The goal of this post is to avoid misinterpreting their WAS's mixed messages resulting in actions that hurt ourselves, our WAS's, and our chances for the M.
If you're an LBS it's important that you don't assign too much meaning to signs of warmth or indecision from your WAS. One of the easiest mistakes to make is to assume other people feel and think similar to how we do. In our LBS minds it's easy to project how we feel or how we desperately want our WAS's to feel onto them. Maybe this is part of denial, we simply can't imagine things not working out so we are just waiting for the sign that shows us this is the part of the movie where everyone falls back into each others arms.
Hey, we're human, we're going to feel desperate at times and get our hopes up at times. That's fine. We just can't let it derail the road we need to walk.
WAS's are much farther gone that we think. On these forums we say the marriage is dead at BD. That maybe if you do your work and they do theirs a day might come when the two people you become reengage, but this relationship is dead.
This isn't about giving up hope. I'm 100% in favor of standing for a marriage. It's about not allowing ourselves to be strung along and fed crumbs so we end up enabling an impermissible situation.
I remember when, 90 days after BD, my XW started sending me emails that demonstrated some regret. I'd been warned and was trying very hard to be deliberate and cautious. Very hard. I waited hours before I'd respond. I'd check with the boards. I was TRYING to reign my emotions in. But when she used phrases like "She hated divorce" and "She liked the person I was becoming" and "She missed talking to me" and asking if I was seeing anyone or if I still thought about us together, I was SURE this was a big break through! She finally was seeing what I saw, that we can work this out!!!
She called me late in the night and said she was drinking a little and she missed me and our marriage and was so lonely she didn't think she could make it through. I, the white knight I was, drove over to see her because she sounded like she was in a dark place.
You all buckled up? When I got there, she freaked out because OM was sleeping upstairs in the marital bed passed out. She was depressed because he had just told her he wanted to break up with her. I'll spare you what was by FAR the worst part (for those who like pain you can dig up my old thread) but I had a chance the next day to open up her phone and I was blown away with what I saw. She had been with many different guys, and she had a different persona via text message exchange with each of them including new OMs she was lining up. She also had one with her friend talking about how "Great, now I have to push Zues away again because of yesterday..."
This isn't my thread, but I hope this example is better than a general warning. Conflicting feelings and some sadness does NOT equate to remorse and commitment to the marriage.
So, how is it that they can express genuine regret, pain, loneliness, and warmth without meaning 'let's get the band back together?' Simple. Those feelings are genuine, they just aren't commitment.
Pretend your WAS started using heroine habitually. Or started gambling away all of their money every paycheck. Do you think that they'd feel regret at times? Do you think they'd feel the pain of the consequences of their choices at times? Do you think that they'd miss their old life at times? Of course they would, but that's totally irrelevant. We know they do. The ONLY thing that matters is whether they have felt enough of those things to hit the rock bottom to where they'll actually commit 100% to changing their lives for the better. Even then it's lip service and only time will tell if their actions match their words.
So why do they do this to us? Simple. To avoid consequences.
Some is avoiding physical consequences. Maybe they want to control the speed of the breakup, like when you wade into cold water little by little. They aren't ready to be splashed yet, they're still working up to it- but they are going to do it on their time, in their way. They don't want you charging around now they have to deal with consequences like being cut off financially, or having family or mutual friends hear about their behavior, and it sure is easier to get you to agree to give them whatever they want whenever they want it when you are blinded by hope.
Some consequences they wish to avoid are emotional. So long as they string you along they aren't sacrificing their marriage for their love affair because they know they can get you back at any time, so they are just indulging themselves because they deserve to feel better. No, they don't want you back, but by knowing you are still there they don't have to deal with the sense of loss the same way they would if you moved on.
