I know your writing is a process and helps you work through things. I get it. I'm like that. If I'm really stressed about something or making a decision, I write things down. It helps me process. I even do that with my lesson plans because it helps me talk through them and see if there are any missing pieces that might negatively affect the students' grasp of the concept(s). So, having said that, I don't know if you really want comments or what, but I do know you read them, so I want to just respond to a few things that stood out in your post.
You mention that you are on another board where they have been supportive of you but negative towards S. I honestly believe that you have been honest in your portrayal of her, but I don't think you have been overly negative and the seemingly skewed negative view of S, in my mind, is more about who she is than how you have portrayed her. In my mind, as I read your posts and your descriptions, the picture I have painted in my head of S is one of a user. When you were describing her D's boyfriend as a taker yesterday I kept thinking it didn't bother S because she is the same person. Regular people don't behave that way. I don't think negative perceptions of S are your fault so much as they are her actions (or lack of actions as the case may be).
You also mention (and not for the first time) that she has a ton of self-help books so you assume she is well-informed on the topic of relationships. Come on now, Andrew....you know what assuming does, don't you? It makes an a$$ of u and me. Surely you have heard that before. For me, I think that kind of boils down to why I don't like S. Everything she does is for show. She tells you repeatedly she wants to start a business. She has a vast library of books on all sorts of topics to give the illusion that she is well read and well informed on a variety of things. She lives off the government and whoever will support her and doesn't work. She claims to have all of these health issues but doesn't seek help for them. Why wouldn't she listen to son in law about exercises to help her back if he is a massage therapist? Surely he knows what he is talking about and has received at least a modicum of training in that field. I'll tell you why....because it is ALL for show. She plays the victim, the "oh woe is me" single mom with all the kids and pets just trying to do her best in this big ole cruel world. Yet, while she has lived in and destroyed your house with her hoarding, she has squirreled away $3000 for what? She was paying a loan and a car note before you rode in on your white horse and saved her. I still don't understand where she was getting all of her money from if she wasn't working. Presumably she can't work because of her issues, but then why can't she help more around the house? Oh right, her issues. Sadly, issues that have been passed on to her children. I think I feel sorriest for S18. S13 is probably at the rebel teenager stage where a mom who is pretty absent even when she is physically present is the way to go for him (not good for him mind you, but good in his mind because he can do whatever he darn well pleases).
Everyone has baggage and everyone has issues. Some people just have more than their fair share and some people are messy with how they handle theirs. I don't mean messy as in actually messy (though in this case, the hoarding is a physical messiness), but messy in the young, hip sense of the word for someone who doesn't have their crap together. S is plenty old enough to know how the world works and to participate fully in taking care of herself and her children but she's never had to and you gave her yet another out to not have to when you came along. She saw you coming and snapped you up. I don't think S is an evil person. I'm sure she has some lovely and charming qualities or she wouldn't be able to attract the attention of men repeatedly. But, I do think, in general, she is a taker and is proficient at taking advantage of people and situations to get what she needs. Look at her kids: the oldest daughter seems to be the least affected by the chaos and seems to have a fairly regular life from your brief descriptions of her. Other daughter is "pretty" and seems to rely on that and she and her taker boyfriend don't work and couch surf to get by. Does that sound like someone else? S18 has a boat load of issues, not the least of which is an underlying loathing of his mother and who she is and I honestly can't say I blame him because it seems like, in some ways, she has crippled him to living a "normal" life. With all of her gluten issues and his other issues and she is just giving him prepackaged crap? Come on now....I'm not even a "real" mom and I know you don't feed your kids junk and expect them to flourish. It just doesn't work that way. I suspect S13 is actually the one who will suffer the most because he is really at that formative time in his life and he is allowed to run loose. I suspect that as he gets older he will run with a progressively worse crowd and he'll end up experimenting and doing a lot of things he really shouldn't be doing. But, I don't say all that to make you feel bad. These are NOT your kids! They are her kids and it is time she step up and deal with them. She needs to get over herself, get her issues under control, and be a mom to her children. She is not doing them any favors. It is sad really, but I think in ending your relationship, as difficult as it is, you have really done yourself a huge favor because you won't be saddled with dealing with everyone's issues for the rest of your life.
Oh and I agree with everything Westo said. If I was trying to win someone over, I would be on my BEST girlfriend/wife behavior and I would be cleaning til my hands were blotched from bleach stains and the house smelled like sunshine and roses and yummy baked goods. I would be sexing the guy up often and I would be doing anything and everything in my power to make darn sure he knew I loved him and cared for him and wanted to make his life easier and better. When you love and care about someone and want to make their life easier, you do not burden them with all of your crap. That is not love...that is using someone.
