Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 4 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 40
R
reason Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
R
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 40
Originally Posted by Steve85

You would be setting yourself up. She is wayward. She wants her H and family while age waits for OM's return. It's what we can "cake eating". From the saying "have your cake and eat it too". All the markers are there. You push her on being there VS. just present. You suggest she move into an extended stay. She panics not wanting to be alone for 6 months so she starts manipulating you with affection and sex! Classic WW stuff here.

So, where is your DBing in all of this? I'm not seeing GAL. What are you doing to improve yourself? In the thick of my sitch I was reading 3-4 books a month! Where is your detachment efforts? Have you even tried to separate your emotions from her words and actions?

As far as the intimacy. The general advice is that if you can't let her initiate without attaching significance and meaning to it then you should turn her down. It sounds like that is what your struggling with.



OM isn't returning. He's been shipped out to another duty station.. 3+ years
I don't know what VS is. These last 2-3 days she has opened up about feelings, goals, and the future. I didn't elaborate on this because I was still unpacking.. literally and mentally/emotionally.
The intimacy thing.. that is definitely a hard thing. My body is screaming at me but my heart feels detached.. I want it but it feels like it's in the way that a dog would eat anything you throw to it.

My DBing:
I am literally trying to put her in an extended stay. How is that not detachment effort? I can't drag her to one and change the locks.
I am waiting for class to start in Feb for my Masters. I am having Lasik surgery on the 8th. I have started reconnecting with old friends and spending more time with our kids. I didn't really elaborate on this stuff because my last post was more of an update on my trip/out of town than my specific particulars. Yesterday though, I did leave the house right before she got home. I dressed up nice, and put on cologne etc. I went out by myself for a while. Enjoyed some decompression time and picked up a few things. Our family is blended heritage so I found a little Latino grocery store and grabbed things that I know she likes but also that our kids have never had. The boys were excited and she was like "where did you get that!?!?". It created a family moment last night.
I removed myself from that moment after a while and took care of things around the house I had started earlier in the day. I sat back down and she put on a show we had been watching together. She never puts on shows. She waits for me.. basically to start anything. When laundry was ready I excused myself and told her not to pause it. She didn't at first but when I was gone a while she did. I came back in the room to grab my sweater for like half a second (literally was going upstairs) and she asked me if I wanted her to rewind it and started telling me what happened. She never.. NEVER.. does that. Even on our best days. I said sure and sat down with a bit of distance between us. More laundry.. she did it AGAIN.. and.. asked me to watch another episode. I told her to start it and continued with my things and she paused it to wait this time even though I told her not to.
When we went upstairs there was some body language that she was not interested in intimacy and I did make it clear that I wasn't in a place for that. When we sat down in bed, I was more or less ignoring her and she started asking about watching something and trying to show me her FB timeline, wanting to share.. anything it seems like. We watched part of a movie before we got sleepy and when we laid down, she was the first to say goodnight, and during the night she moved to be closer to me.
This morning, she started talking about things she's been doing at work.. which includes picking her replacement. She has been very resistant to retiring from the military but I think this is helping it sink in. She's talking about how much younger these people are, how little time she has, etc. She sounded.. at ease. Every time prior, she's been on edge about this. She wants to make Chief but she hasn't studied. She stopped studying while she was at sea and hasn't even looked at the material. It's sitting on the couch where she left it for the last .. I don't even know.
She's been talking about where she wants to live post military.

Again, we've been out of town for almost 2 weeks. Being basically in the same room the whole time. We've been back 2 days, and I've already gone out to do my own thing (what I just detailed above).

One of the biggest takeaways from the book I have read this month (DR) is to look for positive changes. That has happened. I also thought I made it pretty clear that I know not to trust these changes.

IMO what is happening:
She had huge plans. She was going to make Chief, I was going to happily separate, her and OM would have a wonderful R, our kids would never know anything about what would happen, my life would quietly fade from her mind, her days would suddenly be sunshine and rainbows, and the Navy would suddenly be a warm, friendly environment that was supportive and understanding. Most of all that she would have a clean conscious.