So how can they say they say they want to repair the marriage one day and then not follow through the next, you KNOW they were being genuine at the time. Hey, I'm not saying those emotions aren't real, just that they aren't the same as ongoing consistent behavior. There is something I call "Medicating with positive intent". Think of it this way. Say a friend is in an abusive relationship. Their partner just slapped them around. They call you crying and saying they can't take anymore. So what do they do? They talk to you for hours, making plans about where they will go, what they will do, and on and on. Guess what? Now they are feeling better. Empowered. Hopeful. They feel alright again...hmm...now they feel alright again, and guess what? Things aren't that bad. They do love so and so. They can get through it after all. I don't know about you but I've seen too many examples of people that truly convince themselves they are going to make a positive change because the good feelings that follow their well intended proclamation are all they really needed, no reason now to bother with all of that following through hard work stuff. It'll be ok. Right?
So what's an LBS to do?
Well, the first step is to read this like ten times and really understand it. Because while our feelings will be all over the map, we have a responsibility. If we truly love our WAS's we need to allow them to experience the consequences of their choices. This is the best chance to save the M. And if that isn't possible, consider it the last gift you give to someone you pledged your life to, ending on a positive note after all of the hurt. That gift means that when they are engaging in unhealthy choices that are destroying their lives we don't make it easy for them to keep doing it.
I'm not here to script out verbal responses to temp checks and displays of emotion, but the underlying message you need to communicate are things like this: -Your not the shoulder to cry on anymore -Getting back together isn't that simple anymore -You are firm in your boundaries and won't accept [open marriage, loveless marriage, sexless marriage, uncommitted partner, disrespect, etc] -You've told her everything you have to tell her and have nothing left to say (no R talks, never ever ever ever).
From our LBS view it seems like we're destroying our only hope. But WAS wants to have the R talk!!! If I blow them off then they'll blame me for being the one that ended it.
Hogwash. If WAS is seriously remorseful and ready to do anything and everything to work on the marriage they will let you know. They won't play games. The 'well then, that's why we can't work' card is manipulative and proof there is no lasting remorse. Any R talk that doesn't start with them going first with a list of apologies and re-commitments is just proving to her that you are willing to compromise your boundaries and remain emotionally involved with a wayward spouse. I repeat, this is hurting yourself, your WAS, and your chances of preserving your family.
In conclusion, if you are seeing signs that your spouse wants to return, post all about it here. Get it out of your system. Overreact on these forums. Tell us how it's going to work out after all, that we were wrong, that YOU KNEW your WAS, you KNEW they would fall back into your arms, that you think you are in piecing, etc, etc, etc. But please, for all that is good and holy, stay detached from them outwardly and give them time to see if they actually recommit, show true remorse, and prove it to you with consistent behavior over time. Keeping DBing and may you make it to the other side, whatever lies ahead.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
It is probably one of the best pieces of insight that I got here and every LBS should know this. The credit for this goes to AnotherStander who laid it out in plain terms when I was in the throes of my confusion. His insight really opened my eyes and I am putting it here in my words (I will try and go back later and find what AS exactly said)
Quick caveat: I know some people on the board don't like using the word 'fog' as it stands. They think it's too reductive and maybe negative to portray the WAS in that light. I am using the term 'fog' here to describe the mindset and attitude rather than saying that it is negative or not. For me it represents confusion and mental jedi mind-tricks to rationalize the situation - for both the LBS and the WAS.
The 'FOG'
Both the LBS and the WAS spend some time living in the 'fog'. The interesting thing is that this 'fog' is diametrically opposed for the LBS and the WAS.
The LBS 'fog' is all about looking at the MR and their spouse with rose-colored glasses and thinking that the MR breakdown was all their fault. If they can just reverse some of their faults quickly, or do more around the house, or spend more time with kids, or pay more attention to their spouse, the WAS will change their mind or come back. In this 'fog', the LBS can't see clearly that they were not the only one responsible for the MR breakdown, and that they were also unhappy with some things in the MR. But, in the LBS 'fog' all of this is obscured and the LBS tries to grab on to any crumbs or shreds of life from the WAS to restore the MR. Once this fog slowly starts to clear and the LBS can see that they are worthy of love, respect, and can see the MR in a more objective light. They also realize that they were unhappy and that their needs weren't being met either. As soon as this 'fog' clears, the LBS is able to take charge of their life, have more control, and realize that they will not go back into the old MR again.
