Oct/Nov of 2019 H starts acting really distant after a very stressful year of work, travel and building our business. I find out about an EA with a client and lose my mind and say and do all the wrong things. H tells me he is not sure if he wants to work on the M, just wants to be happy. We start MC, but it feels like H is just ticking boxes. He goes to MC alone and then tells me he wants to separate and 'find out what he wants in life'. I didn't see any of this coming, I had no idea he was unhappy. I knew that work stress was intense for both of us, but I never thought we would be in the place. We have four young children and our relationship was the envy of all of our friends and family. H moved out in Aug 2020.
After a horrific year of monstering, spewing, being told all sorts of horrible things about myself and my personality and a complete re-writing of history, I am finally ready to drop the rope. I have spent the past year trying to see things from his perspective, examined what I have done wrong, how I need to change and blamed myself for all of our marital issues. We had an awful conversation on NYE, I held it together for the kids and afterwards once I was alone, I sobbed and sobbed. That was a turning point for me. I decided I can't live like this anymore. I can no longer be a punching bag for someone else's projections, emotions and issues that I did not cause. I did not break him. I cannot fix him.
I have spent the past month trying to build back my self-worth and self-esteem, but it is achingly slow. H and I have started D discussions and I have accepted that this is what he wants and that it is the most likely outcome. I do not want to be with someone who does not want to be with me. I am able to be calm, kind and considerate in our frequent interactions and I have established boundaries that feel clear and comfortable to both of us. If we weren't talking about D, I would say that things between us this past month are the best they have been in a year.
The latest discussion that was happening on my previous thread was about negotiating a D on our own. I think my expectation here is that we will start the process in good faith and see how far we can go on our own.
For anyone reading the in the future, the last few pages of my previous thread has some really good ideas and experienced suggestions for the D process, so it is worth reading. Below I have quoted some of the most salient points to my situation, thanks OwnIt, KML, Gerda and Wayfarer!
Originally Posted by OwnIt
A suggestion, perhaps come up with a schedule of topics and try to deal with them in short meetings. Long meetings covering lots of topics are tough in the best of times. Have an attorney review anything before you sign. Know your deal breakers and your throwaways. People don't always want the same things and sometimes the other side really cares about something you don't. Also private resolutions provide much more flexibility than what the court can grant. So put on your thinking cap. What can you give him that you don't value and he might. Does he have fears you could allay in some way? Often people draw lines in the sand insistent on getting things the court can't even give them or fighting to the death over hypothetical issues.
Always good to get custody/visitation out of the way and it isn't something you can tradeoff for other factors.
Originally Posted by KML
I would recommend you have a consultation on your own with an attorney. Just to find out what are your rights, and what is reasonable to expect. All too often these “let’s work it out ourselves” situations result in the woman getting shafted more often than not.
Then ask for a little bit more than you’re entitled to, so you have some room to negotiate.
Also don’t forget life insurance in him sufficient to cover child support until the kids are grown and spousal support.
Originally Posted by Gerda
My dad also told me, based on his D from my MLC mom, that he got very good advice from his lawyer at the time. Cut all ties, leave nothing open. For my dad that meant giving her a credit for alimony and child support on her share of the house, so that after their D, they had no cause to have any financial discussion ever again.
---- The last question on my previous thread:
I don't know if he is fully aware of how much I contributed to our business and what it would cost to replace me and maintain the level of financial success we enjoyed. Is that something I should talk to him about? He is very sensitive about believing that he started this business all on his own, it's an ego thing for him, but I also have a vested interest in his success because I need support and alimony until I am able to be financially solvent. What would you guys do?
I will definitely have everything reviewed before I sign a thing. In the meantime, all the suggestions, experiences and thoughts are really helpful to me, so keep them coming!
I don't know if he is fully aware of how much I contributed to our business and what it would cost to replace me and maintain the level of financial success we enjoyed. Is that something I should talk to him about? He is very sensitive about believing that he started this business all on his own, it's an ego thing for him, but I also have a vested interest in his success because I need support and alimony until I am able to be financially solvent. What would you guys do?
Hi dear Sage,
I've been thinking about this question of yours all day. I think it is a really tough one. It makes a lot of sense to me that his ego is wholly wrapped up into the idea of him doing this business all on his own, and he has probably taken very much for granted all the work you have done in the business. In many ways, it also mirrors how you have consistently taken on the lion's share at home too. he simply has no idea what it takes to run your household, let alone your business.
I worry that this is going to be really hard, because he is probably starting from such a fantasyland place with zero bearing on reality, and it is hard for you to both be the compassionate partner in detangling your marriage and business and at the same time be the truth-teller to someone who has buried his head for so long. I had some ideas of different strategies you might employ, all for you to take or leave:
-- you are such a good listener-- can you start this out by just asking him to share his thoughts? Maybe even say you want to understand what he is thinking and absorb it without responding at all? Direct him to a website that has the basics of what a community property D looks like and get his first take? That way you know what you're dealing with. maybe he could give it to you in an email or something, so you don't have any pressure to react in real time to it (at least in his sight).
