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I feel like I'm the only one here asking for a little sympathy for this woman, and I'm not even a fan-- she may very well be the sociopath you're all making her out to be.


I wouldn't go that far, to say she's a sociopath. Maybe this story touches your heart in a way it doesn't me. I don't have a lot of compassion for a modern 26 yr old flight attendant, (who was not a virgin when she met Wolf, and if memory serves me right, started sleeping him right away)....... and yet, she still didn't take precaution to protect herself. Not when they started dating, and not when she moved in with him. How much sense does that make? This isn't the 40's or 50's when girls were jumping off bridges b/c they got pregnant. They didn't have BC pills and wasn't passing out free condoms, like it is today. So, yes, I am suspicious of a woman who pretends to be one way while she's trying to snag the guy, and then gets pregnant and shows a different side and pressurizes him to marry her immediately. And yes, I feel she was trying to snag him all this time. I'm not putting all the blame of getting pregnant on her, b/c neither of them took steps in preventing it.......but I'm saying in this day & time, why would a modern woman not protect herself from pregnancy if she's going to have sex? If it had been an one time slip up, I might feel more compassion. If she had been taking BC pills, and still got pregnant, then I might have more compassion, but I just don't get why a woman with an exciting career would intentionally have unprotected sex for a continuous period of time. I think she had her sights set on marrying Wolf.

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And let me say that I lived with my H before we were married and was not at all embarrassed about that-- in fact, I thought it was a must before getting engaged. However, I would have been hugely freaked out to be pregnant and unmarried (and I'm not religious at all).


Why would you have freaked if you were already living with the man? I mean, would it have been due to finances and the responsibility of being a single mom? If I'm understanding you correctly, you had no qualms about living together outside of marriage. I guess it's difficult for me to understand how it would be a necessity to live together before even becoming engaged, but pregnancy would bring a different moral code into the relationship. And if it's not based on morals, then what is it?

According to Wolf, she said she would be too embarrassed to be pregnant and not married. Why be embarrassed after you get pregnant, if you don't care what other people think about your life style or choices? I think maybe you are saying something else, but IDK for certain. Is it about morals? Does it change when a pregnancy shows up? I get the feeling Wolf isn't concerned about the moral side or how it looks to other people. My intentions were to point out to Wolf that he should not be pressured into marrying her, due to the pregnancy. Take responsibility and be in the child's life, yes, but don't get married if he doesn't love her. IMHO, there are big red flags waving in their relationship.

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I don't know a single couple who got married before they moved in together, but that's just me.


My H and I were virgins on our wedding night. I was very young, and had never even seen a picture of a naked man, and had certainly never heard of oral sex (which is getting off the subject), but that's how it was. I've known many, many people who fell in love and waited until their wedding night to have sex. People grow up with different views & opinions. I just wanted you to know, there really have been people who got married without living together first, or even having sex. smile My grandparents had never kissed before their wedding ceremony, and I remember asking her what if he had been a bad kisser, and she said it would not have mattered b/c she loved him. So, I measure how as a teenager I thought about how strange my grandparents were for never kissing each other before the wedding......and today with how people can't imagine marrying someone without first having sex with them.


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hi Sandi,

(Sorry Wolf to hijack)

Originally Posted by Sandi
Why would you have freaked if you were already living with the man? I mean, would it have been due to finances and the responsibility of being a single mom? If I'm understanding you correctly, you had no qualms about living together outside of marriage. I guess it's difficult for me to understand how it would be a necessity to live together before even becoming engaged, but pregnancy would bring a different moral code into the relationship. And if it's not based on morals, then what is it?

I guess it is a moral thing for me. Again, I'm not religious, but I had never seen divorce as an option and have only slowly come around to it from constant pressure on this board, which is weird as a "divorce busting" board but that is neither here nor there. I feel strongly about giving children, if you choose to have them, the best possible environment and for me, that would mean parents who are married to each other, to the extent that is under your control. I know plenty of people who have kids together and aren't married. That is their choice and I don't judge. It just isn't what I had always imagined for my own life.

I was always very, very careful about birth control and I guess had I gotten pregnant with my H when we lived together it wouldn't have been the end of the world, but I would have assumed we would still get married. We moved in together with the explicit understanding that it was a step in the path towards marriage. I guess I do think I would have been embarrassed. And no judgement again either way. I just want to point out that in my world, it makes sense to me that she could be embarrassed about being pregnant and unmarried yet not embarrassed about living together unmarried. I get that things are different in different places and there are different expectations, and I have no idea where Wolf lives or what people generally do where he lives. I'm just sharing my own experience to the extent it is helpful for people to see other POVs. And thank you for sharing your background too! I love that on this board we are able to connect with people who may be very far apart in a lot of ways but all still are very human and share that core human experience.

