Fall 2019 discover H is having a full on EA, spent several months working on the R in MC, followed by a temporary separation, a reconciliation, and then H signs a year lease and moves out in August 2020. Terrible spewing/monstering/complete re-writing of history for months and months. My self-esteem and self-worth was devastated. I did a lot of things wrong and have only now begun to come out of my own fog.
At first I thought H was a WAH, but exploring MLC and understanding the depths of his depression and childhood issues and came to believe he is in MLC. He could be both. But I am not so concerned about that at the moment as I try to live each day and keep my attention on the long-term and not those micro-moments.
Four young children and a joint business. Neither of us have legally instigated D, although H talks as if it is a done deal and wants to begin discussions in the new year.
In the meantime, I am working on myself, focussing on my children and re-imagining my life moving forward. The best thing to happen to me in a year has been my recent discovery that I am slowly but surely detaching from H. I no longer feel at the mercy of his feelings; I am owning my side of the street and let H own his side. This process has been long and hard, but I am grateful for the lessons I am learning along the way.
A few days ago, one of my children wanted to show H a picture on my phone. I was out of the room for a few minutes and when I came back, H was on my phone alone. I have nothing to hide, so it didn't really bother me much. But when I went to text some overseas friends in WhatsApp, I noticed that he had checked out my call log. (WhatsApp is his tool of choice for communicating secretly with EA, the only American person he uses this app with, although we both use it to communicate with family and friends abroad).
A few days later, I had a break from homeschooling and spent the day in a nearby city to get some long-awaited errands done (my first weekday to do so in 8 weeks). H had the kids, but when I got home he was visibly upset with me and based upon what he said, it was clear that he was questioning what I was *really* up to on my day away.
He questions whether or not I really loved him, based upon a healing exercise I did in the spring where I wrote down a list of where I wanted us to be in two years' time. (He snuck into my journal and read it without my knowledge). He believes I was writing that list for some future partner.
Is all of this common behavior? I honestly have zero interest in whom he is talking to or what he is up to right now. Why does he care?
I thought you'd stopped posting. I didn't realise you had a thread going here until you popped up on my thread (and thank you for that).
What odd behaviour from your husband. How very very strange.
I can't say my H has done anything like this before, but we're all different. I think what's more important than what your husband is doing or why he is doing it is what your boundaries are, whether they are working for you or not, and if not, do they need tweaking?
I know if my H was sneaking around looking at my journal or looking at my phone I would be furious. I'd let him know in no uncertain terms was he to do it again.
Do you want suggestions in how to respond to his intrusive questions? H HAS done that kind of thing with me before. If he's insinuating something, I pretend not to understand. It is probably not the most mature way of going about things, but it leaves his feelings with him and not with me.
I do think most spouses do experience jealousy over their LBS; especially when they do not know what you are doing or where you are going. Their warped little minds spin and drag them off to thoughts of what you might be doing. Most times they expect their LBS to remain sitting in a shelf pining for them. Nope, not happening with Sage.
I love reading your realizations about detachment. You are so correct. Detachment starts as deflection, then we build walls, and then realize that detachment actually doesn’t have walls. Your post - very well done, and very well said!
Indifference is that numb feeling during our healing process. Quite different than detachment. I think you got a good handle on those walls as well.
Of course, it takes time. It’s funny when looking back, as you also stated, how quickly it all happened. And then realize the months and months to get here. It so obvious from this side, isn’t it? Yet, one cannot just get to this place without walking their path. It’s not obvious until it is.
Originally Posted by Sage4
I think right now I feel compassion and empathy for the broken human in front of me and at the same time I do not condone or forgive his behavior (yet? Will I ever? Do I need to? Hmmm....).
If you would like some advice from a friend.
Compassion, understanding, empathy - excellent.
Do I need to forgive? Short answer - Yes.
Forgiveness is for you.
Separate the sinner from the sin. The person from the behaviour. You forgive the person. That is quite freeing. And the concern over the behaviour more or less melts away. This all takes time.
This doesn’t mean we sweep the horrors and wrong doings under the rug. When, or if, a times comes we can deal with the behaviours and atonement then. And that is more them demonstrating they’ve healed and are working towards earning our trust again.
Forgiveness is us not holding a grudge, nor waiting or demanding restitution.
The idea of forgiveness seems astonishingly thin and weak when held next to the powerful feelings of vengeance and non-forgiveness. However, that thin cloak of light and grace is incredibly powerful. Forgiveness touch’s the divine.
Forgive those who trespass against me.
It’s not obvious until it is. Take it on faith for now. And realize you are worth forgiving H.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Hey my dear projecting is super normal. My bff's H would get just absolute crazy right about the time he would start approaching that line from friendship to EA. Now they got through one major PA and one major EA but they had been together since they were so, so young. I think learning to navigate that stuff in your early 20s is hard. I'd have to say there were exes and other female friends of friends that he might have gotten a little too chatty with over the years, but I wouldn't call it an all out EA. No "I love yous" or "oh if the world was different we could be together" crap. But when ever he was behaving a little in appropriately he's automatically start projecting on her. By their mid 20s she could sniff it out. As they near 40 he's just gotten much better at protecting his W vs feeding his ego.
My exH was just literally so insecure he constantly accused me of cheating. He went through my journals, my computer files, my emails, my IMs. Anything he could get his hands on he was constantly playing detective. All it really did was teach me how to hide my affair when I finally did have one. But he also knew he treated me like crap and I could do better. A lot of it was his fear that I would leave him, and his desperation for it to be my fault. So much so when I did leave, 4 years after my actually affair. He told people we split because of my affair. Not his drug use. Not his drinking. Not his mental health issues. Not his inability to carry his share of the household or parenting. Not his constant criticism. Not his inability to make his child a priority. Definitely the affair I had 4 years prior.
Given what I know about your H, I'd say a little of column A and a little of column B is what's going on here.
Sage, at BD 1, my H angrily went through a list of the men he thought I flirted with as justification for reaching out to old gfs on FB (which he had just joined after 5 years of making fun of it). The list included a 25 year old customer from our business who was a famous movie actor and a couple of priests I seemed "close to." I had never cheated and never would, and I was barely able to find time to put on my shoes, let alone find someone to watch the baby and run a business and conduct an affair or even have one encounter. I was so devoted to my vows that I stayed faithful for seven years after BD and for the many years before that that he pulled away. (Honestly looking back I am not sure he was ever interested in me physically, but that's another story.) Anyway, at that point, when he basically accused me of pursuing relationships with those other men as he set off to a new life while married to me, I didn't know what MLC was then and APOLOGIZED IF I HAD DONE SOMETHING THAT SEEMED INAPPROPRIATE!
And I thought, well, one thing about H is that he would never ever cheat. So I never have to worry about that. Slowly I realized he "might," and then I just prayed for him to get it over with and out of his system so that we could restore our M. I said nothing and did the Love Dare many times over and slowly came to faith because of that. So that's how God used it.
Later I remembered that just after our son was born, he asked me if I had cheated on him because he had some medical issue that could have come from an STD. I had a newborn and a business to run and I LOVED him so I was totally astonished. And the saddest part was that I was happy that he cared if I cheated on him! I had felt like he didn't even know I was alive as a woman. That was in 2005, 8 years before BD.
When I finally did know about the affair -- and I don't know if you know my story, but I found out for sure the day I came home from a mastectomy and saw a text on his phone that said, "To My Secret Other Wife"), I used the word adultery once, some months after that when he started it up with her again. (He stopped right after the surgery, I think.) I never spoke to him about it but once when he tried to talk about it and did not admit that it was wrong to cheat, I told him not to speak to me about his adultery, that was between him and God. He sent me a long reply in which I described all the ways I had been adulterous by being a bad wife. It was an extremely vicious note, as if I had been the one to destroy him and destroy our marriage. I had been standing for a couple of years by then, very faithfully, very kindly, even through cancer and the death of my mother, while he had pretty much disappeared from our family and business.
I tell you that to remind you, BELIEVE NONE OF WHAT THEY SAY AND MAYBE 10% OF WHAT THEY DO.
If you are Christian, the best advice I could give on this is Philipians 4:8. You could also do this as a Buddhist practice. Just to let go of these thoughts and to focus on what is good and true and beautiful, even if it's just the true definition of marriage, no matter who is or isn't following it. Or a beautiful sky. Or the love of a dear friend.
Last edited by Gerda; 11/08/2003:25 PM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
In hindsight, I am not really sure what my intention was asking that question in the first place. I think I was confused about why he would care about whether or not I am or was straying if he is so dead set on D. Why isn't he more indifferent? He certainly doesn't show me he cares about me in any other ways right now.
We had a really tough conversation about the children tonight. They are not taking the transitions between homes very well and it is impacting school, social interactions and their general well-being. And we are not just talking about run-of-the-mill 'this is hard, but kids will get over it with time' kind of stuff. It's really intense. And these issues are highlighting some of the deep discrepancies in our approaches to parenting and our approaches to life.
The challenge I am facing at the moment with these talks, which are necessary for the well-being of our children, is that they are engraining the narrative H has constructed about me. That I am emotionally superior and he is inferior. That I can manipulate and control. That no matter how hard he tries, no matter how much therapy or self-reflection, that he will never be good enough. So he reacts from this vantage.
The children spend 80%+ of their time alone with me. They have for their entire lives. So I am naturally the parent they go to with their feelings. They love H, but they have always tread carefully around his feelings (good and bad) and of course our current situation just amplified that for them. So I am getting all their raw feelings, they suck it up (sometimes) for the time they are with him, then come home and unload all their pent up emotions on me. Which is fine until I encounter something that I can't solve or deal with on my own.
I try to be gentle and open. I try to begin the conversations in validating, egalitarian terms. I do not think I am superior. I do not think he isn't good enough. I have no interest in manipulation or control. I want what's best for our children, as I believe he does as well.
But I also see how much these conversations are hurting our R and entrenching that nasty narrative. So how do I proceed? Any advice?
I'm sorry but Sage... you *are* emotionally superior. Your H is a complete mess. He has chosen his own "happiness" over that of his family's and the children can see he still isn't happy. You are raising smart kids who are in touch with their own feelings. They see this. They have learned to deal with his issues and thank goodness they have always had you to be their rock.
And... your H probably sees some of this too. He may be choosing to express it as "poor me" who will never measure up to Sage, no matter what he does. (boo hoo.) But at some level, no matter what he's telling himself, that he deserves to be happy or he isn't good enough or whatever is the reason du jour... he knows he's f-ing up.
So... some thoughts.
I am having a hard time, knowing you through this board, believing that you are encountering anything you can't handle on your own with your kids. I believe you that they're having a really, really difficult time. I think that is really common and the fortunate thing is that you've developed the kind of relationship with your children that they can actually confide in you-- that, I think, is rare and a testament to what an incredible mom you are. You're getting the real look at what happens in these situations. (And to the extent you're willing to share what those problems are... maybe to the same extent my H's willingness to say whatever popped into his head to me helped others, I think it might help those of us with children who are navigating through all of this to hear how they're feeling and what they're dealing with right now. No pressure, though-- just if you're comfortable.)
So... are these really problems you can't solve on your own? I understand that it might be better to solve them together, but do you think your H is really capable of that right now? He hasn't shown he is able to deal with his own emotions well at all-- my guess is that he might take the kids' difficulties personally and either lash out at them for making him feel bad and guilty or take it out on you (more likely, and sounds like what is happening). How would you handle it if your H was totally acting bonkers right now? What if he wasn't around? I just wonder if it is helpful at all to try to solve these problems together. And/or if a tiny unspoken reason you are bringing these problems to him to solve together is to have the opportunity to connect as parents or to remind him of the consequences his actions are having on innocent parties. (I am fairly sure if I was in your position, being far less enlightened, there would be at least a little bit of that there for me.)
I'm just saying. If he's unhappy and confused and guilty and then he is seeing how devastating his actions are to his own children (which... sit with that for a second and be in his shoes. Can you imagine what you would feel like if you saw your children having such a rough time and knowing it was all your fault? That YOU made a choice and they were bearing the consequences? I truly can't even bear thinking of what that might feel like.). And you are being kind and gentle and non-blaming... perhaps that does come across as morally superior to someone who is feeling extremely guilty and insecure. And read a certain way, you trying to figure out how to communicate all of this to your H in a way that doesn't hurt his precious feelings sounds a little bit like even though you are S, you're still picking up his emotional burden.
Not to say you are trying to be controlling or any of that-- I don't believe that for one second. I am just wondering if there is really any value to these conversations right now, for any of you, even the children. Have you consulted a child or family psychiatrist? if they're really having trouble, it might be better to start that sooner rather than later, and then you'll have a professional third party who can communicate what is needed to your H without you needing to get in the middle.
So, there's my non-enlightened viewpoint on this, today. I'm not feeling especially generous towards any of these Hs.
(((SAGE)))
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
May, thank you so much for this juicy, though-provoking response.
I didn't sleep well last night ruminating on our conversation. In reflection, there were a few moments where I could have done a better job of validating or being more enlightened and compassionate, but for the most part I am proud of how I conducted myself.
I do think this board lacks a discussion about children in all of this. I'm sure it's partly to protect the privacy of innocents and partly because we are so focused on our R. But really they are the ones that suffer the most in all of these situations and they deserve a voice and discussion.
The reason I can't solve this problem on my own is that it has to do with one of my children feeling like the overnight visitation is forced and said child is reacting extremely to this sensation. We probably need to get a therapist involved, but the last thing the kid can handle at the moment is another zoom call, even if that were to be an effective method of therapy for children, which I don't think it is. And in our area, there isn't much in person therapy options. So H and I are stuck trying to work it out how to best proceed, at least for now.
This whole situation perpetuates and increases H's insecurities. Sage the wise one, Sage the beloved, Sage who knows what to do in every situation. I have spent a lot of time talking with my IC to make sure that I am not projecting my own anger/frustration/sadness/issues into this situation, and I feel very comfortable saying I am not doing so. But I hate that in looking out for the best interest of my children, I am giving H more reasons to hate me.
24/7 solo parenting/homeschooling/dealing with our menagerie of pets and trying to find my footing and next steps is EXHAUSTING. The psychic toll of being 'on' all the time is wearing me down. I cried in private several times this weekend-- I just wanted and needed another adult. To celebrate our political situation, to watch the kids so I could go for a run, to laugh and have a glass of wine with that evening.
My self care is non existent at the moment. I don't have 15 consecutive minutes in any day, even my therapy appointments are conducted via phone in my bedroom with children interrupting to ask if they can do this or that. I need a break. It would be so much easier if the children willingly and happily went to H's. I want that for them and for me.
I am at a crossroad: I am damned if I talk to H about this stuff (makes him feel worse about himself) and damned if I don't (perpetuates alienation between H and the kids, makes my load too heavy to bear). My brain feels like it is going to explode.
Your burden is too heavy right now. Put some of it down. Don't worry about your H's feelings. They are his to worry about, not yours. You need to talk to him about it because of your children, and you need to be sure your load is bearable. WHO CARES WHAT HE THINKS? I sure don't.
I personally don't think there is any value in trying to preserve his feelings or ego or whatever right now. He made his choices. He needs to experience the consequences. It is NOT YOUR JOB to worry about him and his insecurities. You have enough to worry about with your children and yourself.
*I* am worried about *you*. It breaks my heart that you are looking back at this conversation with your husband and seeing places you could have been more compassionate towards him or validated more. Honestly, Sage. Why are you pouring so much of your beautiful energy into this broken vessel?
Originally Posted by Sage4
But I hate that in looking out for the best interest of my children, I am giving H more reasons to hate me.
you are not giving him more reasons to hate you. His "hatred" of you is a reflection of his own self-hatred. He would find something else to pin on you if not this... or, if you succeed at making him feel good about himself even as he willfully and selfishly breaks apart your family, then he will never do the work he needs to do on himself to be the kind of father you want him to be to the children. He needs to stop feeling sorry for himself and step up and be a good dad. He needs to stop blaming you for his own insecurities and deficiencies. This is all on him. it is not on you. It is his work to do and there is nothing you can to do to help him on his path here-- except possibly block his own progress by trying to smooth everything out for him. Put this burden down.
Originally Posted by Sage4
I need a break. It would be so much easier if the children willingly and happily went to H's. I want that for them and for me.
This problem is big enough that it deserves 100% of your focus. No distractions about H's feelings. If his feelings need to be preserved in order to make it work for your kids, then okay. kiss his @ss to get what you need for yourself and your kids. Otherwise, do what you think is best. Remember how you were reminding me about when the children were toddlers and it mattered more what they ate over the course of a week than in one single meal? Maybe this is like sleep training. Your child is safe with your H. He may not like spending overnights there, but he is safe. He may mostly not like the fact that you guys are S and is acting out in a way to try to bring you back together. (I have read that kids do this kind of thing a lot, maybe not consciously.) So maybe it is in the best interests of your child to be firm and clear and send him to his dad's, so that you H has a chance to work on his own parenting skills without imagining that you're just pulling his puppet strings, and you have the time you desperately need for yourself, to recharge, cry, drink that glass of wine, celebrate the election, exercise, whatever you need to do so that you can be the best mom you can be when you pick them up. And though it breaks your heart to see him upset, just like your heart broke listening to that baby crying himself to sleep, it won't last forever. (Although now I'm thinking knowing you maybe you didn't do it that way!!)
(Note this is me just talking, I really don't know the answer. This is hard, hard stuff and I'm terrified I'll have to walk through it. I salute you for handling all of this with such amazing compassion and grace. You're incredible. I just am worried about you and want you to focus on you and stop worrying about your d!ckhead H.)
And one final solutioning idea, because I simply can't help it-- could you call a child psychologist who specializes in S/D and do a phone consult without making your child jump on a zoom call? Explain the situation and get some advice? or better yet-- suggest your H do this? Then at least you have the third party expert in the room, which both can give you comfort that you're doing what is best for your child, plus takes the weight off of Sage being the all-knowing perfect parent and all his issues around that.
(((SAGE)))
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
But I hate that in looking out for the best interest of my children, I am giving H more reasons to hate me.
Ah man, I have been there in SPADES. I remember when H moved out, I felt so stuck. Eldest was furious with him, and very hurt, and if I listened patiently and showed validation and understanding, H would be furious and feel undermined. And I tossed and turned around this so much. When we were all together, H seemed to need me, desperately, to demonstrate loyalty and respect to him by echoing parenting strategies which were at worst, bullying, and at best, really rooted in his own needs and deficiencies rather than the needs of the kids. I felt so tangled and distressed - my desperation to keep my marriage alive, my care and worry for my children, my wondering how I could help H and Eldest in their relationship (or manipulate them into being peaceful with each other because that was better for me...) my fear that if I didn't get H behaving better and more kindly, Eldest would be massively damaged by it, my feeling that I was having to choose between being a good mother and having a husband - all of that. It was horrible.
But all so unnecessarily complicated. The needs of your children come first. You don't have to be a perfect parent all the time to trust your own judgement. Now and again even two good parents acting in their kids best interests will disagree. If one parent isn't able to act in their children's best interests, or is playing out marriage drama in the co-parenting interactions, the best thing to do is detach. Love your kids, trust that time will take the heat out of most things, that they will rest in the security you offer them, and H can project onto you, or get his act together, and there's not a thing you can do to change whatever pathway he's on right now.
If said child is 13 or under, the visitation IS forced, or will be when there is a custody agreement.
What do YOU think is said child's objection to the visitation? Do they just want to sleep in their own bed? Do they miss their friends in the neighborhood when they're gone? Do they not like H's living quarters? Are they mad at dad and don't want to see him? Is it something about dad's behavior when they're there that disturbs them?
Oh friends, thank you all so much for your thoughts and kind words.
Originally Posted by may22
*I* am worried about *you*. It breaks my heart that you are looking back at this conversation with your husband and seeing places you could have been more compassionate towards him or validated more. Honestly, Sage. Why are you pouring so much of your beautiful energy into this broken vessel?
May, you have no idea what these words meant to me yesterday. I sobbed reading them, the release was exactly what I needed. I realized after a good cry that I was perpetuating the enabling cycle in my R with H: don't give him too much burden or he will break and then you will have so much more on your plate. But that's not my role anymore, for three huge reasons: 1. he fired me from that position, it is not my job to 'protect' him anymore; 2. everyone is going down if I do (ie if I have a real breakdown); and 3. H needs to figure this all out on his own, it is unfair of me to intervene in his process, he has asked for me to step out of the way when he separated from me. I wasn't the only one to choose to have four children and the burden (and joy!) of raising them shouldn't be mine alone.
After a fleeting moment of considering running away to Argentina and renting a small flat and restarting my life, I found my balance again.
H came to take troubled child out for lunch and have a conversation about everything. They were gone for two hours and had a nice time. H and I had a conversation afterwards where I expressed how close to the edge I was and that I was worried about my ability to keep it up. I got teary and I think it shook H. Three hours to myself in 12 days is not going to cut it with the burden of homeschooling, 24/7 parenting, very little adult interaction, no exercise and everything else going on. We came up with a plan where 2-3 times a week H will help share homeschooling duties and give me a chance to exercise during school days. I feel good about this and have a roadmap to recovering some of my mental well-being.
Your comment pushed me to have this conversation, so thank you SO much May.
I can tell H feels guilty and shameful. But not my problem. Detachment, I could hug you!
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
Ah man, I have been there in SPADES. I remember when H moved out, I felt so stuck. Eldest was furious with him, and very hurt, and if I listened patiently and showed validation and understanding, H would be furious and feel undermined. And I tossed and turned around this so much. When we were all together, H seemed to need me, desperately, to demonstrate loyalty and respect to him by echoing parenting strategies which were at worst, bullying, and at best, really rooted in his own needs and deficiencies rather than the needs of the kids. I felt so tangled and distressed - my desperation to keep my marriage alive, my care and worry for my children, my wondering how I could help H and Eldest in their relationship (or manipulate them into being peaceful with each other because that was better for me...) my fear that if I didn't get H behaving better and more kindly, Eldest would be massively damaged by it, my feeling that I was having to choose between being a good mother and having a husband - all of that. It was horrible.