-- instead of starting out with a D attorney, another option might be a counselor that specializes in divorce or in business breakups. I have a friend whose family went through a process of dividing up a big family business, and they hired a consultant/psychologist to manage the process. It wasn't cheap, but it might feel more collaborative and could help you hammer out a deal before you bring in the Ls.
-- I also wonder if you might reconsider the idea of starting out with a mediator, rather than wholly on your own. A mediator does this work all day long and a good one can really, really help without making it feel adversarial. It doesn't need to be shuttling back and forth to different rooms, I think you can be in the room, the three of you, and walk through things. That way you have a trained third party who both knows and understands the law (so you aren't the bearer of bad news on reality here) and can help you both go through all the necessary questions. I think the benefit of starting with a professional (even if you went the divorce counselor route rather than mediator) is that they might be able to keep it from going off the rails in the first place, whereas your H doesn't have the best track record in non-monstering when it just the two of you and he starts to feel uncomfortable or guilty. If you try on your own and he monsters, then you're starting from a negative point when you get to mediation rather than neutral or both feeling relatively positive about the process and situation.
-- I don't know if this is a fear of yours (or even a question given that your H needs to travel for work) but I had a major fear that once we got to the D part where H really understood the implications of giving me more than 50/50 custody-- not only getting less time with the kids but paying me more in child support-- that I would lose out on time with the children AND the $$, which I probably would have needed to help me keep this house. (though with interest rates where they are, I could have just refinanced, so there is that!) Anyway, I agree with the others that working out the custody part first and getting some agreement and closure on it could be really beneficial, before you get to the sticky business stuff.
You are such an amazing person, Sage. I'm glad that you're able to see past his confusion and sadness and that none of that has a single thing to do with YOU. Keep that beautiful head held high. You got this.
xx M
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
The custody is the most important thing in every way. For them. They should not be around a crazy person half the time. And everything financial also depends on how much they are with you. Get that done fast, say that you want to make sure the children have a plan before you talk about money. My wasband filed for full custody, child support and alimony when he filed for D. He had barely even seen the children in three years, most of the time we didn't even know where he was. He only did this to get the money that came with it. He gave it up after only a few months and settled on pretty minimal visitation. And hasn't seen my son in almost two years. Granted, I STILL get no child support, but that's because my judge is the worst and my lawyers were bad. I will eventually get it.
So get that done first and do whatever you can to have sole physical custody (joint legal is fine if he is not dangerous!) with generous visitation.
Now about this other thing about him realizing what you did for the business. Insert an F word here, followed by "THAT." You think he is going to ever be able to realize/admit how amazing you were for your business when he can't realize/admit what a wonderful wife and mother you are?! Every single thing he has done to you as a woman HE WILL DO TO YOU AS A BUSINESS PARTNER. If you don't believe me, read my threads.
Sage, our situations are weirdly similar. The business partner thing is unusual on these boards and we both had that. So please learn from my he\\.
Here's your mantra -- JUST THE FACTS, MA'AM, JUST THE FACTS. What your H thinks does not matter and is IRRELEVANT. Why even let what he might think into your mind? It will only confuse you, just as it did after BD. Your only concern is what is true, not what he thinks is true.
So gather your files of what you did. The proof you would use at trial if someone said, "She did not even play a role in this business." It can include narrative and it can include e-mails and texts and any other correspondence you need to show that you were doing stuff for the biz, dealing with clients, applying for loans, call records to permit office, setting things up, buying curtains for the office, whatever the heck it is. Gather all that stuff together for your confidence now and the proof you'll need if court happens, and know the truth and don't worry about his ego. Just keep calmly repeating the truth and the outcome you want, and know how far from that outcome you are willing to go. Don't get distracted by other accusations except as a rhetorical strategy, to appear very surprised that he forgot all that you did. His ego is the reason he is destroying your family; do you really think you can tame that thing? Don't try to figure out what will work on him. Nothing will or everything will. It's pretty random. Just get your story straight for your own heart and mind and jump off with your parachute ready.
Another thing I did -- I set up a new company with me as the sole member, and I started using that to collect our rents. That company pays rent to me and H. Got him and his financial shipwreck off my record and made it really clear what is joint income and what is company income/expense. If you have a way to do something like that, do it now, seriously.
I always leave the boards for Lent, so I will soon not be here for a while. If you have any other questions you want me to answer, now is the time. (Unless by some common experience miracle you also live nearby?)
Last edited by Gerda; 01/27/2102:49 PM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
His ego is the reason he is destroying your family; do you really think you can tame that thing?
