Courage - part 2

[AndrewP]

Well - making the last thread last any amount of time was a bust
Courage
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2908472&page=1

Now on to the next page

[DonH]

I know people are not going to agree but S is just as much as a victim. Both sides misrepresented themselves in the early stages of the relationship.

Not sure why you’d think we would not agree with you LH, unless you’re used to that being the case. (that was just too good to resist) but fact of the matter is, it’s nearly always both sides. It certainly does take two. Andrew is very set in his ways. He seems to have rushed into this just as much as S has. I can see why she’d think she was played. Again, it’s rarely just one persons fault - it really does take two.

Ginger is correct, as she often is, the steps outlined are for marriage - not dating. Heck some just ghost their “partner” of many months. Others send a break up text after a year - as Ginger can attest to. I’m not saying those things are any more right or good than trying to leave no stone unturned. You do everything you can for a partner of 10 or 20 years that you at one time were very compatible with and got along so well with because the two of you were clearly a match. It’s not the same with a short, rushed, sitch that probably should have never gotten this far in the first place. You and S were never a match. Given what you now know and what you’ve seen over the past month plus, can you really see yourself living this way for another year, let alone 10? My money is still firmly on, this situation continues until S ends it.

[kml]

Your 3 steps to doing the right thing apply to a marriage. But a dating relationship? Dating is recognizing differences that DO NOT WORK before marriage. There is absolutely nothing wrong with recognizing those and then doing the right thing for yourself

I agree here. You keep treating this like a marriage and a vow and it is not. That’s why we have marriage ceremonies , to clearly demarcate when the commitment crosses that line.

I know people are not going to agree but S is just as much as a victim. Both sides misrepresented themselves in the early stages of the relationship.

I disagree, LH19. Andrew presented himself exactly as he was. A rescuer, who was easily manipulated, who lived an organized life in the house that he owns (and she stayed in plenty), who was supporting her in the idea of and expected her to start her business.

Sure, there was a misunderstanding, in that he thought the mess in her apartment was due to her kids and she might have thought he was ok with her hoarding. But she also told Andrew that she liked his neat home, then, like most hoarders, quickly filled her new home up with her stuff.

[LH19]

I see it is S finally thought she met someone who understood her and accepted her as she was warts and all. After all he proposed and moved her in really quick when Andy clearly knew who she was. Heck his own son warned him. Sorry K I completely disagree.

[AndrewP]

It's done. S was not surprised. It's going to take time to disentangle.

[exquisitetobe]

((( Andrew)))

[DonH]

Im sure there has to be more to this story. I mean it didn’t come out of nowhere from our point of view but clearly something abrupt or at least unplanned had to happen to go from step 2 and 8 on a 1-10 scale of investment to “done”. Hopefully you’ll fill us in. In the meantime, please know that this is for the best. It’s not a close call, you are doing the right thing. Don’t second guess yourself now. You have done nothing (to S) to be ashamed of. Don’t beat yourself up or take on any internal blame. You are not a bad guy here Andrew.

[kml]

(((((Hug)))))) I’m sure that was difficult. But also the right thing.

[Dawn70]

(((((Andrew)))))

I know this is difficult but I hope, in time, you come to see that it was the right decision to take care of yourself. You are NOT the bad guy here and you DID do the right thing.

[bttrfly]

good. honesty is best, difficult or painful as it may be. now the healing can begin.

[Ginger1]

Sounds like something may have been the last straw. I know this is hard, but really for the best.

[DnJ]

(((Andrew)))

[AndrewP]

Battening down the hatches here. There's a (real) storm blowing in. High winds at 100 km/hr, rain. Sitting here at my desk, I can see some drawings made by my kids blowing in the drafts of this drafty old house. I'm going to have to put some tape around the door I think.

First things first.

Yet another person chimed in with some passion about the fact that I am best off without S. My barber. I've known him for over 30 years and he's cut my hair long and short and listened to my stories and everyone else's. One of the many heads that has come under his clippers was S's ex-boyfriend. Someone who he doesn't necessarily think a lot of but whose stories of S he had also heard and had in part relayed to me.

He agreed with the definition of S as a predator. Someone who will bounce from man to man and who is a survivor. Not that she's a particularly bad person, just that with the hand that life has dealt her, it's how she's survived.

One other thing and I know that for me that trivial things can trigger big decisions - was Christmas. As I was running errands I was thinking about sending out Christmas cards and how I didn't want to send them from S and I considering the doubts on if we would be a couple by the time they were received. The other part - and this I know that some don't agree with - is my resentment that S insisted on being involved on a token level with sending gifts to my own children.

One of the hills that I am standing on is the fact that my relationship with my adult children is mine alone. While a partner can be invited in and form their own relationships, I won't have my "Daditude" diluted.

----

So when I got home a lot had been stirring around. S was sitting on the couch looking sad and so I sat with her and put my arm around her and we started talking. It wasn't my intention to drop the bomb right then. I mentioned that I was having a very hard time with the homework assigned by the counselor and asked if she had any thoughts. She said that she would look around for some books that might help. She then asked about her loan and if I was pushing for her to have it come out of her account in case we split so that she wouldn't default on it. I said that I was mainly pushing for that to simplify things for her but that yes, if we were to split that I thought that that would be a good idea then too.

I then said that I was really struggling still trying to see the path towards us being a happy couple and that I just couldn't see it. S asked if that meant that we should end things, I took a breath and the opening given and said yes.

Even though I was disappointed, I wasn't surprised that she never asked if there was something more / different that she could do to help make things work. She's undoubtedly been waiting for this.

We held each other and cried a bit. She asked and I told her that I neither needed her to move out right away nor to even sleep elsewhere. That I still loved her. She asked about sex and I said that I had no objection but no expectation. She asked if we could just live apart and then date each other. I said that we would have to see - I'm pretty sure this was the state with her former partner for the past 7 years.

I told her that she was welcome to keep her ring as a reminder of someone who loved her.

She said that she'll tell her kids and knew that they would rally around.

S is stressed about getting an apartment and paying her loan. I don't think she's realized that the loan "should" be immaterial given the legacy that she's going to be getting. She's not sure where she will be living because she actually has quite a few choices. She could move down to the city where she grew up and has a friend group. She really has no close local friends (red flag!) She could also move to the city where her daughter is an hour away which would be probably in my mind her best choice. She could stay around here but there really isn't anything tying her to here. She mused about moving out to the west coast or Australia - lots and lots of options.

She did say that she had promised her kids one last Christmas in the old family home so I expect that she'll move into there until the New Year. She's going to be assembling things from there for an estate sale and will be taking her stuff from here that is still surplus and adding that in too. I expect that S18 will stay here until housing is all sorted out. S18 is going to take this fairly hard I think.

I've told my kids (and yes will update my legacy documents). They are of course very supportive. S26 actually came by to put on his snow tires and so I told him in person. It made it a bit awkward when he saw S. I messaged D28. This is not at all a surprise to either of them.

S is off to her Dad's house with a van-load of stuff, S13, his hamster and the dog this afternoon. She'll probably be there most of the week which was more or less the original plan anyway.

I told her that "we" could find the money for additional counseling and that I will also be seeking out therapy as there were obviously unresolved issues that contributed to my inability to be a good partner for her. I also said that I would be supportive of her renting a truck a few times to move things out rather than her trying to do it in her van and that the car and utility trailer were also available. I suggested that I expected that it wouldn't be until spring-time before all of her stuff was out. Some things like the trampoline may or may not find a home.

-----

I will admit that I now feel a feeling of "lightness" knowing that there is an off-ramp and that we are agreed on taking it. This ended in a way that I'm less unhappy with than it might have been. There is respect and consideration. Yes - I will undoubtedly get hosed in a few ways with both expenses and with getting her to actually remove her stuff.

As I joked to S - I don't have any intention of having a replacement so I don't "need" her to get her stuff out quickly to make room for someone else. But I will be firm that it does all go.

I'm looking forward to my new/old life. I expect that S26 will start coming to Sunday supper every week on his way to his poker game and probably crash here from time to time after. It will be nice to see more of him so I won't be too isolated. Perhaps in the new year I'll look at adopting a cat - certainly not while there are other pets under the roof still.

I'll tell my friends over the next few days and start work on the dis-entangling. Finding boxes etc too will be a thing. I'll probably need to buy a new stove, kitchen table and dining room table. Small stuff. I know that I can quickly pull the plug on anything financial and will leave that in place for the present.

The "bad" stress is starting to life. The stress of things I have no control over. The good stress of things to look forward to, organize and plan is coming on. There will still be lots of stress and also anger I'm sure that will come my way. S may or may not push for us to "try again" but I really have my doubts on that even if it is her pattern.

I feel bad that I misled and led S on. It could be argued that both sides were at fault but I'm owning this. It was me that agreed to go out with her. It was me that was complicit in accepting her into my life. It was me that proposed and talked about a life together.

Going to be tough but I can now see the other side again.

Thanks everyone - your support, advice and love has been greatly appreciated. It's good to not go through this alone.

[bttrfly]

I'm glad you jumped through the window when you saw an opening, and found that it was not a 20 story drop, just a soft landing on the lawn.

Don't joke about replacements coming or not. Just a female friend's tip, ok?

I'm relieved for you, so can only imagine how this feels to you.

[job]

Andrew,

I am sorry that this relationship has come to an end, but it is a very wise decision and one that will be far better for you. S has known for quite some time that this relationship wasn't working for either of you. Andrew, you did the right thing in opening the door and walking through it and just being very honest w/her.

In time, you will feel much better health wise and you can then reclaim your home and continue to work on your projects. Who knows, maybe at some point LIz and Amy may return, but a new kitten would be great too.

As for S's S18, he may opt to stay a while w/you. He appears to have bonded w/you. I think the kids need stability and they sure haven't gotten it in a while.

As S's loan...she will need to figure out how to pay that down or off. If she's going to be getting something from her father's estate, then she needs to prioritize how she spends the funds and not be out there purchasing things that she doesn't need.

Hopefully, she will not be like your son's friend and leave stuff w/you as if you are operating a storage facility. The new year is around the corner and it will be time to clean out the house of all things that do not belong there and start fresh. Your life's book will be opening to a new chapter and one that may have many surprises along the way. But....do not move another "married and/or separated" woman in there. You've had two and both of them had complaints about your home, etc. Now is the time to actually learn to live alone since your son has his own place. It's time to learn about yourself and what Andrew needs to be happy.

[kml]

Before you get a new kitten, I’d have a talk with your son about whether he’s happy living where he is. Only because if he wanted to come back, you would have those two cats and adding a new one might bring complications. If he’s good where he is, then go for it.

As for the furniture - don’t rush to shop yet. I have the feeling S will claim the “nicer” stuff her dad’s house has and may end up leaving some of all of that with you anyway.

And please don’t imply you’ll be accommodating storing her stuff!!!!! Instead you will be helpful getting it MoVED to her storage unit.

[kml]

And please don’t feel like the bad guy. You really gave her every chance to step up to the plate. She had a great opportunity to live a stable life with a good, kind, responsible man. All it would have taken is some personal responsibility ( and, let’s be honest, dealing with her hoarding which is both the biggest obstacle and the hardest to overcome). Your only mistake was being too willing to bend to her pressure and getting yourself into this situation in the first place when you clearly didn’t know her well enough.

[AndrewP]

Thanks everyone. I still feel like a heel and probably will for quite some time.

S left around 2:00 today taking S13 and the dog with her. S13 asked if I would look after his hamster but that got passed to S18. The van was loaded up to the gunwales with lots of stuff, especially baking and cooking things. The fact that S just "presumed" that I would look after the hamster was a reminder of her sense of entitlement that will be a factor as we disentangle.

S is struggling - the metaphorical rug has been pulled out from under her and she's having to yet again deal with the consequences of that. I'm positive that she's not told the boys about what is going on. I hope she's told her daughters. Since that time she carefully keeps her phone locked and close to her.

What I've offered is that she doesn't need a new place before the New Year which gives her 6 weeks to make those decisions. Given the logistics in winter-time and the volume of stuff involved I told her that she has until spring-time to clear it out. I expect that it will be done in a rush at the last minute.

Since she has little access to her legacy and because I'm not that much of a jerk I told her that she still has access to the "family" banking although I'm sure she knows that I'll be watching it closely - one of her complaints during counseling. I need to contact the counselor and cancel the follow-up appointment and let her know that if S needs a couple of sessions that funding can be found for that. I also need to book my own therapy appointments.

I can feel similar problems to what I had previously, especially with my ex-wife on wanting to contact her, to check to see how she's doing, to let her know what I've been up to. I know that that's all a bad idea. A relationship is like a drug - withdrawal is tough.

I'm not sure when she'll be back - she said maybe next weekend, maybe next week. She joked that she's going to give her brother a heart attack (complex history between those two) by telling him that she's moving into the house. I do expect her to be there regularly although she did comment that the resale value would be hurt by having it filled with kids and pets so she will be here as well which will be awkward. The best thing is the sort of clean break I had with B where she was gone the next day and her stuff was out within a week - but this is a very different situation.

----

I'm enjoying a beer as a reward to myself for installing those cabinets in the laundry room. I'm not sure what I'll use them for but there's no sense having them and not putting them up. Fiddly work because in this old house the studs weren't where the people who designed the cabinets expected them to be and a fair amount of shimming was needed. They look nice. I've never worked with adjustable hinges before and whoever invented them was having a very clever day.

I resisted sending a picture to S and instead sent it to my daughter.

When assembling the cabinets in the living room I was necessarily close to the carpet. I'm thinking that I'll need to get rid of it. The urine smell was overwhelming. I expect that the dog has been depositing in there and nobody has noticed. I don't necessarily blame the dog - I know it to be poorly trained.

Well - time to make dinner. Meatloaf tonight with mashed potatoes. I did pick myself up a nice Chianti which will probably accompany me to the tub for a soak before bed. Early morning tomorrow and much math to do to figure out the schedule. The world it appears keeps turning.

The storm keeps raging outside. I need to do an inspection tomorrow. I suspect that there is some tin that needs to be nailed down again on the back porch. The wind and rain have been fierce compared to our usual. We even had hail. Down here in the valley we're protected somewhat.

Thanks again everyone.

[AndrewP]

As an aside, S18 has suddenly developed an interest in healthy food made from fresh ingredients. He's looking forward to leftover meatloaf for the next couple of days.

He put specific things on the grocery list that weren't conveniences foods this week.

If nothing else, changing his attitude towards food is a very positive thing. He eats little probably as a side effect of his meds but always has lots of whatever I cook. And he's learning to cook the same things himself.

We had a nice Sunday Supper again with the two of us even though my lectures on different wine varietals was probably a bit - ahem - dry.

[LH19]

Uuuuummm for the record I would not classify meatloaf as healthy food.

[AndrewP]

Uuuuummm for the record I would not classify meatloaf as healthy food.

LOL. Be careful or we'll turn this into a recipe thread.

I'm rather proud of my meatloaf recipe which is a mix of my daughter's and my own inspirations.

High in fibre too.

[kml]

I told her that she still has access to the "family" banking although I'm sure she knows that I'll be watching it closely

Please don’t keep any more money in that account than you’re prepared to lose.

[bttrfly]

^^^^ what kml said

[AndrewP]

Please don’t keep any more money in that account than you’re prepared to lose.

I don't have a lot of cash generally on hand - and I would doubt that S would do what my ex did and drain 50% of the savings account to take an OM to Roatan.

Rough morning - the reality is sinking in. Minor hang-over as well but it was a very nice bottle of Chianti and I had a nice soak in the tub. We had a heck of a storm last night. I had a quick walk around the property and there's no damage so that's good. Neighbours have lost sheds and there were quite a lot of trees down.

I'm struggling with conflicting emotions - wanting to call S and tell her it was all a mistake and that we should try harder. Knowing that that is a hugely bad idea and that she would probably agree with that.

Like I will do here, I was reading back to last year when B and I split to see how I was processing my emotions then and to think about the differences and came across this nugget.

Criteria for new woman:
1) Must like cats
2) Must be fiscally responsible and hopefully self-sufficient
3) Good in bed
4) Kind
5) Reasonably tidy (asking for someone on your level there may be too much)
6) Interested in ideas and the world

I have one more to add to kml's list: Self starter and can follow through on what you say you will do.

Sheesh - did I ever miss out on that with S. She's pretty much 1 for 7 on that list although even #3 was pretty infrequent as such things can go.