But all so unnecessarily complicated. The needs of your children come first. You don't have to be a perfect parent all the time to trust your own judgement. Now and again even two good parents acting in their kids best interests will disagree. If one parent isn't able to act in their children's best interests, or is playing out marriage drama in the co-parenting interactions, the best thing to do is detach. Love your kids, trust that time will take the heat out of most things, that they will rest in the security you offer them, and H can project onto you, or get his act together, and there's not a thing you can do to change whatever pathway he's on right now.
Alison, thank you so much for this perspective. I remember reading about this in your earlier posts and now I am living it. And your latest thread on detaching and letting go of the responsibility of trying to fix everything for everyone is really inspiring me right now. Priority one is me, then my children and if there is leftover psychic energy, I can choose to share my energy with H. I put this into practice yesterday with our conversation where I asked H to step in and support. He could have said yes or no, that is on him. But I certainly wasn't going to get anywhere if I didn't ask.
Originally Posted by kml
If said child is 13 or under, the visitation IS forced, or will be when there is a custody agreement.
What do YOU think is said child's objection to the visitation? Do they just want to sleep in their own bed? Do they miss their friends in the neighborhood when they're gone? Do they not like H's living quarters? Are they mad at dad and don't want to see him? Is it something about dad's behavior when they're there that disturbs them?
You are right, KML. I know when a formal agreement is in place, it may well be forced. So I have been forcing child to spend the night against child's wishes for two months now. Child enjoys spending time with H, day time activities are not really an issue, child loves H, even if child feels closer to me and has some issues with H. It's the overnights at H's house.
Among some other (what I feel to be minor) issues that you mentioned above, child has sleep anxiety and there were some incidences early on in the S where child wasn't cared for as he needed to be at night with H and that started the spiral. If we were in courts, a child psychologist would be involved as it is really quite bad. But H and I have come up with a solution for the time being: child will spend H's custody days and as much free time with H as makes sense and then come home to sleep with me. We are going to try and reset, with the eventual hope that child will begin to feel safe spending the night there again sometime in the near future. I have no idea how this is going to work out, but it feels like the right path and all parties (including child) feel good about it for now.
I am dealing with the jealousy/suspicion issue from H on a daily basis now. If I don't answer my phone quick enough, if I make a decision for our family that in some very convoluted way could belie a thread of a possibility of someone else in my life, if I have plans that are not clearly defined.
On one hand I am flattered that he cares. On the other, there is a level of frustration that he is so checked out of the reality of my consuming childcare responsibilities that he could believe I even have a moment of time to be pursuing some dalliance.
But either way, it is becoming a struggle for me to deal with this dark cloud of suspicion. I am an honest and open person by nature so I am inclined to write him an email addressing all of his suspicions and then just refer back to that email when I get weary of the subtle accusations.
I am not a 'none of your business' kind of person, so going dark in this manner is not a path I will take. Not that I feel I need to justify my behavior, but I am not interested in contributing to the cycle of insecurities that will ultimately hurt our coparenting relationship.
You are correct, H is insecure. The green eyed demon of jealousy/suspicion is tormenting him.
You not being a ‘none of your business’ type gal, perhaps you could do something else instead of an email. Written things will get bought up again and again by an emotionally troubled person; I think it’s best to limit that cycle. Still it is good to acknowledge and validate his feelings. And by the way, it is good he is sharing them. Such as it is.
It is good that he feels what it might be like to lose you or at least he somewhat recognizes the possible consequences of his actions. Again, such as it is. Remember he is driven by emotions, and those are cranked to eleven. So don’t expect much in the way of empathy or even consistent emotional behaviours. He just isn’t there...yet.
“H, I’m sorry you feel that way.”
You need not explain yourself to him. It might even by best to not explain anything to him. Let him stew with his subtle accusations. Things we say to our MLCer spouse, usually will get turned around and used as some irrational form of justification. You can see that from his reactions if you don’t answer the phone quick enough, or make some family decision. He is going to irrationally leap to whatever conclusion feels right for the moment he is in. Keep calm and give him no purchase or handhold to start a struggle with you.
“H, I’m sorry you feel that way. I was driving and could not answer your call.”
If you like, you could include the “why”. It depends on the situation, and you know that better than us.
The way to deal with this daily issue is to kind of not deal with it. Let it go. Just validate and keep moving forward. Your demonstrated good life is a beacon to him. Keep living it. If your life is a bit mysterious, good.
H is on his path, and nothing you do will greatly affect that. Your possible influence, is up to H to see. And he is watching.
Keep leading by example. Be honest. Be cordial and kind. Insecure people need to see, and feel, a better way, and then decide to move towards that better way. Don’t forget, H is emotional stunted and needs to grow up.
And as an emotional teenager, H will test you. Will rebel. Will aggravate. Don’t take the bait. Live that better life and leave him to decide to catch up when he is ready to.
I have four kids. And oh boy, It is so nice once they move from that particular rebellious stage. Currently, it is only D18 and a bit of S20 within that. S22 and S23 seem to have grown and are (mostly) passed it. And yes, it was aggravating.
Just a few thoughts during my break from setting up the Christmas tree. Have a wonderful day Sage.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Hi Sage, I would love to give you some advice on all this but when I see a spouse reacting so childishly I struggle to not want to tell someone to be petty with a response. I know that's not productive in any way. I'm frustrated watching you drowning under responsibilities with 4 kids and it feels like he's getting them like every other weekend and barely accommodating that into his new life. A few extra hours a week as a compromise to help lift the burden when being subjected to the Spanish Inquisition because you want to run and take a long shower alone and in the quiet seems like you're taking on more. Not less.
I don't have any real solutions for you here. Honestly I'd really like for you to look H in the face and say "A) I don't have to explain myself to you, you left B) Because of A it's none of your business but just so we're clear I'm not seeing any one C) You don't have to worry about me, I'm not you." Granted like I said not productive, enlightened or compassionate on your end, but IMO those are the petty responses his ridiculousness deserves. But given that that isn't really an option I just a have few questions.
Is there anyone else in your life who could spend sometime with the kids to give you a break? I know covid and all, but is there any one who could pop in, even masked just to give you a breather? Can you pop on a movie and leave the bigger ones in charge of the littler ones for 80 min in the house with you to get a quiet moment or two? Next as far as the accusations go, would a conversation with H help? Like a "I am not seeing anyone, I have no intention of seeing anyone any time soon. My health and the health of my children is not something I'm willing to compromise for a date. If, and this is a big if, if the time comes where I am dating some one, and it's serious enough that I'm even considering allowing that person around the kids you'll be the first to know. It's something I think you deserve to know. But as of right now I'm just worried about staying sane during all of this. I need the time and space so I don't end up in the funny farm and for no other reason and I'd really appreciate if you could give me your help with some compassion instead of suspicion." Because I'm a jerk I'd tack on a "I think I deserve that much, don't you?" But once again not super productive.
Like WF my kneejerk would be to tell him it is none of his beeswax. Honestly. (But that is your unenlightened friend May talking who is bathing in anger right now and not super inclined to give him a pass on this one. Consequences are hard, little man.) I get that he's having a rough time but it feels crazy-town to me that he's doing this.
Although, I guess it does show just how much difficulty he is having. To be so ruled by your emotions and have so little control over letting them dictate your actions must feel awful, whether it means chasing the OW and leaving his family or accusing you of dating, which also seems nutty since HE LEFT YOU!!! For you to be under a "cloud of suspicion" that is making it difficult for you to carry out all of the daily responsibilities of your life because he is worried you are moving on is just beyond.
I recall you writing on someone's thread on Newcomers whose WH moved back in and then bounced again after a month that he sure kept a very tight leash on her while they were S, temp checking like he was getting paid for it. Just to push on you a bit... isn't this what your H is doing? And why is it your job to smooth his feelings down around this consequence too? You leave your wife, she may date other people. Sorry that doesn't feel good to him, but that is LIFE.
And to push a little more... are you sure you aren't telling yourself that you need to calm this particular flare-up to make your life easier, or because you want to have a certain attitude with all of this and "nunya" is not really your style? Or are you, yet again, soothing away his bad feelings around potential consequences of his actions by reassuring him you aren't seeing anyone? Just like all of us, does he need to experience the discomfort of not-knowing where you are in all of this to be able to fully understand his own feelings and desires? Is it appropriate for you to be his security blanket still?
In terms of not contributing to the cycle of insecurities that may ultimately harm your co-parenting R, my worry is that this is a never-ending hole for both of you. You will never be able to have enough transparency to convince him, even if you wanted to, and he'll continue to think up ways that you might be "betraying" him because this is stemming from someplace inside him, not from you.
One caveat... I do think that telling him something specific due to COVID is a good idea, if for no other reason than I think you would want to know the same thing from him. When he went on his work trip and presumably saw OW with unknown levels of precautions, I remember you wanting to protect your own health and that of your children's by asking him (rightfully, in my book) to take additional precautions upon returning home. So while maybe outside of COVID it wouldn't make sense for you to need to explain yourself, I do see the value right now in telling him something along the lines of what WF suggests. Maybe a simple "I'm sorry you feel that way. I will absolutely let you know if my COVID risk profile changes, and I hope you will do the same." would be enough.
Oh Sage, you have the biggest heart on the planet. I worry that you're pouring it into everyone around you and not keeping any energy for yourself. I know with COVID and distance learning and all the rest (even if not going through all this WH stuff) it is just too much sometimes. My feeling on all of this is that the kids aren't going to have long-term scholastic damage from this (and if they do, so will every other child on the planet, so we'll all be the same distance behind). I have zero shame these days in letting the kids watch a movie so I can get a little nap. Can you cut yourself some parenting/schooling slack and carve out some time for you?
xoxo M
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Sage, I'm also on my own with my three kids but we don't have problems with covid right now. So I can only imagine the kind of stress you're under trying to manage the household. I often times also feel like everything is too much to bear. But there is no other option. We are the only stable parents in the house. The show must go on.
What I find helpful is to lower my own expectations of what a good mother should be. I've let go a lot on their academic performance - it was just impossible and damaging to my relationship with the kids when I kept the bar high. Instead I've made their state of mental health a priority. I always think of it this way - my H is an Ivy League grad. But look at him now!! I don't want my kids ending up like him. Also the other stuff too. My house is more messy that I'd like it to be, there's a lot of room of improvement. But I cut myself some slack way more than before.
Do more things for you, if possible. That's probably one of the hardest thing in this covid-era.
Regarding your H's suspicion issue, my H is similar. To this day he would still say things like "now you are free to go find a new man like you've always wanted." (which I've never said that) And I've stopped responding to him when he makes a comment like that. In the beginning I would try to explain myself, but now it really does not matter to me what he thinks. It is none of his business.
And I would add, be careful of the "I'm flatter that he cares" narrative. My guess is that it's not YOU that he cares, it is his ego. That is not a sign of love, it is sign of control, insecurity, maybe even guilt.
Ooooo good call on the lowered expectations wooba. This also made me think of somethings regarding the responsibilities being a bit much. So as we know I've been battling depression a long time, so I follow some mental health professional mom influencers. Some of which are at home with a gaggle of kids trying to live through these crazy times. One I follow on TikTok does a lot about self care and care tasks with depression and she's found it's really helping support a lot of primary caregivers during these times. Some of the main things she makes clear are: care tasks never end, babies don't stay babies forever take the time to truly enjoy some moments with each kiddo every day, and self care because you can't put the oxygen mask on others if yours isn't on.
So care tasks - cooking, cleaning, laundry, grocery shopping. The things that you can finish but are never finished. She does a lot of work around not valuing yourself on how well, quickly or often you complete care tasks. That you are not valued as a person based on those things. That your home is a home it is lived in and there is no need to be a Better Homes and Gardens photo shoot. She also does a lot of work on allowing yourself the space to use short cuts like paper plates, ordering take out, paying a little more to have groceries delivered, whatever it may be to help ease the burden. She also talks about being willing to let the laundry pile up, or to not vacuum for days. To not force things in for the purposes of a tidy home, to do them because you feel like it, or because it needs to be done. And doing these things within the limits of how much you have the energy for. If you only have time and energy for 2 loads makes it underwear, socks and other essentials. Things like that. The self care part, she doesn't just talk about bubble baths and yoga. She talks about protective hairstyles for all types of hair so you don't have to wash your hair every day if don't have time or energy to shower every day. She talks about finding space for yourself during the day even if it means not being super mom and popping on some Disney+ and throwing fruit snacks at the kids.
Another thought I had was maybe looking into age appropriate chore charts, and no your kids shouldn't have to pick up the burden because you H is out the door, but self reliance is good thing, as is doing your part as a member of a household. You guys are living, working and learning in the same space far more than normal and you all are having to deal with changes. Maybe making some tweaks to the care tasks in your home can alleviate some stress for you and help to usher in a new normal for you guys.
Point being here, Sage, you do not have to be all things to all people all of the time.
I totally get it about being flattered. I felt the same when my H did that. But later I understood he was projecting his own desire to cheat and his own feelings that he was justified. It's like he thinks you have to think exactly as he does, he can't imagine anything different right now. I do think it shows he does not want you with someone but ultimately it is a disordered love and you do not need to talk about disordered love with a disordered person. It will only confuse you. It is okay to be totally silent and know that God or the universe knows the truth, it doesn't matter if H does. Remember, your ability to love him has nothing to do with his ability to love you. The beauty of your ability to love is why you feel flattered, you want to be loved as you love. But he is not capable of that now.
Now about the rest -- I don't know if you are a person of faith but I think you just have to remember that you are going through something impossible and that you are loved. It will not feel possible to make it through this time or do all that you have to do, but all you have to do is keep walking through the fire. It will not last forever but right now all you can do is walk through it. Take a bike ride for 15 minutes or stay up a little late after your kids are in bed to read a book you love with your favorite tea or whatever it is that will give you some headspace. And then just keep telling yourself that you are capable of accepting your circumstances and that you will not give way to despair. Think of all the women who are living through far worse than you on this earth. And think of your friends here, who are going through the same thing as you are. I have four different part time jobs, sometimes six when I have more work, and all my hours have been cut. I have no child support, sole custody and a rental business to run on top of my part time jobs. Today I found out I lost my health insurance two months ago from one of my jobs and they never told me. My house is usually a mess and I get grouchy about my kids being home and so needy most of the time. Point is, I get it, it's impossible what we are living through, no one could do it right or perfectly. But you are loved and you are worthy. Just keep walking.
Last edited by Gerda; 11/18/2001:31 AM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Thank you for the notes and advice. It has gotten me through the week. Some specific tidbits that had a particular impact on me:
Originally Posted by DnJ
The way to deal with this daily issue is to kind of not deal with it. Let it go. Just validate and keep moving forward. Your demonstrated good life is a beacon to him. Keep living it. If your life is a bit mysterious, good.
Thanks DnJ, this was perfect advice for me in that moment. It hasn't come up in the past few days so I am hoping that the validation and continued detachment is working in this department.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
A few extra hours a week as a compromise to help lift the burden when being subjected to the Spanish Inquisition because you want to run and take a long shower alone and in the quiet seems like you're taking on more. Not less.
This is true. I feel like a lot of energy goes into the balance of 'getting my needs met vs dealing with H's needs'. For a long time I allowed his needs to trump mine and it led us here. I need reminders like this to help me project the outcome and make sure the net net bottom line actually serves in my favor.
Originally Posted by may22
In terms of not contributing to the cycle of insecurities that may ultimately harm your co-parenting R, my worry is that this is a never-ending hole for both of you. You will never be able to have enough transparency to convince him, even if you wanted to, and he'll continue to think up ways that you might be "betraying" him because this is stemming from someplace inside him, not from you.
And beyond just the 'betrayal' issue, this applies to all of H's current narratives. They're his not mine and I need to decide how much I am willing to invest in his insecurities. (Back to WF's nudge which got me thinking about return on investment).
Originally Posted by wooba
And I would add, be careful of the "I'm flatter that he cares" narrative. My guess is that it's not YOU that he cares, it is his ego. That is not a sign of love, it is sign of control, insecurity, maybe even guilt.
Wooba, thanks for the tough but true reminder. I needed to read this to help me detach in this arena.
Originally Posted by Gerda
It will not feel possible to make it through this time or do all that you have to do, but all you have to do is keep walking through the fire. It will not last forever but right now all you can do is walk through it.
Thanks Gerda. True. Yes. Thanks for shining a light so I can focus on getting out of the tunnel.
WF, I missed this one a just read it today. Such good advice, I love the TikTok woman's approach and worldview.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
So care tasks - cooking, cleaning, laundry, grocery shopping. The things that you can finish but are never finished. She does a lot of work around not valuing yourself on how well, quickly or often you complete care tasks. That you are not valued as a person based on those things. That your home is a home it is lived in and there is no need to be a Better Homes and Gardens photo shoot. She also does a lot of work on allowing yourself the space to use short cuts like paper plates, ordering take out, paying a little more to have groceries delivered, whatever it may be to help ease the burden. She also talks about being willing to let the laundry pile up, or to not vacuum for days. To not force things in for the purposes of a tidy home, to do them because you feel like it, or because it needs to be done. And doing these things within the limits of how much you have the energy for. If you only have time and energy for 2 loads makes it underwear, socks and other essentials. Things like that. The self care part, she doesn't just talk about bubble baths and yoga. She talks about protective hairstyles for all types of hair so you don't have to wash your hair every day if don't have time or energy to shower every day. She talks about finding space for yourself during the day even if it means not being super mom and popping on some Disney+ and throwing fruit snacks at the kids.
I am still haunted by H's list of things he doesn't like about me and on that list was that I am messy. I am triggered by it and am working myself to the bone to maintain a tidy house in the midst of this chaos and 24/7 in-home, just to prove to myself that I am not in fact a messy person.
But whom am I doing it for? The ghost of H? Kind of makes me want to cry.
I am all about protective hairstyles, Disney +, olders watching littles, and my kids pulling their own weight around here. And those things have kept me going since homeschooling started in September. But I guess nearly three months in and I just need more... something. Time? Space? Autonomy? Another adult? Maybe I am just weak?
We are all suffering under the weight of this pandemic. I know I am not alone. I will get through this. I think everything is catching up with me.
After feeling good about things between me and H and the coparenting R we were building, we had a major setback the past couple days and I am feeling pretty rotten about it all.
An issue with eldest that required me to ask H for help triggered the return of spewing, monstering, hateful, abusive H. I am detached enough to see that the request for help triggered all his guilt, shame and insecurities, but I guess I am not detached enough to deal with the abuse that results.
Yesterday we had to have a difficult conversation (I found out I was exposed to a Covid + person this past weekend) and he kept telling me he couldn't hear me and did I have my phone on WiFi calling? Did I know how to work my phone? Ugh, argh, sigh, eye roll, sigh, anger, all but saying out loud 'stupid Sage'. I am crying (because I am scared due to Covid exposure and children etc) and kept saying to him 'I am feeling vulnerable with this news, can you please speak to me kindly?' But of course I am talking to an angry brick wall and the conversation made me feel worse, not better.
And now I am awaiting Covid test results and feeling low (but healthy, fingers crossed!) and kind of helpless and so, so, so SICK of this MLC (or whatever) behavior, of being the bigger person and of constantly tapping into my depleted resources to find the best approach to dealing with an insecure, immature, mean man-child father of my children.
I am still haunted by H's list of things he doesn't like about me and on that list was that I am messy. I am triggered by it and am working myself to the bone to maintain a tidy house in the midst of this chaos and 24/7 in-home, just to prove to myself that I am not in fact a messy person.
But whom am I doing it for? The ghost of H? Kind of makes me want to cry.
Oh Sage. You know my H also said the same thing to me and it really does BURN. And I don't really know why... there are so many other things he said or could say that just would roll right off but this one triggers.
Can you parse out why it matters to you? And let it go?
In my sitch I have bobbled between working my @ss off to have the house spotless because F him, and then letting it go to total sh!t because also F him. (Not detached.) And right now it is a nightmare because we also decided, you know, to add some renovation to the stress of everything else and there is just cr@p EVERYWHERE.
For me, getting some handle on the clutter also helps to calm my mind, and so there are some things I've done to manage it somewhat without making myself nuts, now that I'm back to doing what I can manage and no more, knowing that H is fully capable of pulling his own weight in this department. If it helps:
-- I got a roomba which I LOVE (emptying it out is the most satisfying part of my day). When I first got it I would let it drive all around and put my feet up and drink a glass of wine and giggle to myself that I was vacuuming. Silly, I know, but hey. It made me feel good. Also, H never wanted a Roomba. So the having of it is totally for ME.
-- I got baskets and put them in each room and dump all the cr@p my kids and H leave around the house into the basket. My H also does not like this solution as he thinks things should go back where they belong, but I like it because it is very easy and fast and removes the clutter from my line of sight, therefore is calming to me. Every once in awhile I make the kids sort through the baskets and return things where they go.
-- Is there a space that is just yours that you can keep clean and calming, like maybe the MBR? And places you can simply close the door and stop worrying about for now, like the kids BRs?
I don't know if any of this is helpful at all-- just wanted to share what has been helping me in a similar spot.
And onto the phone call and the potential COVID exposure... first, HUGS. That is awful and terrifying and I know you are probably really stressing out about it. It absolutely svcks that you can't express this to the father of your children without him doing this. And yes, probably he feels scared and guilty and that he should be there and he can't and whatever whatever whatever... but that is his problem, not yours.
Gently... maybe it is time to stop the in-person and phone conversations for a bit and move to text and email. If he is unable to control himself without being cruel to you, there is no need to continue the conversation. Maybe interrupting him to say this conversation isn't going anywhere and we can continue it another time, and hang up? OR set the phone down and let him jabber to empty air for awhile until you feel better and can pick it back up? I know I have signed up to eat the $hit sandwiches in my sitch for now, but you don't have to. His problems are not yours to manage anymore. Remember how inspiring Alison is in not letting her H spew at her anymore? You can do that too. He has no right to treat you that way and YOU DO NOT NEED TO LISTEN TO IT.
In the moment, if you aren't able to end the conversation and feel you need to listen, here is another strategy I used when H was telling me crazy stuff and I was trying to paste a pleasant expression on my face and listen-- in my head, I would just say over and over, @sshole, @sshole, @sshole. Like a chant. Until he stopped talking. I also made up little songs that I still play in my head sometimes. I'm sure that isn't the healthiest or most evolved coping mechanism, but it allowed me to stop paying attention to the words he was saying and realize how ridiculous he was being, and that none of it was really about me.
