’s “gaslighter” album. It was a great outlet for me to sing along. Lol.

This is how I know you you're my people wink Rumours, Lemonade and Gaslighter for DDAAAYYYSSS!

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