This is the absolute first time in my life that I've been the dumper and not the dumpee. In some ways it feels even more crappy because it is (and I know people will disagree) all my fault and responsibility. I also feel a sense of obligation to "fix" things but really I'm doing all I can by staying the heck out of the way.

I've contacted the couples counselor to let her know that we won't be needing the next appointment and that S may be wanting to see her and that a couple of sessions could be covered financially. I also contacted the local family health team where I got counseling and they gave me a name of a psychologist that I've reached out to. I have insurance for either a psychologist or social worker so hopefully they have the right too-sets.

The house feels weird - both crowded and empty. I have a lot to process and it will take time (and probably a lot of posts here) especially since S's departure may well be dragged out through until the New Year. I've told my immediate family and a couple of friends about this. I need to be sure that she is the one that tells the boys which she probably won't do for a bit yet. Given that I know her pattern of using former partners as storage I know that I need to be firm on that as soon as she has a place to put it or the funding available to rent a storage space. There's no good pushing on that at present though - she has some huge decisions to make first about where she's going to live for starters.

For me I have to at least for now resist the urge to start packing up her stuff.

Blech.

[kml]

I'm struggling with conflicting emotions - wanting to call S and tell her it was all a mistake and that we should try harder. Knowing that that is a hugely bad idea and that she would probably agree with that.

Yes it is a HUGELY bad idea! And you've already noted the sense of relief that you have - that tells you everything it should.

The question you need to ask yourself is WHY would you feel like doing that in the first place? Is it just because you feel guilty for being the dumpER? Is it because you're afraid to be alone? Is it because once all the negatives are out of sight you forget about them???

Oh - and I was pretty right-on with that list, wasn't I? Keep that around to vet future dates. And ask yourself why you ignored all those thing. Was it because you don't think you're WORTH having someone with those attributes? Or does someone who has their act together not make you feel sufficiently needed? Or is it just a bad pattern repeating because it feels familiar?? These would be good questions to explore with a therapist.

[Dawn70]

You are totally right...I disgree that it is all your fault and responsibility. You need to work on this in counseling, Andrew, seriously. This is NOT a healthy attitude. S is not a child and you did not kidnap her or force her to move in and have a relationship with you. She was a willing participant (willing to let you take care of her responsibilities while footing the bill, but not willing to put in the real work to have a sustainable relationship and meet your needs). You talked to her about issues that were bothering you on numerous occasions, which is more than many of us got from our WAS and even agreed to seek counseling with her to give it your best shot. But, Andrew, at what point are you going to open your eyes and realize that YOU were the only one giving it your best shot? I don't doubt that S had love for you, but I highly doubt that she was completely altruistic in her motivation to pursue and snag you. She saw you as a stable provider and learned quickly that she could manipulate you to get her way and what she wanted so you were a great mark for her. I also don't doubt that now that you have delivered your message that you will hear some unsavory things about yourself around town, just like she did with previous relationships. She will paint herself as the victim and you as the villain. Don't go along with her and paint yourself as the villain too. You are NOT the villain!

Like the others said, do NOT offer her storage space or you will never be shed of her and do NOT leave a bunch of money at her access, even if you did caution her you'd be watching it. Are you familiar with that phrase about the fox guarding the hen house?????

I'm glad you ended it and while I get that it will take a bit of time to get it sorted out and get her actually out of the house, do not let her linger or tarry anymore than necessary or you will get sucked back in. Just like with B, you are already starting to want to reach out with her. This is your pattern, Andrew...do NOT do it! H3ll, post something on here or send me a private message if you need to talk to someone, but do NOT reach out to S. If you do, she'll see it as getting her foot back in the door and she will come at you with guns blazing. I feel for her s18, but a part of me disagrees with what others have said about allowing him to stay on even after she goes. I think it is great that he has bonded to you and that he has a semblance of normalcy with you that he's never had before. That is awesome! My fear in him staying though, is that it will be yet another avenue of maintaining contact with S. I get that he is 18 so legally an adult. I also get that S is a very uninvolved parent, but I bet good money that if S18 stays on with you, S will become suddenly very interested in parenting him as a means of having a direct route to have contact with you. I know that all sounds very conspiratorial and all, but that is just how I see it all going down in my mind. The sooner you can get her out, get her off your accounts and remove her stuff from your house, the better it is going to be for everyone. S is going to land on her feet, but if you continue to allow her to have access to your bank account, she is going to do so at your expense.

I must, again, say how sorry I am you are hurting and going through all this. I'm also sorry if my above comments sound harsh. I just have a hard time with women like S who take advantage of people. It is discouraging and disheartening to watch. You deserve so much better!

[AndrewP]

In my own defense ...

Criteria for new woman:
1) Must like cats
- very pet friendly as long as she doesn't have to do anything to take care of them
2) Must be fiscally responsible and hopefully self-sufficient
- plucky single mom making do who had a part-time job and various side-hustles. An "entrepreneur"
3) Good in bed
- and enthusiastic aaannndd then kids and back pain blah de blah de blah
4) Kind
- An "every-Mom" who took care of others and took in kids who were struggling.
5) Reasonably tidy (asking for someone on your level there may be too much)
- Tidy in dress and I put down the mess originally to kids sabotaging her. I did notice her van was very messy (didn't realize "how" messy for a while but put that down to kids too.
6) Interested in ideas and the world
- Seemed to be although I am an economics, politics and history nerd so I don't judge

I have one more to add to kml's list: Self starter and can follow through on what you say you will do.
- plucky single mom

The question you need to ask yourself is WHY would you feel like doing that in the first place? Is it just because you feel guilty for being the dumpER? Is it because you're afraid to be alone? Is it because once all the negatives are out of sight you forget about them???

Second thoughts are what we do It is easier to overlook the negatives when they are out of sight. She's not been here regularly for some weeks now and I think "well - it couldn't have been "that bad"" - I took pictures and it was indeed that bad as far as the physical environment goes. I read old posts and - yep - the emotional environment wasn't good either.

I do worry about when she's here and we're sharing a bed - but that's only for a few hours because I'm fast asleep when she gets in and visa-versa when I get up. And at 56 I like to think that my head isn't directly attached to my gonads not that I have any expectation of them getting warmed up.

You are totally right...I disgree that it is all your fault and responsibility. You need to work on this in counseling, Andrew, seriously. This is NOT a healthy attitude. S is not a child and you did not kidnap her or force her to move in and have a relationship with you. She was a willing participant

This was the biggest hurdle I had to overcome in this. Knowing that financially she'll be fine in the medium term helps a lot. S has made sure that I know that she'll face hardship upon leaving and how traumatic it will be for the boys. I expect that her kids won't be looking too kindly on having to move her yet again either.

I had a look at available apartments etc in the places where she could be moving to and there are some decent options that are within spitting distance of what she was paying before. And if she pays off that loan then she will be much further ahead because before she was paying not only rent but also car payments every 2 weeks, credit card payments and money to her former partner. (the payment on the loan that got rid of those is less).

But, Andrew, at what point are you going to open your eyes and realize that YOU were the only one giving it your best shot? I don't doubt that S had love for you, but I highly doubt that she was completely altruistic in her motivation to pursue and snag you. She saw you as a stable provider and learned quickly that she could manipulate you to get her way and what she wanted so you were a great mark for her. I also don't doubt that now that you have delivered your message that you will hear some unsavory things about yourself around town, just like she did with previous relationships. She will paint herself as the victim and you as the villain. Don't go along with her and paint yourself as the villain too. You are NOT the villain!

Yep - I do accept my part in this but I do certainly agree that she didn't step up as much and in the ways that I needed her to. I expected a partner, a team player, a supportive cheer-leader who would add to my life. I was already busy enough with housework and such - I didn't need to end up being staff. I'm sure she would have been happy if I didn't do what I did do, but there's no way I could live the way that I saw in her apartment. I foolishly hoped that a fresh environment and a fresh start would mean that she could maintain it. I saw the state of her apartment as an overwhelming obstacle to her with her kids sabotaging her.

Like the others said, do NOT offer her storage space or you will never be shed of her and do NOT leave a bunch of money at her access, even if you did caution her you'd be watching it. Are you familiar with that phrase about the fox guarding the hen house?????

I hope she'll get the stuff sooner rather than later but spring is the most likely scenario. She won't part with any of it including the furniture I'm sure and will need to rent a storage space. Her access to cash is presently limited though. And it's only been a couple of days so she's had little time to figure things out. I expect her to have a more solid plan when she comes home perhaps this weekend or early next week.

I feel for her s18, but a part of me disagrees with what others have said about allowing him to stay on even after she goes.

This would only be a very temporary measure - the truth of the matter is that while he's a decent kid, he's not my kid. He also has a boat-load of issues that I don't want to have any responsibility for. The fact that he's doing better without his mother around notwithstanding. He's even pooping better now that he's eating much less pre-packaged food. TMI I'm sure - I asked though how his "digestion" is doing as he has commented on how he's trying harder to eat healthy - something I've pestered and joked at him about.

To me it's horrible how those kids had been fed. Easier to feed them what they ask for and will eat but heck, they liked when I cooked and ate that up without complaint. It was a surprise that S really does hate cooking and while she goes on about being a "baker" - that's more talk than action too.

You deserve so much better!

I just want to find me again.

-------

Since I'm rambling on here right now anyway, some might remember my active dislike for her D19's boyfriend. A person I describe as a "taker". S was perfectly fine with him living under her roof, eating her food, banging her daughter (yep). He had - so I was told - an overly protective mother - who for some reason never visited nor in anyway contributed to his upkeep. I thought that S was being taken advantage of and called her out on it multiple times. It was only well after she moved in here and that I saw how accepting she was of not doing anything and having everyone else do it for her that I realized that she was fine with that behaviour because it was normalized for her.

I have a prior experience with a "taker" under my roof and it was not fun. My son had a friend who "was having trouble at home" and so he offered to share his room. The kid moved right in, didn't contribute in any way and had no plans on how to turn things around and it turned out, got along fine with his Mom who seemed to be happy he was here. I ended up putting my foot down and told my son that his friend either needed to get help to start a life on his own or get out. The kid got out, moved home with his mother and they started a business together A few years later he was dating 20S, treating her like staff and gave her an STD because he was screwing around.

The kid just gave me that same creepy vibe that the boyfriend does. Didn't interact with anyone else in the house, hid away all the time, just takes things and uses them without considering that they might be someone else's. S doesn't have the same vibe though.

I've talked about my Dad lots and how he was taken advantage of - that is one of the things that has pushed me along too. I know his story well and saw what it did to him. He was a deeply unhappy man towards the end but was unable to break the cycle. I see a lot of him in me including parts I quite like. But having seen this from the outside allows me better to recognize it from the inside.

As an aside - and something I need to watch out for is that FSL - who is back to work full time now - is "very" interested in what is going on with my life. She's noticed me being grumpy and that S isn't around. Certainly not something to get tangled up in and she is I believe in a relationship although she's been vague about that the last few times the topic has come up.

Just got off the phone with the couples counselor we saw and she had some names for me to reach out to for counseling. We also chatted briefly about S's hoarding and other issues. I also mentioned B and how S was seemingly waiting for me to be available and hustled things along and how I needed help to not be rail-roaded again. I joked that there was a shortage of responsible middle-aged men and she laughed and said that I was a "catch". She also asked about my homework and I think I was doing it right as she was indeed trying to get me to see who I truly am at the core.

Well - back to things. Left-over meatloaf for dinner. I never sent S the usual "good morning", "lunch time - how's your day" messages and don't plan on sending a good-night. I've not heard anything from her either.

[kml]

And if she pays off that loan then she will be much further ahead

Oh Andrew - such an optimist! I truly hope she does, but sincerely doubt she will. This, after all, is a woman who couldn't understand why you would pay off your credit cards every month versus just making the minimum payment.

[kml]

Criteria for new woman:
1) Must like cats
- very pet friendly as long as she doesn't have to do anything to take care of them
2) Must be fiscally responsible and hopefully self-sufficient
- plucky single mom making do who had a part-time job and various side-hustles. An "entrepreneur"
3) Good in bed
- and enthusiastic aaannndd then kids and back pain blah de blah de blah
4) Kind
- An "every-Mom" who took care of others and took in kids who were struggling.
5) Reasonably tidy (asking for someone on your level there may be too much)
- Tidy in dress and I put down the mess originally to kids sabotaging her. I did notice her van was very messy (didn't realize "how" messy for a while but put that down to kids too.
6) Interested in ideas and the world
- Seemed to be although I am an economics, politics and history nerd so I don't judge
Originally Posted by job
I have one more to add to kml's list: Self starter and can follow through on what you say you will do.
- plucky single mom

I can see how you were misled/misinterpreted what you saw. This is the reason for taking it slow in terms of entanglement - it can take a while to find out the truth of someone you are dating.

CMM initially looked like a guy who cared about his daughters and had been burned in his divorce. He had their photos with him on his dresser, and told me many stories about his life as an involved dad when they were kids. While not completely wrong, it turns out his relationship with his daughters is so rocky that they don't speak to him. And he no longer makes any effort to reconcile with them. If I had simply been dating him and he hadn't developed cancer, I would have learned these things about him maybe 6-9 months in - and probably would have been at least enough put off that I wouldn't have chosen to live with him (not that I would have anyway most likely if he hadn't developed cancer, as I think I really prefer living on my own and just dating someone who has their own place). What I THOUGHT he was as a dad and what the TRUTH is are two very different things - and those kinds of things just take time to discover.

[AndrewP]

Found an Italian emojii for bttrfly

ლ(´ڡ`ლ)

Snowy, blowy day here today. The guys at the plant are doing some clean-up of construction waste today so they won't be too happy about that. The disposal company is by tomorrow morning. I've also run out of regular drums at the plant. I thought I had lots but 3 big orders came through and suddenly there are none. I have a reserve supply so can handle any emergency orders. Order have really dried up in the last few weeks though. We had zero bulk loads out of the section of the plant that I do the planning for last week and other orders are a lot less frequent beyond those couple of bigger specific ones. My drum order should be in late Thursday - we'll take the opportunity we have to do some maintenance and cleaning.

Still coming to terms with things and processing so if you're reading, you're stuck with that. I know that with time that the feeling of the surreal will fade. As I'm sure that most here realize, I process things by writing. It's what works for my brain so I'll probably burn through this fairly quickly too. As a certified "fixer" I have to look at things from all angles many many times before being satisfied especially if the item in question cannot be fixed.

I participate on another forum and they have also been very supportive of me and negative about S. I have to own that. The only information that anyone has gotten has come from me and I am obviously biased. Which I am upset about. I like to think that I'm generally a positive person and try to see the best in people. I know that I always tried to notice compliment the incremental improvements S was able to achieve and not notice when it slid the other way.

I still find it odd how S just accepted the fact that it's not working and never seemed to try to dig into the "why". She has shelves and shelves of relationship books so presumably this is a topic on which she is well informed. One thing I've gotten from her though and I recall my ex-wife having a similar attitude is that once I express myself on a topic that there's no further discussion possible which I'd like to believe isn't true. With S I said something lie "I can't see how we can get to the other side" - which to me is an invitation to help me look. Too late now though - the die is cast. I think it boils down to the need to make a sustained effort and to empathize. Beyond the superficial I really wanted to feel that we were "in this together" and both take ownership of making this a happy home and life. I think only the superficial was recognized and it was beyond S to deal with. Too much baggage on both sides perhaps getting in the way.

One thing that Westo said a while ago - I hunted it down - has really really stuck with me as how things "should" work.

Andrew....

I’m not S and she isn’t me, but I can honesty that if I was in a new relationship (and it’s still new) I’d try be the dream partner.

Your place would be spotless, the sex would be frequent (as it’s still new and fresh, for now ;)). I wouldn’t spend my time on the phone, I’d go to bed the same time as you and I’d want to get up early to potter about my new home.....making it mine.

In my experience, and I’m only talking about me.....if you are getting nooky once a fortnight a year into your relationship, you’ll be lucky to get it on your birthday once the ring is on her finger.

I know we’re not teenagers here with raging hormones, but come on.