Not a single part of this played out that way.

She didn't make Chief. I made it clear I would push a very costly drawn out divorce. OM moved away and seems to not have ANY contact with her. The kids found out and were pissed. She has realized very recently that my life and hers are so intertwined that in the best of conditions it would be extremely laborious to disconnect ourselves. She's had huge ups and downs, emotionally and physically (I'm probably about to have to take her to a series of breast appointments because of some large painful lumps). The Navy caught wind of her PA and she's been interviewed a few times and feels like everyone is watching her now and has started preparing her to move on. She has clearly been having a lot of thoughts about things and admitted to her pride being an issue and is torn.

I don't think she's sorry about what she's done, but I don't know. I am starting to see what could be moments of introspection.. maybe. She's made numerous comments about trying to fix things, our future, visiting people and places together. She's even started trying to get me to eat more because I've lost weight. She's caught herself a few times saying she likes me when I'm bigger (I used to be a gym rat, at my heaviest 200lb w/10%bf) These are all baby steps to me.

I consider this to be small progress. In the meantime, I'm going to keep pushing my GAL and DBing efforts and trying to stay positive.

For me, at this point Living as If, is about paying off debt, getting my Masters, spending time with our kids, exercising and keeping my eye on property and job market in places I'm planning on living after this plays out. Unfortunately, this means I have a plan A, B, and C as well as my own ideas as to how I'd like any of those to play out.

Thanks everyone for replying and sorry for such a long post. I wanted to be more detailed this time so thanks for reading.

Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 40
R
reason Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
R
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 40
I forgot something
One of the things in DR is mix it up/be different.
When we were in our first 6-7 years together, I was learning Spanish. I recently added that back.
When we were on the road, I turned on the TV and the Latin Grammys were on. I was watching while she was in the bathroom. (I was DBing.. sleeping in a separate bed). She came in and started getting excited, talking about how we used to listen to more Latin music.
Monday on the drive home, she mentioned that I was speaking Spanish more and I told her I stopped because I learned what I could but she didn't want to teach me.
Yesterday, she started teaching me Spanish.

Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 9,068
Likes: 12
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 9,068
Likes: 12
Well reason, I'm the last person that will try to convince you that you aren't seeing progress. I was in your shoes when my W started to come back to the marriage. Many here cautioned me, and rightfully so, to be careful and not over pursue. I'm concerned that with OM extremely unavailable that she settling for plan B. The problem with that is that eventually another plan A could come along. And with WWs they will continue looking for another OM.


M(52), W(53),D(17)
M-20, T-23 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 2,653
O
Member
Offline
Member
O
Joined: May 2018
Posts: 2,653
Reason,

I read most of your stuff and Steve and LH are giving you good advice.

I want to caution you - you need to work on your detachment. I told myself everyday for 1.5 years or so that this could be the last day I am married. You really need to stay cool, who knows why she is teaching you Spanish or being nice.

Be strong mentally and emotionally and commit to your personal growth. You really need to reinvent yourself in this process, not simply wait it out to see if she's serious.


H 34
W 29
BD 3/12/18
Divorce Busted Spring 19

It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 40
R
reason Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
R
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 40
Originally Posted by Steve85
Well reason, I'm the last person that will try to convince you that you aren't seeing progress. I was in your shoes when my W started to come back to the marriage. Many here cautioned me, and rightfully so, to be careful and not over pursue. I'm concerned that with OM extremely unavailable that she settling for plan B. The problem with that is that eventually another plan A could come along. And with WWs they will continue looking for another OM.


This has crossed my mind repeatedly.
She does continue talking about buying a house and "us" and "we" and she's talking about things we're going to do together and not do (as in we would never buy one of those again). I can't tell if it's a habit or what at this point. We agreed to stop talking about buying a house or the future. I haven't brought it up outside of discussing divorce or planning specific family things or medical stuff that's unavoidable. She keeps going back to those talks. I just kind of nod and tell her it's nice or whatever, but I am not having actual conversations about the future and I don't want to even think about buying a house until this has resolved one way or another.