I know you have a strong network IRL and I really hope you are pulling on it right now. (For some reason I think you live in Seattle or thereabouts.. no need to respond but that is where I grew up... but wishing right now that I could call you on the phone and listen or give you whatever support you need.) I also know you mentioned you're having a hard time being able to exercise and another little thing I started doing a year or more ago which has been a lifesaver is the 7 minute NYT exercises every morning. There's an app (the one I use is called seven) and it is just seven minutes but really, really helped me feel strong and more in shape. The kids fight over who sits on my feet for the crunches portion and we made up silly names for some of the exercises (which make us all laugh so not really super effective on the exercise part when the kids are there, but it is fun). Maybe your kids will want to do it with you too. Or, you can do it on your own while they watch Disney Plus. Just wondering if there are ways you can incorporate little self-care routines into your day to day without needing to rely on your H to kick in.
When you feel depleted, you need to prioritize filling your own tank. Be kind to yourself. HUGS.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
ExH complained about my housekeeping like it was his 2nd job. Now ask if he did a d@mn thing to help me. Part of the reason I knew H was the one was my housekeeping simply isn't on his radar. Even in the worst of it. Never a complaint. Never bemoaning me. Someone else who got on me about my cleaning skills was my step-father. I don't keep an immaculate house because to be completely honest cleaning triggers me. My step-father was a white glove test kind of guy. I had my face shoved against a toilet bowl because he couldn't eat off of it. I spent many, many years working on cleaning a) not triggering me b)not accepting someone bemoaning my housekeeping as a personal attack c)not valuing myself based on my ability to juggle being a mom, a partner, a full time employed adult, and a human being with keeping a super clean house. Take it from me. Don't let that ghost haunt you. He isn't worth living rent free in your head.
Also I'm with May the amount of communication you have with Mr. Crazy Pants is clearly detrimental to you. I wasn't friends with exH or H until they could be a friend to me. So what I have to say next I don't say to lay more at your feet, but I remember how much you once were home alone with those kiddos while you were married and H was traveling. I know he came home and you had some relief. Can you sit and recall those days? Can you think about what would make your life easier during those times. How you got through all that time alone with even younger children you have now? I'm not demanding you take on the burden of 4 children with no back up, but I just want you to know you are dealing with an unstable co-parent and over the next few years if not more you are going to be on this road alone more often than not. He will be unreliable. He won't be there you when you need him. He won't be there when the kids need him. Sometimes he will. Sometimes he'll be exactly who you need him to be, but that isn't going to be a guarantee. I think it would be good to dig deep and start thinking about how you're going to manage this completely on your own. Who will be reliable. Who will support you when you need it. What is Sage's life going to look like with out H in it?
You shouldn't have to do this alone. You don't deserve this. You should be supported. You should have time to breathe. But that just might not be you're reality here and you should probably start thinking about what your new normal is going to look like.
And like May said. Over all be kind to yourself. Radical self love. xoxoxo
I don't keep an immaculate house because to be completely honest cleaning triggers me. My step-father was a white glove test kind of guy. I had my face shoved against a toilet bowl because he couldn't eat off of it.
Oh wayfarer - that's awful. If I may suggest, if it's ever in your budget to do so, a cleaning service twice a month would probably be worth every cent to you, to avoid those triggering memories.
And now I am awaiting Covid test results and feeling low (but healthy, fingers crossed!) and kind of helpless and so, so, so SICK of this MLC (or whatever) behavior, of being the bigger person and of constantly tapping into my depleted resources to find the best approach to dealing with an insecure, immature, mean man-child father of my children.
I feel depleted.
Hey Sage, just want to wish you good luck on the Covid test, and reassure you that you can do this. You may not win mother of the year, but you will keep those kiddos alive and well.
I second wayfarer on start accepting the reality that you can only count on yourself now. no expectations of H "doing the right thing". My H will still help sometimes, but he is not definitely the most reliable.
Hi everyone, thank you for your advice and support... I tested Covid - on day 6 and remain symptom-free so unlikely I have it. Hooray! Still in quarantine until 14 days since exposure pass, but I am feeling OK about it all.
It does mean that H is the only other adult I could spend Thanksgiving with and we have decided that we will spend it together as a family. Our interactions have improved since the 'Covid Day' and this feels like the best thing for me at the moment. The kids are excited about Thanksgiving and I don't really feel like doing it all on my own. These days I feel I can be happy and myself even when H is around. And so far, it has been about 2 months since in-person spewing happened, so it feels even safer than being on the phone at the moment.
We had another suspicion episode (while I was under quarantine... go figure), but I have decided to take the higher road on his jealousy and just explain my whereabouts or what I was up to as nonchalantly as if it were my mom asking. Maybe if we weren't in a global pandemic I would tell him to mind his own business, but for now this is the approach I am taking.
He asked me to pick up the kids the other night and when I arrived, he invited me in for a glass of wine and a chat, a first at his place (and the reason why he asked me to pick them up, but I didn't know it at the time). We talked about the schedule this week and some holiday-related stuff, but it felt easy and comfortable. These sorts of interactions are good tests to my detachment (I think I prefer non-attachment, but you guys know what I mean). How to experience them without any projections of what H is thinking or feeling. No expectations protect me the most.
H has been helping with homeschooling the past few days. I have been able to exercise almost daily. May, I love NYT's 7 min exercises... thanks for turning me onto them again! Also, 10-20-30 is another gem that I learned via NYT for HIIT workouts. I am truly not an exercise junkie, but these little bursts of endorphins are critical to my mental well-being, especially now.
And f*** the house. Wayfarer, I am so sorry for what your Stepdad did to you and it helped put it all in perspective for me. I am giving myself permission to clean if I need to for my own mental health and just leave it if I don't. I don't want H's monster comment of a year ago to be a trigger for me any longer. I am a single mom with four kids that I am homeschooling with very little help... I would never, ever judge another person about the cleanliness of their home so in what cruel world am I allowing so much self-judgement on this issue? And even more importantly I don't want my daughters to be defined by their ability to maintain a perfect home or not so I better start leading my example.
And helpfully, the kids and I came up with a point system for earning screen time. There is a list of things relating to both school and household chores; half the earned points are non-negotiable and the other half are chores that they can choose from to accrue their screen time. They were good about chores prior to this, but it has really upped the ante and they love that they are now being rewarded for their efforts (I am one of those moms that doesn't monetize chores... they live here, they can help out without pay like I do). And earning lots of extra points earns them more screen time so they are super motivated.
Happy Thanksgiving to all my US friends. Wishing you all, health and happiness!
Thanksgiving was a mixed bag for me. H arrived 2 hours later than he said he would, which is not something he would ever do to anyone else in his life, manners mean so much to him. I felt disrespected, but didn't show it and let it go.
I had to run out to grab something from my mom's house. I would have done so prior to his arrival if I knew he was going to be so late, but I decided to wait until he got to my house so eldest wouldn't have to babysit. Another Spanish Inquisition ensued: why didn't I ask him to grab said item on his way? What was I actually doing there? Was I being safe (as in not kissing someone? Having a 1 second quickie? For heavens sake!)? etc etc. I really wanted the 20 mins to myself to have a quick cry about him being late and not having the courtesy to let me know. He lied to me about why he was late, outed himself within three sentences, which was a double stab.
We had a pleasant dinner and some good conversations, but he left early. All I have been craving for the past 12 days of quarantine was some adult company and I would have accepted other offers if I knew he was going to be so quick to leave. I have a hunch he went home to call OW, or whatever she is.
My wise child said later 'mama, I see that Daddy wants to be around you, hugs you and acts like he wants the divorce to go away and then he starts to act weird again. That must be really confusing for you and probably makes you really sad.' What did I do to deserve these wise children?
Another Spanish Inquisition this morning when he came to collect the kids for the day/evening. I gently confronted him by asking if we could talk and said that his suspicions scared me, that I had no control of his narrative despite my transparency and asked what he needed from me. I know that is a redundant question that he can't answer, and it was probably way to generous of me to ask in the first place, but it was the only way I felt at the time I could deflect his questions. He managed to turn it around on me before rescinding his 'yes' to talking about it. I accepted that he didn't want to talk and walked away with no bitterness.
I am feeling low, confused and not so detached at the moment. I think I need to come up with some sort of conversation to stop this whole projection from being mine to deal with. Any suggestions welcome.
My only suggestion is to see him as a guy you are considering dating. There is some potential there, but nothing is definite. You would never pretzel yourself like this with a guy you are considering. Don't do it with your H. I know it's so hard. But you should not be explaining yourself. No amount of explaining will ever satisfy him. Be busy and be breezy. If he wants to see you and you feel like it, do. If he acts like a jerk, just say, "Oh gosh, I don't want to hang out with you if you are going to act crazy" and pat his arm if you want and leave. LEAVE. The room, the restaurant, whatever it is. Don't participate in any drama. He is a teenager. And he is looking for reasons to hate you. No matter what you do, he will look for them and might believe them even if you are perfect.
Your child is amazing, amazing. My son understands everything but my D is selective and my H is working on her all the time, badmouthing me, so she is often confused, and I am often battling feelings that she is betraying me. Complicated stuff. So much easier when they can see things clearly.
Last edited by Gerda; 11/28/2005:31 AM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Forgive me but I'm going to say something that you may not like or agree with, but I'm going to do it anyway and feel free to completely disregard it if you want. I think you are pushing yourself too hard to be this zen master level co-parent who can have a beautiful, loving holiday meal with her ex and their children, and you just really aren't there yet. You want to be, and there are days and weeks when you can be, but it feels like every other time you see him or spend time with him he acts like an @ss, it goes south, and it takes a huge toll on you.
And, he clearly isn't ready to be that person either. He is confused and can't seem to handle even the tiniest bit of interaction with you. Two hours late to Thanksgiving, lies, crazy-making suspicion and questioning (and I still feel he has zero right to ask those questions of you, period), leaves early. He can't be the enlightened co-parent partner to you either. He's too attached and scared and completely at a loss about what he wants. (As your child sees.)
Why are you pushing yourself, and him, to get to this next level so quickly? I think you need more time to let yourself heal and stop irritating the scab. Would you consider taking a real break from him for a month? No in-person conversations beyond the general pleasantries, no phone calls beyond what is absolutely necessary for the kids? And once you feel totally calm and settled and ready to face whatever he gives you with equanimity, take another few weeks and then test the waters?
To me, it feels a little bit like what you're trying to do right now is piece with him, except your goal isn't a renewed MR but a perfect co-parenting R. But he's not capable of being that partner to you, just like he isn't capable of being your H. He doesn't truly know what he wants, I think, so he can't be all-in on the perfect co-parenting R because he's not totally sure he doesn't still want the MR, in some ways. And then OW and what does that all mean, and his children, and all the fears and confusion seem to be overwhelming to him.
I feel like that perfect friendly co-parenting DR is probably harder to achieve than reconciling in an MR and requires so many of the same ingredients-- shared goals, strong communication, trust, respect. I feel like you're pressuring him into this new kind of R and he just isn't ready. And then he acts like a jerk and you react and maybe you're not really ready for that place yet, either.
Your child is amazing, I agree with Gerda. To me it makes it even easier to put a stop to letting him treat you like this, because your child sees it and knows it hurts and you still go back for more the next day.
I don't get the sense with you at all that you're hoping he'll snap out of it and tell you he wants back in tomorrow... but I do think you are expecting/hoping he will be different in another way, whether it is stopping this ridiculous Spanish Inquisition behavior, stopping the lying, stopping the disrespectful treatment... and nothing you do can make that happen. My guess is he has enough self-awareness that he knows he's being an idiot about the jealousy thing and he still can't help it. He knows he's being rude by showing up late and he knows you know he's lying. He probably feels at some level pretty $hitty about all of that too. But he doesn't have the self-control to do anything differently, right now. Why do you keep giving him the opportunity to fail? It hurts both of you, I think.
I know I asked this before, too, but I'll ask it again-- what stops you from emulating Alison when you get the spew or the inappropriate questioning? Can you draw a boundary around engaging in these conversations and simply STOP when they happen-- walk away, set down the phone, calmly say this is not okay for you to treat me like this and then remove yourself from the equation?
I'm glad you're feeling better about the house and homeschooling and able to get some exercise in. It makes such a difference. I hope you're feeling a bit better about Thanksgiving and indulging in some leftovers and pie and Netflix Christmas specials for the weekend. xx M
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I slept on this and then wanted to add... I have 100% faith that you WILL get permanently to that place of enlightened compassion and be a beacon for others. It may just not be tomorrow, and there is no need to force it. It will come. I just think you need a bit more time to heal without H pressing on your bruises. xx
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I am feeling low, confused and not so detached at the moment. I think I need to come up with some sort of conversation to stop this whole projection from being mine to deal with. Any suggestions welcome.
H’s projections are not your fault nor your problem. Let them go.
I am going to pass on some very wise words:
Quote
'mama, I see that Daddy wants to be around you, hugs you and acts like he wants the divorce to go away and then he starts to act weird again. That must be really confusing for you and probably makes you really sad.'
Listen to those wise words.
Yes, H’s behaviour is going to be confusing. Detach yourself from his behaviour and his projections. Time and space. Focus on you and your kids.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I’ve been on covid isolation too and devoid of all adult contact and actually spent thanksgiving all by myself. So I feel your pain, trust me. My exH actually invited me to thanksgiving with him and his wife ( which is his AP) ( it was my year to have our daughter, but I sent her there so she didn’t have to stare at the wall with me) . I politely declines, because without boundaries I wouldn’t have such a good coparenting relationship.
Which brings me to that aspect. I probably have one of the best coparenting relationships you’ll see here on these boards. And my ex probably did me the dirtiest. When I was pregnant with our first and only child , he was seeing her behind my back and left me for her when our daughter was 6 months old. On my case, the AP never went away. They married and are still married. I had 13 years of coparenting with my ex and his AP. Imagine that. I’ll cut to the chase though. The level of coparenting j have achieved came only after full detachment and not wanting him back at all. We are all friendly, his wife likes me, he likes me, and would just hang out with me if I were to allow, he all of a sudden after 13 years is very helpful and kind to me, helping with projects around my house, bringing me food, etc. I am the same way with him. But seriously, this degree and on this level cannot happen unless you have accepted the marriage is over and you yourself do not want this person back at all. And like I said, I have boundaries to keep it this way and one of those boundaries is never to celebrate a holiday together.
The comment your child made to you. It’s very observant. And I imagine what he said was his way of saying “ I’m also very confused by this behavior” and I am sure it truly is very confusing. Which is also why I limited playing family in the beginning. We did things like take her for Santa pictures together a d celebrate her birthday together and sit together at school stuff, and maybe 2 dinners together a year. But we knew it would be awfully confusing for her. It’s not anymore . She’s simply very happy to have 2 divorced parents who get along. I want you to think about what your child said. If it could be that confusing to you, how about them?
And on the messy house thing. I can’t help but laugh. I heard the same thing! And guess what. My house is decent and his is like a hoarders zone! His wife has a hoarding problem. I still have personal delight when I walk into his messy house and he walks into my mostly clean house . And I became obsessive after a while because the clutter bothered me. But I realize I live in an active home where people Are living. Time spent with my kid was more important than having a perfectly neat house. My parents were also OCD clean. My dad is still alive ( mom is not) and I get crazy before he comes over because he will comment on my level of cleanliness and it’s not always nice.
Your kids are loved and cared for. That’s number 1 and trumps all.
Ginger, OMG! You are a WARRIOR PRINCESS! WOW. Love the clean versus hoarder thing too.
Sage, I am sending you a big big hug today. I have my waves of low all the time. They used to last 24 hours per day, then 12. Now they are actually waves that come and go. Sometimes I have a whole day without them. A priest once told me not to see them with fear. He said -- If I had a broken arm and it hurt sometimes, I wouldn't be afraid I was going to break my arm -- I would know it's already broken and that the pain was coming from that. And that it would heal at some point. That helped me so much, to see my LBS pain that way.
Not that you don't end up writhing on the floor sobbing your brains out sometimes. But rain is good for the soil.
Last edited by Gerda; 11/29/2005:13 PM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Sending you big hugs, Sage. All of this advice is helping me too. Gerda, I love the broken arm metaphor. It’s just what I needed today, another way to think about this wave I’m experiencing.
My only suggestion is to see him as a guy you are considering dating. There is some potential there, but nothing is definite. You would never pretzel yourself like this with a guy you are considering. Don't do it with your H. I know it's so hard. But you should not be explaining yourself. No amount of explaining will ever satisfy him. Be busy and be breezy. If he wants to see you and you feel like it, do. If he acts like a jerk, just say, "Oh gosh, I don't want to hang out with you if you are going to act crazy" and pat his arm if you want and leave. LEAVE. The room, the restaurant, whatever it is. Don't participate in any drama. He is a teenager. And he is looking for reasons to hate you. No matter what you do, he will look for them and might believe them even if you are perfect.
So true, Gerda. Thank you for this. Especially the reminder that no matter what I say or do, he has his own narrative and I can't change that. I definitely would NOT be dating someone like him.
Originally Posted by may22
I think you are pushing yourself too hard to be this zen master level co-parent who can have a beautiful, loving holiday meal with her ex and their children, and you just really aren't there yet.
May, thank you for the 2x4, you are absolutely right. I have been thinking about what you said over the past few days and I think that maybe my detachment has allowed me to eclipse his current state and move into a space that he is not ready to be in with me. And maybe if I am really honest, I am not there yet either. I can handle things well when they are going OK, I can be the bigger person when there are small negative interactions few and far between, but I can't handle the big interactions yet.
And to further your comment, it is unfair of me to set him up for failure. To set both of us up for failure by expecting or hoping we are further along in the process than we really are. Part of me wants to keep the good times going because I see glimmers of his old self and glimmers of his second-guessing his decision. But the comedown is too hard when he reverts back to his spiral.
Originally Posted by Ginger1
The comment your child made to you. It’s very observant. And I imagine what he said was his way of saying “ I’m also very confused by this behavior” and I am sure it truly is very confusing. Which is also why I limited playing family in the beginning. We did things like take her for Santa pictures together a d celebrate her birthday together and sit together at school stuff, and maybe 2 dinners together a year. But we knew it would be awfully confusing for her. It’s not anymore . She’s simply very happy to have 2 divorced parent
Ginger, thanks so much for stopping by my thread! I loved hearing more about your story and appreciate your insight. How are you feeling? Is your quarantine over yet? What a drag this whole pandemic is.
You are so right about boundaries and holidays. I like your blanket approach to holidays and I totally get why it works.
And thanks for pointing out the confusion my kids are also feeling. As much as I am suffering right now, they are suffering so much more.
Cardi, thanks for the hugs, friend. I thought of you on Thanksgiving and was happy to read your update on DnJ's thread. You sound so good right now, sprinkle some of your magic on me, ok?
Journaling:
I am terrible at boundaries right now. H wanted to come over this evening and talk to the kids about taking them on a mini trip for a couple of days this week. I should have said he could have the conversation over the phone, I have been keeping my distance since Thanksgiving, but I allowed him to come. Something he said to me in a tone of voice I didn't like made me snap at him and it spiraled from there. I am finding myself putting him and his needs first a lot of the time, even very subconsciously and covertly, and it keeps biting me
I am really digging into my soul and questioning my own motives: am I back to trying to 'nice' him back? There is really no other person on this planet I would allow to treat me like this and frankly no other person on this planet who would even consider treating me like this. And I have split my soul open looking for all the terrible, dark, mean sides of myself, the sides that would be deserving of being abandoned like this, cleaning up as much of my side of the street as thoroughly as I can. And I still can't find justification for what he is doing. I am not perfect, but I am nowhere near the devil incarnate he makes me out to be when he feels justified to do so.
Are his actions a projection of how he feels about himself? Or do I need to continue digging through his muck to find those threads of truth about myself?
Sage, don't wait six years to start reading about narcissistic abuse like I did.
Your H is abusing you. Maybe it's an MLC, and maybe it's MLC combined with a personality disorder and maybe it's just the personality disorder that he couldn't control anymore.
Either way, reading about it will give you tools and clarity.
My journey started with learning how to love unconditionally and that brought me to faith. So maybe it's good that I didn't read about that stuff early on.
I am seven years in and I still have to reread the NPD stuff because I get confused too. I even have a counseling session with a NPD expert later this week so I can try to handle my next court appearance without the confusion you are expressing in your post here.
There is NO JUSTIFICATION FOR HIS TREATMENT OF YOU AND IT'S NOT YOU.
Did you ever read CS Lewis' The Last Battle? There is a scene at the end that describes the MLCer perfectly. Your H can't see anything clearly right now, he doesn't see what you see. There is no point in trying to get him to see until he is able to see it for himself. Here is the scene. They are all in a place as beautiful as Paradise.
