Very quick recap: BD June 2019; M nearly 11 years, T 17. Roommates: H turns to monster mode off and on—he told me he was filing last year but never did, then said it again in July, when he also told be he had OW. Finally served papers at my work today (would have been a surprise but a co-worker was able to give me a heads up). H had his friend serve me the papers (crumpled up, folded crookedly, without an envelope), and—another surprise—he filed for an annulment, not a dissolution of marriage, because he says our SSM was a fraud. Like, he literally checked the "fraud" box as a reason. Niiiice. I'm entering the next phase of this saga, but I'm ready for it. I need to stick to my thread title and continue to look toward my values.
Originally Posted by DnJ
Originally Posted by DnJ
Believe in yourself. You’ve no need to convince or prove anyone else’s point of view wrong or right.
A timely reminder, DnJ.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I was fine with no courtesy heads up. I was fine with being served at work unnecessarily.
Originally Posted by Sage4
Because you are strong. And you know it.
Yes, I am! Another timely reminder.
Originally Posted by Sage4
This will not matter to you in two years' time. This is not part of the business transaction. Let this one go. If they don't recognize your side, they are not worthy of your time. (And a 2x4: you don't actually know this to be true, you are projecting it. Let others' opinions go right now so you can save your strength for you.)
I wish I was projecting, but H has told me many times exactly what he tells his friends and exactly what they think of me/our situation. But, yeah, why should I take his words as truth? And why should I care what these people think? They don't know me, and what they think doesn't matter. (Also, boundary: if H ever again tries to tell me what his friends think or what he told so-and-so: NOPE, won't listen to that.)
Originally Posted by cardinal
But now that he thinks he can magically erase our M with an annulment the way he has erased and rewritten it in his memory, I’m not fine.
Originally Posted by Sage4
What if there was another truth here in place of the one you suggest above? What if H is simply a selfish, lying sonofagun who doesn't want to pay you what you deserve and doesn't want to acknowledge that he has spent all that savings in the account he won't show you? What if this is simply a business transaction for H, a shady one for sure, but isn't about erasing your M, but more about not wanting to give you what you deserve post-M?
He is entitled and thinking only of himself.
Please allow this fact to give yourself permission to also only think of yourself. Because no one but you (and us!) are going to look out for you right now.
Your words are really helping me to begin to shift my thinking, Sage; thank you. I really think it's both that it's a complete business transaction for him, and he doesn't want to have to give me anything, and that he also wants our M never to have happened, but as the anger has worked its way through me, I've been able to feel some compassion for him here. I think, in part, he's gotten worse and worse (angrier and angrier, less and less rational) over the last year+ because he's had to push down a tiny realization of his part in all this. He's always built his identity on being a nice guy, a sensitive guy--a guy unlike "other guys." He's also always pushed down feelings. He's been completely incapable of expressing or sitting with his feelings. He's got to sublimate this M and our history and any feelings around it like he does everything else that's hard to deal with in his life, including looking at himself. What a horrible way to live! He's excellent at pushing stuff down and ignoring it, but either it's all going to catch up with him again, and he's going to have to work through the choices he's made (super hard), or he's going to keep pushing it down, and that's going to take a toll on him (super awful).
So far I can say I don't have any huge regrets about the choices I've made post-BD, in that I have, for the most part, acted according to my values. (Do I sort of regret giving H an apology letter early on? Probably, but I also know that was in line with my values—to admit shortcomings, to at least try to make amends. Do I regret trying to engage him convo a few months ago as if he was rational? Yes! But I didn't say anything too terrible.) Now, maybe H does have a personality disorder and will never see anything he's done as unkind because he's incapable of doing so. But deep down I suspect that he's burying a lot of shame, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
Originally Posted by Sage4
It took my very Catholic aunt YEARS to get a legal annulment for her M, and both parties were cooperative and desiring an annulment for religious reasons, therefore working together tirelessly to get the state to agree. And she lived in a conservative state. I believe you live in a liberal one where there is a lot of money and high-stakes divorces. This is a very, very, very hard path to take and another indication of what kind of L your H has retained.
I'm so glad you shared this, Sage! Part of the result of the gaslighting is that I'm like, well, maybe H is right, maybe this M was so bad it deserves to be annulled. Even though I know this is actually a crazy move.
Originally Posted by Sage4
A long-term goal is to trust yourself, your memories and know in your beliefs. If, in the short term, you have to ask others for validation, that's OK. You are reclaiming your sanity and sometimes we just need lighthouses to help guide us into the harbor.
Yes, yes, yes. I know I've come a long way, but seeing that he'd actually marked "Annulment" on the forms today was so, so triggering. H tells everyone about SSM (again, I realize he likely has some shame around this too and so has to loudly turn it into my thing in order to offload it)—it's like in his dreams I'm sitting in a courtroom telling everyone I'm a bad wife, and the judge says, "Oh, my god, you poor man, of course you don't owe her anything!" I was immediately put on the defensive again, where I have to do the opposite of DnJ's advice: I have to prove why I deserve a D and not an annulment, that our marriage was real regardless of type or amount of sex, etc etc. I have to remember that just because H marked that box and his L was okay with it doesn't mean I have to prove our M was real to H or anyone. I need to just trust myself to believe the truth. There's something about seeing it on court forms that pushed me hard into that mode again.
Anyway, I'm so glad I could come here and vent today. I've never felt it in my body like that in my life. I was like, okay, I need Wayfarer's rage room, and I need it now!
I need to transition fully to business mode. There's no point in trying to reason with H; let L deal with him. No kids, no big assets, no home ownership, and the law is clear on pension division even if H doesn't like it. I keep thinking, What issues do we have that he could waste money to fight for the long haul? I know he can draw things out by not doing anything, but... how complicated can he manage to make a pretty straightforward D? Maybe don't answer that.
Oooh, one other thought: I've been thinking of writing MIL a little note for a while now. Nothing to do with H or D, even though I would like to have that conversation some day maybe. The last I heard from her was pre-COVID, when she texted to say she will always love me. We haven't spoken since BD. One thing that helped me feel calmer tonight was just the idea of taking my anger and turning it into love; I decided I'd like to go through with mailing her a note telling her I think of her often and that she is loved, no reply needed. Should I sit on this for a while? Bad idea? Honestly, I'm kind of done caring what H would think of this.
I’m on my phone and am terrible at a lot of typing on this so will need to be short. But... first...
(((Cardinal)))
Omg. What an @ss. (I mean, what a duck.) this whole thing, the way he is handling it, shows how lost and ridiculous he is right now. If you are untangling a business relationship with this clown, honey, you are soooooo in the driver’s seat.
And of course I’m googling fraud and annulment in California and it is a JOKE that he thinks he can do this. First off, if fraud is the reason, the statute of limitations is 4 years from finding out the “fraud”. Explain to me how he tells a judge about your 17 year relationship and 10 year marriage and can, with a straight face, claim fraud. Honestly, from a business perspective this is probably good for you because he’s showing his cards and is clearly insane and greedy and just a real piece of work. No judge will take him seriously and his L is just mining his sad @ss for dollars. My guess is you’ll come out better than if he acted like as adult in the first place
You really sound so strong and awesome with your job(s) and everything... I’m so proud of you. Make your own rage room!! Rip something up or smash an old glass. (I tried this but sadly only chipped a mug after throwing it TWICE into the sink. Not exactly what I had imagined!!)
Re your MIL— do what your heart tells you. I have spoken a few times to my MIL 1-1 and I’m glad I did. I would have been okay just speaking my piece to her though, no response needed, and I sense the same for you. If you think it would be hard if she wasn’t supportive in some way, then avoid it. Only reach out if it serves you no matter what.
Hugs, C. We are all here for you. xoxo M
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Oh my goodness. He checked the box - fraud. Lol. Sometimes you just need to see the humorous side of things. Although it is simultaneously quite sad for him. Imagine trying to erase your own past. He is a lost soul.
His friends that he “tells all”. Yeah, of course they will agree with him. Emotionally troubled people, especially MLCers, surround themselves with enablers, people who feed his side. These are usually “new friends”, one’s who really understand them, unlike us and our old would be friends. <Barf> Lol. These people will get the boot as soon as they don’t play along with H’s fantasy.
Originally Posted by cardinal
(Also, boundary: if H ever again tries to tell me what his friends think or what he told so-and-so: NOPE, won't listen to that.)
Good!
Rock solid boundaries.
You are spot on with H. You know him best, only second to himself. Yes, he is pushing down the shame and guilt, which makes things worse and worse for him. Of course he cannot see or acknowledge that in the state he is in. He needs to run, until he tires and the pain becomes so great that he realizes maybe running isn’t the answer.
I am glad to see you understand his projection of his part in the SSM onto you. MLCers will use (abuse ?) the legal system to their advantage. Him alleging fraud has little financial significance, and stands basically no chance of becoming a binding agreement. But, it gives him a feeling of legitimacy to his feeling by seeing it on legal documents.
My XW threw away her children on the legal documents; not just once but twice. There was no need to state that again with the divorce check box sheet submission; was an addendum to the paperwork. It was just her projections upon the kids and me.
And you are correct on how seeing our situations in print is different. Having this on court documents does have a different feel to it. Makes it more real, seeing your name and H’s, and the proposal. It does emotionally push one about. Takes a few days to regain your balance.
H is irrational and deeply enthralled in his fantasy. I agree with you, there is no negotiating with him, nor much need too. Let your L handle things.
Regarding writing MIL. Sit on it for a bit. You will feel different in a few days. Write because you are doing it for more than something you are feeling.
To encourage and challenge:
MIL is not your family. If you get divorced, she is H’s mom. Do you see her and you continuing a relationship? XW’s side, her aunt and family, all said they loved me and the kids. We were welcome anytime, etc., etc. Well, blood is thicker than water. There no contact from them at all. Not to me. Not to the kids (and they are blood related). Divorce is messy and there are collateral damages.
On the other side, MIL is not your family. Her and you are, were, friends. Perhaps a friendship is wanted on both sides. There is nothing wrong with that, aside from the obvious concerns regarding H’s interference and influence. He is her son. And Mom’s love unconditionally. Well...most do; XW is a strange one.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I decided I'd like to go through with mailing her a note telling her I think of her often and that she is loved, no reply needed.
I’d remove the “no reply needed”.
If she wants to respond, it appears you’d rather she doesn’t. And in truth I think you’d like a response, but fear what she might say. Face it and fear not.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Second: As others have said, separate all emotion from this portion of the show. You have now entered the phase where you are dissolving a business partnership gone awry. Get. A. Lawyer. Refer everything stbx says to your lawyer. Do not engage. Ask the lawyer what you're entitled to. Ask to have stbx pay legal fees. Go for absolutely everything you are entitled to and settle for what makes sense to you, knowing that post D your stbx could and may not honor any agreements. You've been married over 10 years. You are entitled legally. It's not his decision, it's the law's.
In terms of the emotions, let them out in a safe place when he's not around. Be gentle with yourself.
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
(((Cardinal)))... Yep...the rewriting of history is pretty stunning sometimes. But it is what they have to do to feel “good” about what they are doing. It has nothing to do with you or what you know to be the reality. No marriages are perfect. SSM’s happen (most of the time) when one or both spouses stop “dating” each other. It happened in my marriage even though my H and I were very compatible in that regard and had a great sex life in the beginning. But after we had kids and they became the focus, we (notice I said “we” and not “I”) stopped paying attention to our relationship and our sex life was the first casualty. I remember being very aware of it at the time and feeling responsible for it even though it wasn’t like he was trying to initiate anything and I was rejecting him. That rarely, if ever happened. When we did have sex, I would remind myself “Oh yeah...I do like sex” and resolve to not let too much time pass before it happened again. Then I would blink and weeks had passed. And then the last four years...he was essentially gone so it became a moot point. You can’t have sex with a ghost. Anyway...when BD happened, I blamed myself for this part but realistically, it was a two-way street and we were both responsible for letting it happen. I feel better about my part knowing that at least I didn’t abandon him and my kids to another “secret” life. I was in it for better or for worse and I can hold my head up high in that regard. He cannot.
Fast forward two years and I am in a new relationship and we have a great connection that way. We are both loyal and honest people and have learned a lot from our previous relationships and we talk about things XH and I never talked about...directly and honestly. That bodes well for the future, I think. Time will tell but I just want to encourage you to move forward as best you can and don’t take too much responsibility for the demise of your marriage. He had a big part to play and unlike you, he decided to fix things by cheating and lying. You, too, can hold your head up high.
RE: MIL. Yes it is a fine line to walk and one I have been walking for awhile. XH lied to his mom as much as he lied to me for all those years and treated her like crap. She consistently went to me if she needed to ask him something because he would snap at her. He had all of us walking on egg shells. When BD first happened and she found out about his affair and all of his lies, her response was to tell me that I am better off without him. She wasn’t wrong. I am in a unique position because she and I own our home together and she lives in a suite in the lower level. She helps me with the kids and is a support. BUT...she is XH’s mom and he is her only child and a mom’s love is unconditional so they still spend time together and she has accepted OW as his partner. That was initially a bitter pill to swallow but I’m over it. My relationship with her is separate from her relationship with XH and OW. No matter what, I am still the mother of her grandchildren so OW will not and has not replaced me. We have a friendship that stands on its own. She still joins me and the kids for family dinners and has Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners with us and my sister and BIL as well as XH and OW. She also LOVES my new boyfriend as she thinks he is the kind of person that I deserve to have in my life.
If you want to have a relationship with your MIL, you should reach out to her. But other than acknowledging the end of your relationship and maybe your regret that things turned out the way they did, you should avoid talking about her son and his OW. That’s a path you don’t need or want to go down. It would make things awkward and ultimately, if you force her to choose sides, she will have to go with her son. My MIL and I rarely talk about XH. We don’t need to. She knows the truth (she witnessed it firsthand) but she also loves her son and she is in her 80s and needs her life to be peaceful and drama-free so she has chosen to forgive and forget. I do not fault her for that in the least as I’m sure it is what I would do if I were her.
Anyway...I know things are really hard right now Cardinal. I promise you that once you have the business of your divorce over with, your healing will go much quicker. There IS life after divorce and it can be a great one if you make it that way. (((HUGS)))
I am so very sorry. I agree w/all of the posters. Make every attempt to separate your emotions from this situation and look at all of it as a business contract that has soured and now you need to move forward and dissolve the situation the best way that you can. Seek a good lawyer, make a list of questions and ask them. Take notes and keep all info to yourself and do not share anything that you have been told by your lawyer. I agree w/bttrfly...you are entitled legally and it is the law and not his decision. The law will state exactly what needs to be done and how it's done.
Come here to vent, be gentle w/yourself and yes, you will have ups and downs while going through this process. Trust your gut and if you aren't sure of something, ask your lawyer or even come here...we will listen and offer advice as many of us have been where you are right now.
Hang in there!
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
wow cardinal. You've entered the crazy territory......I can't believe your H did that.
hopefully one day you will be able to look back and laugh at it.
I don't really talk to my MIL anymore, I'll send here some pics of the boys here and there. In the beginning I had this ideal that we will still be family, but it just somehow doesn't feel that way anymore. There is no value in it for me. Even having her as a "friend" does not contribute to my life in any way.
It's kind of like shedding dead skin. You don't necessarily make the decision for it to go away, it just does.
bttrfly, may, DnJ, wooba, job, DejaVu, wooba... it was so nice to read your messages. I'm sorry I haven't had the time to reply to them or even write on other threads yet. Even now I am dropping in for some quick encouragement if anyone has more to offer.
I signed a retainer today with one of the Ls I consulted previously. A friend of a good friend had just gone through a long, contentious D and custody battle with a narcissist and recommended this L--she started out with others but fired them and was very happy with her. She didn't recommend anyone in our town. This seemed encouraging to me. I spoke to her again today and updated her on my situation. H's L apparently doesn't specialize in family law but splits time between that and criminal defense and injury law. This L didn't tell me what I wanted to hear--that none of this would go to court in a million years, that we could get H out of the house, etc. etc. She said H's decision is really weird, she never hears about fraud cases, and it doesn't seem that he has any ground. But she also said if he's determined to go to court no matter what, even if it's a waste of time, in the end, I can't control that. She said trying to get him out of the house would cost too much money to be worth it (another L I liked had said a restraining order should be within reach). She said the court doesn't usually award L fees except on an interim basis, even though I make less than him, and I probably wouldn't get help there since I can afford the retainer. In short, she'll work as hard as she can to get him to come to a D agreement, and if we have to go to court because he won't settle, she'll fight for me there.
I'm full of fear, resignation, and dread tonight. People close to me say they think he's expecting I won't stand up for myself. I'm thinking about how free I felt when I decided I wouldn't fight to stay in this house and would leave this state instead, start somewhere anew--that was before I found a job here, which I like, and which tethered me here again. I'm in the situation I didn't want to be in now, feeling backed into a corner, like he's going to try to take my house and pets, or it's going to cost me the savings I've managed to put together over the last year to try to keep them. If I try to find a different place to live, though, it'll cost me just as much in higher rent over the course of a year or so anyway, so maybe it's worth it to fight. But if we end up in court, even if it seems pretty clear that I am at a disadvantage and should get to stay here, there's never a guarantee that would be the outcome.
I know I'm getting way ahead of myself, fearing court and worst-case scenarios before this process has even really begun. I can't summon any strength or confidence. I'm just tired.
And wooba, I totally feel like I've crossed over into crazy territory now that H has done this! job, am I the only person here this has every happened to? I can only shake my head.
I hope I made the right decision with the L. If I had more money, maybe I would have done another consult, but I probably always would have second-guessed a decision this big and strange no matter how many I did.
job, if I've said too much here, please let me know.
the good news is every lawyer you consulted with (keep a list) now can not represent your h, should he opt to shop for a different lawyer down the road.
something told me to consult the lawyer my husband ended up using and i really wish I had as it would have a. spiked his guns and b. forced him to find someone who perhaps would not have been so blatantly contentious/after our money. but i will say this: i learned a valuable lesson as a realtor: the type of person you are attracts the type of clients you get. In that regard she was a perfect match for my exh, what was after every red cent. so, not to fan any flames, but to say this: stay aware, be observant. lawyers do not always work for their clients - they are in the business of making money and not all are scrupulous. You have no control over how this unfolds or what the other side does or tries to do, which is the hardest thing I think. Here's the good news: there is something you DO have control over: yourself and how you conduct yourself through this.
Here's what got me through:
1. I spent a very, very long time deciding what really mattered to me and what I really wanted. That included laying out different scenarios - this path if the marriage survived, that path if it didn't. I needed to do that in order to get to the real answer which was that regardless of outcome, what was most important to me 5, 10 or 20 years down the road was that I could look back and say with all honesty that the balance of the time this unfolded I took the high road, I fought for fairness, I made the best decisions for my son's wellbeing that I could out of the miserable options I was given, and I could be proud of my conduct.
Five years out from BD doll and I got what meant the most to me: Yes, I put my son's wellbeing first and conducted myself with grace, dignity and fierce compassion most of the time (remember that exercise of finding your core values? this is exactly why you went through that, so you could apply the core values NOW).
2. Look at the worst case scenario. Stare it down. So what happens if you have to leave your home? Your pets are important to you. You were prepared to leave the state, start over somewhere else, and out of the blue, what happened? You got this job.
Cardinal, there is a lesson - you got this job out of the blue, on one interview, right? I think you said you didn't think you had the qualifications for it at the time?
My dear, the Universe is telling you something. Pay attention, please!!! You've done this once, you can and will be able to do this again, as often as you need to, either there or in another state. You're already being taken care of Cardinal, don't you see? Have faith. Trust and roll with it. In the struggle is the suffering.
In short Cardinal, this is a time of vigilance, but also a time to know that no matter what happens to you, you are going to be ok. You will get through this, and be stronger than you ever thought possible on the other side. You have no idea what the Universe has in store for you, but I guarantee it's beyond your wildest dreams. You just have to get through this first. i don't think the process of turning from a caterpillar to a butterfly is easy or pain-free for the caterpillar, but look at what emerges from the cocoon!!! You're in the cocoon. Many, many blessings.
(on a separate note, finished a bunch of work two days ago on the chicken coop/run aka the Palace as my son's gf calls it. posted it on the chicken board with photos. getting good feedback. i'm certifiable - i took my questionable sewing skills and made curtains for their nest boxes. They have a lovely terracotta thermostat, hanging bunches of herbs from the ceiling of the coop, curtains, linoleum floors, contact paper back wall ... herbs in the nest box - these girls live LARGE. wish you could see it and hang out with them. It would lower your stress level).
xoxoxo
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
Yes to what bttrfly said. Have faith, you will get through this, and emerge very well.
Good for you retaining a lawyer. She is correct you cannot control H or whatever irrational idea he decides he wants to act upon. You do control you and how you respond. This is business. Let you L deal with H and his weaselly legal antics.
You see your fear and how far ahead you are looking. Very good by the way to recognize that - it’s a necessary step. Fear is paralyzing and obscures other possibilities by focusing upon the fear-inducing ones. It is possible H will change his mind. I don’t think H doesn’t expects you to stand up to him. I think you didn’t expect to stand up to him either. (((Hugs)))
Don’t back down. Let your L do her job and get you what you’re entitled too. Let her respond with that tack. There is no need to capitulate to H’s wild demands. He might actually be bluffing. He may negotiate. Or he may want to go to court. Don’t fret! Remember a lot of your concerns and fears will not come to pass. Sure, some will, and as they become reality the fear dissipates as the situation moves from imagined to real. And fear moves from irrational response to rational problem solving.
It is good to recognize the worse case scenarios. How about the best case? The likely case? Ensuring you have a complete picture helps alleviate fear. Fear feeds and lives in the dark recesses of our emotions. Shine some light; fear does not look nearly as scary as it was imagined to be.
cardinal, you are a strong person with much confidence. I know that it doesn’t feel that way at this moment.
Have faith.
Walk the path.
Become.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
am I the only person here this has every happened to?
Cardinal, you must be kidding! Some version of this has happened to almost all of us!
I know how you are feeling, I have been there and back and back and there and over and over. Esp that feeling that someone will take your home. I have been living that for four years and counting. ((((Cardinal)))))
Your L sounds good. That's great! I never had a good one and now am pro se.
Here's my advice -- first, take time every day to separate your mind from your heart. This battle is only about money. You can deal with your heart separately or later. I know it's hard, but it's key.
Second -- your L said it wasn't worth it to get him out of the house?! This is totally untrue. I might have ended up in the insane asylum if I hadn't gotten mine out, and my son was suicidal and a truant. All that changed when I got H out, and I could heal and think clearly. Your L is wrong about that; maybe she never lived with an MLCer, esp one who refused to leave after filing for D. Yes, you can be that strong, but why should you if you can give him a downpayment on his share of equity and he will leave? Talk to your lawyer about it to see if it's possible to be creative about that. If you know that you will be having to buy him out and you have some way to get money, you could offer to pay him $1000 a month as an advance on ED or to borrow some money, e.g., $10,000 to give him a first payment. Make sure it's in writing as an advance on ED only, and show that you had to borrow to be able to pay it so they don't try any alimony nonsense with it. But even if you lose some money having that happen, I assure you it will change your entire outlook, etc., if you can get him to leave.
If you can't, can you set him up in some other part of the house so that you don't have to interact at all? Do you have a separate entrance? Or can you take the upstairs and only share the kitchen?
If some part of you still wants to stand, that is not mutually exclusive with what I am saying. You can even tell him that you hope to restore the marriage one day but that you can't live like this and need to heal. You don't have to be vicious or nasty or any of that to get him out of your house. Learn from my story! Get him out if you can! (And it will also help to establish a precedent for use of the house, but don't tell him that. And if you don't have kids, that might not be a factor anyway.)
XO
Last edited by Gerda; 10/29/2001:48 PM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
A good lawyer will tell you the truth, like she did. A bad lawyer will let things drag out just to pad their bill.
Think about your goals in terms of priority and recognize you won't get everything you want.
If staying in the house is important to you and your lawyer thinks it's a possibility in the long run, then you COULD just make it the place you sleep at night and keep the rest of your life as separate as possible from your STBX in the meantime. If, on the other hand, being in a rental and away from his craziness will give you peace of mind and is financially doable even if it means a reduced standard of living - consider what that benefit will do for you. I can't remember if this is a rental or a house you own. If it's a rental - a shared home with a good roommate may be much nicer than your current living situation. Only you can decide that - but you were looking forward to the idea of moving away. Just moving out of the house where you are may give you similar relief. Now that you are working you could start saving money towards that goal at least.
Your attorney is right in that your ex can take you to court for almost anything, no matter how ridiculous, if he wants to. Doesn't mean he will win but it will cost you time and energy. Ask your attorney what a reasonable settlement would usually look like in your case. Ask for more but realize that is probably where you will end up and plan accordingly. And realize that there's a benefit to being done and away even if it costs you something to get there.
Try to avoid giving him anything to grab onto in terms of aggravating you. Don't give away all your rights but be strategic about what matters most. And in the meantime, LIVE! Don't put everything on hold in your life. Do fun things and look forward to your future.
I like all the advice you've been given above-- and want to second (third?) what Butterfly and DnJ are saying... you can do this. You've already done so much of the work. You will get through this and you will be better and stronger for it.
On the L fees... can you put together a budget of how much you're comfortable spending? When you put your business-only hat on, and remove any emotional connection you have to the place, there will be a tipping point where it becomes more expensive to hang onto it than to move (factoring in the L fees, the expense of moving, increased rent, etc). I'd do the math and keep that number in mind.
I'm sure he doesn't think you're going to stand up for yourself. I'm actually getting a kick out of thinking of him realizing you have a kick-@ss L on your side now and won't be rolling over on this one.