And again, totally agreed on the birth control and the craziness of not taking any precautions. That honestly blows my mind and yes, gives me suspicion that something else might be going on there.

All that being said... I just feel bad for her. No matter how you get to that place, whether she was trying to trap Wolf into marriage or just being dumb, if you're 26, unmarried, pregnant, no family or support network, no job (I guess until just recently), I can imagine being really scared. And Wolf is EQUALLY responsible for this baby and yet we're all telling him to kick her out while she's carrying his child. It just is feeling to me like she is bearing a disproportionate percentage of the burden of their joint responsibility.

And also I COMPLETELY agree he should not feel pressured into getting married, especially given his path and her giant red flags. We're all on the same page here. I just hope he can find a solution where she feels supported during this difficult time rather than fearful and completely stressed out. (All those stress hormones are not good for the baby.)


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8/19 BD #2 Long-distance EA
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Originally Posted by may22
Originally Posted by Steve85
"She would be destitute without me" to "she is a flight attendant" doesn't jive. We were giving you advice based on her being destitute. And here she is able-bodied and gainfully employed. See how that could change the advice? You received some advice that was very empathetic with her plight, when the reality wasn't quite what you made it out to be.

Just to note... many many flight attendants are furloughed or out of a job right now. I have a friend who is a flight attendant with a ton of seniority-- been flying for 20 plus years. She's furloughed and depressed. Her husband is still employed so they aren't going hungry, but if she was completely dependent on her own earnings-- she'd be in trouble. And this is a person who a year ago was jetting off to international destinations and bringing friends, getting facials in Korea and shopping in Hong Kong because... well, why not? That was her job and her lifestyle, which has all now come crashing down. And, many of the jobs that flight attendant skills transfer to easily (customer facing retail, hotels, restaurants, etc.) are also all unavailable right now with tons of people out of work in those industries as well.

Don't be so quick to judge. I feel like I'm the only one here asking for a little sympathy for this woman, and I'm not even a fan-- she may very well be the sociopath you're all making her out to be. But she also just could be a young woman in a really difficult position who doesn't really have the tools to deal with her current situation. If she's only 26 she's probably low on the totem pole with her airline and is out of work. Probably out of unemployment now too. I live in a place that is heavily dependent on tourism and many, many families are really hurting and can't pay rent. The lines for food distribution have stretched hours onto the highway.

And let me say that I lived with my H before we were married and was not at all embarrassed about that-- in fact, I thought it was a must before getting engaged. However, I would have been hugely freaked out to be pregnant and unmarried (and I'm not religious at all). Now, it seems totally crazy to me to have unprotected sex if I didn't want a kid, so I am 100% on board with all of you thinking both Wolf and his GF played with fire and now they are facing the lifelong consequences of some pretty dumb decisions. And yes, I absolutely question the thought process of anyone who would do that, so she very well may be a sociopath and trying to get her hooks into Wolf. I just want to point out that there isn't necessarily a cognitive distortion between being okay with living together unmarried and being okay with being pregnant and unmarried. I don't know a single couple who got married before they moved in together, but that's just me.


But she any of this changes anything I've said. My advice to WM stands. I can't believe the amount of time I'm suddenly spending on this forum responding to other posters rather than the OP of the thread. May, give your advice to WM. No need to respond directly to me. You think he should do something different then tell him. Peace to you.


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Originally Posted by Steve85
May, give your advice to WM. No need to respond directly to me. You think he should do something different then tell him. Peace to you.

OK-- Wolf, I'm not trying to tell you what to do. I simply felt that you were getting an avalanche of pressure to kick your GF out yesterday and was attempting to show support for you if you choose not to take that path. I know you're in a tough place and so is she. I hope you can work it out in some way, living together or not, where you're both in an OK place raising a child together and you feel confident that you've done the right thing by your child and by his/her mother down the line. I felt like everyone here was making her out to be a monster and you were stuck defending her and your choices, which doesn't really help you to think clearly about the future.