You guys are not compatible. No amount of council will change that frown

I have noticed that S18 - who presumably knows nothing - while he's doing better over-all I think, the disgust and anger at his mother is pretty palpable. She was supposed to contact him every day to remind him to take care of his brother's hamster - nothing. I think that he has a lot of deep issues that will undoubtedly affect him for the rest of his life. I'm assuming he knows nothing about what is going on although he and I have talked and he knows that I'm unhappy with the state of the house and his mother's house-keeping skills so it may well not be any sort of surprise. He really would prefer to be living somewhere other than with his mother I know. When she was doing her "just dating" / reconciliation with her former partner he was essentially living on his own at the apartment for I think about 4 months according to passing comments he's made. He would have been 16. I do hope that he's not too hard on her when he finds out but he will be and there's nothing I can do about that.

As suggested I've been doing some reading and thinking about stress and coping mechanisms using some resources suggested by a friend (waves). Qi Gong which is a form of Tai Chi might be something to try. I was listening to the description of how it works and the fact that it can help channel healing energies really appeals. I know that doing something "mindless" and purely physical is good for my mental health. Ironing used to be that. It requires care and attention but not "thinking" if that makes sense. Following a structured set of movements may well be good for me. S has lots and lots of books and CDs on tai chi but I may follow my own path. I've never seen her do any sort of breathing exercise or movement which I know her son-in-law who is a massage therapist has suggested as being good for her back.

On there was a set of questionnaires - which I'm working through. This one on trust that I took just before going to sleep I think has hit the nail directly on the head.

Do You Have Problems With Trust?
********************************

Trust/Distrust

Score: 28/100

Trust/Distrust measures the degree that you trust or distrust others and their motives.

Your score indicates that you tend to have a great deal of trust in others. You tend to believe what others tell you and believe that they are likely to treat you well. You generally believe that others' motives are beneficial, for the common good, and that most people have the best interests of others at heart. You don't tend to look for hidden agendas in others.

Your ability to trust can lead to positive and genuine relationships with other people. However, naively trusting others can lead to problems in your life as well. Some people prey on those who are too trusting. Unfortunately, they are able to identify people who don't use discretion in their trust but instead tend to trust most anyone and they take advantage of those people.

Sometimes you may not want to see the signs of untrustworthy behavior in others. However, by denying or avoiding that information you are more likely to become involved in relationships where others can take advantage of you.

If this is the case for you, you may need to learn to be more discriminate when trusting others. By recognizing that not all people are trustworthy, you can begin to determine the difference. People who trust too easily often rely on what someone tells them rather than making a more objective determination. Observe behavior and don't just rely on what others tell you. Is their behavior consistent with their words? How do they treat you? How do they treat others? What does their behavior tell you about whether they are trustworthy? Such observation and willingness to see the truth about others' behavior will allow you to discriminate and determine who is truly trustworthy. As result, you are less likely to become involved in unhealthy relationships.

News has been getting out. I told 20S who I think of as a friend. She was supportive - dealing with a lot of her own issue with the sort of limited results she usually has. She is more than a bit of a train-wreck but is a nice kid. She's upset at S26 who hasn't returned any of her calls for months. S26 has said that he's not really interested in hearing from her - I just told her that he doesn't return anyone's calls including mine which is true.

My youngest brother texted me this morning having been told by his wife (he doesn't "do" computers). We chatted a bit and he suggested that he bring his big dump trailer in the spring which will probably be needed. I'll give S a bit of lee-way but also a hard deadline. Anything left after that time I can deal with as I see fit. She'll struggle with that I know.

I've not heard from S since she left. While I do have that "itch" there's really nothing I have to say nor really to share. She has her own plate over-full I'm sure. Her daughter is going in for an ostomy tomorrow to try to figure out if she is celiac or not so there will be pooping going on. Her daughter and BF still have no jobs and aren't seeming to care about that. They spent several days at S's Dad's house but it seems that the WiFi is too slow for their gaming - they are trying to become internet gamer celebrity types. Who knows - it may work. D19 is very pretty. I know nothing about how that works but it does appear to be a "thing". They'll be there for the next few days so S will have those two, S13 and 2 dogs. S I think was annoyed that I pushed her to take her dog with her as it loves barking at the squirrels in the back garden. The dog is cute and loving but is quite a lot of work which is why I never had any urge to have one. My ex-wife had a Pomeranian who was pretty fat and low maintenance especially in comparison. And certainly, absolutely never ever ever got to sleep on the bed.

Enough for now I suppose.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Dawn70]

I know your writing is a process and helps you work through things. I get it. I'm like that. If I'm really stressed about something or making a decision, I write things down. It helps me process. I even do that with my lesson plans because it helps me talk through them and see if there are any missing pieces that might negatively affect the students' grasp of the concept(s). So, having said that, I don't know if you really want comments or what, but I do know you read them, so I want to just respond to a few things that stood out in your post.

You mention that you are on another board where they have been supportive of you but negative towards S. I honestly believe that you have been honest in your portrayal of her, but I don't think you have been overly negative and the seemingly skewed negative view of S, in my mind, is more about who she is than how you have portrayed her. In my mind, as I read your posts and your descriptions, the picture I have painted in my head of S is one of a user. When you were describing her D's boyfriend as a taker yesterday I kept thinking it didn't bother S because she is the same person. Regular people don't behave that way. I don't think negative perceptions of S are your fault so much as they are her actions (or lack of actions as the case may be).

You also mention (and not for the first time) that she has a ton of self-help books so you assume she is well-informed on the topic of relationships. Come on now, Andrew....you know what assuming does, don't you? It makes an a$$ of u and me. Surely you have heard that before. For me, I think that kind of boils down to why I don't like S. Everything she does is for show. She tells you repeatedly she wants to start a business. She has a vast library of books on all sorts of topics to give the illusion that she is well read and well informed on a variety of things. She lives off the government and whoever will support her and doesn't work. She claims to have all of these health issues but doesn't seek help for them. Why wouldn't she listen to son in law about exercises to help her back if he is a massage therapist? Surely he knows what he is talking about and has received at least a modicum of training in that field. I'll tell you why....because it is ALL for show. She plays the victim, the "oh woe is me" single mom with all the kids and pets just trying to do her best in this big ole cruel world. Yet, while she has lived in and destroyed your house with her hoarding, she has squirreled away $3000 for what? She was paying a loan and a car note before you rode in on your white horse and saved her. I still don't understand where she was getting all of her money from if she wasn't working. Presumably she can't work because of her issues, but then why can't she help more around the house? Oh right, her issues. Sadly, issues that have been passed on to her children. I think I feel sorriest for S18. S13 is probably at the rebel teenager stage where a mom who is pretty absent even when she is physically present is the way to go for him (not good for him mind you, but good in his mind because he can do whatever he darn well pleases).

Everyone has baggage and everyone has issues. Some people just have more than their fair share and some people are messy with how they handle theirs. I don't mean messy as in actually messy (though in this case, the hoarding is a physical messiness), but messy in the young, hip sense of the word for someone who doesn't have their crap together. S is plenty old enough to know how the world works and to participate fully in taking care of herself and her children but she's never had to and you gave her yet another out to not have to when you came along. She saw you coming and snapped you up. I don't think S is an evil person. I'm sure she has some lovely and charming qualities or she wouldn't be able to attract the attention of men repeatedly. But, I do think, in general, she is a taker and is proficient at taking advantage of people and situations to get what she needs. Look at her kids: the oldest daughter seems to be the least affected by the chaos and seems to have a fairly regular life from your brief descriptions of her. Other daughter is "pretty" and seems to rely on that and she and her taker boyfriend don't work and couch surf to get by. Does that sound like someone else? S18 has a boat load of issues, not the least of which is an underlying loathing of his mother and who she is and I honestly can't say I blame him because it seems like, in some ways, she has crippled him to living a "normal" life. With all of her gluten issues and his other issues and she is just giving him prepackaged crap? Come on now....I'm not even a "real" mom and I know you don't feed your kids junk and expect them to flourish. It just doesn't work that way. I suspect S13 is actually the one who will suffer the most because he is really at that formative time in his life and he is allowed to run loose. I suspect that as he gets older he will run with a progressively worse crowd and he'll end up experimenting and doing a lot of things he really shouldn't be doing. But, I don't say all that to make you feel bad. These are NOT your kids! They are her kids and it is time she step up and deal with them. She needs to get over herself, get her issues under control, and be a mom to her children. She is not doing them any favors. It is sad really, but I think in ending your relationship, as difficult as it is, you have really done yourself a huge favor because you won't be saddled with dealing with everyone's issues for the rest of your life.

Oh and I agree with everything Westo said. If I was trying to win someone over, I would be on my BEST girlfriend/wife behavior and I would be cleaning til my hands were blotched from bleach stains and the house smelled like sunshine and roses and yummy baked goods. I would be sexing the guy up often and I would be doing anything and everything in my power to make darn sure he knew I loved him and cared for him and wanted to make his life easier and better. When you love and care about someone and want to make their life easier, you do not burden them with all of your crap. That is not love...that is using someone.

[Westo]

As usual, I agree with every word Dawn posts.

Dawn, you always seem to strike the right balance.

[kml]

I still find it odd how S just accepted the fact that it's not working and never seemed to try to dig into the "why".

She knows why. And she's not motivated to change that. Hoarders are VERY resistant to change and unwilling to give up their stuff - that's the disease. I'm pretty sure if you had flat out told her "the stuff goes or I do" she would have chosen to keep the stuff.

Also - an experience I think many of us have had with our WASs is that many of them lived their "best lives" with us - that is, being with us caused them to elevate their game. Maybe to be more responsible and upright than they really were. Eventually that seems to wear on many of them, and when they leave, they slide into their natural selves, the ones they were fighting to contain. Like they were always trying to fit their square peg into a round hole, and now they don't have to bother. As much as we all think you were doing the right thing by S by trying to teach her to budget etc. - she's probably more comfortable in her own chaotic life. Some people don't really want help. S certainly doesn't seem to want to change, and I don't think it's all about the hoarding either, although that's a big part.

And no, I don't think you presented her in a negative light. If anything, we had to tease out of you what was really going on. I'm not sure she's a "conscious" predator - more likely someone who has just bumbled her way through life by getting other people to pick up the tab. You gave her the benefit of the doubt about many things, but when given the opportunity to rise above her circumstances, she was a combination of unwilling and incapable. Not everyone wants rescuing - many just want enabling.

As for her S18 - you might have a conversation with him sometime about hoarding. About how it's a disease, and difficult to treat. It might help him put his childhood into some context. It doesn't excuse the rest of her bad parenting.

[kml]

Oh - and regards S18 - I don't think you ever answered this question of mine. Here in the US you can "test out" of high school by passing a high school equivalency exam. You can then attend junior college if college is your goal, or a trade school. Most employers would treat it as equivalent to a high school diploma. If S18 has enough knowledge to pass the exam it might help him get unstuck and moving forward with his own life.

[AndrewP]

Oh - and regards S18 - I don't think you ever answered this question of mine. Here in the US you can "test out" of high school by passing a high school equivalency exam. You can then attend junior college if college is your goal, or a trade school. Most employers would treat it as equivalent to a high school diploma. If S18 has enough knowledge to pass the exam it might help him get unstuck and moving forward with his own life.

He and I have talked about it. He is intending on going on to some sort of higher education program although he has no clue of what. Both his parents are university graduates and there's an "expectation".

On the other hand none of the other kids have gone on to higher education. D26 - who is the most capable of the lot travelled the world, lived in an old school bus in a commune and works as a waitress. S23 I know little of as he lives in Australia and there is little contact between him and his mother. He was a troubled kid, moved in with his older sister as a teen, went to some sort of cooking trade school and now makes pizza on the East coast of Australia. D19 got through high school with much assistance from some really capable teachers. She has a comprehension disability that affects her ability to read textbooks etc. She's an "aspiring model and actor". She did work at an auto-plant for a while.

So there's not a lot of history of academic success in front of him and add on to that his ADD, behavioural issues (got into lots of fights at school) plus high anxiety, I don't have a lot of confidence in him doing well in an unstructured post-secondary environment. His father has been essentially absent from his life and isn't a model of how a higher education can benefit people.

I've pushed that the blue-collar life can be pretty good. My own son who is plenty bright seems fairly happy driving a forklift and getting free ice-cream from time to time.

Personally I have the feeling that he'll cruise through life working minimum wage jobs plus a bit of government subsidy for his mental health issues. I also think that he continues to be at risk for suicide which I understand was a real concern two years ago. At 18 he will have the real choice on if he goes with his mother or not. His dad would love to stop paying child support for him I know.

---

Oh - and S's income has 3 sources. Substantial child support, fairly minor spousal support (both from the younger kid's dad) and the government baby bonus program which S18 has aged out of.

S is in my belief capable of holding down a decent job. Pretty good with numbers, outgoing and pleasant. Knowledgeable on a variety of topics related to food and health. She's limited herself in some ways by her very real pain issues which she seems to manage with when it matters to her and having a pack of special needs kids all of whom don't require constant supervision although S13 needs a kick in the arse to keep him moving with his online school. When we met she was supporting 3 kids plus D19's boyfriend. Now it's really just S13. And I think the odds are non-zero of his Dad taking custody.

---

Lunch over. Creamy tomato soup and grilled cheese. Favourite comfort food. S it turned out had taken ALL the cheese with her so I had to pop to the shop across the street for more. She took a "lot" of food when she left on Sunday - she may well be planning on surviving a siege. I expect some of that is just pettiness as the amount of food she would buy was a source of conflict between us.

Oh - and Dawn - please feel free to comment and "tell it like it is" - listening to the echoes inside my own head isn't productive.

[Westo]

“She took the cheese“

Well, that right there, says it all about S!

[job]

I agree totally with what Dawn and Westo have posted.

Andrew, if you need to write about what is going on in your life and in your head, then by all means do so. Some of us have to do that while others have to find other outlets to help us figure things out.

I do have to agree that before S moved into your home, she was paying rent, car loans and repaying a loan to one of her former spouses. If she could do that before, she most certainly can do it again. The problem for her is that she has gotten use to you, Andrew, being the kind hearted man that you are and paying for most, if not all of the stuff during her time there. She's lived like a queen, i.e., not having to worry about rent, utilities, groceries, etc. You were her knight that came to the rescue, hence, she's got to get back into the groove of living on her own with her two sons, as well as all of those animals and she better take that freezer that has the deceased pets in it, and all of her "stuff". I don't think she'll find another landlord that will put up with all of that mess. However, that is on her to figure that out.

Your job is to be you. Your job will be to enforce a move out date and not become a storage facility and/or the bank/ATM for her. She's had plenty of practice and knows exactly what to do.

BTW, I didn't much care for her trying to guilt you because you were calling it quits. If she cared at all about her children and you, she would have made every effort to work with you and keep the house tidy, meals on the table and cleaning up as well as going to bed at a reasonable hour and getting up before 10ish. No, she really didn't put forth much effort in the relationship, i.e., it looked more like a business deal to me and not one of love and wanting to work together.

Andrew, you are a good guy, but do not allow her manipulation from here on out to get to you. You've called it quits and do not second guess yourself.

[kml]

and she better take that freezer that has the deceased pets in it

Oh lord yes.

How much could it cost to cremate them anyway???

[AndrewP]

Therapy booked - December 8th. A bit longer of a wait than what I wanted but this counselor came highly recommended by the couples counselor and I'll probably be even more in the middle of the @#$-storm then than I am now. I'm going to do the initial appointment in person - masked and somewhat distant. I think that body language is an important part of communication. And if I'm going to have a longer term relationship with this therapist - something that is probably a good idea given how much I need to sort out, starting it well is a good idea I think.

Got the living room and hallway rugs shampooed after work. I used an enzyme that "eats" pet urine smell in the mix. Hopefully that will get the stink gone. The unit that S bought and said she is intending on using long term was barely up to the task given the pet hair involved. I gave the shampooer a good cleaning after, took it apart and removed the clogged up hair. It's well designed but would need regular maintenance to keep it in good shape. Something that I don't expect to happen.

The dining room rug also probably needs a good shampoo but there's a lot more immovable stuff in there and I'm pretty much giving up on being able to use that room until the New Year. If worse comes to worse, I get new rugs. I only have 3.

I'm figuring that I'll need a new stove as S is very attached to her's but I can probably pick up a decent one used for not too much. An old one without electronics would suit me just fine and be preferred. If she takes the kitchen and dining room tables, I can take my huge desk out of the office and put it in the kitchen. I wanted a new, smaller desk anyway. And I can manage without a fully furnished formal dining room for a while too I'm sure. I'd been intending on re-imagining how I use the house anyway.