We're all here for you, Cardinal.
xx M
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Oh boy Cardinal, I've missed a lot, a lot. Well your sweet soul will survive this. You sound like you have a good lawyer. And that you can see the forest through the trees for the most part. Don't let H's crazy take you down with him. You can rise above all this. And you will.
I wanted to pop in before I have to move on to my next Monday to-do item (my Mondays are so long), but now I've run out of time. I still want to thank you all so much for your encouragement. I want to go through these posts more carefully and reply soon! Wayfarer, I need to make it back to the Newcomers board to read your update—I've been thinking of you and hope you're doing well. I am so grateful for every one of you. I still don't know how I'm going to get through this next phase, but I choose to believe you all that I will.
H was gone for a week, starting on the day he knew I would be served. He has been back and in and out for a few days now, and the first time he came through my room, I said hello—it was a polite reflex, another human entering my space. Of course H has still not addressed the fact that he filed for an annulment, or that I was served at all; instead, he asked me where we buy our dryer sheets today. He couldn't find them at the store. I didn't know whether to laugh or scream. It's just all so, so strange, where their minds go! We're probably right on track for his acting "normal" until he realizes I'm not going to play along, at which point he will explode. All of this has made me realize I'm not fully detached because I still, deep down, feel partially responsible for his feelings and actions when I should not. Something to be aware of and focus on rewiring...
I have to say, you are the queen of GAL, girl. In a couple short months (weeks??) you have gone from having a lot of time on your hands to being so in demand with work and obligations that we hardly see you! Yay for you!
I hope that the work is fulfilling and you are getting some external interactions with colleagues, if only virtually. Other people can help us realize what it feels like to be treated with respect and dignity and reinforce that we are indeed good people worthy of those things.
Originally Posted by cardinal
We're probably right on track for his acting "normal" until he realizes I'm not going to play along, at which point he will explode. All of this has made me realize I'm not fully detached because I still, deep down, feel partially responsible for his feelings and actions when I should not. Something to be aware of and focus on rewiring...
Can I ask a tough question? Do you really feel responsible for H's feelings and actions OR are you scared of his feelings and actions?
In the early days after BD, I felt responsible for H's feelings, that they were somehow mine to fix. In the waning days of my co-dependency/attachment to H (like last month, haha), my primary response was based upon fear of his reactions and how they would make me feel. At that point, I didn't necessarily feel responsible for H's feelings, but I was still scared of those feelings.
Identifying the source of my reactions and feelings was a helpful exercise in the process of separating my feelings from H's feelings. Which helped aid detachment.
You are so full of growth, wisdom and curiosity, Cardinal. You are going to be just fine, no matter how hard H makes this process.
We're probably right on track for his acting "normal" until he realizes I'm not going to play along, at which point he will explode. All of this has made me realize I'm not fully detached because I still, deep down, feel partially responsible for his feelings and actions when I should not. Something to be aware of and focus on rewiring...
Can I ask a tough question? Do you really feel responsible for H's feelings and actions OR are you scared of his feelings and actions?
In the early days after BD, I felt responsible for H's feelings, that they were somehow mine to fix. In the waning days of my co-dependency/attachment to H (like last month, haha), my primary response was based upon fear of his reactions and how they would make me feel. At that point, I didn't necessarily feel responsible for H's feelings, but I was still scared of those feelings.
I think like Sage said, being aware of possible co-dependency in your past R and work towards separating yourself from your H is the key. Once you've worked your way through it though, it might be that we "normal" folks just do not take these feelings/behavior well anyway. For me, when H blew up at me last time, I felt neither responsible for it nor was I scared of his feelings/actions. I was just both surprised and offended because what came out from him was not socially acceptable. A lot of times it's simply a conflict between what's expected (the social norm) vs MLC behavior.
I echo Sage's thought. If you do not feel responsible, then great. If you do, please work on letting it go.
I think I posted a while ago that H was on his phone screaming so loud at someone, I could hear with the door closed. I did not feel anything for his anger AND when he was done being on the phone, he never acknowledged what it was about-that's fine. It was not me. I knew that and did not care.
One of the things getting me through is DnJ's <barf>. It made me laugh, but that is what I want to write over and over today: <barf>. I'm filled with rage again—it started out as adrenaline, then fear, and then I woke up with all of that having been replaced by anger. It seems I spend a lot of time lately either laughing or feeling angry, shooting back and forth between both impulses. It is kind of funny: apparently according to H and L I've been having sex with other men (throughout our M? I'm not sure when in his mind this was happening). Total BS. He, of course, is the one who happily told me about his OW months ago. It's ridiculous. It's maddening. In H's mind there is no community property I am owed. Um, this is why there are laws in place? Maybe he should've gotten a prenup if he wanted to keep everything separate over a 10-year M? Yet I'm not comforted, like I used to be, in thinking any judge would of course see that he's just trying to avoid responsibility. I mean, look at Gerda's example! (Gerda, the cereal bowl is just... wow. I don't even know what to say about your latest update. Also--I don't think my L was saying it wasn't worth it to get H out of the house, but that trying to do that with some order from the court would most likely cost a lot of $ and would likely not work.)
Originally Posted by bttrfly
Ask the lawyer what you're entitled to. Ask to have stbx pay legal fees. Go for absolutely everything you are entitled to and settle for what makes sense to you, knowing that post D your stbx could and may not honor any agreements. You've been married over 10 years. You are entitled legally. It's not his decision, it's the law's.
I am trying to keep my head here, bttrfly. As job said, too:
Originally Posted by job
The law will state exactly what needs to be done and how it's done.
But I keep fast-forwarding to worst-case scenarios, then becoming angry that the law can't just step in early on and save us all a lot of money and time; it feels as if I am punished for asking for what I am entitled to. I have to jump through all these expensive hoops just to ask for what I am entitled to. It is crazy to me that I have had to hire a L to fight H's claim that I am entitled to nothing. I know that's not true. The law says that's not true. Yet here we are.
Originally Posted by bttrfly
I needed to do that in order to get to the real answer which was that regardless of outcome, what was most important to me 5, 10 or 20 years down the road was that I could look back and say with all honesty that the balance of the time this unfolded I took the high road, I fought for fairness, I made the best decisions for my son's wellbeing that I could out of the miserable options I was given, and I could be proud of my conduct.
One thing that is bothering me now is that I want to fight for fairness, but I resent that doing so will cost me all the money. How lucky I was/am to have somehow saved up the money I needed for a retainer. But what next? What is my deeper fear? That I won't know the right time to walk away? Or that I won't fight as hard as I should for fairness?
Even as I type all this I realize it is not exactly a good use of my energy, bemoaning what has happened and what is happening—I can't change any of this. Still, I guess this is an attempt to recognize my anger and process it. To allow myself some anger. (Thinking here about some of your thoughts on anger lately, Sage and may.)
Originally Posted by Dejavu6
Yep...the rewriting of history is pretty stunning sometimes. But it is what they have to do to feel “good” about what they are doing. It has nothing to do with you or what you know to be the reality.
Thank you for this reminder, Dejavu, and for the reminder that M is a two-way street. I'm so glad your current R is more honest and direct, and that you see possibility in it. I love that your MIL is supportive and that you've been able to create a friendship with her and separate your history with H from your current friendship with her. This reminds me of what DnJ was saying too—that MIL is not really family anymore (this is still hard for me to accept, because in my mind H's family became my family when we M). My motives for wanting to reach out to MIL now are not great ones, now—I recognize I just really want to tell her all the crazy things H has done/is doing, because I don't think she knows half of it. Ha. So I will table that for the time being and let it be a fantasy. Maybe, like wooba says, that desire for a friendship with MIL will fade.
Oh, and good practical advice from kml and may, too, which I appreciate very much.
Originally Posted by may22
On the L fees... can you put together a budget of how much you're comfortable spending? When you put your business-only hat on, and remove any emotional connection you have to the place, there will be a tipping point where it becomes more expensive to hang onto it than to move (factoring in the L fees, the expense of moving, increased rent, etc). I'd do the math and keep that number in mind.
I need some help with this part. That is, separating fairness and the creatures I care for here from the money side of all this. It would most definitely cost a lot of money to leave, in the short and long term, but what is the tipping point? Maybe I can reach out to a friend for help with calculations. Also, I think it's hard for people who don't live in this area (or people who do live here but aren't looking for housing) to realize how few options there are out there in terms of housing, especially rental. It's no joke.
Originally Posted by Sage4
Can I ask a tough question? Do you really feel responsible for H's feelings and actions OR are you scared of his feelings and actions?
This is a great question, Sage, and one I need to keep thinking about. At the moment it's less that I really feel responsible for his feelings and actions and more that I am surprised and offended, as wooba wrote. The social norm vs. MLC behavior thing. I recognize that he is responsible for how he reacts, that he feels what he feels, but that doesn't mean I have to share his reality. But I also think there is still a part of me that is subconsciously eager to take on blame, and I don't always realize it as it's happening. Like, just because he is doing all he can to sidestep any responsibility for the decisions he's made in his life, including marrying me and staying married to me, doesn't mean that responsibility then needs to be claimed by someone else, but, oops, look, I guess I felt the need to pick it up and carry it. Is that what that awful weight has been? It's like a rock I keep finding in my backpack and keep throwing out, to harken back to Sage's analogy.
For example, when I read DnJ's response to wooba's H's outburst--he's projecting, he's blaming, it's about him--it seemed so clearly true to me, and I realized that, though my H has done and said similar things to me, I don't always have that same ability to step back and see it for what it is. There is still a part of me that seems to wants to say... well, what if it really is partly about you? It's like I'm discovering for the first time just how willing I was to accept that H didn't have equal agency or responsibility throughout our M, and just when I think I've dug and dug and pulled that weed, I find more root; it spouts again. And then I have to remember to pause and see it for what it is--something in me I need to call out and work on. But also it seems clear I'm sometimes scared of his feelings and actions--more scared of what his feelings and actions could bring about in the (my) world. (Thanks for the encouragement to keep working on it, PLC! You are doing so well!)
Anyway, here's where I need to dwell for now, I think:
Originally Posted by bttrfly
My dear, the Universe is telling you something. Pay attention, please!!! You've done this once, you can and will be able to do this again, as often as you need to, either there or in another state. You're already being taken care of Cardinal, don't you see? Have faith. Trust and roll with it. In the struggle is the suffering.
and
Originally Posted by DnJ
Remember a lot of your concerns and fears will not come to pass. Sure, some will, and as they become reality the fear dissipates as the situation moves from imagined to real. And fear moves from irrational response to rational problem solving.
I think I've been writing this post for well over an hour. Glad to have stolen some time to reply to you all and, well, apparently it wasn't enough time to really organize my thoughts! But they're here, anyway.
Two posts in two days! IC asked if I was afraid of H's spewing because I thought he might be physically abusive or if it was something else. An echo of Sage's question. I've been thinking about that. I'm having a hard time articulating my thoughts. The psychological aspect almost feels worse to me—the gaslighting, the constant cognitive dissonance of living with someone who says the last seventeen years were not real. It seems he finds some other aspect to rewrite the longer this goes on, so maybe that's part of it. I'm always on high alert even when I think I'm not. It's not only that he says in so many ways our R wasn't real because he never really loved me or I never really loved him (and I know I can choose to trust my own experience, as difficult as that is sometimes); it's also that his actions and behavior reinforce that unreality. How could my memories be accurate, I think; how could he both be the person who did and said x, y, z over the years, and the person who's done and said all that he's done in the last two? It gets harder for me to grasp the more extreme his behavior gets. MLC and/or personality disorder, I remind myself, but I could do all the reading in the world and understand this intellectually and at the end of the day I can replay a good memory from our M in my head and compare it to what's happening now, and it just doesn't make sense on an emotional level. It's like my brain is still trying to integrate all of this information: H was a person who I trusted, who I felt safe with, and now H is the opposite.
IC's question. I don't think he would get physical, but when it comes down to it, I don't know this person; I can't say anymore with any confidence what he would or would not do. He's now outright lying in order to support this crazy idea that I defrauded him, or he's going along with his L's idea to lie, or he actually believes the lies. All of these possibilities are unsettling to me. I see what Sage was getting at in an earlier post—can I separate the emotion from this and just think of him as a person who really wants to avoid any responsibility of owing me anything, this is all a business deal for him, etc? I'm struggling with this, because he's willing to lie about something so personal and private as a means to this end, or if he has actually come to believe it... maybe it is more the fragmentation of this other I thought I knew as well as myself that scares me?
You are spot on about H. Yes, he behaves like a different person. It takes time for our emotions to sort that out. I have my feelings, thoughts, and beliefs about W and our M. And I have ones about XW - her current self.
I find most of the LBS’ confusion comes from trying (notice trying not doing, so it doesn’t work out well) to recognize these weird new behaviours from the spouse and reconcile those into our existing idea/definition of them. Instead, realize the new person before you and their behaviours.
Your past remains intact. Your emotions, and memories, of your H and M remain intact and valid and real - for they are.
The new and present situation is accepted for what it is. This take time and is a bit difficult to get here.
And yes, at first it is strange to hold two different views and beliefs about the same “person”, the same body. It’s within that has changed for our MLCers, they still look the same and even mostly sound the same.
You are right MLC-H is the opposite. You used to trust H. Now you cannot trust MLC-H. That is so confusing emotionally and intellectually until you see, and believe in, the different personalities.
Do not fall prey to his rewriting of his history. He’s finding new aspects and blames, the further he continues his path. Him saying the last seventeen years weren’t real, doesn’t make it so! You were there. You know better!
Deal with MLC-H in a business-like manner. Focus on you and your security, protection, and future.
And it’s ok to hope that H is somewhere inside and maybe will emerge again.
It’s a strange path to walk. Two different approaches, two different views, and yet one path, and one person - you.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
And yes, at first it is strange to hold two different views and beliefs about the same “person”, the same body. It’s within that has changed for our MLCers, they still look the same and even mostly sound the same.
It's just weird. It defies belief. And yet it doesn't, because I see it and believe it. But I still have fleeting moments of thinking, wow, this is so strange! It makes sense that there is confusion in trying to reconcile the MLC spouse with the pre-MLC spouse, because the two just don't fit together, even if at times they seem to. It's like when you think you've found the right puzzle piece, finally, but it's just a little bit off. Trying; doing doesn't work out so well, right?
I've only just begun this new phase with L, and it too is strange. I am able to keep everyone's advice in mind and separate emotion from business when I talk to my L, but then afterward, the emotion rises up. I hope it will get easier to focus on just the business side with time.
For instance, in just preparing to ask for what I am entitled to (as a starting point, that seems fair), I feel conflicted. Partly because I worry at every step I/we will do something to set the MLCer off (fine, that's expected), and it'll do so in a way that shuts down negotiation possibilities. But how to know the best way to go about protecting myself and doing so strategically so that he will think some things are his idea, and therefore be more open to them? Will L really understand MLCer behavior enough?
I understand more than ever that neither one of us will come out of this "restored," no matter who ends up with what. I understand that H will most likely perceive anything I do with L (beyond just agreeing to an annulment!) as attempts to hurt him or attack him or punish him, and I understand that is not my intention. But my gut reaction is to feel bad even so. I think he's in so much pain--I know I didn't break him, can't fix him, but I also know I have caused him pain in our relationship without meaning to. I am not the source of all his pain, but I have contributed to a slice of it. At the end of the day, this is someone I love(d), and I don't want to add to his pain. I suspect there is something about the L process that just can't avoid seeming adversarial despite my best intentions (especially if you are in MLC and wont to think everyone is against you, and you aren't able take responsibility for any of your own decisions). I know it was ultimately out of my hands to go this route, and that mediation wouldn't have worked because of the state H is in. I believe that my L understands where I am coming from and is representing me according to my values.
As my therapist pointed out recently, feeling bad isn't the same as doing wrong. I'm trying to keep that in mind. But I wasn't prepared for how sad this process would seem. Like, even if H suddenly gave up everything, (like your wife, D, to a lesser extent), it would not be a "good" outcome, even though I would benefit. It would still be sad.
I'm also trying to keep in mind some words from a podcast I listened to recently—compassion is not exactly the same as empathy, the guest was saying. I'm trying to remember how she explained it. Empathy is putting yourself in someone's shoes, is imagining what it would be like to experience what they are experiencing. It is, in some sense, taking on that person's suffering in that moment, and it can be hard to do all the time. Compassion as a practice doesn't necessarily mean you are identifying on quite the same level. Having compassion means you recognize another's suffering or pain, and you wish them to be free of suffering and pain, but it doesn't necessarily mean you take on that pain or suffering. bttrfly, this was stemming from a discussion of Brahma-Vihara, or the four divine states of Buddhism, so I have a feeling this is up your alley.
So I'm still working on keeping business separate from emotion, but it is harder than I thought.
My break is over--back to work! I have been able to steal a few minutes here and there in the last week to read some of your updates. I am still thinking of you all, even if I haven't been able to reply yet. I am holding you all in my heart.
You sound good. You really do. I'm so glad you have a good L that you trust. I also note that you didn't mention once in this post anything that H did or didn't do, and that also seems great, from my end at least. That even though you're dealing with all of this and still living in the same house, he can't knock you off balance anymore.
On compassion vs empathy, I've read a lot about empaths getting burned out. I took a course from the Compassion Institute and found it really helpful and interesting-- you might look into it. They have a number of online courses.
xoxo keep up the good work, C. You're so strong and amazing. M
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Yes, the behaviour of our once loving spouse does defy belief. I found myself thinking and saying I can’t believe what XW is doing. That wording was programming me to not believe what I was seeing. Seeing is not actually believing. Believe it or not.
So, I changed how I spoke and thought of the situation. I am dumbfounded by XW’s behaviour and what she has done.
Dumbfounded is much more accurate wording. And allows one to believe what they see.
It is normal to remain calm and businesslike while discussing things with the lawyer. They are after all pretty calm, detached, and businesslike, so we tend to be the same. Afterwards, our emotions do well up. It’s ok. Feel them and let them go.
Originally Posted by cardinal
For instance, in just preparing to ask for what I am entitled to (as a starting point, that seems fair), I feel conflicted. Partly because I worry at every step I/we will do something to set the MLCer off (fine, that's expected), and it'll do so in a way that shuts down negotiation possibilities. But how to know the best way to go about protecting myself and doing so strategically so that he will think some things are his idea, and therefore be more open to them? Will L really understand MLCer behaviour enough?
It is interesting to consider negotiating possibilities. However, until you actually get there it is hard to say how your MLCer is going to react.
A few things for you to consider. As a starting point, yes what you’re entitled to is good. However, you need not ask for what you’re entitled too. You are entitled to it. You state it. Not ask for it.
That idea carries into the back and forth negotiating as well. You state how you want things to be. The other party can agree or propose something back. Then it’s your turn to either agree or modify and re-propose. Repeat as necessary.
Point is there is no asking. You clearly state how you propose things are to be split. Clearly state. Businesslike. (Ok, it is like asking but more formal and binding if accepted)
If H counter proposes, then you can see where he is headed. It’s then you can explore his “ideas”. Right now his idea is annulment. Don’t think you are wanting to explore that. Right? Even if H gave up everything? (Just testing your views btw)
Originally Posted by cardinal
As my therapist pointed out recently, feeling bad isn't the same as doing wrong. I'm trying to keep that in mind. But I wasn't prepared for how sad this process would seem. Like, even if H suddenly gave up everything, (like your wife, D, to a lesser extent), it would not be a "good" outcome, even though I would benefit. It would still be sad.
Yes this is a sad process. No way around that. You need to feel it. Make time to allow your feelings. We don’t remain businesslike 24/7.
I am blessed and cursed with a XW who gave up everything. I don’t know of anyone else who experienced this to such a staggering degree. My L was dumbfounded. XW is rather famous, or more accurately infamous, in the legal businesses around these parts.
Was my outcome a “good” one? There is no good outcome from a divorce. All one can hope for and strive for is the best of a bunch of cr@ppy outcomes. It’s what you do with that outcome that turns it into “good”.
I did benefit financially. No doubts there. My kids lost their Mom. And to make matters worse they were thrown away. Of course I was thrown away as well. Most LBS are tossed aside so little surprise there. And yes, lots of sadness.
Compassion and empathy are different. Putting yourself into the shoes of someone so depressed, so desperate, so full of despair and pain and torment, is a sad draining experience. To see and feel just how bleak one must be to do what they have done.
Compassion, detachment, indifference, empathy, understanding, hope, forgiveness, peace, love, happiness, joy... This is an incredible path of growth we are upon. The sadness does give way. Sure I’m still sad once in a while. However, much better things fill and fulfill my life.
cardinal, you are on a great path with very good headings, IMHO.
Empathy, and all the other traits, is a skill. And like all skills, it gets better with practice and use. Seeing and understanding someone else’s viewpoint and emotional state helps in understanding and accepting our own. That is a big step towards lessening the sadness. After all, acceptance is just emotional understanding - your’s and H’s.
Keep doing what you’re doing. Be businesslike when needed. Be emotional when needed.
You so got this. (((cardinal)))
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I’m too full to even eat pie at this moment. Happy Thanksgiving, everyone! I thought of you all today. I hope you found some moments of joy and peace, and really felt whatever you needed to feel. What a strange year.
My L filed my response on the day of my deadline, which I realized happened to be exactly a year after H gave me a letter stating his intent to file for D—he still sounded somewhat normal in that letter. It was kind of a weak, I can’t believe we’re here, but I just need to do this in order to be happy letter. It’s pretty clear to me that if he had found that happiness in splitting, he wouldn’t be so angry. I hope he can really face his feelings and work through all the anger at some point. It’s hard to imagine living that way. My IC is pretty convinced H will blow up again soon. I don’t know if his L has shared my response yet, or what my L emailed. H hasn’t changed his polite demeanor at all. He does seem a bit like a ticking bomb.
May and DnJ, your notes mean a lot. D, I will be reading yours again and again through this process. It’s good to be reminded of this:
Originally Posted by DnJ
However, you need not ask for what you’re entitled too. You are entitled to it. You state it. Not ask for it.
I’ve struggled with a lot of feelings of guilt this week, even as I remind myself that all of this is H’s doing, and I am merely responding in the way I am required to. I let those feelings come and go—the blame, the guilt, the sadness. At least I can separate feeling guilty or feeling all the things H projects on me from believing those things. I might still feel them, but not believing them is progress.
I'm dropping in for a quick, unedited vent, because that's all I have time for at the moment. I'm working long hours, am not feeling as focused and sharp at my new job. I read something recently about the stress that's caused by living with perpetual uncertainty, as in the pandemic, how the brain has less capacity for high-level processes, shifts more into survival mode. It made me feel slightly better--oh, okay, it makes sense that I'm feeling less smart and less together because a) pandemic b) living with MLC H and c) I could go on. I'm so looking forward to talking to IC tomorrow. I'll also be meeting the rest of the small team I work with in person for the first time since I started two months ago—we're having lunch outdoors and at a distance. I'm looking forward to meeting them, even though I'm a little nervous. I'm struggling with doubts at how well I am doing at the job at this point in time and feeling like under other circumstances I'd be accomplishing more, faster. I'm also trying to give myself a break, because A and B and, I mean, starting a new job is always challenging for a bit, right? I think this is also partly because BD and ensuing 16 months have done a number on my confidence.
Anyway! The original reason I needed to vent is I guess tied in with all this--feeling exhausted after another long work day and exhausted from living with the MLCer kind of uncertainty, worrying about my family and Covid, etc. You all understand this perfectly. H is still acting as he has been for the last two months, polite and bouncy, for the most part. My IC cautioned me to be ready for his anger to return, and I've been a little bit on edge since I filed my response last week, and my L emailed his L. So far: nothing. Except a little Thanksgiving note from H I wrote about on DnJ's thread. And then today he showed me some possession of his that has sentimental value to him. It doesn't really matter what it is, just that he seemed to want recognition and a moment of connection, since I'm the only one here who really understands the history of the object and his relationship to it. I was in the middle of cleaning (broken glass, another story), and I paused to acknowledge what H was showing me. Part of me in my exhaustion wanted to just say, "Sorry, I'm just too tired to interact with you and pretend we are friends--remember that you filed for an annulment? How does that fit with this?"
But I acknowledged him, didn't let myself go down memory lane re: this object an our shared memories of it, just kept cleaning so I could get on to the next thing.
It's just so tiring to me that he's taking this crazy, bitter, mean action on the one hand, and then carrying on as if we're friendly roommates on the other. It feels like it's one other thing slowly draining my energy in the background, even when I'm not actively thinking about it. I think it still takes extra mental work to exist in my reality and not his. My brain gets foggy sometimes as it tries to make sense of the interaction: I am talking to a friend; No, this person is friendly for the moment but is not my friend; I am talking to the person who used to be my H; This person is on the surface acknowledging me as a human with a shared history in this moment; but this person is also not treating me with respect in every other way; I am friendly in return not because we are sharing a moment or because this is my H but because I am a kind person etc, etc.
Does this make sense? It's like my brain is the spinning wheel of death on a computer screen, all the programs open are frozen, and then I have to reboot. I told my IC last time that I catch myself slipping back to my default trusting, hopeful nature, in which I subconsciously assume H is no longer angry and will act rationally, and then I have to check my expectations. I understand that he is living multiple lives, from multiple compartments, and sometimes I feel like I am having to do that too, pretending like no L stuff is happening while we live together day to day.
IT MAKES SENSE. I just met with my IC (via phone) and I was discussing the same thing. My H is still here and lately, he has been making little chit chat comments to me, he ate with us for thanksgiving and has been friendly and cordial.
He also is aloof, comes and goes at least 50% of the time with no announcement of where he is going. I feel a little confident and then he does something that doesn’t make me mad at him, he told me what he wants, it makes me mad at me.