Me 52, H53 Bomb drop 9/29/2014 Divorce from XH final 12/17/2014 Marriage #2 12/31/2019 5 adult (step)daughters (3 from XH's first marriage, 2 from current H's previous relationships) 6 grandkids
I still find it odd how S just accepted the fact that it's not working and never seemed to try to dig into the "why".
She knows why. And she's not motivated to change that. Hoarders are VERY resistant to change and unwilling to give up their stuff - that's the disease. I'm pretty sure if you had flat out told her "the stuff goes or I do" she would have chosen to keep the stuff.
Also - an experience I think many of us have had with our WASs is that many of them lived their "best lives" with us - that is, being with us caused them to elevate their game. Maybe to be more responsible and upright than they really were. Eventually that seems to wear on many of them, and when they leave, they slide into their natural selves, the ones they were fighting to contain. Like they were always trying to fit their square peg into a round hole, and now they don't have to bother. As much as we all think you were doing the right thing by S by trying to teach her to budget etc. - she's probably more comfortable in her own chaotic life. Some people don't really want help. S certainly doesn't seem to want to change, and I don't think it's all about the hoarding either, although that's a big part.
And no, I don't think you presented her in a negative light. If anything, we had to tease out of you what was really going on. I'm not sure she's a "conscious" predator - more likely someone who has just bumbled her way through life by getting other people to pick up the tab. You gave her the benefit of the doubt about many things, but when given the opportunity to rise above her circumstances, she was a combination of unwilling and incapable. Not everyone wants rescuing - many just want enabling.
As for her S18 - you might have a conversation with him sometime about hoarding. About how it's a disease, and difficult to treat. It might help him put his childhood into some context. It doesn't excuse the rest of her bad parenting.
Oh - and regards S18 - I don't think you ever answered this question of mine. Here in the US you can "test out" of high school by passing a high school equivalency exam. You can then attend junior college if college is your goal, or a trade school. Most employers would treat it as equivalent to a high school diploma. If S18 has enough knowledge to pass the exam it might help him get unstuck and moving forward with his own life.
Oh - and regards S18 - I don't think you ever answered this question of mine. Here in the US you can "test out" of high school by passing a high school equivalency exam. You can then attend junior college if college is your goal, or a trade school. Most employers would treat it as equivalent to a high school diploma. If S18 has enough knowledge to pass the exam it might help him get unstuck and moving forward with his own life.
He and I have talked about it. He is intending on going on to some sort of higher education program although he has no clue of what. Both his parents are university graduates and there's an "expectation".
On the other hand none of the other kids have gone on to higher education. D26 - who is the most capable of the lot travelled the world, lived in an old school bus in a commune and works as a waitress. S23 I know little of as he lives in Australia and there is little contact between him and his mother. He was a troubled kid, moved in with his older sister as a teen, went to some sort of cooking trade school and now makes pizza on the East coast of Australia. D19 got through high school with much assistance from some really capable teachers. She has a comprehension disability that affects her ability to read textbooks etc. She's an "aspiring model and actor". She did work at an auto-plant for a while.
So there's not a lot of history of academic success in front of him and add on to that his ADD, behavioural issues (got into lots of fights at school) plus high anxiety, I don't have a lot of confidence in him doing well in an unstructured post-secondary environment. His father has been essentially absent from his life and isn't a model of how a higher education can benefit people.
I've pushed that the blue-collar life can be pretty good. My own son who is plenty bright seems fairly happy driving a forklift and getting free ice-cream from time to time.
Personally I have the feeling that he'll cruise through life working minimum wage jobs plus a bit of government subsidy for his mental health issues. I also think that he continues to be at risk for suicide which I understand was a real concern two years ago. At 18 he will have the real choice on if he goes with his mother or not. His dad would love to stop paying child support for him I know.
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Oh - and S's income has 3 sources. Substantial child support, fairly minor spousal support (both from the younger kid's dad) and the government baby bonus program which S18 has aged out of.
S is in my belief capable of holding down a decent job. Pretty good with numbers, outgoing and pleasant. Knowledgeable on a variety of topics related to food and health. She's limited herself in some ways by her very real pain issues which she seems to manage with when it matters to her and having a pack of special needs kids all of whom don't require constant supervision although S13 needs a kick in the arse to keep him moving with his online school. When we met she was supporting 3 kids plus D19's boyfriend. Now it's really just S13. And I think the odds are non-zero of his Dad taking custody.
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Lunch over. Creamy tomato soup and grilled cheese. Favourite comfort food. S it turned out had taken ALL the cheese with her so I had to pop to the shop across the street for more. She took a "lot" of food when she left on Sunday - she may well be planning on surviving a siege. I expect some of that is just pettiness as the amount of food she would buy was a source of conflict between us.
Oh - and Dawn - please feel free to comment and "tell it like it is" - listening to the echoes inside my own head isn't productive.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
I agree totally with what Dawn and Westo have posted.