"Friends with them!" cried Eustace. "If you knew how those Dwarfs have been behaving!""Oh stop it, Eustace," said Lucy. "Do come and see them. King Tirian, perhaps you could do something with them.""I can feel no great love for Dwarfs to-day," said Tirian. "Yet at your asking, Lady, I would do a greater thing than this."Lucy led the way and soon they could all see the Dwarfs. They had a very odd look. They weren't strolling about or enjoying themselves (although the cords with which they had been tied seemed to have vanished) nor were they lying down and having a rest. They were sitting very close together in a little circle facing one another. They never looked round or took any notice of the humans till Lucy and Tirian were almost near enough to touch them. Then the Dwarfs all cocked their heads as if they couldn't see any one but were listening hard and trying to guess by the sound what was happening."Look out!" said one of them in a surly voice. "Mind where you're going. Don't walk into our faces!""All right!" said Eustace indignantly. "We're not blind. We've got eyes in our heads.""They must be darn good ones if you can see in here," said the same Dwarf whose name was Diggle."In where?" asked Edmund."Why you bone-head, in here of course," said Diggle. "In this pitch-black, poky, smelly little hole of a stable.""Are you blind?" said Tirian."Ain't we all blind in the dark!" said Diggle."But it isn't dark, you poor stupid Dwarfs," said Lucy. "Can't you see? Look up! Look round! Can't you see the sky and the trees and the flowers? Can't you see me?""How in the name of all Humbug can I see what ain't there? And how can I see you any more than you can see me in this pitch darkness?""But I can see you," said Lucy. "I'll prove I can see you. You've got a pipe in your mouth.""Anyone that knows the smell of baccy could tell that," said Diggle."Oh the poor things! This is dreadful," said Lucy. Then she had an idea. She stooped and picked some wild violets. "Listen, Dwarf," she said. "Even if your eyes are wrong, perhaps your nose is all right: can you smell that." She leaned across and held the fresh, damp flowers to Diggle's ugly nose. But she had to jump back quickly in order to avoid a blow from his hard little fist."None of that!" he shouted. "How dare you! What do you mean by shoving a lot of filthy stable-litter in my face? There was a thistle in it too. It's like your sauce! And who are you anyway?""Earth-man," said Tirian, "she is the Queen Lucy, sent hither by Aslan out of the deep past. And it is for her sake alone that I, Tirian, your lawful King, do not cut all your heads from your shoulders, proved and twice-proved traitors that you are."
"Well if that doesn't beat everything!" exclaimed Diggle. "How canyou go on talking all that rot? Your wonderful Lion didn't come and help you, did he? Thought not. And now — even now — when you've been beaten and shoved into this black hole, just the same as the rest of us, you're still at your old game. Starting a new lie! Trying to make us believe we're none of us shut up, and it ain't dark, and heaven knows what.""There is no black hole, save in your own fancy, fool," cried Tirian. "Come out of it." And, leaning forward, he caught Diggle by the belt and the hood and swung him right out of the circle of Dwarfs. But the moment Tirian put him down, Diggle darted back to his place among the others, rubbing his nose and howling:"Ow! Ow! What d'you do that for! Banging my face against the wall. You've nearly broken my nose.""Oh dear!" said Lucy "What are we to do for them?""Let 'em alone," said Eustace: but as he spoke the earth trembled. The sweet air grew suddenly sweeter. A brightness flashed behind them. All turned. Tirian turned last because he was afraid. There stood his heart's desire, huge and real, the golden Lion, Aslan himself, and already the others were kneeling in a circle round his forepaws and burying their hands and faces in his mane as he stooped his great head to touch them with his tongue. Then he fixed his eyes upon Tirian, and Tirian came near, trembling, and flung himself at the Lion's feet, and the Lion kissed him and said, "Well done, last of the Kings of Narnia who stood firm at the darkest hour.""Aslan," said Lucy through her tears, "could you — will you — do something for these poor Dwarfs?""Dearest," said Aslan, "I will show you both what I can, and what I cannot, do."
He came close to the Dwarfs and gave a low growl: low, but it set all the air shaking. But the Dwarfs said to one another, "Hear that? That's the gang at the other end of the Stable. Trying to frighten us. They do it with a machine of some kind. Don't take any notice. They won't take us in again!"Aslan raised his head and shook his mane. Instantly a glorious feast appeared on the Dwarfs' knees: pies and tongues and pigeons and trifles and ices, and each Dwarf had a goblet of good wine in his right hand. But it wasn't much use. They began eating and drinking greedily enough, but it was clear that they couldn't taste it properly. They thought they were eating and drinking only the sort of things you might find in a Stable. One said he was trying to eat hay and another said he had got a bit of an old turnip and a third said he'd found a raw cabbage leaf. And they raised golden goblets of rich red wine to their lips and said "Ugh! Fancy drinking dirty water out of a trough that a donkey's been at! Never thought we'd come to this." But very soon every Dwarf began suspecting that every other Dwarf had found something nicer than he had, and they started grabbing and snatching, and went on to quarrelling, till in a few minutes there was a free fight and all the good food was smeared on their faces and clothes or trodden under foot. But when at last they sat down to nurse their black eyes and their bleeding noses, they all said:"Well, at any rate there's no Humbug here. We haven't let anyone take us in. The Dwarfs are for the Dwarfs."
"You see," said Aslan. "They will not let us help them. They have chosen cunning instead of belief. Their prison is only in their own minds, yet they are in that prison; and so afraid of being taken in that they can not be taken out. But come, children. I have other work to do."He went to the Door and they all followed him. He raised his head and roared "Now it is time!" then louder "Time!"; then so loud that it could have shaken the stars, "TIME." The Door flew open.
Last edited by Gerda; 12/01/2006:17 AM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
I am really digging into my soul and questioning my own motives: am I back to trying to 'nice' him back? There is really no other person on this planet I would allow to treat me like this and frankly no other person on this planet who would even consider treating me like this. And I have split my soul open looking for all the terrible, dark, mean sides of myself, the sides that would be deserving of being abandoned like this, cleaning up as much of my side of the street as thoroughly as I can. And I still can't find justification for what he is doing. I am not perfect, but I am nowhere near the devil incarnate he makes me out to be when he feels justified to do so.
Are his actions a projection of how he feels about himself? Or do I need to continue digging through his muck to find those threads of truth about myself?
Sage, my heart is hurting so much for you right now.
This is not on you. This is entirely on him. The idea of you spending time trying to figure out what is wrong with you to answer why he is acting like this... oh Sage. It really is making me feel something like despair.
What does your IC say about this?
I truly think more space and time from him will help both of you. Maybe it is easier for you to do this if you think about it less about being something you need to do for yourself, and rather think of it as something you're doing for others-- it being less confusing for the children and giving him the space he needs to not monster. The more he does this kind of thing the deeper he digs his own hole for himself.
But really, you should do it for yourself, because you don't deserve to be treated this way, you don't want your children to see their father treat their mother this way, and there is absolutely no reason to give him this power over you. You need to put yourself first for awhile. What happened to not your circus, not your monkeys? You're letting those dang monkeys in the house. Keep them outside.
(((Sage)))
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
No no no, Sage. Trust that he socks. Please stop gaslighting yourself and don’t entertain his attempts for a single minute.
I was kind of surprised to read that you believe you might be trying to nice him back. In what context do you want him back— husband or coparent? And why?
You cannot heal in the same environment that made you sick. Parallel parenting for a time might help you get the distance you need to get a more accurate perspective.
If you believe you have work to do on yourself, then do so independently of your relationship and any desired outcome. However, I suspect that you just need to gain some confidence in your own character.
I'm sure you read and are treasuring DnJ's amazing response on his thread to your question about the difference between non-attachment and detachment. Here is something that really struck me in/re your sitch:
Originally Posted by DnJ
Once detached, indifference can be found. And the healing that comes from not being dragged around and being able to search within yourself without all the noise from our MLCer. It’s how one finds their beliefs and values, IMHO.
Then, later, after compassion, understanding, empathy, and such we roll back the indifference. Our feelings and emotions return, and yet we are still detached.
A few things happen along the way. The emotional coupling equipment to our spouse is destroyed. We are no longer dragged around. We also become a “car”. Along those four paths - physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual. We are in control of our own lives. We are the driver.
I may be totally off base on this, but when I read your posts it feels like indifference is somehow a negative state, for you, or that you are viewing it as such. Maybe not. But I do get that sense, and again that you're trying to fast forward past all this pain into the compassion, understanding, and empathy space... and that simply isn't possible. You have to spend time in detachment and indifference before you can find those other emotions, truly.
I am realizing this same thing myself, in my own sitch. Scout posted a beautiful piece on forgiveness and the ingredients it takes to truly forgive on my thread, and there is a lot of similarities between that and what DnJ writes about indifference being a path to compassion/understanding.
It's okay to let go and not care about H for awhile. Are you scared of completely letting go, of what that might mean for you as a person? Can you trust that you will BECOME and the compassion will come rolling in when you're fully ready... but it isn't a process you can hurry, or a step you can skip? (Even DnJ had to go through a process of indifference!! Think of that!!)
I just don't think you're really detached. Being able to have thick skin for the little uglinesses he pitches to you is a great first step... but until you can deal with the full on monstering and think... meh... maybe feel a little sorry and embarrassed for him... that is when you'll know you're detached. Whether consciously or not, he keeps throwing his hook over towards your trailer to see if the coupling equipment is still there, and it keeps hitting the bullseye.
You can't be a driver and a trailer at the same time. You're the driver in absolutely every other aspect of your life. You probably felt like the driver in your MR too, I bet, being the one doing all the emotional work of raising the family and managing the business and household with him traveling, etc.
I feel like you're looking at this awful situation your H has dumped you in and rolling up your sleeves and making a checklist to be sure it turns into the best possible outcome (not unlike how I look at things, too). Detachment? check. Now on to compassion and thoughtful, communicative co-parenting.
But maybe there are a whole bunch of mini steps within detachment and you need to reexamine that big step and sit there for a bit, strengthen your boundaries, practice indifference, and just BE in that space for awhile until it feels comfortable and you're confident that coupler is gone for good.
I know this is so hard. We are all here for you. xoxo M
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I clearly am struggling more than I thought I was with everything. Reading all of your words and rereading my own journaling proves how far I have to come.
I am not a conflict-avoiding person by nature, but my soul simply cannot stand when things are negative, mean and messy between us. Is it because I am in such shock by this turn of events in my life that I cannot put the pieces together? There is something there for me with the children, as in how in the world could a smart, intuitive person like me chosen someone capable of this level of lowness as the father of my children? And please believe me when I say that there is not a single person in our vast family and friend network who can believe what is happening, so I am not just some blind lackey or Pollyanna in all of this.
Maybe I can be detached but I haven't come to acceptance? I definitely feel like I have had moments of acceptance in the past couple of months, but maybe I am just swinging back in the non-linear grief process?
I also can't kick this feeling that he is going to come back. That we are twin flames as Wayfarer felt with her H. Our marriage has been so good, productive, loving and we have both achieved so much in our lives together, dreamed bigger dreams than either of us could have done on our own and made those dreams into reality.
I know deep down he needs to do a lot of work on himself and I am attempting to do the same. So maybe some of my actions come from a place of damage mitigation? That if I stay calm, remain loyal and steady, be the lighthouse, he has less walls to bang against, at least where I am concerned.
I think May you are right in that I fear indifference. I am worried that once I reach indifference, I will leave this relationship behind forever. That indifference will close the door forever. And maybe I am not ready for that.
I have to be honest I’m not caught up but I think you may be back in denial. Last I remember you didn’t want to do kid’s birthdays together and now I see you had Thanksgiving together. Then he asks some questions about your whereabouts and I think that got your hopes up. I admire your position to stand but to do so you have to understand there will be a lot of suffering. I don’t remember if divorce is in the process or not but until it’s off the table then I suggest you keep moving forward.
So I got a text from a friend last night that her friend is getting back with his ex w after being divorced for nine years. So it does happen but I would hate to see you suffering for nine years.
Yes, grief is a non-linear process. And one will be in various stages regarding different aspects of their situation.
Originally Posted by Sage4
Is it because I am in such shock by this turn of events in my life that I cannot put the pieces together? There is something there for me with the children, as in how in the world could a smart, intuitive person like me chosen someone capable of this level of lowness as the father of my children? And please believe me when I say that there is not a single person in our vast family and friend network who can believe what is happening, so I am not just some blind lackey or Pollyanna in all of this.
Maybe I can be detached but I haven't come to acceptance? I definitely feel like I have had moments of acceptance in the past couple of months, but maybe I am just swinging back in the non-linear grief process?
I also can't kick this feeling that he is going to come back. That we are twin flames as Wayfarer felt with her H. Our marriage has been so good, productive, loving and we have both achieved so much in our lives together, dreamed bigger dreams than either of us could have done on our own and made those dreams into reality.
I know deep down he needs to do a lot of work on himself and I am attempting to do the same. So maybe some of my actions come from a place of damage mitigation? That if I stay calm, remain loyal and steady, be the lighthouse, he has less walls to bang against, at least where I am concerned.
Grief is about us, our emotions. Acceptance is emotional understanding. Grief progresses not by what happens externally; its progress is from internal movement.
For the most part, it looks like you are currently within bargaining and working towards depression/acceptance.
Bargaining with who or what? The answer - yourself.
Bargaining is the last ditch efforts of trying to keep our lives “normal” and return back to as things were. We attempt all kinds of emotional ideas and bargains until we step into the realization, and depression, that things have changed and there is no going back. Grief is the process of accepting loss.
Remember this is your process. Your emotional self is bargaining right now. Perfectly normal, perfectly fine, perfectly healthy. It’s a process, and not a very fun one at that. (((Sage))) This is a tough thing to get through.
Originally Posted by Sage4
...I fear indifference. I am worried that once I reach indifference, I will leave this relationship behind forever. That indifference will close the door forever. And maybe I am not ready for that.
Yes, you fear indifference. You are imagining a future event and scared about it.
True, indifference does quiet our feelings towards our spouse. We feel numb towards them. This is a healthy and needed place to be in. One really can hear themselves when all the emotional noise regarding their spouse is muted.
When our feelings do return, we are in a better and accepting place.
A few things to remember and utilize going forward:
Remember your feelings. Remember your stand. Remember it when you are indifferent.
Do not make decisions from emotions or the lack thereof. Remember your feelings do return. Wait until then to decided upon further life altering changes.
You need not decided anything right now. Indifference doesn’t close the door. It just mutes your emotions towards H. We close the door - so don’t do that. Keep standing and moving forward.
Stand for you. Standing really takes on meaning when you are healed enough to stand down.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I also can't kick this feeling that he is going to come back. That we are twin flames as Wayfarer felt with her H. Our marriage has been so good, productive, loving and we have both achieved so much in our lives together, dreamed bigger dreams than either of us could have done on our own and made those dreams into reality.
Much like I told May about eating her sh!t sandwiches I'm going to have to tell you that point of indifference. That loving detachment was a survival skill for me. I waded through these murky ugly waters so well because all the techniques one has to learn to survive this are the ones I learned in childhood simply to survive. This isn't going to be easy for you. This is one of those counterintuitive things we are barked at about over and over again when we got here. Loving someone but giving them the space to make their own mistakes and find their own way is counterintuitive to someone as warm and loving as you. And this will probably be one of the hardest things you'll have to do. But Sage, you're going to have to do it to survive.
H may very well be your twin flame. He may very well come back but that requires the breathing room to do so. To do that that means no more playing house because H feels like it even when Sage doesn't want to, or isn't sure. That means not trying to skip several steps like May said and accepting where you are right now with H. Rushing to an imaginary finish line of happy, healthy co-parents who may find it in their hearts to get back together will do you no good. You aren't in a place to move forward to that, even if you miss and love H. And H isn't either. You guys need time to heal yourself. Find yourselves. Learn, grow, forgive and move on whether that's with or without each other.
I'm still grieving the loss of MR 1.0. I'm still grieving the loss of who I though my H was. But I was perfectly willing to let him go live the life he wanted. Even if I wasn't in it. Because heart broken me alone was better than confused and frustrated me living in the same house as him. Don't confuse your grief and desire to get some control over this situation.
Indifference doesn't mean it's over any more than physical separation means its over. It was over a long, long time ago. You know this. Don't rush or force a restart. He's not in a place to love you the way you deserve. And you are not in a place where you love you more than you love him. Both of those things need to be in place for a restart. The person of value trope thrown around here isn't about making yourself a person of value to your WAS, it's accepting and loving yourself as a person of value and knowing you are worthy of love. And not just any old version of love, but to be loved wholly and deeply for exactly who you are. You can be a lighthouse while protecting yourself. You have to protect yourself to be a lighthouse or the storm will take you too. Love you more than you love him if you can't stomach indifference.
There is something there for me with the children, as in how in the world could a smart, intuitive person like me chosen someone capable of this level of lowness as the father of my children?
I have sat with this question too, for a long long time. Still thinking about it. But... you shouldn't apologize for loving someone. It isn't your fault that he did what he did, or is still doing. It isn't your fault that you weren't able to see into the future and know that this person would be capable of doing this and that you should avoid having children with him. You didn't know. He didn't know, probably, either, that he'd be capable of doing this and if he's anything like my H, a whole lot of his mental energy is going into justifying his behavior to make his actions acceptable. That is all 100% ON HIM. It is not on you. I know this is easier said than done, but try your best to let this one go. it isn't your fault.
Originally Posted by Sage4
Maybe I can be detached but I haven't come to acceptance? I definitely feel like I have had moments of acceptance in the past couple of months, but maybe I am just swinging back in the non-linear grief process?
I agree with DnJ-- this is a very non-linear process. Unchien said to me once maybe a year ago on detachment that the way it works is that you think you're detached, and then you realize you're not yet detached and still have a long ways to go. That keeps happening until one day you actually get there. This has happened to me over and over during this process-- I feel like my pockets are full of pebbles, and I reach in and grab one out and drop it on the ground and then feel free and clear and detached, for a bit. I forget that there were more pebbles in my pocket. Then my pocket starts to feel heavy and I reach in and yep, there are handfuls to go. All you can do is keep taking them out, one at a time, and dropping them on the beach.
Originally Posted by Sage4
So maybe some of my actions come from a place of damage mitigation? That if I stay calm, remain loyal and steady, be the lighthouse, he has less walls to bang against, at least where I am concerned.
As Wayfarer says... unless you really shore up your own foundations first, you can't be the lighthouse or the storm will blow you away too.
I would actually think about this in a different way-- by putting yourself in his presence over and over, you are providing him with a nice big target wall to bang against and blame. Whenever you are there, he can avoid looking inside because he can blame everything on you. Remove yourself and let him work this out on his own. (Didn't you say the same to me not so long ago-- that by interfering with my H's ability to process his own emotions with my own silence or anger, I'm preventing him from doing the internal work he needs to do? I feel like this could be applied to you as well?)
I honestly think every time this happens, every time he is an unnecessary @sshole to you, it increases his own emotional distance from you. If he is anything like my H (and I do think our sitches have a lot of similarities) every time he does this, he knows it and it makes him feel more guilty and bad for being mean to you. That makes him distance himself even more from you because he feels horrible about it, and also drives him to the justification train where the only reason he's doing this is because you're so terrible to be around. My H has told me this was a big part of his monstering behavior and mindset back when he monstered. So don't give him the opportunity to do this. Remove yourself from the equation and give him the space he needs to do his own work.
Originally Posted by Sage4
I think May you are right in that I fear indifference. I am worried that once I reach indifference, I will leave this relationship behind forever. That indifference will close the door forever. And maybe I am not ready for that.
Oh Sage, I know EXACTLY how you feel. I felt the exact same way about my H leaving--- that would be it, I'd shut that emotional door and be done forever. And there is something very very sad about that idea. But you don't know that to be the truth, that indifference will lead you to leave this R behind forever. Or, if you do shrug off the ties weighing you down to your H right now, why can't your future look like running through those Sound of Music flower fields? That freedom from caring about your H will allow you to pilot your own ship without being dragged around by his insecurities and bad decisions? And maybe your own handsome philanthropist is right around the corner for you, too.
I know you spent some time envisioning your life in the future with a repaired R with your H. Have you done the same without him in it? If not, what is stopping you? (This really helped me, FWIW)
I'll leave you with one last thought. Your M1.0 and the twin flames you had with your H is gone. It is awful and sad and you deserve to grieve about the loss of that love for as long as you need to. But I do think you need to fully grieve that chapter in your R with your H before you can turn the page and see what's next. Honor it-- maybe some ritual will help you do this fully-- and then turn the page.
I'm excited to see what is on the next page for you. I think the next chapter should be Sage's chapter, where you can sand down the broken coupling on your trailer and fix the engine and steering mechanisms so that you can drive it yourself. Let your H work on his own stuff for awhile without you to bang up against.
Maybe a future chapter holds perfect loving co-parents. Maybe it is M2.0. But you can't skip ahead... this is one book you have to read and experience every word or you'll be stuck.
xx M
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I have to be honest I’m not caught up but I think you may be back in denial. Last I remember you didn’t want to do kid’s birthdays together and now I see you had Thanksgiving together. Then he asks some questions about your whereabouts and I think that got your hopes up. I admire your position to stand but to do so you have to understand there will be a lot of suffering. I don’t remember if divorce is in the process or not but until it’s off the table then I suggest you keep moving forward.
LH, you found me! Thanks for popping over to this side of the forum and sharing your clear vision. Yes, I struggled with the birthday, allowed him to come in the end due my child's begging and things were OK for awhile so Thanksgiving was on offer. I felt very detached, happy in myself and my future the past month, which of course attracted H's attention. I wasn't phased by the attention until I let my expectations get the better of me. Which is why I am now back in the suffering. It's all on me. I see that. And no, I do not want to suffer for 9 years, or even for one more month if I am really honest with myself.
Originally Posted by DnJ
True, indifference does quiet our feelings towards our spouse. We feel numb towards them. This is a healthy and needed place to be in. One really can hear themselves when all the emotional noise regarding their spouse is muted.
Thanks DnJ. Your posts have been so helpful to me and so eloquent. But this line above is my lesson in a nutshell. I get it. I want indifference. I see the value; I am not afraid of it anymore.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
This isn't going to be easy for you. This is one of those counterintuitive things we are barked at about over and over again when we got here. Loving someone but giving them the space to make their own mistakes and find their own way is counterintuitive to someone as warm and loving as you. And this will probably be one of the hardest things you'll have to do. But Sage, you're going to have to do it to survive.
Hi darling WF. I get this, I really do. I have no false illusions that he is going to be capable of doing any self work when I am around and in the picture. And honestly, I am not capable of doing the work I need to do on myself with him in the picture. I am grateful that he is out of my house and I am absolutely comfortable giving him the space he needs. No matter the outcome.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
H may very well be your twin flame. He may very well come back but that requires the breathing room to do so. To do that that means no more playing house because H feels like it even when Sage doesn't want to, or isn't sure. That means not trying to skip several steps like May said and accepting where you are right now with H. Rushing to an imaginary finish line of happy, healthy co-parents who may find it in their hearts to get back together will do you no good. You aren't in a place to move forward to that, even if you miss and love H. And H isn't either. You guys need time to heal yourself. Find yourselves. Learn, grow, forgive and move on whether that's with or without each other.
