Courage

[devvo]

There were a number of times you said you didn't want to correct a 'prevarication' or explore an untruth during that session because it would get messy. Isn't that the whole point of being there?

Whilst I was gobsmacked at her preference for paying extortionate interest on maxed out credit cards, I was truly mystified as to why you don't want to know how much S has been able to save since she's been with you. If finances truly are a bone of contention, why don't you want to see the full, true picture?

The moaning about the house made me laugh out loud. Seriously? Her sense of entitlement is truly spectacular.

As for your homework, I agree that it's an invitation to look into you, and what you truly want. That's what I'd expect a counsellor who has tagged a participant as a 'people pleaser' to do. I think she's planning on unveiling the 'real Andrew' over the course of the counselling. S is going to get the choice then to accept you as you are or to agree that things just can't work. What do you hope it to be?

[kml]

It's not really S's choice, is it? If left up to S she would manipulate and badger Andrew into extraordinary debt, fill his house to the rafters with junk, then move on with another guy. Seems to be her pattern, no?

I think what you need to look at Andrew, is that this is not going to work. I understand that you want to be fair and give her a chance to step up to the plate but NOTHING about her responses in therapy hint that she's capable. Sure, she might cook you dinner tonight and she might even make a feeble attempt at cleaning up. But without serious professional help addressing her hoarding - and a WILLINGNESS to get help which she lacks - nothing is going to fundamentally change. Nor is her approach to finances likely to ever be compatible with yours.

[kml]

And btw - I'd suggest you just drop a line to the counselor and tell her "I don't know why I couldn't bring myself to say the word in counseling, but we are talking about hoarding here, not just sloppy housekeeping."

[kml]

(Pretty sure that if the therapist understood it was a hoarding situation, she would also be realizing that Marie Kondo ain't gonna fix this.)

[AndrewP]

I did mention hoarding prominently on the intake form.

She seemed to be watching for a reaction to her suggestions. And what she got was textbook hoarding speak. As a professional I would imagine that she would prefer her own diagnosis.

It's going to be a difficult time of things. Walking the path where I am true to my own moral code where I am looking for a mutual respectful decision on what's going to happen may not be possible. And that bothers me.

As DejaVu pointed out as well, my inability to act is undoubtedly doing more harm than good. But I also recognize that I don't know everything and just because I am unable to see a path to a happy future with S doesn't preclude one from existing. But I am unable to find it, just like when we were dating and things just got shoved along.

That is perhaps where I need step back to. Recognizing that I don't see the path and asking for directions either to one destination or another. Recognizing that one answer may indeed be "You can't get there from here"

[kml]

Well, what are her actions showing you? Did you come home to a home cooked meal and clear signs of her working on cleaning or decluttering?

Seriously - what would a path to a happy future together look like? To me, it seems that this would require:

- She admits she has a hoarding problem and seeks professional help for that.
- She is SUCCESSFUL with that professional help (a big giant IF)
- She changes a lifetime of attitudes around money to become a responsible adult.
There may be many other things that you both could do to arrive at that destination but without these three things NONE of the rest really matters.

And as for HER happiness - she likely thinks that she would be much happier with somebody who is willing to live with her hoarding and spend their way into bankruptcy with her, than with someone who is responsibly thinking about her financial security in the future. WE may think that's stupid, but that may be the way her mind operates - in which case, she's never gonna be happy with you either.

[bttrfly]

In asking later it turned out that S had only seen her once or twice and it was around when we started dating. I had the impression that she'd been seeing this person for years but like many things, the reality is a lot thinner than the story-line.

red flag #1

It was pretty plain to me that the counselor believed the same things about S that I did when we were first dating. A hard-working Single Mom who is doing the best she can. An entrepreneur. A sensitive person who is very spiritual and can see the "inner truth" about people. I think a some of this got tossed out by the end of the session but certainly not all.

red flag #2

I did my best to keep my mouth shut and listen and try to absorb things. I also tried to make sure that my core issues with household contributions and hoarding were heard.

Good. I know that was hard. I'm proud of you.

The counselor had a standard list of couples problems. We hit pay dirt on communication and finances and perhaps on substance abuse.

S said that she didn't take anything but then accepted the correction that she regularly smokes marijuana which caused a large raised eyebrow from the therapist. Prevarication that it "helps her sleep" and that she doesn't do it too often was given.