Tonight, he left around 5:15 and it is now 9:00. Where is he? I don’t know. When will he be back? I don’t know.
So Cardinal, my friend, I am hugging you from thE web. I totally get it. It makes sense. Just know, there are some of us that totally understand.
It's just so tiring to me that he's taking this crazy, bitter, mean action on the one hand, and then carrying on as if we're friendly roommates on the other. It feels like it's one other thing slowly draining my energy in the background, even when I'm not actively thinking about it. I think it still takes extra mental work to exist in my reality and not his. My brain gets foggy sometimes as it tries to make sense of the interaction: I am talking to a friend; No, this person is friendly for the moment but is not my friend; I am talking to the person who used to be my H; This person is on the surface acknowledging me as a human with a shared history in this moment; but this person is also not treating me with respect in every other way; I am friendly in return not because we are sharing a moment or because this is my H but because I am a kind person etc, etc.
Does this make sense? It's like my brain is the spinning wheel of death on a computer screen, all the programs open are frozen, and then I have to reboot. I told my IC last time that I catch myself slipping back to my default trusting, hopeful nature, in which I subconsciously assume H is no longer angry and will act rationally, and then I have to check my expectations. I understand that he is living multiple lives, from multiple compartments, and sometimes I feel like I am having to do that too, pretending like no L stuff is happening while we live together day to day.
I echo PLC, this totally makes sense to me. But give yourself a lot of grace right now, Cardinal. It takes an huge amount of psychic energy to navigate all of this. There are no neat compartments right now. It's all messy and convoluted and blurry and just HARD.
I keep thinking about something a woo-woo healer person told me: relationships shouldn't be this hard. And if they are, you need to exorcise them from your life because too much talented energy is wasted in the process. Relationships can change, and exorcising a R from your life isn't black and white. At the moment, in my own process, I am trying to find my mental boundaries within myself. Nothing to do with H, but everything to do with what I will and will not take up my own psychic energy.
At the moment, you have so much good going for you: a new job, the future that it will enable for you, physical security, your health. Feel those things that H triggers in you and move on when you're ready to. Eventually, your expectations will catch up with reality (at least that is what I am hoping for myself!).
It's just so tiring to me that he's taking this crazy, bitter, mean action on the one hand, and then carrying on as if we're friendly roommates on the other. It feels like it's one other thing slowly draining my energy in the background, even when I'm not actively thinking about it. I think it still takes extra mental work to exist in my reality and not his. My brain gets foggy sometimes as it tries to make sense of the interaction: I am talking to a friend; No, this person is friendly for the moment but is not my friend; I am talking to the person who used to be my H; This person is on the surface acknowledging me as a human with a shared history in this moment; but this person is also not treating me with respect in every other way; I am friendly in return not because we are sharing a moment or because this is my H but because I am a kind person etc, etc.
Does this make sense? It's like my brain is the spinning wheel of death on a computer screen, all the programs open are frozen, and then I have to reboot. I told my IC last time that I catch myself slipping back to my default trusting, hopeful nature, in which I subconsciously assume H is no longer angry and will act rationally, and then I have to check my expectations. I understand that he is living multiple lives, from multiple compartments, and sometimes I feel like I am having to do that too, pretending like no L stuff is happening while we live together day to day.
Yes, the cognitive dissonance is draining and keeping it civil in the face of this is adding to an already stressful situation.
You are not crazy. This is a crazy-making faux reality.
Keep focusing on yourself. Don't take the bait, positive or negative. He's living in his own private idaho. Try to look at him as a pod person - one who outwardly looks familiar but inside is a complete stranger. Hope this helps. You may want to think of that song every time he opens his mouth. Hard to be down when the B52s are in your head as an earworm.
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
Sage, bttrfly, PLC, thanks for your support. I am going on not much sleep, because H did hear from his L and came home majorly monstering last night just as I was trying to go to bed. It was pretty much what I'd expected--he repeated all the statements he's made before blaming me for where we're at now, for not communicating in our M or for the past year, said all his friends and his L told him a sexless marriage means he should get an annulment, said my L is now making up reasons he can't get an annulment (those reasons are called the law?), called me a b****, etc. etc. I felt trapped. He was in my room and my room doesn't have a door. My plan had been to leave the house for a bit if this happened, but it was late, and I had nowhere to go, and I knew I had a big day at work today and needed to get sleep. I said I wouldn't interact with him because he wasn't treating me with respect, but he just kept going. He again brought up this time post-BD when I was cutting grass outside and didn't ask him for some tool I could have used from the shed (why ask him for anything? I figure things out myself, take care of things myself now. I find it curious he is stuck on this instance. Translation: His identity is based on caregiving to the point of resentment and he can't stand not having that dynamic in place?)
Eventually he seemed to run out of anger and started talking about himself. I don't know if this will be helpful to anyone else dealing with a pod person. It was like Jekyll and Hyde--I saw him morph from monster back into an echo of the person I knew. He cried. He jumped from topic to topic but said, among other things:
--he knows he held all of his feelings in and when he couldn't do it anymore, everything blew up, and it was like I was collateral damage. He didn't intend it. He thought we would be M forever too. But then his unhappiness caught up with him and he had to kill part of himself in order to get un-stuck. He had to make a big change. He apologized. He talked again about knowing that was unhealthy and he can't push down feelings any longer--his IC worked with him on that until he had to stop seeing her because she was just pointing out problems he didn't have. He knows it's not healthy to supress feelings, so now he just gets angry when he's angry, even when he's in public, and other people can deal with it. (Translation: he's still pushing a lot down and wasn't ready to deal with that with IC. He understands he can have emotions now, but still doesn't know how to work through them, so just unleashes them on others.
--he still cares about me even though he's not in love with me (yet it's clear to me he doesn't understand what this means--to care about me would have meant filing for D when he said he was going to a year ago and supporting me with the money I would be entitled to. He still is going on about how I don't deserve his pension--well, you know, that is what I'm entitled to and someone who cared about me would understand that that was supposed to be for my future too.)
--he feels like he did everything for me in our M, gave and gave and gave, and I didn't love him the same amount; he wasn't as important to me as I was to him, and he kept waiting for me to give him what he needed (sex, whatever other unspecified ways I should have been putting him first?). He felt unloveable, he felt worthless. (Translation: This is partly the effect of the SSM, partly that he is way more insecure than I ever realized--it makes sense why I could never "convince" him that I did love him, that he was more important to me than X or Y). Then he started talking about how he does everything for everyone in his life (complained about two specific friends, one of which he's dropped), always has, and no one recognizes this or does the things he needs or shows him the same amount of love in return. (Translation: this is not just about me! This is about a whole pattern in his life he has pinned on our M. I thought of something Wayfarer wrote recently, about the nature of love, and I just wanted to say, "H, this is going to keep happening if you view all of your R as transactional. If you only perform acts of service or love or whatever because you expect somethin in return and then don't receive it, you keep building resentment, and those acts are no longer true acts of love or service." It's like *I* can see, at least in part, what's making him angry an unhappy, and I can see how that will keep happening beyond our M, but I know he can't, and I can't point this out to him.
--We should have been having sex in our marriage but we were just on our phones all the time (Yes, building and maintaining intimacy takes work. I really wanted to point out that I had had convos with him about not being on our phones when we were together, and he always got angry and refused to put away his phone. No point to this, I know.)
--He doesn't want Ls and he doesn't want any of these things his L is demanding I give him. He doesn't want to do it this way. (This is all his choice, and he can make different choices at any time.) He didn't file for a D for so long because even though he knew his feelings wouldn't change, he was scared. And then he filed for an annulment because his L told him he could and because he was angry. (He still talks about it as if I should accept it because it's easier an less expensive than a D--is confused when I suggest otherwise. Translation: still doesn't see me as an equal partner in the M who is entitled by law to certain things in D.)
At the end he apologized for the anger he'd confronted me with--he had just gotten news from L and was angry.
So, friends, what do I learn from all this? How can I better take care of me? I see that I've made progress in that I'm not completely drawn into the gaslighting. But I'm also not in a place where I can completely withstand it yet. The whole time I felt dizzy and confused and anxious and scared and still had that tendency to feel like maybe what he was saying was true, maybe he's right on some level...
I don't fully regret staying in the room, because all of this confirmed for me that he is far from okay--he is still working through anger in unhealthy ways and though he blames this on me, it's clear that he is just putting all of the issues with everyone in his life on me. He doesn't know to express his feelings in healthy ways, so he is still going to spew at will and see that as progress in that he's not holding his feelings in. I see so much of his dad in him here (he's quick to anger) and his mom (she's a major people pleaser and struggles with boundaries, but she realizes this, whereas H doesn't realize this about himself). He needs to get to a point where he can go back to IC, but who knows if or when that will happen. He's going to need help getting to a more healthy place in his life, and I am not the person who can help him.
I also think if I had left the house (to sit in my car in the dark?), the L situation would have escalated, his anger would have escalated, and instead he ended up talking his way to several apologies. (But it's not like this means he won't get angry again tomorrow and escalate things with L, so...)
At the same time, I feel like I was just his punching bag for an hour. He didn't know what to do with his feelings, so he unleashed anger on me. Then tried to process some of what's gone on for him in the last two+ years with me, all while saying I didn't communicate and didn't try to save our M in the last year and never talk to him anymore. I'm thinking of your H here, May, and how you don't have to be the one to do his work for him; you can't be that person. I wanted to say that I don't owe H conversation or small talk. I wanted to say that he fired me as his W, and he can't be hurt when I don't go out of my way to talk to him or accuse me of not communicating with him anymore. But this person doesn't understand things the way rational people do. Everything is just more justification for why I am at fault and he is not. He isn't capable of seeing how he starts a "convo" with calling me names and saying I don't deserve respect is the obvious answer to why I "don't communicate" with him. I get it--he's not capable of self-awareness. But that doesn't mean he gets to take his anger out on me. And of course this meant that I couldn't sleep, was physically feeling sick, and now am running on fumes today, with echoes of everything he said constantly playing in my head.
I did finally say something like, if I don't talk to you, it is not because I don't want to communicate, but because I have been hurt, and I need to protect myself now. He seemed to get that in the moment, but I doubt it will stick.
I am so sorry that he performed the Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde routine. You are going to see a lot of this along the way when he doesn't get his way. They flip from being "a bit normal to raving lunatics" in a matter of seconds) I found that the only way to deal w/my xh when he was like this was to change the subject very quickly. It throws them off balance.
Right now, you can't help him understand. Why? Because he's not being rational when he's that angry. You can't rationalize w/a nut.
He honestly doesn't have a clue as to what he wants. In his little mind, he thinks that he can use you as a punching bag, because you are a safe place to do so, but he doesn't understand that you are not a punching bag and you have feelings and they have been hurt. You must remember that his empathy chip is broken. You and only you are the sane one right now and you have to make your decisions on what the law states, not on his pity parties that tend to be coming out to play. They do not realize that there are consequences to every action that we all make and right now, he can't see the forest for the trees.
You handled yourself quite well...hang in there. I can't state enough that you will need to dig deeper for patience and you are not at fault for what is going on within his soul right now. You can't fix him because you didn't break him. You are a good person and I realize that you are replaying the conversation over and over in your head...but realize this...he's good at projection. You and only you know whether what he is saying is "live or memorex. Please do not allow his gaslighting or comments get to you. He's like a 2 year old, having a tantrum, because he can't get his way.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
I started a response to you the other day, but it got lost, and then PLC said to you the exact same thing I wanted to-- this is NOT your fault. This is all on him. And to be going through this trauma on top of the pandemic and a new job and everything else--- that is just an enormous amount of background anxiety that any human being would have difficulty coping with. My brain has been swiss cheese since the start of all of this. I really only feel in the last couple of weeks that I've started to get my brain back in the game at work, and am realizing that is only because I'm spending less mental energy thinking about my H.
I think you handled this situation well, so well. Don't beat yourself up over not walking away when it happened. It was great that you had a plan for how to deal with it but it didn't work out that way, and that is okay. Also, maybe go back and read some of your posts from the spring and see just how far you've come in reacting to something like this. I know you aren't feeling 100% today-- who would-- but I think this same conversation six months ago would have knocked you on your back for days. That no longer is the case. You're strong, you're perceptive, you see so clearly what is going on, and you're taking the steps you need to take to protect yourself.
For me, at least, some amount of listening to what was going on in my H's head at certain points was helpful. Some things I'd do when I was in the "validate at all costs" stage-- where I no longer am, and I don't think you're there either-- included physically relaxing my face, focusing on my breathing, and thinking things to myself with an interested look on my face-- helped. When you were in the sitch, did you notice anything you did that helped? If you can, I might think through and see what strategies you might be able to employ if it happens again and you aren't able to easily extract yourself from the conversation. Or, have some strategies in mind to help yourself exit from the conversation-- maybe I'm really sorry, I can't talk with you right now, I need to use the restroom, and go in there to give him a bit of time to cool down.
Originally Posted by cardinal
At the same time, I feel like I was just his punching bag for an hour. He didn't know what to do with his feelings, so he unleashed anger on me. Then tried to process some of what's gone on for him in the last two+ years with me, all while saying I didn't communicate and didn't try to save our M in the last year and never talk to him anymore. I'm thinking of your H here, May, and how you don't have to be the one to do his work for him; you can't be that person. I wanted to say that I don't owe H conversation or small talk. I wanted to say that he fired me as his W, and he can't be hurt when I don't go out of my way to talk to him or accuse me of not communicating with him anymore. But this person doesn't understand things the way rational people do. Everything is just more justification for why I am at fault and he is not.
I think you're doing so well, Cardinal. You're right in that there is simply no point in trying to say any of that to him. He can't hear it. (He had to leave his IC because she kept bringing up problems that he didn't have????? OMG.)
You didn't break him, therefore you can't fix him. In my case, my H and I are in a mutual truce of sorts where we don't talk about R stuff and I think it is good for both of us. In your case and where you are with your sitch right now, I don't see your H being able to respect any boundaries you have-- holding onto anger for you not asking him for help with mowing the lawn??? that is just SO WEIRD!!!-- and I worry a little bit about what comes next in your sitch with you two in the same house, and the pandemic making escape difficult.
Have you talked to your L about the process? His L is clearly a nut too and feeding his fantasy annulment scheme. I'm wondering what it will take for your H to see reason and drop the annulment BS so that you can have a real conversation or negotiation about an equitable D. I just worry that the scenario from last night has the potential to play out many more times, every time he gets an answer from his L that he doesn't like, and he has no-where to process it alone and neither do you.
Can you put a door on your room? With a lock?
Hoping you can focus on work today and feel a bit better. I echo job in really really really hoping you are able to brush his gaslighting off your shoulders like invisible dust and hold your head high. Did you read that passage on DnJ's thread about detachment and breaking off the coupling mechanism from the trailer? That imagery really stuck with me, and I'm feeling like right now what all of us cultivating detachment should be doing is caring for that broken loop-- not to repair it, but to sand it down and burnish it and repaint it so that it is whole again, and the hook slides right off with no-where to grab onto.
You are whole. You are worthy. You are loving and compassionate and this is not your fault. (((C)))
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Thanks, job and may. job, your reminders to dig deep for patience are always so helpful.
Originally Posted by may22
My brain has been swiss cheese since the start of all of this.
Thank you for saying this, may! This is such a good way to describe it. I'm glad you're feeling like you're getting back in the game. Lockdown is coming again (here it's already started), and I wonder how you're feeling about that. I guess since you and H are already working from home, maybe it won't change much. I've been reading your thread still even if I don't post, and I'll pop back over there.
And you're right to remind me to look how far I've come in reacting to something like this. The morning after my encounter with H, I woke up and had to post here. (I am so, so grateful for this place always--that it exists, that you all get what it's like to live through this , that you again and again offer up your wisdom and hugs and perspectives.) I had a full work day and a check-in/review with my supervisor that went really well. She confirmed that she was impressed with my work, which made me feel good—like I must be managing to do okay even with swiss cheese brain. By the time I talked to my IC a day and a half later, I could tell I've come a long way, because I was able to work through a lot of my feelings before I even talked with her.
I've also been reflecting more about things H said, not in a stressed-out kind of way, but in a putting-the-pieces-together kind of way. First there was sadness, because it was weird to get even a brief glimpse of the H I knew and hear that he had to kill part of himself to get out of the place he was in. I believe that. I've also been able to have some distance from this whole thing in a way I haven't been able to before. I've been re-reading some of the sticky links, going back to basics: MLC, depression, Amy C's words. Last year, I'd read these threads looking for confirmation. Was H in MLC? Part of me didn't believe it. Earlier this year, I wondered whether it might be a personality disorder. Why does it all suddenly make so much sense? As H talked more and more the other night, and as I reflected on his words after, it seemed as if he'd hit all the points of MLC, though at a slant. Where before I might have been too busy being confused by his projections, I was instead able to listen to what he was saying and what he wasn't saying, and it was a lightbulb moment, like everything, finally, made a kind of sense.
H feels fundamentally unworthy, unloveable, and every time he overextends himself for a friend or for me, every time he gives and gives and gives, it's an attempt to convince himself he is worthy of love. If I do X, even though I don't want to do it, they will love me and I will deserve their love. He expects something in return and doesn't get it, and he begins to resent those he loves. He begins to feel his gestures are under-appreciated, he is unappreciated. What does he expect? What does he want but never get? I think he wants someone to make him believe, finally, that he deserves love no matter what. That he is worthy of love no matter what. But no one can ever give this to him; he has to find it and believe it himself.
He's gained a little self-awareness since last year, at least momentarily--he apologized to me three times over the course of the hour. He can see that he was desperate to get himself out of the dark place he was in (which sounds to me a lot like depression), though he still thinks he has mostly left that place. I can see he is still there, and not ready for someone like IC to help him understand it and find his way out of it.
I can see his pain didn't originate in our R, though it was there the whole time, at first under the surface. It's been with H since childhood. H viewed our M through this lens, and his friendships through this lens. It's also there in his R with his mom, and I'm guessing in a more painful way with his dad, who he doesn't have much of a relationship with. I don't think he's connected any of this to them yet, and maybe that's a place he wasn't ready to go with IC.
I mean, this is like MLC 101, right? It's like it's been right in front of me the whole time, but I'm only now able to get it. I do believe there is hope he'll keep progressing along his path, though it may take a long time. I don't know where I'll be, but I wish somehow I could save him some pain now and later. I do think he will eventually understand that so much of this is internal and not external, but there is no way for me to help him see what I see. Self-awareness is hard--getting that distance from yourself is hard, especially, I imagine, when you are in the middle of an emotional storm.
H doesn't believe that I've put any effort into "saving the M" over the year and a half, but I think I must have learned some DB lessons if he somehow felt I was a safe place to let this all out, and if I was able to hear more than just the blame. I don't know where we go from here, may. He said he's not happy with the way this is playing out, and I know it is in his power to change it. It's possible he'll drop the annulment BS. And it's possible that he'll remember none of our conversation, that he'll start right up yelling about my L again next time I see him. I suppose I should get back to sanding my trailer--all that ongoing work toward detaching and strengthening my values and beliefs.
You did very well in the conversation with H. Validating and not arguing are key. MLCers are irrational and cannot see your point of view; they can’t even keep their own points of view straight. They ping ping around and Jekyll and Hyde often.
For what it’s worth, you did really well letting him vent. At first, when we are so hurt and lost, we must go dark/dim and place boundaries on such behaviour. Later, once we gain our center and strength, letting the MLCer vent (to a point) is actually a good thing. They need to burn the anger out of themselves. You saw the benefit of that as H’s behaviour changed throughout the conversation.
If you can listen and not take what he says too seriously, and definitely don’t take it personally, you will learn a lot of what is going on within him. H is projection upon you. He is lashing out, then backing off, because you are the safe place to land. His confusion is evident, as well as his desperation to find peace from his pain. Most definitely MLC.
H is still an emotional mess and his empathy chip is still broken. And I agree with you, I think H has made some progress; still a long way to go, but progress nonetheless.
Your own progress is very good. I’m glad to hear how clearly this all appears to you. It takes a certain amount of understanding to let go. Then compassion, empathy, ... you know, that inner work.
Time and space my friend. Give H plenty of both. Dig deep for patience and focus on you. Remember, H cannot even handle his own emotions, never mind anyone else’s. He needs time, and no pressure. And you are doing a great job!
Sanding the trailer. I’m glad I was a positive influence. (And for you too May)
Have a wonderful day.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
cardinal, I feel the same way. Sometimes I wonder how my life would play out if BD didn't happen... with all these emotional turmoil happening under the surface throughout the years of our M, I really was clueless.
I follow the holistic psychologist on IG and a lot of what she says about trauma, conditioning, and ego is spot on with the whole MLC thing also. Maybe you can also check that out.
One last thing is this - he might view you as a safe place to land, but do you still want to be his safe place?
For me, I no longer want to be that because the line is blurry and it's hard to set that boundary. A safe place to land sometimes inadvertently means a verbal punching bag. MLCers are not great at distinguishing the difference. lol!
Somehow it's nearly Christmas. Why, yes, I have been baking, may: ginger spice cookies, (the first batched sandwiched with lemon buttercream), chocolate shortbread with cacao nibs, and shortbread with fig jam—I have one more cookie delivery to make to a neighbor. I wish I could share some with all of you! Future baking projects include something with cranberries (currently leaning toward an upside-down cake) and sticky buns. I turned in grades and have one day left at job #2, and am off from job #3 until January. My vacation days have not been quite as action-packed as DnJ's so far! I bake, I cook, I read, get to winter garden chores I haven't had time to do. This is the rest I've been waiting for, after the craziness of the fall. I was craving bakery-style butter cookies with red and green sprinkles, so I made a half-batch just for me. I eat cookies for breakfast if I want to.
Lots to be grateful for, punctuated with some sadness too. Missing my family. Missing MIL (I did end up mailing her a short note with warm wishes at Thanksgiving, but haven't done anything for Christmas). Missing my old life when I had all this time at home. Missing old H a little.
I found the queen of our aging flock dead, which is something I'd been afraid of, since H had always been the one to deal with this kind of thing in the past. I hesitated for a minute and then called H to let him know she'd died—I found I had no expectations that he would comfort me or react in any particular way. I just felt it right to tell him. I made it through just fine. We only have two chickens left now, though, and it gets dicey, because you can't have just one chicken. Now I'm wondering how your chickens are, bttrfly, and your son, too.
I am grateful H has been mostly gone this week; the house has been quiet. Neither of us has family here, and the thought of spending Christmas week with him was bumming me out.
Originally Posted by DnJ
If you can listen and not take what he says too seriously, and definitely don’t take it personally, you will learn a lot of what is going on within him.
I thought I did pretty well at that, but then found myself struggling with a delayed wave of doubt and guilt a week or so after his "conversation." Could I really have done more after BD to show him I didn't want to lose him, did/do love him? His words got to me--his view that I didn't care enough, didn't love him enough. I know, though, no matter what else I would have done or said, he just wasn't in a place to see/hear/receive/believe any of it. Nor is he in that place now. I checked in on Sage's thread and really identified with her posts and others' responses, especially Gerda's. I realized I'd been spending so much time, once again, focused on H's pain and what I could have done better or different, when I should be focusing on me, acknowledging my pain too. I was spending so much energy on gathering all of this empathy for H that I forgot to have it for myself. This really hit home:
Originally Posted by Gerda
Worse yet, you'll apologize to H that he had to go through the pain of destroying you -- not directly, but by this simmering feeling you have, and which I recognize quite well.
I don't even think I realized this is what was happening until I read this. You'll apologize to H that he had to go through the pain of destroying you... Oof. I think this feeling is at the root of where I tend to find myself stuck--somewhere inside I feel I should apologize and apologize and apologize, even for the decisions H has made and is making. As if somehow I must have justified all of this.
Originally Posted by wooba
One last thing is this - he might view you as a safe place to land, but do you still want to be his safe place?
I've been thinking about this. I want to be a safe place to land, maybe, but for him? For him now? Not on a regular basis. Not when he's still flying with anger and confusion and all the other feelings clouding his view.
Well, I suppose I should get outside before it gets dark and make that last cookie delivery. Happy Holidays to everyone here! I hope you are all finding some joy in this season, and can enjoy a cookie or two, maybe even for breakfast. Kindly, if you're out there--I've been thinking of you lately, and I hope you are taking care. xoxo
Oh, the baking sound delicious. And eating cookies for breakfast. lol.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I thought I did pretty well at that, but then found myself struggling with a delayed wave of doubt and guilt a week or so after his "conversation." Could I really have done more after BD to show him I didn't want to lose him, did/do love him? His words got to me--his view that I didn't care enough, didn't love him enough. I know, though, no matter what else I would have done or said, he just wasn't in a place to see/hear/receive/believe any of it. Nor is he in that place now.
A little re-write for you:
Quote
I thought I did pretty well at that, but and then found myself struggling with a delayed wave of doubt and guilt a week or so after his "conversation."
The followup doubts and questions are normal. Could I have done more? Showed him more? Would it have made a difference?
H was/is in a place where he is unable to hear or receive any of that. His own emotionally pains are being projected upon you. He cannot handle his own emotions, so he throws them at you. “You didn’t care enough. Didn’t love enough.” Is actually about him - it is he that didn’t care or love enough. And he knows it and cannot face it.
A MLCer is torn apart. Desperate and full of despair. And they justify and blame their spouse. They have a lot of growing and healing to do, before they can look inward towards the actual source of their torment.
Whatever kernels of truth lay within his blame and justifications; deal with those. Become better. Grow and heal.
You cannot fight him directly. He isn’t even listening to himself. His view is what it is, for now. And you know better. Hang on to that. Believe that.
