LH - I agree and that is so freaking insane. I was really struggling last night as she was talking about how she is not a selfish person and how she does everything for everyone else.
LH - I agree and that is so freaking insane. I was really struggling last night as she was talking about how she is not a selfish person and how she does everything for everyone else.
Remember, her version of reality is HER version of reality. Don't try to change her mind, reason with her, correct it. Understand what her perception and then do you!
Speaking of doing you, I am still seeing you struggle with GAL. What are your plans for staying busy this week?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
LH - I agree and that is so freaking insane. I was really struggling last night as she was talking about how she is not a selfish person and how she does everything for everyone else.
Like Steve said that is her reality and to an extent she’s right. But that’s what she wanted to do when her body was producing lots of estrogen which is a nurturing hormone. Now with her body producing less she doesn’t want to do that anymore which makes her want to do things for herself. She feels a new life with a new man will bring her happiness. My bet is that it will not. Only time will tell.
LH - You seem to be all over this. Do you want to call her?
Steve - Me and the kids head to florida on 11/22 for a week, and then the new custody arrangement begins after that and she will no longer be in the house. So GAL is happening fast and soon, I'm not going to push it these next two weeks.
I've also given in and called my Doctor to discuss anxiety meds. I didn't want to make that call but between this board and a friend of mine, not to mention my inability to get to work and work, I believe its a good decision. I hate the idea but I can't let this thing get out of control. Really a tough tough call for me. Appointment is this afternoon.
LH - You seem to be all over this. Do you want to call her?
Steve - Me and the kids head to florida on 11/22 for a week, and then the new custody arrangement begins after that and she will no longer be in the house. So GAL is happening fast and soon, I'm not going to push it these next two weeks.
I've also given in and called my Doctor to discuss anxiety meds. I didn't want to make that call but between this board and a friend of mine, not to mention my inability to get to work and work, I believe its a good decision. I hate the idea but I can't let this thing get out of control. Really a tough tough call for me. Appointment is this afternoon.
Wait, not going to push GAL: these next 2 weeks? When that is the time you SHOULD be GAL. Scott, you have struggled mightily, and I believe that is a big reason why....you've been terrible at GAL.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I would love to talk some sense into your W but she’s past the point of no return. Unfortunately her journey is scripted and the outcome is very predictable. I’ve studied this stuff immensely because I had to understand why my family was be broken apart and I had zero control of it. What really helps if you understand that your on a journey that may take you places you have never dreamed you could go. This is not a death sentence by any means. Just not the life you planned.
Scott this was a few pages ago but I'm just now catching up.
Originally Posted by ScottB
She was so agitated that she said we were not going to be able to go through mediation and that we would just have to let our attorneys figure everything out. She said that I always get what I want and that I was not willing to compromise on anything. I remained calm as she raised her voice.
This is very, very typical. WAS's have this fantasy in their head about how perfect and smooth everything will go. She fully expected you to agree with everything and rubber stamp it. Anything else is unacceptable to her WAS-polluted mind. Argue even the tiniest point and it sends her ranting and raving. Unfortunately this is life with a WAS. Expect more of this type of behavior. When we talk about "getting off the roller coaster" what we mean is while she rides the ups and downs, you stay off to the side on terra firma. She's all over the place, you are solid and stable. DO NOT let her browbeat you into accepting anything less than a fair settlement. Do your homework. Know what you want. If she screams and gets agitated and waves her arms around then listen and validate, but STAND YOUR GROUND. A lot of people think "validate" means "give her what she wants", no that is not it at all. Validating simply means reaffirming her FEELINGS, not her demands. "You seem upset, I am sure this all must be very upsetting for you, I am sorry you feel that way." "So you'll sign my version then?" "No, I've made changes that I think are reasonable and fair." "YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO HAVE WHAT YOU WANT BLAH BLAH BLAH" Always remember that she should not be allowed to tread on your boundaries. If she yells, then warn her once and then walk away. "I am sorry you are upset but I will not tolerate being yelled at, if you can discuss this calmly then I am willing, but if you yell at me again then we will take a break and discuss this another time."
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With the changes I said that it would lay the basis for our custody document. She was trying to say that wasn’t true and that this was just a temporary agreement until we worked through the divorce with the mediator.