I'm figuring that I'll try to reclaim a bit more of the house day by day knowing that there will be set-backs as S drifts in and out. The urge to get boxes and sort and organize is strong but I'm resisting for now. If she asks I will pack though - I don't want to barrier.

Still no word from S and frankly I'm not expecting one. I am hoping that by the time she comes back this weekend or early next week that she'll have a place found and a plan. I believe that the odds of that are pretty good - if her intention was to try to work on things or keep me on the hook there would have been some sign of that going back to October when this all initially came to a head. Instead there's been a steady distancing and a lack of me chasing after. The plans are all for her to make - could well be life-changing as they are much less kid dependent. Personally I'm expecting her to move close to her oldest daughter to have that support network and to be close to her grand-babies. She had been intending on doing something similar when we were first dating.

It's going to be odd when she comes back - for who knows how long but I honestly don't expect more than a day or so. Her old bed is in S13's room and there's lots of room in there for both of them if she chooses that route too which would be reasonable. I reinforced the frame when I put it together.

I can't wait to get my house back and my life back on track and know that I will need to be firm and patient - things that I am actually capable of doing Sometimes. Usually. With effort and a lot of writing and agonizing to be honest.

and she better take that freezer that has the deceased pets in it

Oh lord yes.

How much could it cost to cremate them anyway???

I'm not sure what the disposition of S18's bird bodies will be. One of the things I have as an option is to just have S take the whole freezer plus much of the contents. I had been thinking of getting rid of it anyway. I would be willing to bury the pets in a space S18 would designate as well which would probably have to wait until spring. I've been told that he has major super anxiety about it which may or may not be the case this far out. It's not for me to pass judgement on that nor deal with it.

There are a lot of things that will need to be decided by S and her family in terms of dealing with their life and possessions going forward that are right out of my hands.

[kml]

Wait - the dead bodies are in YOUR freezer? I thought that freezer belonged to her!

[bttrfly]

the emojis are not working so I have no idea what they are.

why on earth is this your fault? you were misled (I'm being kind), bullied, and preyed upon. here's your part from my vantage point: you allowed it. dig into why that was the case. dig into why you are now owning more than your side of the street. dig into why your boundaries are so fluid, and figure out how to stay in your own hula hoop.

she's lining up #8, that's why you haven't heard from her.

set up a cot for her to sleep on when she is at your place. I am absolutely serious. I don't give a rat's @$$ about her bad back. DO NOT have sex with her again if you hope to have this end sooner rather than later. Also, you're forgetting she's got $$$ coming so no, you are not putting her in a bad spot. BTW she put herself there, by forcing this relationship from the second she heard B left the building, and all the shenanigans since. She's adept at letting herself off the hook. Don't you do the same. Insist she pay the loan off so you are off the hook, or re-finance it without your co-signing.

BTW Every Single Person you've mentioned who knows S has her # but you, so don't for a second think you're going to be looked at as the bad guy here. Rather, you will be looked at as the smartest of the bunch who got out the soonest. Better to be that guy, Andrew, don't you think, than someone people will think of as a victim???

[AndrewP]

Wait - the dead bodies are in YOUR freezer? I thought that freezer belonged to her!

CONTEXT people CONTEXT ** Not ** "human" bodies. Sheesh - trying to get the Mounties at my door or what?

S had 2 small freezers that ended up in the garage full of mold. They were scrubbed out by S13 and sold in the fall. I don't know what she kept in them but they had to have things on the lids to keep them closed. Hardly anything was taken out and kept beyond the "bodies". I suspect that most of the contents ended up in the landfill - she had a "lot" of loads to the dump when she moved here and there's still lots of just plain trash that keeps surfacing.

I had an empty slightly larger freezer with no mold that was already in the cellar. We've been using it. It's currently about 1/2 full including the good sized wooden box with the wee birdies in it.

As an aside if she wants that freezer she can have it. I had been considering getting rid of it last year but because "I had lots of room" didn't bother. By the time she moves I hope to have what I would want out of it able to fit in the fridge freezer. S26 and I lived with just that for 4 years just fine and it will be just me in the New Year. S18 may be here for another month beyond that but not more than that even if it means that his rabbits need to be re-homed

the emojis are not working so I have no idea what they are.

Yeah - they worked in post preview. Ah well - no big.

why on earth is this your fault? you were misled (I'm being kind), bullied, and preyed upon. here's your part from my vantage point: you allowed it. dig into why that was the case. dig into why you are now owning more than your side of the street. dig into why your boundaries are so fluid, and figure out how to stay in your own hula hoop.

Yeah - I've been doing some reading and filling out personality surveys. I think that it all comes down to me being too trusting. I still own my part in this because I did go along with it. S asked numerous times "are you sure" and I lacked the fortitude to say no when I probably should have. Just because the train was going down the tracks doesn't keep me blameless for not jumping off.

Certainly something to work on in therapy which I'm actually looking forward to.

she's lining up #8, that's why you haven't heard from her.

The odds are non-zero. On the other hand she also has a crap-load of stuff to deal with including her Dad's estate, her daughter's medical appointments, S13's school all while not being functional for more than half the day when places are open. Going to give her the benefit of the doubt on that one while at the same time not being surprised if one does show up. Relationship overlaps have happened in the past. Perhaps harder to do at her age and with a pandemic shutdown but we do know that there are all sorts of people out there. She is still married though as well and while that guy has had girlfriends may well be happy to have her back on his terms. She had kept him dangling for all these years after-all.

Despite protestations to the contrary on how keen she is on sex I'm pretty sure that she's not going to try to jump my bones when she passes through. I'm willing to take my chances with the sleeping arrangements even though yes - potentially a bad idea. S13 is tiny and keeps similar hours to her and has her fairly nice big mattress so I wouldn't be surprised if she sleeps in there "to not disturb me". When she comes back next week I sort of expect S13 to go back to his Dad's leaving that room empty. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

BTW Every Single Person you've mentioned who knows S has her # but you, so don't for a second think you're going to be looked at as the bad guy here.

Not really worried about that. I've grown quite a bit in the last 5 years and worry even less about what others think. My side of the street is clean as is now the living rug although is still does have an eau-du-chatton derrier. I do think that many people buy into S's narrative of being a plucky single mom and holistic reader / healer - even those that have known her for a while. I'm pretty sure she believes it herself. They know her to be scatter-brained and slightly unpredictable which is perceived as "whacky". The lies we tell ourselves are the most profound. And while I don't think you and others here are wrong in agreeing with my own perception of S - there may be more depth that I just can't find - not that I am looking for it. There's too much that just shows that it's a superficial veneer appropriated in part from her mother. She had a lot of admiration for her mother who was a strong and vital personality from everything I can gather.

For finances I don't know when funds will be released to her for her own use. She can access her Dad's finances to pay his bills and the life insurance should pay out in the next few weeks. The pensions etc may have to wait for probate along with the house. She still has her regular income along with our belief that she's accumulated a bit on the side which may or may not be true. What I think of as "missing funds" may have been paying for S18's therapy, other bills who who knows what. But she's got 6 more weeks with few expenses so should be able to raise rent money.

I'm not familiar with the complications of being dead other than the email that accidentally came to me a year after my ex-wife's parents died identifying the final payout from the estate. I expect the house won't be sold until at least January as the kids have asked to have one last Christmas there.

In other news I noticed last night that S had left her engagement ring on her bedside table when she left. Certainly a very very clear sign that she has no expectation of things changing. I will admit to a sense of relief.

[LH19]

I've grown quite a bit in the last 5 years and worry even less about what others think. My side of the street is clean as is now the living rug although is still does have an eau-du-chatton derrier.

So I will challenge you Andy P where have you grown? Seems like you are making the same mistakes.

[AndrewP]

I've grown quite a bit in the last 5 years and worry even less about what others think. My side of the street is clean as is now the living rug although is still does have an eau-du-chatton derrier.

So I will challenge you Andy P where have you grown? Seems like you are making the same mistakes.

LOL - you didn't know me 4 1/2 years ago when I was a blubbering mess. Grown a lot since then, discovered who I am outside of the definition within a relationship - and yes - still making mistakes. I probably always will - I accidentally asked for a delivery of containers last month this morning. Fortunately the supplier figured it out and they are arriving on Friday just after lunch.

[kml]

In other news I noticed last night that S had left her engagement ring on her bedside table when she left. Certainly a very very clear sign that she has no expectation of things changing. I will admit to a sense of relief.

If it has any resale value, keep it to sell and pay for moving costs to get her out of your home when the time comes.

[kml]

As per the discussion on my thread:

What would you do if you had all the time and money in the world? How would you live if you knew you had only five to 10 years left? And what would you most regret if you died tomorrow?"

Maybe reframe it:

How would you feel if you knew she had already been seeing her not-quite-ex husband? How would you feel if you knew that she would definitely land on her feet financially? How quickly would you move her stuff out of your house and get on with traveling etc. if you knew you only had 5 years to live?

[AndrewP]

If it has any resale value, keep it to sell and pay for moving costs to get her out of your home when the time comes.

I doubt that it would have much value. It's a pretty ring - an emerald solitaire with a couple of small diamonds on yellow gold. I've told her that she can keep it - I know she's kept rings from her past as well. Given the mark-down in used jewelry I would think it's worth about $100 to resell if I was lucky. And then on top of that there's the bad ju-ju of a ring used in a failed relationship. S is quite attached to stuff as we know and I'm sure her D19 would scoop it up if offered.

Maybe reframe it:

How would you feel if you knew she had already been seeing her not-quite-ex husband? How would you feel if you knew that she would definitely land on her feet financially? How quickly would you move her stuff out of your house and get on with traveling etc. if you knew you only had 5 years to live?

I would be sad and hurt if I knew that she was already overlapping the relationship. Plus there's that "ick" factor. On the other hand, given the slowness of the divorce he's in no rush either it would seem - there's a lot to that story that I will never know and I'm reasonably happy about that. Despite what she said about them splitting 7 years ago, there's just too much evidence to the contrary. I am choosing to trust that she has been faithful from when we were first in a committed relationship up until last Saturday when it ended.

I do know that she will land on her feet financially eventually. I have no idea how long it will take for her to get access to funds though and from what I've read it could be a year from now for that. Officially it's 15 days though - so I don't know.
I think insurance pays out fairly quickly and that will give her liquidity that would more than cover any relocation expense.

The reality though is that it's out of my hands and not my problem. 6 months ago she was not financially dependent on me and her financial circumstances have not materially changed other than perhaps for the better. She may require a bit of a subsidy to pay for a truck but that should be it. She has some access to storage already - places she emptied into here - through ex-partners. Whether they would be accommodating or not is another question that again - isn't my problem.

As one friend advised me a while ago - it's worth a certain amount of cash to be sure that this goes smoothly.

I figure that it will take me a minimum of 6 months to get back on my feet emotionally, financially and house-scrubbing-y. Not that there's anywhere to travel. Being able to work on various partly done projects like getting my sloop back in the water and working on the house will be my distractions along with spending some time in nature and with friends. There's no real way to rush this.

I did my big trip to "forn-parts" already and while there are some places I'd like to go like going to see the wooden Harrison clock in the UK - it's not real high on my list. I'm really not a traveler.

I always disliked the premise of the whole "bucket list" thing although I did watch the movie which I think is part of the basis of your question. I'm a believer in eating the cake now even if it is a smaller cake. 5 years out, heck 5 days out, I could be dead. I'm not intending on that (and yes, advised the kids and updated - again - the bequest documents). I could also have 50 more years. I have some very long lived ancestors who were vital and active up to the end.

So - I'm going to enjoy my shabby but neat (soon) home. Appreciate the contributions I can make to my job and my community both near and far. Be as kind as possible to the planet and those souls riding along with me. And probably be a bit sad about the lack of what doodler would refer to as poontang for the foreseeable future.

[kml]

I imagine you might be more of a traveler if you had a congenial traveling companion. All the historical monuments, museums, etc. would be right up your alley. If you like clocks you would enjoy the museum at Greenwich (which I believe has some of Harrison's sea clocks). One reason my mom, sister and I traveled so well together is we all shared an interest in history and enjoyed seeing all the museums and monuments etc.

But whatever you would enjoy spending your time doing - don't let this drama keep you too long from doing it.

[kml]

Btw did I ever tell my "poontang" story here? About Mojo Nixon?

[kml]

It was after my ex and I split. My first post-split boyfriend lived 11 hours away. I had visited him once for a weekend and it went swimmingly I thought. However, even though we still chatted online every day, no invitation to return had been made yet. I was going to be driving up to play a music gig just 2 hours from his home, and I suggested to him that I could come up for the weekend after I was done. It SEEMED like he was ok with that as we continued to chat but he never actually said anything like "yes, I'd like that".

Anyway. Mojo Nixon, a well known rockabilly-punk figure from the 80's, was also playing on this bill. We were chatting in the green room and Mojo had just learned what I did for a living. This was during the bad recession when everybody was on financially unstable grounds, except for people with jobs like mine.

Anyway, I told Mojo the story that I was going up to see this guy but not entirely sure if I was going to be welcome. And Mojo's response was everything I needed to hear in that moment. He said (incredulously):
"But you have a JOB! And you're bringing the poontang to HIM. And you have a J.O.B.!!!!!!"

I laughed so hard and never doubted myself again. Dang straight! I was bringing the poontang to HIM. He should be f-ing grateful!!! (And he was).

(Btw if you want to get a better idea of how he sounded, you can see his videos on youtube like the perennial favorite Tie My Pecker to My Leg or Elvis is Everywhere).

[AndrewP]

Definately going to have to check that out. A very good friend - the guy who introduced me to my ex-wife in fact is a huge rock-a-billy fan. He still plays - shame I can't share on here .... hmmm ... Anyhoodles, we would go to punk clubs from time to time - Lee's Palace in Toronto usually - where I discovered that as a large biker guy (usually wore my leathers) that slam-dancing was lots of fun. Always being careful to pick those skinny guys back up after I knocked them down.

We used to also hang out every Saturday at the El Mocambo where I once was using the urinal next to Long John Baldry. I didn't look over so can't really comment on his epiphet. At one time I lived around the corner from Albert's Hall and experienced some great live blues.

I usually listen to a lot of jazz and "rat pack" in the last few years but something he posted a few days ago reminded me of my fondness for Motorhead. S's S18 rarely emerges from his room but may have heard me vacuuming to Ace of Spades.

Thanks for posting this. Gave me a big smile and reminds me that there is more than one sort of poontang. And effort is far more sexy than anything else. And I have some new music to check out.

[bttrfly]

It was after my ex and I split. My first post-split boyfriend lived 11 hours away. I had visited him once for a weekend and it went swimmingly I thought. However, even though we still chatted online every day, no invitation to return had been made yet. I was going to be driving up to play a music gig just 2 hours from his home, and I suggested to him that I could come up for the weekend after I was done. It SEEMED like he was ok with that as we continued to chat but he never actually said anything like "yes, I'd like that".

Anyway. Mojo Nixon, a well known rockabilly-punk figure from the 80's, was also playing on this bill. We were chatting in the green room and Mojo had just learned what I did for a living. This was during the bad recession when everybody was on financially unstable grounds, except for people with jobs like mine.

Anyway, I told Mojo the story that I was going up to see this guy but not entirely sure if I was going to be welcome. And Mojo's response was everything I needed to hear in that moment. He said (incredulously):
"But you have a JOB! And you're bringing the poontang to HIM. And you have a J.O.B.!!!!!!"

I laughed so hard and never doubted myself again. Dang straight! I was bringing the poontang to HIM. He should be f-ing grateful!!! (And he was).

(Btw if you want to get a better idea of how he sounded, you can see his videos on youtube like the perennial favorite Tie My Pecker to My Leg or Elvis is Everywhere).

MOJO!!! love it!!!

[bttrfly]

Definately going to have to check that out. A very good friend - the guy who introduced me to my ex-wife in fact is a huge rock-a-billy fan. He still plays - shame I can't share on here .... hmmm ... Anyhoodles, we would go to punk clubs from time to time - Lee's Palace in Toronto usually - where I discovered that as a large biker guy (usually wore my leathers) that slam-dancing was lots of fun. Always being careful to pick those skinny guys back up after I knocked them down.

We used to also hang out every Saturday at the El Mocambo where I once was using the urinal next to Long John Baldry. I didn't look over so can't really comment on his epiphet. At one time I lived around the corner from Albert's Hall and experienced some great live blues.