Last night was a series of her coming to me with things. I came home from work feeling like I was getting a cold. I was just going to go take a hot shower and lay down but she was about to take the boys to run some errands. She really wanted me to go with them and she had no problem driving (she NEVER drives). The boys went into a music store and we sat in the car and she started talking about the things that made her feel like our marriage had failed. I just listened. I did offer some of "my side" here and there but it was mostly just replies to things she was saying or asking. She talked about not knowing who she was. Not having a sense of identity, forgetting her culture (Hispanic food, music, etc).

She made a few more comments through the evening about things I like, our upcoming anniversary. We bought new bed sheets, etc and she kept asking if I liked them etc. Then in the evening she said she didn't want to go back to work (Navy), in fact she was tired of working. This is a huge change. She's been embracing the military in the past few months and very gung ho.

Later in the evening, she told me she felt guilty spending time with me. Like she was cheating on OM. She mentioned that she couldn't feel the way she wanted to. I asked what that meant and she didn't want to elaborate but that she was conflicted. I didn't want to push that. She was in tears.


My observations
I don't know if it's a MLC but honestly, this seems like things I've read that follow replay behavior. However.. whatever it IS.. I know it doesn't seem like I'm detaching or anything. I'm doing everything I can to create boundaries, buffers, etc. I am failing at a lot of the suggestions. I know it. I am also playing it by ear too though. What I am seeing, is my W is confused, afraid, torn. She doesn't have a long term vision.. of any kind, with anyone (me, OM, Navy, etc). She's trying to appeal to me in some ways. She has a guilt thing going on and probably withdrawal from OM. She's realizing that the fake identity she started to create herself based on OM is not some part of herself that she lost touch with (hip hop vs her lost latin roots). She IS starting to think about the future and realizing how complicated it is going to be. She is starting to see me as a provider and a companion.. and she's opening up to me.


All of that said.. I am still doing my own thing. I've started updating my wardrobe.. not as a vanity thing.. a lot of my clothes are 5 years old, many 10+.. it just needs to be done. I still have all the other stuff for my GAL coming up. It's not been long since my last update tbh. Frankly, I don't feel well at the moment. I think it's a cold or flu.. I don't think it's Covid.. My boss does want me to get tested so, I will take that trip in a bit.

Otherwise.. Thanks for reading all of this and offering advice

Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 40
R
reason Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
R
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 40
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Reason,

I read most of your stuff and Steve and LH are giving you good advice.

I want to caution you - you need to work on your detachment. I told myself everyday for 1.5 years or so that this could be the last day I am married. You really need to stay cool, who knows why she is teaching you Spanish or being nice.

Be strong mentally and emotionally and commit to your personal growth. You really need to reinvent yourself in this process, not simply wait it out to see if she's serious.


You're right. I know it probably seems like I'm contradicting them a lot but I really am taking their advice to heart. I'm not trying to be argumentative so much as conversational but the internet has a way of ruining that concept.

I can't do the thing where I dwell on it being the last day of marriage. For me that breeds depression. I've already been down that rabbit hole. However, I am applying that concept with more positive messaging. New day, endless possibilities, and focus on living life. I am halfway miserable with this cold or whatever but I have been having a lot of fun otherwise over these last few weeks. Yes, my W has been part of that for a big chunk but I've been living "AS IF" and I have separated my thought process.

Detachment: (bomb was dropped Oct 21-2020)
For me, detachment hasn't been easy. I couldn't stop thinking about the idea of "our marriage ending". Anything and everything that was involved in that concept was in my brain 24/7 from Oct until mid Nov. That's about when I started my idea of just trying to rebuild as friends.. and that allowed me to be around her without crying or having anxiety attacks. I was a wreck.
Early Dec I had started reading articles about DB and other advice. I was still controlling her e-mails, following her location on GPS, checking up on her, etc. It was bad. I was wanting to meet her for lunch all the time, buy her things.
A week or two into Dec I think is when I was really trying to ramp up what I was reading here. She was at sea about this time and I had been trying to dial down my emails but when I set firm rules for myself it got way easier. When she got back from sea I set really firm boundaries about what I would and wouldn't tolerate. I gave up her emails and don't really look at her GPS anymore.
Around Christmas I told her she wasn't going to have it both ways. Started making plans for her to stay elsewhere and that she needed to pick a lane, with rebuild or divorce being the options.
These are examples of what I did right. I could fill a page with what I've done wrong.