Here's what my lawyer told me when I was in the stage you're in, whatever precedences are set in the separation will be HEAVILY considered by the court for the final divorce agreement. And not only that, but I've seen it play out that way too. What you agree to informally CAN AND WILL be used against you later. I've seen men here that wanted 50-50 custody but let their WW coerce them into less, telling them the kids need their mom during this transition or whatever, and that it's just temporary and they will work out the permanent arrangement later. Guess what happens? Months go by and they go to court and the judge says "You've only been seeing the kids every other weekend, why do you think you deserve 50-50 now? You've shown that you are willing to accept the custody arrangement the way it is now, and the court doesn't believe it's in the best interest of the children to upset their schedule." Believe me, the judge won't care one hoot about what promises she made to you before, that falls under the category of "he said she said". The court will consider actions and history, not words and promises.
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I unfortunately lied and said that my attorney had told me that it would be the basis for the custody agreement. That really pissed her off and sent her to the moon as she said “I didn’t think we were getting attorneys involved in this.” I tried to explain that the document was written in a way that included custody and financial arrangements that I could not sign and agree to. She said that we didn’t have to sign it.
You're not in the business of placating her. You need to make sure you're protected and the kids are protected. I'm not saying to go for more than you think it fair, but I am saying you need to understand your rights and a lawyer will help you navigate that. Also the divorce process itself is pretty cumbersome and it's not as simple as walking in the court and high fiving the judge and walking out. The paperwork has to be done just so, the process has to be followed, things have to be filed a certain way with certain people, etc. Even if the two of you agree on everything, you still need a lawyer to help you with that.
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She’s very angry that i would discuss this with other people and she feels that it should be kept between us.
Hire a lawyer. Inform her that you hired one not to fight her, but just to help with this process. Whether she likes it or not is immaterial. If you decide to build a house you consult a contractor. If you decide to get surgery you consult a doctor. This is no different, you're just consulting a professional on matters you don't have expertise in.
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As we tried to review the document she sat in her chair with arms crossed and left the computer on the ottoman as though it was up to me to complete the document. She was basically pulling away showing that she was done with the conversation.
"You look agitated, would you like to continue or would you rather take a break and discuss this another time?"
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On several occasions she brought up past conversations.
"We're trying to resolve this separation agreement, we can discuss that if you wish but I would suggest we save that for another time so we can focus on this."
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She mentioned that she had begun to make a spreadsheet of items in the house.
Good, that is exactly what the two of you should do. I asked my XW to make a list of the things she wanted to take so we could discuss it. She did exactly that. We agreed on most of it, there were a few things I wanted to keep so I asked her if she was willing for me to buy her replacement items instead since I would have to buy replacements anyway. She agreed to that and we spent a day shopping for furniture which I paid for (we had separate bank accounts our entire marriage).
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She made it clear that she was upset that she was disinvited from Thanksgiving, though she didn’t want to go anyways. But she expressed she was upset about that. I believe the same goes for my work dinner Saturday based in her tone.
Just validate, don't argue about it or tell her she can goes if she wants to. "I am sorry you are upset, I can understand why you feel that way."
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I stayed calm through the conversation. I thanked her over and over again for the work she had done in the agreement trying to show gratitude.
It's great that you stayed calm, but this isn't the place to show gratitude. If you're trying to appeal to her "words of affirmation" love language then do it about the kids, tell her what a great mom she is and how much the kids enjoy her cooking or help with homework or whatever. Don't thank her for the separation/ divorce.
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I tried to listen and validate as best I could. I tried to show gratitude and be calm and gentle as I could. I tried to be strong and not cave. I did say I’m sorry about five times in different spots. It’s so hard to stop when I’m so used to it.
And don't apologize either. Validation isn't apologizing. I mean you can tell her you're sorry she's feeling XYZ, that is different. That's validation, not an apology. You're sorry for how she is FEELING, not for whatever she thinks you did wrong.
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I've also given in and called my Doctor to discuss anxiety meds. I didn't want to make that call but between this board and a friend of mine, not to mention my inability to get to work and work, I believe its a good decision. I hate the idea but I can't let this thing get out of control. Really a tough tough call for me. Appointment is this afternoon.
I understand, I felt the same way. But I am very thankful I went to the doc and got those prescriptions, it helped me cope at a time I could not. And it helped me get back to my old self much more quickly.
AS - so my doc recommended Prozac. Don’t know anything about it. Maybe a sleep led, but as he described it I wasn’t sure. There were some other medicines he talked about but he said I wouldn’t be able to drink - so I said forget that. Not sure what I’m going to do.
