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Sage, bttrfly, PLC, thanks for your support. I am going on not much sleep, because H did hear from his L and came home majorly monstering last night just as I was trying to go to bed. It was pretty much what I'd expected--he repeated all the statements he's made before blaming me for where we're at now, for not communicating in our M or for the past year, said all his friends and his L told him a sexless marriage means he should get an annulment, said my L is now making up reasons he can't get an annulment (those reasons are called the law?), called me a b****, etc. etc. I felt trapped. He was in my room and my room doesn't have a door. My plan had been to leave the house for a bit if this happened, but it was late, and I had nowhere to go, and I knew I had a big day at work today and needed to get sleep. I said I wouldn't interact with him because he wasn't treating me with respect, but he just kept going. He again brought up this time post-BD when I was cutting grass outside and didn't ask him for some tool I could have used from the shed (why ask him for anything? I figure things out myself, take care of things myself now. I find it curious he is stuck on this instance. Translation: His identity is based on caregiving to the point of resentment and he can't stand not having that dynamic in place?)

Eventually he seemed to run out of anger and started talking about himself. I don't know if this will be helpful to anyone else dealing with a pod person. It was like Jekyll and Hyde--I saw him morph from monster back into an echo of the person I knew. He cried. He jumped from topic to topic but said, among other things:

--he knows he held all of his feelings in and when he couldn't do it anymore, everything blew up, and it was like I was collateral damage. He didn't intend it. He thought we would be M forever too. But then his unhappiness caught up with him and he had to kill part of himself in order to get un-stuck. He had to make a big change. He apologized. He talked again about knowing that was unhealthy and he can't push down feelings any longer--his IC worked with him on that until he had to stop seeing her because she was just pointing out problems he didn't have. He knows it's not healthy to supress feelings, so now he just gets angry when he's angry, even when he's in public, and other people can deal with it. (Translation: he's still pushing a lot down and wasn't ready to deal with that with IC. He understands he can have emotions now, but still doesn't know how to work through them, so just unleashes them on others.

--he still cares about me even though he's not in love with me (yet it's clear to me he doesn't understand what this means--to care about me would have meant filing for D when he said he was going to a year ago and supporting me with the money I would be entitled to. He still is going on about how I don't deserve his pension--well, you know, that is what I'm entitled to and someone who cared about me would understand that that was supposed to be for my future too.)

--he feels like he did everything for me in our M, gave and gave and gave, and I didn't love him the same amount; he wasn't as important to me as I was to him, and he kept waiting for me to give him what he needed (sex, whatever other unspecified ways I should have been putting him first?). He felt unloveable, he felt worthless. (Translation: This is partly the effect of the SSM, partly that he is way more insecure than I ever realized--it makes sense why I could never "convince" him that I did love him, that he was more important to me than X or Y). Then he started talking about how he does everything for everyone in his life (complained about two specific friends, one of which he's dropped), always has, and no one recognizes this or does the things he needs or shows him the same amount of love in return. (Translation: this is not just about me! This is about a whole pattern in his life he has pinned on our M. I thought of something Wayfarer wrote recently, about the nature of love, and I just wanted to say, "H, this is going to keep happening if you view all of your R as transactional. If you only perform acts of service or love or whatever because you expect somethin in return and then don't receive it, you keep building resentment, and those acts are no longer true acts of love or service." It's like *I* can see, at least in part, what's making him angry an unhappy, and I can see how that will keep happening beyond our M, but I know he can't, and I can't point this out to him.

--We should have been having sex in our marriage but we were just on our phones all the time (Yes, building and maintaining intimacy takes work. I really wanted to point out that I had had convos with him about not being on our phones when we were together, and he always got angry and refused to put away his phone. No point to this, I know.)

--He doesn't want Ls and he doesn't want any of these things his L is demanding I give him. He doesn't want to do it this way. (This is all his choice, and he can make different choices at any time.) He didn't file for a D for so long because even though he knew his feelings wouldn't change, he was scared. And then he filed for an annulment because his L told him he could and because he was angry. (He still talks about it as if I should accept it because it's easier an less expensive than a D--is confused when I suggest otherwise. Translation: still doesn't see me as an equal partner in the M who is entitled by law to certain things in D.)


