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So she wants you to go live with your parents, who would then obviously know your marital issues, but it's angry about you taking to a friend? This is why you can believe nothing they say. She isn't suicidal. Suicidal people don't tell others that they are suicidal. That is her wanting you to feel sorry for her, to back off about the kids. Etc.

Believe nothing she says, Scott. And while you say you are accepting it, your actions continue to show you holding on for dear life. Would you say being angry is being detached, or still overly attached? The kids had to find out sooner or later. A lot of WAS just tell the kids themselves. It can always be worse. So just remember for DB principles. Remaining calm. Avoiding R talks. Listening and validating. Taking nothing she says at face value. GAL (all of this interaction is keeping you stuck!).

It will get worse before it gets better. Just focus on you and the kids and leave her to get own devices.


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Steve - I appreciate you. I want to give up, tell her where to go, and get in with life but you remind me to do that but down a different and better path while helping me keep in mind a goal of saving the marriage the right way. My way is a bit angrier and won’t save it now. Your way is more artful, harder in my opinion, and better. The only challenge for me is using my anger to tell her where to go allows me to move through the grief stages and be done, where your way (at least for me) keeps me stuck with some hope that might not be good for me.

I don’t know. I like your thoughts. Remain calm- ok. Avoid talks - ok. Listen and validate - ok. GAL. Leave her alone - ok. Those are all good principles to follow.

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Originally Posted by ScottB
Steve - I appreciate you. I want to give up, tell her where to go, and get in with life but you remind me to do that but down a different and better path while helping me keep in mind a goal of saving the marriage the right way. My way is a bit angrier and won’t save it now. Your way is more artful, harder in my opinion, and better. The only challenge for me is using my anger to tell her where to go allows me to move through the grief stages and be done, where your way (at least for me) keeps me stuck with some hope that might not be good for me.

I don’t know. I like your thoughts. Remain calm- ok. Avoid talks - ok. Listen and validate - ok. GAL. Leave her alone - ok. Those are all good principles to follow.


My only problem with the stages of grief is the part where they are linear. In reality, they are not. Most people do not transition from one into the other completely. Most of the time people are between two or even three of the stages at the same time. So a focus on moving yourself through them is probably the wrong way to look at it. Follow the process and tit will move through them naturally.


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Originally Posted by ScottB
I posted and went home and he’ll broke loose. I can hardly believe it.


Very sorry you got hit with this, but it does happen. WAS's are going through all kinds of crazy emotions and they will cruise along in the background and just when you start to get complacent here they come with guns ablazin'. All you can do is roll with it and try not to let it ruffle your feathers. You've probably heard people here say "get off the roller coaster, that's from an old DB description that talks about how the WAS goes through all kinds of highs and lows like riding a roller coaster, and the LBS's job is not to ride it with them, it's to get off to the side where the ground is steady and unmoving and watch them ride the highs and lows from a safe distance. You're still letting her take you for a ride!

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As soon as I walked in the door my wife told me that our son had stolen my daughters phone and that my wife had found it. He had been in it till 3am many nights over the last two weeks. My wife had been tearing the house apart looking for that phone. So together we came up with a punishment. That was just the start.


That actually sounds pretty good, the two of you dealt with a family problem together.

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Then at dinner my daughter noticed my wife wasn’t wearing her wedding ring and in a calm but direct manner asked her fives times if she was getting a secret divorce.


Remember to listen and validate. Not just your W, but your kids too. "How does that make you feel?" Whatever she says, fear, anger, etc. don't try to minimize it and say empty things like "oh it'll be OK." Instead validate her feelings. "I hear you saying you are angry she quit wearing her rings, I am sorry you feel hurt by that." Note that you are not taking sides, you're not blaming your W or defending yourself. You are simply acknowledging your daughter's feelings.

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Now i think my son over heard us one night, he ends up going outside. 15 minutes later we find him sitting in the rain without a shirt in crying. We spent the next couple hours comforting him and trying to get him to tell us what was going on because the trigger wasn’t 100% clear, but seemed pretty clear to me. Maybe i should have hit the divorce with him right there but I didn’t.


Again, LISTEN and VALIDATE. Don't ask him "what's wrong" or "Why are you acting like this". Ask him how he FEELS. "Son, you seem upset, can you tell me what you are feeling right now?" Then listen and validate. Don't try to "fix things".