I usually listen to a lot of jazz and "rat pack" in the last few years but something he posted a few days ago reminded me of my fondness for Motorhead. S's S18 rarely emerges from his room but may have heard me vacuuming to Ace of Spades.

Thanks for posting this. Gave me a big smile and reminds me that there is more than one sort of poontang. And effort is far more sexy than anything else. And I have some new music to check out.

knew I liked ya for a reason Andrew ...

[AndrewP]

What a day!

Overall work was decent - the usual number of things went sideways. Production and customer demands, things popping out of the woodwork, writing memos etc, wondering where that rail-car from Arkansas is and when it will arrive, some hurried math. Over-all actually a fairly quiet day. The old standby "a train leaves Chicago" is trivial compared to "you have 10 tonnes of product arriving between Friday and Tuesday depending on when the rail-car shows up, 5 different sizes of containers and various customer demands. What will you fill to optimize the benefit to customers, usage of containers and amount of unloading time knowing that between now and then the number of containers and the demands from the customers are sure to change but you need to draw between 9 and 10 1/4 tonnes". I came up with 9.7 tonnes some of which was forced on me because the operations staff was being "helpful" and prepped containers that I knew were lower priority but once prepped had to be used.

I do really like what I do and I'm sure that most people would think that this would be too much for me and drive me nuts. It's perhaps the "illusion" that I have some control over what is going on that helps?

--

I decided that I should try to pick up some laundry detergent while I was "in the city". Locally it's pretty much impossible to buy a scent free / dye free detergent. The one I really liked - Arm & Hammer - seems to no longer be available so I picked another. I'm figuring that I need to stock-pile things like that to a modest degree so that when S packs up that she can take the standard supplies. I'm still trying to figure out the stove situation. In the likely event that S takes her stove I'm thinking that for the very short term that I'll pop out and pick up a hot-plate while I figure that out. I've actually wondered previously if instead of a "regulation" stove if a few burners and a really nice small wall-mount oven in a cabinet might not be a good choice for me. More flexible and cheaper. Anybody ever heard of something like that tried for people who like to cook?

I could take the 220V coming in, re-wire it into a cabinet and draw either 220 or 110 as appropriate - perhaps with roll-outs - hmmmm. Most things I cook need 2 burners and I rarely use the "big" oven. 2 smaller ovens - one for a roast and another for the pie ....

-----

I spent a good portion of the day fidgeting. I'm a planner, fixer and fusser and being in an information vacuum is hard on me. So - after work I sent S the first message in quite a while "Getting things sorted out? I've been worried about you but figured you didn't need any extra noise around you." She got back to me promptly - is figuring out things with her Dad's estate but nothing about moving. I asked about if she's told S18 about us breaking up and no - she'll do that in person. AND then it turns out that her D26 just had a miscarriage.

I was proud of myself. My first reaction was to offer to help or to ease her burden in some way - I didn't. I expressed sadness about her daughter's situation. I was also disappointed in myself - because offering to help is what you are "supposed" to do. I've taken seriously the warnings that she may try to stretch things out although I really can't imagine that she has any interest in reconciliation or even perhaps being under the same roof as me.

I really like D26 - she's a bit of a bubble-head but a good kid. I don't want to think that the stress of her mother's situation and thinking that she needs to "fix that" for her had any impact and can't let myself go down that path. D26 has been through quite a lot in her short life and is a tough little cookie and I also can't imagine that she's hugely surprised - assuming she knows - about her mother and I splitting.

Some brief messages were also in about side issues. She's got her paperwork around her Dad's estate largely figured out she said. She appreciated that I'm driving S18 to work. Feeding him, putting a roof over his head, spending some time with him didn't get mentioned. She said she's not told him anything but will when she "comes up" - not using the word home. She will also be spending some time with her daughter - everything she has said is very vague and TBH none of my business.

I expressed confidence that she'll be able to deal with everything.

I am proud of myself in that I didn't allow myself to go into "fixer" mode. There was a good amount of back-spacing as it is automatic to say "if you need anything / if I can help let me know".

One of the things that has crossed my mind although it's rather cynical, is now that she's more or less "come in to money" that working on a relationship is less important to her. And also having that relationship not exist means that there will be less demands on that money. I don't believe this to be the case and it's irrelevant but could explain how easily she's letting go.

----

I had a call with my D28 on the way home today where I spent far too much time grumbling about S and providing details on why it's not going to work out. D28 has a lot of sympathy and I'm sure horror on what has happened to her childhood home. She's under a lot of stress right now as she's moving in a couple of weeks but doesn't know where to. Seattle is seeming likely though which would be good. She has friends up in that part of the world.

She's very much my daughter in that uncertainty bothers her. It's funny - as a pre-teen she had a horribly messy room which in one very traumatic episode her Dad (waves) cleaned for her. Her mother was very upset too especially about the number of "important things" that were thrown out. She's now even more an organization / neat freak than I am. Her mother had a certain amount of terror of D28 deciding for example that she had too many purses (I think she was up to about 12) and was brutally walked through down-sizing that to 3. I think D28 was perhaps D17 at that time.

She is frustrated because as usual her brother isn't returning any of her messages about Christmas etc. We're having brunch on Sunday again and I'll nag him. I've always wondered about the relationship between my kids but their relationship in some ways mirrors my own. My siblings and I have each other's back but rarely communicate.

D28 is very supportive of dear ole Dad though despite her own stress. We also talked a bit about Christmas and she's suggesting that any gift giving be delayed until she has an address. I'm one of "those" people that really prefer for Christmas to happen on the proper day. We also talked about her and her husband managing under lock-down. I wasn't happy to hear that they are going over to a friend's house for a group dinner and have suggested that she check out the old MythBuster's episode on being a germaphobe.

She thinks that I'm being lots generous to S in the timeline for moving out and having that validation was good.

----

In other news I stopped off at the store my ex-wife used to work at to pick up a couple of cans of beer to assist me with this post and got an earful about our local COVID situation. Sadly the semi-racist things said do seem to have some basis. We have quite a number of old-order Mennonite colonies around here and they are the epi-centres of the latest spread with some groups being quite affected. I assume that the official numbers, especially among such closed societies as those is under-reported. While they don't have much to do with the "English" as we are called, it looks like we're in for a tough time of it even here in this rural area. It's counter-intuitive in my mind because those communities are usually the first to rally around to help in times of trouble. A recent wedding with 100 people in attendance is pointed to as the event for many of the infections. From what I was told the local Tim Hortons was closed for a while which for those in the US South would be like a Waffle House closing. Major natural disaster.

I do worry quite a bit about S going down to where her Dad's house is, up to the city where her D26 is (who works in a restaurant) and interacting with D19 and BF both of whom show disregard for protocols. Part of me want to ask her to stay away but a bigger part of me wants her to deal with her stuff.

No easy choices.

[bttrfly]

your health is paramount.

[AndrewP]

Blah. Still no news nor any idea on when S might be back here. Annoying because I'm a fixer and a fidgiter. Writing out some stuff here because it helps me formulate my plans to document things.

It turns out that I'm stupider than I thought. The bank switched my chequing account and savings account to joint when I gave S what I thought was just access. Had a nice phone call with a young lady who explained the process to me. I'll need to get new accounts. I may set those up shortly. I have no expectation that S will drain the accounts and take an OM to the Caribbean like my ex-wife did and the actual financial exposure is fairly small. I also have told her that for the present that we are still operating "joint" banking. It's a phone-call and a couple of electronic forms for her to change where the payment is coming out - something we already discussed but I can understand that she's had a lot going on.

I will remind her again about those payments early next week. No sense now and by Monday she will have forgotten.

I have transaction alerts on the accounts and so can stay on top of that and pull the plug quickly if necessary. I think that I'll set up the new accounts this weekend. There's no reason why S would need access to the savings account. The chequing account is more tricky because it's not something I feel that I should do quite so unilaterally. I need to give some thought on how best I can limit my exposure. Hmmmm. A difficult balance between being prudent and being a jerk.

Because it no longer matters, I unblocked S's former partner on Facebook. He doesn't post much but clearly S's narrative that the marriage was over 7 years ago is completely and absolutely wrong. Some mutual tagging of "loving" kind of things on an infrequent but regular basis. He is as far as I can tell part of the "friends and family" circle of people around S as well.

I had seen this when doing my "due diligence" back when we were first dating but the narrative I got then was slightly different. I do think that S is one of those people for whom truth is flexible. This doesn't really change things though for me going forward, nor even a lot looking back.

He's sure to hear that S and I have split - he may already know through D19. What he does with that information is up to him although I will admit that if he encourages S to reconsider him that it would make my life easier.

He can now also see me - not that I really expect him to look - he's not much of a social media person and there are as far as I know no pictures where S and I are in them as a couple

I've now shampooed the living room rug multiple times. I can't believe how pungent it was nor how dirty. It's only a bit over a year old. I do hope that the enzyme treatment will get the smell of urine down. I do worry though that in the time that S and the dog will be spending here that it will be re-loaded. I think that planning on replacing the rug is probably the most likely outcome here. Somewhat of a testament to the fact that for the last 5 months I've not been comfortable or able to actually spend time in the living room either because of clutter or because it was already thoroughly occupied.

One of the things that I didn't like about what I think we can now refer to as my past life was that I felt like an intruder in my own home. The way that S and the boys lived their lives was not at all compatible with my own in that room as well as others.

"Fish and chips" for dinner tonight - I need to get started on that shortly. I mentioned to S18 when I drove him in to work that it's been a very long time since I had take-away and he thought that was a good idea. But then I realized that we have frozen breaded fish already in the freezer and I know how to make potato wedges.

Another thing where there was unforeseen in this case compatibility issues. I was balancing the books earlier and saw that S had spent over $500 on Uber-Eats while sorting through her Dad's stuff. Understandable perhaps that nobody was interested in cooking with the recent passing of her father. It seems to have dropped to very little at least from the numbers I can see. She may be paying for it out her own accounts.

It was remarked recently that I'm afraid of being alone / dying along. Sheesh - I'm having trouble waiting to be alone. There's so much I want to do. I'm so looking forward to being "me" again.

But first - there's going to be some tough slogging as well as showing some consideration and compassion for a woman and her boys who have had the rug literally taken out from under them.

I wonder though if it would be too much to start packing .... Maybe just the stuff in the front porch to begin with.

[Dawn70]

S and her boys have NOT had the rug taken out from under them. Andrew, please stop taking all the blame and acting like a martyr here. You gave S plenty of communication and she chose to ignore and act as if you were lucky she was there. She’s a user and she will be fine. You need to separate her from both your checking and savings account and move on. The longer she has access to your money, the more likely she will be to use it. $500 on Ubereats sounds like a lot to me but I live in BFE where we don’t have such things so maybe it isn’t. Still, $500 for takeout over, what, a month? Yeah, that still seems excessive. She thought nothing of it, though, because it isn’t her money and that is what takers do.

I know you’re processing and journaling more to straighten out your thoughts than anything but I really wish you could step outside yourself and read/interpret your writings from an outside perspective. I feel like many people have enabled S throughout her life to shape her to who she is and now you are doing the same. You continue to make excuses for her and take the lion’s share of the blame about everything. STOP THAT!!!!!!!!!

[AndrewP]

That's a bit harsh ((Dawn)). I'm glad I have you to give me a kick in the arse. One thing we are taught here as newcomers is to take ownership of our own failings and that stuck with me. While I do take ownership of my side of the street, I do agree that I gave it a good try but that it was just too much for me to deal with.

As we are also taught, we can't control other people and to me that also involves not casting blame or stones. DnJ has been a mentor to us all on that matter I feel

I just sent off S an email listing dates and items - echoes of separating from my ex and getting her crap out of the house. That took a looong time too. I put in that whatever isn't picked up by the start of May will be "disposed of" by my brothers and I.

I am confident that if I don't set a schedule and plan that there won't be one. Hopefully S actually reads that email - she has a (to me) horribly unorganized inbox but does seem to manage to see things related to the kids and school and whatnot. I've set dates for things to be out, dates when I'll be turning off streaming services etc and put in nothing about what she should / could do other than moving where her loan payment comes out and suggesting she pay it off if she can. That's for her to figure out and TBH I don't want to be responsible or involved.

For me it's good to put these things down in an essentially emotionless email. I had to work on not being too accommodating and giving in on things that I'm not asked to give in on. I did say that I was open to discussing specific items but will be surprised if S comes back with anything on that other than perhaps shifting the move-out date.

No clue what's going on with S. She said that she was going to visit her D26 for a few days and was vague about when she would be here. We do have an app Life360 that was intended so that she could see when I was going to and from work and it shows her as still at her Dad's house. I just uninstalled it - there's no reason to know where she is nor her me. She's said multiple times that she finds it a bit intrusive.

Going to be a solid steady day today. Lots to do as always. Banking where I'll mention to the staff about the separation so they can keep an eye open, groceries, laundry and then a small amount of packing and organizing. I'm still re-reading the Narnia series. I do like the innate kindness that is in many "kids" books.

I also need to give more serious thoughts to Christmas. I'm doing some research on what to get for my daughter and her husband. Memberships to cultural places is the usual and I can do that remotely and at the last minute. I'll need to start of my card list too.

Maybe I'll watch a Christmas movie later. Is it egg-nog / chicken milk time yet? Even though I managed just fine without alcohol knowing that I can / will be able to have a beer, glass of wine occasionally is a freeing feeling. My traditional glass of sherry on Christmas eve - dram of scotch on Robbie Burns day ...

[Dawn70]

I apologize for the harshness. I did not mean to come across that way but I certainly did and I’m sorry. I totally agree with taking ownership and not casting blame. Those are solid points. Where I diverge from your thinking is in that your posts come across as though you are taking ALL the blame and that isn’t right either. You are involved in the mess but you didn’t create it on your own and S bears responsibility, whether she owns it or not, in NOT stepping up after you discussing it with her. That part is all on her.

You have said many times in relation to different issues that something isn’t your business. You said it in this last post in relation to S’s loan. Andrew, please think about that very carefully. Her loan IS your business because you co-signed, so if she just says to heck with it and drops it, you are on the hook. I’m not saying you can or should make the decisions since your finances will be disentangled but you can and should feel like you can make suggestions and discuss things related to it because it is most certainly your business since your name is attached to it.

I had to laugh a bit because you finally hit on something S and I agree on. My mother-in-law basically demands that Sparky share his iPhone location with her “for her safety” (think Life360 but it is just a basic function of the phone rather than being an actual app). She’s a bit of a loon and terribly over dramatic about stuff and Sparky doesn’t really care so he does it to appease her. Anyway, before Sparky and I even got married, she started asking me to share mine with her as well. I just kind of ignored it at first but she was being kind of persistent about it (of course, in the vein of just wanting to know I was safe driving to and from work) and I finally just told her I don’t share my location with my husband or my own mother so I’m not sharing it with her either. I can see where those kinds of things have a good purpose and when I went on a school trip out of state back in the spring, I turned mine on for Sparky so he could see where I was. Overall, though, to just have it all the time like Sparky’s mom wants is a little too intrusive for me. She has no reason to know where I am every minute of every day and if she feels the need to track me then we have way bigger issues. Before anyone takes any of that as harsh, that is MY opinion. I’m not saying others shouldn’t use it for their own reasons if they so choose. I’m just saying that I don’t want to use it because I find it intrusive and so this is the one thing where I see S’s point.

[Ginger1]

May? Over 6 months to get her stuff out? You are going to wait that long to reclaim your space? 2 months is really more than generous , let alone 6!

[job]

I agree w/Ginger. Since she's dealing with the estate of her father, I would give her no more than March. I would also think about packing up some of that stuff in the living room/dining room and moving the boxes on the porch. Now is the time to start reclaiming your home/space. As for the rug...you may need to get a new one. Remember one of the things that we tell newbies over on the MLC forum if the spouse is still living at home...treat them as roommates.

Andrew, I think you have more than accepted your half of the issues in this relationship. You really have been a gentleman in allowing her and the two boys, as well as the pets to live there. You've given the relationship enough time to realize that it's not going to work, so please stop beating yourself up over the loss of this relationship. To be perfectly honest w/you, I had hoped she would wake up and realize what she had...but she didn't...it's her loss.

I agree w/Dawn...get your banking straightened out now, not later.

