I think working on your #2 goal-- empathy-- might really help you in a lot of ways, and I think stretching your empathy muscles will also have a positive impact on pretty much every other one of your 180s ... And I will freely share with you that I am among those offended by some of the things you've said.
OK, May, I'll take you up on your offer. Why don't you start, and tell me what you are offended by about me.
Steve, I reflected on this in the shower and I withdraw my comment above. It's not funny, it's alarming. Here we have a forum where everyone is baring their soul, and trolls would be very destructive. So ... do your due diligence and let me know what I can do to convince you that I am genuine.
I wouldn't worry too much about that. When do you think the next time you will interact with her will be? Do you still want to save the marriage or do you think you are ready to move on?
As far as GAL, what are your plans this weekend? It must be hard with Covid restrictions. I was out watching live music and interacting with anyone and everyone. Did you nail down the Xmas schedule?
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
I wouldn't worry too much about that. When do you think the next time you will interact with her will be? Do you still want to save the marriage or do you think you are ready to move on?
As far as GAL, what are your plans this weekend? It must be hard with Covid restrictions. I was out watching live music and interacting with anyone and everyone. Did you nail down the Xmas schedule?
R2C, thanks for inquiring.
I do not expect to interact with her in the near future, except indirectly. She only wants to communicate via email and through her divorce attorney. There is a deposition that was recently delayed until mid-January, I expect she will be on the zoom connection next month although not showing her face and saying nothing.
Saving the marriage ... well, I was desperate to save it until about January this past year. But she made it clear she did not want to consider such. Many, many people (before I found DB in August) told me to move on, move on, and stop hoping beyond hope about the marriage. So I suppose my mechanical answer to you is no. Yet, if she texted me tomorrow, and said she wanted to talk finally, and told me she was reconsidering the divorce, I would be shocked and not know how to react.
It would not be automatic, "yes of course let's get back together." I've been working on myself, and am happy with my movement, but I have no idea if she's been doing the same. I have no idea if WAWs spend time during that first year working on themselves .. or maybe just cheering that they are single again! I found one non-DB site making recommendations to women who left husbands, and it most definitely didn't suggest any 180s ... it mentioned GAL to be sure but mostly about enjoying a woman's newfound freedom!
I've read Michelle's DB book and know that sometimes the detach part of DB is the last-ditch effort to turn things around. Well, I most definitely detached back then and haven't heard a peep from her except the most basic stuff (clothing and household items).
The marriage could not be saved, at this stage, without us both softening our hearts and being open about our 180s. Meaning, I would not get back together under any circumstances. There really were three things she could have done; first would be "Tom I'm thinking divorce, we need to do some serious work or I'm through!" That would have been a couple years ago, and I would have moved heaven and earth to keep her. Second, she could have asked for a trial separation; that would have been harder to swallow but I would have waited as long as she needed, and done whatever was necessary, to ensure we reconciled after 6 months or a year. Third, is the action she took. I've told others that the option 3 is like Humpty Dumpty, can you really put him back together again once he's broken? I don't know ... of course the answer is never say never but the pain I've been through -- that we've both been through -- is so searing.
There's another thing Michelle said that doesn't get talked about much here on the forum; I've mentioned it before without a lot of replies. She said that in situations like mine, the man is brought down so low, that he is finally driven to change things he never would have considered doing before. Just like my 180s mentioned a couple posts ago. She said she had seen it in her practice. Sometimes it's not too late, and the marriage makes it. Other times the WAW just won't give the husband a chance, period, and the marriage dissolves, but the poor fellow makes a fantastic second husband to someone else. That's my hope now. I do not want to spend the rest of my life alone. But even more than that, I do not want to ever be divorced a second time. Steve's statistics, that 50-60% of 2nd marriages end in a divorce, terrifies me.
Plans for the weekend are usually pretty modest. My kids are home for the holidays but they are busy on their own a lot. I generally walk the dogs, do my exercise, handle house chores, and call or FT some friends. I read a lot too. There is a brewery nearby that I stroll over to to just kill time and maybe meet some folks. My state is undergoing some renewed covid restrictions so even my brewery might be closed to outdoor gatherings for now. About once a month I have a friend over for a barbecue, but not this weekend. Covid makes the entire GAL pretty hard except for things you do on your own. There are a couple lively spots in down for dancing and social gathering, and social connection always is part of GAL at least for me, yet those are not available now.
There's another thing Michelle said that doesn't get talked about much here on the forum; I've mentioned it before without a lot of replies. She said that in situations like mine, the man is brought down so low, that he is finally driven to change things he never would have considered doing before. Just like my 180s mentioned a couple posts ago. She said she had seen it in her practice. Sometimes it's not too late, and the marriage makes it. Other times the WAW just won't give the husband a chance, period, and the marriage dissolves, but the poor fellow makes a fantastic second husband to someone else. That's my hope now. I do not want to spend the rest of my life alone. But even more than that, I do not want to ever be divorced a second time. Steve's statistics, that 50-60% of 2nd marriages end in a divorce, terrifies me.