Merry Christmas my friend.
And if you have any “extra” baking, I like sweets at breakfast.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Well, now I have extra sticky buns, so feel free to stop by! Or I can mail you one. Three sticks of butter for 9 buns, plus honey, heavy cream, brown sugar, pecans... fitting for Christmas morning. Although I couldn't eat lunch after that!
Sticky buns aside, I wasn't feeling great yesterday, so I stayed in my pajamas and napped, read some books. I was dismayed and surprised when H returned in the afternoon; since he'd been gone for a week, I really thought he'd be gone through Christmas day. He's still in nice mode, wishing me Merry Christmas, changing the hard-reach air filter for the first time since BD, etc. From my outside perspective, these periods always seems to follow the anger and outbursts. It appears to me that he feels lighter, feels that he's gotten some of that pain out, and all is well with his life again finally. Then some pain will rise up inevitably and he has to beat it down again. That's the cycle. His uncle called to wish him a Merry Christmas, and I had to put headphones on. The call didn't last long, maybe five minutes. I miss his family. I miss all of our holiday traditions with them. His is a small family--really only his mom, dad and longtime girlfriend, uncle and cousins. At Christmas, I miss him being a part of my much larger family, which he fit into so well. Everyone loved him.
Originally Posted by DnJ
H was/is in a place where he is unable to hear or receive any of that. His own emotionally pains are being projected upon you. He cannot handle his own emotions, so he throws them at you. “You didn’t care enough. Didn’t love enough.” Is actually about him - it is he that didn’t care or love enough. And he knows it and cannot face it.
Didn't care enough, didn't love enough--I think he feels this way toward his mom and old friends as well and, again, all the anger and pain of it is pinned to me. The projection, when you put it this way, is also that he feels he really can't care enough or love enough to receive or deserve love in return. I see it's a whole tangled ball of yarn, not just me, yet I still have that urge to address what I can, what little part of the yarn might be mine. I saw his pain and not just his anger for once (even though I see that the anger is just a different manifestation of his pain), and it's made me miss him anew.
Post-BD, we are told to show up differently, to make changes for us, and to enact them, not talk about them. Did I do that? I stopped being defensive, I wrote the apology letter, I gave him a very thoughtful, heartfelt anniversary gift (these last two not DB recommended, but I chose to do both because the actions felt right to me, true to me and the changes I was committed to making, and in my case I don't think they made anything worse or better—they were more for me than him, though do I still have that hope that someday he will actually be able to see these gifts for what they were and receive them? Yep.); from time to time in the first six months I did try to make space for communication between us, a few times overtly by saying things like, "I don't want there to be any misunderstanding between us, so if you ever have questions, I hope you'll feel free to ask me," and "I'm here if you ever want to talk about ____" after his friend died; I showed up like a friendly neighbor when he did want to make small talk; I said nothing about his new habits of drinking and staying out all night. My big 180 for me was making a move on him (either before there was or before I knew about potential OW), because I was tired of being held back by my own fear of being vulnerable and not expressing my desire. This last one must have really surprised him, because he's mentioned it a couple of times since--"You never did anything like that in our R!" I don't know what to make of that. I think it's probably fueled his anger and hurt over SSM (the "It's too late now!" kind of thing), but it was probably the biggest action that I took to show myself that I wouldn't settle for SSM anymore, and that I wouldn't be held back by fear or doubt. (Also, as an aside, I was just thinking of how weird that would feel now, because he really does seem like a stranger most of the time, though if I squint really hard, I can still see the H I knew.)
Does all of that show love? It didn't register for him, consciously, at least, but does it register for me as love? Isn't love also what we *don't* do after BD? I never blamed the state of our M on him, never made remarks that might guilt or shame him for what he was doing, for walking away, for taking off his ring, for not filing, for dating someone else. (That doesn't mean that I sometimes don't still want to tell him how disappointed I am by all this). What if he actually doesn't remember a lot of this because he was just so out of it for most of that time? I guess technically he has the apology letter and the anniversary note, and he definitely remembers the move I made...
Is it really that I could have done more, or is that in trying to answer this question it's like I'm relying on someone who is momentarily blind to see all the love letters I've laid out in front of him?
Originally Posted by DnJ
You cannot fight him directly. He isn’t even listening to himself. His view is what it is, for now. And you know better. Hang on to that. Believe that.
He isn't even listening to himself.
Maybe what this comes down to is that I want to know, whether he does or not, that I was open, was willing to be vulnerable, to look at myself and make changes (and this is different than feeling like I need to pretzel in order to "win" him back). I do know all of this is true. What I guess I don't know is if I "showed" this as much as I could.
Sometimes I think of it this way: post BD, I've only had H's exterior to go on, and if I didn't know any better from reading and this place, I'd think H was living his best life and has no grief whatsoever over the end of our M (I mean, I still struggle with thinking that at times! Thinking of the exchanges I've had with Kindly on this). So does he see me the same way? Does he look at me--almost never crying in front of him since BD, always polite, seemingly confident, doing my own thing--and think the same thing? That the end of our M didn't really affect me? That it was a little sad but then I moved on, see, I really didn't love him that much!
I realize I'm getting sucked into this somewhat pointless hypothetical, as if there was anything I could actually *do* to make him see me differently while he's in this state. Do I need a DB 2x4?
Sometimes I just feel so dull and wooden around him, like I'm going through the motions. Good morning! Merry Christmas! I feel so reserved, so far away, like I am in the middle of a large costumed me, pushing buttons to nod my head or make words come out. I want to be me. I want to be real. Is it just unfortunate that there was some distance between us before BD, and there is no way to change that now? Just unlucky that I want to be real and can't do that with my current roommate, so that makes me feel like I'm not?
Oh yeah. Eating so many sticky buns and treats that one can’t eat lunch. What a great time of year!
H’s cyclic mood swings, anger/outbursts to nice and back and forth, do let his emotions out. It releases his pain a bit and he can return for a bit. You see this, his attitude is lighter, and he appears all is well again. And his inner pain invariably rises up once again and the cycle restarts.
This is good. He is releasing some anger. He is not blaming you, or at least not continual blaming you - those periods of nice. It’s good you are not continually in the line of fire, as it gives him time to consider other ideas. Like, hmmm cardinal hasn’t actually been causing me problems and yet I’m still upset, maybe she isn’t the cause, maybe I am.
H is working on getting a handle on his emotions and cannot handle anyone else’s right now. It’s not surprising he is not wanting to, or probably more accurately not able to, be part of your larger family - for the time being.
And of course you miss him, the old him. Especially when he pops in during these nice moments.
Stay your course my friend. Do more of what works and less of what doesn’t. And remember H’s path is still his. This crisis, he has to walk it, to the finish, and you weren’t invited along. Stay strong girl!
Originally Posted by cardinal
Didn't care enough, didn't love enough--I think he feels this way toward his mom and old friends as well and, again, all the anger and pain of it is pinned to me.
H doesn’t love himself.
One cannot love others until they love themselves. That is true for the MLCer, the LBS, friends, family, anyone.
Those suffering emotional pain and torment will project and blame their lack of self love and lack of self respect upon others in an attempt to cover up their pain. It will work for a while. It is a short term fix. Long term, one needs to look inward and fix themselves. And that can only be done by those willing to do it.
Consider our paths, the path of the LBS. We have pain, a pretty good motivator. We have willingness. We are open to advice and suggestions. And we do heal and move forward. We do realize we love ourselves and things fall into place. We stop blaming ourselves, we forgive ourselves, all first. Then we are able to do the same for our spouse. Although, I do find we partially start with our spouse first, then ourselves, then complete with our spouse - to be accurate.
Accuracy and willingness. Be accurate. Your mind is always listening, willing to listen, willing to change, and willing to accept. Be accurate and consistent.
Quote
...all the anger and pain of it is pinned toprojected upon me.
Use projected instead of pinned.
Your usage of “pinned” affects you. You unwittingly accept the blame - you pin it firmly onto yourself.
True, from H’s point of view, he is trying to pin it to you. Trying fails remember. No need to help his failing view along.
See this from your view point. See it accurately. H is projecting upon you. That is what is accurately happening.
Projecting is “trying to pin it upon others”. It is an imagined transfer of ownership. Do not make that real for yourself. Deal with what is real.
I do feel for your questions. The summary of your actions after BD, the doubts, the question - did I do enough? (((Hugs)))
I get it. I gave my W a Christmas gift, and had heartfelt words as well.
The MLCer’s path is for them. We are not part of it. Believe me, I know and empathize with how much you want to be a part of it. That choice is not your’s. Our spouses are dealing with pain and torment from long ago trauma(s) that have nothing to do with us. We didn’t break them, and we certainly cannot fix them.
We must step aside, and let them be. Some leave, like my W. A staggering percentage have affairs, W check. They become terrible parents and friends, oh my batting a 1000 here for W. They need to, and will, run down that path. If we are in the way, we will get mowed down.
You are questioning your love. Did your actions demonstrate love. Did it register for me? Do I love him? Or still love him?
Manipulation. We do not want to manipulate the path of the MLCer. Ever! Make changes for you. Focus on you. Do for you. Love for you.
There are many reasons for this philosophy.
- You are the most important person in this equation. You must be healthy and healed, for you live with you.
- You do not want to manipulate H’s course. You do not want that responsibility. If things go bad you will blame yourself. And by the way, this whole MLC path is a tangled ball of yarn all going bad. Let it go. Leave H’s path to him.
- With you not altering, or trying to, H cannot blame or project as easily upon you. This is good as well. Allows him to look inward.
- And from the above statement, you cannot alter his path really anyhow. He must walk it - fully. If you do happen to truncated it, he will fall back into crisis at a later time, and it will be much worse than now. The MLCer must finish their crisis, all the way to the end. And that has nothing to do with us.
- No one can see all ends. Any manipulation we might be successful at will have unintended consequences.
- You have much better areas to spend your energies.
Originally Posted by cardinal
Maybe what this comes down to is that I want to know, whether he does or not, that I was open, was willing to be vulnerable, to look at myself and make changes (and this is different than feeling like I need to pretzel in order to "win" him back). I do know all of this is true. What I guess I don't know is if I "showed" this as much as I could.
Perfectly normal questions.
Guess who can only really answer them?
Why are you looking to H for affirmation of your love? Or your openness? Or your changes?
Originally Posted by cardinal
Sometimes I think of it this way: post BD, I've only had H's exterior to go on, and if I didn't know any better from reading and this place, I'd think H was living his best life and has no grief whatsoever over the end of our M (I mean, I still struggle with thinking that at times! Thinking of the exchanges I've had with Kindly on this). So does he see me the same way? Does he look at me--almost never crying in front of him since BD, always polite, seemingly confident, doing my own thing--and think the same thing? That the end of our M didn't really affect me? That it was a little sad but then I moved on, see, I really didn't love him that much!
I am glad you know better. Know that H isn’t living the best time of his life and has no grief whatsoever. However, do you believe it?
What about the other side. Him seeing you polite, seemingly little sad, moving on, that I didn’t really love him. That is end of our M didn’t affect me. What do know? What do you believe?
Originally Posted by cardinal
Sometimes I just feel so dull and wooden around him, like I'm going through the motions. Good morning! Merry Christmas! I feel so reserved, so far away, like I am in the middle of a large costumed me, pushing buttons to nod my head or make words come out. I want to be me. I want to be real.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I realize I'm getting sucked into this somewhat pointless hypothetical, as if there was anything I could actually *do* to make him see me differently while he's in this state. Do I need a DB 2x4?
This is not a pointless hypothetical. And there is little you can *do* to make him see you differently.
A loving 2x4:
You are indifferent. You are grieving. You are projecting your numbness and resulting questions upon H as well as asking them of yourself. Focus on you. Do not mind read, guess, project, or assume H’s feelings, desires, beliefs, or path. Do find your’s.
It’s quite normal to feel wooden and working the controls of yourself from afar. Have faith, it is ok. It is along your path of healing and healthy. The numbness doesn’t last. However, while it is around, and the noise of H is muted, make the most of it. Discover you and your beliefs. Strengthen those you like. Alter or discard those you don’t.
Do you see how your questions are much less about H and more about you. Very good. Very healing.
Your questions of the end of your M and the ease of which it passed and how you moved on. “Does he look at me...” is you questioning yourself. By the way, you moved forward not moved on. Use that. Be accurate. Moving forward is healthy.
Did my actions demonstrate love. Did it register for me? Do I love him? Or still love him?
Did I do enough? Did I show enough? Did I do all that I could?
All questions that proceed letting go, and the doubts of doing that. (((Hugs)))
The real question you are finding and asking - Can I, should I, do more?
The numbness, letting go, it’s not the end. It feels like it. However, it is far from the end of things.
Can I do more? Yes. What do you believe? Find those? Are you proud of them?
A belief. A conviction. Something you are willing to die for!
Craft them, alter them, strengthen them. The very noblest ones.
They become something you are willing to live for!!!
Originally Posted by cardinal
I want to be me. I want to be real.
Living pushes back the numbness. You become.
Love yourself. Ask the hard questions of your values and convictions.
Do I like my values? Am I happy with how I’ve lived? The choices I’ve made? The things I hold most dear? Do my beliefs serve me and what I desire? Am I proud of myself?
Do I love me?
Strengthen and alter. Become. Forgive.
H will follow or he won’t.
You live and love your best life.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Thinking of you (and of course the sticky buns ;)). I am processing your last post and DnJ's... I don't have much to offer beyond just letting DnJ's words really sink in. And that from my perspective of knowing you here, you are a truly incredible person. Giving, loving, thoughtful, present. Sending love your way.
xoxo May
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Cardinal, I meant to respond to your last post but got sucked into my own little nightmarish project (which you can discover in my own exciting thread).
I totally understand your thought process and reflections and feelings and longings and all of that because I did just what you are doing. I don't think there is a way to not do it. But if you are ever able to go on faith alone, have faith in this -- he can't understand any of those things you wish he would understand, and he can't see you clearly, or anything that happened or is happening. A day can come when he will but right now you are a little bit like the adults in Charlie Brown to him - wonh wonh wonh wonh. He knows you are talking about something relevant to him and that you think he is listening and he might even make a movement in the direction you are pointing. But he really doesn't know what you are saying and he can't care about you.
Believe me. I had CANCER and it made no difference. My H sometimes tried to pretend he cared about me during that time period. But I only saw HIM, the real H, once, and I assure you it was not the same guy as I saw before and after that moment, for all the rest of MLC. My H woke up for 8 hours. When I came out of surgery (mastectomy), I looked into his eyes and it was him. I held his hand that whole night and we talked and he had EMPATHY for me, he could SEE me. It wasn't even that we spoke of anything specific. It was just HIM. And then he was gone. In the morning, I woke up, and I knew. His eyes were MLC again. He was pacing the hospital room. He pushed me to leave the hospital quickly, so much so that I almost fainted on the street. In the car he said, "No, things are going to be different, you are the mother of my children," as if he was trying to convince himself. But I knew he wasn't in there anymore.
Later I found out that while I was in surgery, he was texting the OW who he had not spoken to for a while til then. (I think he was trying to come back to the family but couldn't make himself do it.) And he started back up with her again as I was recovering. I remember I had to drain those post surgery bags all the time and I started doing it myself because I couldn't bear to see him trying to do his hateful duty to me.
Slowly you realize that all your agonizing, thinking, trying, telling yourself you want to be able to say later that you did everything you could, gave it your all, etc., that none of it really matters to them. All that you are doing will only matter if/when your H can see you again. Like DnJ always says, stand for your values for YOU. But the reason for that for me is because you can only do it for you, since it won't change anything about your H. Your standing will only mean something to your H when the day comes that he can see you again. But you can't do anything to make him see again. And he may or may not remember what happened at that point. So be the woman you want to be but let him go and know that the guy that looks like him is not him. If he ever came back, he would know you again, he would have empathy for you and he would appreciate who you are as he did before MLC. During MLC he is living on another planet and he can't hear you from there.
Lots of love to you and wishes for a CLEAR New Year full of peace for you and a memory of how wonderful you are, and how your life can be a joy full of things that you love to see and do and be, on your own.
Last edited by Gerda; 01/01/2104:38 AM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
When I read your posts, I sometimes have to stop and read slower because at moments my empathy is so tuned in to exactly what you are going through, it is as if I am reading about myself. I feel so much of what you are feeling, what you are going through and all I can really say is that I empathize and I am right there with you.
I know you read Gerda's post on my thread, the one about being forced to watch as someone rips your heart out and then wanting pity and understanding for doing so. Those were some of the wisest words I have ever read and it gave me a new lens through which to process everything.
I have had some recent interactions, similar to yours, where there was some enlightened messages from H and some spewing in a conversation. And in that conversation (I read a similar theme in yours), I was finally able to see that my contribution to our current situation is analogous to an inch of oil floating on top of a deep well of water. I am responsible for that inch of oil, but I am really not responsible for the rest of the well. And whether that well water was generated from within him or due to childhood trauma or anything else really, is not really important. What is important is that I am only responsible for the oil floating on top.
I hope you have a great weekend, I am thinking of you!
If I don't stop and post now, who knows when it'll happen! Going to full-time at my new job in January has been a big adjustment, even though I was essentially working full-time in the fall between two other jobs. I am really enjoying the job, and the team is amazing. They are such different (virtual) company than H--enlightened, optimistic, emotionally-aware people, much like my friends here. I feel so lucky to know them and to work with them. I've realized I need to balance my passion for the job and for learning new things (and that tendency toward wanting to be perfect at a new job) with the rest of my life, since when I really care about something I seem to want to give it 200% (like single-handedly saving my M! ). My brain seems to want to either spend time trying to solve fun work problems (productive) or H "problems" (not productive), and though I don't get stuck in the latter as much, I'm seeing that I need to work on retraining my brain to just be and not always have to be in problem-solving mode.
Both of these things are easy distractions from, for instance, settling back into my creative self, rediscovering my project that was thrown off-track with BD and going suddenly from PT work to FT. I have been taking small steps back, though. I did get over that dread of opening a new document today, I did write some new sentences for Gerda.
Many times I've thought about posting something here when I've been overwhelmed with feelings, and I usually think of what you all might say in response, and eventually, yep, feelings are fleeting, as DnJ taught me, they pass. I did the New Year's self-compassion mediation challenge from Ten Percent Happier, and I've been really enjoying taking 10-15 minutes most days to meditate with the app. One week I listened to the same short talk on anger every day. Ah, so this is what it feels like to experience anger, sit with it, and not act on it, I thought. This is why H's new method of exploding anger instead of pushing it down is maybe a change for him but not an altogether healthy one.
No mention of anything D related since H's blow-up and then sharing of some of his feelings after Thanksgiving. No updates from my L. Nothing moving. (Having H as a roommate is allowing me to save money, though--I definitely underestimated the taxes that would be taken out of my paycheck, and that again means I really need to stay in this house.) He's been quite friendly for the last couple of months, which is also sometimes hard. Pre-BD, he used to be completely anti-social media. Since then, he has embraced one in particular. I never look at it, but apparently one of our friends still does. She never brings it up, but she did last night, and I had to ask her--based on just this one curated glimpse you have into his life, does he seem different to you? Uh, yeah, she said. He reminds her of her 21-year-old sister, except she is more sober and sane. She said it's clear he thinks he is living on some timeline of what he perceives to be liberation, but is really just delusion and denial.
I gotta say it was a little bit gratifying to hear her say that, to hear that she gets glimpses into his life outside this house and it is obvious to her what it is and isn't true. She is insightful and even states away can see that he is not actually living his best life. But also... sad to hear.
One of H's November comments that I've been unable to completely shake, as my last post here attests, is that I didn't do enough/didn't really do anything to save our M. Classic, right? The LBS-can't-do-anything-right dilemma. Yet it still got to me, and I still found myself wondering (trying to problem solve an unsolvable problem at 3 a.m.)--did I do enough? Did I love enough? Etc etc.
And then, in the car the other day, it hit me, and it seemed so obvious in a way it hadn't before:
What does a loving, caring spouse do when their spouse says they're unhappy and want a D? They are open to counseling--they express a desire to go and really listen to their spouse, to really understand where they're coming from. Check!
They take a good hard look at their own behaviors and perhaps even go to IC to understand their own patterns and learn how to see themselves more clearly and be a better partner. Check!
They take responsibility for whatever they could have done differently and resolve to make positive changes, and they express this to their spouse. Check!
That is all stuff I could control, all pretty common-sense stuff. I think most objective bystanders would say, oh, yep, you did all the right things. What I can't control is H's inability to really see/feel any of this, or to believe I love(d) him.
I don't know why I was suddenly able to understand this, or why I've struggled so much to see this. I finally felt that need to prove something fade. I mean, once you say a hard no to counseling or working on the M... do you really get to say the other person didn't do enough? This feeling of confidence may be fleeting too, but at least I can go back and look at this simple list in black and white.
It seems I am in the small percentage of the country that is not covered in ice and/or snow at the moment (and I'm jealous, though not of the rolling blackouts). I actually cleaned up the garden a bit this weekend, and the tulips I planted in the fall are coming up. I made lemon shortbread cookies to keep in the freezer (not really a deterrent to eating three at a time, evidently), a loaf of bread in my new batard-shaped banneton, and a cranberry apple crisp. I felt a bit low yesterday and when I checked in here it was as warm as ever. There is so much love, kindness, and support to be found here. I do keep reading even when I find it challenging to carve out time to post.
Your checklist is right on point. He didn’t check out because he didn’t feel loved. He checked out then he looked around for something to excuse his behavior.
Thanks, kml! Actually, your post has me thinking--I believe he did check out because he didn't feel loved. He recently said he felt like no one loved him then, not me, not his friends. I can't know of course, but I do think he was depressed. I think he felt horrible, and the only way to escape was to really escape his life as he knew it. Then, in his mind, all his unhappiness was due to my not being able to love him. I blamed myself too at first. Now I am beginning to understand these feelings of unworthiness were probably there in some form all along, and they will continue to be there until he looks inside and begins to really understand where they come from. It does seem that he was trying and is trying to stop his pain (as opposed to examining it, understanding it).
Sounds like you are doing really well Cardinal. I think you are right about your H but, as usual, regardless of the reasons, the results are still the same. You never know...he may still figure things out. In the meantime, you keep doing you. Your baking sounds amazing!!! (((HUGS)))
Your checklist is spot on. And yes H felt unloved because he currently could not or cannot love. He is in crisis. Something from deep within consumes him.
My XW told me she thought she was going crazy, felt so unhappy, and took her final chance at true happiness. Lol. She is blind and blissfully ignorant to her own denial.
Originally Posted by cardinal
This feeling of confidence may be fleeting too...
Yes, it will flit, if not reinforced.
So, make that knowledge and confidence a deep held belief.
A conviction, a value, is self-renewing. It almost effortlessly reinforces feelings and thoughts. Imagine how you will feel when you believe this new understanding you now have. And that is meant in the literal sense as well. Imagination is the first step to creation. You want to hold this as a truth, imagine it, and strengthen it.
You have a keen problem solving mind. It has being mulling over things and found understanding. Now you just got to believe your own thoughts. Allowing your thoughts to influence and alter your values is a slow process.
Understanding, compassion, empathy, forgiveness. The LBS journey, truly is a blessed opportunity, one which we never would have asked for.
You are doing amazing!
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Thanks, kml! Actually, your post has me thinking--I believe he did check out because he didn't feel loved. He recently said he felt like no one loved him then, not me, not his friends. I can't know of course, but I do think he was depressed. I think he felt horrible, and the only way to escape was to really escape his life as he knew it. Then, in his mind, all his unhappiness was due to my not being able to love him. I blamed myself too at first. Now I am beginning to understand these feelings of unworthiness were probably there in some form all along, and they will continue to be there until he looks inside and begins to really understand where they come from. It does seem that he was trying and is trying to stop his pain (as opposed to examining it, understanding it).
yup. My ExH also. He constantly told me that he didn't feel that I really loved him, and at the same time he would say that he is unworthy of love. I don't even think it was a difference in love languages, it's simply the fact that these people need to figure their sh1t out first. If they don't look within, it's always someone else who's ruining their day.
Mine told me over and over that I didn't know how to love him or be a wife and went through the list of all the men I had inappropriate relationships with, including a famous actor who used to come to our business and was half my age, and three priests who counsel me. He used this to justify his choice to connect with old girlfriends for lunches, etc., and then that just got worse and worse. In the early days, I felt terrible for what a bad wife I had been because I thought I must have done something that appeared inappropriate even though of course there was NOTHING there, and I committed myself to what I saw as a sort of penance of waiting while he did those things.
I have been watching videos on narcissism and narcissistic abuse and they are really fascinating. You will see all your lists checked off. One guy called Sam Vaknin does videos that are a little odd and very scientific but spot on. His major premise has to do with the narcissist seeing every act of love you attempt to undertake as threatening to his "perfect object," which is himself. It's basically Gollum and the ring. It was kind of Jungian and hard to understand but once I understood what he was saying, it was a pretty perfect way to understand the hatred and spewing. Because as we all know, no matter how much hatred and spewing there was, we kept thinking it was an anomaly that would soon be over. And I know for some of us, the MLCer does heal and come back. But for some of us, the NPD was always there, and the MLC just made it run wild. The Jungian sort of outlook this guy had explained exactly why, the more I loved, the more he hated. That process was part of my journey of becoming a Christian -- I was basically enacting the cross, so I suddenly understood it. But now, seven years later, I realize that H is also literally in hell. He can't receive love and will do anything to beat it back, like a demon terrified of the light. And that that is his choice, even if it very sadly comes from the abuse he suffered as a child. But that I don't have to stay in hell with him.
P.S. Goodbye, my friend! Today is last day before Lent.
