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Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Steve85
Actually, I think the big difference is that pretty early on in my sitch I began to embrace the idea of her leaving and us getting a D.

Uuuumm you may want to reread your sitch when you have time. Your memory may be a little clouded (fog) lol.
Originally Posted by Steve85
I also need to correct you. While I probably ate more crap sandwiches than I should have, I certainly would not characterize it as "a lot".

" a lot" is certainly subjective
Originally Posted by Steve85
The point I think for May here is that she has to be CLEAR what she requires for Ring and piecing. Allowing him to slink back into MR 1.0, without working on the issues that opened him up to the OW to begin with, is a recipe for future disaster.

The problem is that shipped has sailed. She let him off the hook too easily.
Originally Posted by Steve85
So yes, remorse on the cheating spouse's part is a must. But another must is the LBS knowing what they want in Ring and piecing, and clearly articulating that to their WAS....and having the backbone to adhere to that.

You see Steve we both agree here lol.


I understand you feel you understand the dynamics of my situation more than I do. So we will agree to disagree.

In general I stand by what I said:

May is handling her sitch like I did the my 2005 sitch.

May needs to be handling her sitch like I did my 2017 sitch, as imperfect as that handling was at times.


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hi everyone,

wow, lots of really great food for thought here! I have a few minutes and want to share a few thoughts back:

first, now I feel like a huge slob. For a bit of context, for most of our M, I did 90% of the shopping and cooking. H helped cleaning up the kitchen and I did most of the rest of the cleaning of the house. (Yes, we both have FT jobs). When we had our first child we sprung for a cleaning service (best $ I've ever spent) so much of the deep cleaning is managed by them these days, though during the lockdowns I re-developed enormous respect for their skills and profession and was filled with gratitude for what they do. In the second year of the A, H started IC, I read DB and started practicing 180s (I did not know about the A at this point). He stepped up a lot around the house. Now he does 90% of the grocery shopping and 50% of the cooking. I probably do 75% of the kitchen stuff and everything else-- vacuuming, bathrooms, tidying up every night. (To be fair, as he likes to point out all the time, he does 90 percent of the yardwork. But that isn't a daily task.)

I clean up something of his at least half a dozen times a day. It doesn't bother me, UNTIL he starts acting like a d!ck when he decides to do something. Before, I would get angry and resentful and I stopped cleaning up after him, or if I did it would be resentful while doing it. Now, I am not. I TRULY don't care about leaving that spoon dirty. I TRULY don't care that he's mad about it. I'm not angry and letting it seep out or anything. I. don't. care. If I did, I think I'd go back down that hole of resentment regarding everything else and that is M1.0. I'm not going back there. Maybe there is a more enlightened and inclusive way I could do this? I would be open to it. Basically I'm trying to protect myself from feeling resentful. He feels like me saying I don't care about the spoon is saying I don't care about him and his feelings-- or at least, that is how he felt. I'm not sure how to deal with that.

On being explicit about what I want-- yes, I have been explicit. He knows. Am I asking too much? Maybe. I don't expect it is going to happen, though, at least not anytime soon.

Originally Posted by steve85
Originally Posted by may22
They would include reading the Shirley Glass and Gottman books, initiating R talks, spending time and energy figuring out an MC who will take our insurance.

may, are these things that you would expect from your H before all of this? I mean did he engage in these kinds of activities previously? If one of you needed to see a specialist, would he do the research to find a specialist that accepted your insurance, or is that something you did? Was he a reader of self-help books prior to all of this?

My point is that, yes you need to have requirements for him to come back and to R and piece. (By the way, I see in your sig you think you are attempting to R again, but there can be no R without piecing!) But you cannot expect him to become someone he isn't. And your requirements have to be realistic. Like expecting that OW is completely out of his head. Yeah.......probably not realistic. I know you'd love for this to be the case. And you may have an idealistic, romantic belief that it is possible. But take it from another man, it probably isn't. Guys have a tough time getting the girl from 5th grade out of their heads, let alone a woman they have had sexual relations with! The key here is that you work through whether or not you are ok with that truth, and if you can live with the idea that when you married this man, this OW was not in his head, but now all this time later she is.