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Once the kids went to bed I was full of rage. I had asked her earlier in the year to wear her rings until we told the kids. She stopped wearing them a month ago.


But why were you really angry? Was it really the rings? Or was it just all the pent-up frustration and anger and sadness over your situation? Rings on, rings off, who cares. It's just jewelry. You might argue it's a symbol of your M, what M? Right now there is no M except on paper. There might be one later, but for now you have to accept that it's over.

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She came and sat next to me and asked me “what was up?” I told her she was selfish.


How about telling her how you feel instead of instantly attacking her? "Oh I'm just angry and frustrated about everything, it's tough seeing the kids having trouble." Now normally we don't suggest sharing your feelings but I think in this case it would have been a good move, and very likely a 180 from how you've been in the past. Then you could invite her to share her feelings. "What are you feeling right now?"

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I told her wearing her rings was small.


Why do you care about the rings? Search your heart on that. Again like I asked before, is this really about the rings.

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Highlights: i learned she is suicidal, I learned she removed my shotgun from the house at some point in the last year and she won’t tell me wear it is, she obviously called me manipulative, controlling, and said “I know the cards you play and I’m not playing your mind games anymore.”


I would guess this just turned into a blame game with her telling you these things and you telling her how it's all her fault. Work on your validation skills, they will serve you well not just with her, but in all areas of your life. "You sound frustrated, is that how you feel? I can understand why you feel that way, this is a difficult situation for you I am sure."

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I told her that the kids were not going to be fine and she said that she knew that, she had been saying that because she didn’t want me to guilt her with the kids.


And I believe she is 100% correct on this. I think if you dig deep, you were indeed trying to guilt her with the kids. You can't "nice" her back and you can't "guilt" her back. But if you listen and validate, she may start thinking "wow, maybe he really is changing, who is this caring, understanding person?"

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She accused me of being selfish and not moving out to give her space (I could go to my parents house).


"You sound very frustrated, I am sorry that's how you are feeling." <<<THIS is NOT an admission of guilt or an apology. Validating is simply acknowledgement of feelings.

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And when she found out I talked to my good friend, again she was furious.


Yes, they perceive this as "rallying the troops" against them. And the fact that she found this out from your D makes me think you're talking to your D too much about your situation. You need to be very careful with this. Do not discuss your situation except here, with your therapist or with people who have ZERO ties to your family. To any mutual friends/ family you just say "we're trying to work through some issues right now" and say nothing more.

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I really didn’t care.


Sounds like you cared a lot. And you should. But you should NOT react.

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She put my kids in a precarious position by being selfish. It’s obvious she is projecting.


But what is HER view on this? Let's go back to your first post:

"A consistent one is that i don’t “get” her or that we don’t have an emotional connection. Now this seems to be the target, that I need to feel more and share my feelings to improve communication."

From her perspective, she's in a marriage with a man that she has no emotional connection with. He doesn't understand her, or even listen to her. He won't share his feelings or communicate with her. Now maybe that all seems silly to you, but to her it's a deal-killer. She's frustrated and has tried and tried and nothing makes a difference. So now she's trying to leave the M as a last resort to save herself and what is she getting from you? Anger, blame, hatred, venom. Really kind of more of the same, isn't it. Now I am not siding with her, but most D's happen because of a breakdown on both sides. This isn't just HER fault. Blame belongs to both of you. Accept your part of it. Accept the pain and hurt she is going through. Accept that she is just as much a victim in this as you are.

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She is lying, being manipulative, and is psychology unhinged.


Is she lying, well most WAS's do. Is she manipulative, well she's trying to get her way so perhaps a bit. Is she psychologically unhinged, no it doesn't sound like it. But it sounds good to you, doesn't it. Kind of relieves you of all personal responsibility if you convince yourself she's crazy.

She's going on a personal journey. You need to go on one as well. Look back at your relationship, find things you could have done better. Consider the things she has told you, seek the truth in them. Do 180's where you need to.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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But why were you really angry? Was it really the rings? Or was it just all the pent-up frustration and anger and sadness over your situation? Rings on, rings off, who cares. It's just jewelry. You might argue it's a symbol of your M, what M? Right now there is no M except on paper. There might be one later, but for now you have to accept that it's over.


I was angry because we had discussed her wearing her rings in February for this very reason. We had been discussing telling the kids soon on our terms as opposed to the kids finding out and to see my broken son on the front steps ripped my heart out. That combined with the fact she has been insisting that they will be ok, infuriated me. This had to do with the kids and from my perspective the fact she couldn't wear a ring so that we could shield them until we were ready to have the conversation.

