Courage

[AndrewP]

Let's see if we can make this thread last a bit longer than the last two.

Last thread - And now another special feature
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2906212&page=1

[LION]
If I were King of the Forest
Not queen, not duke, not prince
My regal robes of the forest
Would be satin, not cotton, not chintz

I'd command each thing, be it fish or fowl
With a ruff and a ruff and a royal growl - woof
As I'd click my heel, all the trees would kneel!
And the mountains bow and the bulls kowtow!
And the sparrow would take wing
If I, if I, were King!

Each rabbit would show respect to me
The chipmunks genuflect to me
Though my tail would lash, I would show compash
For every underling!
If I, If I, were King!
Just King!

[DOROTHY, SCARECROW, & TIN MAN]
Each rabbit would show respect to him
The chipmunks genuflect to him

[SCARECROW]
And his wife would be queen of the mane

[LION]
And I'll be monarch
Of all I survey

Monarch
Of all I survey

Mo--na-a-a--a-arch
Ah, shucks

Monarch
Of all I survey!

[DOROTHY]
Your Majesty, If you were King, you wouldn't be afraid of anything?

[LION]
Not nobody, not nohow!

[TIN MAN]
Not even a rhinocerous?

[LION]
Imposserous!

[DOROTHY]
How about a hippopotamus?


[LION]
Why, I'd trash him from top to bottomamus!

[DOROTHY]
Supposin' you met an elephant?

[LION]
I'd wrap him up in cellophant!

[SCARECROW]
What if it were a brontosaurus?

[LION]
I'd show him who was King of the Forest!

[DOROTHY, TIN MAN, & SCARECROW]
How?

[LION]
How?
Courage! What makes a King out of a slave?
Courage! What makes the flag on the mast to wave?
Courage! What makes the elephant charge his tusk, in the misty mist or the dusky dusk?
What makes the muskrat guard his musk?
Courage! What makes the sphinx the seventh wonder?
Courage! What makes the dawn come up like thunder?
Courage! What makes the Hottentot so hot? What puts the "ape" in apricot?
What have they got that I ain't got?


[DOROTHY, TIN MAN, & SCARECROW]
Courage!

[LION]
You can say that again!

[DonH]

I'm still a wuss who can't make a decision in his own best interest / an empathic soul who doesn't wish to hurt anyone.

That may be, but how can you really expect to have a healthy R with S or anyone else of you lie to them? You were asked if you wanted S to move out and you said no. That is a lie. You are lying to S. But you are doing it under the guise of not hurting anyone. But isn’t lying to someone going to hurt them? It clearly would hurt you as you told S that you needed honesty from her. Doesn’t that need to start with honesty from you?

Sigh - this shouldn't be this hard.

No, no, it should not be - especially only a year in and less than 6 months in living together. It it’s this hard now, and knowing what you now know, is this really how you want to live the rest of your life? You could very easily live another 20 or 25 years. It would not be too far fetched to live another 30 or even 35 years into your 90s. Is this really how you want to live it?

You want her to be the bad guy here. You want her to do what you for whatever reason cannot or will not. Again, is that what you call, “being an empathic soul who doesn’t hurt anyone?” Are you even being fair to S? I’d be far more upset and hurt if my partner gaslit me be refusing to acknowledge what I was nearly certain was true. I’m pretty sure that’s not being empathic or honest - it’s making yourself feel better, at S’s expense.

[Ginger1]

Don made an excellent post. All that he said.

You aren’t being fair to her. You aren’t protecting her feelings. You are protecting your own.

A woman knows. And you keep lying and delaying the inevitable and in her gut she knows you don’t want her there anymore.

Don’t go on the premise of thinking you are being an altruistic empath. You aren’t doing her any favors. You are only going to cause her more pain.

Time to really put your big boy pants on and stop lying and be completely honest.

[Westo]

One day S may end up on Newcomers.

Her relationship has ended, but she’s confused. She can’t understand...she asked her man if he wanted her to leave and he said no.

Heck, he even told her he will miss her smooches when she’s not there.

I don’t have much time for S, but she deserves the truth.

You told us that your ex sent you a loving birthday card/valentines/Christmas, can’t remember which and still held hands with you just before she left.