Red flag #3 to def con 3:
Well. Now. There's a little tidbit you've been keeping close to the vest. S is self deluded so I would really, REALLY explore "she doesn't do it too often" to dig into what the actual reality of that is. Regularly smoking and not too often are pretty far apart. Denial about that is curious to me, as it could point to a bigger underlying problem, which will affect you far more than you realize. Plenty of people indulge from time to time. Those are people whose indulgences do not have a serious negative impact on their lives or the lives of those around them. She exhibits some classic "stoner" traits: sloth, laziness, lack of motivation or ambition, unemployability, etc. The hoarding of junk food. This is not what a casual pot smoker exhibits. I stand by my prior suggestion of checking out some zoom Alanon meetings. See if anything resonates with you.

On communication, it was her opinion that I am over-reacting to what I feel are smack-downs and that it points to some deep-seated problems from my youth. I'm willing to give her that one. S went into some detail on how I have a very selective memory and that she tells me lots of things that I forget or ignore. What she feels are just "conversations" I am taking as "fights" and "arguments".

Since I am largely unimpressed or concerned with anything S says at this point, since she would tell you snow is purple if it suited her, I almost deleted that sentence. I chose to leave it in in case there actually might be something there worth examining to uncover these deep-seated problems from your youth. This is an opportunity, Andrew, for you to uncover those more thoroughly and do some real healing work for yourself, separate from this, or any, relationship. I hope you see this opportunity and use it to your advantage.

S asserted that she is indeed open about finances and is contributing what she can and that her income had gone down - she threw out a number I don't believe but wasn't willing to argue.

I was asked if I needed to see her bank accounts and said that no - I didn't need to see them and that I felt it necessary to trust what I was told. S said that she has shown me her "budget book" which to me reads that she's setting money aside which other evidence points to. I see no benefit though in digging into that muck. Either she's being honest, or she's not. It shouldn't require scrutiny and I refuse to walk down that path of policing the truth.

Def con 2:
Really? Your refusal to "walk down that path of policing the truth" confuses me greatly. You know she's got $3k at least socked away. You don't want to rat her out on it (your own untruth) ... yet don't take the opportunity to truly bring it out into the open???? How do you expect money issues to be resolved if there isn't 100% transparency on both sides? I think you didn't want to have to deal with it, even though that was the perfect opportunity to do so in a controlled environment with suggestions of how to improve communication around it. How committed are you to this exercise of couple's therapy? You can re-visit this in a future session and I certainly hope you do so.

S for her part painted me as being overly complicated with finances, went on about charts and graphs and spreadsheets (I use a commercial program YNAB) and that she doesn't understand how it's possible to budget and then not spend everything. She also said that she was upset about the fact that I insist on paying down my credit card every month, something she doesn't understand the need to do. She said that she's trying and that the systems I use make sense but that she's not embraced them.

Honestly - I don't see this issue ever getting resolved between you.

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S said that she upset at being painted as taking advantage of me. She pointed out that if she was looking at taking advantage of someone that she would have stayed with #3 as he makes "lots of money" despite going bankrupt twice.

It would be very, very interesting to see if #3's financial picture improved post relationship with S. Too easy to say he went bankrupt twice on his own. She was a willing and able participant, I'm sure.

The therapist supported her in that echoing what was my own original impression - that S would rather live in a cardboard box than be in that situation.

I'm glad though that that comment and impression that I have that I did say was being reinforced by my friends was heard.

And yet, for all her protestations of living in a cardboard box rather than taking advantage of someone aside - the facts on the ground belie that statement. Her actions in hiding money belie that statement. A simple trip to the cafe resulting in your spending $4 on yourself and several times that on her belies that statement. Do you see where I'm going with this???

For background the therapist asked how long it had been since our last relationship. I said 4 years + and S said 7. That caused a bit of a jaw drop from me and I interjected that she had had an attempted reconciliation for several months and there were lots of pictures around of them having been a couple. S didn't have much of an answer to that other than to say that they were "just dating". The therapist asked about her divorce and got a bunch of noise and prevaricating.

DEF CON 1, Nuclear alarm sirens screaming into the airwaves and over the inter webs ...

Andrew, S was not the only one prevaricating here. You were most certainly in a relationship with someone just prior to getting together with S ... Why has no one else bothered to point this out? What about B???? She LIVED WITH YOU! She moved in quickly and you claimed to love each other. Come on Andrew, this is not being disingenuous, this is being actually disrespectful to your relationship with B and also harmful to YOU, because frankly it speaks to YOUR patterns in relationship, which are just as important, if not more so, than S's. More so because we are all invested in you, not S, and if you are ever to have a healthy relationship WITH YOURSELF (never mind anyone else) you need to understand your patterns and change what doesn't work!!!!