Just really resonated. This is all wrapped up together, his ego, his leaving, his solo business success-- I don't see how he untangles this right now. Remember how he gaslit you on housekeeping? He'll find a parallel here... and DO NOT LET IT GET TO YOU. You know it isn't true, and you're in a much stronger place today than you were three or six months ago. You know the truth. Don't let it go.
HUGS. You got this.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I think it is always a good idea to hear what he has to say. You don't have to agree with him and you don't have to (and shouldn't) fight with him about it. If he is leaving something out, ask a question that might direct him to what, for example a replacement cost is for something you would generally do, or how much he would have had to borrow to cover a start up cost, etc. Being argumentative is not going to work and it will shut down the discussion and not even provide his view of your situation, which believe me, will be very good to know. Have a dialog. Don't worry initially about an agreement. See if you guys have the same view, the same concerns. There may be lots of things you agree on, and as I said, you may be able to give him things he cares about and him the same with you. Then go back to your lawyer and discuss the areas of agreement, the areas of conflict, what has a work-around, what doesn't, etc. Divorces do not have to be nasty. They really don't. Smart people really can make common sense resolutions without spending hundreds of thousands of dollars.
I remain convinced that if my husband would just sit down and share his concerns with me, and be honest with me, and listen to my concerns, that we could reach an agreement. Too often you have a situation between the parties that is only exacerbated by an issue with the lawyer(s). That is definitely true with my husband's lawyer who very clearly has some serious issues. From the first contact he showed that he was not a neutral focused on a resolution, but rather he over-personalized the case, had no concept of the issues in the case, made allegations that were untrue and for which he had no knowledge, and was not at all interested in hearing how he may have misevaluated the case. An example. He sent my an attorney an email about what he saw as the difference in our incomes and in view of that because my husband had been paying me substantially more, he said that I had been able to pocket huge sums of money and put them in my retirement (never mind that the retirement in question was from a job I left before he moved out and that I had made no additional contributions to that retirement--my subsequent retirement funds were in a separate and clearly labeled account). He then proceeded to say that my husband should only have to pay me the difference in our incomes. Now that makes sense right? That would be a reasonable starting point (still problems, because my income is not predictable and guaranteed, his is, I get paid months after the end of a year, etc.). Except for one thing. He forgot that we have two very expensive children, a minor and one in college, for whom I pay 100% of the expenses. So either his point was that I should have to completely foot the bill for both children, or, more likely, he and my husband forgot we have two children that require support. When that was factored in, guess what, he had been paying the right amount. Did he come back and apologize for the nasty comments about me and his misperception of the case and the facts of the case? Not that I've ever seen. He has taken ridiculous positions like this at every turn and behaved in a completely unprofessional manner from the outset (I have video of his process server breaking into my house while I was out). While not every situation is as bad as this one, I caution you not to start out thinking it has to be ugly and expensive. Because it does not.
Own, when you weigh in on legal stuff, it's so helpful for us all.
Is it considered a requirement for lawyers to be "neutral focused on a resolution"? If that's the case, my H's L should be disbarred. He has ignored, rejected or endlessly redlined every offer I made (dozens, in writing) and turned in fake documents and fraudlent tax returns for almost three years without ever providing a reasonable counterproposal or agreeing to any child support not to mention well-documented debt. I had bad lawyers, it's true, but all of them would emerge totally exhausted and flabbergasted from phone calls or meetings with him, saying that he was completely impossible.
Anyway, mostly just wanted to say that I love reading your legal posts, very helpful!
Last edited by Gerda; 01/28/2103:28 PM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Sorry Gerda, bit of a clarification. Not a neutral in the sense of a mediator who should have no preference for either side. A lawyer should be a zealous advocate, within the bounds of the law and the requirements of professionalism, for their client but should remain personally detached so they can effectively evaluate the case and watch out for their client's best interest. A client does not need a buddy in attacking the other side, they need cool-headed detachment and an ability to weigh everything, good and bad, to properly advise a client about whether they should settle or litigate. When you begin to personalize a dispute, you've lost the ability to help your client.
I wasn't as savy, but am making the best of what I can now. DO look after YOU. It's business.
I went with my heart and not my head. LISTEN TO YOUR HEAD. Look at all the what if's. Cover all your bases.
GET everything in writing. Sure, you can work together, agree on things, but do get someone to represent you.
Best of luck.
~Never Give Up ~ 2019 Mar BD June BD Dec Aow/xgf 2020 Jan he wants D Feb he flys2 ow Mar returns stuck here C19 Lckdwn Apr he leaves for work until Nov Oct D FINAL 2020 Living MY Happiest Life Ever
Create a new thread so I can post on it before you take a lent break! I have been meaning to get on here and update and will do so later this evening. But I want to share some thoughts and love before you disappear for a while.