All good points, and you have me rethinking this a bit. I'm *always* the researcher. For everything. And no, neither of us ever read self-help books. It was a big hurdle for me to overcome to buy DR. But I'm glad I did smile

And in/re R vs piecing... I see it differently, that you must first decide to reconcile and then begin piecing, and sometimes the reconciliation process takes some time. For instance, in Blu's case, her H wanted to R and they spent some time in MC and spending time together before she agreed to let him move back in and they began piecing. I feel like that is where we are, except we happen to live in the same house. He has said explicitly to me he wants this to work, he wants M2.0, he wants to build a new MR with me, to have the life we want to live together. He loves me, he is working on getting her out of his mind, we have total transparency, etc. He has said he needs time and he (maybe a month ago is the last time he said this) that he thinks I am trying to jump too far ahead. I think he has a fair point, and I also have stuff to work on myself-- so I have stopped talking to him about this and focused on my own feelings and processing them. I have felt like the danger in this is that I will truly stop caring and won't want him as an H anymore. TBH, I feel like this maybe more than I should as someone who is supposed to be standing.

And finding a MC that will take our insurance... he did it the first time. Motivated, I believe, by a desire to check that box and get Ded from me and run off with his AP. (I didn't know about her.) So he is FULLY capable of doing this legwork if he is motivated enough, so I'm comfortable sticking with that one. He also did the legwork to find his own IC. (I found the MC the second time around, who it turns out doesn't take our insurance after all and we haven't seen him since lockdown.) And he has picked up both books and read parts of them, though not this time around... and I know I pushed him to do it when he did it before. This time, I'm curious to see if he does it on his own. I've told him it would be a way for him to better understand what I'm going through. I feel like he really wants to minimize my trauma and pain, because it makes him feel too guilty.

And about getting her out of his head... yeah, he still has a crush on Winnie Cooper from the Wonder Years. I feel like I can be okay that it happened, as soon as I believe that it is wholly in the past. That he doesn't believe himself to be "in love" with her anymore. That he fully regrets his actions and wishes he didn't do it.

The last time we had an R talk, I asked him what he would do if she reached out to him. He said, I'll tell you about it. I said, would you respond at all? he said no, I'd talk to you about it first so we could decide what to do together. This is a huge change from where he was before, even more so because this was his idea, not mine. But, I also told him that what I wanted was if that phone rang and he realized it was her, for his first thought to be... fC&k. why is she calling me? I don't want to deal with her, not the butterflies or whatever I know her calls elicited in him before. Truth is, I don't know where his head is, and which camp he'd fall into if this happened. I don't know that he knows himself. But that is what I want. Is that too much?

I do not think if I push him he'll go back to OW's arms, at this point. I really don't. It is funny because I think I was afraid of that for a long time. Now, I don't really think it would happen and if it did, I think a big part of me would be secretly glad because I could just wash my hands of all of this and move on.

I do think that H wants M2.0, not M1.0, at least intellectually. I'm not sure, though, what M2.0 means to him because we haven't really talked about it. I have a suspicion that M2.0 might just mean he gets his way more because he thinks in M1.0 I ran the show. That would be disappointing to me, if that is the case. He is scared of digging into the hard work of why he cheated because he thinks if he really faced up to it being completely wrong and let go of all his justifications, he would not be able to handle it. it would break him. (He's said this to me on more than one occasion.) But this is all on his side of the road, not mine. He'll either do this work, or he won't. I can't do it for him. I just need to keep focusing on me and seeing if I see progress on his side, or I don't, and then at some point whether or not I want to keep trying if I don't think he's capable of doing the work it takes to be a good H.

I don't think I expect him to be that person, right now. I did, for a long time. Now, I don't. It makes me sad, but it is what it is. I am just annoyed when I feel like he wants to jump ahead on some parts-- having me be squishy happy because he bought me a record-- without dealing with all the garbage underneath. I feel like allowing myself to be squishy happy about stuff like that is letting a wound scab over without clearing out all the pus inside, and it will become an abscess. I don't want that. If he's ready to clean it out, I am too. If he isn't, we gotta let that thing air out, and that is manifested in some level of distance between us.