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How about telling her how you feel instead of instantly attacking her? "Oh I'm just angry and frustrated about everything, it's tough seeing the kids having trouble." Now normally we don't suggest sharing your feelings but I think in this case it would have been a good move, and very likely a 180 from how you've been in the past. Then you could invite her to share her feelings. "What are you feeling right now?"


I agree, this would have been a great opportunity and I missed it. I was triggered. And once I was triggered and was feeling like I just didn't give a crap in that moment, that was it for this opportunity.

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And the fact that she found this out from your D makes me think you're talking to your D too much about your situation.


My daughter was getting dropped off at school when I took the call to say I'd meet him for coffee. I don't tell the kids anything.
----

So today we watched a video that worked through how to tell the kids. That went okay, it did turn into a bit of a relationship talk which is no good. Tomorrow we are watching another video on the same topic as we try to build out the plan for the kids.

I am on board with us separating. Nothing good will come from our current situation. We need space. She offered to me to separate or divorce, she says it is up to me. She said that there is 0% of us staying together, but if it would be easier on me we can start with a separation. She said we will not be working on the marriage during this time. My question is, do I just let us go ahead and go through with the divorce, or do I make the call to just start with the separation? Thoughts?


Thank you all for your help, thoughts, support, and prayers.

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Hi Scott,

I am not following the details of your sitch, but read(skimmed) this last thread.


#1) Get a written agreement on a 50/50 parenting plan in place. This is your #1 priority.

#2) She is done. Agree with her that the marriage is over. There is no need for a separation. This does not mean you stop DBing. It just means you set her free. You do not try to control her. You do not try and manipulate her. You drop the rope. You drop the rope of controlling the outcome.

#3) Go on the trip. If it falls on your parenting time, and you would prefer to go without the kids, then give her the "first right of refusal". I have something the weekend of XYZ and want to know if you will watch the kids. I need to know your answer by "This date". Otherwise I will make other arrangements.


She has retained a lawyer. That [censored]. Most likely you will need one and they will "argue" over things to get as many billable hours as they can and then settle. That is just my perception. Hope fore the best but be very prepared for the worst.

Good luck sir


"What is best for my kids is best for me"
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Originally Posted by ScottB

I am on board with us separating. Nothing good will come from our current situation. We need space. She offered to me to separate or divorce, she says it is up to me. She said that there is 0% of us staying together, but if it would be easier on me we can start with a separation. She said we will not be working on the marriage during this time. My question is, do I just let us go ahead and go through with the divorce, or do I make the call to just start with the separation? Thoughts?[/b]
.


I always answer questions like this with a question (or questions). Do you want to be separated? Do you want a D? Here is the thing, WASs/WSs are notoriously lazy when it comes to these things. She wants you to do all the work. She wants to be able to look back and tell people (your kids?) that YOUR dad was the one that wanted a separation and/or divorce. Trust me on this, I've seen it dozens of times. One S has an affair or wants out of the marriage. The LBS finally gets tired of waiting and files for D. Years later the WAS' story is that "we were having problems, and ScottB pulled the plug."

I've told lots of LBS that were in IHS before, that if you think separation is going to help or fix things etc then you are sorely mistaken. We see a myriad of sitches on this forum and it always amazes me the GRASS IS GREENER attitude that LBS have. If in IHS they say "if we didn't have to see each other so much" etc....... But then read the sitches that are in physical separation. You see those LBSs saying "She won't talk to me. I have no way of showing her my many changes I am making." I've also so seen many IHS LBSs that HAD to push for S for their own sanity, only to find themselves separated and wishing they weren't.

The moral of this story is that Scott if you want a separation, then yes go for it. If you want a D, then yes go for it. But do not do it to fix the marriage or have any such expectation. Do not do it to "wake her up" to the reality of the sitch. If you try to S or D for any other reason than to be S or D then you will look back with regrets that you are S or D!!

My advice is to not lift a finger. Next time it comes up tell her it is her choice to S or D, not yours. If she wants S or D then SHE should move out and/or file. Of course she wants to make it your choice. It is like going out to eat. "Where do you want to go to eat?" "I don't know, where do you want to go to eat?" No one wants to make a choice in case it turns out to be the wrong choice! She is doing the same thing here.