Know that everyone here is posting because they care about you and want to share some of their hard-earned wisdom with you, so that you might not experience some of the difficulties others have experienced. And, you're not obliged to take anyone's advice here, even if they tell it to you a hundred times. Sort through it all and make decisions that fit best with your own situation and moral code, not anyone else's.

For me, my guiding light through all of this has been that I want to look back on this time in five or ten years and have no regrets, especially as it has to do with things that affect my children. Perhaps taking the long view, understanding where you want to be in five years or ten years with your own life and your relationships with your kids, can help take some of the pressure off of the little day-to-day decisions and help you focus on your priorities and core values. (As an aside, if you haven't gone through an exercise to identify your core values, this might not be a bad time to do so-- it might help you in your decision making process to ensure your choices align with your values.)


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M:13 T:17, D8 & D11
4/19 BD #1 ILYB
8/19 BD #2 Long-distance EA
12/19 BD #3 Actually 2 year PA
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Thanks for responding, May. I try to learn from others on the board, and that's why I'm trying to understand your thinking.

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I just want to point out that in my world, it makes sense to me that she could be embarrassed about being pregnant and unmarried yet not embarrassed about living together unmarried.


See, I have trouble making that connection. How could you be embarrassed if you feel you've done nothing wrong? If living with a man outside of marriage aligns with your morals & principles, why would pregnancy suddenly change it? I find it hard to understand how you could see divorce as never an option, but enter into a marriage b/c of a pregnancy. Perhaps this is where you are coming from when you post to Wolf. Where as I am thinking of how terrible it would be to spend a life in an unhappy, unloving MR......out of being pressured to marry for any other reason but love. We obviously see it with different viewpoints. That's okay. smile I think your words, "in my world" are key for all of us. Many of us do come from different worlds. In my world, your explanation makes no logical sense to me. We can respectfully agree to disagree, and have no hard feelings. Wolfe can decide for himself.

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And thank you for sharing your background too! I love that on this board we are able to connect with people who may be very far apart in a lot of ways but all still are very human and share that core human experience.



I agree! I don't often respond directly to another poster who is advising a newcomer. I really wanted to understand what you were saying about the pregnancy/embarrassment issue, and that's why I posted to you, giving my own thoughts......of course. wink

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Again, I'm not religious, but I had never seen divorce as an option and have only slowly come around to it from constant pressure on this board, which is weird as a "divorce busting"


I have been thinking about this just recently, how some people may feel a bit pressured. I don't think it's intended, but in trying to help someone through their pain, it may be perceived as pressuring. I do believe we all speak from a place of experience, directly or indirectly. It does bother me, however, to know you have felt pressured by the board. Some of us speak rather bluntly, and it may sound as if we are being harsh, or maybe superimposing our views on someone else. However, what does it accomplish if the other person can't freely make their decisions based on the information they are given? It's their life, and we are suppose to be a support group. Sometimes, we might need to be reminded, lest we get carried away with trying to get them to see our own views.

((hugs))


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Originally Posted by may22
Just to note... many many flight attendants are furloughed or out of a job right now. I have a friend who is a flight attendant with a ton of seniority-- been flying for 20 plus years. She's furloughed and depressed. Her husband is still employed so they aren't going hungry, but if she was completely dependent on her own earnings-- she'd be in trouble. And this is a person who a year ago was jetting off to international destinations and bringing friends, getting facials in Korea and shopping in Hong Kong because... well, why not? That was her job and her lifestyle, which has all now come crashing down. And, many of the jobs that flight attendant skills transfer to easily (customer facing retail, hotels, restaurants, etc.) are also all unavailable right now with tons of people out of work in those industries as well.


As somebody who works for a major airline, I can attest to this. Over 50% of our employees took LOAs for 1 month-1 year. Then, nearly 40% of our employees took the out or early retirement. The ones of us left are working 30 hours/week until things get back to normal. The airlines are taking a massive hit, and a flight attendant just might be destitute at the moment.

I'm not sure what advice to give Wolfman. I'll just wish him the best. What he and his GF are going through is not easy.

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There appears to be a lot of analysis of the GF's motives but should that really matter in what the best decision for Wolfman is?

In my opinion, there are two things that matter. The first is what does Wolfman want? Does he want to live together with his GF or not? I feel that is a personal decision to be made by him alone based on his preferences and his moral convictions. . The second is are there legal consequences to his decision especially long term ones?

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I think the only
Time on this board is when it is pressured to divorced when the situation is harmful. And harmful could mean more than just physical abuse. There are emotionally and mentally harmful relationship.