Enjoy your day and do not worry...S will be back around soon. Right now, she's in her own little world and isn't worried about anything but herself and the estate.

[bttrfly]

That's a bit harsh ((Dawn)). I'm glad I have you to give me a kick in the arse. One thing we are taught here as newcomers is to take ownership of our own failings and that stuck with me. While I do take ownership of my side of the street, I do agree that I gave it a good try but that it was just too much for me to deal with.

No. It isn't. Not in the least bit harsh. It's the truth, with no bark on it, Andrew and you're not comfortable with it. Ok, but that doesn't make it any less factual.

As we are also taught, we can't control other people and to me that also involves not casting blame or stones. DnJ has been a mentor to us all on that matter I feel

Andrew, that's a sly twisting of things. No, we cannot control anyone else, but it's an absolute disservice to both you and the person in question not to assign responsibility squarely where it belongs. Stop the BS. You're enabling her. I'll even go further: get off the cross, Andrew. It doesn't suit you.

I just sent off S an email listing dates and items - echoes of separating from my ex and getting her crap out of the house. That took a looong time too. I put in that whatever isn't picked up by the start of May will be "disposed of" by my brothers and I.

The one was your WIFE, and had been with you for decades. This is NOT your wife but a predatory woman who forced the issue and played you. She will take every second of time you're willing to give her and likely push for more. If you don't want it to take a long time, set a shorter deadline.

I am confident that if I don't set a schedule and plan that there won't be one. Hopefully S actually reads that email - she has a (to me) horribly unorganized inbox but does seem to manage to see things related to the kids and school and whatnot. I've set dates for things to be out, dates when I'll be turning off streaming services etc and put in nothing about what she should / could do other than moving where her loan payment comes out and suggesting she pay it off if she can. That's for her to figure out and TBH I don't want to be responsible or involved.

Yes, if you don't make a schedule and plan there won't be one. Didn't you also make a chore chart? How'd that work for you?

Regarding not wanting to be responsible or involved in the loan - you co-signed, so you are without question legally responsible AND involved. Better make sure you insist on getting yourself legally out of that mess or you will be left holding the bag.

For me it's good to put these things down in an essentially emotionless email. I had to work on not being too accommodating and giving in on things that I'm not asked to give in on. I did say that I was open to discussing specific items but will be surprised if S comes back with anything on that other than perhaps shifting the move-out date.

It was a good start. I'm sure as time progresses and with the benefit of input from an IC you may change some of that plan.

No clue what's going on with S. She said that she was going to visit her D26 for a few days and was vague about when she would be here. We do have an app Life360 that was intended so that she could see when I was going to and from work and it shows her as still at her Dad's house. I just uninstalled it - there's no reason to know where she is nor her me. She's said multiple times that she finds it a bit intrusive.

I think deleting that was a great idea. And while on the subject of comings and goings, you absolutely have every right to be concerned about the uptick of Covid and are well within your rights to limit her access to your home if you think she's likely to have exposed herself through her D19 or anyone else.

Banking where I'll mention to the staff about the separation so they can keep an eye open,

You could make this none of anyone else's business by just taking care of it yourself today. Remove her. Period. Or change savings accounts, close the joint one and reduce the joint checking to a number you're comfortable losing if she drained the account. You are no longer a couple. The rest is just details. Stop any financial exposure. Take care of YOURSELF. Trust that she will (and always does) take care of herself. It's not your job - she isn't inside your hula hoop. You are. Budget for a new rug when she and the pets are finally gone.

You're making progress Andrew but seriously, cut the alleged "nice guy" crap - there is absolutely nothing nice about enabling S, as you are doing. You are actually causing her quite a bit of harm by doing so and dragging things out way past their expiration date. Focus on YOU. Squarely. Totally. Completely.

[kml]

change savings accounts, close the joint one and reduce the joint checking to a number you're comfortable losing if she drained the account. You are no longer a couple. The rest is just details. Stop any financial exposure. Take care of YOURSELF.

Agreed. Do this. Your friendly bankers have no ability to stop her from draining the account so long as she’s on it.

[DonH]

Great advice and comments from Butterfly, Dawn, Job, Ginger and others. I'm not sure I can add much more on the specifics. But looking at the larger pictures, I fear things are just never going to change Andrew. Do you even want them to? I'm not saying you need to or even should become some different person. But how has all of this worked out for you? And do you want it to continue? If not, why then keep doing the same things over and over?

Of everyone here and from what it sounds like pretty much everyone in your personal life, is anyone surprised at what happened? Anyone? We pretty much all told you it would happen. Yet you gave us excuse after excuse including something about if you don't try you will never get anything. But it was all so clear - just as it's now much more clear to you in hindsight. If only you had listened. But hey, we all screw up. But why keep not listening?

It's almost as if you change your behavior, you admit what you did was not a good move. And stretching way into an area I have zero training in, I have to wonder if in some odd way you are trying to honor your father by being just like him. If you were to admit you are not making the best choices, you then have to admit he didn't either. I've seen this in several friends. I mean, who doesn't want to look up to their father?

You can't change the past but you certainly can change the future - but only if you change your actions. As Butterfly very clearly puts it "You're making progress Andrew but seriously, cut the alleged "nice guy" crap." I'm not sure it's alleged - i think it's more a defense mechanism. One to say "I'm still in control, I'm still aware, I'm still me making sound decisions and what I do makes good sense." I think you will get through this mess with S. My huge fear is for the next one. Your patterns are clearly established and just about in cement. And it's getting worse. C, may have been the most normal, though many of us will argue whether that was any sort of a dating or romantic thing rather than just a platonic friendship. Although she too was still married. Then B (also still married) took things a step farther down the quality ladder, followed by S (also still married and for the 4th time) who was really a big step down the quality ladder below the level you should ever be partnering with. I shutter to think who could be next.

I'm hopeful a good C can help you with this - as long as you can set aside your stubbornness with this new C, and with those here and IRL trying to help you and just admit, you're not at all good at picking women and at this R stuff. Once you do, I think you can get much better at it. But hey, it's your choice. You can keep saying all of us are wrong and your way is the right way, and paying the price, or say, HELP me and I will listen.

S does not need over 6 months to get out. Heck that's longer than she's lived there! She needs to pay off the loan that you somehow got on the hook for. She needs to have zero access to YOUR MONEY. She clearly should never have been placed on your will but at least needs to be off by midnight Monday. She's obviously not crying herself to sleep or totally broken up over your breakup. If she were, she'd be contacting you, she'd be trying. Instead if you didn't' reach out to her, you'd likely not hear from her until the next time she decided to waltz through your door, kids and pets in tow. And $500 for uber eats? Clearly this woman has zero ability to value or budget money. She was just not given that gene - that's clear.

I could go on and on but again the others have laid it out even clearer than I have. Set a plan, get S out of your life, get a good C to help you get better at this and it's likely there is someone out there you can spend time with - notice I didn't say place on your will and move into your house in the first months - just spend some time with. There is a huge difference.

[AndrewP]

Sheesh bttrfly - slow down. As much as you and others may disagree, I believe that I've got this even if I am walking a bit of a tightrope right now.

I have a huge amount of fondness for my friends here who stand up for me, kick me when they feel I need it, even if I don't always agree. I know that generally it's done from a place of caring and concern.

One thing I was thinking about just now was the fact that pretty much for my entire life I've had this odd relationship with the fairer sex. Even when I was young I was looked on as someone who perhaps wasn't all that bright with regards to inter-personal relationship and who needed to be protected. Diss me and there would be an army of females coming to my defense. My ex-wife in particular was particularly militant about that sometimes with unfortunate consequences. That contrasts though to the common reaction when I appear to have made up my mind about something and then people tend to get out of the way especially including those same people who were defending me. Weird. Something to explore perhaps with my therapist. It may be tied perhaps to an un-diagnosed Asperger's which I know we explored here a few years ago. A former colleague of mine who has a son with Asperger's assured me that I don't show any of the signs.

Professionally I've been told more than once that one of my strongest attributes is gravitas and the appearance of competence. There's been more than one meeting that I've walked out of and just shaken my head that "boy I sounded like I knew what I was talking about".

Ah well - if we knew how human beings worked we wouldn't need forums like this.

As far as the timelines to - it comes down in part to weather. We can get viscous storms here through February and March. I'm also allowing a certain amount of time for S to get her legacy so that she can afford storage.

One thing that I know about hoarders and used this with my ex-wife is that they are very attached to their stuff and will defend it and protect it. The blunt statement that my brothers will help me dispose of things in May will be effective. Again - people believe that once I have spoken on a matter that there is no possibility of negotiation. Which still baffles me. But I fully expect and will enable loads of stuff to go from here to elsewhere - probably including things not intended to leave - through the winter.

I talked to the clerk at my bank today and based on her recommendation I have opened up another account that my pay will be deposited into and I'll transfer those savings that I can't risk over - probably on Monday or Tuesday once the paperwork is filled out. I'll also make an appointment in mid-December to close things out and sort everything around. Given the nature of the branch I deal with, everyone there now knows my situation and I can count on them to watch my back. I'll have to shuffle things around to make it work but that's small potatoes compared to figuring out the stuff I do every day professionally.

Even if I wasn't a decent guy, one thing that I know is that in an - ahem - p!ss!ng match that everyone gets wet. And it needs one prick to get it started. I need S's cooperation to get this all sorted out. And I do quite value my own belief in myself as a decent guy.

I got another confirmation that S is shaking the dust from this relationship off her boots. I mentioned to a mutual friend - the lady who runs the bake-shop around the corner that we have split "because it was just too much for me" and she already knew. She didn't seem surprised.

Worried still about how S18 will deal with this. In the past month without his mother here we've become closer. He really takes to heart now my constant harping on healthy food and avoiding processed foods. He's gone from eating pre-done food to making sandwiches which I'm taking as a victory especially since he is now asking for deli cuts. I teased him this afternoon that soon I'll get him putting lettuce on the sandwiches. He was very positive when I showed him the ham I have out thawing for tomorrow to go with baked potatoes. Let's hope that this will instill in him the idea that healthy food isn't hard.

The play list right now is "With a little help from my friends" sung by Joe Cocker. An old friend of mine actually saw his performance of this at Woodstock. It's nice to know that I have friends there who are looking out for me even when I don't think I need it. I really appreciate it.

[kml]

Joe Cocker at Woodstock - great stuff there.

You know, you can remain friends with S18 after this is all done if he so desires. Hopefully this glimpse he’s gotten of how a mature responsible man lives will give him something to shoot for.

[bttrfly]

there's nothing to slow down about ... there are definite reasons why I suggested alanon meetings to you. it's a place to go where you can learn what's yours and what isn't, and how to stay on the right side of that blurry line between being supportive and enabling.

[job]

One last reminder...be sure to speak to the institution that has the "loan" on file. Tell them what has happened with the relationship and that you want to have your name removed from that account asap, that you are no longer going to be responsible for her loan. Even if you can't get your name removed, it will let them know that she's no longer in a relationship with you If I were S, I would pay that loan off as soon as possible.

[DonH]

One last reminder...be sure to speak to the institution that has the "loan" on file. Tell them what has happened with the relationship and that you want to have your name removed from that account asap.

Lol oh sure, and I’m certain they will just say, no problem, we’ll be happy to remove the co-signer and eat the losses for you. Yeah, NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. This is business. This is life. Andrew may be willing to take the loss but most of the rest of the world and all of the business world is not. They decided that S was not worthy of a loan. Andrew was. So while S got the money, Andrew is on the hook for it and they are not going to let him off until every last dollar is paid back. I swear far too many want to live in this nice, loving world they have in their mind where people are willing to do all sorts of things for their neighbor. Might be nice but it’s simply not reality. We have to deal with and live in the world we have. More power to anyone who wants to work to change it but living as if it’s already changed will not work out. The only chance here is to pressure S to pay it back/off. If she fails to do so and has no assets, they will come after Andrew who has the assets. That’s how this works.

[Ginger1]

This is unfortunately true. Banks don’t care that they broke up. They knew S did not have the credit to risk the loan, so they would only take it with a co-signer. They don’t care if the co-signer is in a relationship or not. If she defaults or is late on payments, they are coming after Andrew, broken up or not. Just like when parents co-sign a loan. Parents can’t break up with their kids and be excused from the responsibility responsibility they signed for.

Andrew, this was not a wise move at all financially. You didn’t really know the ins and outs of her situation or her take on money when you did this. You were, of course, just trying to rescue. Let’s just pray she sees value in repaying her loans, and repaying her loans on time, because that’s the only possible way you will be off the hook for this loan

[kml]

Yeah the bank won’t care. It would of course be ideal if S paid off the loan once she got her inheritance but the likelihood that a shopaholic with the attitude that credit cards are for paying minimum payments will likely not do that on her own. I think Andrew understands that he may well end up on the hook for this loan at some point. A good cautionary tale to all the other rescuers out there. The best hope is to make sure it’s being automatically withdrawn from an account only in her name. She could still default but automatic payments help.

[job]

I hope and pray that she's trustworthy enough to pay the loan off. Is it a large loan or small one? Was this loan to pay off her husband for something or did she need to funds for something else. The reason that I am asking is maybe if you continue to remind her that this loan needs to be paid off since you two have split and that you do not want to left on the hook for it....she just might do the right thing and pay it off. If I recall, didn't she squirrel away some money recently? If so, I would think that she could at least take a little bit of that money and pay down on the loan. Are her credit cards maxed out? If not, she could also use them to pay off the loan that has your name associated to it.

Heck, she could have a yard sale and make some money...but we all know she's not letting anything go. There are a lot of ways that she could earn some money to pay this loan off...but she has more excuses than Carter's got liver pills.

I do agree w/kml that automatic payments would help immensely and not the standard "S, it's time to pay on that loan". Is there anyone that can replace you as the co-signer or that loan? I don't know if the bank will allow that, but it's something that you may, at some point, ask about. At some point S is going to need to change her address and notify the bank of that address change, but that may not happen for quite some time.

We all would have advised you not to jump in feet first when co-signing loans w/others. I do understand that you thought this was the woman that you would marry and live out the rest of your life with. As kml pointed out, this is a good example of what people should seriously think about not doing until a marriage takes place. I'm truly sorry that this is an additional worry for you...but you will stay on it and I'm sure you will figure out what to do.

[AndrewP]

One last reminder...be sure to speak to the institution that has the "loan" on file. Tell them what has happened with the relationship and that you want to have your name removed from that account asap, that you are no longer going to be responsible for her loan. Even if you can't get your name removed, it will let them know that she's no longer in a relationship with you If I were S, I would pay that loan off as soon as possible.

A good cautionary tale to all the other rescuers out there.

I used to joke with my kids that if I can't be a good example that I can at least be a horrible warning

The loan was taken to pay off the money she owed her husband that she had been making monthly payments on but little progress on the whole amount. The intent at the time was that that would get the financial piece out of the way - one of the reasons she had given for not having the divorce done.

The amount needed wasn't huge but to get the loan they rolled in her van payments as well. The total payment is roughly what she was paying out separately and this gave her a specific timeline for getting free and clear. So to me it made a lot of sense. S is of course presently wound up about the fact that the interest rate on the consolidation loan is higher than her van loan - not looking at the fact that it has the same term and an over-all lower cash outlay.

I had a chat with the teller at my bank about this on Saturday and she checked with her manager. Technically there's nothing they can do, but they are aware and I've banked there for 30 years. They have a history of being very helpful and accommodating to life's vicissitudes and I am confident that if I did get stuck with this that they would work with me. What I would do with S's van - I don't know. It's pledged as security on the loan - the only way that they would give it to her.

S has a "very" large amount of pride in that she says that she never took advantage of any former partners financially. Even if she may be short of cash at the moment she's going to be coming in to several hundred thousand dollars when her Dad's estate settles and the house sells. Probably close to 50K out of the insurance and settling his investment portfolio alone which is well over the size of the loan.

If it were me, I'd use that to pay off the loan which then frees up liquidity and saves a whack of interest payments. But it's not me and she will make whatever choices she makes.

I actually have full confidence that S will deal with this loan. I also have a certain amount of confidence that in the short term that I may end up making a couple of payments. With the grocery budget dropping from $1,800 / month to probably $600 - that still leaves me "well" ahead.

----------

Still no word from S. I asked S18 if he'd heard from his mother when I drove him into work and nada. It's sooo very tough to not have the conversation with him but it's not my place and my telling him would do more harm than good because I have no answers to the questions he would certainly have.