I'm thoroughly gobsmacked by the fact that you left B out. Forget about S's lies. Focus on your own.

S dredged up quite a number of things that bother her. The house is a dump and needs a huge amount of fixing which I'm refusing to do. The back porch is falling down, the kitchen floor is peeling, there's no insulation and I have no interest in replacing the windows. She was quite animated about how crappy of a place this was.

"Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya".

So this home, that was your pride and joy, is a dump ... she's living there FREE, storing her copious amounts of stuff FREE, dumping responsibility for her pets on you, and even her responsibilities for her kids on you where and when she can (driving her S18 about, etc). That's beyond cheek, in my book - them's fighting words.

A big thing for her was that she has no separate space and started crying describing how she needs to carry her piles of paper from room to room seeking a place to "work". As an aside she only briefly got such a space at her apartment, she did get a front room from a friend for her "store" but never actually opened it but rather used it as a place to get away to. She had been planning on using the room that S18 has as "her space" but then he moved in. She is upset that she has "nothing" and I have a fixed desk, chalkboard, and bulletin board.

IT'S YOUR HOME.
SHE MOVED IN.
YOU ARE GAINFULLY EMPLOYED, AND THE $$$ YOU EARN PUTS FOOD IN HER AND HER KIDS' (AND PROBABLY PETS') MOUTHS.
THIS MAKES ME APOPLECTIC.

The therapist asked about her business and got the "I've been really busy and then Andrew told me to put all this stuff in the front porch which isn't heated and blah de blah de blah." and then the crying started (yes).

The is no "business" she is a charlatan, delusional and a discredit to the very real, gifted healers who work hard to make a difference in this world.

We were running out of time (had actually gone over time) when I finally was able to mention that one of the things I struggle a lot with is the sheer volume of "stuff" that showed up here. The therapist asked if there was stuff in storage and when S said no, I corrected her that there was and that a literal truck-load had arrived from her former partner's place. She minimized that. It seems that her former apartment is now 2,700 square feet and not the 2,000 that she had said. I'd have to measure it but it probably was about 1,500.

I gave a specific example of a doll-house which hasn't been played with in probably 15 years and is in the basement. S stated first that it was actively being played with and then had to walk that back but it was pretty obvious that holding on to "stuff" was an issue that the therapist pursued. I also expressed concerns that there was going to be an incoming wave of stuff from S's Dad's house which got me a confused look from S and an initial denial. Then digging a bit deeper she started crying about how they had such nice stuff and she'd spent her life living with rejects from the land-fill and just wanted to have nice stuff for a change. When prompted about giving up some of the stuff she had to make room, she was confused and pushed back on that.

So - the hoarder issue, while not specifically called that is out there.

Good. Miss Hoarder McHoardypants needs to be exposed.

I was also able to talk about this within the context of being suddenly overwhelmed by people and stuff and how that caused me so much stress and upset. I believe that was heard by both S and the therapist. It seemed to be a bit of an eye opener to S.

I bolded the part that made my eyebrow go waaaaay up into my hairline but quoted the entire piece for context ... Why. Is. This.. An. Eye. Opener. To. Her. When. You've. Been. Talking. About. It. FOREVER? Yes, I am actively grinding my teeth as I typed that.

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I was able to talk about how timelines had been compressed and that I was bewildered on how everything had happened so fast. How when pushed on S wanting to help and support me I proposed 8 months ahead of plan. How the move-in was similarly rushed. I talked about how I had had a vision of the happy life I wanted but that I had had no clue how to achieve it and how it all seemed to be suddenly pushed and "happen" and that I was very confused and overwhelmed about the whole thing.

How much richer this picture would have been had the therapist known about B, your relationship, recent breakup, etc and how swiftly S moved in on you. Bring it up next session, is my suggestion.

The therapist identified me (correctly I think) as a "people pleaser". I do try to make sure everyone is safe and cared for which is how she described it. To me, that's a good thing.

It most certainly, absolutely, unequivocally is NOT a "good thing" and frankly, does no one any good. Here's a valuable homework assignment for you Andrew - do a quick internet search on the term "people pleaser" ... learn what it really means and what the unintended consequences of people pleasing are to the people pleaser and those around him/her.