GAL:
Oct 22 Put in job applications (don't have great work history). Rearranged the house, spent more time with kids.
Nov - I had locked in a job and reading self help. Started working on my wardrobe. Got set up with Dr
Dec - Started work, exercise, scheduled Lasik, enrolled in my Master's, visited family. Read DR
Jan - Visited family, reading a book Start Where You Are. Found some cool stores/restaurants. Learning Spanish
I could be doing more. I am probably forgetting things. I should also mention, that in this I let go of old "lifestyle" things from years ago that aren't really a part of my identity any more. Hobbies mostly but it dominated our house.



I think I'm making progress. I start class early Feb and have Lasik surgery this Friday. W is still confusing. Future of M is uncertain. I feel more confident. I'm sleeping better. I'm eating and exercising. While I am committed to trying to salvage M, I have realized that it may not be possible and have a plan b and a plan c. I don't feel despair. I do feel waves of doubt, uncertainty, anxiety, loneliness. I was angry for a while and I hurt. I don't know that I've let the idea of betrayal really enter my mind directly. More.. this thing or that thing happened, deal with them as specific symptoms but don't attach a connotation of betrayal. I've finally been able to move my focus off of W and M. It was stuck there like a broken record and it was paralyzing.
I don't know if our M is on the path to recovery, but I do feel like I am. Getting the record "un-stuck" was the biggest step for that process.

Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 9,068
Likes: 12
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 9,068
Likes: 12

Originally Posted by reason
Originally Posted by Steve85
Well reason, I'm the last person that will try to convince you that you aren't seeing progress. I was in your shoes when my W started to come back to the marriage. Many here cautioned me, and rightfully so, to be careful and not over pursue. I'm concerned that with OM extremely unavailable that she settling for plan B. The problem with that is that eventually another plan A could come along. And with WWs they will continue looking for another OM.


This has crossed my mind repeatedly.
She does continue talking about buying a house and "us" and "we" and she's talking about things we're going to do together and not do (as in we would never buy one of those again). I can't tell if it's a habit or what at this point. We agreed to stop talking about buying a house or the future. I haven't brought it up outside of discussing divorce or planning specific family things or medical stuff that's unavoidable. She keeps going back to those talks. I just kind of nod and tell her it's nice or whatever, but I am not having actual conversations about the future and I don't want to even think about buying a house until this has resolved one way or another.

Last night was a series of her coming to me with things. I came home from work feeling like I was getting a cold. I was just going to go take a hot shower and lay down but she was about to take the boys to run some errands. She really wanted me to go with them and she had no problem driving (she NEVER drives). The boys went into a music store and we sat in the car and she started talking about the things that made her feel like our marriage had failed. I just listened. I did offer some of "my side" here and there but it was mostly just replies to things she was saying or asking. She talked about not knowing who she was. Not having a sense of identity, forgetting her culture (Hispanic food, music, etc).

She made a few more comments through the evening about things I like, our upcoming anniversary. We bought new bed sheets, etc and she kept asking if I liked them etc. Then in the evening she said she didn't want to go back to work (Navy), in fact she was tired of working. This is a huge change. She's been embracing the military in the past few months and very gung ho.

Later in the evening, she told me she felt guilty spending time with me. Like she was cheating on OM. She mentioned that she couldn't feel the way she wanted to. I asked what that meant and she didn't want to elaborate but that she was conflicted. I didn't want to push that. She was in tears.