-----------

I had a nice brunch with my S26. He's doing fairly well. I took him a bunch of meat as I have far too much for just me and this was from the 1/4 cow I got in the summer when I thought I'd be feeing between 4 and 12 people regularly. "The girls" were happy to see me and it looks like Amy has put on a bit of the weight she'd lost. The coffee shop we have gone to twice now does a really really good job. I had scrambled eggs with hollandaise sauce over top. S26 was jealous. His chicken sandwich had big thick pieces of meat. I'm glad we've found an "our place". In some ways it reminds me of the place his mother and I went to every Sunday that was an "our place" as well.

We did talk about the will and how everything is back the way it was and how it all sorts out. It turns out that he is co-executor for his mother. I resisted asking how she was. I think it's easier on him now that I have made it clear that I am essentially "over it". I don't think he sees her too often though.

We talked about Christmas and that I was hoping to do up a duck and have him over. S and the kids already have plans to have a last Christmas at the old family home - one of the things that was tough not talking to S18 about that I won't be there. I scoped out his apartment while I was there - I have a few ideas on gifts now. Mostly decor stuff and stuff for the cats.

I'm thinking that for my daughter and her husband that I'll send them some sort of local to their new home "welcome" basket / flowers etc plus a membership to whatever cultural institution is close by. I can do all of that quickly and remotely. As far as I know they don't know where they will be living yet but Seattle is on the short list I know.

S26 seems to think that my over-all plan is considerate and reasonable. Packing things up and essentially filling the dining room with boxes until they get picked up. Or disposed of. He did confirm that when he was visiting S back in the day that her place while not super tidy wasn't too bad - as long as her daughter was in charge. It would slide badly from time to time.

I think he's looking forward to feeling more welcome to come back to the house. And I'll feel better having company. There's a concept in FlyLady - CHAOS - Can't Have Anyone Over Syndrome which was the case with my ex and her mess and is much much worse now.

Well - off to the rest of my day. I'm working on my 2021 budget. I'm adjusting things to be able to get some needed repairs to the house taken care of. I need new railings for the balcony, new flooring for the kitchen / laundry room plus plus plus.

I'm also going to give the MBR a good clean this afternoon. It's not had one since S moved in as I couldn't find the floor nor most flat surfaces in much of it. I have a ham that is perhaps too large in the slow cooker and we'll have garlic bread and baked potatoes with butter and sour cream to go with that. S18 and I talked and the ham will be sliced for lunch meat and the rest of the left-overs will get cubed and frozen for a future stir-fry. He's getting used I think to my many aphorisms - the one here being "the most expensive food you can have is food you don't eat".

I think that he'll be resilient when he gets the news. He is far more capable I feel than his mother gives him credit for. But then again they have a pretty toxic relationship.

Off to the rest of my day - thanks all.

[LH19]

S has a "very" large amount of pride in that she says that she never took advantage of any former partners financially.

Spit my coffee. Thanks Andy p.

[AndrewP]

Addendum(s)

S26 mentioned that to his knowledge that S has always rushed into relationships so this really is no different.

I also heard from S herself. She is planning on being here late tomorrow, read my email with the separation plan last night and has - for now - nothing that she feels needs to change.

It will be good to get out of this semi-limbo and things moving along. I'll hopefully know more on Tuesday then.

Stay tuned ....

[kml]

S has a "very" large amount of pride in that she says that she never took advantage of any former partners financially.

Ummmmm..... the ex she owed money to and was making little headway because she was only making minimum payments doesn’t count????

Watch what she DOES not what she says. Protect yourself in every way possible.

(Also I almost choked when I saw your grocery bills then remembered these were Canadian dollars. Still it was crazy high in the past. )

[job]

Please listen to kml...she has given you some wise advice...actions speak louder than words.

BTW, I just about fell off the chair about S have a large amount of pride not taking advantage of former partners financially. I would love to know what she thinks she's been doing for years...I wonder what her definition is of taking financial advantage of former partners.

I'm glad you and your son are getting together and having some good chats. So glad the "girls" are doing well and were happy to see you.

Andrew, keeping busy and cleaning your home is one way to work out some of that stress. Packing up the boxes is one way to clear the way to get to your dining room table and having a nice meal w/your son. If you need to put stuff out on the porch, by all means do it. I do not think S will have any problem w/what you are packing. She may actually feel relieved to know that her stuff in the immediate living area has been packed up.

Hang in there! There is light at the end of the tunnel and a new year around the corner.

[AndrewP]

In S's defense she got no child support from the oldest two kid's Dad, is getting less child support from the younger 3's Dad than she is entitled to. And she didn't try to get any property settlement from her former partner. Although that relationship has a funny smell. There are of course longer stories that go with all of that about a system that's rigged against a single-mom - much of which is undoubtedly true.

I don't know, but suspect that the debt was incurred for her to start up one of her ventures which I went into this relationship knowing that I wasn't going to fund anything. My ex-wife had all sort of "sell at home parties" schemes she signed up for that never went anywhere so it made me skittish. Not that S ever hinted at wanting funding for any of her "entrepreneurial" ideas.

The consolidation loan was my idea to simplify her finances, get her clear of her former partner and clear off her single low limit credit card that she was paying a massive amount of interest on. At the time I was looking at this as "family finances" and a watch-word for me is "simplify". S may consider herself rail-roaded into it - when pushed like she was in counseling there's a lot of buried resentment and issues that bubbled up.

She does operate from a point of view of pride though. It's pretty important to her I feel albeit in different ways than from me. She's never "taken a hand-out". She should qualify easily for a variety of government programs but never took any - although there also may be more to that story than I know as well. I'm pretty sure she just never applied.

-------

Stressing through the day today. I don't expect S to be here until fairly late tonight - perhaps after I've gone to bed. While I really really don't want to have to deal with "stuff" I know that I will have to in part. Finding a place, moving, none of that is on my shoulders though. I do keep feeling stressed and rather guilty even though - yes - I know that this is necessary. Hopefully she will be in and out in a day or so and not making this a home base. I can't see that happening though as she undoubtedly won't feel very welcome.

I've never been a friend to uncertainty especially of a situation that I feel that I have no control over. I know the reality is that I have full control. This is my house. There is no legal relationship between S and I. I know this feeling well - it was the same feeling I had with my ex waiting for her to make a decision and provide clarity. It will only last a few days I hope. In the mean-time I'm a very stressed out man. I could be a jerk and just start ferrying things out to the front lawn but I want to be "fair" and decent about this. I'm not angry at her - still fairly angry at myself for not pulling the plug in the many opportunities that I had along the way. I'm not angry at me for this not being able to work though. I don't see the incompatibility between us as a shortcoming of my own. Nor really of her even if it is easy to cast stones.

I keep reminding myself of our guardian angel job sitting on my shoulder - be calm - be patient - don't make rash choices - it will all work out. And also my own knowledge of how the universe works. If you have to force it, you're not doing it right.

[LH19]

And also my own knowledge of how the universe works. If you have to force it, you're not doing it right.

Sooooooo would that include proposing to a married woman and moving her and her brood in after 6 months of dating?

The universe can be cruel for sure.

[Westo]

And also my own knowledge of how the universe works. If you have to force it, you're not doing it right.

Sooooooo would that include proposing to a married woman and moving her and her brood in after 6 months of dating?

The universe can be cruel for sure.

Ooof!

[AndrewP]

And also my own knowledge of how the universe works. If you have to force it, you're not doing it right.

Sooooooo would that include proposing to a married woman and moving her and her brood in after 6 months of dating?

The universe can be cruel for sure.

So can people who keep harping on the same thing over and over

[LH19]

I'm sorry Andy P but you have to stop lobbing me softballs.

[DonH]

I could be a jerk and just start ferrying things out to the front lawn but I want to be "fair" and decent about this.

Thankfully, those are not your only 2 options. Yet you throw up an option that clearly is way out of bounds in an effort to make it look like the other option is the only one left. Is that called a straw man position or is it a paper tiger - something set up with the only purpose of then tearing it down? Anything short of giving S 6 months is not being a jerk Andrew.

I'm sorry Andy P but you have to stop lobbing me softballs.

Or perhaps stop trying to explain or defend the indefensible. Like oh I don’t know, claiming S has a large amount of pride in never having taken advantage of other men.

[AndrewP]

Well - it's Wednesday.

S showed up yesterday afternoon with S13 but no dog. She doesn't look good - certainly tired and has apparently lost quite a bit of weight lately. Her cheeks look hollow.

No excitement to see me, feigned or real. No hugs, no smooches certainly and no appearance of anger. I didn't offer any sort of physical closeness either.

I expect the dog was left at her Dad's house where it appears that D19 and BF are now living at least most of the time - no surprise there. S knows that even though I like the dog that it's one of the "problems" which I think was confirmed in her mind when she got into the house and could still smell the enzymes I have been using in the living room to try to get the urine smell out of the carpet.

One of the reasons that S didn't come up on Monday was that she was trying to sort out the internet service for the house - an indication to me that she's now planning on living there for the near future. Superficially it makes a huge amount of sense. She has access to her Dad's banking to pay the bills so can save money, she and her kids are familiar with the place and the neighbourhood.

S13 was taken to his Dad's house with his hamster. It's about an hour away and S was gone for about 4 hours on that errand. She came in to the MBR and got her pillows and a few other things and moved into S13's room which actually has her old bed in it which she really likes. I didn't invite her to stay with me and she didn't offer. Contrawise, she actually commented on how much better I would undoubtedly sleep without a red-head wandering through at 2:00 am. I didn't dispute it.

As far as the missing time goes, she could have circled around to see her D26 who recently had a mis-carriage. Don't know - none of my business.

I don't expect her to stay here more than a day or so - a pattern that will probably repeat for the next number of weeks as she loads stuff up.

I would think she told S18 yesterday that we're splitting and that he'll need to move. They had s'mores in the toaster oven later I think.

I feel sad for her, but not sorry for her if that makes sense.

I have no urge to try to "help" or manage her future choices. I'm considering reaching out to her D26 for us to jointly plan on how to get everything out of the house in a reasonably orderly fashion though. Certainly not a good idea at present but if it looks in the New Year like S isn't doing anything then I'll nudge things along.

My stress level which was waaaayyy through the roof is now down even if still there. In-house separation as we all know is very very tough and I was dreading seeing her again and the "whole everything" thing. It appears that everything will move along in due course without drama - which I have difficulty dealing with.

-----

In other news, her one cat is constipated and has been for the last few days. This is the one of the two that I like the least that used to fight with "my girls". I picked him up and palpitated his abdomen and didn't feel any sort of blockage and he seemed pretty happy for the attention. He's eating well but what comes out the other end is small and has a little bit of blood in it. He struggles a lot too. This is a contrast to him usually dropping huge uncovered steamers twice a day that stink up the place. He's a big cat and was hugely obese before we put him and the other cat on limited feedings albeit of the same diet food they were eating.

I let S18 know a day or so ago and he didn't seem too concerned. I left S a note describing symptoms before I went to bed and talked to her about it when I saw her. The food hasn't been changed from what he's been eating for the last few months. He's been spending a lot of time going in and out of the litter-box and has made a huge mess in the downstairs bathroom playing in the toilet and also digging and making a mess in the bathtub. I've closed the lid on the toilet (my normal preference) and asked S and S18 to keep it closed.

Neither S18 nor S seem all that concerned - which to me is odd. But then again perhaps not odd. They seem to have cycled through quite a few pets over the years.

S13 noticed when he was briefly here that the cat has litter on his paws. I didn't pay much attention to that but checked more closely this morning and his front paws are caked with litter - probably a side-effect of his digging in the toilet. He's always had access to the toilet - a practice I feel is very gross. I tried to clean them off a bit with poor results and will suggest to S when she eventually gets up that she and S18 try to get them cleaned. I think that will make him a lot happier. I can't help but wonder if his clogged paws are causing him to try to use the litter-box where he can only deposit what he's got on board as it were.

Even though I don't like the cat, I mean him no harm. He seems to be in reasonably good spirits. Good appetite, as active as he ever is so we can assume that this will - ahem - pass. If he starts showing some signs of distress I'll take him in to the vet.

-----

Moving things along here. I moved a bunch of the books I used to have in the master bath back into there. Some old home repair books that are nice to browse around through and are "heirlooms" I got from my parents that are well over 50 years old. S had demanded that all books be removed from the bathroom when she moved in - something I failed to understand but complied with. In talking to her son-in-law, her daughter has the same demands. What are you supposed to do - stare at the walls? I also would have knot-making books and pieces of rope to play with. My ex-wife used to joke about my "knotty books" in the bathroom

Once I have a clearer understanding of S's intentions then I'll start shifting more things around. I don't want to interfere with her ability to find things and organize her move. I do know that there will undoubtedly be quite a bit of vagueness about her plans but the process of turning this back into "my" home from "our" home should be able to begin in earnest this week. Even if S18 stays until the New Year (sort of expected) and S is in and out there is no reason why I can't go through the kitchen, MBR, living room etc sorting and separating.

My new bank account was set up yesterday and if it's all good then I'll shift over savings and have my pay start getting deposited there as of next pay cycle which is around when I'll be shutting down the old accounts anyway.

My SIL2 who runs wellness retreats etc is going to help purify the house. We may do something after S18 and the critters move out and then a more thorough cleansing in the spring.

So - feeling not too bad. As far as breakups go - this could have been a "lot" worse. Not to of course minimize the real hurt that has been done and that there will need to be healing from - on both sides.

[AndrewP]

S finally got out of bed around 1:30pm.

She's told S18 who she describes as "disappointed". I doubt he was surprised. Fortunately he has online therapy with his IC on Wednesday mornings and so that hopefully helped. He'll have a long road to go I'm sure.

S has no specific plans on where she's going to be moving to still but is currently downstairs with a large number of empty boxes and a tape gun - so the packing is underway. I "helpfully" pointed out that there extra boxes in the front porch too. She actually perhaps has almost enough to replace the boxes she unpacked - so much stuff still in boxes and plastic bins everywhere.

Disappointingly she doesn't seem too concerned about her cat. In hind-sight that shouldn't be too much of a surprise. She mentioned that S18 had worked on his paws for a bit with little result. I'll see what I can do on my own.

She said that she may be going up for a couple of days to help her D26 who just had a miscarriage a bit over a week ago - something she said she was doing last week.

So - it looks like a variation of in-house separation for the next number of weeks - wheeee!

[AndrewP]

Things are moving along.

I was walking my elderly next door neighbour across the street after picking up my mail and she mentioned that she's booting out her tenant from the other side of her duplex. "Nothing but trouble". I don't think I'll mention that to S although I did mention to my neighbour that S and her boys will be moving out. I'll need to mention that to my other neighbours so that suspicious people carrying furniture out of the house aren't suspicious.

The cat is currently gorging himself on water with a bit of tuna water in it. Hopefully that will help clear up whatever is blocked up. I do know from the litter box that liquids come out ok. I'm still disturbed by S's disregard for the cat's issues. My original thought and concern was that when I told her initially that the cat appeared to be constipated that we'd be rushing to the vet and get huge bills - which I felt guilty about setting as a concern. But no - she didn't care. The second issue of him having his paws clogged with caked on litter - well that was for S18 to deal with. Grrrrrr.

I spent some time yesterday dipping the cat's paws in the laundry tub. He likes playing in the water - they leave the toilet seat up for him to do that - ewwww - and he went along with it somewhat. Got some of the worst clogs out. I only got scratched twice - not enough to have to worry about my leg needing to be chopped off this time I would hope. And yes - I've been asking for the lid to be closed but it is always left up. I even used a post-it note stuck to the lid.

Keep in mind too that this is the really annoying jerk cat that used to fight with "my girls" and is the reason I had to give them up. My application for saint-hood has been filed.

S has done a chunk of packing so far. In hindsight it's not surprising that she's focusing on her craft supplies and a bunch of them appear to have left the building. That rarely get used but she was going to have a separate crafting room and make things to sell yadda yadda yadda. Sorry - I'm getting more cynical by the day. I've not seen what else she may have packed. I've started working on making sure that "my" stuff is separate. The very very few things that are truly important to me like my pie bird are carefully packed away.

As an aside, when she was moving in, the craft supplies were the first thing then too and she would haul them back and forth between here and her apartment.