I agree completely. And I totally get this too. After reading your post, here is where I think I am stuck: we are in a cycle of operant conditioning, Skinner's Box where rats are rewarded with food or punished with an electric shock and learn what works and what doesn't. So when I am kind, open, willing, evolved and inclusive, H mirrors those 'positive' qualities most of the time. When I do the inverse, H mirrors the 'negative' qualities and doubles down on the negative intensity. So like a little lab rat, I have learned how I need to behave to gain the greatest reward. And because it is in my nature to be positive, open, willing, inclusive it is easier for me to behave this way, it feels more authentic to me.
So getting to a place of 'dim' or saying no to Christmas morning together goes against both my primal nature and the operant conditioning of my situation. So where do I go from here?
Originally Posted by may22
I would actually think about this in a different way-- by putting yourself in his presence over and over, you are providing him with a nice big target wall to bang against and blame. Whenever you are there, he can avoid looking inside because he can blame everything on you. Remove yourself and let him work this out on his own. (Didn't you say the same to me not so long ago-- that by interfering with my H's ability to process his own emotions with my own silence or anger, I'm preventing him from doing the internal work he needs to do? I feel like this could be applied to you as well?)
I honestly think every time this happens, every time he is an unnecessary @sshole to you, it increases his own emotional distance from you. If he is anything like my H (and I do think our sitches have a lot of similarities) every time he does this, he knows it and it makes him feel more guilty and bad for being mean to you. That makes him distance himself even more from you because he feels horrible about it, and also drives him to the justification train where the only reason he's doing this is because you're so terrible to be around. My H has told me this was a big part of his monstering behavior and mindset back when he monstered. So don't give him the opportunity to do this. Remove yourself from the equation and give him the space he needs to do his own work.
Yes, yes, yes. Getting my own advice back is golden, thanks sweet May!
I recognize that *I* need more space, to allow myself to detach more, keep dropping those pebbles on the beach at my own pace. But back to the operant conditioning: when I back off, he mirrors that only in an amplified, hurt, insecure, lashing-out-monster way. And I don't know if I have mentioned this in any of my early posts, but in our M, H felt rejected by me (SSM) and that I could be cold and aloof with him at times. So him perceiving me as 'distant' is really triggering for him. Me going dark puts him in a panic and does not facilitate growth in him (and even if he doesn't heal for our M, I am still invested in his psycho-emotional growth as he has an impact on my children).
So I guess here is my burning question: until I reach indifference, how do I authentically (true to me, true to him) navigate our interactions that do the least amount of harm (to me, to the R)?
Thank you guys for being my sounding board. I don't know what I would do without your wise perspectives right now.
After reading your post, here is where I think I am stuck: we are in a cycle of operant conditioning, Skinner's Box where rats are rewarded with food or punished with an electric shock and learn what works and what doesn't. So when I am kind, open, willing, evolved and inclusive, H mirrors those 'positive' qualities most of the time. When I do the inverse, H mirrors the 'negative' qualities and doubles down on the negative intensity. So like a little lab rat, I have learned how I need to behave to gain the greatest reward. And because it is in my nature to be positive, open, willing, inclusive it is easier for me to behave this way, it feels more authentic to me.
So getting to a place of 'dim' or saying no to Christmas morning together goes against both my primal nature and the operant conditioning of my situation. So where do I go from here?
Yes!! Let's work with this.
Your H has been reinforced for his d!ckish behavior also, like a little lab rat. I'm not sure of the exact mechanism in your situation-- it could either be that you capitulate and give in to him, or you get angry and snap and reinforce his belief that you're the bad guy. Either way, he is getting something out of this behavior and the interaction with you, otherwise HE WOULDN'T DO IT. It could just be a sick satisfaction that he still has the power to make you respond emotionally to him, whether positively or negatively.
What you're experiencing when you stop reinforcing the behavior you are trying to extinguish-- when he acts like a jerk and you ignore it, walk away, don't respond-- and remember, getting angry is a response-- what he is going to do at first is increase the intensity of the response-- an extinction burst. Like the rat trained to press the paddle for a reward, when the kibble stops spitting out of the chute after pressing the paddle, the rat doesn't give up right away. It starts pressing it harder and more frequently... why isn't this dang paddle working??? Until finally the rat gives up on the paddle and starts sniffing around to see if there is something else it can do to earn a treat.
And as you probably well know, intermittent, random schedules of reinforcement produce behavior that is the most difficult to extinguish... and unless you've responded the exact same way every time he does XYZ, he's on a variable schedule. The last, most intense explosions of his previously reinforced behavior will be the extinction burst and it will make you feel crazy... but it means it is almost at an end.
So. When you ignore his cr@p, and he responds with more intense negativity... STAY THE COURSE. If not, you're only teaching him that he has to get nastier in order to get a response from you.
Originally Posted by Sage4
But back to the operant conditioning: when I back off, he mirrors that only in an amplified, hurt, insecure, lashing-out-monster way. And I don't know if I have mentioned this in any of my early posts, but in our M, H felt rejected by me (SSM) and that I could be cold and aloof with him at times. So him perceiving me as 'distant' is really triggering for him. Me going dark puts him in a panic and does not facilitate growth in him (and even if he doesn't heal for our M, I am still invested in his psycho-emotional growth as he has an impact on my children).
He may be triggered by your coolness, but you know in your heart you aren't being cruel or cold. You simply aren't acting like his wife anymore, because he has separated from you.
I definitely think this is something that is going to get worse before it gets better, and like everything else, there is only one way through it. This goes for both of you. You need to break yourself of these unhealthy interactions too. And he will only learn when there are actual consequences to his behavior. Otherwise, you are stuck in this cycle forever.
Again, from a pure behavioral standpoint, if we wanted to pretend like he's a lab rat and you're the trainer, beyond simply not reinforcing the behaviors you don't want to see and reinforcing those you do-- and this could be as simple as smiling when he's being nice and withdrawing and not responding to a rude remark, simply taking a beat and then going on as if he never said anything, or as dramatic as walking out of the house and driving away, or hanging up the phone, when he's being a jerk-- the other thing you might consider is not putting him in a situation where he can screw up. For example, if you want your rat to stop pressing that paddle, you could remove the paddle from its environment for awhile (maybe taking a break from seeing each other or talking on the phone). You can reinforce an incompatible behavior-- do you notice he is usually better when the kids are around, for instance? Don't be alone with him, and reinforce his positive interactions when you're with the kids.
You also want to be very sure that what you perceive to be positive reinforcement for him, though, really is. After BD it seems to me that a lot of this gets turned on its head. Whereas you being kind to your H used to be reinforcing, it may actually be negative because it triggers guilt in him. So I'd be very careful here (and again... I can't emphasize enough that taking a break from trying to be best friends is probably your best bet, for both of you.)
OK. I totally went down a rabbit hole here, and am tempted to delete half of this but will leave it just in case it is helpful. If not, ignore it. My main point was that you're going to get an extinction burst when you stop reinforcing his behavior.
Also. It is OKAY to not worry about his mental state for awhile. As long as he isn't a danger to himself or the kids, forget him and his issues. You don't need to solve his problems for him, remember? Your job is to heal you and your children. Putting it like "facilitating his growth" is-- sorry-- just making excuses for still trying to fix him.
(((sage)))
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Thanks so much May, I am happy you didn't delete any of your thoughts, I needed all those words to truly understand.
The net net bottom lesson of all of this is that I am damned if I do and damned if I don't. Niceness enhances his guilt and shame; distance triggers childhood and M trauma. I can't win. Ugh, this is all so much work. If I didn't have these darling children, I would be running as fast as I could in the opposite direction as H.
I think it is clear that I need more space. That I am getting too wrapped up in his feelings, his responses and in essence enabling his leaving by allowing us to play good friends and happy family on his terms. I just need to remind myself of Thanksgiving-- totally on his terms and at the detriment to my own needs-- hold me to this one when I wobble, OK?
The best I have felt in the past year of my situation was during this past month of detachment. It was also the first time that H started to wobble a little. And I believe his wobble mattered more to him than me at the time... he was the one who was really uncomfortable with the wobble, and my internal response was 'oh, he's wobbling, interesting.'
But then the Covid exposure really did a number on me. I allowed H to gain a foothold of power over me and my detachment in my moment of vulnerability. I watched my other exposed friends snuggle in close with their partners and children; meanwhile I was imagining dying alone and it made me feel really, really down.
And during all of this I am justifying my every (quarantined) move to him a la Spanish Inquisitions. (I have put an end to that, BTW, I have said everything I need to say about my fidelity and that I won't discuss it again until circumstances change and I will hold firm to this by walking away, hanging up or just ignoring his craziness).
My lesson is to move back towards detachment and aim for indifference. I am so sick of this.
I watched my other exposed friends snuggle in close with their partners and children; meanwhile I was imagining dying alone and it made me feel really, really down.
This is what all the craziness is about Sage. You can write all the post you want about you being twin flames but it comes down to this one thought. You brain rationalizes everything else because it is trying to protect you. Your brain is hardwired against rejection. 10,000 years ago if you were rejected from the tribe you would surely perish. Our brains do not evolve fast enough. In time your brain will understand you are safe and surely you won't die alone.
With time and space you will understand that it's not about your husband at all. It's about the loss of control and stability in your life.
The net net bottom lesson of all of this is that I am damned if I do and damned if I don't. Niceness enhances his guilt and shame; distance triggers childhood and M trauma. I can't win.
You can win, Sage. YOU win. You focus on your own healing and prioritizing that and your children. You WILL win in this. He may be left behind as you heal and grow and become from this whole traumatic experience. That is on him. You are responsible for yourself and you have all the tools to move out of this space happier and healthier and grateful for the growth opportunity.
You're right in that you can't win with him. It is a rigged game. Don't play it anymore.
Originally Posted by Sage4
I think it is clear that I need more space. That I am getting too wrapped up in his feelings, his responses and in essence enabling his leaving by allowing us to play good friends and happy family on his terms. I just need to remind myself of Thanksgiving-- totally on his terms and at the detriment to my own needs-- hold me to this one when I wobble, OK?
okay!!!
Originally Posted by Sage4
But then the Covid exposure really did a number on me. I allowed H to gain a foothold of power over me and my detachment in my moment of vulnerability. I watched my other exposed friends snuggle in close with their partners and children; meanwhile I was imagining dying alone and it made me feel really, really down.
That's okay. Totally natural. We are in a global pandemic, FFS!! I still look around at everyone in masks when I venture out and have this totally surreal feeling, that we're living in a dystopian novel.
I bet you can get that level of detachment back much more quickly than it took you to get there the first time. Dust yourself off, go through the same processes you did before, and you'll be back in that blissful place in no time.
Originally Posted by Sage4
And during all of this I am justifying my every (quarantined) move to him a la Spanish Inquisitions. (I have put an end to that, BTW, I have said everything I need to say about my fidelity and that I won't discuss it again until circumstances change and I will hold firm to this by walking away, hanging up or just ignoring his craziness).
GOOD. Do it.
Originally Posted by Sage4
My lesson is to move back towards detachment and aim for indifference. I am so sick of this.
For me, every time i have gone through mini versions of this process, it surprises me all over again when I realize duh, I'm not detached right now. I'm trying to control things that cannot be controlled, and I'm letting those thing which are outside of my control affect my emotions and balance. And then I just go back to the basics. First, self-care-- the easiest steps, like a warm bath or a favorite show or ordering in. Then level two-- exercise, yoga, connecting with friends. Then some observing of my own behaviors and H's and my responses and starting to purposefully relax my brain, detach my emotions, tell myself to let go. (I still love that dang "you only control what you play" video!! I don't know why it speaks to me so much!!) Whatever your path is to detachment, go back to the beginning and walk the road again. It will be easier this time, and I bet you'll get farther along.
xx M
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
We do teach people how to treat us. However, this is a crisis individual we are interacting with, the usual cause and effect of normal social interactions seldom apply or have consistent results. Do not expect rational behavioural outcomes from an emotionally troubled person. You only can control you!
Your influences upon H may be positive or negative, that really depends upon his interpretation at the time. And we all know how dynamic a MLCer can be.
The real teaching that you are doing - is to yourself. You are teaching you what behaviours you will accept and how to navigate behaviours you don’t accept. Remember, leave H to his path. You do not want the responsibility that comes from manipulating his journey.
Originally Posted by Sage4
So I guess here is my burning question: until I reach indifference, how do I authentically (true to me, true to him) navigate our interactions that do the least amount of harm (to me, to the R)?
Let me re-quote that.
Quote
So I guess here is my burning question: until I reach indifference, how do I authentically (true to me true to him) navigate our interactions that do the least amount of harm (to me, to the R)?
Give space and time.
Focus on you. Live your life.
Follow the counterintuitive advice.
Act as if. Behave indifferently until it becomes fact.
The great thing about indifference is our emotions are lessened. Most poor choices or decisions are based upon emotions. With indifference we utilize more intellectual reasoning than emotional reasoning; that usually leads to better results.
Originally Posted by Sage4
So getting to a place of 'dim' or saying no to Christmas morning together goes against both my primal nature and the operant conditioning of my situation. So where do I go from here?
You realize the operant condoning of your situation and want to change it. Excellent.
This ties in with believe, values, and convictions. Indeed your primal nature, your beliefs, are core to you - and are slow to change. It that slow changing nature that makes these tenets such good heading to follow. Emotions can change, and do change, quickly. Following those is the bane of our crisis spouses; don’t want to go down that kind of a road.
So where do I go from here?
Get in your intellectual car, and consider, think, about your values, your beliefs, your nature. Reflect upon them. Strengthen those that you like, are honourable, serve you, and feed your soul. Alter or discard those beliefs that run counter to the view you want.
Look to others you admire, respect, and would like to emulate. Consider their beliefs and how those deep values have shaped them and lead them to their life. Consider if that is a role model you would like to follow.
Take your time with this process, this is some deep soul digging. It takes consistent effort to alter those deep held values within you. Now, I suspect most of your values will be strengthened, few will require altering, and very few will require discarding. However, the codependent beliefs are ones that do need to get tossed out.
This is along those lines of we teach ourselves how to teach others how to treat us.
The mechanics for crafting, altering, and strengthening a belief:
There are four “cars” or paths or facets of your life - physical, intellectual, emotional, spiritual. Of those, one can only directly control physical and intellectual. We can only influence emotional and spiritual, not directly control them.
All four paths influence each other. Our emotions can cause certain thoughts; when we get angry our thoughts turn to anger vindictive ideas. Our physical actions also cause certain feelings and thoughts and beliefs. Consider when we smile, a feeling of happiness comes from seemingly nowhere.
Do it. Smile right now. See how you suddenly feel better?
Now frown. A deep solid frown. Big bottom lip. Good. You probably also, without thought, dragged your eyebrows down and even growled a bit. And of course your feelings followed along.
Smile again. It feels better.
Feelings change quickly. And are easily influenced. I just had you run from happy to mad to happy within seconds.
Feelings are fleeting. They are real and temporary, unless they are reinforced.
The physical car: One can purposefully perform physical actions that promote good emotions and beliefs. For example, living a peaceful life. Close the cupboard door gently - every single time. Just enough force to have it close silently and almost elegantly. That single little action, such a minor behaviour, accumulates, spreads to other parts of your life, and has a huge impact.
The intellectual car: Intellect is where you will produce the most gains. This is the wheelhouse of influence. Even your physical behaviours start here. This is the stronghold of mental assertiveness and rational thought. Thoughts influence everything.
We can directly control our intellectual self. This control produces thoughts and actions which influence our emotions and beliefs. This is the kernel of wisdom that allows one to strengthen, alter, or discard their beliefs.
The emotional car: Emotions are born with our subconscious. They are irrational by nature. Emotions are easily influenced, and often without the realization of the influencing. Feelings and emotions are a large part of what makes up a healthy person. We are rational / irrational creatures. It is needed to spend some time within this car and examine our emotions. However, it is good practice to influence when we do this, for how long, and for which events.
With practice it gets to a point where it “feels” like one can actually control their emotions. This control is actually true, the mechanism is not direct though; it is influence, and the accepting of that influence.
The spiritual car: Spirit, faith, belief, convictions, values - our core self. This is our deepest self. This binds everything else. Our spiritual path is influenced by everything we do, think, and feel; and influences everything we do, think, and feel.
Getting a handle on one’s beliefs and values is a enlightening view. It is quite incredible to actually meet yourself for the first time. It takes a very traumatic experience to knock one out of their routine enough for them to examine who they are deep down.
An LBS has an incredible opportunity seldom afforded to others. And for those who avail themselves to this opportunity, do the inner work and craft themselves - They Become.
Do make the most of it. The benefits are so worth it. One does look back upon this time, these efforts, and the changes they make, as the blessings they are.
Currently your beliefs, emotions, thoughts, and behaviours are not in sync. Imagine when they are. Imagine when your four cars are travelling together side by side and not spread out along the path. Imagine what that will be like.
I spoke of mental assertiveness. This is intellect. This is us exercising our control. Mental assertiveness is sword and shield.
Keep you sword sharp and use it to cut through the projections, blame, and justifications. Cleave yourself from H and his path. Your sharp sword is your mightiest weapon and tool in your arsenal. Use it with compassion. Use it for detachment and to find indifference.
Keep your shield bright and polished. This is your mental defence against the onslaught of H and from within. Your shield is strong and broad. It protects you from H’s rewritten narrative and your self-doubts and fears.
Mental assertiveness is your most powerful force at your direct control; and must be wielded with compassion. That caution is, like everything else, for you.
An example of the actual mechanics for strengthening and altering a belief.
Stop speak and thinking of H as a d!ckhead, and having d!ckish behaviour. Do not speak of H disparagingly anymore. This is not about H being deserving or not of those thought - it’s about you.
Remember, craft and strengthen that which serves and feed your soul.
Disparaging thoughts and comments seem like they detach one. This is short lived. Those thoughts influence feelings. Disparaging turn to resentment. Resentment is attachment. One is firmly attached to that which they resent.
You want your detachment to live within your spiritual realm, to be part of that which you believe and influences everything within your life. To detach, one needs compassion.
Remember - counterintuitive.
Compassion, understanding, empathy, all leads towards forgiveness. Forgiveness is freeing.
When one is free from resentment, vengeance, retribution, grudges, judgemental thoughts, and so on, they are detached.
This is very counterintuitive and people usually strengthen beliefs that influence those traits of resentment, judgement, retribution, and so on. Forgiveness is something that seldom is ever found.
Looking within one’s self and seeing those beliefs, and then doing something proactive to alter them, is such a good thing. A good for you thing!
Sage, I empathize for where you find yourself. The internal bargaining and attempting to hold on. (((Sage))) Believe me. Really - believe. It’s ok to let go. It’s ok.
Believe - compassion and kindness. Detachment and indifference. Compassionate indifference.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Oh sweet Sage, everything prior to this post is absolutely gold. Please read and re-read over and over when you're feeling weak.
Once again. Dealing with an unstable person who demands far more of you than they demand of themselves or are willing to give of themselves is something I was raised with. Honestly I think IronWill is kinda in the same boat but I don't have the added PTSD to CPTSD due to the trauma vets endure. But the stoicism becomes easy once we can recall all of those skills we used to navigate childhood. But for some one like you are coming into this quite blind.
The person you are dealing does deserve kindness and love as they are a human being, but they don't deserve it at the detriment of your own psyche. As DNJ said the responses you receive are entirely dependent on how that response is perceived by H and not by how you actually behaved or reacted in any objective sense. Like May said this is game you can't win. You will not nice him into reasonability or cordiality. Not even nice him back. You will not nice him into a decent co-parent or person. You need to tell yourself that over and over again. You can love him they way you love a stranger. As a fellow person on this earth. You can give him decency and respect, but he doesn't love you the way a H should so please don't give him the love and kindness you would give and H. He won't accept it unless he needs it. It's a waste of time and energy on your part to be in a non-reciprocal relationship. Your kindness and love can't be attached to the expectation that he will return any of it like a rational and reasonable person would. He is not a rational reasonable person.
Also you won't boundary and anger him into a decent person either. He will do as he pleases. He will do as he feels. He will tread on you over and over. What people don't talk enough about in the newbie section, maybe because it's too nuanced, is that boundaries are for you to draw the line in sand of what will be tolerated and what won't be specifically for you. Not as a way to teach someone how to treat you or what you are willing to tolerate. Someone in a crisis mind set like H is in right now, WILL NOT RESPECT THOSE BOUNDARIES. He will push them over and over and over again, because he wants you to be as uncomfortable and miserable as he is. The boundaries you put in place are to remind you where that line is not him, because frankly he doesn't care. But because he will constantly push you those boundaries sometimes becomes squishy just to make things easier for you in the short term. And if you let up on how firm that boundary is he will push the line further and further until you are in crisis with him. He is not a rational reasonable person.
The steps we take are to protect our hearts and our minds from these people in crisis we love so much. I know you love your husband. I know you wish desperately that you could have your family in one piece. I know you wish things were like they used to be. I know you wish you could fast forward through H's crisis. I know you wish you had a crystal ball. We've all been there, but now is the time for you to sit with where things are at in your life, and accept exactly what things are in this moment. No expectations of what you wish them to be. You are fierce and strong. You are intelligent and oh so caring. You will neither fail at single parenthood nor die alone. You will survive this. You will learn to navigate H's craziness in a way that keeps you safe and stable. You just need to trust in yourself and the process here.
Please read the above over and over and over. You need to take care of Sage first and foremost in all aspects. Frankly if you don't who will?
Hi everyone, it's been a while since I have posted, but I have been reading along with all of your situations and sending holiday hugs to you all.
The past couple of weeks have been up and down. The holidays have triggered some sadness in me, thinking about years' past. Some of the best, most joyful and loving moments in my M have occurred this time of year. My mind is still struggling to compartmentalize those old memories with my new reality. Hard work to retrain our brains, isn't it?
My good moments have been fueled by an inner awareness that no matter what, I am going to be OK. That there is so much outside of all of this that I have ahead of me. If I focus on the long-game I am OK. If I start to pay too much attention to the path that I need to navigate to get there, I want to crumble with the magnitude of it all.