Last edited by Gerda; 02/16/2103:59 PM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Now you just got to believe your own thoughts. Allowing your thoughts to influence and alter your values is a slow process.
It's simple--just believe my own thoughts! Believe the ones I want to reinforce and discard the others. Deceptively simple sometimes.
Originally Posted by wooba
I don't even think it was a difference in love languages, it's simply the fact that these people need to figure their sh1t out first. If they don't look within, it's always someone else who's ruining their day.
DejaVu and wooba, yes, the common thread is that we may look within, but we can't force them to, as much as we, okay now I'm talking about myself, think that might help them and not just the M. It has taken me a long time to begin to believe that H feeling unloved was not all due to something I did or didn't do. As my IC said the other day, I could have spoken his love languages perfectly, and he still probably would have found something that seemed to tell him I didn't love him enough, because those feelings of unworthiness are and always were a part of him that existed long before I came along. It's his job to begin to understand where they come from from and that they aren't caused by me.
Gerda, I hope you are enjoying your break from the boards! In some ways I think it would be easier for me to understand my H's behavior if I thought he had always been a narcissist or BPD (as I entertained for a while when I was trying to make sense of his behavior for myself). I sometimes feel I could write him off then--like, I would never want to be in a R with this person again! Of course I know it wouldn't be that simple.
I keep coming back to my H saying he had to kill part of himself to break free from the pain he was in, and it tracks so much with the kind of thing he later said when we got back together after I broke up with him when we were dating. He had, then, the awareness that he was just doing stuff to stay busy and outrun the pain of our breakup. When he said recently that he had to kill part of himself during BD, it both reminded me how ingrained this pattern is for him and also renewed my hope a little that eventually he will again realize that all the running he is doing won't protect him from pain or fix his unhappiness in the long run.
It was easier for me to long for the day when this would all be over and I would be living alone again when he was angry and irritable. He's been somewhat generous and kind for the last couple of months, and it's easier to miss the good in him that I still believe is there somewhere. I've had dreams for the last couple of weeks where we're reconnecting in some way. And then I feel naive for still thinking this would ever be possible. One of my far-away friends texted me recently to ask me about something she saw him post on social media. I haven't followed him for over a year now, so I don't see anything. I asked her if he seemed different to her, just via his curated social media persona, and she said something like her 20-year-old sister's posts are more sober and sane, and it's clear he thinks he is living some kind of timeline of what he sees as liberation, but is really just in delusion and denial.
Like, I know he has a long way to go. And I know if he doesn't do the work there is no way he would ever be a capable partner to me or anyone else. I'm not sitting around waiting for him, but I am still living with him, so what does that mean?
20 months post-BD, 4 months after he filed and nothing happened we are back to living as friendly roommates. My IC has pointed out this is part of the same pattern as when we were M, in that he was extremely avoidant and I fell into that pattern too. The difference is when we were M, I didn't realize how much he was shoving down or how much of a people pleaser he was to the people close to him. Now I'm at least aware of the pattern.
But I'm not comfortable with the idea that I'm still just part of reenacting a similar pattern with him. I also don't know what else I'm supposed to do, if I don't want to leave the house and I don't want to try to push the D faster myself (partly because I'm still thinking he'll be more open to agreements if he feels like he is in control, partly because I don't know that I could really move anything along at this point myself anyway, since the ball is in his court).
I do feel like I participate in this alternate reality with him, where we're joking and sharing food and no one mentions this whole crazy annulment/divorce thing that's going on in the background.
It's like unless he can make himself really angry, angry enough to, say, finally file for an annulment, he shoves all that down and just focuses on staying busy with his new friends and life is good.
He created this alternate reality. I guess I resent a little that I should be the one who is constantly saying, let's communicate about this D and how long are you actually going to live here? Doesn't that presume that I could pop his alternate reality bubble or cause him to move through this process in any other way than he chooses to? Any time I've suggested mediation or tried to in some way to move things forward, nothing happens.
But I also realize part of me doesn't want him completely gone from my life. Part of me thinks isn't it possible he also doesn't want to face what it would mean to move out and never see me again? And the other part of me says, he doesn't care about that. So I'm in this place of feeling a little delusional myself. By participating in this alternate reality, I'm maybe just prolonging my grief. While I'm still living with him, I can't fully move on. My other friend said something about it being like living with a teenager who has their own life and has no interest in yours. That hurt, but it does feel true.
Mulling all that over on this sunny, windy day. Sending warm thoughts to all of you in colder places!
I think this is a really good series of questions for yourself, worthwhile to dig into more.
Thinking about you participating in this alternative reality with him...I wonder a bit what DnJ would say to this. Physically you are sharing a space and a life together, or at least parts of life. I don't know that you necessarily are sharing your perceptions of reality, in that you seem to have a grasp on reality and he does not, and this little cocoon of make-believe seems to be working for him right now.
Here are some things you said that stood out to me:
Originally Posted by Cardinal
But I'm not comfortable with the idea that I'm still just part of reenacting a similar pattern with him.
Originally Posted by Cardinal
He created this alternate reality. I guess I resent a little that I should be the one who is constantly saying, let's communicate about this D and how long are you actually going to live here?
Originally Posted by Cardinal
I also don't know what else I'm supposed to do, if I don't want to leave the house and I don't want to try to push the D faster myself (partly because I'm still thinking he'll be more open to agreements if he feels like he is in control, partly because I don't know that I could really move anything along at this point myself anyway, since the ball is in his court).
Originally Posted by Cardinal
But I also realize part of me doesn't want him completely gone from my life.
Originally Posted by Cardinal
By participating in this alternate reality, I'm maybe just prolonging my grief. While I'm still living with him, I can't fully move on.
These things taken together say to me that you are not wholly comfortable living with him in your current circumstances, even as fulfilled and busy as you are now with your work. I didn't pull any of your words around where he is or may be or may not be in his journey, because... I don't think it matters, much. You seem far more detached and healthy in talking about it than you did before, which is really wonderful to see. But I guess to me what it all boils down to is... what does CARDINAL want? What life do you envision for yourself, with him out of the equation? Maybe he heals eventually and maybe he does not. As you know, not within your control.
But for you... is this what you want from your own life? Making jokes and sharing food and pretending that he isn't also trying to erase your marriage and lives together as it if never existed? He seems so broken, to me, to have done that, and even more so that he can live all these days right in your same house and have no awareness of how his actions may have affected, currently affect, or will affect you. Teenager does seem like the right analogy, just so blindingly self-centered and oblivious. I don't think it is what you want, and the resentment and discomfort you are feeling is telling you that. I would attend to those little feelings you have. They're worth listening to. And the last thing you want is to get to a place where that negative energy starts to build up and spill into the gratitude and self-compassion you've been cultivating.
The house has always been this big thing that was a non-negotiable for you, connected in a lot of ways to your even living in the place where you live (at least, I recall you saying that if you gave up the house, you may have to move back to your hometown as you wouldn't be able to afford to stay where you are now). I think you went through a process before of thinking about leaving and decided to stay. I want to challenge you-- what if you did move out? What then? What if your landlord came by tomorrow and said, hey, so sorry, I put the house on the market and when your lease is up, you'll have to move? I guess a little part of me does suspect that the last couple of lines I pulled are connected to the house... maybe part of the reason you are so attached to it and cannot envision finding another workable living solution is indeed because you aren't ready, or don't think you are ready, to have him completely gone from your life.
But I do also think that you may be prolonging your grief... or maybe not that, but delaying living your own best life. I feel like he's kind of this net that is weighing you down, Cardinal. Maybe you aren't completely trapped in it anymore but at least one of your wings is still enmeshed. What would it look like for you to shake off that net and fly free?
(((Cardi)))
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Thinking about you participating in this alternative reality with him...I wonder a bit what DnJ would say to this.
Hi, may! Me too--I have been wondering what DnJ would say.
Originally Posted by may22
I would attend to those little feelings you have. They're worth listening to. And the last thing you want is to get to a place where that negative energy starts to build up and spill into the gratitude and self-compassion you've been cultivating.
I haven't been feeling much resentment or anger lately. When I do, it's fleeting. It wasn't until IC suggested in some ways I was participating in this same pattern with H that I started to feel more uncomfortable. Isn't my whole journey, well, part of it, about learning to change the patterns I don't want to have in my life anymore? Up until she said that, I've been for the most part okay with feeling like I'm living my own life while H is living his, which just happens to include us living in the same house and H's prolonged inaction on our D, apparently. Last night I was thinking that if H and I were in a relationship, we would be repeating a pattern of communicating on one level and not communicating on another, but one difference is that we're not in a relationship anymore, right? So am I participating in this pattern or in his reality, or am I merely inhabiting a corner of it simply because we live in the same house? Like if we were a Venn diagram, I overlap his circle, but I don't create the stuff in his circle.
Or by not continuously acknowledging to him that it's weird to go weeks living like friendly roommates while this unresolved D hangs in the background, am I hiding from reality too? Am I reinforcing his reality?
I'm resisting this in part because I just don't see it as my responsibility anymore. If we were in a relationship, I would need to do my part to change things, but we aren't. I'm tired, and I don't want to put any more effort into this D than I have to. I gathered all my financial information, now let him do some work.
The other part of all this is realizing that it's halfway pleasant to interact with him on this friendlier level. I've missed that. It does seem like after he filed for an annulment and then, a couple months later, talked to me about regretting that, a layer of the anger and resentment he was directing toward me has dissolved. I could be wrong; and it could come back, but there does seem to be an ongoing effort on his part to connect to me on a human level that wasn't there before. And, okay, he's started making croissants and giving me my own stash, and they're really good. Ha.
That part should be separate from any decision making I do, separate from the intellectual car, but I do acknowledge that it is there.
Originally Posted by may22
I guess a little part of me does suspect that the last couple of lines I pulled are connected to the house... maybe part of the reason you are so attached to it and cannot envision finding another workable living solution is indeed because you aren't ready, or don't think you are ready, to have him completely gone from your life.
This is part of the question, right? How much of my behavior is actually driven by this? I do feel like it's a layer but not the main driver. But what if I'm wrong?
And the other thing is that losing all financial security I thought I had with BD and having to find a way to support myself in this place has made me very, very wary of moving, because it means an even crazier amount of money spent on rent and less of the already tiny amount I'd be able to save if stayed here on my own. I also appreciate that I can build up my emergency fund while still living with H. If I lived in a different place and could easily move to any number of other similar houses for the same rent, would I? I want to say I would have done this by now.
What could/should I actually do, short of moving out? What action should I be taking vs. what is just an illusion of action? What is leaving him to deal with the choices he's made on his own versus not doing enough to take control of my life?
I guess a first step would be checking in with my L to see what happens next if he continues to not do anything. Every time I think about emailing her I just see dollar signs!
Hi dear Cardinal, how lovely to read your sweet voice here lately. I empathize so much with your thoughts and experiences and am sending lots of hugs.
Originally Posted by cardinal
And the other thing is that losing all financial security I thought I had with BD and having to find a way to support myself in this place has made me very, very wary of moving, because it means an even crazier amount of money spent on rent and less of the already tiny amount I'd be able to save if stayed here on my own. I also appreciate that I can build up my emergency fund while still living with H. If I lived in a different place and could easily move to any number of other similar houses for the same rent, would I? I want to say I would have done this by now.
What could/should I actually do, short of moving out? What action should I be taking vs. what is just an illusion of action? What is leaving him to deal with the choices he's made on his own versus not doing enough to take control of my life?
One thing that we see in these MLC/WAW/WAS's is clear cognitive dissonance. Which is often viewed as a detriment to a whole human; but is in its fundamental origins cognitive dissonance is a survival mechanism. What if we were able to shift it a little and use it to our benefit, maybe not complete cognitive dissonance, but a more evolved cousin to it... such that in your case you are able to say "this is an interesting situation I find myself in. I am not really in a R with this person and also maybe not just in a roommate situation either, due to our past. But we are living together at the moment and for the time being it is beneficial for me; there is more good than harm so I am OK continuing in this space." (Obviously this only works if it is true. I do not advocate for staying in an abusive situation or even a situation where you are walking on eggshells or being treated poorly or in any circumstance where the emotional or psychological toll is too much.)
I love the Rilke quote that says:
“Don’t search for the answers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not be able to live them. And the point is to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps then, someday far in the future, you will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer.” – Rainer Maria Rilke
Maybe right now, this situation serves you. Maybe you don't need all the answers ('when will H actualize the D? When will I have to move? Will I have to move? What is he thinking? I am participating in his alternate universe? If so, should I be?).
My son said to me at dinner last night, 'Mama, is the saying true that all good things come to an end?' I had to stop for a minute. He is very existential and at the same time very literal; I did not want to give him a binary answer and have that be 'The Truth' for the rest of his childhood. And the answer that came to me is that rather than thinking of it as 'all good things come to an end,' it might make more sense to think of 'everything is constantly changing.'
And if we look at life through that lens, we release expectations (because everything is going to change anyway) and gain freedom to live as intently as we can for that moment, nothing more and nothing less.
Happy Friday Cardi, I hope you have a relaxing weekend that includes admiring blooming daffodils in your garden. xxx
What could/should I actually do, short of moving out? What action should I be taking vs. what is just an illusion of action? What is leaving him to deal with the choices he's made on his own versus not doing enough to take control of my life?
I feel like you need an internal shift. Prayer and meditation works for me. Loving kindness meditation and asking for guidance, then going about your life and waiting for the answer is what comes to me as an answer to your question.
M 20+ T25+ S ~15.5 (BD) BD 4/6/15 D 12/23/16
"Someone I loved once gave me A box full of darkness. It took me years to understand, That this too, was a gift." ~ Mary Oliver
It is interesting when we look at ourself participating in someone’s alternate reality. Like the Venn diagram you spoke of; our views overlapping their’s and a new shade of colour or reality emerging.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I have been wondering what DnJ would say.
There is no alternate reality. There is no absolute reality either. Reality is what one makes it. We all create our own heaven or h3ll or anywhere in between, and it is always changing and shifting. Like your circle on the big Venn diagram it interacts with many other realities. Perceptions, feelings, thoughts, beliefs, all at different times getting influenced, shifted, strengthened, altered, changed as other people’s ideas and lives mix with your’s.
You are not participating in an alternate reality of H. You are just living your life, which currently has more of H in it than it has in sometime.
The feelings of alternate come from the oddness of H’s behaviour. H’s behaviour, his present suppling you a stash of croissants for example, is not of his norm as of late and is therefore not expected. You are “expecting” the divorce/annulment stuff is waiting there in the background and he is just getting ready to spring it upon you. Ah, expectations. Even when the non-meeting of them is more a positive, we still get confused, anxious, and start to feel a bit of resentment.
It has been months and H is still living there, and not seemingly pursuing to end things any time soon. So, what’s the big deal? Isn’t this a good thing? It could be. It may not be. Point is, don’t manipulate his path. Walk your path.
Ideas of pushing forward a D have a subtext of manipulation about them. Like trying pushing H forward. You have gathered your data, let H do the heavy lifting now - if he truly wants to. The standing LBS’ path is about healing themselves and outlasting MLC. H is still in the home. Be roommates. Outlast this thing.
To that end, you focus upon yourself. You keep living. You GAL. You continue to have those friendly dinners and banter. This is not some alternate reality, this is your present reality. And it’s a good one! Live it. Enjoy it. Enjoy the croissants. Lol
Joking aside. If H is to emerge or awaken, none of us know how, when, or what path he would walk. Leave that to God. Do not manipulate his path, you do not want that responsibility. Presently your’s and H’s paths have converged somewhat. You are not looking to divorce, don’t need to have financial protection at the moment, are prepared if things did take a turn, so enjoy this time, and remain pressure-free towards H and yourself.
Originally Posted by cardinal
Or by not continuously acknowledging to him that it's weird to go weeks living like friendly roommates while this unresolved D hangs in the background, am I hiding from reality too? Am I reinforcing his reality?
Yes, you are reinforcing his reality. And you are altering it as well.
In truth, if you were to fight against it, that would reinforce it even stronger and prevent the possibility of your influence altering his perceptions. Pressure-free; time; space; those allows H to feel differently. Allows him the time and space to possible see differently. A pressure-free environment has a much better probability of H adjusting his view and moving along his path. Your circle affects his Venn diagram too - when he is calm enough to see it. Nothing you do affects his path, and everything you do affects it.
Are you hiding from reality? No, you are seeking the very existence of it.
Originally Posted by cardinal
What could/should I actually do, short of moving out? What action should I be taking vs. what is just an illusion of action? What is leaving him to deal with the choices he's made on his own versus not doing enough to take control of my life?
Questions are pretty common and a good sign of healing and a healthy person. I find questions arise from one challenging their beliefs and ensuring their convictions serve them and are wanted. Perhaps that resonates with you and your current place along your path.
Speaking of your path, I’d place you in limbo. Detached, had indifference, feelings returning, and can find indifference when needed. It’s a weird place, to be honest. One you probably have never really had the need to experience, or previously experience at such a scale and duration.
It is pretty clear there is still a void of feelings. A strange pull to wonder if your life is going in a good direction. Nature abhors a vacuum and our emotional self looks to fill the hole indifference has created. Certain feelings will look larger than they really are. Will feel more real, more true, and much bigger. Do not make decisions based upon feelings - especially when the void of indifference is warping your reality.
This limbo can hurt. Do take solace, this limbo is not punishing, for it is a choice of your’s. Seeing this as a step along one’s path removes much of the sting and pain from existing in a limbo state. We embrace this choice, this limbo. We embrace our life, as it presently is, and live it greatly!
Perhaps, you can see your situation through such a lens. Perhaps you can let go the timeframe. Embrace the timeless hope. Embrace your present life. Be patient and let God.
The future is thankfully unknown, and will reveal itself, in good time.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I've been wanting to check in here (warning: long post), and of course Wooba’s post echoes somewhat how I’m feeling these days. Work is busy—everyone on our small team has been working hard to meet the deadlines for our current project. I’ve been able to pick up a few overtime hours, and it’s been satisfying to really see what we can do when we all pull together. I have also been thinking about a what’s next question—do I have career goals/work goals? I really like your commitment to staying present, wooba, and I appreciated your thoughts on work and life as well DnJ. I’ve been able to return to writing on the weekends now—it’s the least time I’ve ever had to write, but I’m making it work. And after nearly two years away from writing, it feels wonderful to be able to do it finally. It’s like I can be my full self again.
Then I read Eagle’s latest post—feelings creeping back, hope there again! That’s where I find myself today. One of those days.
I think I mentioned here at some point that last fall, when H’s anger continued (around the time he filed for an annulment), he at one point declared that he would not be filing taxes jointly this year. I suggested to H that would probably end up just costing more, not less as he expected. I stressed about that, figured out what I would need to withhold so as not to owe any money, consulted with a tax advisor, and accepted that H would do what he would do. I checked with H before I filed a month ago, just to make sure his plan was the same. I filed.
And I’ve mentioned H has seemed to process a lot of his anger—this year is different than the last 18 months or so. It feels like the chip on his shoulder toward me is gone.
Anyway, both notes are background for what happened this week. H went to file his taxes and was—you’ll never guess—aghast to find he would owe nearly four times what he would owe if we had filed jointly. He called me from the accountant’s to ask if, by chance, I hadn’t submitted my taxes yet. I told him I had. H of last year would have found a way to blame me. Instead, H admitted he should have looked into things and this was all his fault. He hung up.
I felt bad for him. I mean, it wasn’t an ungodly amount, but it would have wiped out my small savings. I googled just to see, and found out we could file an amended joint return so that he wouldn’t owe so much. Reader, maybe I should have just let him live out the consequences of last year’s anger and impulsiveness, lack of foresight. That was on my mind. But I also felt like if I could help him at no cost to myself (he would pay me back the refund I was owed and would pay his tax liability), why not? It felt like the right thing to do. I would have wanted him to do it for me, had the situation been reversed.
So I offered up the possibility. I talked to my IC afterwards briefly, and she appreciated that I factored my values into the decision, but also suggested it could also be a way of enabling him. Well, then I questioned my decision even more. I thought of what people might say here.
Fast forward to today—H set up another appointment with an accountant, said we could ride together if I wanted. I haven’t been in his car with him since shortly after BD. I drove myself. There was never any question H would pay for everything and make sure I received the refund I was owed (in writing too). That surprised me. His gratitude surprised me. We sat side by side for an hour, the longest since BD, and it was fine. Except the office ended up being right across from the place where we bought our wedding rings, so I was remembering that day so vividly, and then as I had to sign the line for “spouse” over and over on our joint returns, I cried. I don’t think he noticed—masks are good for that. He held the door open for me, walked out with me, thanked me again, and then hugged me. It didn’t seem like a, “I’m just so relieved not to pay more money!” kind of thing. He seemed to genuinely see that I cared and was offering a kindness. Like it was a small act of vulnerability on his part for him to hug me. I was so surprised. Never in a million years, I would’ve said. We both headed home in our separate cars, but first I cried. That hug. I wasn’t prepared, and I’ve been in a funk all day since.
Like, remember those feelings you put away, remember that hope? Still there! It’s hard to still care, to realize how much I still care. Sometimes I want to search until I find some love letter he’s written someone else, something, anything, that would maybe erase the rest of my hope, because when I am reminded it’s there, it’s painful. It’s sad because I miss him and I can’t do anything about it but accept that things are the way they are. I don’t have expectations that he will change—oh, geez, though, just realized I have expectations that he won’t change. He’s just so good at distracting himself.
Cue return of all the feelings, all the stories that serve me and all the ones that don’t, like if he’s dating someone else now, he must’ve never really loved me, of course he’d want to be with someone else, SSM, etc etc. I told myself that those stories might be back temporarily, but I don’t have to believe them. (Helpful to read DnJ’s response to Eagle re: OW/OW2 in this regard.)
Cue feelings of I don’t want to be signing any more official papers that remind me our M is over. (Why? What does it change? I know. And yet seeing my name next to “spouse” on tax forms made me cry!)
Anyway, that’s where I’m at. Feeling weird. Feeling tender. Baking a cake this weekend. Love to everyone here!
I felt bad for him. I mean, it wasn’t an ungodly amount, but it would have wiped out my small savings. I googled just to see, and found out we could file an amended joint return so that he wouldn’t owe so much. Reader, maybe I should have just let him live out the consequences of last year’s anger and impulsiveness, lack of foresight. That was on my mind. But I also felt like if I could help him at no cost to myself (he would pay me back the refund I was owed and would pay his tax liability), why not? It felt like the right thing to do. I would have wanted him to do it for me, had the situation been reversed.
That is a forgiving view. A view which serves you.
Originally Posted by cardinal
So I offered up the possibility. I talked to my IC afterwards briefly, and she appreciated that I factored my values into the decision, but also suggested it could also be a way of enabling him. Well, then I questioned my decision even more. I thought of what people might say here.
I say, and did just say, well done girl!
Offering to help had no cost to you. And not offering would have had a cost, a toll.
It would be enabling, if he was still angry, had a chip on his shoulder towards you, twisted this into blaming you, and so on. He didn’t/doesn’t. And you helped.
I am proud of you cardinal. The pull of letting him suffer his consequences is there. And if he had behaved in the stubborn blameful manner of the last years, I’m sure you would have left him to his deserved desserts.
You only control you. You realized last year his lack of foresight and prepared for paying more. You travelled in your own car to the appointment. You did so good walking your path.
H’s gratitude was genuine. And it sure doesn’t sound like it is from paying less income tax. He was vulnerable and you didn’t attack him. A common fear of the betraying spouse I would suspect. The LBS extracting their owed pound of flesh. As I’ve often said, forgiveness is not a widely held belief or value in current society; it is rarely displayed. Vengeance and tit for tat is the usual response. As much as H’s behaviour surprised you, your’s surprised him.
Consider his view point. He knows he doesn’t deserve such good natured treatment. Yet you did just that. And for your own values, not to manipulate. Actions based upon one’s beliefs and convictions are the ones that matter, the ones that truly have the best chance of influence. Sincerity in thought and heart matters.
Originally Posted by cardinal
Like, remember those feelings you put away, remember that hope? Still there! It’s hard to still care, to realize how much I still care. Sometimes I want to search until I find some love letter he’s written someone else, something, anything, that would maybe erase the rest of my hope, because when I am reminded it’s there, it’s painful. It’s sad because I miss him and I can’t do anything about it but accept that things are the way they are.
Oh the flickering flame of hope. Nice to see it is still there.
We all must unpack those put away feelings at some point. It is part of the path. Part of finding acceptance.
I submit a clarity to you:
“It’s hard to still care, to realize how much I still care.”
No, it is hard to not care.
Attempting to find something to erase your hope, to not care, to help ease the pain. (((cardinal))) I understand. However, that is a cheese-less tunnel. Acceptance, aside from accepting the way things are, includes accepting your feelings.
I miss J. Every. Single. Day. And I live and love my life. One can do both. Along with holding themselves and others accountable. Being responsible. Having integrity. And so on. Life is not simple, and is, at the same time.
I believe in hope. Life is much better looking through that lens, in my humble opinion.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I don’t have expectations that he will change—oh, geez, though, just realized I have expectations that he won’t change. He’s just so good at distracting himself.
You hit the nail right on the head.
Letting go causes a void and one oftentimes unknowingly grasps the opposite of that which they are letting go of. Expectations - hope with a timeline/deadline - of the opposite are commonly grasped. Letting go of the feeling and thought that H will change, completely makes sense to pick up that he might not. And that slowly turns into an expectation he won’t.
Having no expectations is the same as expecting/accepting anything (without the timeline ). In expecting no actual outcome, all possibilities become valid. And possibilities is where hope lives.