LH, I think the A was longer than it might have been otherwise because it was long-distance. They saw each other maybe every 6-8 weeks for a magical few nights and then he flew back home. The first nine months or so were standard stuff, then they went into romeo and juliet mode, breaking up every time they saw each other. he told me in July of 2019 she re-sent him an email he'd sent her in July of 2018, which I think basically said I'll leave May soon and we can be together, and the reason she re-sent it to him was because absolutely nothing had changed. I still didn't even know about her existence. He said he tried to leave me, he tried to end it with her, he couldn't do either. (That's where his fantasyland D came from, where we'd all be best friends and sister-wives.) Steve, I think you'd written recently (I think it was you) about your W flip-flopping back and forth between wanting to stay and wanting to go. This is what my H has said to me, that one minute he would be convinced that he had to leave and be with her, 100%, and ten minutes later he would think the exact opposite. Anyway, I think that the long distance aspect of all of this (plus twu wuv, of course) is why it lasted so long without him being a sociopath. Though he was very, very angry with me about the SSM, also.

Wayfarer, thinking on your post.

Wow, seeing that there was more action since I started writing this but I gotta go... will read and respond more later. I really appreciate all of this.


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May, great post! I think after reading that I will back away from a lot of the things I've said. You've clearly thought about this and have considered a lot and seem to have a good idea of what you want and how to get there. And you have articulated that to your H. So I now understand your frustration a bit more. It makes a lot of sense.

And I too still have a crush on Winnie Cooper! Lol


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Originally Posted by LH19
My point being is if I am May's husband and she's pursued me for two years trying to get me to end my affair and I end it and think I am trying and she continues to blow up at me I am eventually going to give up. More of the same behavior that I ran from in the first place.

I don't disagree with you at all. And, I didn't blow up at him... that was kind of my point. I would have before. If he'd yelled at me about a GD spoon I would have given it back at him for being an a-hole and would have seethed about it for the next several hours. Instead, I ... didn't care. I said so. That was it, then I went back to my book.

That being said, I know he feels like he's trying and I'm not recognizing it. I'm thinking on this more, particularly in/re WF's post.

And, also, FWIW, something I've just thought of... this response from me made him think and then cry. I don't believe he came to the right conclusion about why I said what I did, and I think the tears were self-pity rather than anything to do with his own contributions towards our situation. But, the other two responses I would have given in the past-- either saying okay sorry and swallowing some $hit-- which to him just confirms that he was right-- or getting angry in response-- which to him confirms that I'm a b*tch-- aren't where I want to be.

Originally Posted by BluWave
May! I think this is the most honest, clear headed and confident thing I’ve read from you. I love it. I was surprised at the last two posters’ reactions. You are holding firm on your boundaries and teaching him what is acceptable and what is not. Because this isn’t about a dirty spoon! That’s not what really matters. The power dynamic in the relationship is slowly shifting, and yes it will be uncomfortable, but it’s about time. I do not feel sorry for him, not at all. He needs to be broken of his entitlement and selfishness and it doesn’t behoove him for you to allow that to continue.

I guess this is how I feel. I am not going to be yelled at about a dirty spoon. (Or, I can't control whether or not he yells, but I can control how I respond, and I just don't care to respond to the yelling.) I'm sorry. I get it bothers him. (It actually bothers me too, but not enough to be rude about it to my husband.) I want a relationship where if I see an accidentally left dirty spoon I'll think oh no! H missed a dirty spoon when he unloaded the dishwasher! And take care of it without feeling anger or resentment in my heart. I got to this place after a lot of work and I don't want to let it go. (To me, that would be going backwards into M1.0). I want the same from him.

What I think happens in his head (which I am familiar with, because this used to happen to me) is a burst of frustration towards me, GD it, she never looks at the spoons before she puts it away, that makes me so frustrated, etc., and it boils over into yelling at me. I don't like that. WHY should a dirty spoon matter more than my relationship with my spouse? How is the extra second it takes to grab a different one worth yelling at someone? I also understand that that road goes both ways-- I could also take that extra second to check the spoon before it goes into the drawer, because I care about him and I don't want him to feel frustrated. I'm actually okay with doing that. But I'm not going to do it because he yelled at me.