I taught my kiddos how to ice skate this past week. Our first reaction is to look down at our feet, but where our eyes go, our body follows. So I kept encouraging them to "look up, look where you want to go!". Repeating that over and over again was a meditation for me.
My interactions with H have been tough. I feel detached, calm and grounded during our interactions, but nearly every interaction results in a deserved apology from him to me the next day. I don't think that's healthy for either one of us. I appreciate his apologies but would prefer that he doesn't get to that point in the first place. I am also starting to feel like a whipping post for all of his guilt and shame. Guilt and shame generated from within him, for what he has done and what he is doing... none of which is within my control, but yet I am the one he punishes for him feeling those things.
My IC has helped me immensely these past couple of weeks identify that I am really good at predicting where the (moving) target will be and shooting a bullseye every time. H is really good at moving the target and keeping me focussed on the archery game. I need to bow out of the game. Stop looking for the targets to ace. Shrug. Put down the bow. Walk away. (Detach. Indifference.)
We have had nearly a week apart as he went somewhere and I took the kids away for a local trip to the mountains with my mom. It has been a lovely time for me and the kids. And really nice to not have to interact with H at all for 6 days.
I am really dreading the upcoming interactions necessary to navigate a two-week break from school and the holidays. I realize I don't have good enough boundaries for myself ('haha, obviously!' you are all saying to yourselves). I am working on changing that.
I also have been doing some goal-writing about things I want to do with the children next year (post-pandemic), or things I want to integrate into our new life. It helps to remind me that I am alive and creative and very adventurous, things that H can't take away from me or the children, although he used to be a big part in encouraging it.
I have more to journal but will stop there before this gets too onerous to read!
I noticed in this post and others of yours that you say a lot about how poorly you are doing when it is clear that you are doing very well, are an amazing mom and are handling a disgusting situation with as much grace as you possibly can. And on this post you write this very interesting and insightful and very not-whiny post and then sort of pre-apologize for it being too onerous to read!
And it seems this is the same thing you are doing with your H. How do I know? I WAS YOU.
You are living in a totally impossible horrific situation with a person who ripped out your heart, stomped on it while forcing you to watch and then began demanding that you make him feel better for having had to rip and stomp and make you watch. He undermined everything your love and marriage and family and business stood for, and demanded that you understand why he must do that. And then you are wondering why you sometimes feel a bad feeling or have trouble focusing. And in between you take your four beautiful children ice skating and call across the ice to your darlings, "Look up! Look at where you want to go!" and that is a glorious light-filled moment they will never ever forget, it will feed their souls -- and then you wonder why you would dread having to be around a man who makes you feel rejected and who makes you question your whole life together and your worth as a woman and a mother and a business partner, you berate yourself for not being detached enough to not enjoy negotiating the practicalities of how to best parent while someone rips your family apart, And in the background lurks an evil husband snatcher who thinks she has a right to destroy five lives for her "happiness." And then you apologize for writing something onerous!
I am being a little hyperbolic here, but I noticed this theme of this amazing woman feeling that she had to apologize, so I want to highlight it so you can see it.
I try not to get involved with anyone new to these boards because it's so painful to watch others start this process, but sometimes someone comes along and just is so lovely and so likeable and such a beautiful spirit that I do start following along. And you, Sage, are one such beautiful spirit.
So stop apologizing. Keep looking up at where you want to go, but take a moment to lie on the floor and cry in a ball and I will rub your shoulder and cry too and say, yes, yes, yes, I know, it hurts, and it's so wrong and not what we signed up for and it will refine us into gold but it hurts like h$ll. You have to feel worthy of that pain too, of knowing that someone hurt you and it was wrong, before you can move on to detaching from it. Otherwise you'll think that you should do better at not feeling things and the temptation is to minimize the things as if anyone should be able to get over them lickety split instead of moving towards accepting the very painful and very wrong things. Worse yet, you'll apologize to H that he had to go through the pain of destroying you -- not directly, but by this simmering feeling you have, and which I recognize quite well. Hope it won't take you seven years to realize that like it did me!
I think divorce is wrong and should be avoided at all costs, and I believe in marriage and even believe that your H doesn't really want to divorce and maybe would come back one day when his blinders are off, but I also know from hard experience that you have to let them go and do that, and that you never have to validate what they are doing. What they are doing is dead wrong and horrible and destroys lives. You will be okay, that is true! You will do amazing things and help your children heal, whether or not H ever returns. But I just don't want you to fall into that trap of thinking you have to validate anything. Acceptance is different from validating. One may have to accept the amputation of a limb to avoid gangrene. But that doesn't mean we should start thinking it's a great thing to amputate a limb or that it's not going to hurt like a B for a long long time and make everything we planned for our lives change. We can one day strut down the runway like Victoria Modesta and know that it all happens for a reason but that doesn't mean that amputation is by its nature an easy thing to do or get over.
Last edited by Gerda; 12/20/2002:59 AM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Hi Sage. I don't have a lot to add but only to encourage you in your journey and second the beautiful advice given you. You are not alone.
I'm 3 years post DDay and I was tossed and turned by the emotions of my X for a long time. I think you are strong and amazing and it sounds like you know what you need to do now. Detach.
Detaching takes time and practice. It will help you see your loved one in crisis for what they are while giving you the courage and strength necessary to have boundaries. It's also a loving thing we can do, although it doesn't always feel that way.
All my best to you. Hugs.
ME47 XH44, S28 S24 S19
8/17-BD IHS: 1/17-2/19 D FILED (ME): 7/19 D FINAL: 10/20 M23 T25 OW CONFIRMED: 01/21
Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
Wow, Gerda, I feel so seen. Thank you, darling you, for spending so much time giving me exactly what I needed to hear tonight.
Originally Posted by Gerda
You are living in a totally impossible horrific situation with a person who ripped out your heart, stomped on it while forcing you to watch and then began demanding that you make him feel better for having had to rip and stomp and make you watch. He undermined everything your love and marriage and family and business stood for, and demanded that you understand why he must do that.
This.
This is probably the most validating, accurate thing I have read about my situation, ever. It is like you stepped into my head and gave language to what my muzzled soul was trying to scream at me. You succinctly shared in two sentences what I have been trying to articulate for the past year. Thank you SO much for this nugget of gold. THIS is the foundation of all my boundaries moving forward. Because it is so true. And so, so cruel, when I see it written out like this.
And then you go on to make me feel like a great mom when I needed it! (FOR THE RECORD: I shouted at bedtime tonight, multiple times. I let them play some stupid Christmas game on my computer instead of reading them a bedtime book. I let them graze on cookies for lunch because I couldn't be bothered to cook, or clean up if they cooked. I took a bath instead. I ignored, then shooed my daughter away a few times when I wanted to write my update post. We didn't get outside for exercise at all today; instead I let them have too much screen time. BUT! I finally joined the elf on the shelf game and woke up to squeals of delight this morning-- he was in the Christmas tree and HOW IN THE WORLD did he ever get up there??? They got their screens taken away for fighting with each other and afterwards I found them all knitting(!) in the lounge. They played imaginary vet with some 'patients' from our abundant household menagerie. And they spent hours making some amazing earrings and ornament gifts with polymer clay.) I think I can settle on I am an 'OK mom, with well-adjusted kids'?
Originally Posted by Gerda
-- and then you wonder why you would dread having to be around a man who makes you feel rejected and who makes you question your whole life together and your worth as a woman and a mother and a business partner, you berate yourself for not being detached enough to not enjoy negotiating the practicalities of how to best parent while someone rips your family apart
Sob.
More of my boundaries are being articulated through your clarity here, sweet friend.
I started writing down my needs and what boundaries would protect those needs. I got stuck. I secretly asked the universe for some help navigating this process, it feels vital but I wasn't sure where to start. And you were sent to me!
Originally Posted by Gerda
I try not to get involved with anyone new to these boards because it's so painful to watch others start this process, but sometimes someone comes along and just is so lovely and so likeable and such a beautiful spirit that I do start following along. And you, Sage, are one such beautiful spirit.
(((((Gerda))))))
Originally Posted by Gerda
But I just don't want you to fall into that trap of thinking you have to validate anything. Acceptance is different from validating. One may have to accept the amputation of a limb to avoid gangrene. But that doesn't mean we should start thinking it's a great thing to amputate a limb or that it's not going to hurt like a B for a long long time and make everything we planned for our lives change.
I could have quoted everything you have written, Gerda. It all resonates so much with me in this moment. But the pieces that pertain to my boundaries and the permission to not validate behavior that hurts me or my children are exactly what I have been stewing on for the past few days. Thank you so much, from the bottom of my heart, for your post.
Hope! I responded on your thread, thank you for stopping by. I look forward to learning from you.
But I'd like to add on. You are not just an ok mom because you decided you needed a mental health day from momming. Honey if you let screens baby sit those kids for 2 days while they ate only snacks they could reach or make themselves, or h3ll, threw lunchables at them so be it. It doesn't make you less than when you're not super mom. No mother, no woman can be the ideal version of themselves to all people all of the time and that's a target you also need to walk away from.
You are doing your best to cope right now with your MR crumbling, with having to figure out who you are now and who you'll be on the other side of this. Of an uncertain future. A pandemic. Raising kids as a single mom. None of this is easy alone, much less piled on each other. The fact that you aren't spending 23 hours our of a 24 hour day crumpled up in sobbing ball on the floor with a bottle of wine in one hand and a fist full of kleenex in the other is in and of itself you being a supermom.
I'm going to tell you one really big secret of being a single mom. Single moms DGAF about having perfectly feed, beautifully dressed, angelic, well groomed and behaved children. We care about having kind, self-reliant, good kids who know they are supported and loved. My daughter grew up with waaaayyy too much screen time. She often ate fruit snacks and had juice boxes. She had McDonald's happy meals. Some times I let her stay up as late as she wanted. Or let her sleep in as long as she wanted even though I knew it was going to throw off her schedule. I locked myself in the bathroom to cry. I ignored her and felt guilty. I took time for myself and missed her horribly. But guess what, she's 18. She's in 5 college level courses in her senior year of high school. She has an academic scholarship to an expensive private school. And all 5' 7.5" inches of her still likes to climb into my barely 5' 4" lap.
You will drop the ball. You will drop a whole lotta balls. You will drop little racquet balls like letting them eat cookies all day (and for the record we're 5 days out from Christmas I personally think you should make that a new tradition, but I digress). You will drop big giant cannon balls like a doctors appoint you confirmed and been waiting for for weeks, for yourself, or sending one to school when they are actually sick but you were in a rush in the morning and didn't realize it. There will also be basket balls, and golf balls, and marbles (some times yours) and it's all ok. We are not here for perfection. We are here to love the sh!t out of our kids and make sure they're ready to be grown ups and make grown up decisions when the time comes. Being a real human person around them. Taking breaks. Letting them eat cookies. Being a mean mommy. Having a headache. Checking out. Letting them know that can't have things because money is tight. All of that. That is showing them what it's like to be human. Complex, imperfect, loving, wonderful human.
Your children deserve to have reasonable expectations for themselves as adults. Being super mom 24/7 isn't reasonable. If one of your kids' spouses walked out the door and left them with 4 kids, and they were reeling and trying to keep it together and had horrible guilt for letting them eat cookies one day and we're a "mean" parent the next what would you tell them? Would you beat them up the way you are beating yourself up right now? If I know my Sage, the answer to that is a big fat no. My dear, you need to find a place where you allow yourself some grace and forgiveness. You deserve that. And so do your kids.
Oh, WF, you and Gerda and your wisdom and perfect words right now.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
No mother, no woman can be the ideal version of themselves to all people all of the time and that's a target you also need to walk away from.
You are absolutely right. Aiming for this target is a form of self-abuse that I need to work on. I have tended to serve others' first and myself last, not in a martyr way, but just because it comes easily to me. I have a high threshold to 'doing it all' and thrived on the 'you are a superwoman goddess!' image that all my friends and family hold of me. But it is time to rethink all of this. I need to spend some time exploring where I spend my energy and make sure my own oxygen mask is on before helping anyone else right now.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
You are doing your best to cope right now with your MR crumbling, with having to figure out who you are now and who you'll be on the other side of this. Of an uncertain future. A pandemic. Raising kids as a single mom. None of this is easy alone, much less piled on each other. The fact that you aren't spending 23 hours our of a 24 hour day crumpled up in sobbing ball on the floor with a bottle of wine in one hand and a fist full of kleenex in the other is in and of itself you being a supermom.
Haha! Did you peer in my bedroom window the other night?
Originally Posted by wayfarer
I'm going to tell you one really big secret of being a single mom. Single moms DGAF about having perfectly feed, beautifully dressed, angelic, well groomed and behaved children. We care about having kind, self-reliant, good kids who know they are supported and loved. My daughter grew up with waaaayyy too much screen time. She often ate fruit snacks and had juice boxes. She had McDonald's happy meals. Some times I let her stay up as late as she wanted. Or let her sleep in as long as she wanted even though I knew it was going to throw off her schedule. I locked myself in the bathroom to cry. I ignored her and felt guilty. I took time for myself and missed her horribly. But guess what, she's 18. She's in 5 college level courses in her senior year of high school. She has an academic scholarship to an expensive private school. And all 5' 7.5" inches of her still likes to climb into my barely 5' 4" lap.
You are such a good mama. You should be so proud of yourself. What a gift you are giving me with your experience and knowledge.
Reading this paragraph made me realize I need as much support and coaching on being a single mom as I do on DBing/standing/working on my MR. Maybe even more.
I need to accept that I won't be able to match the level of mothering, house-holding, emotional labor that I was capable of when partnered. I need to drop my own self-expectations to a level I can manage under the current state I am in. That maybe right now, just getting through the day is enough, no matter how we got there.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
We are not here for perfection. We are here to love the sh!t out of our kids and make sure they're ready to be grown ups and make grown up decisions when the time comes. Being a real human person around them. Taking breaks. Letting them eat cookies. Being a mean mommy. Having a headache. Checking out. Letting them know that can't have things because money is tight. All of that. That is showing them what it's like to be human. Complex, imperfect, loving, wonderful human.
Yes. This.
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Your children deserve to have reasonable expectations for themselves as adults. Being super mom 24/7 isn't reasonable. If one of your kids' spouses walked out the door and left them with 4 kids, and they were reeling and trying to keep it together and had horrible guilt for letting them eat cookies one day and we're a "mean" parent the next what would you tell them? Would you beat them up the way you are beating yourself up right now? If I know my Sage, the answer to that is a big fat no. My dear, you need to find a place where you allow yourself some grace and forgiveness. You deserve that. And so do your kids.
I heart you, I see you, I want to be there for you so much right now.
A few thoughts:
Originally Posted by Gerda
You are living in a totally impossible horrific situation with a person who ripped out your heart, stomped on it while forcing you to watch and then began demanding that you make him feel better for having had to rip and stomp and make you watch. He undermined everything your love and marriage and family and business stood for, and demanded that you understand why he must do that.
This hit me too, Sage. Hard. I remember back in the summer that someone called my H an emotional vampire that was going to suck me dry. This really stuck with me. At the moment (and this was when, IIRC, he was demanding that I listen and understand to just how much he loved AP and so how difficult that made it for him, etc.) I didn't totally get it. I thought, I'm validating. We're supposed to do that, right? And I want to know what is going on. But so many of my friends here were saying stop, may, this is wrong, this is NOT OKAY that I really did take notice and set up my boundaries around not listening to him talk about AP any more, and have kept that with me ever since.
When I read this from Gerda to you, it seemed so crystal clear to me to fit your relationship and what your H is doing. And it made me think of my own. So I went back and read my own posts from the summer. Ouch. Now I see what you guys were all talking about. It makes me want to vomit to read about the things he would tell me, and even more so to remember it happening.
Your H and mine are quite similar, I think, in many ways. My H wanted so so badly for me to give him my blessing on what he was doing. To say, it's okay. I understand. Go and we'll still be best friends. I couldn't do that. In hindsight I think it was sick he was asking me to give that to him at all.
I feel like your H is doing the same thing to you. He wants you to make it all better as you always have. He knows he's done-- is doing-- this terrible thing but if you agree it was the right thing to do, if you can just make him believe it was OK then he thinks he'll be better. it is heartbreaking, really... but NOT YOUR MONKEYS, right?
Can you drop that bow and arrow on the ground? Just turn your face away from the target and direct all that beautiful energy into yourself?
It so so resonates with me to be the supermom, super everything. But it was always a mirage, anyway. I don't know how different it is, truly, for us than it was for the 50s housewife who put on lipstick and greeted her H with a cocktail when he came home from work. We've all been sold a bill of goods. (Probably the men too, though the ones who have been gallivanting around on their work trips with OW don't take up a lot of my sympathy space.) The thing for you, though, is-- your kids are GREAT. They are so emotionally mature and perceptive and creative and resilient. They have each other (knitting and ornament making, I can't stand it) and you know they are going to be okay. Hold that in your heart. You've done good. They're great kids. You're a great mom. you've got this.
Elf on the shelf-- just in case, I have forgotten to move the dang elf many a night. Sometimes, the elf just needs to stay because he wanted to check something out, nothing must have been going on at the north pole, whatever. Kids usually come up with an explanation if you are quiet. Not that you will forget but just in case and remember if you do, you're still a good mom. (My kids said today.... mommy, his eyes are really DUSTY. And he has had this drop of water (I have no idea what they're talking about) on his face for DAYS. And it look like his hands are SEWN TOGETHER. I said, wow. I wonder why? And they took if from there. But I cleaned his poor face tonight.)
(((sage)))
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Happy New Year, Sage! Let's drink to remembering who we were before we forgot who we were or started doubting what we know or were made confused about how to love.
XO from Gerda
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Hi everyone, thanks for the holiday wishes! Happy 2021, may this year be better than the last and bring more peace and acceptance to all of our lives.
I have had some up and downs over the past 10 days or so. H was present for Christmas, which thrilled the children, but was hard on me. The days of playing happy family are definitely over for me, and thankfully there are no birthdays or holidays coming up soon.
The kids are great. They are such gems of human beings and I have really loved my time with them lately. I have gone easy on myself for the big stuff and just really focused on them and what matters. It is of course easier to do that with school being out and with H available to help more with them.
A couple of days ago, H and I got into a conversation that morphed into a R convo and a couple of things stood out to me that I would love help processing:
- H told me he is mirroring me. So if I am happy and pleasant and friendly, he is too. If I am a little more distant and self-protective, he is too. But at the same time, he monsters or jabs at me and then expects me to maintain pleasant and friendly (NC or low contact = Sage being distant and terrible, FWIW). I want to be pleasant and friendly, but there are lots of times when I just can't be those things and not betray my recovering sense of self.
- H has completely unrealistic expectations of what a D is going to do to him (us) financially. This really concerns me because we have the potential to D amicably or collaboratively, but the only way he is going to avoid those huge consequences is if I walk away with nothing (totally unrealistic, not going to happen). So I worry that his lack of understanding is going to create huge conflict when he realizes the truth and he will blame it on me and things will get ugly. We have crossed this bridge a few times over the last 6 months where he has an unrealistic idea in his head of how things are going to unfold and then is shocked when they unfold according to common sense consequences.
- H keeps telling me that in all of my pursuit for repairing our R over the past year, I never made the focus entirely on him, it was never about how much I loved and wanted HIM, it was more about the children or the business or our life. But I have emails and texts and conversations where it was all about him and us, and that has always been my focus in my heart and mind. I have experienced so much re-writing of history that I feel like this falls into that category, but it was more recent stuff. It is like he couldn't hear me say those things. Has this happened to any of you?
- In a lucid moment, H asked me what I needed from him. I said that it was really, really hard to see this person in front of me that I have loved and adored for 15 years, be so distant and cruel and pointedly hurtful to me. He acknowledged that he has so much resentment and bitterness built up in him towards me from things that have happened in our M that it makes him incapable of being that previous person and he feels angry and resentful. I have spent a year wracking my brain, heart and soul for everything I did wrong in our M to deserve this and I cannot come up with an equal balance sheet. Not even close. But I get that this is his narrative and there is nothing I can do to change it.
- Based upon the above, he brings this sackful of resentment to me every time we interact. He metaphorically throws it all at me, but doesn't want me to fix it or sort through it or try to make it better. It's a one-way street. I am in a glass cage. I can see him coming towards me with this sack of resentment and I can't escape. I know he is going to dump it on me and try to drown me with it.
I don't want to live like this anymore and I know that only I am in control of that. I am very close to complete no contact and a parallel-parenting situation (as opposed to the co-parenting situation we are attempting now). But in the end, a parallel parenting scenario is going to hurt the children the most (and their longterm R with him). So I would like to avoid that if possible, at least until he follows through with D and we have the contentious issues (finances, custody) hammered out.
Can my wise friends help me? Where are my blind spots on boundaries to protect myself from this toxicity?
Sage-o-licious -- I believe that any of us, even the Calm DnJ, would get confused if we tried to have an R talk with our MLCer.
Remember when Ophelia went crazy (in Hamlet)? After a couple lines in which those around her thought they might be able to have a conversation, they realized she was insane and they stopped trying to have a real conversation with her. They just looked at her sadly and said to each other, "Do you see?"
If you attempt to reason with the Crazy One, you will only become crazy yourself. And that is what is happening. You are wondering about all these non-realities. None of those things are reality. And you can't make Ophelia wake out of her madness. In fact, go watch that scene right now, just google a Royal Shakespeare Theater version of it. It's art, so it will do your soul good! And maybe it will help you step back out of the MLC bubble.
The proper thing to do right now if your H wants to have an R talk is to say, "I don't see our history that way at all and I am not ready to speak about that with you. I have to get dinner started. See you later!"
Sage, do you not see the cruelty of a man who is breaking up your family asking you what you need from him? That is CRAZY TALK. What you need is for him to wake the F up and be the man you married and live up to the truths you two lived by all this time until he decided to live by a completely new set of truths. You are still living by the old truths. Don't get confused!
If he wants to talk about a wound from his childhood and you want to listen, go for it. But you do not have to listen to anything about your R because none of it is going to be true. He will either one day wake up and see you as you really are or he will never wake up. Talking this through when he is like this is pointless. I would set a strict boundary on that R talk. To the above you can add, "I see you are working through a lot of things and I think that's something you need to do on your own. We can work through anything as part of a marriage but not as part of a divorce. That's too painful for me so I am going to leave now."