Letting go of our expectations also removes our usual binary view of things. And there is a myriad of possibilities. Never in a million years would you have expected what H just did. And yet, he just did it. Rather interesting, the limits we place upon our own view of things.
Of course this interaction would cue up all manner of mixed emotions. You know feelings will settle.
The answers to those “what’s next” questions for both work and life are most worthy, and your recent interactions have highlighted some most important values of your’s to ensure you include.
The future is quite unknown, where possibilities abound. Continue walking your excellent path towards your worthy goals.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Cardi, wow sweet one, you have come so far. Your update was beautiful to read; it oozes gentle self-confidence and wisdom. You are trusting yourself, acting on compassion mixed with rationality. And the biggest sign of your progress is you asking yourself about the bigger questions in life: what do I want out of my profession? What's next? Where from here for ME?
And the hope component? I feel you, sister. One thought that I have been marinating on is 'what if hope never goes away completely?' I know intellectually that I have to move on with my life, find the best path forward for myself, regardless of H's role in it. And that is my primary fuel at the moment. So the hope element may just be something I have to learn to live with; it waxes when he is 'nice' and wanes when he turns back inward. My growth: moving on to my best self cannot be dependent on the feelings of another human.
DnJ has been instrumental in helping me understand that feelings come and go. So it makes little sense for me (us) to ballast our boat on another's feelings. A dear friend of mine shared an interested concept that he recently read about: we tend to mistake the strength of our emotional reactions for the strength of our logic. Let logic prevail. Allow hope to be a presence, but allow the future (logic, growth, safety) to eclipse hope. Both are allowed their light, but one is a little more powerful than the other.
And I will leave you with another quote shared from the same friend that touched me (and brought hope in a different sense):
"Now every time I witness a strong person, I want to know: What dark did you conquer in your story? Mountains do not rise without earthquakes." -Katherine MacKennett
Hugs, Cardi, I am so proud to know you and your story.
"Now every time I witness a strong person, I want to know: What dark did you conquer in your story? Mountains do not rise without earthquakes." -Katherine MacKennett S
love this quote - it says so much in so little words.
Just wanted to pop in to say hello, you're amazing, I'm thinking of you. So proud and impressed at how you handled all of this. Your strength and growth are inspirational.
And... you're human to have feelings of sadness and hope. They're authentic and I love that you acknowledge them and honor them and baked yourself a cake.
Sending love and hugs your way.
xx M
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
Gosh Cardinal. I am glad you decided to help him out. I think staying true to yourself and your values regardless of the other person’s actions is so, so important. Long after the hurt feelings fade, you will want to look in the mirror and be proud of how you acted during this time. You, my friend, will be able to do that in spades. I hope you make a really yummy cake and enjoy every bite. (((HUGS)))
Thanks so much, friends, for your kind words and encouragement. I do feel good about my decision, that I was at a place where I could recognize all of the motivations and feelings that went along with it, but have enough distance to know that ultimately I was really making it for me. All of you have helped me along to this point, and I am so grateful.
Originally Posted by DnJ
However, that is a cheese-less tunnel. Acceptance, aside from accepting the way things are, includes accepting your feelings.
I miss J. Every. Single. Day. And I live and love my life. One can do both. Along with holding themselves and others accountable. Being responsible. Having integrity. And so on. Life is not simple, and is, at the same time.
Originally Posted by Sage4
I know intellectually that I have to move on with my life, find the best path forward for myself, regardless of H's role in it. And that is my primary fuel at the moment. So the hope element may just be something I have to learn to live with; it waxes when he is 'nice' and wanes when he turns back inward. My growth: moving on to my best self cannot be dependent on the feelings of another human.
DnJ, thank you, as always, for sharing your thoughts and your feelings here too. Your response and Sage's words too got me thinking about how maybe the next part of my path is learning to live with hope, to accept that it is. To accept that I still miss H and love him, and also I am living my life. Does this hurt sometimes, is there sadness alongside the contentment? Oh yeah. I don't think I can avoid it. I have to instead accept it.
Because the opposite--not feeling any sadness--is hard to imagine. I keep asking myself, how can you really love someone and then, one year, just not love them any more? I mean, obviously, this happens, but it hasn't happened to me. As hard as this is, I don't want to feel nothing.
H continues to be conversational, friendly, and today was cleaning his room and brought me an old notebook of his, from around the time we moved here together but before we were married. That notebook used to live in the living room, and shortly after BD I flipped through it and found a letter that he'd been writing to a friend before we were married, all about how well I understood him and how he was so happy to be with me. So that memory hurt. Then H showed me a funny drawing in it, that's all. It brought me right back to that time period, though, before we were M, to all that was then, and as soon as he left the room I was crying. It feels like he has no trouble bringing up stuff that happened in our past, like it's all a slightly fond, distant memory. Like since he's moved on completely, these memories or references are not fraught at all. Like he assumes I'm on the same page, fine with being friends and roommates and wanting nothing more. But for me, all these little references are kind of gutting, all the more because from what I see, they don't carry the same (any) emotional weight for him. It hits me all over again: he doesn't love me. And then my reaction highlights the fact that we seem to be in very different places. I start questioning again--how can he move on so quickly? What if he never really loved me? But I felt it--I saw it. Then how can it just disappear? How can 17 years just be all in the past, no big deal? MLC or not, maybe the simple answer is he loved me once and just doesn't love me anymore. But how can that be? ...
And I'm stuck in this particular little circle. I can acknowledge the pain and sadness, that it's just there, alongside everything else. But it's also just so dang hard to love this person and enjoy his company now but see the contrast between how he interacts with me, how I interact with him, and how I feel inside.
Two other things come to mind, though. One is that I was listening to an interview with a writer I love the other day, and she said, it often seems to be that people who are married the longest are psychologists or therapists or people who study human nature in some capacity, because they understand that at some point in any relationship you are probably going to believe you married the wrong person, but that doesn't mean it's true.
And also my friend who likes to say that in a long relationship or marriage, you probably won't feel like you're in love forever, but you have to recognize that feelings change all the time, and that doesn't mean you should base your decisions on them. (Is she quoting DnJ? LOL.) You may feel like you don't love your S for a year, but that doesn't mean that love won't return.
I've never had trouble finding love for H, even if some days I don't like him much, you know? Not in our M and not now. I know that is a strength of mine even though it hurts.
I'm always watching just so you know but things are so different over here, I rarely feel I have much to contribute. Sometimes I feel too young to have much of anything wise to say. And sometimes I feel too lucky to put in my two cents in sitches that drag out like they do with a real MLC. But this struck me and I couldn't pass by without comment.
Originally Posted by cardinal
Two other things come to mind, though. One is that I was listening to an interview with a writer I love the other day, and she said, it often seems to be that people who are married the longest are psychologists or therapists or people who study human nature in some capacity, because they understand that at some point in any relationship you are probably going to believe you married the wrong person, but that doesn't mean it's true.
And also my friend who likes to say that in a long relationship or marriage, you probably won't feel like you're in love forever, but you have to recognize that feelings change all the time, and that doesn't mean you should base your decisions on them. (Is she quoting DnJ? LOL.) You may feel like you don't love your S for a year, but that doesn't mean that love won't return.
I've never had trouble finding love for H, even if some days I don't like him much, you know? Not in our M and not now. I know that is a strength of mine even though it hurts.
This was something H and I circled over and over as we R'd and still circle over and over again. He had never been in a relationship that lasted more than a couple of years before me. And He didn't really have an example of long standing love. He only had one in his life and there was an A there too. But they moved past it, but I can't say how much the LBW has actually moved past any of it. She still brings it up. It's been almost15 years since.
I however had my grandparents who are going on their 59th year. And my aunt and uncle who each married their high school sweet hearts. They are hitting mile stones this summer respectively at 30 and 25 years. I think a huge part of the reason I am the way I am is because I've learned to love through the hard stuff my entire life. I learned that you will not always like the person you love. You will not always love the person you love in the same way. That you will both change, and hopefully grow, and the best you can both do is wait for the other person to catch up or at the very least be willing to be supportive during that time. You will get hurt, and frustrated, and sometimes even apathetic in your relationship but if you always choose to turn inward instead of outward things will fall back into place, maybe not the the same order, but back into stead foundation.
I've seen all of those relationship bloom and wither, and storm and shine. I think people who don't understand that love is verb not a noun don't truly understand that love doesn't equal happiness. Love is selflessness in the name of a promise, a promise to weather the storms even the ones of our own creation. It's an agreement to do the hard things and make the hard choices not because it's what we want or because it makes us happy, but because it's what must be done. H said he never understood what selfless love looked until he watched me carry on with my life and the girls life bending over backwards to make things stayed as "normal" and as stable for them as possible. And how he was so awful to me and yet I treated him with kindness and never gave up on him. This isn't the way I would've wanted him to learn how long term love works. If I could've chosen a different path for us I would've. But this is the one we took.
Not everyone had the wherewithal or the ability to be self sacrificing to make love last. H apparently isn't. Maybe he never was. But you cardinal, you have what it takes. Take comfort in knowing that all that your heart has been through you are a person who can weather the storms and make it for the long haul. That takes strength, courage, grace and and insurmountable faith in humanity. How beautiful of a soul you are because of that.
Acceptance is pretty neat. Yes, there is still sadness and hurt; yet it is greatly diminished - accepted as it were.
Hope returns and endures, and morphs somewhat; less for what our spouse might do and more for who we can/will become. It’s such an interesting path to walk.
I agree, you do not want to feel nothing. Even indifference still has some feelings, although greatly attenuated. And indifference is not a permanent situation; like all feelings, it is temporary.
Originally Posted by cardinal
It hits me all over again: he doesn't love me. And then my reaction highlights the fact that we seem to be in very different places. I start questioning again--how can he move on so quickly? What if he never really loved me? But I felt it--I saw it. Then how can it just disappear? How can 17 years just be all in the past, no big deal? MLC or not, maybe the simple answer is he loved me once and just doesn't love me anymore. But how can that be? ...
And I'm stuck in this particular little circle. I can acknowledge the pain and sadness, that it's just there, alongside everything else. But it's also just so dang hard to love this person and enjoy his company now but see the contrast between how he interacts with me, how I interact with him, and how I feel inside.
We do get stuck in that wee circular path for a bit. And we all need a certain amount of understanding before we can let go.
I am going to pass on a few things, a few items for you and your beliefs. You are free to challenge them, not just blindly accept them. In fact, I encourage you to challenge them for that creates strong beliefs.
MLC is real. As unbelievable as MLC is, is the very crux of the problem - it is so unbelievable (at first). You, of course, have not used the word unbelievable in quite some time (so very well done by the way since our minds are always listening). You are working on rationalizing H’s irrational behaviour which is leading to so many questions and challenges of your observations and beliefs. Rationalizing is part of gaining that understanding we need and seek.
MLCers become opposite of who they once were. They are driven by such emotional pressures and torment they just run from everything - not to anything, from everything.
MLCers are emotionally stunted and need to grow up. They are stunted from the time of their trauma(s). For most, this is during their informative years, so they are emotionally rather immature, and compound that with the crisis level emotional problems they are running from. These lost souls have their emotions cranked to eleven and cannot handle anything or anyone else. They have no empathy. An emotionally troubled individual is unable to reach out, to feel, another person for they cannot understand their own feelings never mind another’s.
MLCers do not not love you. Their love is just buried and ran from along with everything else. During their slipping away into the abyss much is lost from them. They have incorrectly projected and blamed LBS, kids, pets, family for their unhappiness and throw us all away. To do such an act requires burying much under layers of false justifications. 17 years is no big deal to H because that’s the way it has to be. One cannot love or empathize when one doesn’t love themselves.
MLCers may not find their way back. Granted a few do. Their path is their’s and on their time. They must face what has been unfaceable and grow and heal from there.
cardinal, you have a strong emotional intelligence. This clearly shows in your empathetic views, your compassion, and your love. From my own experience, a lot of these questions regarding H’s love, you asking of yourself as well - that challenging of beliefs and values.
Originally Posted by cardinal
That notebook used to live in the living room, and shortly after BD I flipped through it and found a letter that he'd been writing to a friend before we were married, all about how well I understood him and how he was so happy to be with me. So that memory hurt. Then H showed me a funny drawing in it, that's all. It brought me right back to that time period, though, before we were M, to all that was then, and as soon as he left the room I was crying. It feels like he has no trouble bringing up stuff that happened in our past, like it's all a slightly fond, distant memory. Like since he's moved on completely, these memories or references are not fraught at all. Like he assumes I'm on the same page, fine with being friends and roommates and wanting nothing more. But for me, all these little references are kind of gutting, all the more because from what I see, they don't carry the same (any) emotional weight for him.
MLC is emotional time travel on steroids. Like your trip down memory lane triggered from the funny drawing, H is similarly taken to his younger self and those hidden torments. For H his destination is from a time and place before you were even in his life. This is the time he is mired in. Emotionally stunted adolescent.
The drawing had you recall the period of those days. The emotions, the connection, the feelings, the future you looked upon and the promise it held, and the sharp contrast to the present day. You are emotionally strong and healthy and can handle it appropriately, crying being a healthy response.
H recalls that period as well - somewhat. His is more a visitor, like you stated, more of a fond distant memory. Remember he is emotionally mired at a time years earlier. His responses, behaviours, and emotions are those of that young guy. And that young guy didn’t know you, nor have much life experience, nor experiences or feelings of being with you, and so on. It is quite amazing, and so very darn hard to accept, rationalize, and believe.
H has, and has not, moved on from these memories. He is emotionally running and keeping ahead of them. When he tires, when he is at rest, especially at night laying in bed in the dark, his demons come out to play and torment.
Running requires a lot of emotional investment in maintaining his fantasy reality. His lack of apparent emotional weight to stimulus and memory is real and not. He really cannot face that he might be wrong, so he portrays the facade you see. Fate and life’s events will continue to steer and alter his path, it is up to him when/if he will yield and look within.
Originally Posted by cardinal
MLC or not, maybe the simple answer is he loved me once and just doesn't love me anymore. But how can that be? ...
For what it’s worth, it is MLC, and it is not simple.
Beliefs and acceptance. Keep challenging and questioning for understanding and acceptance is a pursuit as much as a destination.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I've never had trouble finding love for H, even if some days I don't like him much, you know? Not in our M and not now. I know that is a strength of mine even though it hurts.
That is an excellent conviction to possess.
It is incredible how deep love actually goes, well beyond feelings, most definitely a belief.
Hope and love at first blush would appear to keep one stuck, when it is in fact the opposite. This counterintuitive path is a blessed one. Define yourself by strong inspiring beliefs.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
I think a huge part of the reason I am the way I am is because I've learned to love through the hard stuff my entire life. I learned that you will not always like the person you love. You will not always love the person you love in the same way. That you will both change, and hopefully grow, and the best you can both do is wait for the other person to catch up or at the very least be willing to be supportive during that time. You will get hurt, and frustrated, and sometimes even apathetic in your relationship but if you always choose to turn inward instead of outward things will fall back into place, maybe not the the same order, but back into stead foundation.
This is beautiful, wayfarer. Thank you for writing this! I feel all of this deeply. I too have examples of 30+ year marriages in my family, and it's true that H maybe didn't have that same example of love. I didn't realize I had all these beliefs about what love is until BD and this whole experience. I mean, I did on a surface level, but in the last two years I've had the opportunity to really examine and articulate them to myself.
H's birthday was this week, and I woke up this weekend just feeling like, how great that I still choose to love--it's my superpower! I don't need H to love me back; my love just is. For a while I wanted to fight this, because to still love him is often painful. I've been having these waves of acceptance in the last month or so, just really embracing that love and seeing it as a good quality, like you say, WF, rather than wanting to change it.
Originally Posted by DnJ
H has, and has not, moved on from these memories. He is emotionally running and keeping ahead of them. When he tires, when he is at rest, especially at night laying in bed in the dark, his demons come out to play and torment.
Running requires a lot of emotional investment in maintaining his fantasy reality. His lack of apparent emotional weight to stimulus and memory is real and not. He really cannot face that he might be wrong, so he portrays the facade you see. Fate and life’s events will continue to steer and alter his path, it is up to him when/if he will yield and look within.
Thanks for these reminders, D, for telling me about MLC again! It is always helpful. I do believe there is a difference between moving on from memories and running to stay ahead of them. My IC would point out that H has always had this avoidant behavior, but it is just more apparent and externalized now. I believe H is running to stay ahead of memories, yet apparently I have to keep testing this belief because the carefree-ness he projects is so convincing. But also maybe there is that aspect that WF writes about, that he doesn't know how to love through the hard times. The thing is, I thought he did--why would I have married him otherwise?
That weekend wave of accepting and feeling proud of my ability to love? It has been replaced with a deep sadness all week. H has been mostly gone since last week, though I did have to email him the monthly bill email and I wished him a happy birthday, and he said thanks.
It used to be that his being gone for days at a time meant a break from his potential monstering, and it felt freeing, I could relax. Now that he's pleasant to be around, it's a reminder of how much I miss our R. I miss present H's company, too. Hi, again, grief! Such a weight.
WF, reading your post I was also remembering (a long time ago) when you'd talked about being friends with your H, and there was that DB post you shared of the guy who stayed friends with his wife after she left him. I realized because of decisions I've made on how to respond to H all along, I'm kind of in a weird friend-ish zone with him. I mean, I didn't create this, but my decisions made it possible for H to make certain decisions to respond kindly to me as well. My choices have paved the way for this, in part, and it's a sad place to be sometimes, a difficult place, but also maybe an okay place for now.
It's a little weird to be almost at 2 years post-BD and to still have the love I do for H. Sometimes I feel like I haven't successfully "moved on." Our M is over and I still love him. I don't want to date. I still live with him (or he still lives with me). But also, oh yeah, we're not D yet, because he still hasn't moved it along, so even if I wanted to date, I'd wait until that was official. Some of the stuff posted in DnJ's thread was already on my mind. Am I missing out on other love and companionship because of my choices? Life is short. Knowing that doesn't change how I feel about H or dating right now though.
Real quick P.S. to that post: While H was gone, I had to ask him about making arrangements for pet care while I visit my sick grandfather in a month. He’s back today and will be able to care for them for most of the time I’m away, which is a relief. He also did ask about my grandpa, and we had a short exchange about how he’s doing. It feels so so weird, like it could be any friend asking about him in a concerned but detached way, not my H who knew my grandpa for over a decade. They were fond of each other for sure.
Anyway, so it’s just hitting me again how much intimacy is gone, how surface our interactions are, and how with no effort to change that on either of our parts we will grow more distant and our exchanges more superficial, and... I guess that is true of any friendship or R.
I’m engaging on a surface level because I don’t think H has been or is in a place to engage beyond that. But what if I’m wrong? What if I never do my part to make space for more? He mentioned his grandpa dealing with dementia years ago, and I wanted to say, I know, I was there, I remember how hard it was.
I’m partly engaging in a surface level because that intimacy did go away at BD when he betrayed my trust. I can’t rebuild that on my own—he would have to want to work at an R and at rebuilding that.
Do I just sail through another few months or a year of surface level, acquaintance type convos? Or at some point do I make the effort to have more “real” human exchanges with him, even if as friends? To just say in this case, it feels so strange to be talking with you about my grandpa as if you didn’t know him for so long too.
I guess I’m feeling inauthentic again. Feeling like I’m partly staying super surface because I don’t want to be vulnerable.
It is surface because he is incapable of connection. It has nothing to do with how you behave or what you do. You only have the power to start a fight or not start one. You do not have the power to to make a connection. It's like replacing only one battery in the remote. It still won't work.
Throw a pebble, a boulder or a scrap of paper into a shallow puddle. It makes no difference what you throw. It cannot sink to the bottom or barely make a ripple.
You are thinking too much about your interactions. He is not in there right now. Just go about your life. And don't ask him to watch your pets. Don't ask him for anything.
You'll know if he is ever someone who could make a connection. You'll know if he is ever a friend who should watch your pets. He isn't right now.
I say this all with love.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
I believe H is running to stay ahead of memories, yet apparently I have to keep testing this belief because the carefree-ness he projects is so convincing. But also maybe there is that aspect that WF writes about, that he doesn't know how to love through the hard times. The thing is, I thought he did--why would I have married him otherwise?
Oh yes, the carefree, assured, I’ve made the right choice, facade they wear as a mask is very convincing - it has to be, elsewise their entire reality crumbles. A person in crisis has and is rewriting their history and past. Ignoring some things, making up other things, exaggerating certain aspects and taking stuff out of context, all to justify and craft their shinny new narrative. The driving force behind this irrational behaviour is their emotional pain and torment from unrealized trauma(s) long ago. Irrational, without doubt, for to discard one’s own life experiences is not a rational choice. Consider how hurt and far gone one must be to become so different; to throw away so much.
We all struggle to find “our” way to look at this. To believe what we see right before our eyes. I happen to see many points of view as true; no one thing is the full be all end all explanation of such a complex mental shift. It helps to think of the crisis individual as another person. Yes, they are the same person/body; it’s their mind and emotionally self we are considering. Not quite dual personality, although close. Maybe more of dominate vs submissive characteristics and self.
Quote
The thing is, I thought he did--why would I have married him otherwise?
He did! Believe that. It is part of your experience. No need to rewrite that. You know this, you married him because he could love through the hard times.
However, MLC is an incredibly insidious force which the unfortunate bearer is completely ill-prepared for. Their past rises up from its once buried dark depths and consumes them in pain and anguish. A crisis is inevitable, with the seeds being planted long ago. It’s these very seeds which stunted their emotional growth and ergo an ill-prepared person awaits their unknown fate.
H is currently a different person. It’s more than he cannot love through the hard times. He cannot love - you, friends, himself. He wears that assured mask for he absolutely has to. He cannot love even himself. Think about that. What a confusing place to live within your own scrambled mind and heart.
This confusion is expressed in all sorts of ways as they expend enormous energies convincing themselves and others everything is fine and right. Two years post BD and H has still not divorce you, even though he says he wants too. Words vs actions. Follow the actions and only 50% of those. H is (was) utterly confused, and perhaps is sorting some things out.
Originally Posted by cardinal
That weekend wave of accepting and feeling proud of my ability to love? It has been replaced with a deep sadness all week. H has been mostly gone since last week, though I did have to email him the monthly bill email and I wished him a happy birthday, and he said thanks.
Why?
Why the changed feelings?
What triggered it? What reinforced it?
Feeling are fleeting. And will flit unless reinforced.
What you want reinforcing your emotions is your beliefs, not the external forces and actions of others.
It is an excellent and incredible trait to love our betraying broken spouses. Your ability to love in the face of all this - be proud of that! Right down to your soul! Believe it. That is a worthy path of Grace my friend.
Such belief will not be replaced by sadness. At times sadness, even that deep sadness, will swell up; however it does not replace one’s values. You can feel and experience both, and many more, together. Yeah, this is coming from a man. And us guys are usually singularly emotionally operative. Lol. Relax, be still and silent, look deep, listen, and your multitude of emotions and beliefs and thoughts will align and sort. Oh, what a peace comes from that!
Originally Posted by cardinal
...so even if I wanted to date, I'd wait until that was official. Some of the stuff posted in DnJ's thread was already on my mind. Am I missing out on other love and companionship because of my choices? Life is short. Knowing that doesn't change how I feel about H or dating right now though.
For what it’s worth, I’m much on the side of my still intact vows. I am considering altering my own beliefs, and no one else’s. This exercise is causing strain within me, which is actually strengthening my beliefs and values. As I say, what good are beliefs if there are weak and cannot withstand the storms of life.
The more I consider stepping down, to not stand, to not stand for me, the more my peace and contentment falters. This is the opposite of an MLCer. Similar life direction perhaps, yet intellectually driven not emotionally. A thoughtful look before you leap approach. My current decision is to remain as is - happy, content, and proud of who I am and the life I lead.
Life is indeed short. Best to live it full and well. How ever one truly and deeply defines that. And if one doesn’t yet know their definition, be patient and answers will reveal themselves. I know it. I’ve experienced it. I believe it.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I’m engaging on a surface level because I don’t think H has been or is in a place to engage beyond that. But what if I’m wrong? What if I never do my part to make space for more?
H is a different person.
Before H had been in a place to engage beyond the superficial - you know this. Currently, H is not able too - you know this too.
What you are not seeing is your attempts to reconcile these two at odds views. They come from the same person/body, not the same inside. Two different people from different times. The H of your marriage has been dragged down and troubled H is dominate, for the moment. I’m sure you see flashes and times of old H peaking through, right?
Making space, doing your part, and such, matters not. Nothing you do will greatly alter H’s path. Yet, everything you do will. I know, I know. What the ___ are you talking about DnJ.
No one thing will make any great lasting difference to H’s journey. He must traverse it himself. You were not invited.
And, everything you do. Your values, your core self, will affect him - especially if/when he awakens. How you treated him matters - then. But, it matters now - for you! And your values. And yes, for him, as much as he projects it doesn’t. (The not giving him further justification and so on.)
If you don’t make space, might be the very thing that prompts him to look further within. Or not. That’s the problem - no one knows all ends. So, focus on you. Be the best cardinal you will be. Live your values, and no matter what happens you will be at peace and have a content life.
Originally Posted by cardinal
Do I just sail through another few months or a year of surface level, acquaintance type convos? Or at some point do I make the effort to have more “real” human exchanges with him, even if as friends? To just say in this case, it feels so strange to be talking with you about my grandpa as if you didn’t know him for so long too.
Some direct advice. Yes, continue as you are. Focus on you and leave him to God.
If H wants back, no force on earth will stand in his way. You job is not to place boulders in his path is all; he needs to walk it.
You can attempt deeper exchanges, if you want too. If they don’t work - back off quickly. No pressure, time and space, remember. H is in crisis and that is an irrational landscape where the normal rules of interaction get all messed up.