Originally Posted by BluWave
It’s so much easier to step up and be Mr Super Dad and H than to dig deep and work on the M problems. He puts on his cape and he cooks, cleans and buys the most perfect gift (only perfect in his design, and so obviously not perfect for you) and then he expects praise and appreciation — look what a great guy I am tho!!! ... That’s the easy stuff. .....You know what I want to see? I want to see a man that wants to see you. I mean really, really see YOU. What do you need? How much has he hurt you? It’s not just about him. All the superness doesn’t erase the destruction he has caused. And no, you do not have to tell him this explicitly, you already have. He knows.

He can only fake it until he makes it for so long. He will have to really look at what he has done and explore the whys — it’s hard and it’s painful to look inside and do that kind of work. I watched my own H and it’s a dark place. I have had to do some of that too.

Blu, yes, yes, yes. He is trying in his way, and I do appreciate it. The AoS, the gifts, etc. And he wants it to erase what he did, I think. He does not want to look at me and *see* me and accept the destructiveness of what he did. Maybe he can't. Maybe he will be able to with time. I don't think he can, at this moment, because he can't yet face what that means. He says he is working on all of this in IC, why he did what he did. I don't get the sense he's digging deep, yet, getting to the deep dark corners. I guess where I am right now is... maybe he will get there. I hope that he does, very much. Maybe he won't. Then I have some hard decisions in front of me. But I've let go (and need to continue to let go, sometimes, daily) of any expectation that this will happen today or tomorrow or next week. It will or it won't, and there will be a point if I'll be done if it doesn't happen.


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Originally Posted by Oceangl
I just want to add that when I read your post I sense your deep anger and hurt. I don't know about you, but for me, sometimes when he has been nice to some degree to me, I feel anger rise up. It's like I finally felt like it was safe enough to let it surface. I've realized that I still have hurt and anger to deal with, and I have to be careful to acknowledge it and see it so I don't take it out on others. It's so hard.

Jeez. I did think I had worked through a lot of the anger. I feel that I have. The burning rage has dissipated, quite a bit. (WF, thinking on whether I'm fooling myself and have just morphed into the icy stage... I don't *think* so but I want to take the time to really reflect on it and see). But the fact you can read the anger and hurt in this post makes me think I'm not as far along as I'd liked to believe... which makes sense too. I did have to go punch my punching bag later that night after that exchange, so the anger was there. The hurt is there too. it feels a bit more raw right now than it has, I think as the anger has ebbed away it rises to the surface. I know exactly what you mean about feeling safe to be angry. That has absolutely happened to me.

Originally Posted by Oceangl
I would also be careful of expectations. Expectations are tricky things. Needs are better, and can actually be satisfied. I agree he needs to show he is working on himself, but I am not sure dictating which books to read are the correct way. The way you work on yourself and what touches your heart and mind are likely different than his.

Agreed. I am working continually on dropping expectations and I think I've made good progress here. I have not been communicating my needs to him lately because... I don't know. I don't think he is capable of meeting them, really, and I feel like I want to be able to deal with my own emotions and responses myself without expecting anything from him. Though in typing that out I feel like I should reexamine needs vs expectations and maybe I'm conflating them... at this point I kind of feel like I shouldn't need or expect anything of or from him. (And I had an assignment from LH to just chill, be in the moment, and enjoy Christmas, so that is what I was trying to do! smile )

On the books, I guess I feel like if it is too hard for him to acknowledge from me directly how much he hurt me, maybe understanding the process in a more abstract way will be helpful. And there are also parts about SSMs and how a SSM is a betrayal of your S also... things I've read and learned about the impact and hurt my actions had on him, which were hard to read but important. Of course, when he read parts of these books in the past he's totally keyed on those areas, and the parts about why people have affairs and how they feel in affairs. He has skipped the parts about the trauma response, the flashbacks, the needing to re-calibrate your memories and identity in the wake of learning your S had an affair. Those are the parts I want him to read.