I also used the phrase that I had "made a promise" as a reason to stick it out and work on it. S has heard this before and rejected it - for the reasons that all the people here have as well. The therapist also rejected this as a valid reason. So that's out there too - that the main reason I'm still trying is because of a sense of responsibility and duty. Which nobody is happy about.

and only you accept. I'd take a look at that as well. Why are you the only person who accepts this? What are you getting out of it, really? Dig deeper.

I asked for help on how I could just "suck it up" and accept things as they are. Again, both S and the therapist vigorously rejected this as the wrong attitude.

Finally, something I agree with S on - shocking, I know.

And yes - I know that this has all been talked about here and similarly rejected. I felt that it was important to bring my own perspective of how I've been unsuccessfully attempting to cope.

It took some effort to change topics but I was also able to talk about how this has affected my health. The idea that my chest pains are panic attacks was supported by both S and the therapist. The therapist suggested that I work on grounding techniques and such.

good.

I was also able to talk about how I had so much pride and was happy before. The therapist encouraged me to try to rediscover the things that gave me Joy - like walking. Pride she had more troubles with. Because a lot of my self-identity is wrapped up in my pride of my contributions to the community, my work, and how I was able to keep my home up she challenged me on that. The assigned homework is to consider how I would live if I was a homeless person with no job and no way to contribute - sort of a "Tom Hanks / Castaway" thing. I joked that Wilson would be well cared for and polished.

I have no idea how I will imagine this and told both the therapist and S that they were asking me to change the very definition of who I am and of the person I like. That I would look at this closely and seriously but that I didn't have any confidence that at 56 that I would so fundamentally redefine myself.

I think, Andrew, the point is simply this: if you had nothing of material value to contribute, what then would you do? I think it's a valuable exercise in stripping down to basics your core values and competencies and is worth an effort on your part.

S's homework is to start checking out organization tips including two of my favourites - Fly Lady and Marie Kondo. S has seen some of Marie Kondo and has rejected that approach to "stuff" previously. Fly Lady is great but it requires a commitment. She was also told that if one thing comes in that one thing goes out - a policy I follow carefully for myself. She was very unhappy about that and I believe has rejected that as well.

Come on. Seriously? This woman is going to therapy because it's easier than making the actual changes necessary to make this relationship work. This is patently obvious to me. I'm sorry.

The therapist was surprised at the low frequency of our sex life and when I mentioned that S often had back pain she poo-pood that as no good reason and admonished us to make some booty. S then pushed back that there were also kids in the house.

Presumably there were always kids in the house previously which led to there being more kids in the house. With the absolute neglect (benign or otherwise) that she exhibits towards her children this is the flimsiest of excuses, to say the least.

-----------

On the way home I made a point about talking about my Dad and how he was a kind soul who I admired but how he was pushed around and taken advantage of - in one case by a hoarder who was largely responsible for the ending of his moderately successful real estate brokerage. I tried to present this as just a story about someone who I missed but I'm sure that it was heard as an echo of what I see myself.

You have mentioned this so very many times I wish you would actually work with your own IC on this and what it really means to you. I think it would help you personally quite a lot.
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S came to bed fairly early and was stiff as a board and we all (including the dog who was annoyed at the lack of space) had a poor sleep.

She is very sad today it seems and upset. I can only hope that this means that she is giving things a lot of thought.

She's here for the next few days but may well go back down to her Dad's place next week to work on getting it ready for a valuation.

My bet is she leaves for there much earlier than expected.

I feel good that we had this session with the counselor and that I feel that I got heard. As I told S though - I'm not holding out any hope of fundamentally changing who I am - letting go of what was called "externalities" that are part of my identity and pride in self. I can't even imagine what that would be like but I will try to figure out what that means and what it would mean for me.

I don't think that's what the exercise was about. Your resistance to this I think makes this worth exploring further. Just why are you so resistant to it?

I do quite like myself as I am and am very reluctant to give up on the person who I found post-divorce. And changing that - just to make a partner happy - means that I'm not the right person for that partner I feel.

Correct, but that's not why you are so resistant to it, I'd bet.

I believe the many differences between you are not resolvable. Take this opportunity to dig deeper, learn more about yourself and your patterns in relationships and do some real healing so that when you and your two cats get together you'll be much happier and more satisfied with your life, enough maybe to actually include a lovely, willing partner who is truly available to meet you in a way you not only want but deserve.