You, I and everyone else here understands the confusion of these mixed messages.

It’s cruel Andrew....please stop sending them.

[AndrewP]

I've been giving this a lot of thought lately. Now we could call this self-justification if we want - the Wikipedia article on the phrase is helpful to me as it does describe one view of how I'm struggling with all of this and does slant it from a point of view that I think is important for me to explore. It's said that every biography has an obvious hero and I need to keep careful watch on myself to ensure that I'm not in fact a villain which I certainly feel like.

One option which appears to be the consensus both here and with my friends was to drop it on her like a bomb and tell her "don't let the door hit ya where the Good Lord split ya".

Instead I've struggled with this, "knowing" what the right choice for me is. Talked to S about that I'm unhappy. We've fought and argued and hugged and cried together. Said that I want to explore ways to see if this could work and followed through on that. Knowing that I need to do a lot more and follow through on enunciating how and why I am unhappy. Giving her a chance to see if this is working for her too.

I'm not cheating. I'm not hiding anything. I'm not running off for wild adventures (spatula city is too far under current conditions).

A favourite author who I quote probably far too often usually has a line that helps form my thoughts

Something Vimes had learned as a young guard drifted up from memory. If you have to look along the shaft of an arrow from the wrong end, if a man has you entirely at his mercy, then hope like hell that man is an evil man. Because the evil like power, power over people, and they want to see you in fear. They want you to know you're going to die. So they'll talk. They'll gloat.

They'll watch you squirm. They'll put off the moment of murder like another man will put off a good cigar.

So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word.

It was a decently good day yesterday. S and I went over the budget and she did expose a bit that she has indeed been setting money aside. Her justification was a bit thin but "whatever". I didn't ask for details and she didn't give any - just that there might be some more money out there if needed.

I did make it clear how much money was coming in, how much was budgeted and exactly what the shortfall was - which is a chunk less than her monthly surplus.

She talked about the settling of her Dad's estate. He had a decent savings account so there's no worry about short term bills. S did comment on how things are now so very uncertain for her and that she doesn't know if for example she should get rid of her Dad's couch because she might need one. But in a more matter-of-fact tone which I just accepted as "yes - this is our reality currently". She does go into a spiral because she is pretty sure that her portion of the estate is not enough to buy a house on her own. According to my math though it would be about 12 years of rent money on a decent apartment if she chose to go that route. We talked about her loan and she still doesn't understand how I think about debt. To her credit cards are things that carry a balance and you budget the payments. Instead I pull money out of savings, the chequing overdraft and carry no credit card debt. I think she "sort-of" gets it especially now that she herself has a fully paid of credit card that is remaining paid off.

We also talked about how we've been buying groceries that we don't need. She agreed that she has a "scarcity" mentality but tries to justify that by saying that we need to have enough food for over a month in the house. My counter to that is that we shouldn't own any food that isn't used within 3 months. We did both agree - I had to nudge - to both reduce our "pocket money" fairly substantially. I know that I've been running a surplus and she's been using her's as a separate savings account I think rather than to cover regular out of pocket expenses.

It is perhaps telling that her first concern isn't so much with her heart but with her living conditions and the need for a couch. A much more practical perspective than might be imagined if you think too much about it that may be based on her past experience or might be just a closer view of the reality of the person she actually is rather than the person she thinks she is.

I made a roast pork loin for dinner with butternut squash and a gluten-free pumpkin loaf made with one of the decorative pumpkins we had which was well appreciated.

Busy week this week. S is off shortly for a movie shoot which she's uncomfortable about because it does take her into the City. She's got perhaps 2 lines on some independent thing that her ex-h and daughter are in. I expect that they needed another body and unilaterally decided that she would do it. She's going to go from there to her Dad's place where she has a meeting with the lawyer. She'll probably be back sometime on Wednesday, baby-sitting her grandson on Thursday. S13 might be coming back on Wednesday too. That's rather up in the air.

I have my flu shot and a doctor's appointment today where he's going to review the results of my pulmonary test. We have a layer of snow on the ground and so it's time to put out the bird feeder again. I still get a lot of chest pain regularly that mimics what I believe angina pain to be so hopefully we can get some actual answers.

Thanks all for the kicking and caring.