On the opposing side:
The WAS 'fog' is projecting most of the blame on the LBS and rewriting MR history. During this time they can hold anger, resentment, rage etc towards the LBS. The mindset hinders their ability to take responsibility for their contributions to the breakdown of the MR and that their unhappiness is not the sole result of the actions of the LBS. Once their 'fog' starts clearing, they can see more objectively about the MR and realize their contributions to its breakdown. Whether they want to do something about that is a different story, but until this 'fog' clears, they are really hindered in seeing what they brought to the table as well. Sandi has written extensively about the WW mindset, which every LBS should read as well.
A more simpler way to describe the difference in the 'fog' is that the LBS 'internalizes' the faults and the WAS 'externalizes' the faults. I know this may sound overly simplistic and it isn't always fully true, but it is a start to at least unpacking the feelings and thoughts that accompany the 'fog' mindset.
I apologize if I have misrepresented the concept as someone else understands it. I am just sharing what I thought was very useful insight for me about the 'fog' mindset as this is all consuming in the early stages after BD.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Some longer-time posters will remember Starsky, a vet who always gave spot on and golden advice IMHO.
Something he posted a number of times (and I always remembered it) was this:
The number one mistake that many LBS's (who have a chance at reconciliation) make is letting the WAS back too soon and too easy.
What he said (and I agree) is that many situations need to have travelled pretty far before a potentially sustainable reconciliation is really possible .
The LBS needs to have taken their own journey and gained more insight into themselves as a person, parent, partner - and grown. They need to understand how their own behavior may have contributed to a marriage that broke down. They also need to learn how to live a more boundaried existence, understanding what does and doesn't work for them and being brave enough to ask for what they want and need.
They need to have experienced life beyond the marriage and have worked through their own initial desperation to save the marriage, and their possibly codependent ways. They need to know that this may go either way and they will be fine whichever way it does go.
The WAS also takes their journey and they will experience a natural and karmic unfolding of events based on their earlier choices. If they had an affair with someone, they may get to experience what a relationship is like with someone who was willing to date a married man or woman and who might be immature or broken. They get to see how their family feels about their choices, including their children. They get to experience how life actually is compared to how they thought it would be. This takes the time it takes and this can lead to what people call 'rock bottom.' When someone looks around and realizes what they have truly lost. Not just in terms of family, ties and friends, but self-respect too.
Only at this point (or similar) does a WAS start to maturely reflect on what has happened and look at their part, face damage they have caused. Not from a 'me' perspective, but from the perspective of others. And they may offer a truly sincere and regretful apology for their part and express a genuine desire to reconcile.
At this point the LBS has grown to a point that they are willing to move slowly and have a degree of self-control and a full 'other' life too. They don't jump in and they are not all in for a good while.
From all that I have seen posted, early reconciliations and quick ones really may not be good news and can lead to a looping scenario, where people find themselves back here sadly, a few years on. Much better to not waste the pain now and learn and grow from present, difficult circumstances. This we never regret - I truly believe that. If you learn and grow, this becomes a 'win' situation for you - however things may unfold.
Xx
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Something I've come to realize from what we've gone through as well: We aren't in control of everything.
I'm embarrassed to remember how arrogant I used to be; I mean, like even more than today! When I was young I saw other people's problems and somehow thought they wouldn't happen to me. I thought that I was different, special, the main character of the movie. That if I just did the right things, was clever and smart enough, played my cards right, and had a good deserving heart, things would just work out. I was the gingerbread man.
I've been humbled by all of this. I'm not more deserving or more special than anyone else. Suffering and loss won't avoid me in life just because I'm me. And most of all, I don't have everything figured out and under my control. Even if I did have it all figured out, somehow out of the billions of people on the planet I was the wise one, I could get hit by a drunk driver tomorrow and end up in the hospital. One of my children could take their own life and change mine forever. I could be falsely convicted of a sexual crime and end up in prison.
Bottom line, no matter how we play our cards we aren't in control. In our cases our partners made choices that ended our marriages and destroyed any possibility of a unified family or a lifelong partnership. No matter how special you are or how cleverly you DB'd, you couldn't prevent your XH from doing what we did. Neither could I.