[job]

Andrew,

I am right there 100% w/all of the posters. One thing that continues to bug me is that S has a sibling and she needs to be working w/him on their father's estate, i.e., paying the bills, cleaning the house, putting said house up for sale/rent, removing furniture, etc. She is not an only child and no matter what she tells you about having extra money later after paying father's bills...if that extra money is coming from the estimate, she better darn well work w/her brother or he may very well have a say in taking her to court over this stuff. But, S may not even be thinking about all of that.

Actions speak louder than words and until she's sat down, gone through all of that stuff and either donated items to charity or taken stuff to the dump, it's just going to continue to pile up and collect dust.

As for your home, your salary is currently paying your xw off, taking not only care of you, but groceries for 4, utilities, etc., but the upkeep on your car as well. Money doesn't stretch as far as it use to. You can't just drop a bunch of money on home repairs and/or take out a loan and put all of that on a charge card. Home repairs cost big bucks. As I stated earlier, she knew what your house was like and she could have said "no" and not moved in. Seriously, she reminds me of "B" wanting to purchase another home w/you and moving out of your current one. I don't get these two women at all. They both had been in your home and knew what the place was like. S's complaints need to be taken w/a grain of salt. I seriously would have told her "there's the door, don't let it hit you on the @ss when leaving".

Look, I'm going to be brutally honest here...she needs to go. S18 may want to stay w/you since he's got issues w/his mother, but S, S13 and all of those animals need to go as well as all of that stuff she brought w/her. If she stays, all of the stuff that is not being used and currently boxed up needs to go to a storage facility and yes, Andrew, she pays the monthly rental fee. It is time to wake S up and give her a good taste of reality and if she doesn't like it, she can leave.

I am sorry that she pursued you and put the pressure on you about everything. But the one thing that I am really sorry about...that she moved in when she did. It's true that you don't really get to know someone until you live together....but you had a preview of what she was like when she lived in the other place. She talks a good game, doesn't accept blame for much of anything and yet has the nerve to point fingers at you. She's not going to change because she is so use to living the way she is and hoarding is an illness and very difficult to overcome, if ever. She is a spoiled woman who is selfish and wants everything her way or no way.

If she continues to sulk...leave her be. She'll either get over it or she will fester...but whatever she does or doesn't do, you have given this relationship your all...now it's time for her to sh!t or get off the pot. Remember...actions speak louder than words.

[exquisitetobe]

((( Andrew )))

How i wish things were different...

S makes me angry and i am not the one living with her
She is in NO position to complain about YOUR HOME, YOUR WAY OF LIVING.
She is the one who wanted this sooooo quickly.

What is keeping her from earning a salary and fix this place she now calls " A DUMP ?? "
She has alot of nerves. She is FULL OF EXCUSES and will never GROW-UP.

With everything you have learned about her, do you really believe that the ex who had 2 bankrupty did so without S' s
involvement? To fulfill her demands and lack of responsabilities or to cut strings on providing for her and her crue?

She cannot accept responsabilities nor consequences for her choices and NON-ACTIONS!!
i said it before, she is a victim ( poor little me ) and manipulate to make everyone around her do everything for her. If they no longer do, she moves on to the next.. and the next.. and the next..
How many marriages so far? How many dads to her kids? How many jobs? Does she even have a work experience?

Time for S to grow-up and face the consequences of HER OWN!!!!!

But sadly, i don' t believe it will happen because there are good people out there and she knows how to find them and infiltrate herself in...

As for the transparency of the finance: tell me again how you discovered her HIDDEN STASH? in my opinion, that " stash" is as much yours as it is hers. While YOU PAY, SHE SAVES??? NO NO NO
YOU BOTH PAY AND YOU BOTH SAVE..

What kind of relationship is this?
Get out Andrew.. You need to set the record straight. She will be just fine. She knows how to play the game.

[OwnIt]

Hello Andrew,

I've had to step away because of my situation but have been following along. I'm sorry that you are where you are and sorry that it feels so difficult to get out. I know first-hand the pain that comes from waiting for someone else to call the end to it. In my case it has dragged on a very long time, and I think that we kid ourselves that waiting makes it easier or less painful, it doesn't, just more complicated. What you have described is not a life partner, it is someone who knows how to work it to get by. And while in some situations that could be admirable, the way it is being executed here is not. Having lived through the times I have, I continue to value peace above all else. I suspect that you realize now the value of the peace you had, but it is not too late to reclaim it. Regardless of what you do, and when you do it, please know that there are those who care about you so very much and long for the days of your regular updates filled with the wonderful details of a quiet and quaint life lived on one's own terms.