MAny posters come here with the ď what do I do?!!l mindset. Truth is, no one can tell anyone what to do. We can say what we would do, or what we would suggest you should do, but beyond that, in the end, only the person on the other side knows what they should do and hopefully they come here and are armed with the tools and information to make .
decisions .

Itís very difficult to guide Wolfman for many reasons. One being that his story changes day by day. Itís all over the place, everyone is all
Over the place. And he always wants us to tell us what to do. Canít do that either. He needs to decide if he wants a life with this woman, if she is who she says she is, etc. we canít tell him. Its more complicated than most because he is in a situation where his girlfriend is Jekyll and Hyde according to this accounts and he has also lost his born daughter and is losing his born son. Itís a lot to take into account. We all know what we would have done prior to her getting pregnant when he was losing his kids. He didnít do it and not heís in a real pickle.

The best hope is the best outcome for his born children and his baby. While I completely donít agree that what is best for the kids is two married parents no matter what the circumstances are ( IMHO, this could be one of the most harmful things in many circumstances if you ask adult kids) he has to come to a decision that will consider his born kids that are from
His divorce and his unborn child from his unwed girlfriend. Whatever his choices are should be at the top priority of both. Because kids arenít puppies, if they go to a new home you donít just move on a get new ones to replace them.

I certainly donít envy anyone
Involved in this situation

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My take on this is that WM lack of confidence in his decissions, or inability to make a firm decission has a major impact on the route his life is taking.

IMO, this is something he needs to take very seriously.. It is this lack of making a decission that see's him go around in circles on a daily basis, and the reason why his posts are so up, down and sideways..

WM,

You have stated that you want a family - that is your focus. You really need to take a long hard look at what that entails. I dont think the "family" life you a hoping for will fall into place any time soon.

Also, women like a confident man - they like a man who knows what he wants and makes / stands by decissions. I dont think im speaking out of turn when i say that a lack of confidence and decission making is often seen as a weekness by women.. And the jackel and hyde / cluster B type women love a week man - somebody they can manipulate ! - food for thought with your current GF.


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Now Mr Brightside.. coming out of my cage, and doing just fine.
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Wow. Thank you everyone for your input. I have no idea where to begin. There was so many great point brought up by so many of you. First, I just want to say thank you all for taking time out of your busy schedules to help a confused man out. It means so much to me!!! Second, from the beginning I should have just said what would you guys do. I completely understand why so many of you get frustrated with me. I ask what to do and then donít. I should have asked what your opinions were. I try to see everyoneís perspective and then make the best decision for me and the people around me. One of the things that I have confused you all is my up and down. That is part of my indecisiveness. The other part that has been confusing is my life for a long tome was very busy, and I wasnít on here for a long time. So, I want sharing all the good and everything about my GF and my relationship. So, when I can back I painted a small picture of our relationship. Rightfully so, you all were speaking from just that part of our relationship, which I take responsibility for making that mistake. I should have talked about the entire relationship not just the rough patch we were in. Some of you brought up about me being a teacher and how would I treat a student or respond if they were behaving like me. I will tell you all what I tell them. Itís my job to give you the most amount of facts and information as I can. Itís your job to make an informed decision, I canít make it for you only you can make the final decision.

I am going to have to write a a few posts, there was so much great information and point of views in all of your posts.

One part that I want to clear up first. I apologize for making it seem like my GF did nothing. She was a flight attendant for 5 years flying all around the world. COVID his so she was furloughed, so she went out and found another job close to where we lived. Then that shut down due to COVID. From there she went on unemployment. With the unemployment and the extra COVID money she was getting it didnít make sense for her to go back to work. If she could she would go back to flying but her company is not flying in the US at this current time. I am also the one who asked her to move in with me, not her. She was very hesitant about doing that. I convinced her. We were together for 9 months before she moved in. Back in May or June I was just so crazy about her. We talked about getting engaged by the end of the summer. So in her mind why protect herself if we are talking about getting engaged/married. I felt the same. Then July and August came and so much $hit hit the fan, with my ex, children, mom and dad. It took a huge toll on our relationship.

Gotta run more to come. I hope this helps a little to see where we come from:


M:42 XW:41
T:19 M: 15
D:13 S:10
BD: 8/10/18
Moved out: 8/18
Moved in: 9/18/18
Moved out: 4/22/19
D papers signed 11/4/19
D final 3/18/20
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