Courage - part 2

[job]

I agree w/Ginger. Since she's dealing with the estate of her father, I would give her no more than March. I would also think about packing up some of that stuff in the living room/dining room and moving the boxes on the porch. Now is the time to start reclaiming your home/space. As for the rug...you may need to get a new one. Remember one of the things that we tell newbies over on the MLC forum if the spouse is still living at home...treat them as roommates.

Andrew, I think you have more than accepted your half of the issues in this relationship. You really have been a gentleman in allowing her and the two boys, as well as the pets to live there. You've given the relationship enough time to realize that it's not going to work, so please stop beating yourself up over the loss of this relationship. To be perfectly honest w/you, I had hoped she would wake up and realize what she had...but she didn't...it's her loss.

I agree w/Dawn...get your banking straightened out now, not later.

Enjoy your day and do not worry...S will be back around soon. Right now, she's in her own little world and isn't worried about anything but herself and the estate.

[bttrfly]

That's a bit harsh ((Dawn)). I'm glad I have you to give me a kick in the arse. One thing we are taught here as newcomers is to take ownership of our own failings and that stuck with me. While I do take ownership of my side of the street, I do agree that I gave it a good try but that it was just too much for me to deal with.

No. It isn't. Not in the least bit harsh. It's the truth, with no bark on it, Andrew and you're not comfortable with it. Ok, but that doesn't make it any less factual.

As we are also taught, we can't control other people and to me that also involves not casting blame or stones. DnJ has been a mentor to us all on that matter I feel

Andrew, that's a sly twisting of things. No, we cannot control anyone else, but it's an absolute disservice to both you and the person in question not to assign responsibility squarely where it belongs. Stop the BS. You're enabling her. I'll even go further: get off the cross, Andrew. It doesn't suit you.

I just sent off S an email listing dates and items - echoes of separating from my ex and getting her crap out of the house. That took a looong time too. I put in that whatever isn't picked up by the start of May will be "disposed of" by my brothers and I.

The one was your WIFE, and had been with you for decades. This is NOT your wife but a predatory woman who forced the issue and played you. She will take every second of time you're willing to give her and likely push for more. If you don't want it to take a long time, set a shorter deadline.

I am confident that if I don't set a schedule and plan that there won't be one. Hopefully S actually reads that email - she has a (to me) horribly unorganized inbox but does seem to manage to see things related to the kids and school and whatnot. I've set dates for things to be out, dates when I'll be turning off streaming services etc and put in nothing about what she should / could do other than moving where her loan payment comes out and suggesting she pay it off if she can. That's for her to figure out and TBH I don't want to be responsible or involved.

Yes, if you don't make a schedule and plan there won't be one. Didn't you also make a chore chart? How'd that work for you?

Regarding not wanting to be responsible or involved in the loan - you co-signed, so you are without question legally responsible AND involved. Better make sure you insist on getting yourself legally out of that mess or you will be left holding the bag.

For me it's good to put these things down in an essentially emotionless email. I had to work on not being too accommodating and giving in on things that I'm not asked to give in on. I did say that I was open to discussing specific items but will be surprised if S comes back with anything on that other than perhaps shifting the move-out date.

It was a good start. I'm sure as time progresses and with the benefit of input from an IC you may change some of that plan.

No clue what's going on with S. She said that she was going to visit her D26 for a few days and was vague about when she would be here. We do have an app Life360 that was intended so that she could see when I was going to and from work and it shows her as still at her Dad's house. I just uninstalled it - there's no reason to know where she is nor her me. She's said multiple times that she finds it a bit intrusive.

I think deleting that was a great idea. And while on the subject of comings and goings, you absolutely have every right to be concerned about the uptick of Covid and are well within your rights to limit her access to your home if you think she's likely to have exposed herself through her D19 or anyone else.

Banking where I'll mention to the staff about the separation so they can keep an eye open,

You could make this none of anyone else's business by just taking care of it yourself today. Remove her. Period. Or change savings accounts, close the joint one and reduce the joint checking to a number you're comfortable losing if she drained the account. You are no longer a couple. The rest is just details. Stop any financial exposure. Take care of YOURSELF. Trust that she will (and always does) take care of herself. It's not your job - she isn't inside your hula hoop. You are. Budget for a new rug when she and the pets are finally gone.

You're making progress Andrew but seriously, cut the alleged "nice guy" crap - there is absolutely nothing nice about enabling S, as you are doing. You are actually causing her quite a bit of harm by doing so and dragging things out way past their expiration date. Focus on YOU. Squarely. Totally. Completely.