Oh, it's appealing to cling to the idea that we can or could've done something differently. This idea is nice because we get to cling to the illusion that we are in control, that if we just figure out the right things to do or say we can save our M, get our WAS back, or bounce back and learn from this to find the perfect new R and quench our every desire.
But this just doesn't work. This all comes from a place of attachment. We are so attached to what we want that we can't bear to think we might not be able to get it.
I grieve the loss of my marriage. It hurts me to know I couldn't protect my kids from the pain of a broken home. I miss them when they go back to their mom's, the house goes from being filled with joy and life to seeming empty. It feels wrong to my soul that after centuries of families being torn apart by hardship and oppression that we now choose to do this to ourselves because we're willing to trade our families for the pursuit of happiness that appears to lie outside of our marriage in the arms of that other person.
But I am so grateful that God knocked the piss out of me and reminded me of my place, made it clear that my job wasn't to get everything I wanted but rather to serve Him, my family, my employer, and in the end to say thank you for this opportunity. My life will never fulfill my every desire or live up to the delusional aspirations I had when I was 18, but when I let go of that and focus my attention every day on what's in front of me it is so lavish I can't believe there was a time I demanded more before I could be content.
I got a little carried away and went from talking about lack of control to appreciation. My main point was about giving up the illusion of control. But appreciation has allowed me to find peace while my outer world crumbled. I wish that for everyone on these boards.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
If God gives me my health, my children, my family, food to eat, a job to do, friends, gifts and talents that I can bring and share with the world, music to listen to, a nice car to drive, a comfortable bed to sleep in...ALL OF THIS...and I STILL look up at the sky and say "Screw You God, without the woman and relationship I want the way I want it when I want it I think all of this is total bull$hit and you can stuff it and take it all back!"...If I was truly THAT ungrateful- well, let's face it, one screwed up woman wouldn't really make me any less miserable.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
WW's are awesome at spewing. And those of us who had the Mr. Nice Guy syndrome are awesome at reacting to that spew.
In the end once they drop the bomb you don't have to put up with it in any way. If you allow yourself to keep feeling hurt, angry, apologetic, defensive, indignant, or- worst of all- like you need to explain your point of view to your WW, you are flat out giving her way too much power. They don't care about your point of view. They just want to remain in control of your emotional life. This is a power you don't have to give them.
I wanted to start a thread with real life examples of spew I've received, along with my response. I'm also happy to have others post spew they've received if they need help finding an appropriate response that isn't reactive. The only problem is that I haven't received any spewy texts lately, probably because I stopped playing the game with XW. OH WAIT! Just got one! Perfect, time to kick this thread off!
The situation: I have 50% parental time, so the kids live with me equally. My mom moved in with me over a year ago to help with the kids since as she is retired and I work full time. We've formed a great family unit, the kids love their grandmother, she enjoys being part of our family, all is good. The only strain is that she doesn't like my XW, and my XW doesn't like her.
So the other day my mom decided to get my two daughters hair cuts. Now this was probably a little provocative. She probably should have asked my permission, and I probably would've advised against it since traditionally my XW has taken the lead on the girls' hair. Maybe my mom was trying to stir the pot. Maybe she just thought they needed haircuts and since she is an adult that lives with them just got it done. Whatever. Point is that this set XW off.
My XW's texts to me: #1 I thought we were to tell each other before altering kids appearances or getting their hair cut. I'm not happy that your mom got it cut. D7's was just starting to grow out. I don't approve of their grandmother deciding their looks when it should be agreed on by their parents, not something a grandmother decides in split families.
#2 The windchill is -13 now and it's the middle of winter, yet you decide to cut our daughters hair off of her neck when I know she doesn't always wear her scarf and it's cold in their school. One thing in the summer, another when it's below zero and there is no consent from the other parent. I'm tired of your mom making decisions over my head. I'm not ok with this.