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Originally Posted by Ginger1
I wrote a whole long post and decided to delete that one. May, I know this is tough.

Basically, you are both back in marriage 1.0. Which is pretty much going to end up with the same result.

I echo wayfarer. He’s trying. But you keep punishing . Marriage 1.0. You let him back with no clear expectations. So he is doing what he thinks he can do. Speak your love language ( acts of service) try to share and connect on his interest and he is getting stonewalled .does he deserve it? Sure, but if you truly want a marriage 2.0, you can’t do that.

I really, really refuse to go back to M1.0. There are definitely flashes of that right now, but I'm doing my best to control my own responses on my side of the street to avoid that outcome. For me, at least, one of the most important things I've identified is to not let resentment creep in. It ate away at me and made me small and bitter and was a major factor in the SSM for me. I don't want that and I'm working hard to not go down that hole. Detaching myself from caring about his frustration is a mechanism for me to keep from feeling resentful. I feel more like... eh. sorry. I don't really give a cr@p about it.

I feel I was really really clear with him about needing her to be 100% out of our lives and his head (yes, I know that was not realistic but that is what I said I wanted) and him to take responsibility for his actions and be wholly remorseful in order for us to move on. That I want to wait until we are at that place before going to MC. (I don't want to go and listen to him being sad about missing AP.)

Maybe I was asking for too much. I know people here have gently questioned me on my desire to see him rending his shirt and tearing his hair with sorrow and remorse, being embarrassed and disgusted when he thinks of his A. I guess this is my fantasy scenario and not very realistic... but I know he's aware that I want him to say he's over her fully before I want to work on things between us. Maybe I'm being petty by not being more appreciative of the things he's trying to do because the big thing isn't done first. To me, it feels like glossing over the fact that the big thing isn't done yet (and maybe never will be done, in which case I don't know that I can stay in the M to him even if he doesn't cheat again) and it feels like we would just be slowly drifting back to M1.0. That is why, at least in my head, I'm sticking to my guns on this and not making it too comfortable for him and reinforcing his trying. I feel more like where Blu is-- that is the easy stuff, and I'm waiting for the harder stuff before I open my heart back up.

And I truly don't feel like I'm punishing him, or stonewalling him in a significant way. I am kind and appreciative. I met his eyes and thanked him multiple times about the record. I made a big deal about it. We listened to it twice. (I did not jump up right away to turn it over when the first side ended because I AM NOT USED TO RECORDS and I didn't think about it... but he noticed and thought I must not really like it). I didn't, however, let it make me go all gooey inside, that he was sharing this thing with me. It did not spark joy or love inside of me. Should it have? It would have before the A. And I hope a gesture like this will again, in time. But where I am right now, being verbally appreciative was about the best I could do. The problem is, I think he expected or hoped it would make me gooey inside, and he knows me well enough to know it didn't. I just am not going to be gooey inside until I feel safely into piecing, I think.

He doesn't get the gooey bright-eyed optimistic May, right now. I can't be that girl. I don't want to be her until he stands up and tells me enough so that I believe it that she's gone from his heart. If you recall, the best he told me was a month or so ago that he wasn't "actively" in love with her anymore. Might that have changed in a month? Maybe. But I'm waiting to hear it from him directly. I don't want to make assumptions based on him being nicer.

Originally Posted by Ginger1
And I get the feeling that you want him be fed up and leave so it’s him doing the leaving and you not doing the kicking out. I could be off base, but I get this impression.

Intellectually, I do not want this. Emotionally, maybe I do, sometimes.


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Originally Posted by Steve85
May, great post! I think after reading that I will back away from a lot of the things I've said. You've clearly thought about this and have considered a lot and seem to have a good idea of what you want and how to get there. And you have articulated that to your H. So I now understand your frustration a bit more. It makes a lot of sense.