[kml]

change savings accounts, close the joint one and reduce the joint checking to a number you're comfortable losing if she drained the account. You are no longer a couple. The rest is just details. Stop any financial exposure. Take care of YOURSELF.

Agreed. Do this. Your friendly bankers have no ability to stop her from draining the account so long as she’s on it.

[DonH]

Great advice and comments from Butterfly, Dawn, Job, Ginger and others. I'm not sure I can add much more on the specifics. But looking at the larger pictures, I fear things are just never going to change Andrew. Do you even want them to? I'm not saying you need to or even should become some different person. But how has all of this worked out for you? And do you want it to continue? If not, why then keep doing the same things over and over?

Of everyone here and from what it sounds like pretty much everyone in your personal life, is anyone surprised at what happened? Anyone? We pretty much all told you it would happen. Yet you gave us excuse after excuse including something about if you don't try you will never get anything. But it was all so clear - just as it's now much more clear to you in hindsight. If only you had listened. But hey, we all screw up. But why keep not listening?

It's almost as if you change your behavior, you admit what you did was not a good move. And stretching way into an area I have zero training in, I have to wonder if in some odd way you are trying to honor your father by being just like him. If you were to admit you are not making the best choices, you then have to admit he didn't either. I've seen this in several friends. I mean, who doesn't want to look up to their father?

You can't change the past but you certainly can change the future - but only if you change your actions. As Butterfly very clearly puts it "You're making progress Andrew but seriously, cut the alleged "nice guy" crap." I'm not sure it's alleged - i think it's more a defense mechanism. One to say "I'm still in control, I'm still aware, I'm still me making sound decisions and what I do makes good sense." I think you will get through this mess with S. My huge fear is for the next one. Your patterns are clearly established and just about in cement. And it's getting worse. C, may have been the most normal, though many of us will argue whether that was any sort of a dating or romantic thing rather than just a platonic friendship. Although she too was still married. Then B (also still married) took things a step farther down the quality ladder, followed by S (also still married and for the 4th time) who was really a big step down the quality ladder below the level you should ever be partnering with. I shutter to think who could be next.

I'm hopeful a good C can help you with this - as long as you can set aside your stubbornness with this new C, and with those here and IRL trying to help you and just admit, you're not at all good at picking women and at this R stuff. Once you do, I think you can get much better at it. But hey, it's your choice. You can keep saying all of us are wrong and your way is the right way, and paying the price, or say, HELP me and I will listen.

S does not need over 6 months to get out. Heck that's longer than she's lived there! She needs to pay off the loan that you somehow got on the hook for. She needs to have zero access to YOUR MONEY. She clearly should never have been placed on your will but at least needs to be off by midnight Monday. She's obviously not crying herself to sleep or totally broken up over your breakup. If she were, she'd be contacting you, she'd be trying. Instead if you didn't' reach out to her, you'd likely not hear from her until the next time she decided to waltz through your door, kids and pets in tow. And $500 for uber eats? Clearly this woman has zero ability to value or budget money. She was just not given that gene - that's clear.

I could go on and on but again the others have laid it out even clearer than I have. Set a plan, get S out of your life, get a good C to help you get better at this and it's likely there is someone out there you can spend time with - notice I didn't say place on your will and move into your house in the first months - just spend some time with. There is a huge difference.

[AndrewP]

Sheesh bttrfly - slow down. As much as you and others may disagree, I believe that I've got this even if I am walking a bit of a tightrope right now.

I have a huge amount of fondness for my friends here who stand up for me, kick me when they feel I need it, even if I don't always agree. I know that generally it's done from a place of caring and concern.

One thing I was thinking about just now was the fact that pretty much for my entire life I've had this odd relationship with the fairer sex. Even when I was young I was looked on as someone who perhaps wasn't all that bright with regards to inter-personal relationship and who needed to be protected. Diss me and there would be an army of females coming to my defense. My ex-wife in particular was particularly militant about that sometimes with unfortunate consequences. That contrasts though to the common reaction when I appear to have made up my mind about something and then people tend to get out of the way especially including those same people who were defending me. Weird. Something to explore perhaps with my therapist. It may be tied perhaps to an un-diagnosed Asperger's which I know we explored here a few years ago. A former colleague of mine who has a son with Asperger's assured me that I don't show any of the signs.

Professionally I've been told more than once that one of my strongest attributes is gravitas and the appearance of competence. There's been more than one meeting that I've walked out of and just shaken my head that "boy I sounded like I knew what I was talking about".

Ah well - if we knew how human beings worked we wouldn't need forums like this.