She has a "large" amount of boxes that have been purchased - undoubtedly with the money she's been holding back. Not that I would have had an issue with her having her own emergency "this might not work out" fund - but the secrecy and lies about that were part of the problem. I'm glad to see the boxes - when she moved in so much of the stuff was tossed into garbage bags that it was quite difficult.

----------

I was down at the plant today and S had said that she was going to spend a couple of days with her daughter. She and S13 came through the house today though I noticed even though it's a bit of a drive. A long list was left for S18 - it appears she's going to push him to apply for a government support program (which I'd suggested quite a while ago to help with the bills here) and live on his own. S13 left some graffiti on a white-board which is how I know he was here. It's a bit surprising because I figured he'd be with his Dad for a while.

To be frank I'm not all that surprised that S18 is being pushed to be independent. S didn't seem to care as long as they were here but she and S18 have a "lot" of issues. It's all part of the package though - he's not my kid even though I like him. I'm willing to be around but he needs to be elsewhere along with his rabbits too. It's possible that his Dad will step up - I don't know and am not intending on sticking my nose into things.

When S left yesterday for her daughter's, she surprised me with a hug. It was awkward. She said "you don't have to if you don't want to". I've now found the words to say "I don't want to get drawn back in - I need to let go". Certainly no real worries about a late night booty call which means I get to have a beer in the evening now since there will absolutely be no smooching. In fact, given her travels and my opinions about her D19, staying a minimum of 6' away is probably a good idea for lots of reasons.

I feel good in many ways (other than for the cat) that things are moving and that I'm having to do little to move them along.

As I was telling a good friend of mine today. The key take-away from this for me is that people got hurt. When my ex-wife left, it was pretty much only me that got hurt. When B left, her grandkids took a hit as did I imagine B herself to a degree but I took much of that hit. This time - the hurt is hitting a lot of souls, most of whom are completely innocent. I'm sure even the hamster is disturbed about being shuffled all over the countryside. To me - that is something that is unacceptable and yes - I know that I'm taking a bunch of the blame on myself here. I can take a hit but because my actions and inaction have caused hurt to innocent others, well - I need to do better in the future.

[kml]

The lesson here - for you AND more importantly for S - is don’t involve the kids too soon! Because things just don’t always work out - and kids don’t need to go through their parents’ romantic upheavals. It really takes time to know someone well enough to know if they are a compatible life partner. What people present in the beginning may not always be the whole truth.

That’s sad to hear that she’s abandoning S18 again. Kids are a lot younger today at 18 than we were, and he sounds particularly young. Plus it’s the middle of a pandemic! Hardly a good time for the poor kid to be on his own and find his way in the world.

[Ginger1]

Wow. She moved her son in with you, but now she won’t let him come with and he has to figure it out alone while her D19 and her boyfriend get to live with her? How come D19 wasn’t being “pushed to be independent ? “ It’s very very sad the way she treats her kids. I can see why her relationship is not good with her S18. This poor kid was left to fend for himself at 16, now at 18 she kicks him out while the others free load. I’m sure their relationship isn’t good either because he is the one who sees his mom for who she really is. My heart seriously hurts for that kid. I hope he is the one who gets out of the cycle the rest of the family is in.

I still for the life of me can’t figure out the “easy to love” part. I get the hard to live with but not the easy to love. She certainly doesn’t make it easy for her own offspring to love her .

[AndrewP]

I still for the life of me can't figure out the "easy to love" part. I get the hard to live with but not the easy to love. She certainly doesn't make it easy for her own offspring to love her .

Oh - she's very charming and passionate. Has a perky and quirky side that can feel a bit extreme at times. Talks a good game about being capable and compassionate. It may be in part her ADD but she has a short attention span on the latter and poor follow-through. But in the moment it all feels very sincere.

Hoping for a nice smooth day today. I'll very likely need to be driving S18 in to work this afternoon so might be able to find out a bit about how he's doing.

Anyone who has known me for more than 45 seconds knows that my favourite author is Terry Pratchett. Someone on social media posted this excerpt this morning. I re-read this book about a month ago and this discourse on sin / virtue is one of my more favourite bits.

A conversation between Reverend Mightily Oats and Granny Weatherwax on sin, from the novel "Carpe Jugulum" by Terry Pratchett

RMO - "It's not as simple as that. It's not a black and white issue. There are so many shades of gray."

GW - "Nope."

RMO - "Pardon?"

GW - "There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people as things. Including yourself. That's what sin is.

RMO - "It's a lot more complicated than that . . ."

GW - "No. It ain't. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they're getting worried that they won't like the truth. People as things, that's where it starts."

RMO - "Oh, I'm sure there are worse crimes . . ."

GW - "But they starts with thinking about people as things . . . "

Certainly something to keep in mind for us all. I tried to find the verse in the Bible that says "We are all God's Creatures" and read some different interpretations on that but despite it being I believe a common phrase, doesn't seem to have an explicit reference.

That one core truth though - people are not things - even those we may have conflict with - is pretty profound. Especially for a Friday.

[AndrewP]

Happy Saturday! Nice sunshiny day here at least for now. I'm digesting a mushroom omlette and have a full pot of tea.

I participated in the "work" Zoom happy hour last night for a bit. It was nice to catch up. So many different standards on how companies are dealing with COVID restrictions. It turns out that the owner of my company and the COO are both in the "it's no big deal" camp and insist that all management show up every day to their office on the 13 floor of a downtown office tower. Good thing that I've been exiled out to the boonies where that sort of nonsense doesn't happen.

It's interesting because these are all people I've worked with over the years some of whom are now competitors and customers. Shop talk is fairly open though although I do try to keep anything strategic quiet. One of the people on there talked about a big piece of business that they just landed that will be coming my way which made me cringe. It turns out that shipments in from China which used to undercut us even on bulk commodities have become increasingly unreliable and expensive. Ships are smaller, containers are smaller and high margin goods like PPE are getting priority. Certainly an opportunity for us to pick up some business we lost - if we can get people motivated to actually call on customers.

----

The big orange cat seems to be doing much better. His paws are mostly cleared and the litter box looks more normal. S18 agrees that keeping the toilet lid closed from now on will be important but - sigh - this morning it was right up. I don't think this is a passive aggressive move - it's just what he's always done and I know myself that those sort of habits are hard to change.

I had a chance to talk to him while he was trapped in the car while I was driving him to and from work. S had actually messaged me mid-afternoon asking if I would drive him. I reminded her that for now, all is "normal". I also mentioned that to S18 to reassure him that he can still get back and forth to work, still find food in the pantry etc. He joked that most of the food in the pantry probably came from the old apartment and he was looking for a snack the other day and yep - well expired.

I asked him about the government assistance program his mother had made him the list about. He seems to be looking at this as an opportunity. He has some friends who are already on this same program and is very confident that he qualifies. He's nervous of course but this is a huge step.

We also talked a bit about work and careers. One of his best friends did exceptionally well in high school - is on the same support program, works a generic retail job and is pretty happy. I think that for now S18 is going to focus on living his life. I talked about how the people who own the store across the street are very likely multi-millionaires and S18 mentioned that store managers seem to bring in pretty good coin.

He mentioned that his parents, especially his Dad go on about "wasted potential" but I think that S18 agrees with me that if you are happy and having your needs met then that's all good. We also talked about how just because you are in a particular job / career that that doesn't mean that you'll stay there forever. I think he felt fairly positive about it.

Since this was our first chance to talk since his mother told him about the split I was a bit nervous and I think he was too. I did talk about my future plans and how I may get a kitten in the spring "because that's probably all I can handle". The messaging I wanted to give him was that it wasn't him, nor even necessarily his mother. It was "my" inability to deal with living in that environment that was what led to the split. We have talked frequently, especially over this past month with it essentially being just the 2 so this wasn't a surprise to him at all.

I did also mention to him that even though I had given his mother a date of "New Years" for her and the boys to be out, that if there were delays with his government assistance program getting set up and him finding alternate housing that some minor accommodation could be made for a short time and the he didn't need to worry about being tossed out into the snow.

I have noodled around the idea of trying to teach him some more life-skills. He doesn't do his own laundry and given that S rarely does it either he's usually wearing dirty clothes. I also asked him if there were other things he was interested in learning how to cook and he suggested cheese bread - perhaps a bit ambitious.

I have no idea where S is or when she may be coming by. I did pack up a couple of more things - some takeout boxes from when she had a restaurant for a short period about 8 years ago. I'm itching to do more but won't just yet. I do think that once we pass New Year that I can get S26 to give me a hand to pack what is in the garage away so that I can use it again.

Others have suggested that S may well try to stretch things out, take advantage of me etc. All indications are no. She's essentially vanished. She can stay with her daughter or at her Dad's house. I honestly don't know and it really doesn't matter to me. I'm counting down the clock.

----

Well - time to get on with my day. The tea pot is empty.

I may look at getting some of my Christmas decorations out but might wait another week for that. I am going to check out some of the local shops in my village to see if they have some decor ideas for S26, pick up a six-pack at the brewery (so nice to not have to worry about that since smooching is right off the table) and do the usual cleaning and such that occupies my Saturdays. Given it's a nice day I may get in a walk too.

[Dawn70]

I don’t necessarily want to speak for others but I think the concern expressed about S stretching things out, for the most part, was more a concerned that she would leave all her stuff at your place as storage and whatever other various pets and children she could get away with dropping in your lap. I don’t get the impression that too many are under the impression S herself would try to stay on though, I wouldn’t be terribly surprised if she tried cozying up to you to get money or more storage time out of you.

While I applaud your efforts to work with her S18 and help him find his way, you are still covering for his mother and enabling her. You say you told him it wasn’t him (which is good because he doesn’t need that over his head and it wasn’t him so that is true), but you went on to say that it wasn’t even necessarily S but YOUR inability to live with that environment. I have said it before, Andrew....STOP THAT! First and foremost, reassuring him that he isn’t to blame is fine but you didn’t need to offer him any reason beyond ensuring that it wasn’t his fault. But you lied to him, Andrew. It is not just your inability to live with it. It is also S’s inability to be a good partner and meet someone halfway. I don’t necessarily think he needed to hear that, though I suspect he knows, but he also doesn’t need to hear that his mother is blameless IF you feel compelled to tell him anything. Yeah, he is technically an adult at 18, but my daughters are grown women and I don’t tell them the nitty gritty details of my love life.

You can continue to beat yourself up, self blame, try to look all gallant by saying it was all on you, but deep down you HAVE to know that it most certainly was NOT all on you. If you honestly think it was, then that is something you need to address with your IC. Relationships end. People don’t “gee haw” as my dad would say. People get hurt when that happens but it is rarely all on 1 person and most certainly in this case it took 2. If anyone is more to blame in all this, I think most of us would point the finger in S’s direction.

[Dawn70]

And by the way, before someone jumps in and tells me how wrong I am, when I said the hurt and blame is rarely on 1 person, I fully realize there are times when that is absolutely the case. I didn’t say it was never only on 1 and there are certainly a number of examples on these boards where 1 spouse was blind-sided by cheating and a WAS. My overall point is that in his situation, he was NOT the only 1 to blame and S certainly deserves to bear part of that burden (and likely even the larger part of it).

[AndrewP]

While I applaud your efforts to work with her S18 and help him find his way, you are still covering for his mother and enabling her. You say you told him it wasn’t him (which is good because he doesn’t need that over his head and it wasn’t him so that is true), but you went on to say that it wasn’t even necessarily S but YOUR inability to live with that environment. I have said it before, Andrew....STOP THAT!

Thanks for the kick Dawn.

I personally don't feel that I'm being a martyr or self-flagellating here. There's no good trying to demonize his mother - he knows better than I do what she is like. It's not an "oh puir me - wailly wailly wailly" going on here. It's a basic statement that I was unable to live with his mother. And it was my decision to end the relationship. I accept this and further details are not relevant to anyone other than me. Not even S in fact. Perhaps out there there is indeed a person who can deal with a hoarder who doesn't follow through. Who uses lies to smooth her way through the world and expects others to back her up on them. Who allows others to feed at the same trough she is at but tightly controls the one who is filling it. That's not me. No sense telling him, or anyone else any of that. I know that that sort of a relationship was not acceptable to me. But there's no sense colouring the rest of the world's opinion of S just to make me look good or to show that I'm a victim.

Her former partner seems to be willing to live with her although he has his own anger and other issues and was from S and the kids' point of view hard to live with too - so perhaps it's just not a good match. Just like if I was in a relationship with a jet-setting celebrity - "just a guy - standing in front of a gal - wondering where his clean laundry is ....."

((Dawn))

[Dawn70]

I wasn’t suggesting you should demonize his mother. In fact, I was suggesting the exact opposite and just leave any discussion of her out. If you HAD to say something to him, just assure that it is not his fault and then move on. I don’t really see why it was necessary to say anything to him about it. He’s a kid and kids shouldn’t be involved in adult relationships. He doesn’t need to know the mechanics. He just needs to know he can still rely on you and nothing that happened was his fault.

[bttrfly]

i get it. you're trying to sweep your side of the street clean and own your part. commendable. however, i think future discussions might be better if mention of the demise of your and S's relationship was left out. You could easily say, hey 18, you're a great kid. sometimes relationships just don't work out, but i want you to know it's not you at all. i think you're a great kid and i see how you're growing and becoming more independent. i'm proud of the effort you're making.

i'm sure he'd appreciate that.

re: S's vanishing act. Yeah, right outside of your hula hoop so not your business. Glad things are becoming more clear to you as there is more distance and detachment.

I'm wondering when your IC starts?

[AndrewP]

I'm wondering when your IC starts?

Dec 8th. S has her's on Dec 2nd. I offered to pay for 3 sessions.

[Ginger1]

She was going before she met you, why are you paying for 3 of her sessions? And why is she allowing that?

[Ginger1]

Or maybe she isn’t allowing it? But why did you offer it?

[kml]

I applaud your desire to help her S18 learn a few life skills. I’d say a good short list would be:
How to do his laundry (and perhaps how to fold them and organize a dresser drawer. )
How to cook a week’s worth of cheap healthy meals. (Recipes included)
How to keep a budget (I was gonna say “and balance a checkbook” lol - shows how old I am!!!!)
How to do basic cleaning like scrub a toilet, clean a stove, mop a floor - and a recommended cleaning schedule

[AndrewP]

She was going before she met you, why are you paying for 3 of her sessions? And why is she allowing that?

You'd have to ask her Like quite a few things, her history in counseling was perhaps presented as more than the actuality.

I offered it as the logical extension of the couples counseling. I put a cap on it and it was her choice to take me up on it. Personally I think that both of us will benefit from professional help and without me offering to pay she wouldn't have access to this.

It's a relatively small price to pay to help someone who I cared about move on. Certainly less than paying for her usual consumption of take-out food

[Ginger1]

Logical extension of your counseling which isn’t happening? And the decent thing to do so she could move on? She needs IC to move on and she needs you to pay for it?
And this is the woman who takes pride in not financially taking advantage of her partners?

But I don’t care about her. Stop. Rescuing. Stop rationalizing ways you try to take responsibility for her. Or try to nice her. You aren’t her dad. Your “nice guy” is really out of control. It’s going to leave you totally broke. Please work on this stuff in IC.

This might be hard to hear but your break up did not cause her world to fall apart. She does not need therapy to move on with you. Sure, you are a great guy, but her world is destroyed now. She doesn’t need pity money or grand ge stores or even small gestures. You continue to try to “rescue “ her beyond your break up.

And I was thinking exactly what dawn was thinking. We weren’t afraid you were going to stretch the actual relationship. Just the part of her using you. Using your home as a storage facility. And what is her plan for her S18? Is she going to take him until he gets this assistance and finds housing? Or is it now your job to ensure he gets proper housing beyond this breakup. I can’t even believe he wears dirty clothes because no one ( and yes, he should be washing his laundry) is cleaning them or taught him. When he was 16 and on his own , who the heck washed his clothes? Was the poor kid going to school with dirty clothes. This is child neglect.

It seems as if he was left to fend for himself and figure it out most of his life. I’m afraid it’s going to become your responsibility now. I’m afraid you are going to allow it too

[Ginger1]

I also don’t want to invalidate you finally seeing her true colors. That’s great. But the work on your end now is now to not rush into things, get to know a persons actions, not words, and not to rescue or even “raise” women like they are your teenage daughters. And recognize why you are driven to do this. It’ll be hard work, but worth it

[job]

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Rebuilding and renewal - 1