H is a different person. Grandpa is a pressure H cannot face right now. Also H is somewhat back in time, when he didn’t know/feel Grandpa; hence the indifference you sense about him.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I guess I’m feeling inauthentic again. Feeling like I’m partly staying super surface because I don’t want to be vulnerable.
Protecting one’s self is perfectly normal.
If I may, your feelings of inauthentic-ness: Realize you are being authentic. Your feelings make sense given the situation and who H currently is. Seek that which is reinforcing those feelings and let go. Find your belief and strengthen it and let it guide your emotional self - that accepting and proud of self feeling.
Have a wonderful Sunday my friend.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
D and Gerda, thank you for taking the time to share your wisdom, experience and support. HE WILL NOT SEE YOU. HE CANNOT SEE YOU. The façade. I am reminding myself of all of this.
Originally Posted by DnJ
What you are not seeing is your attempts to reconcile these two at odds views. They come from the same person/body, not the same inside. Two different people from different times. The H of your marriage has been dragged down and troubled H is dominate, for the moment. I’m sure you see flashes and times of old H peaking through, right?
I thought there had been glimpses of old H, but this week he confirmed to me again that he is gone. I am in another cycle of grieving that death. I have that feeling again like I did at the beginning of this two years ago, like I have woken up from a nightmare but then it turns out it's not a nightmare--this person I knew for 17 years has stopped telling me how happy he is to be with me and is suddenly telling me he’s never been happy.
The last six months have been peaceful between H and me--no more barely contained anger radiating from him. We joke, I have complicated feelings about it that I don’t share with him, and that's been the extent of it. Then last night H asked if we could talk about next steps. The last time we'd talked about D, six months ago, was when he raged and then acknowledged he shouldn't have filed for an annulment and was just angry, etc. Well, this time he stayed mostly calm. He started by apologizing for his anger again and for the annulment filing and said he will change it to a D. He said he knows I'd wanted to do mediation and we have L (though he hasn't checked in with his since last year), but maybe we could try now that he's in a better place to talk through an agreement ourselves. I said maybe we could outline issues and then go from there if we need outside help. I was curious if his stance (basically that I deserve nothing) had changed. I let him know I still felt strongly about the portion of his pension I am entitled to, and he said that is the one thing he feels strongly about too, because he worked for it, it should be his
. He said he wishes it wasn't this way, but he'll always hold it against me if I don't let him have what he earned. We can go to mediation, and I'll get it all and he'll get nothing because that's how it works. (He seemed to recognize the court would follow suit with the pension too--his only hope is if I give it up.)
And this led to us basically hitting all the same old points. I'm cold if I just say the law entitles me to it, period, and that’s just how D goes. Why can’t I understand how he feels? If I say instead we had a partnership, that's what a M is, and everything we both earned was shared, then it's that we didn't have a true partnership, he supported me but I didn't support him in the same way.
One minute he says he supported my writing because he wanted to make me happy; another minute he says it was a sacrifice for him and it didn’t go anywhere (I guess meaning I never sold a book and made him money?). He felt like he was solely responsible for "supporting our lifestyle," and I would never get a job (though I did teach part-time as a lecturer and often brought up whether I should try to find a FT job in another field, but he always said no, keep writing!). Because of that (i.e. me) we took on debt. I pointed out he never discussed these feelings or our financial situation with me, that I couldn't have known about debt or savings because I didn't have access to it, that whenever I brought up finances, he assured me we were fine.
This is how it went--brief acknowledgement of something he should have communicated but didn't, then turning around and blaming me again. Old gems: Communication shouldn't be this hard, you shouldn't have to communicate your needs to your partner, they should just know because they understand you so well (and I never understood him); I should have known he was unhappy, should have sensed it. I said I did at times think you were upset or angry, but when I tried to talk about it, you insisted you fine or you would tell me, and if I pressed, you were often angrier and shut down any conversation. His response: you should have pushed harder. Or you should have just known even though I didn’t want to talk about it. These all relate to reasons he should keep all of his retirement.
He wasn't as full of contempt this time. He didn’t yell. I was more emotional, as it was upsetting (even though I should know by now) to hear again how I should have known XYZ and that is why I don’t deserve this and wow, his life is so much better now. He was still condescending: he said clearly I still have some processing to do (because I couldn’t stop myself from expressing that emotion), while he's already processed everything, he's really worked on himself (by the way he's vaping pot *and* ecigs now), and he's grown, and he’s always processed his emotions faster than me, etc.
Um, I said, didn’t you tell me part of the issue that you *didn't* process your emotions and then they all caught up with you at once? I'm not like that anymore, he said. Now I let my emotions out. He's happy now, he feels free! He checked out of the convo and started looking at his phone. He said he was disappointed our talk hadn’t gone as he’d thought it would. I’m thinking after my kindness with the tax situation, he expected me to similarly "help" him here by not accepting my portion of the retirement.
We ended with his agreeing to share his pension info with me so we’re on the same page, since I already shared all of my info with him when I filed my response.
Finally I broke down later in the night. I was vulnerable, I cried. I said that I remember the nicknames we used to call each other, ever since we started dating. That’s who we were. We only used those names for each other. And when I think of those two people, and how that guy was my best friend, it’s excruciating to hear that he thinks I’m someone who would try to punish him, or go after his money, that he would believe that of me. I said it’s hard for me to shift from friendly roommate banter to talking about D stuff, and I don’t ever feel like I’m doing it right. I
It was after that, remembering and acknowledging how we'd kept that ritual of the names through our 17 year R, that I also remembered the way that guy looked at me when he saw me on our wedding day for the first time (after seven years of dating), and it just broke me that, when I was talking to that guy for the very last time, I didn't know it was the last time. I didn't know what was coming, how he would change. I sobbed for an hour, didn’t sleep at all.
My mind keeps replaying everything and, yes, I feel like I did everything wrong. I don't know why this time made me feel like BD all over again. It was just a reminder that old H isn’t there and he may not even be buried somewhere inside new H; he may really have killed that part of himself like he said. It’s reminded me how unsettled I used to feel all the time when he would rage, how weird it is to live in a house with someone you don’t feel like you know anymore, someone who doesn’t know you anymore, doesn’t recognize you for who you’ve always been.
A long and not... great update. Before all this happened, my update was going to be that at a visit to our dentist, she surprised me by asking if H and I were still together. We've gone there for many years. I said we still live together but he's wanted a divorce for two years. She said, not jokingly, "Is he having a midlife crisis?" No one has ever flat out asked me that. She recommended a book on boundaries. Makes me wonder if she's had some experience with MLC in her life.
Do NOT agree to anything financial about the divorce. Boy, he knows how to push your buttons! He wants to do things without lawyers because he knows what he’s asking for is unreasonable.
Go to mediation. Have your own lawyer to advise you. Don’t give up anything you’re entitled to. Stop having conversations with him about it without your lawyer.
Get your own financial ducks in a row. If you have health and dental insurance through his job, get anything you need done, fine now. If your income isn’t enough to support you, figure out how to increase it.
Let go or be dragged.Letting go of him doesn’t mean you’ve [censored] the door if he suddenly wakes up. But it means you move forward with your own life. The person he is now doesn’t have remorse and doesn’t care what happens to you. So YOU have to look after yourself.
Thanks, KML. My ducks are pretty much in a row, but I’m afraid of losing my savings through this process. If he seems to acknowledge that if that’s what I want that’s what will happen, is it just as practical to try to wrap up through lawyers? Or is mediation still better, and I wonder if it would still be a flat fee of like $5k in that case. I’m afraid somehow he could change his mind during a mediation process and I would be out the money I’d need to give my L.
It is clear H is in an emotional crisis. His behaviour of trying to convince you and himself that he is all better is so following the script. Along with all his blaming and threatening to never forgive you if you take what you are entitled to. And all the past stuff and how true partners would have known what each other was thinking. Lol. (Old DnJ is a pretty darn empathic guy and I still cannot read minds.)
Pay H’s ramblings no heed.
It is good that H has admitted and recognizes divorce and not pushing for annulment. By the way, that idea of forced annulment was some weird stuff from him. Makes me think it is some kind of manifestation of his torment and pain.
Originally Posted by cardinal
He said he wishes it wasn't this way, but he'll always hold it against me if I don't let him have what he earned.
DO NOT FALL FOR THIS.
You know better. I know you do.
His attitude is so like an emotional crisis person. Negative and permanent. I’ll never ever feel... It will always be bad... and so on and so on.
You are entitled to, and need financial protection. Do not back down!
I get how bad this all feels. Back to the days of bomb drop.
My XW and I had cute nicknames too. I’d love to hear mine again. I’d love to be hugged again. Coming up on four years soon. And I have those memories of the last time such and such happened, and I didn’t know at the time that was going to be the last time. I was unrecognized and then completely ignored; like I’m dead. It’s a heck of a way for XW and me, our life together to end.
Cry it out my friend. Let it out. And let it go. H is having a mid life crisis, which has nothing to do with you.
By the way, I’d place money on your dentist having been closely involved with someone’s MLC. Maybe even her spouse. People have no idea about this stuff until they have experienced it. She gave advice becoming of a person of experience and knowledge not a person with the Hollywood version of MLC preconceived ideas.
Originally Posted by cardinal
The last six months have been peaceful between H and me--no more barely contained anger radiating from him. We joke, I have complicated feelings about it that I don’t share with him, and that's been the extent of it. Then last night H asked if we could talk about next steps.
So, did you expect his next steps to be about reconciling or divorcing? (Careful with the trick expectations question)
Originally Posted by cardinal
The last time we'd talked about D, six months ago, was when he raged and then acknowledged he shouldn't have filed for an annulment and was just angry, etc. Well, this time he stayed mostly calm. He started by apologizing for his anger again and for the annulment filing and said he will change it to a D. He said he knows I'd wanted to do mediation and we have L (though he hasn't checked in with his since last year), but maybe we could try now that he's in a better place to talk through an agreement ourselves.
So far, so good.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I said maybe we could outline issues and then go from there if we need outside help. I was curious if his stance (basically that I deserve nothing) had changed. I let him know I still felt strongly about the portion of his pension I am entitled to, and he said that is the one thing he feels strongly about too, because he worked for it, it should be his.
Wonder what he would have said to a response of: What do you suggest H?
I do suspect he would have gotten around to the issue of pension and all that followed. H knows, and knew your stance. He is looking for justification of how he feels. Back off. No more emotional conversations regarding divorce. It is a business matter. Keep it such.
Quote
He said he wishes it wasn't this way, but he'll always hold it against me if I don't let him have what he earned. We can go to mediation, and I'll get it all and he'll get nothing because that's how it works. (He seemed to recognize the court would follow suit with the pension too--his only hope is if I give it up.)
And this led to us basically hitting all the same old points. I'm cold if I just say the law entitles me to it, period, and that’s just how D goes. Why can’t I understand how he feels? If I say instead we had a partnership, that's what a M is, and everything we both earned was shared, then it's that we didn't have a true partnership, he supported me but I didn't support him in the same way.
I’m sorry you feel that way H.
Next time. Businesslike. No need to rehash this conversation again with H. If he wants a divorce then he needs to face and discuss the reality of it. Blaming, projecting, and justifying is not needed. Place a boundary on that stuff.
You are on two paths. The emotional healing path towards wholeness and healthy and a great life. You are also on the business path of financial security and protection, which also leads into your great life. Two separate paths which eventually converge. These do require different tactics and responses. Mental assertiveness. Sword and shield my dear girl.
H did agree to share his pension info with you. And this conversation seemed to end on a somewhat calm note. Please, cut yourself some slack, you did not do everything wrong. There are no guarantees or rules to cover all scenarios. Perhaps H let off some of his built up pressure and will be more forth coming and better because of this.
My belief and opinion is you will be better for this conversation and the breaking down. You needed to get it out of your system. And you did prompt H for just that by prodding with the pension item. A fully needed to be discussed item by the way, and one you know would most likely get him “talking”. Perfectly reasonable to be curious where H is at.
An other hug my friend. (((Hug))) You deserve it. The path of the LBS at times ain’t no walk in the park. You are doing really well. Seriously.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
His attitude is so like an emotional crisis person. Negative and permanent. I’ll never ever feel... It will always be bad... and so on and so on.
Ah, that's true. At the same time he is saying he's emotionally enlightened now, I forgot that he doesn't have the understanding that feelings change. And that's the unrealized expectation I had--not that the next convo would have been about D or reconciliation, but that with the lifting of anger that I sensed, he would not still be blaming me, at least not to the same extent. That's why I was so saddened and disappointed. He may not be blaming me quite as angrily, but all of the blame is still there the same. And so it reinforces my fear that his feelings about me or M will never change (not even like toward reconciliation, but toward recognition and accepting responsibility).
Originally Posted by DnJ
My XW and I had cute nicknames too. I’d love to hear mine again. I’d love to be hugged again. Coming up on four years soon. And I have those memories of the last time such and such happened, and I didn’t know at the time that was going to be the last time. I was unrecognized and then completely ignored; like I’m dead. It’s a heck of a way for XW and me, our life together to end.
Thanks for sharing this, D. I know you get it. I see you can still recognize the great sadness of it all while still reaching acceptance and embracing life. I will get there. I have been moving in that direction, and moving through waves of new grief that slow me momentarily.
Originally Posted by DnJ
Wonder what he would have said to a response of: What do you suggest H?
He did lead me to the issue of the pension, after listing other things and saying he really didn't care about them. I think he wants me to accept short-term support in lieu of the retirement. He hinted that's what he would prefer. I hinted that I could entertain the opposite arrangement.
Originally Posted by DnJ
I do suspect he would have gotten around to the issue of pension and all that followed. H knows, and knew your stance. He is looking for justification of how he feels. Back off. No more emotional conversations regarding divorce. It is a business matter. Keep it such.
That's why I'm disappointed in myself. I gave him more justification. But I also realize I don't know how to engage in a conversation that only involves business. I'm easily pulled in to trying to get him to see my true intentions, even as I realized he's still in the place where there is nothing I can say or do to make that happen. Even as I realize I have no control over what he thinks of me, or whether he decides to hold something else against me or not.
What would that look like?
Me: I still feel strongly about X.
H: I feel just as strongly you don't deserve X.
Me: I'm sorry you feel that way.
H: You don't deserve it because....
Me: [Trying in many ways to explain how I see it even as I acknowledge his perspective.] I'm sorry that's how you feel.
Is it just like that? I don't understand how to negotiate, obviously, and I don't see how to move things forward if it's just me saying over and over I'm sorry you feel that way. If I asked, What do you propose? And he said I propose to give you everything but my pension and that's his only proposal, how do I respond?
“I’m only asking for what the law decrees is fair”. Then “have your lawyer talk to my lawyer” if you have to.
As for expense - mediation is way cheaper than going to court. Usually it’s a better option, unless you’re dealing with a sociopathic personality. Only you know whether he’s too unstable or abusive to mediate with. Hopefully his lawyer will explain the facts of life to him.
Cardinal, a quick question and I will write more later --
First of all -- I could have written that entire passage you wrote about the jokes and the feeling that he might come back and then the calm and the D talk and many of the things you thought/felt, even the pet names.
Let that be a warning to you.
STOP TALKING TO HIM. He isn't in there. STOP. I disagree with KML in a way -- yes, he knows how to push your buttons. But you are also lifting your shirt and saying, "HERE ARE THE BUTTONS, PLEASE PRESS THEM."
And more on that later, but my question is -- How much will you get from the pension? Stop thinking about what is yours and what you deserve. You don't deserve to have your H turn into a dirtbag robot, but you are getting what you don't deserve there too, to say it with a double negative!
Let's say you calculate that the pension share is going to bring you an extra 100K in your lifetime. Is there some other area where you can make that up?
Or -- take a deep breath -- can you survive and thrive without it?
I am not saying you should not get a L and go for the default 50-50 split of everything -- and in fact, his earning all those years while you worked on your writing will only mean he has to pay you more alimony plus the pension!
But I'm just saying that you should sit down and crunch a whole bunch of numbers, just for yourself, just to know what it would look like to get everything you want and what it would look like to agree to his crap deal. Not to do it, just to look honestly at the numbers. Tell us what those are and then we can pragmatically figure out your bottom line. And then you can try to go to mediation. Let him pick the mediator or let him do whatever you can that is bearable to make him feel like he is in control. Not because it's what's best for you, but because you want to look for the quickest way out and it's quite obvious from what you have written and from all we know of MLC that he wants to feel like he is in control (even though we also all know he isn't!).
Remember, if you don't believe me, just read my threads. I could have written what you wrote -- that means that in a few years from now, you could write what I wrote if you don't learn from my mistakes. And the biggest mistake you can make is listening to a word they say. Just figure out what you can get and what you want to get, and start from there. Cut this H out of your mind and grieve the one you used to know. If he was real, he'll eventually know all the things you are lying there crying about. And if he was never a good man to begin with and it was all some weird NPD act, he'll never know anyway.
But we know. ((((( Cardinal )))))))
Come over for a cuppa tea. We can hash it out some more. : )
Last edited by Gerda; 06/04/2101:23 PM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Dang - just wrote a long reply and the system lost it.
Short version - figure out what the pension is worth. If there is some other way for him to pay you it’s value, that might be worth doing. Sample pension calculation: If you were married ten years, and he has twenty years in working to earn that pension, and expects to work five more years. Let’s say the monthly pension payment is $2,000. You would get 1/2 x $2,000 x 10/25 = $400 a month.
Calculating the lump sum value if that is complicated, and requires actuarial data, but I would guesstimate it’s lump sum value at $50k-$70 k (probably at the lower end). Could he give you that money in some other way? Taking all the debt, for example, if there’s a ton of joint credit card debt? Taking out a loan of some kind?
Also, if the pension does have COLA it’s more valuable.
STOP TALKING TO HIM. He isn't in there. STOP. I disagree with KML in a way -- yes, he knows how to push your buttons. But you are also lifting your shirt and saying, "HERE ARE THE BUTTONS, PLEASE PRESS THEM."
You are so right! I was realizing again the pattern of feeling like I'm in a fog during our convo, then feeling so lost, confused, and also guilty. The same thing would happen during arguments in the later part of our M, when I recognize now he would blame shift, explaining his anger was because I needed to do X or Y differently, or always just ending with we can't communicate because I don't understand him. So I googled again and came across an article on a psychology site about emotional blackmail and a book written about it too (ordered). OMG--recognition! I might say more about this later (I can't post the article, right?). But I don't think H is a sociopath or a narcissist or is manipulating me on purpose; he simply has never had the tools to express his needs or understand his emotions or communicate them, and since BD, it is worse. Anyway, so yeah, I realized, wow, I'm showing him again how susceptible I am to being guilted, how much I care what he thinks of me, etc. I know I have a tendency to just give in and give him what he wants to get out of this and because I think I can make him see me for who I am again. I need to learn non-defensive communication and how to stand my ground, stat. No more trying to justify what I am asking for.
KML (so sorry the system lost your long reply, but thank you for writing!) and Gerda, a financial advisor I talked to in the past urged me to never give up the pension. He said he sees this in women, particularly stay-at-home women, all the time, and said to call him at any time and he would talk me down from that ledge. This was from someone who accepted no money from me, has worked with people through D, and understood exactly what I was going through. That has stuck with me.
There's not a ton of debt. I do have that number. It's not a huge amount. 4 figures. Even if technically it is not all half mine (I'm not interested in spending money to discover that), I could pay my half with all of what is owed to me from our savings, clean slate there. Pension: Let's say we were M 10 years and he has worked 14 years so far, and can work 20+ more. I believe he will never leave this job that he has always complained about. The pension payments are based on the highest two years of the income over your entire career. Right now, 62k. COLA too I think.
If there is another way to think about this negotiating point and I should be considering other things, I would love to hear it. I can only think of trading alimony, which would be not a ton, for pension. I don't know how he would pay me an up-front sum. He doesn't have access to that kind of money.
I will write in more detail later but do you mean he will get 62K per year from retirement til death, and you would be entitled to 31K per year of that?
Do you know about this --
The Majauskas Formula = 50 percent × years of service credit accrued during the marriage ÷ total service credit at time of retirement.
For example, if the Participant/Alien/Artist-Formerly-Known-as-the-Guy-You-Married accrued 15 years of service credit while married, and retires with 30 years total service credit, the ex-spouse’s/Gorgeous-Kind-Brilliant-Cardinal's share will be 25 percent of the pension. (50% × 15/30 = 25%).
The Retirement System does not require the Majauskas formula to be used. The Court may arrive at a different computation. The Retirement System will follow the Court’s directive in computing your ex-spouse’s share.
According to that, you'd be entitled to 50% x 10/34? That would only be 9K a year unless I am not understanding the formula. Maybe KML knows, or someone else on here? He may not realize that he doesn't have to give you the full half, and that's why he's fighting. Also only 9K a year ain't that much, and you could use this to leverage something else in trade.
Do you own a house or any other assets? If you don't want to give numbers, I can make a formula.
Also -- for now, he is a narcissist/sociopath/etc. Again, use my story to guide you, I am not saying he always was or that he won't wake up and be who he seemed to be before. But for right now, under the Reign of MLC, he is Cluster C Central. Read all those books and adjust accordingly. If he snaps out of it, you'll know, and you can shift yourself accordingly.
Last edited by Gerda; 06/04/2107:17 PM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Well, he gets a 3% raise yearly I believe. A financial advisor gave me an example in which I would get 12.5% of his total retirement payout ($x/year for the rest of his life after he retires). That must have been for 10 years of service credit during the marriage x 20 years of total service credit at the time of retirement. No house, no other assets. So that’s what I’m thinking too—maybe he thinks this means I would get half of his pension for the rest of my life, and that’s way more than I would actually be getting. He doesn’t research or pay attention to these things. I was hoping once he sees actual numbers he’d realize it’s not as bad as he thinks. Or maybe it just comes down to the principle for him, who knows.
I don't know if these things make any difference in a QDRO'd pension plan, but are things you might want to ask an attorney: What happens if he dies before he's fully vested in his pension? Is he fully vested now? If he dies, do you have to wait until HE would have reached retirement age, or is there some different age for you? If he leaves his company early and takes a lump sum payout for his share, does this impact your share in some way?
$9,000 a year isn't that much, but having it tied to a COLA makes it more valuable, and if he's likely to advance in his career, you could benefit from future raises even though you're no longer married to him. If he were to advance, say, to a management position paying twice his current salary, the benefit for you would be twice as much.
I do think you are probably right about him not understanding the math. My ex was terrible with the math and taxes and seemed to think he was paying me 40% of his income in alimony when it was actually about 11% of after-tax income.
BY my calculations, if he worked 34 years and you were married for ten (make sure you make it to ten for the social security reasons I mentioned above) then you would get 14.7% of his pension (10/34 x 1/2). If he retires after only 20 years of working to live his dream of renting out the inherited house from his not yet dead uncle and traveling the world - then you would get 25% of his pension (but the actual amount would be smaller because he would be making less). Do you know things about his pension like what is the earliest he can take it? Does he pay a penalty for taking it at 20 years? Or is he restricted from actually getting payments until he reaches a certain age, like 60 or 65, regardless of when he quits working? It would be useful to know as much as possible about his pension plan rules.
I think if you can present it to him that it's a relatively small percentage of his pension he might be more relaxed about it. (Don't mention the social security thing to him, he might mistakenly think it affects his social security payout, which it does not). I'd use the 14% figure and the assumption that he is working 20 more years. Explaining clearly that you won't get half of his pension may help.
BUT aside from ALL this - $9,000/year in retirement, even with a COLA, is nice but isn't going to get you where you want to go. You still have to focus on INCREASING YOUR INCOME so that you can take care of yourself with or without anything from him. Since there are no other assets, it doesn't seem like he can buy you out of the pension, and since the debt is under $10k, him taking all the debt wouldn't compensate you for the pension either. Unless he can borrow $100k from his uncle to buy you out - is there money in his family?
And what are your employment plans? I can't remember if you changed jobs recently or have a plan to increase your income. This is actually a good time to take control of your own financial future. I'm always reminded of the movie She-Devil, where Roseanne Barr is the frumpy LBS who goes on to become a successful businesswoman. (And destroys her ex husband hilariously in the process).
Too many women are afraid of managing their own finances or think they always need a guy to rescue them. I'd recommend approaching your own finances now AS IF he didn't exist, and plan what you want. Are you young enough to find work with some entity that would give you a pension of your own? (My sister started working for a school district at the age of 50 and will have some retirement money from that. She did home daycare before that while her daughters were growing up). Can you learn a new skill or go back to school to train for something more lucrative? or can you just get a more full-time job in teaching? Would you be happy moving to a more low cost of living area?
Whatever it is you need to do, think about it. Sketch out some scenarios - even some that might seem outlandish to you. Teach in a foreign country? Go back to school? Start a business? Write that best-seller?
Hi, KML--thanks for these questions and for helping me think through numbers and possibilities. The way they calculate retirement starts with calculating the benefit percentage: Service credit x age factor, which is based on your age in complete years and months on the date of your retiring. Age 60-65 = age factor .0250. (For each year you retire early, down to age 50, the age factor decreases; for example, if you retire at 50, it’s only .0110. You can’t retire and take benefits before 55, or in some cases 50. Early distributions are hit with tax penalties.) So a service credit of 20 years x an age factor of .0250 = 50.0% (benefit percentage) of your highest average monthly salary. (30 years service credit = 75% highest average monthly salary.) Multiply the benefit percentage by your highest average monthly salary to get your retirement income. Example: Your benefit percentage is 50.0%. The highest average monthly salary is $5400. 50.0% of $5400 = $2,700. Your basic retirement income is $2,700 per month.