As far as the timelines to - it comes down in part to weather. We can get viscous storms here through February and March. I'm also allowing a certain amount of time for S to get her legacy so that she can afford storage.

One thing that I know about hoarders and used this with my ex-wife is that they are very attached to their stuff and will defend it and protect it. The blunt statement that my brothers will help me dispose of things in May will be effective. Again - people believe that once I have spoken on a matter that there is no possibility of negotiation. Which still baffles me. But I fully expect and will enable loads of stuff to go from here to elsewhere - probably including things not intended to leave - through the winter.

I talked to the clerk at my bank today and based on her recommendation I have opened up another account that my pay will be deposited into and I'll transfer those savings that I can't risk over - probably on Monday or Tuesday once the paperwork is filled out. I'll also make an appointment in mid-December to close things out and sort everything around. Given the nature of the branch I deal with, everyone there now knows my situation and I can count on them to watch my back. I'll have to shuffle things around to make it work but that's small potatoes compared to figuring out the stuff I do every day professionally.

Even if I wasn't a decent guy, one thing that I know is that in an - ahem - p!ss!ng match that everyone gets wet. And it needs one prick to get it started. I need S's cooperation to get this all sorted out. And I do quite value my own belief in myself as a decent guy.

I got another confirmation that S is shaking the dust from this relationship off her boots. I mentioned to a mutual friend - the lady who runs the bake-shop around the corner that we have split "because it was just too much for me" and she already knew. She didn't seem surprised.

Worried still about how S18 will deal with this. In the past month without his mother here we've become closer. He really takes to heart now my constant harping on healthy food and avoiding processed foods. He's gone from eating pre-done food to making sandwiches which I'm taking as a victory especially since he is now asking for deli cuts. I teased him this afternoon that soon I'll get him putting lettuce on the sandwiches. He was very positive when I showed him the ham I have out thawing for tomorrow to go with baked potatoes. Let's hope that this will instill in him the idea that healthy food isn't hard.

The play list right now is "With a little help from my friends" sung by Joe Cocker. An old friend of mine actually saw his performance of this at Woodstock. It's nice to know that I have friends there who are looking out for me even when I don't think I need it. I really appreciate it.

[kml]

Joe Cocker at Woodstock - great stuff there.

You know, you can remain friends with S18 after this is all done if he so desires. Hopefully this glimpse he’s gotten of how a mature responsible man lives will give him something to shoot for.

[bttrfly]

there's nothing to slow down about ... there are definite reasons why I suggested alanon meetings to you. it's a place to go where you can learn what's yours and what isn't, and how to stay on the right side of that blurry line between being supportive and enabling.

[job]

One last reminder...be sure to speak to the institution that has the "loan" on file. Tell them what has happened with the relationship and that you want to have your name removed from that account asap, that you are no longer going to be responsible for her loan. Even if you can't get your name removed, it will let them know that she's no longer in a relationship with you If I were S, I would pay that loan off as soon as possible.

[DonH]

One last reminder...be sure to speak to the institution that has the "loan" on file. Tell them what has happened with the relationship and that you want to have your name removed from that account asap.

Lol oh sure, and I’m certain they will just say, no problem, we’ll be happy to remove the co-signer and eat the losses for you. Yeah, NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. This is business. This is life. Andrew may be willing to take the loss but most of the rest of the world and all of the business world is not. They decided that S was not worthy of a loan. Andrew was. So while S got the money, Andrew is on the hook for it and they are not going to let him off until every last dollar is paid back. I swear far too many want to live in this nice, loving world they have in their mind where people are willing to do all sorts of things for their neighbor. Might be nice but it’s simply not reality. We have to deal with and live in the world we have. More power to anyone who wants to work to change it but living as if it’s already changed will not work out. The only chance here is to pressure S to pay it back/off. If she fails to do so and has no assets, they will come after Andrew who has the assets. That’s how this works.

[Ginger1]

This is unfortunately true. Banks don’t care that they broke up. They knew S did not have the credit to risk the loan, so they would only take it with a co-signer. They don’t care if the co-signer is in a relationship or not. If she defaults or is late on payments, they are coming after Andrew, broken up or not. Just like when parents co-sign a loan. Parents can’t break up with their kids and be excused from the responsibility responsibility they signed for.

Andrew, this was not a wise move at all financially. You didn’t really know the ins and outs of her situation or her take on money when you did this. You were, of course, just trying to rescue. Let’s just pray she sees value in repaying her loans, and repaying her loans on time, because that’s the only possible way you will be off the hook for this loan