And I too still have a crush on Winnie Cooper! Lol

Ha! We are watching the whole series with our kids (though now taking a break as the characters on the show are getting older and more and more just into girls, and they're a little young for it) and it has sparked all kinds of conversations with our male friends and family members. Apparently every male of that age still loooooves Winnie Cooper. smile

Thanks-- I'm an overthinker. Once I get through chewing on these posts I think I'll go back for a bit to my living in the moment and enjoying the holidays with the kids mode.


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May, just so you know I'm not asking you to fawn all over H. He isn't where he needs to be to deserve that. You aren't where you need to be for that to be safe emotionally. I'm just asking you to pay attention to what you're saying and doing. Because I can see what you're saying and what you're not saying here. I don't think you're ungrateful, but you know he can tell when you say things for lip service and when you mean it in the same way you can see the way he is seeking something from you meaningfully or for his own self gratification. I know you think he was crying because of self pity, and honestly maybe he was, but what if that was only part of it.

I cried every time H and I got into a little spat as we tried to glue the pieces of our sh!tshow back together, regardless of whose fault it was because every single time it felt like I was nailing that door shut. I'm not saying your H is enlightened and open enough to think that deeply about things. But there's a good chance he's not a complete narcissist and he may be genuinely upset about things in layers that it's not just self pity. I'm not asking you to comfort him or walk it back. He's a big boy. And at some point here he's going to have to learn to walk through negative feelings all by himself. What I'm saying is that you know you could've taken a higher road and just decided it wasn't worth it. And that doesn't sound like you. That sounds like Rage May.

I can see the little cracks of rage spilling out over the edges of you trying very hard to be detached and take some time to just live your life and figure things out. And I will never not say your anger is justifiable because it is. And it always will be. But we all have to make choices here and I'm worried that because you still have so much of that pain and anger just under the surface that the choices you make are going to be counter productive to what you want because it feels so deeply relieving and freeing in the moment to just not GAF about H or his feelings. But that's a fine line to walk between that kind of detachment and ice. I'm really asking you here to watch your step.

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Wayfarer, I know. I have been thinking about what you said all day. And thinking back to you saying to me a long, long time ago to watch the rage and what would happen when it came out. And not to let this experience make me lose the hopeful and optimistic May inside.

I'm scared I don't know how to walk this middle path. That all I know how to do is to be the optimist or shut it all down. It's hard. I'm crying right now as I type this because it does feel so comfortable to not GAF. And what does that mean about me?

You're right in that I know he can see right through me when I'm just giving something lip service. I did and said all the right things but it wasn't from my heart. And he knew it. And what Sage said awhile back that me not saying anything is still a prison for him because he knows I'm feeling something that makes him feel uncomfortable and he can't deal.

I am thinking now that the record thing might have been more of the issue for him than the "I don't care" comment. Or that they're meshed together, that me saying "I don't care" was about the record and the cooking and the trying and all the rest. I still think there was a good healthy dose of self-pity in there. But you're right in that it may have not been the only feeling. The tears are unusual.

How did you walk that line, WF? I know what people will say is SEPARATE and then you both have the freedom to work through your own $hit on your own timeline without interfering with each other. Short of that, what? I really do feel like the anger has abated, but it is not gone. And I know it isn't a linear process.

Ugh. And our IC just had a big billing issue with our insurance and had to stop sessions for a bit while she gets it worked out. smirk

Maybe what I do next is let myself process some of this again, let it out, punching bag, yoga, meditate, fun something with the kids tonight. Nice glass of wine and bubble bath... and tomorrow start over with living in the moment, maybe a notch kinder than I was being before. I can do this.


Me (46) H (42)
M:14 T:18, D9 & D11
4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs
9/20 - present: R and piecing
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 685
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Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 685
May, my two cents.

You are looking at your H as if he is your H. You are seeing someone you may or may not be with in the future, and you are trying to figure that out, and how he fits into that role you see him in and if he is doing the right or wrong things.

Who is this man in front of you? Who is this person, ignoring ALL titles (husband, father, friend etc.) and your titles as well. Who is this real person in front of you with emotions and a life as deep as your own?

I say stop looking at his actions as things you should respond to, and try to see who this person is with fresh eyes every day, and try to learn something new about him through your obsservations.

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