[Dawn70]

I have started and deleted this post several times now because I kept starting with something along the lines of "I don't want to pile on and be negative", but then that is exactly what I'm doing so I might as well own it. I agree with what everyone said before me. Andrew, you know you are ready to end this R and you do not want to be the "bad guy" and actually pull the trigger so to speak, so you are waiting for S to do it for you. Honey, she GAVE YOU the out and you STILL DIDN'T TAKE IT. You say she straight up asked if you wanted her to move out and you "prevaricated". Man, if that isn't a $10 word for lied I don't know what is.

I get it, Andrew...you don't want to hurt her, but you say yourself that it must hurt her knowing that you had an enjoyable time when she was out of the house. So, you tell me, which hurt is worse: being honest and both of you hurting now because you know the relationship is ending or pretending that you are going to work on it and that things will somehow miraculously get better because she keeps SAYING she'll change (without offering any actual action to implement change) and then ending it a few months down the road for the same reasons that you want to end it now, but are too scared to?

What Westo said above really stuck a chord with me: "I don't have much time for S, but she deserves the truth." Ditto Westo! I couldn't have said it better. I'm not a mean or cruel person so I don't like to see people hurt just for the sake of hurting them, but Andrew, S is a manipulator. She has you right where she wants you and you both know it. She is playing a game with you and I guarantee you she is better at it than you are. She asked you if you wanted her to leave because she knew you wouldn't say yes to her face. She also knows, because it has happened before, that she could make promises of doing better without actually doing a darn thing and you would fall in line.

The other thing that stood out to me in both of your posts was how casual she is in both using you and defying your wishes. She came home late and had a big order at the café to pick up. Why didn't she stop and get it? What if there hadn't been money in the jar? She expected you to pay for it, so that is why she had you pick it up. The McDonalds thing....not sure when that happened without going back to look, but she and S18 wanted it and despite the fact that you don't eat McDonalds, you went and picked it up and likely paid for that as well. She couldn't go do it herself? Andrew, I live in a VERY small, rural town and there are no McDonalds, but the town where I work, which is a little larger, but still rather small by most standards, has TWO McDonalds. My point is that, one might assume there is at least one somewhere near you that she could have easily driven herself to. And, if she is so high on being gluten free and all that, how is she eating McDonalds anyway? I dare say that while there may be a few gluten-free options, if that were an issue for me, McDonalds would not be my go to. The carpet shampooer thing....come on now, seriously? She has no money, relies on you to pay for everything, doesn't contribute her fair share to the bills, even based on whatever budgeting you all did in the beginning and hides her money from you and now all of a sudden she goes and buys a shampooer? That seems like a very odd purchase to me, particularly when you say at one point that she brought home shoes from her dad's because S18 is in desperate need. Sparky and I don't have a lot of money, but I can assure you that if given the choice between a shampooer and someone needing a pair of shoes, we would definitely buy the shoes first. Doesn't that scream bad with money, impulsive, non-practical? I mean, sure, it will be nice to have, but really, how often will it be used? And, someone pointed out on your last thread before it closed (don't remember who...sorry) that the machine won't use itself, but if S is so tired, sore, etc. that she can't even wash dishes and put food away, how is she going to move furniture around and shampoo a rug. Those machines are a little heavy and cumbersome to operate. They don't just push easily like a vacuum. And, while I'm on this roll, you say she got upset about your complaining about her and her kids not doing anything. Who are you complaining to that is telling her you are complaining? You need to pick different confidantes if your current ones are running and telling her everything you said. And, as someone else pointed out, if she doesn't like your complaints, maybe she should do something to fix that. But, that would require ACTIONS and we know that she is a woman of words and not actions.

Andrew, honestly, reading your recent posts (and I'm not just talking about the ones from this weekend) absolutely break my heart for you. You are a kind, caring, loving, generous man. The light, breezy, humorous Andrew is slipping away and you are losing yourself in this chaos that S brings. Please listen to what everyone is saying and take it to heart. I get that it isn't easy and you don't want to hurt S but in not being honest with her, you may hurt her even more in the long run. You cannot sustain the life you have now. Something has to give, Andrew...something besides you!