Also that line about the focus on him versus the children -- yes, every man wants his wife to find him sexy and wonderful and the center of her world, and we need to make time for that. But a great husband WANTS his wife to focus on their children and be an amazing mom. A person with NPD -- long term or the potentially temporary one of MLC -- does not want that. Everything your H says is exactly what all of us heard from our MLCers. We wracked our brains too. We beat ourselves up to. A couple years later, some of us had our MLCer wake up and s/he stopped saying that nonsense. But some of us didn't. And the MLCer kept thinking that, and there was nothing we could do.
Sage, I was totally devoted and loving to my H after BD. I was before that too, but I really transformed myself after BD and did the Love Dare like four times, waited for him for SEVEN YEARS. I am not a perfect person but I was patient, silent, loving, supportive, while he trounced. I never ever tried to have an R talk or rarely permitted that once I got a little wiser and if he tried to tell me about OW, I said, "That is between you and God. Do not speak to me about that." And then I either took a walk or went back to cooking or whatever. Mine never came back, never saw me as I really am, just got worse and meaner and meaner. I have several friends, some from here and some from ministry, whose MLCer did come back and they did rebuild. It can go either way but only if your H comes out of his crazy head. Nothing you do can change that. Just live according to what you know to be true, walk with grace and courage, don't sink into his mire. If he comes back, wonderful. If not, you never lost sight of truth, love, beauty, and you grew stronger and wiser and even more beautiful in your soul.
Point is, don't talk about that stuff. It won't work and it will only make you crazy. When he is clear-headed one day, you will know, and you will not have to wrack your brain or torture yourself or feel confused.
Also about the financial unreality -- yes, all those things are going to happen. So get all the finances documented and use formulas to figure out the split. If he loses it or gets mad, nothing you can do. Have to go to court. I've been doing it for three years and no end in sight. Decide what you can give up and be ready to do that. Anything else, yes, it will be awful and you will have to fight him for what is right for your kids. Document everything and fight for your kids and surrender the idea that you can keep him from losing it. It's what we all went through and I think I can say that my sitch is the hyperbolic example of how bad it can be. Your job is to get strong enough to walk through it, not to keep your H from facing reality or having to give you your share. That said, don't fight for every little thing. Decide what loss you can live with to have peace. Don't offer it at the beginning, but be ready to go there if you have to.
Last edited by Gerda; 01/03/2102:41 AM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
- H told me he is mirroring me. So if I am happy and pleasant and friendly, he is too. If I am a little more distant and self-protective, he is too. But at the same time, he monsters or jabs at me and then expects me to maintain pleasant and friendly (NC or low contact = Sage being distant and terrible, FWIW). I want to be pleasant and friendly, but there are lots of times when I just can't be those things and not betray my recovering sense of self.
Yes, people do tend to emulate others. H’s mirroring illustrates you being the lighthouse. Of course it is still up to him to steer his ship.
Be pleasant and friendly (for you), and boundary behaviours that are disrespectful. You will need to use a grain or two of salt with H and his behaviour. You cannot, well I suppose you could boundary 100%, however that will most likely be counterproductive. Be kind and cordial; think friendly not friends. He is trying to divorce you after all.
Originally Posted by Sage4
- H has completely unrealistic expectations of what a D is going to do to him (us) financially. This really concerns me because we have the potential to D amicably or collaboratively, but the only way he is going to avoid those huge consequences is if I walk away with nothing (totally unrealistic, not going to happen). So I worry that his lack of understanding is going to create huge conflict when he realizes the truth and he will blame it on me and things will get ugly. We have crossed this bridge a few times over the last 6 months where he has an unrealistic idea in his head of how things are going to unfold and then is shocked when they unfold according to common sense consequences.
Of course he has unrealistic expectations. He is a confused emotional man and divorce is messy. When his expectations aren’t met he will become resentful, and he will blame you (again).
Don’t worry about it. Stick to business, and let it unfold with all the common sense consequences landing right where they should and need to.
Originally Posted by Sage4
- H keeps telling me that in all of my pursuit for repairing our R over the past year, I never made the focus entirely on him, it was never about how much I loved and wanted HIM, it was more about the children or the business or our life. But I have emails and texts and conversations where it was all about him and us, and that has always been my focus in my heart and mind. I have experienced so much re-writing of history that I feel like this falls into that category, but it was more recent stuff. It is like he couldn't hear me say those things. Has this happened to any of you?
H isn’t ready to repair the relationship. It takes two. You best stop trying, as it will be felt as pressure to him.
H is, and will, create whatever he needs too. Your emails, and proof, will not dissuade him from his narrative and unfortunately his belief/feelings. His history is among the casualties in his running.
Rewriting history is extremely common. My XW was convinced that she has been unhappy for 2, 5, 15 years. That’s how she said it - 2.. 5..15 years. So confused and grasping and anything to justify her actions and sooth her guilt.
Along with the past, the present is altered and ignored...when that suits them. Nice talks, pleasant times, and such, will go unremembered or unacknowledged from the MLCer. Those things do not fit within the reality they are crafting, so they ignore them. However, when we take the bait and get into an argument, their Swiss cheese mind suddenly becomes a steel trap.
When he says things like “never made the focus entirely on him, it was never about how much I loved and wanted HIM, it was more about the children or the business or our life”, answer “I’m sorry you feel that way”. That’s it. No defending. He is using your defending to further his ideas.
Originally Posted by Sage4
- In a lucid moment, H asked me what I needed from him. I said that it was really, really hard to see this person in front of me that I have loved and adored for 15 years, be so distant and cruel and pointedly hurtful to me. He acknowledged that he has so much resentment and bitterness built up in him towards me from things that have happened in our M that it makes him incapable of being that previous person and he feels angry and resentful. I have spent a year wracking my brain, heart and soul for everything I did wrong in our M to deserve this and I cannot come up with an equal balance sheet. Not even close. But I get that this is his narrative and there is nothing I can do to change it.
Back away! It’s a trap!
Be friendly not friends.
H has given you a gift. He told you plainly what is going on in him - he feels angry and resentful. You do not want the target upon you.
Yes, the balance sheet will not even be close. You know this. H is lashing out, projecting, blaming, because he cannot look to himself.
Step out of the line of fire.
Originally Posted by Sage4
- Based upon the above, he brings this sackful of resentment to me every time we interact. He metaphorically throws it all at me, but doesn't want me to fix it or sort through it or try to make it better. It's a one-way street. I am in a glass cage. I can see him coming towards me with this sack of resentment and I can't escape. I know he is going to dump it on me and try to drown me with it.
Yep. (((Hugs)))
H definitely doesn’t want you to fix it or sort through it. He needs to grow up, and part of that is dealing with his feelings. He has resentments and feels angry. Let him be. Stand clear of all that, so you are not a source of reinforcement to him of his feelings.
Originally Posted by Sage4
I don't want to live like this anymore and I know that only I am in control of that. I am very close to complete no contact and a parallel-parenting situation (as opposed to the co-parenting situation we are attempting now). But in the end, a parallel parenting scenario is going to hurt the children the most (and their longterm R with him). So I would like to avoid that if possible, at least until he follows through with D and we have the contentious issues (finances, custody) hammered out.
A parallel-parenting situation is better than an attempted co-parenting situation. If/when things improve, co-parenting will evolve from parallel-parenting. Please do not imagine too many future negatives regarding parallel-parenting. One really cannot predict. It is good to be mindful of possible hurt to the children; be equally mindful of the possible good as well. Remember, the grass is greener where you water it.
Find indifference. Let go of H. Leave him to his choices. Let him feel what it will be like to be divorced.
Originally Posted by Sage4
Where are my blind spots on boundaries to protect myself from this toxicity?
Friendly, not friends. Your friends don’t treat you that way!
H’s path is about him. Make your’s about you.
You got this.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
A parallel-parenting situation is better than an attempted co-parenting situation. If/when things improve, co-parenting will evolve from parallel-parenting. Please do not imagine too many future negatives regarding parallel-parenting. One really cannot predict. It is good to be mindful of possible hurt to the children; be equally mindful of the possible good as well. Remember, the grass is greener where you water it.
I will co-sign this. I've been parallel parenting since the start, 18 months ago, and only now is co-parenting starting to look like a distant possibility, and only because I am feeling ready. If it can be done with a baby/toddler, it can be done with older kids. If anything, your older kids are probably noticing more than they need to see during these co-parenting attempts.
Parallel parenting is not unkind, to H or the kids, it's just one of the many ways that divorce can happen. Your kids being older can understand why you've chosen that route. Mum's rules at mum's house, dad's rules at dad's house. You discuss major parenting matters when they arise and live your separate lives with the kids otherwise. What makes you think it would harm their relationship with their dad? That should be his responsibility to sort out.
In my sitch, we use email for formal matters, text for urgent matters, and a notebook that travels between households for day-to-day matters. The only thing we don't do is communicate in person. It's a sanity-saver.
Sage, if time could rewind, I would go NC a lot sooner than I did. It’s natural for us to try to make sense of everything, try to understand what the MLCer is going through....but like Gerda said, there is no point talking to the Crazy. When consistent sanity returns, you will know. Don’t get caught up on the occasional niceties he’s showing.
A parallel parenting situation is actually best for the children in this scenario, because the MLCer is so unpredictable (or predicabily crazy) and it’s pretty much impossible to come to a consensus on anything with your H at this point. The children’s relationship with dad is out of your hands. Your H needs to worry about that himself. I totally agree with scout on this. My house my rules. His house his rules. Kids are smart, they will observe and figure out who’s the reliable and responsible parent they can trust.
A parallel-parenting situation is better than an attempted co-parenting situation. If/when things improve, co-parenting will evolve from parallel-parenting. Please do not imagine too many future negatives regarding parallel-parenting. One really cannot predict. It is good to be mindful of possible hurt to the children; be equally mindful of the possible good as well. Remember, the grass is greener where you water it.
I will co-sign this. I've been parallel parenting since the start, 18 months ago, and only now is co-parenting starting to look like a distant possibility, and only because I am feeling ready. If it can be done with a baby/toddler, it can be done with older kids. If anything, your older kids are probably noticing more than they need to see during these co-parenting attempts.
Parallel parenting is not unkind, to H or the kids, it's just one of the many ways that divorce can happen. Your kids being older can understand why you've chosen that route. Mum's rules at mum's house, dad's rules at dad's house. You discuss major parenting matters when they arise and live your separate lives with the kids otherwise. What makes you think it would harm their relationship with their dad? That should be his responsibility to sort out.
In my sitch, we use email for formal matters, text for urgent matters, and a notebook that travels between households for day-to-day matters. The only thing we don't do is communicate in person. It's a sanity-saver.
I 100% agree with Scout. Co-parenting is over rated IMO. You talk about medical or school issues via text or phone call.
Sage I think you have to make a decision and stay consistent with it because your actions are likely confusing to your STBXH. I think every time he's nice or asks questions you get your hopes up and loosen your boundaries only to get reality thrown your way again. Then you want to tighten the boundaries again. Can you see why this is confusing to him?
When you moved over to the MLC forum I was concerned that you were doing it to hold on longer. I think it's time to let go and move on with your own life.
When you moved over to the MLC forum I was concerned that you were doing it to hold on longer. I think it's time to let go and move on with your own life.
Just wanted to chime in here because I know that when my heart was RAW, this kinda comment would kill me and would also propel me into not visiting the boards anymore.
Also MLC is LOOOOONG. It takes forever. You are a baby LBSer in terms of MLC. You might want to keep coming here off and on for years just to have kind voices who understand the insanity. Maybe one day your H will wake up and you'll want to talk about that too, whether you "moved on" or not.
In short, I agree about the boundaries but not about letting go and moving on. It's just not possible to get there because someone tells you to. Maybe you want to stand for your marriage and NOT move on. That's your choice and it's a beautiful choice! You do not need the pressure of trying to move on and feeling bad about yourself because you can't or don't want to. You just need to figure out some boundaries that will give you some peace and keep the MLC monster outside the back door and not at the kitchen table. You don't need to know what is going to happen or anything else. You just need to put one foot out in front of you and then the next one. Right now you want to figure out how to get the boundaries you need to parallel parent and have less contact. Take one tiny step per day -- e.g., "This week I will not answer any of H's text except on Fridays." And after you do the step successfully, give Sage a big hug and say, "Well done! This is dang hard and I did that!"
Last edited by Gerda; 01/04/2107:06 PM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Hello my sweet Sage, There's not much here to be said that hasn't already been said. I only have a few things to add.
First and foremost being you are not responsible for how another person feels about you or themselves. Your H's words and actions speak volumes about who he is and say nothing about who you are. MLC or not that's a universal truth and you know this. It is not your job to make H feel better, do better, be better, or whatever else he's trying to dump on you as your responsibility. Only he is responsible for his actions, reactions, and interactions.
H asking what you need I don't believe was a ruse. But that's my personal opinion. My exH and my H, when he was in the worst of this, would peek out and I could see who they used to be. It may last a day, an hour, a minute, a split second and then it's gone. He may have truly wanted to know what you needed when those words came out of his mouth, but that doesn't mean he was able to care or process what the answer was. And that's what you need to try to remember. Even if you get glimpses of who he was he isn't that man any more and it's best for you if you don't open yourself up to a person who isn't capable of taking care with your thoughts and feelings.
Friendly not friends is very, very hard when you still love that person, but the best way I was able to manage it was self preservation. I know that that is how I've been conditioned. self preservation above all else. I know that will be very hard for some one as empathetic and serving as you are. But this is a time in your life where radical self love means you choose what will keep your heart, mind and soul safe above all else. No matter who it hurts. As long as your children are not hurt by you in the process keep that at your forefront at all times.
I have gone between parallel parenting and co-parenting with exH over the last 18 years. We co-parent when he's capable. We parallel parent when he's not. H and his ex have parallel parented since they split D16 was around 3 when that happened. Co-parenting is best case scenario, but that doesn't mean it's possible. And you can't successfully co-parent with a parent who isn't in their right mind. Mental illness, AODA issues, crisis. What ever it is, it can't be done, and as long as you are willing to come together when things are incredibly important than that's all that matters. And as far as what's important, that something I'm going to need you to sit with an revise. I know one of the kiddos was having a hard time transitioning from house to house and you deemed that as important and wanted H to get on board. Honey, that wasn't important enough to engage with a person who is incapable of empathy. That was a matter you and kiddo should've talked out together. You will not be able to count on H to be receptive and helpful with the kids 100% of the time. If it isn't a major medical, educational, or mental health decision you are going to have to work most of this out on your own. You can't co-parent with a person who isn't capable. And every time you try to involve H and he doesn't carry his fair share, or gives you a non-answer, or a completely unreasonable solution he will find away to turn it into you being overbearing, or manipulative, or crazy, or what ever he wants to pin on you that week. You can't give him opportunities to pin you down.
Sage, this game is hard for you because it's game you've never had to play before. But you will have to play it if you want to survive a divorce and parenting with this man for years to come. It's a really hard thing to come to terms with. It's a really painful thing to watch someone you loved so much become a complete stranger. But it does get easier. It does become familiar. It does become second hand. It's like a very, very long game of poker. You can't tip your hand. It's best if you play close to the vest, and assume that the other player is almost always bluffing.
At this point, standing and moving on look exactly the same. Actions aren’t any different . Standing basically means not dating anyone else or filing for divorce. Both involve letting go and both involve moving on. Moving on doesn’t necessarily mean dating. It means you live your life the way that benefits you and your children . So no matter which you chose to do, both look the same .
Gerda, you hit the nail on the head again with your wisdom. Don't engage with crazy (loved the Ophelia reference).
DnJ, you are helping me see the difference between friends and friendly, among your other sage advice.
Scout and Wooba, thanks for expanding on the parallel parenting discussion. Things can start out as one path and morph in the future. But for now, I need to protect myself above all else. I am less afraid of parallel parenting the more I read your perspectives and experiences.
LH, you are right on all your points. My actions ARE confusing for H, although it took you saying that for me to really understand it, so thank you. I need to get consistent in my actions for ME. As a side effect, it may clear up that confusion for H.
And I also agree with your comments about moving to MLC forum. I do believe H is going through an MLC and the perspective from this side helps me understand the 'script' coming from him-- and externalize it so that *I* can heal. I deeply admire long-term standers on this forum, but I know in my heart that I will move on before too long.
WF, your advice as per usual, is spot on. Your experience with parallel parenting, self-preservation, not being responsible for someone else's feelings, friendly not friends (and how hard that is when you love someone) just hit all the right buttons at this moment.
Ginger, yes! I can 'stand' for the time being, but I know if the D goes through I will move on and date. And that in the meantime, they both look the same anyway.
-----
I am moving to a place where self-love is more important than love for or from H. Right now, H is not here to save me, protect me or love me in the way I want to be loved. Only I can save myself and I can't save myself when I am trying to save others.
I am also coming to terms that not only do I not want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me, but I also don't want to even be around anyone who doesn't desire my company or treat me with basic respect, kindness and regard. I have enough healing and growing to do at the moment to be swept up in the tornado of someone else's projections.
I read some super old posts here by Robx and Gucci Loafer, who took a fairly hard-line approach towards their WAS and dropping the rope. Although not all the advice resonates with me and my situation, it did help me to define my need to move on emotionally and has helped me begin to craft my own roadmap towards truly dropping the rope. If you're interested in reading the threads, this one was particularly helpful for me:
I have taken some small steps towards reclaiming my sense of sanity. I am learning more about parallel parenting and am warming to that approach. It has been about a week so far and honestly it is better than I thought it would be.
I am examining my 'triggers' and how they inform my actions. For example, my house is more messy than it has been in a long time. I don't really care (it's clean enough to be healthy and dirty enough to be happy!) my children are creative and active and they don't care, I was doing it to absolve myself of my H's mean comment about me being messy, which he recently reiterated and it kind of made me snap inside. Letting go of caring what he thinks around this is a big step for me.
Instead of keeping a perfectly clean house, I have gone on walks with friends, spent an hour each night playing games with the kids and prioritized getting really good sleep each night (going to bed with the kids rather than staying up and cleaning once they go to bed).
Thanks for being my sounding boards, dear friends!
I am also coming to terms that not only do I not want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me, but I also don't want to even be around anyone who doesn't desire my company or treat me with basic respect, kindness and regard. I have enough healing and growing to do at the moment to be swept up in the tornado of someone else's projections.
Bingo!
Also - re: the housecleaning: one of my ex's complaints about me was that I wasn't a tidy enough housekeeper (actually the best thing we ever did for our marriage was get a cleaning lady to come in once every two weeks). But recently I digitized all our home movies from when the kids were little, and you know what? Our house looks awesome in every one of them! Almost like a beach casual house out of apartment therapy or something. Uncluttered, no dust bunnies, pretty darn clean for a house with three kids and a German Shepherd who shed a lot!
Teach the kids to clean with you once a week for your OWN sake (and theirs), but let go of your H's negativity around it.
LH, you are right on all your points. My actions ARE confusing for H, although it took you saying that for me to really understand it, so thank you. I need to get consistent in my actions for ME. As a side effect, it may clear up that confusion for H.
And I also agree with your comments about moving to MLC forum. I do believe H is going through an MLC and the perspective from this side helps me understand the 'script' coming from him-- and externalize it so that *I* can heal. I deeply admire long-term standers on this forum, but I know in my heart that I will move on before too long.
I am glad that my comments helped you to understand the dynamic.
I read once in a book that people like to diagnose people that break up with them with depression, MLC, etc. so they have an excuse to continue to love someone who hurt them so bad. After all they are full grown adults who know the difference between right and wrong. They CHOOSE to do what they do knowing they are hurting many people involved.
Imagine being in court and the lawyer tried to use the MLC defense. Sorry defendant you are guilty as charged.
Again this doesn't mean you will never get back together again. It just means you are moving forward with your life.
Yesterday evening I scrolled a little bit on my phone and came across the following. I guess this is how we all need to feel at some point. Not immediately, time will tell...
When I think about him and me and what happened between us, I get pretty sad at first. Or is it empty?
Not just because of what he did but because of what I let happen and to whom I let myself fade.
I stopped being who I was and too often forgot to stand up for myself.
I wanted him to be right and the kids of course, but where was I in all that story ?!
I lost bits of myself, I put them away to keep what was there.
My intuition was the first thing I put in a box and aimed high in a closet, then my internal compass, also somewhere in a box, and finally my common sense.
That was somewhere in the non-existent basement.
My mistake, of course, not his.
Of course he never asked me to do that, but he never asked me to take the boxes back out of the cupboard.
And in the end it all turned out not to be enough to save it. Or to save him. Or the family.
But I do know that my self-love and self-esteem were stronger than what was in the closets and basement.
I felt that forgiving myself for what I had failed myself and where I went wrong were crucial to moving forward.
Of course I also had to forgive him but the love for myself was fortunately greater to continue with a high head and a broken heart.
And where my thoughts of us first make me sad, then they make me powerful and happy.
It taught me to regain full access to myself, every millimeter of myself is my property again.
Ultimately, we only have to live with ourselves.
To learn to live.
Or to survive, if things go against the grain.
But don't let anyone take your self-love or self-esteem away from you. Own it. Claim it.
Afterwards you will say to yourself: how did I allow that? How did I allow that?
No one is so important that you have to sell yourself short.
So, be aware if you see yourself putting things in the closet.
It is not worth it.
You are worth more.
For all the love in the world, no one is worth short of yourself. ❤️
Me(45)EXH(44) M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16 04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1 12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child) 03/22-Divorce official 06/22-08/23 Reconnecting 09/23-possible back with OW2
I read once in a book that people like to diagnose people that break up with them with depression, MLC, etc. so they have an excuse to continue to love someone who hurt them so bad. After all they are full grown adults who know the difference between right and wrong. They CHOOSE to do what they do knowing they are hurting many people involved.