Today was the toughest day I’ve had in months. I didn’t want to go into work so I talked to a friend or three for the first two hours of my day and then I got a call from a customer who told me HE was getting divorced and his story was exactly the same as mine. Wife met a dude at the gym...found her phone log, she was calling him everyday for extended periods of time... found that the local Hilton had been visited. It was like PTSD for me and sent me off the reservation.
I went and talked to a friend who gave me a beer and then we went for a two hour walk. I want this over.
Also, found a recipe tin my safe for her attorney from 3/2018. She had acted like she had never met the woman but she won’t $900 on a consult with her, which is a two hour consult. The lying is incredible.
We obviously need this to end, but my heart is t letting go.
Hang in there buddy. We hear you. We were all there. We have all faced the same demons. We all survived and came out stronger on the other end.
Your heart not letting go is just rose colored glasses and denial going on. There is no getting around it, the only way is through.
You finding a lawyer bill from 2018 is sadly very typical and falls in line with the general WAS behavior. They are off the reservation at least 2 years before the BD.
Physical activity is key for getting out of the funk, as is GAL. Take up a hobby, go hiking, dust off that camera and go in the nature.
Learn about the 6 stages of grief, it will help you understand your body reactions.
The Six Stages of Grieving
NUMBNESS AND DENIAL. To initially cope with loss it common to go in a state of shock and denial. ... ANXIETY AND PANIC * When you feel anxiety, deeper feelings about your loss will be piercing through your denial. ... BARGAINING AND CONTROL. ... FRUSTRATION AND ANGER. ... DEPRESSION AND DESPAIR. ... ACCEPTANCE AND PEACE.
It is not a clear cut journey and one can regress for a while to a previous stage, but a general direction is there.
Do not be ashamed to take the meds. It will help take the edge off. Just be aware that there might be side effects. Some people do not like the side effects. Also be aware that you cannot go cold turkey on the meds. And the third thing is it might take some time to adjust the dosage and/or type of meds that work for you.
That being said, one cannot overestimate the importance of physical activity and GAL.
I think the crazy hormonal stuff going on has triggered some weird stuff and I think she has transferred a lot of her family of origin stuff from her mom to me.
Does it change how you interact with her? Does it change how you go forward with your life?
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I’m 85 pages in and it’s good. Gives lots of examples. To internalize it I imagine you have to read it 2-3 times and take good notes, and practice. A WAW is a good practice partner imo because they can be hard to listen to when they are ripping you apart and passively aggressively attacking you. If they compliment you, you know you’re on the right path.
What does the book suggest you do when she's ripping you apart and attacking? Can you tell the difference in how your W reacts when you've hurt her, and how she reacts when she is angry at you? Do you recognize disrespect in these times where she's ripping you apart? What has been your usual reaction?
I disagree that her complimenting you being a sign you're on the right path. It's no problem for a WW to use compliments as a means of temperature testing. If she's wayward, she'll twist you so many ways until you'll feel like a one man circus act. Why? B/c your focus is all about getting her back. You're trying to win the prize.
I don't have a problem with the LBH reading self help books to improve his life. I don't have an issue with LBH's reading about relationships in order to have a better marriage. My concern is when I see a LBH with NGS, reading material that reinforces his passivity. Nice guys like reading material that tells them to do things like giving complements, listening, validating, engaging in family activities, being her BFF, communicate in her LL, etc. This appeals to the LBH with NGS. However, he doesn't want to touch any material that suggests applying tough love.
The problem is that WW's are not sexually attracted to the LBH who is tripping over himself trying to win her back. Before these types of material can be significantly beneficial in a case of a WW, the H must first approach everything from a point of self respect and protecting his boundaries. Your W is not attracted to you b/c she has a fantasy in her head about another man and a different life. She's not happy in her MR, b/c she's fantasizing about some other guy. Real or imaginary, it has the same results in her feelings. It affects her desire and attraction for her H. A wife cannot have another man living in her head, and feel desire for her H.
You've been in MC for three yrs, and she still doesn't want you sexually. You can blame it on her FOO, hormones, depression, personality disorder, or whatever. I'm not saying those things don't play a part in how she feels and views life. But a lot of what we see here on the board, is the W who sees her H as the source for all her unhappiness. She blames him for not making her happy. She's on a search for happiness, but she's expecting someone else to make her happy, instead of realizing she's responsible for her own lack of happiness. Unfortunately, she sees leaving the MR and finding someone else as being necessary for her to obtain the happiness she dreams about. Her LBH could jump through hoops of fire to win her back, but it won't work.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