Ride it out. Make her do the work. Listen and validate. Make no promises. Open that cage door and let her decide whether to go through it or not.


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Ok. That was where I was headed initially. A friend of mine that had a WAW recommended the separation. Him and his wife separated, for back together, then divorced, then remarried. He said suddenly it was like a light switch went off. He said it was weird. They’re doing great now. He’s late 40’s but started when he About my age.

He kind of reiterated some of the hormonal stuff going on with women at this time that LH mentioned. Last night my focus was on lite conversation, watched an uplifting show, and went to bed. Tonight we’re supposed to watch a video on telling the kids to come up with our plan. We’re going to tell them either 11/6 or 11/13. On 11/20 the whole family is supposed to go away for Thanksgiving. At this time the plan is that it will just be me and the kids, but they obviously don’t know that yet. We go to the same place every year for thanksgiving for a week. I’m really worried about it - worries about how the kids will do being away from there mother that long at a time like this and with everything going on.

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Originally Posted by ScottB
Ok. That was where I was headed initially. A friend of mine that had a WAW recommended the separation. Him and his wife separated, for back together, then divorced, then remarried. He said suddenly it was like a light switch went off. He said it was weird. They’re doing great now. He’s late 40’s but started when he About my age.

He kind of reiterated some of the hormonal stuff going on with women at this time that LH mentioned. Last night my focus was on lite conversation, watched an uplifting show, and went to bed. Tonight we’re supposed to watch a video on telling the kids to come up with our plan. We’re going to tell them either 11/6 or 11/13. On 11/20 the whole family is supposed to go away for Thanksgiving. At this time the plan is that it will just be me and the kids, but they obviously don’t know that yet. We go to the same place every year for thanksgiving for a week. I’m really worried about it - worries about how the kids will do being away from there mother that long at a time like this and with everything going on.


My W never left despite making bluster about doing it. And we eventually reconciled while IHS. There is no magic bullet and you will drive yourself crazy trying to find one.


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Originally Posted by ScottB
I was angry because we had discussed her wearing her rings in February for this very reason. We had been discussing telling the kids soon on our terms as opposed to the kids finding out and to see my broken son on the front steps ripped my heart out. That combined with the fact she has been insisting that they will be ok, infuriated me. This had to do with the kids and from my perspective the fact she couldn't wear a ring so that we could shield them until we were ready to have the conversation.


It's not really possible to shield kids from these situations. Maybe early on, but not for long. Kids are intuitive, more than we give them credit for. They know when things are not right between their parents and if you try to hide it from them it makes them think it's their fault. So it's best to sit down with them and discuss it. What kids need to know first and foremost is that it isn't their fault, so emphasize that both of you love them, both of you support them, and no matter what happens between W and you, both of you will always be their parents and be there for them. They need reassurances more than anything. Ask them if they have any questions or concerns, and listen and validate.

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I am on board with us separating. Nothing good will come from our current situation. We need space. She offered to me to separate or divorce, she says it is up to me. She said that there is 0% of us staying together, but if it would be easier on me we can start with a separation. She said we will not be working on the marriage during this time. My question is, do I just let us go ahead and go through with the divorce, or do I make the call to just start with the separation? Thoughts?


My thoughts are that it's HER decision, not yours. Your decision is to work on the M. If SHE pursues S or D, then you can't stop her and you won't stand in her way. But you also will not do the work for her. Look, I would absolutely not give her an "out" on this. If she tells you to decide between S and D, then no matter which you pick you've just given her permission to tell everyone "well he said this is what he wants". Don't give her the satisfaction! Tell her "I choose neither, I want to work on the M. But I understand that this is what you want and I will not stand in your way. I support your decision whatever it is." If you have a reading list, add Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough" to it. A lot of it dovetails nicely with DR. He talks about "opening the cage door" for the WAS. WAS's will often say they feel "trapped" or "caged". Dobson compares the situation to a bird, it wants out of it's cage but if you open the door and it realizes it isn't trapped, it may decide it likes it in there after all. Or it may fly off and then come back, deciding it likes the safety of the cage after all. Or it may never come back, but the idea is you are stepping back and letting her decide. If she thinks you are controlling then this is a good 180.


Me: 60 w/ S18, D24, D27

M: 21 years; BD: 06-14-12; S: 09-10-12; D final: 03-17-14; XW:57
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