So if a husband’s retirement is 2700/month after 20 years of service and retiring between 60-65, using the formula Gerda mentioned, W married 10 years would get 12.5% of that, or 337/month. If service credit was 30 years, H would get 75% of his monthly salary, 4050/month, and W would get 16% of that, or 648/month. (I think these calculations are right!)
He is fully vested now. If you die while eligible to retire but have not yet elected to retire, a lifetime retirement benefit may be payable to your surviving spouse or domestic partner. The benefit is calculated as though you had elected to retire on the day after the date of death. If you die before you are eligible to retire, it looks like survivors get 15% of salary, but I’m not sure how that would apply to me. H doesn't have a rich uncle, unfortunately, and though his parents are doing well, I'm sure any extra money there is going to their retirement.
So it's not a huge amount by any means, but it would be something to add to my retirement bucket. I just started a job with a pension. I don't know if I'll be able to stay at this job for the long, long term (the cost of living is so high here), but I will stay long enough to be vested and to add that to my retirement bucket as well. I am confident in my money managing abilities and I'm super frugal. H, on the other hand, never wanted to look at expenses or make a budget. It's been freeing to finally be able to manage my own finances!
Maybe if you can do the math and show H that it’s only a small few hundred a month that would go to you, he’ll be less worried.
Great that you’ve got a job with a pension attached. I too found it freeing to not have to deal with my ex in household finances. (I always managed the money, and he wasn’t exactly a spendthrift, but he could blow a hole in the budget occasionally - like the time he came home with $5400 worth of two acoustic guitars without consulting me.)
Your second calculation is incorrect though - the longer he works, the lower your percentage. 10/30 x 0.5 x 0.75 = 12.5%.
At 10 of 20 years, you receive 1/4 (25%) of his 1/2 salary benefit or 12.5% of his total salary. At 10 of 30 years you receive 1/6 (16.6%) of his 0.75 salary benefit which is -you guessed it - 12.5% of his full salary. So the only difference to you is if he works longer he might get more raises and have a higher base salary.
So if his 20 year pension is $2700 a month, you get 25 % of that or $675. If he works for 30 years and gets $4050 a month, you get 16.6% of that or $672 a month. Basically you get the same no matter how long he works.
Hey Cardinal, something came to mind while reading your latest posts-- do you know what's behind the fear of insisting on that to which you're entitled?
That's why I'm disappointed in myself. I gave him more justification. But I also realize I don't know how to engage in a conversation that only involves business. I'm easily pulled in to trying to get him to see my true intentions...
Go easy on yourself. This is difficult and emotional stuff.
Originally Posted by cardinal
I don't understand how to negotiate, obviously, and I don't see how to move things forward if it's just me saying over and over I'm sorry you feel that way. If I asked, What do you propose? And he said I propose to give you everything but my pension and that's his only proposal, how do I respond?
To keep it business, stop trying to get him to see, or more accurately stop trying to force him to see your side. The more you push the more he will push back. Come at it sideways. You need to listen and see his side first. Negotiating doesn’t happen with neither side listening to the other. Someone has to hear first, and that will have to be you since H is all mixed up. Once he feels heard, you will know his side, you will also have (maybe) further insight into his reasons and fear for why he feels like he does. And that helps you negotiate, to find a reasonable resolution to the impasse.
I’ve had many discussions/negotiations with my team over my years. A few take always I’ll share with you are to be openminded and go in with a willingness to change. To be clear, this mindset is not negating your views, or policies, or rules, or application of law, or what you are entitled to or should get in a settlement - it is setting aside your ego so you can actively listen to the other side’s version and accept and validate it. Because it is valid! To him.
Oftentimes being heard and acknowledged is all it takes. People feel like they are getting ran over and no one cares or listens. Consider bomb drop and how you so wished H would just listen to your side as he ran off with the fairies and unicorns into his wonderful fantasy life.
It takes some control and being a bit nibble on your feet while conversing to keep the conversation from getting emotional and from getting pulled in. Keep it business and goal oriented. Clarify his position with follow up questions. Then offer your views, unless... you get a better offer.
Middle ground is a pretty awesome place. One can see all side. One is not firmly fixed on their view, and so far on their side that they cannot see the other side. It is the realm of possibilities and where hope lives. It is possible that H may offer something better than his pension amount. That may not make sense to you; it doesn’t have to, it just has to make sense to H.
If such a conversation can happen, take advantage of it. Listen. Keep mostly silent. People will talk to fill in the silence. And do not be afraid to state you need time to consider his words. He may propose something you have not even considered and you will need time to think about it.
In your present situation, it is about his pension. He has provided his paperwork or by the sounds of things you have a pretty reasonable handle of the amounts and value of the pension plan. Work out what an upfront lump sum would be needed to equal the value paid out later in life. That is only a reference point. Not what you are seeking, not what you willing to settle for, nothing of the sort - just a number. Just information. And information is power and allows one to make decisions based on something other than if it feels good or bad. On offer that is well above the calculated value has obvious merit. An offer below the calculated value can have merit as well. It is just a number. (And keep most of your side and information to yourself. Don’t go spilling the beans.)
Then, consider a few things, on both sides - lump sum or pension: You already have plenty of valid numbers and reasons to retain a pension payout, so I will address the other side. The often overlooked side.
A lump sum is available now. You will have that money in hand now and that can alleviate a lot of financial stress, having a nest egg for just in case expenses is a good thing. You can invest that money how you see fit.
A big one, you do not have to wait until H retires. I know of a few angry people who are stubbornly not retiring. They are working well passed retirement age; working until the day they die, so their ex spouse cannot start collecting pension. (Of course, there are plenty of ways to agree to spilt the pension. The angry spouse hid their nefarious loophole plan from their spouse. And once signed, well...they signed. Always have a lawyer look it over before signing.) A lump sum gets H off the books, now. His actions or inactions cannot affect money that is in your hands.
Alimony can also be consider. An upfront payout ensures a spouse who skips the country or some such as no affect on your financial security.
Consider that side. With those considerations, with the extra security, you can settle for less than the fully entitled amount as well. Or not. Or even more if H offered such a deal. It is possible, these irrational folks do strange things that defy logic and reason. My XW is living proof. And if I had argued and fought, I’d not be where I am now. As much as I hated how she was destroying me, the family, and herself; her own destructive force and speed turned on her own financial future and I just had to shut up and sign the paper. As good a deal as that was and is, it was so very hard to accept. There is a lot of letting go of certain hopeful, well actually expected, outcomes. And that is harder than negotiating with your spouse; it’s almost negotiating with yourself.
Originally Posted by cardinal
Me: I still feel strongly about X.
H: I feel just as strongly you don't deserve X.
Me: I'm sorry you feel that way.
H: You don't deserve it because....
Me: [Trying in many ways to explain how I see it even as I acknowledge his perspective.] I'm sorry that's how you feel.
Yes it can get cyclic rather quickly. Especially when the other person is being manipulative and digging in their heals.
Listening is half the solution. The other half is asking them. (Takes some finesse, not just blurting out. Though at times that is exactly what is needed.)
Originally Posted by cardinal
He did lead me to the issue of the pension, after listing other things and saying he really didn't care about them. I think he wants me to accept short-term support in lieu of the retirement. He hinted that's what he would prefer. I hinted that I could entertain the opposite arrangement.
It’s right there. Follow up and listen. Hear his proposal.
How about something like:
Me: I still feel strongly about my share of your pension.
H: I feel just as strongly you don't deserve my pension as I earned it.
Me: I'm sorry you feel that way.
<silence>
H: You don't deserve it because.... (lists “reasons”)
Me: Ok, let’s say I leave your pension alone. What do you propose?
H: You get the house, car, and the contents.
<small pause>
Me: Ok, I’m listening.
H: And of course alimony.
Me: Hmmm. That is an interesting idea. The house is paid for right? No debts for me?
H: Yes. Of course!
Me: That is certainly worthy of consideration.
Me: Hmmm. An upfront payment... What about the alimony being all upfront as well? Like a lump sum.
H: I would like that too. I never thought you go for something like that.
Ok. Creative liberties aside, you can see the idea. I don’t know what “not really cared about” things H is willing to give up, however they might be rather valuable. My XW gave up her kids for example. And the house. And car and... well she was rather rare. Still, it’s what H is willing to do that matters, and if that is something you can accept or not.
One last thing, the spread between his ideas and the legal default outcome may be a chasm you are not willing to accept. That’s ok. This is just a discussion. A business talk about a business arrangement gone bad (divorce). It is fine to state that his offer is just too far away from what you are willing to accept. And that you will proceed as per legal precedent.
In all, accepting or declining, ensure you are being business-like and not because of feelings. You can let your feelings out later. (And I empathize, I’ve been there too.)
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Thank you, D. I see where I could have listened a lot more and maybe I would have learned more from H. It’s hard when I am so rusty talking to him about anything of significance. I’m also very on edge as I realize how he’s manipulating me, even if not consciously, especially because he has spent so long telling me I don’t deserve anything. I need to realize I can also stand up for myself through silence. Through hearing and considering his proposals, thinking about them, and then, perhaps, not accepting them. I have a hard time imagining H offering anything fair as he doesn’t have access to money to pay me an upfront sum, and we don’t own a house or have any other assets that would offset this. But I know he does want to feel heard.
Should I email him the formula Gerda mentioned and say I want to make sure we are in the same page with how it would be calculated, that I wouldn’t be getting half of his pension (and he could ask his L about that as well). If we talk again I could acknowledge his viewpoint and ask what he would propose as alternatives, to just listen and have him lay it out (I don’t know if he’s really thought it through.) I could not respond even if there’s no way I would accept. I could just say I will think about what he’s laid out.
I think IC would say I should go to mediation or let L handle it and to stop talking with him about specifics. Once again, I feel like I don’t know the best way forward. I fear somehow messing up my L negotiating approach by trying to talk with H on my own. But if I can manage to just get him to propose something and I just listen? Keep in mind I’m still waiting for him to change annulment to D filing and he’s never filled out all the disclosure forms. I just have a couple of account statements from his L. I am again in a place where I’m afraid to trust him to engage in a discussion with me.
Gerda does not agree with her beloved DnJ's imagined convo but I don't have time to write at the moment so I just wanted to say --
First rule -- wait as long as possible to respond to the MLCer at all. He will flip and flop six hundred times anyway so let him spiral and give yourself many days to let your own notions sift. If possible, everytime you think about it, say, "Nope, not going to think about that!" and remember a beautiful waterfall or quickly go to look at a Redon painting. In Christian land, we also say, "NOPE, NOT TODAY, SATAN!" because all despair and anxiety comes from the darkness. So my advice is do nothing for two days and try not to think about it (I know, impossible, but try). Then in two days you can craft a response. And then another day or two. Then edit. Then send.
I personally think all verbal communication should cease. All in writing. My file of these settlement convos was a great exhibit to use in a motion to show how hard I tried to settle and how insane H was.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
I do understand how hard and emotional it is to talk with H. The breaking of trust. His demanding of an annulment. And so on and so on. (((Hug)))
Originally Posted by cardinal
Should I email him the formula Gerda mentioned and say I want to make sure we are in the same page with how it would be calculated, that I wouldn’t be getting half of his pension (and he could ask his L about that as well).
No.
A person in crisis is irrational and has the attention span of a gnat. That formula will surely confuse him and push him away. This all requires different tactics than that of dealing with a rational person. (Like how you understand and seek the formula. Rational and logical. H ain’t there.)
Let it be for awhile. Remember time and space. Let H start it up again. Even if it is just some half ways kind of thing, you can gently steer him towards discussion of his feelings regarding his pension. (Notice his feelings, his pension. His path and view is all about him, speak that way when discussing to keep him engaged and talking. Which you did in the quote above. Well done.)
Originally Posted by cardinal
I have a hard time imagining H offering anything fair as he doesn’t have access to money to pay me an upfront sum, and we don’t own a house or have any other assets that would offset this.
Something from my profession - do not solve problem on route. Wait until you get there are then start solving them.
You are writing off the possibility of H raising monies or getting a loan. Consider Gerda’s H, he has a financial backer/moneyman for all his crazy schemes. Of course had he utilized that money towards a solution instead of fighting good hearted Gerda, her story would so much better. Of course he is in MLC and sometimes things go very much against you. Anyhow, point is, if your H sees this as something he really wants, he probably will find a way. They have already blown up their life in search of their happiness, finding a few bucks is small potatoes after such a feat. (Depending on just how big a pile you are talking about.)
Originally Posted by cardinal
I think IC would say I should go to mediation or let L handle it and to stop talking with him about specifics. Once again, I feel like I don’t know the best way forward. I fear somehow messing up my L negotiating approach by trying to talk with H on my own. But if I can manage to just get him to propose something and I just listen? Keep in mind I’m still waiting for him to change annulment to D filing and he’s never filled out all the disclosure forms. I just have a couple of account statements from his L. I am again in a place where I’m afraid to trust him to engage in a discussion with me.
You are doing fine.
Don’t fret. At anytime you can just walk away and turn everything over to a lawyer. Remember, you are not signing anything. Just talking, which is mostly listening.
You are correct with something else I’d like to point out. H’s actions and his words. He says divorce and not annulment, yet his actions have not followed through. You wisely see that. Perhaps, you can bring that up next time. “H, that needs to be addressed first. Then we can address the pension and other things.” Something like that, you don’t want that falling through the cracks or off the radar.
Negotiating, taking, getting a MLCer to do something reasonable, is like herding cats. Takes a lot of patience and some luck. And as much success you’d have telling a herd of cats what to do, you’d have telling H. H/cats need to feel he wants to.
Be patient. No one ever got divorce in a day. Even mine took 60 days, and I had a highly driven crazy wife pushing for it. She even wanted to plead guilt to adultery to get it all over fast.
Ensure you have sought legal advice about your rights and entitlements. Like the calculated pension amount, that is all information that helps you decided what cardinal wants. What you are willing to do. What is rock solid important and what is easier to let go of, if negotiating or mediation shows promise.
Some advice for right now, today. Enjoy the weekend. Unless H brings this up don’t give it space in your mind for the next two days.
Tell me of your weather. How green the grass is. Where you went for a walk. I am interested in your life, just so you know.
Take care.
D
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Look at that. Gerda and I were posting at the same time. And me utilizing her as an example as she herself did.
DnJ often share a lane! And in the end we pretty much agree on most things but I have shifted my thinking a lot in the area of silence and boundaries.
I no longer think it is a good idea to give any air time whatsoever to the MLCer when s/he is not on the way back to you. I have spent 8 years studying this in my own life, and almost as many reading stories here. I have never seen this method "work" to do anything except twist the LBS back into fourteen pretzels and potentially end up negotiating against him/herself. Consider our friend Grace. She did start listening when her H was testing the waters to come back, and it worked out. But she didn't really listen to the nonsense when he was secreting their savings away to buy a condo with the OW. She kept firm to building a life for herself and insisting on a default sort of 50-50 split. When he began testing the waters, she was still firm but she listened enough for him to feel safe to keep thinking about returning.
I thought my H was returning several times, and I was open then and led down a path of hope that never materialized. That wasn't a waste. At least I know I did all I could. But I was also open when he spewed and abused me. That not only did not work to help him come back, it also allowed my children to witness bona fide abuse and led to a level of PTSD that I have only partially revealed here. I used to spend a hour a day crying on the floor of my church and every evening hiding in my room or going out to work at a cafe from 10 pm to 1 am to avoid being in the house, not knowing if my kids would wake up and find drunk H passed out on the couch.
I say all this pedagogically. Learn from me.
Do not listen to a word he says. Do not have conversations about the D. Do not negotiate with him verbally. Do not let him look at you when you negotiate. Figure out your bottom line, and then send him, in writing an offer that doesn't go as far as your bottom line so that it might seem like his idea when he offers your bottom line. Do not think of this as having anything to do with your marriage, your goodness as a wife/mother/woman/human. This is pure pragmatism, it is about efficiency, to get through the D as quickly as possible. You can cry and rage and spiral on all those other things you have been telling us here, but do that separately and without any chance of H knowing about it. Do not show him your heart. He doesn't want it and he can't see it. He also is not worthy of it. Your heart has no place in this money talk. When you brush your teeth, you follow a certain protocol and you get your teeth clean. You don't think about the trauma you had at the dentist or how you have been the best or worst toothbrusher or why you didn't ever get your H the right toothbrush. This is how clear you must be about money stuff. The money stuff is not about love. Or, rather, it is, but you can't see it that way or you will find yourself stuck in this tar pit for three going on four years like poor Gerda. Spend a lot of time punching things and screaming in a padded room, do whatever you want, but not when you draft notices to H. Do not let him know anything about how you feel. If he ever seems to be coming out this, you will know. You can reveal bits and pieces then. Not now.
Here is my revision of what would really happen if you tried that dialogue D suggested, at least with my H.
Me: I still feel strongly about my share of your pension.
H: Yes, that's exactly why I would never be with you. Because you are so grasping, so focused on your domestic needs. I worked my a-- off for that, and you did nothing. I sweated blood while you took the kids to the park.
Me: I'm sorry you feel that way.
<silence>
H: You think you are going to take everything from me while I destroy myself? You can forget it. Look at this place.
Me: (starting to panic, throat tightening but desperate to work out a deal) Ok, let’s say I leave your pension alone. What do you propose?
H: I don't care what you do. That's your problem. I am starting a life that is authentic and true. I know what's mine and you will hear from my lawyer. And stop emasculating me in front of my children. They will finally know what it means to be a man, they will not see me through your eyes anymore.
<small pause>
Me: I am trying to work this out.
H: You don't even know how to work out how to clean this house.
Me: I am not going to sit here for this. I didn't do anything to you. I have waited for you and tried to do everything for this family.
H: You don't even know how to love. You don't even know what that means. Why don't you ask your God what it takes to love? I'm not talking about this. I am not talking with you. Get away from me.
Etc.
That was actually a tame version.
This is what I would send via e-mail --
Hi, H.
I'd love to settle this situation without mediation or lawyers. It's not working to talk about it, so I'm sending along this e-mail.
Looks like in (our state) I would be awarded $9000 a year from your pension and probably around $10,000 a year of alimony for the next ten years. That would end up as somewhere in between $100,000 and $200,000 all told. It would be a little more if you kept working.
You are owed $4000 from our savings and your half of the car would be another $5000, so that brings us down to $90,000 to $190,000 all told from pension and alimony.
We could do a lump sum payment now of $110,000 and each save at least 20K on lawyers and not have to go through the hell of divorce court. I would be okay with half when we sign the agreement and the other half when we go to sign the actual divorce decree.
If this can work with you, or you want to modify it, send your proposal via e-mail.
If not, we could try mediation with one of these two mediators that were recommended by the (local law school). If you have a mediator, I'd be glad to try that person too, just send along the contact info.
- Cardinal
If he refuses either of these ideas, you can wait til you hear from his lawyer or you can hire a lawyer and if he writes to you, just reply, "I'm sorry we couldn't work it out and am still open to the proposal I sent or to hearing your modification of that proposal. Otherwise here's my L's contact info. Thanks."
I had so much work to do that I don't want to do tonight. So that's why I just took way too much time writing this!
XO
Last edited by Gerda; 06/07/2112:26 AM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
Gerda—how lucky that I can benefit from your procrastination! I do recognize the uselessness in trying to communicate in your script. I can see where you and D really both start with figuring out the bottom line. I think the fuzziness I feel around that is contributing to my anxiety. I need to estimate pension and support and know what default settlement would be. I know what he makes now, and I know how that will increase if he stays in the same position. I’m not sure what variables to use to estimate the pension bottom line. I know the future value is more important. I know there is the COLA benefit that goes with that. I don’t know whether to estimate a range based on current salary, estimated salary in 10 years, at retirement (60 or 65 as a baseline?), etc. And then I don’t know what variable to use to estimate then how long he/I would be receiving pension payouts. Along the same lines, initially my L said spousal support would be calculated at ~1000/year: he makes around 25k more.
Should I have my L help me with this or can I estimate on my own? I do get overwhelmed with all of this— not quite knowing how to determine my bottom line, and I know it would empower me to have clarity. I think I could quiet some of my anxiety with that clarity. Right now my L is standing by as nothing had happened after I filed my response.
Scout, I missed your question before! It is a good question. I know of two reasons: 1. Because I don’t want him to think badly of me. (Irrational, and I realize it’s not my job to convince him of my intentions, that he’s going to hold a number of things against me no matter what, and that this feeling should no way play into the business part of this. Still, it is strong and I have to remember to be aware that it exists so that it doesn’t affect my decision making.) 2. I am afraid it will drag this process out even more. It’s been two years (even though he didn’t file until 1 1/2 years in), and as much as I am comfortable with the periods of time when things are calm and friendly, I’m reminded he’s not my friend right now and is can only think of himself. I need to get out of this situation for my health. So there’s the emotional component of it potentially dragging out and the financial component that goes along with that that I’m afraid of.
There is also the need to remember not to solve problems en route. I need a guide that says do this next little step; wait. I did try to take the weekend off from thinking about all of it. I’ve been eating strawberry shortcake, shortcakes made from a new recipe with a bit of cornmeal—finally a shortcake I enjoy! I gathered a bouquet of flowers from the garden for a neighbor. I wrote a note to a friend.
Please don't be dissapointed in yourself. It is very hard to negotiate with somebody who simply doesn't listen to you. I'm in the same situation currently so know all about it.
I can't give you more advice than the comments you've received above. This is worth a lot, as it comes from experienced people, and there are not many out there who've been through this.
Seen the little number of people posting in the MLC section I even think very few to be honest...
And thank you Gerda, for your excellent advice in regards to the firm way of interacting with your H when they are not on the way back. I needed this as the past week I was drawn back in and really felt bad. But now again on track.
Give yourself some time Cardinal, you will know which way to go forward for sure!
Take care!!
Me(45)EXH(44) M:15 T:18, S19, S16 & S16 04/19-02/20 ILYB & OW1 12/20-08/22 OW2 (+pregnant-his child) 03/22-Divorce official 06/22-08/23 Reconnecting 09/23-possible back with OW2
You are doing the best you can with the knowledge you have. Do not worry, do not be afraid.
Let's suppose you do everything wrong and you walk away with six dollars. That's okay. You will rebuild your life.
Let's suppose you do everything right and you walk away with 300,000 dollars. That makes some things easier. You will rebuild your life.
Just keep walking through the desert. Don't think you can do anything perfectly. You can't. You can just try to protect yourself from extra suffering. You will have plenty of suffering without the extra.
My experience with lawyers has not been good. If you are smart, you can figure out a lot of this yourself. I don't mean not to have one. If you can get a really good one, it is great to have one! But they will never care as much as you do or do as much research as you are willing to do. You can save some billable hours and equip yourself by finding out some stuff yourself.
Can you call the retirement office at his work to get information in general about how pensions work without talking about him specifically?
Can you call AARP and ask for help?
Can you meet with a certified divorce financial analyst? That's a whole field and they have an organization where you can find one. They will know how to calculate this.
You may not get the exact number. Who cares? You're only using the number as a way to get leverage anyway. The perfect exact number would come out of a trial, determined by a judge. You're just finding a number that gets kinda close to it so you can tell The Alien H, "Hey, I'd get about this much over twenty years, so how about we settle on this much less in a lump sum?"
I think you have to get a little feeling power about this. I recognize your confusion very well because I did the same thing. Fair warning! Now I am a force to be reckoned with. I wrote a review of my H's lawyer on a popular review site recently and I am pretty sure that at the last conference, not only did he look even more like an idiot than usual with his unprofessional spewing, but at one point he was so spitting mad that I am pretty sure he cried a little. Little Gerda who used to be so afraid of him now made him cry.
Last edited by Gerda; 06/07/2106:26 PM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
$1,000 a year in alimony is very little. One option might be to have him agree to pay higher alimony in place of the pension - but that could be risky as he might not pay or might quit his job and take off to travel the world. As I recall (correct me if I'm confusing your thread with another) you both are staying in the rental home because it is a good deal and you anticipate rent would be higher if you moved, correct? So maybe in place of alimony you could bargain for staying in your current rental, which would save you more than $1,000 a year?
The lump sum buyout is the other thing you can offer him.
One way to do a quick and dirty calculation - I love the Ultimate Retirement Calculator by Financial Mentor. It's free, easy, and you can run many different scenarios very quickly.
If I put in that you need $8,000 a year in retirement (in today's dollars, the pension value to you) and put in 3% annual inflation and estimate total growth in investments at 7.5% until age 65 and a more conservative 5% after that age, and estimate that you are 45 and will retire at 67, and live to age 90 - putting in as "present savings" the amount of a lump sum payment from H, looks like it would cost approximately $66,000 for him to buy you out with a lump sum that, if invested, would generate the equivalent of $8,000 a year in today's dollars, adjusted for inflation. IF he could come up with that money (or even, say, $50,000 and he takes on all the debt) you could either invest that money for retirement, or use that money as a down payment for a home if you think you know where you will want to live for the next decade or so. Being able to buy a home may or may not be a good investment for the future, many things are involved, but it you think it is likely that you would want to stay where you are, a home that you could pay off by retirement, that you could bring in income by having roommates, could be worth more to you in the long run than the pension.
You can also use this calculator to enter various values like your expected social security benefits, expected pension benefit from your job, retirement savings, inheritances etc. It has been invaluable to me in planning my own retirement finances. Also recommend you play around with assumptions about inflation and investment returns.
Last edited by job; 06/08/2106:40 PM. Reason: added link to new thread
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
). My brain seems to want to either spend time trying to solve fun work problems (productive) or H "problems" (not productive), and though I don't get stuck in the latter as much, I'm seeing that I need to work on retraining my brain to just