This is a really interesting point, LH. I would also venture that in addition to using a diagnosis as an excuse for a LBS to continue to love someone that has hurt them so badly, the diagnosis can also help the LBS to externalize the pain. I know that there is a part of me that uses the 'diagnosis' as a way to explain the unexplainable. I know intellectually that H's decisions and actions are not all on me. Of course I played a role in the demise of our M, but not a speck more than 50%. If he is 'in crisis', it helps me on the emotional level to see his projections for what they are (not about me) and find compassion for this person suffering in front of me.
I know there is no right or wrong way to move through this challenging time in our lives (key word is moving through... we all need to move through it one way or another, not stay stagnant) and we all gather the tools we need and take the advice that works for us as individuals in our growth.
Eagle, I love your post, such wise words to live by, thank you so much for sharing.
I know there is no right or wrong way to move through this challenging time in our lives (key word is moving through... we all need to move through it one way or another, not stay stagnant) and we all gather the tools we need and take the advice that works for us as individuals in our growth.
You are absolutely correct one way or another you are moving through it. I think it's good to have hope early on because it gets people motivated to make the changes they need to make. But after awhile I think hope can lead to major disappointment because after all the definition of hope is "a feeling of expectation and desire for a certain thing to happen". This IMO causes suffering.
It really for me comes down to you want people in your life who respect you and bring you joy. If your husband does not respect you and bring you joy then he gets the gift of missing you. Business partner only in the business of raising your children.
Yes, hope is "a feeling of expectation and desire for a certain thing to happen". Be clear, it is a feeling of expectation; it is not expectation.
Hope lies in the possibilities. Possibilities are both positive and negative, with hope being the positive possibilities we are looking towards and desire.
Expectations are the difficulty, and that which causes resentment and suffering. Expectations are hopes with a timeframe or deadline attached to them. When one attached a time limit or timeframe upon a hopefully desire it becomes an expectation. That deadline makes hope dead.
Desires lay upon a spectrum from wishes to expectations, with hope existing between the two ends of that spectrum. It ranges from the fanciful desires or wishes to likely expected outcomes. It ranges from the impossible or highly improbable to the highly likely to become real.
Consider this:
I wish to win the lottery. I hope to win the lottery. I expect to win the lottery.
It is very clear to infer the timeframe one would associated with each of those statements. It is also clear the level of frustration and resentment that would result when each of those goes unmet. Imagine expecting to win week after week; it wouldn’t take long and one would be pretty resentful and suffering from their unrealistic expectation.
Hope is between a wish and expectation. It is timeless - in the very best sense. Hope is an incredible well-spring of strength and good positive forward vision of one’s self, of others, and of life.
Hope does not ignore the possibilities - it embraces them. All hopes are possible. Probable is also a matter to consider for one’s balanced approach. However, probable does exactly what it says - gives the probabilities of a certain thing becoming real or happening. Sounds like deadline thinking doesn’t it, and that will kill hope.
Of course, expectations are normal. I fully expect my car to start tomorrow, the water to run in my house, the power to be on (well maybe that one is a bit less lol), and so on. Winning the lottery, nope. No expectations of that happening. Wishes sure.
It is a razors edge one walks at first. Kind of like many of the views we learn and accept on this path. And after a while, hope becomes. We become. We live hopeful happy good lives.
Hope has a feeling of expectation to it. That positive emotional energy of something desirable to happen, and yet no time component to quell it. When one focuses upon their positive future possibilities, they realize how very many of those possibilities are indeed coming true. It is truly amazing. And self-renewing.
I hope you see, and remove, the time component from your hopes as well. The future is unknown, with many many good things in store for you, and everyone. Look with hope to your future, and let it unfold in its own time.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Yes, thank you DnJ for the wonderful explanation of hope.
At this point, all my hope 'eggs' are going into my own basket. For my own future and that which I want to accomplish in this life, whether or not I remain married to H.
I was watching really old home videos with the kids the other night, from back when my first two were babies. A few weeks ago, that would have put me in a puddle of my own sad tears, but this time I was able to watch them objectively. When I watched those videos, I kept thinking 'I am such a good mom' (my littlest even came up behind me, wrapped her little arms around my neck, put her face against mine and said 'mama, you are SUCH a good mommy'-- she wasn't even in the videos they were before she was born... little heartthrob child). I also noticed that I was a really good daughter and DIL (most of the videos were made for faraway family) and most importantly, I was a really good wife. I look beautiful and serene and love oozes from my being in every frame: love for my husband, love for my children, love for our life. I remembered that feeling. The truth is there, so plainly.
And the thing is, watching these videos, I realized that not much has changed. I am still a great mother, daughter, and friend. I am still beautiful, I am still loving, I am (mostly) serene. And I will continue to be a great partner, whether to H or to some unknown person in the future.
This isn't some effort to pat myself on the back, more of an objective self-awareness that I am reclaiming my history and reclaiming myself. The sudden re-writing of our history, the emotional devastation of BD, all the accusations thrown at me, combined with my own desire for growth, self-awareness and a willingness to change created a toxic mudslide that slipped me straight down into a pool of self-doubt, low self-esteem, low self-worth. BD took a lot away from me, but the truth of who I really am is something that no one can take away from me again unless I allow them to.
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H and I have been parallel parenting just fine. He has stepped up in the parenting department and for that I am grateful. I had a work day today and kept thinking of how hard it will be for H/the business to replace me. Everyone is replaceable, that I know from my years as an executive, but the dizzying success of our business has been built upon our innate ability to compliment each other's talents and pull equally on the same yoke. I am sure that H will find a way without me and I have no doubt that I also find my own direction as well, but it just seems such a short-sighted shame to throw all of this away. The business, the beautiful family and most importantly the love that we so clearly shared all these years.
I can't imagine being in a place where I was willing to do that. And for that reason, I have a lot of compassion for H.
LH, you wrote on someone else's thread that the difference between a WS/WAS and a LBS is time. I have been brewing on that for a while. I know deep down that H is going to regret his decisions and his actions, but for the first time I am beginning to believe that maybe I won't. That maybe there is more out there for me. Not just a person, but a whole life. What am I capable of accomplishing if I all that energy I put into him and our business was utilized somewhere else, something of my own design? I know I still have a long road ahead of me with a threatened D, but your sentence has opened my eyes just a tiny bit to a future I couldn't see a few weeks back.
It is really good when we reclaim our self, and stop believing the narrative of our spouse.
H rewrote his history. And it is pretty easy to get caught up in that revision with someone so seemly sure of themselves.
Time shows the truth. The confusion revealed, the projections become apparent, the false justifications realized.
In time, the LBS stands...up. Head held high, shoulders back, confident, strong, and a smile in their heart.
Time is a gift. We find ourselves, our deep core. We invest into us. The dividends pay huge returns.
Originally Posted by Sage4
I can't imagine being in a place where I was willing to do that. And for that reason, I have a lot of compassion for H.
For the moment “can’t” is mostly true. Compassion has an element of indifference to it.
Compassion leads to understanding and empathy and forgiveness, as indifference somewhat melts away. One becomes able to imagine a place; a suffering; a torment; a darkness where running could be viewed as one’s only escape of the horrible existence that is MLC.
Realize the person in crisis is completely depressed. Their “willing to do that” is less willing and more driven to. They absolutely need to run, to escape. Yet, one cannot escape themselves, and that is the lesson some sadly do not learn.
Imagination is the first step of creation. We first imagine that which we are going to build. Be it a bird house, a picnic table, a new kitchen, a family, a life, or forgiveness. We must first be able to imagine it.
Originally Posted by Sage4
LH, you wrote on someone else's thread that the difference between a WS/WAS and a LBS is time. I have been brewing on that for a while. I know deep down that H is going to regret his decisions and his actions, but for the first time I am beginning to believe that maybe I won't. That maybe there is more out there for me. Not just a person, but a whole life. What am I capable of accomplishing if I all that energy I put into him and our business was utilized somewhere else, something of my own design? I know I still have a long road ahead of me with a threatened D, but your sentence has opened my eyes just a tiny bit to a future I couldn't see a few weeks back.
You have the time.
You are investing it wisely. You see the possibilities. You are starting to believe in them.
Just imagine what you can accomplish. What future you can create.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I noticed in this post and others of yours that you say a lot about how poorly you are doing when it is clear that you are doing very well, are an amazing mom and are handling a disgusting situation with as much grace as you possibly can. And on this post you write this very interesting and insightful and very not-whiny post and then sort of pre-apologize for it being too onerous to read!
And it seems this is the same thing you are doing with your H. How do I know? I WAS YOU.
You are living in a totally impossible horrific situation with a person who ripped out your heart, stomped on it while forcing you to watch and then began demanding that you make him feel better for having had to rip and stomp and make you watch. He undermined everything your love and marriage and family and business stood for, and demanded that you understand why he must do that. And then you are wondering why you sometimes feel a bad feeling or have trouble focusing. And in between you take your four beautiful children ice skating and call across the ice to your darlings, "Look up! Look at where you want to go!" and that is a glorious light-filled moment they will never ever forget, it will feed their souls -- and then you wonder why you would dread having to be around a man who makes you feel rejected and who makes you question your whole life together and your worth as a woman and a mother and a business partner, you berate yourself for not being detached enough to not enjoy negotiating the practicalities of how to best parent while someone rips your family apart, And in the background lurks an evil husband snatcher who thinks she has a right to destroy five lives for her "happiness." And then you apologize for writing something onerous!
Is there any way to post this so every newcomer can see it?? This is pure DB gold.
ME47 XH44, S28 S24 S19
8/17-BD IHS: 1/17-2/19 D FILED (ME): 7/19 D FINAL: 10/20 M23 T25 OW CONFIRMED: 01/21
Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
Hi friends! I have been reading along but haven't been able to post for a while.
Things have been going good since I last posted. I am afraid to own this wholeheartedly because I know it's not a linear process, but I finally feel like I might have reached acceptance. My outlook has changed from 'what I am going to do without an intact family and H in my life?' to 'what am I going to do with all this energy and potential I have been putting in the M basket all these years?' That sentiment has been backed up by real-life actions: I have been meeting with a mentor on starting my own business, I have leaned into my kids and their well-being with joy and excitement for our future, and I am back to my usual self of being much more curious about others and their process than ruminating on my own situation (more or less .
I also began the conversation with H about next steps. He wants to negotiate and decide the division of our lives as much as possible without lawyers or third parties involved. My first reaction was hesitancy because I cannot take the spewing and monstering that seems to come with any difficult conversations. I want a third party there to act as a buffer. I am willing to try, but realized I needed some clear boundaries in place beforehand. So I asked that we both come up with a list of expectations of each other for these conversations. I started by writing an email that is basically a loving list of boundaries and deal-breakers for me. It is not unreasonable, I wrote it without resentment, bitterness or sadness, and I feel empowered that if we breach each other's boundaries, we will move forward with a third party to protect each other from further emotional harm.
On a sad note, we said goodbye to our old, loyal pup a couple of days ago. She entered our lives just before we got married and represented so many memories, life experiences, our love and our marriage. The loss is huge for our whole family and I have been crying on and off for the past week since we made the decision. H and I were able to bond over this experience and our shared grief and it seemed to crack off some of the veneer of bitterness and resentment that has been present from him. At least for now.
The kids are going back to school part-time starting next week. I will have roughly 3 hours a day, which I have not had in almost a year. What am I going to do with all that time? I am giddy with the potential (work on my business idea, get a run in everyday, complete some delayed work projects for our joint business, just having time alone that doesn't require negotiation is huge in an of itself!). I am so grateful.
Sage, you are such a grounded, level-headed person. Do try to work it out with him directly (while getting legal advice in the background to make sure you know your rights and have covered your bases). An early resolution among cooperative folks will generally lead to the best outcome.
A suggestion, perhaps come up with a schedule of topics and try to deal with them in short meetings. Long meetings covering lots of topics are tough in the best of times. Have an attorney review anything before you sign. Know your deal breakers and your throwaways. People don't always want the same things and sometimes the other side really cares about something you don't. Also private resolutions provide much more flexibility than what the court can grant. So put on your thinking cap. What can you give him that you don't value and he might. Does he have fears you could allay in some way? Often people draw lines in the sand insistent on getting things the court can't even give them or fighting to the death over hypothetical issues.
Always good to get custody/visitation out of the way and it isn't something you can tradeoff for other factors.
Great on you for turning off the navel gazing and looking out. It's what we all should do and most fail miserably (and I definitely fall into that category).
I gather from your posts that you are in the legal field, so I am so grateful for your thoughts. Thank you for the encouragement to try and work it out as much as possible between us. On an intuitive level, it feels like the right path to approach first.
Originally Posted by OwnIt
A suggestion, perhaps come up with a schedule of topics and try to deal with them in short meetings. Long meetings covering lots of topics are tough in the best of times. Have an attorney review anything before you sign. Know your deal breakers and your throwaways. People don't always want the same things and sometimes the other side really cares about something you don't. Also private resolutions provide much more flexibility than what the court can grant. So put on your thinking cap. What can you give him that you don't value and he might. Does he have fears you could allay in some way? Often people draw lines in the sand insistent on getting things the court can't even give them or fighting to the death over hypothetical issues.
Always good to get custody/visitation out of the way and it isn't something you can tradeoff for other factors.
I would recommend you have a consultation on your own with an attorney. Just to find out what are your rights, and what is reasonable to expect. All too often these “let’s work it out ourselves” situations result in the woman getting shafted more often than not.
Then ask for a little bit more than you’re entitled to, so you have some room to negotiate.
If you’re in the US and have been married less than ten years, consider waiting until it’s been ten years - there are potential Social Security advantages.
Meanwhile collect all the financial records you can, including tax returns, info on any pensions or retirement funds he has, etc.
My exH and I were able to work things out without an intermediary but I was the WAW that left and I took hardly anything. I was very ready to walk away with out a lot that was due to me just to be done. I had I held out a little longer before filing we would've made it to 10 years but it wasn't worth it to me. Like at all. I'm definitely with Own. If you can do this without 2 lawyers and a judge, it's best. I know there's a huge group of folks on here who truly believe that you should be looking out for #1 and get all you can, but as I was with H #1 I was ready to be with H #2 I was more interested in being done and having my bases cover than getting what I "deserved." I will say that I had an attorney behind me in both cases, just in case. A lot can be done if you're willing to let go and let god, but you can't trust that your unbalanced STBXH will do the same. I was separated for a year from exH before I filed he had a lot of time to reflect. The other thing I totally agree with Own is work out custody, placement, visitation first. Everything else is just confetti after that. Don't let him use those kids as bargaining chips.
Dear Sage—just popping in for a moment to say I am thinking of you and am so sorry for the loss of your dear pup. I am glad H was able to share the grief with you and say goodbye—maybe this is a small comfort. These pets are family and also witness the changes in our lives. They share so much love with us. I have a really hard time imagining ever parting with our two cats, who came into our lives on our first anniversary. The director at my new job was talking about losing her first dog years ago—the first dog that was really hers and saw her through many firsts in her life. She said when the dog died she thought she would be devastated, but she was surprised to find she felt an overwhelming sense of gratitude for the years she shared with her. Every time she would open the door to her house, she would think of the dog with love and gratitude. (I think maybe there is part of me that wants to apply this to M to, but not at the moment—that wasn’t where I meant to go...). I’m tearing up just thinking of it. Anyway, sending you all the hugs and best memories of your pup and feelings of gratitude for the time you had together.
Sage, do you think he would do mediation? If you are not super knowlegable about your rights and the likely outcome of a D trial, you might get confused if you are directly negotiating with MLCilio.
You could also have a consult with an organization that helps women navigate legal rights. I forgot where you live, if I ever knew it, but in my city there are a bunch of them. I have gotten three great consults over the loooooong years of my D nightmare and they really helped me each time with a trajectory I needed to figure out. One time they set me up with a counseling session and gave me two bags of groceries!
The other thing you can do is post specific questions here. Between the fifty of us, we may know the answer.
You are a strong woman to be able to grieve a little WITH your H about your loyal dogfriend even when that dogfriend was such a symbol of the union that your wasband stomped upon while asking you to watch (as per my previous post!).
From my household of D, S and dog and cat to yours, hugs and empathy.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Just reviewed and remembered you have four young children and a joint business. No way should you be negotiating this with him without legal advice. There’s just far too many things to be considered.
Will one of you buy the other out of the business? Four small children is a lot of child support (and a boatload of childcare expenses if you were to take a job). What about college expenses when the children are older? Is there a family home? Do you have accurate financial records on your business? (Many women have had to get forensic accountants to find where the money is hidden). With four small children, how much of the actual work of the business have you been doing? Does it have resale value?
Also you said: “ H has completely unrealistic expectations of what a D is going to do to him (us) financially. This really concerns me because we have the potential to D amicably or collaboratively, but the only way he is going to avoid those huge consequences is if I walk away with nothing (totally unrealistic, not going to happen). So I worry that his lack of understanding is going to create huge conflict when he realizes the truth and he will blame it on me and things will get ugly. We have crossed this bridge a few times over the last 6 months where he has an unrealistic idea in his head of how things are going to unfold and then is shocked when they unfold according to common sense consequences. ”
Negotiating with him without the benefit of a lawyer telling him that what he expects is unreasonable and no judge in the land would give him that is unlikely to be helpful. I would have a private consultation with a divorce attorney - without letting your H know about it - and get a clear picture of what you can expect to get.
Also, give us some (general, non-identifying) information on the financials here and we can probably offer some advice. What kind of joint business is this? Is it a joint business because your name is on it for tax purposes or do/did you have a significant hand in building/running it? Does it have resale value? What job skills/qualifications do you have? What could you earn on your own? Does it make a lot of money or is it just barely paying the expenses of a single household and unlikely to cover the expenses of two? Are there assets, like equity in your home or equipment owned by the company? Are there employees? Do I remember correctly that there was something hunky about you being paid a salary even though you did little work as some kind of tax dodge?
Get copies of the business returns and your tax returns, the business accounts, statements on any retirement accounts or pensions, and bring that information with you to your attorneys visit.
Knowledge is power. And if the finances are not going to be enough to support two households, you need to start figuring out how to address that long term.
Most likely he wants to negotiate yourselves so he can cheat you out of what is rightfully yours. Find out your rights and where the money is.
Also don’t forget life insurance in him sufficient to cover child support until the kids are grown and spousal support.
My ex-wife has a policy on me with her as the irrevocable beneficiary more than sufficient to cover the support payments if I get bumped off. I was annoyed at the "irrevocable" part but that seems to be standard stuff and also at the fact that I have to pay for the policy.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Everything that KML said! And if you don't believe her, read my threads. I am the poster child for all those things, including the shared business, and look what happened to me and is still happening! And I HAD lawyers but they were terrible, and my judge is terrible, so you have to be prepared to understand everything you are entitled to, even if it's to know what you are secretly willing to give up for the sake of peace. Getting any interim agreement in place is good because then you can establish status quo and ask to keep it til the kids are in college.
My dad also told me, based on his D from my MLC mom, that he got very good advice from his lawyer at the time. Cut all ties, leave nothing open. For my dad that meant giving her a credit for alimony and child support on her share of the house, so that after their D, they had no cause to have any financial discussion ever again.
Last edited by Gerda; 01/26/2103:26 PM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Conversely, I had to pay for the policy on my ex-husband (which, in a way, was good so that there would be no risk of him letting the payments lapse) and he made me reduce our existing policy by half (so I couldn’t “profit” from his untimely death lol). I seriously think he was projecting - if it had crossed his mind to bump me off to get out of paying alimony, maybe he thought it would cross my mind to bump him off for the insurance money???
Sage, I had totally forgotten about the business you guys run together. Listen to kml. Get a lawyer. Honestly you may need two depending on your state and the size of your circuit court system, the business matter may become a civil litigation in the realm of contractual obligations and such. I'm not sure how profitable the business is and how hands on either of you are in it. If there are other partners or employees it could get really messy. Find a good, honest and available divorce L. They will let you know if the business end is something they can handle or not, or if it's something worth dealing with out side of but in conjunction with the divorce proceedings. I know you live in a large metro area like I do so there is no court here that would handle both the business and the divorce unless it was one party buying the other out, or division of shares. You're divorce is incredibly complicated from a legal stand point. I'd offer him mediation, if he's feeling really generous, but doing this without a lawyer won't benefit either of you.
Thank you all for the suggestions and support. I have taken notes!
A little background: I have a lot of legal experience (long complicated litigation when I was with my previous company, sold a MM$ company and other experiences). I can speak legalese, unfortunately. I am surrounded by people who have my back and also have legal backgrounds (Ls, forensic accountant, mediator, guardian ad litum, among others). I had a consultation with the best divorce L in my city about a year ago and came prepared with a long list of questions relevant to my particular situation and she gave me a run down of what was reasonable to expect, etc.
I am the bookkeeper and financial person for both our personal life and our business, so I have a firm grip on our finances and access to everything. We amicably split the house and finances before H moved out. We have custody, child support and alimony, and the split of our business to figure out. Our business is in the media industry and a valuation would be very complicated. I have a rough range in my head of what buyout figure is acceptable to me. I believe that a court valuation would come within spitting distance of the same figure range.
I have roughly mapped out my future and know what I need to start my own business and become financially independent. I have financial/professional plans A, B and C figured out for myself, so I have backup for the backup should one fail.
I don't plan to ask for more than I would easily get if we took this to court.
KML, we are in a community property state and I financially supported him to build our business until it could support us and then I began working with him. It can support two households, but perhaps not also buy me out right away.
I don't know if he is fully aware of how much I contributed to our business and what it would cost to replace me and maintain the level of financial success we enjoyed. Is that something I should talk to him about? He is very sensitive about 'starting this business all on his own' (ha) and I know it's an ego thing for him, but I also have a vested interest in his success because I need support and alimony until I am able to be financially solvent. What would you guys do?
I will definitely have everything reviewed before I sign a thing. In the meantime, all the suggestions, experiences and thoughts are really helpful to me, so keep them coming!
I think where I am at in this moment is to start negotiating between us in good faith. It is complicated enough to warrant us both working with Ls (and we will have Ls review everything), but not so complicated that we can't at least start the process on our own. If we can't get to a reasonable conclusion on our own, we agreed that we would take it to mediation, then collaborative, then litigation. H has way more to lose than I do should this escalate to the next level(s). I hear everyone's concerns, I really do! And I am grateful for all the advice.
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