Andrew, if you need to write about what is going on in your life and in your head, then by all means do so. Some of us have to do that while others have to find other outlets to help us figure things out.
I do have to agree that before S moved into your home, she was paying rent, car loans and repaying a loan to one of her former spouses. If she could do that before, she most certainly can do it again. The problem for her is that she has gotten use to you, Andrew, being the kind hearted man that you are and paying for most, if not all of the stuff during her time there. She's lived like a queen, i.e., not having to worry about rent, utilities, groceries, etc. You were her knight that came to the rescue, hence, she's got to get back into the groove of living on her own with her two sons, as well as all of those animals and she better take that freezer that has the deceased pets in it, and all of her "stuff". I don't think she'll find another landlord that will put up with all of that mess. However, that is on her to figure that out.
Your job is to be you. Your job will be to enforce a move out date and not become a storage facility and/or the bank/ATM for her. She's had plenty of practice and knows exactly what to do.
BTW, I didn't much care for her trying to guilt you because you were calling it quits. If she cared at all about her children and you, she would have made every effort to work with you and keep the house tidy, meals on the table and cleaning up as well as going to bed at a reasonable hour and getting up before 10ish. No, she really didn't put forth much effort in the relationship, i.e., it looked more like a business deal to me and not one of love and wanting to work together.
Andrew, you are a good guy, but do not allow her manipulation from here on out to get to you. You've called it quits and do not second guess yourself.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Therapy booked - December 8th. A bit longer of a wait than what I wanted but this counselor came highly recommended by the couples counselor and I'll probably be even more in the middle of the @#$-storm then than I am now. I'm going to do the initial appointment in person - masked and somewhat distant. I think that body language is an important part of communication. And if I'm going to have a longer term relationship with this therapist - something that is probably a good idea given how much I need to sort out, starting it well is a good idea I think.
Got the living room and hallway rugs shampooed after work. I used an enzyme that "eats" pet urine smell in the mix. Hopefully that will get the stink gone. The unit that S bought and said she is intending on using long term was barely up to the task given the pet hair involved. I gave the shampooer a good cleaning after, took it apart and removed the clogged up hair. It's well designed but would need regular maintenance to keep it in good shape. Something that I don't expect to happen.
The dining room rug also probably needs a good shampoo but there's a lot more immovable stuff in there and I'm pretty much giving up on being able to use that room until the New Year. If worse comes to worse, I get new rugs. I only have 3.
I'm figuring that I'll need a new stove as S is very attached to her's but I can probably pick up a decent one used for not too much. An old one without electronics would suit me just fine and be preferred. If she takes the kitchen and dining room tables, I can take my huge desk out of the office and put it in the kitchen. I wanted a new, smaller desk anyway. And I can manage without a fully furnished formal dining room for a while too I'm sure. I'd been intending on re-imagining how I use the house anyway.
I'm figuring that I'll try to reclaim a bit more of the house day by day knowing that there will be set-backs as S drifts in and out. The urge to get boxes and sort and organize is strong but I'm resisting for now. If she asks I will pack though - I don't want to barrier.
Still no word from S and frankly I'm not expecting one. I am hoping that by the time she comes back this weekend or early next week that she'll have a place found and a plan. I believe that the odds of that are pretty good - if her intention was to try to work on things or keep me on the hook there would have been some sign of that going back to October when this all initially came to a head. Instead there's been a steady distancing and a lack of me chasing after. The plans are all for her to make - could well be life-changing as they are much less kid dependent. Personally I'm expecting her to move close to her oldest daughter to have that support network and to be close to her grand-babies. She had been intending on doing something similar when we were first dating.
It's going to be odd when she comes back - for who knows how long but I honestly don't expect more than a day or so. Her old bed is in S13's room and there's lots of room in there for both of them if she chooses that route too which would be reasonable. I reinforced the frame when I put it together.
I can't wait to get my house back and my life back on track and know that I will need to be firm and patient - things that I am actually capable of doing Sometimes. Usually. With effort and a lot of writing and agonizing to be honest.
Originally Posted by kml
Quote
and she better take that freezer that has the deceased pets in it
Oh lord yes.
How much could it cost to cremate them anyway???
I'm not sure what the disposition of S18's bird bodies will be. One of the things I have as an option is to just have S take the whole freezer plus much of the contents. I had been thinking of getting rid of it anyway. I would be willing to bury the pets in a space S18 would designate as well which would probably have to wait until spring. I've been told that he has major super anxiety about it which may or may not be the case this far out. It's not for me to pass judgement on that nor deal with it.
There are a lot of things that will need to be decided by S and her family in terms of dealing with their life and possessions going forward that are right out of my hands.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Sometimes. Usually. With effort and a lot of writing and agonizing to be honest.