[job]

Andrew,

I am glad you had a nice chat w/S concerning the bills, money, etc. However, I think she may have listened then, but it also may now have gone out the other ear. From what you written over the last few months, I just get the impression that these types of talks do not "stick" w/her. In fact, I think she becomes "tone deaf" and out the other ear once you have aired your concerns. You have to remember...she has lived on her own for a long time and survived on whatever she had coming in...hence, she doesn't get what you are attempting to talk to her about. She doesn't get it when it comes to shopping for food that needs to be used in a month or so. She doesn't get it that you don't hold on to things that are over and above 3 years or more. She doesn't get it that you don't bring home stuff that you aren't going to use in a period of time. She doesn't get it that you should attempt to pay off your loans and credit cards within a reasonable period of time and she is going to continue to do her impulse shopping. She just doesn't get the concept of living within a budget and you shouldn't expect someone else to pick up your tab when you order food that the golden goose doesn't eat.

Andrew, I do think that in the back of S's mind, she is planning to move, i.e., the comment about the couch. I wouldn't be at all surprised if she finds a way to work a deal w/her sibling and move into her father's home. She likes the area and the home is convenient for her and the kids. I don't see her pushing for the divorce that should have been done months ago. I just don't see her situation changing at all. In fact, it benefits her to say married, i.e., the insurance and live w/you and yes, sponge off of you until you've truly had enough or until she finds a goose that lays even bigger golden eggs.

BTW, I do hope that S is working w/her sibling on what needs to be done w/the house, the furniture, the car and the expenses. She shouldn't be doing all of this by herself. Her sibling may want some of the furniture as well as other things. She may be the executor, but she also has a sibling that should have his/her input into what needs to be done.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh today, but I am basing my opinions on what you post. You have been more than kind, considerate and patient w/her and her clan. It's time to make that list of pros and cons that I suggested a while back and then make a decision. Trust us, it's not going to get better. Sure, she'll say it will, and she will try for a wee bit, but leopards do not change their spots and she's lived like this for a very long time and some habits are very difficult to break, especially hoarding and impulsive spending.

I honestly hope that I am wrong about your situation and I will be the first to apologize if she truly manages to stay the course of change.

[kml]

I don't really understand how a chunk of money that would provide 12 years of rent is not enough to buy a home. Granted, it might not be a house, it might be a small condo somewhere, but it seems to me that there must be somewhere she could buy with that kind of money. I'm assuming rent of at least 1,000 a month, 12 years is $144,000. Not a huge amount but wouldn't that buy her a small place in some rural area? Or a big down payment on a place for her daughter with a granny flat for her? Or a place with a small mortgage payment for the rest?

Either way, she's not penniless and won't be on the streets if you break up - that's good.

I imagine, from your statement about her approach to credit, that she's not volunteering to pay off the consolidation loan?

The couch question is precisely why I said a while ago, it's not fair to HER to not let her know what you're thinking, as she has to make financial decisions based on what she thinks the future with you will be or not. She SHOULDN'T sell her dad's furniture if she's going to need it when she moves out.

[AndrewP]

For those playing along on the home game ...

Just got back from the doctor's office. My pulmonary results are fine. He wanted to listen to my lungs himself and they are fine.

He's going to have me try a steroid inhaler in case this is asthma and if that doesn't work he's going to check my GI. If that doesn't work he's thinking panic attacks. Which to be frank are a real possibility. The attacks have certainly gotten more regular and stronger in the past year and past attacks could be over-exertion or panic. High stress does seem to be a factor and has been - generally - consistent. There is a lot more stress in my life in the past year or so. Which was absolutely not the plan and I don't think we can pin this exclusively on the pandemic.

If it is panic attacks then the question comes on how to best manage that. Removing the source of panic is certainly one thing to consider. The medications for that are things that I really would rather not be involved with. In the past I've self-medicated with a cold beer and a sit in a quiet place but that's not an option any more.

I've let S know the basics and my kids know the greater detail via messages.

[kml]

Acid reflux can also cause esophageal spasm, which can feel like a heart attack.

An Apple watch or the inexpensive Kardia mobile is an easy way to check a rhythm strip for arrythmias (new slightly more expensive version of Kardia will actually do an EKG).

And yes, removing stress from your life is beneficial.