This is well stated. However, I think the reason that second marriages (and third and fourth) divorce rates continue to climb is that most people do not put the work in to change themselves for the better. We are seeing a spat of that on this site right now. Where LBSs that struggle with GAL and detachment, turn around and jump right into another R with someone new. When that happens they are really setting themselves up for a future BD, and the divorce stats for 2nd marriages and beyond bear that out.
If people would take the time to learn from their mistakes, correct them, and move forward, they still may not save their first MR, but they will certainly set themselves up for the potential for a successful second marriage. What Michelle says is dead on accurate....when the LBS does the work required they will make a fantastic spouse for someone.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I think working on your #2 goal-- empathy-- might really help you in a lot of ways, and I think stretching your empathy muscles will also have a positive impact on pretty much every other one of your 180s ... And I will freely share with you that I am among those offended by some of the things you've said.
OK, May, I'll take you up on your offer. Why don't you start, and tell me what you are offended by about me.
hi Tom,
Sure. Though I'm not doing this to get into a debate about whether or not it was truly offensive or I'm overreacting and screaming at you, or something along those lines. Also, I am not offended at YOU, I'm offended at some of the things you've said... there is a difference there. I hope you can just listen and understand that I was offended by your words. Here is one example, on 1hedlite's thread:
Originally Posted by tom_h
Without complaining or expecting to be acknowledged for it, change your appearance, behavior, and attitude. Start dressing really well around the house, better than just your normal baggies or sweats. Wear perfume, do your hair nicely. [Stay-at-home moms tend to let things go.] Spend time making more elaborate meals. Pick up after him without complaining. Avoid the usual traps you have that lead to complaining and bickering. Stop talking about sex, and stop making overtures toward sex. Give him more of the sweet MTM kisses that you mentioned above (MTM = Mary Tyler Moore kisses, the kind of chaste sweet wifely kisses that you saw on the Dick Van Dyke Show). If you have daily or weekly routines, keep them up but maintain a positive attitude.
He will notice, of course. What you want him to finally do is, after a week or two, ask you "why are you so different?" Then you give him the truth. You love him and you didn't think you were honoring him, as a man, husband and father enough. So you decided to improve yourself a bit. And it's been fun, and I'm thrilled you noticed, you tell him.
I found this to be one of the most abhorrent and sexist things I've read on these boards (and I've read a lot). Stay at home moms tend to let things go? Honoring him as a man, husband and father enough? I had a visceral response to reading this.
Also, "let themselves go" in and of itself is offensive-- the idea that women need to live up to some standard, to be pretty and fit and dress nicely-- why? As long as they're healthy and happy, who cares? And while I don't know a ton of SAHMs, the ones I'm thinking of right now are far fitter than I am, and better dressers too.
Then, your response to Scout:
Originally Posted by tom_h
Scout, I touched a nerve and I didn't mean to set you off.
is dismissive and covertly sexist. It comes across as "whoa whoa whoa, don't get all emotional!" and plays into the idea that women are overly emotional, that she can't control herself. These kind of comments aren't far from the "it must be that time of the month" kind of comments. Maybe you didn't mean to come across that way. But you should know that comments like that make you sound sexist.
Also, the other two quotes LH called you out on as being sexist-- the "tasting of the wares" one, and the female sex drive being strongest when she wants a man or a child with a man-- are sexist and I was offended when I read both of them, though I chose not to comment. (It didn't seem worth it.) "Tasting of the wares" objectifies women, and the sex drive thing is ignorant and plays into the idea that women are out to entrap a H.
And, by the way... hearing these "quotes" from someone else does NOT absolve you of any responsibility when you repeat them yourself! That is a ridiculous excuse. It doesn't matter where you heard a sexist remark. You stated them yourself and you own them now. You can't pass off responsibility after the fact because you didn't think it up on your own. It is like repeating a sexist or a racist joke. Not okay.
So there are a few times when I felt offended by remarks you made. To me, they came across as sexist. Maybe you didn't mean them that way... okay, then great! An opportunity to improve your communication skills and edit sexist comments out of your repertoire so that folks no longer imagine you to be sexist.
Best, May
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I know I am not supposed to be posting here but I do have one question. WTF is a Mary Tyler Moore kiss and how is it different then a Carol Brady kiss?
I know I am not supposed to be posting here but I do have one question. WTF is a Mary Tyler Moore kiss and how is it different then a Carol Brady kiss?
Again, sorry for the hijack.
The same. I'm old enough to remember seeing both on TV.