My reaction: OK, so let me share the thoughts that went through my head when I read this: Great. Here we go again. My mom should know better than to pester the ol' honey badger. I'll probably just respond with something like "agreed, I'll talk to her".
What's this? A second message? WTF. Could she be any more confrontational and pissy? Wait a second. What's this about 'parents agreeing'? She's never asked me once about what type of haircuts she gives the girls. Do I not have a voice in this? Or do we need to agree on haircuts going forward? What if we don't? Do I get my way half the time? Or do I just lose by default? What am I talking about, this is not a serious issue, we're not talking tattoos. What's she going to do, take me back to court because the girls hair was cut? How does she know my mom didn't ask my permission and I gave the ok? And if I did, don't I have as much a right to as she does? Maybe she should have thought about this before she wanted to split the family.
I get where she's coming from and don't really object to her being in the driver's seat of the girls' hair, but I also don't appreciate being spewed at and think her tone is a bigger issue than the haircut.
If I try to ask how we are going to work out haircuts in the future it will lead down a dead end road. If I try to argue that I get a say in the kids haircuts it's going to open up a bunch of arguing about why her hair styles are better or something. In the end this just isn't a big deal and I don't have time for it, nor do I want to send the message that she can fly off the handle at me and get whatever she wants. I'm not interested in talking with someone that is ranting at me.
My reply:Nothing. That's right. I'm moving on. If she wants to take me to court over a haircut I'll have to do some homework and find an amazing defense attorney.
That said, I will talk to my mom and ask her to check with me ahead of time. I will mention to XW any hairstyle changes in the future. Why? Because I think that's reasonable, and I think that's the right thing to do.
But I don't feel the need to apologize, explain, be drawn into an argument, or reward my XW's attempt to start a fight. I'll ignore her and just make the adjustments I think are right and move forward. If she wants to discuss this she can try again with a reasonable tone. Game over.
I hope you all learned something from this. Please post you favorite spew attack and I'm happy to share my thoughts on how to reply. This one was easy because no reply is hard to mess up. But sometimes you do need to reply without reacting. I've got good practice and am happy to help. Hopefully we can get some good tools for dealing with spew assaults. Who's next?
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
You're not trying to win her back right now, you're trying to lay the groundwork for that to happen later (much later probably).
LBSs really struggle with this, but just fading into the shadows is absolutely the best thing you can do right now. I call it "removing yourself from the equation." Right now all her calculations on why her life isn't perfect all point to you. Everything you try to do just reminds her of what her central theme is (that she wants you gone). There's a line Cersei used in Game of Thrones- "your very presence irritates me." This is how she feels about you right now. So you fade into the background. Eventually she'll realize she's still unhappy despite you not being around and ever-present anymore. THAT is when she (hopefully) starts working on herself.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Arranging time with the kids for the holidays is going to be an issue for years. My advice is to bend-over backwards to accommodate your kids. Do not put a premium on the day, just the time spent. "Dad, mom is insisting on getting together for Christmas Eve, and we have my spouse's side on Christmas. Could we do Christmas with you on Saturday?" Accommodate that. Do not get into the game of "Your mom gets Christmas Eve she is more important to than I am!" Be the bigger person. The time with your kids (and grandkids assuming you have some) is the important thing, not the day. The problems always arise when pettiness rules the day. Remember, your adult kids are caught in the middle of juggling all of this. Make it as easy for them as possible.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
All of the expert advice I've read on talking to the kids says to keep the kids out of the details. "Mommy and daddy just do not love each other anymore." type of statements. Things that do not cast blame on either parent. Make it seem as mutual as you possibly can without lying.
Son: "Dad, is this what you want?" You: "I want what is best for everyone, including you kids and your mom."
Notice, didn't lie. Didn't say: "Nope, this is all on your mother!"
And trust me, the kids will know. They don't have to be specifically told. Kids are much more perceptive than you think they are. The truth always has a way of winning out.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
When I was young I saw other people's problems and somehow thought they wouldn't happen to me. I thought that I was different, special, the main character of the movie. That if I just did the right things, was clever and smart enough, played my cards right, and had a good deserving heart, things would just work out. I was the gingerbread man.