My observations
I don't know if it's a MLC but honestly, this seems like things I've read that follow replay behavior. However.. whatever it IS.. I know it doesn't seem like I'm detaching or anything. I'm doing everything I can to create boundaries, buffers, etc. I am failing at a lot of the suggestions. I know it. I am also playing it by ear too though. What I am seeing, is my W is confused, afraid, torn. She doesn't have a long term vision.. of any kind, with anyone (me, OM, Navy, etc). She's trying to appeal to me in some ways. She has a guilt thing going on and probably withdrawal from OM. She's realizing that the fake identity she started to create herself based on OM is not some part of herself that she lost touch with (hip hop vs her lost latin roots). She IS starting to think about the future and realizing how complicated it is going to be. She is starting to see me as a provider and a companion.. and she's opening up to me.


All of that said.. I am still doing my own thing. I've started updating my wardrobe.. not as a vanity thing.. a lot of my clothes are 5 years old, many 10+.. it just needs to be done. I still have all the other stuff for my GAL coming up. It's not been long since my last update tbh. Frankly, I don't feel well at the moment. I think it's a cold or flu.. I don't think it's Covid.. My boss does want me to get tested so, I will take that trip in a bit.

Otherwise.. Thanks for reading all of this and offering advice


Good to hear from you reason.

So this is all pretty standard WW fare. The mixed messages, talking about future, using we and us, yet saying she feels like she is cheating on OM with you (ridiculous!), etc. WWs, as I explained before, want their cake and eat it too. Then the stuff about not knowing who she is, etc. Whether it is MLC induced or not (remember, those going through an MLC do not see it as a crisis, but as an awakening, so do yourself a favor and never use that term with her), she is wayward and you should be reading all of sandi's writings here to understand how to deal with her. sandi's input in my sitch and her writings here on the board were invaluable to me and my sitch. You should seek out any and all of her writings here and study them. I kept her 37 rules on my phone so I could refer to them in interacting with my own WW, I recommend that you get intimately familiar with her 37 rules and apply them.

And trying to make sense of what she is saying right now is a fool's game. As you rightfully point out, she has no idea what she wants right now! So how could you possibly know? This is why we say to believe NOTHING she says. Everything you wrote here is more proof to me that since her plan A (OM) is not available, then she needs to make sure her plan B (you) are firmly in place. Yet she is keeping her options open as well.

Remember reason, you should be avoiding R talks like the plague. Certainly do not initiate them, and if she does, you listen and validate her feelings. No more giving your side, it doesn't matter anyway. Truth and reality is not something that matters to her right now. So trying to share truth and reality with her likely will just frustrate her. The best thing you can do is to listen, validate, and then make an excuse at your earliest convenience to end the conversation. R talks will get you no where right now.

I like the updating the wardrobe! Something that men do very little of over time and it makes you look sloppy and unattractive. Keep GAL (as long as the COVID test comes back negative). Focus on yourself. Remove the focus from her. And work on detachment, it really is the closest thing to a magic bullet in these sitches. Note, it ISN'T a magic bullet to fix your MR, but it is a magic bullet to get you to a healthier place in your own head. Having your emotions and reactions tied to another human-being is never a good thing, even to a S! (Look up self-differentiation in marriage.)


M(52), W(53),D(17)
M-20, T-23 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 40
R
reason Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
R
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 40
Steve - As always, your insight is appreciated and helpful.

GAL update. I am still working at the base gym but I got a call this morning for an interview with Siemens this Friday!
If I get this, it's almost 2x the pay, a stable schedule, no weekends, and work from home to start b/c of the pandemic.
Wish me luck!

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 3,750
Likes: 16
C
Member
Online
Member
C
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 3,750
Likes: 16
Good luck, reason!



Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 9,068
Likes: 12
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 9,068
Likes: 12
Originally Posted by reason
Steve - As always, your insight is appreciated and helpful.

GAL update. I am still working at the base gym but I got a call this morning for an interview with Siemens this Friday!
If I get this, it's almost 2x the pay, a stable schedule, no weekends, and work from home to start b/c of the pandemic.
Wish me luck!


Awesome! I'll say a prayer that you get this job.


M(52), W(53),D(17)
M-20, T-23 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017
Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Page 4 of 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Moderated by  Cadet, job, Virginia 

Link Copied to Clipboard