At the end he apologized for the anger he'd confronted me with--he had just gotten news from L and was angry.

So, friends, what do I learn from all this? How can I better take care of me? I see that I've made progress in that I'm not completely drawn into the gaslighting. But I'm also not in a place where I can completely withstand it yet. The whole time I felt dizzy and confused and anxious and scared and still had that tendency to feel like maybe what he was saying was true, maybe he's right on some level...

I don't fully regret staying in the room, because all of this confirmed for me that he is far from okay--he is still working through anger in unhealthy ways and though he blames this on me, it's clear that he is just putting all of the issues with everyone in his life on me. He doesn't know to express his feelings in healthy ways, so he is still going to spew at will and see that as progress in that he's not holding his feelings in. I see so much of his dad in him here (he's quick to anger) and his mom (she's a major people pleaser and struggles with boundaries, but she realizes this, whereas H doesn't realize this about himself). He needs to get to a point where he can go back to IC, but who knows if or when that will happen. He's going to need help getting to a more healthy place in his life, and I am not the person who can help him.

I also think if I had left the house (to sit in my car in the dark?), the L situation would have escalated, his anger would have escalated, and instead he ended up talking his way to several apologies. (But it's not like this means he won't get angry again tomorrow and escalate things with L, so...)

At the same time, I feel like I was just his punching bag for an hour. He didn't know what to do with his feelings, so he unleashed anger on me. Then tried to process some of what's gone on for him in the last two+ years with me, all while saying I didn't communicate and didn't try to save our M in the last year and never talk to him anymore. I'm thinking of your H here, May, and how you don't have to be the one to do his work for him; you can't be that person. I wanted to say that I don't owe H conversation or small talk. I wanted to say that he fired me as his W, and he can't be hurt when I don't go out of my way to talk to him or accuse me of not communicating with him anymore. But this person doesn't understand things the way rational people do. Everything is just more justification for why I am at fault and he is not. He isn't capable of seeing how he starts a "convo" with calling me names and saying I don't deserve respect is the obvious answer to why I "don't communicate" with him. I get it--he's not capable of self-awareness. But that doesn't mean he gets to take his anger out on me. And of course this meant that I couldn't sleep, was physically feeling sick, and now am running on fumes today, with echoes of everything he said constantly playing in my head.

I did finally say something like, if I don't talk to you, it is not because I don't want to communicate, but because I have been hurt, and I need to protect myself now. He seemed to get that in the moment, but I doubt it will stick.





Last edited by cardinal; 12/03/20 04:14 PM.

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I am so sorry that he performed the Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde routine. You are going to see a lot of this along the way when he doesn't get his way. They flip from being "a bit normal to raving lunatics" in a matter of seconds) I found that the only way to deal w/my xh when he was like this was to change the subject very quickly. It throws them off balance.

Right now, you can't help him understand. Why? Because he's not being rational when he's that angry. You can't rationalize w/a nut.

He honestly doesn't have a clue as to what he wants. In his little mind, he thinks that he can use you as a punching bag, because you are a safe place to do so, but he doesn't understand that you are not a punching bag and you have feelings and they have been hurt. You must remember that his empathy chip is broken. You and only you are the sane one right now and you have to make your decisions on what the law states, not on his pity parties that tend to be coming out to play. They do not realize that there are consequences to every action that we all make and right now, he can't see the forest for the trees.

You handled yourself quite well...hang in there. I can't state enough that you will need to dig deeper for patience and you are not at fault for what is going on within his soul right now. You can't fix him because you didn't break him. You are a good person and I realize that you are replaying the conversation over and over in your head...but realize this...he's good at projection. You and only you know whether what he is saying is "live or memorex. Please do not allow his gaslighting or comments get to you. He's like a 2 year old, having a tantrum, because he can't get his way.


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Hi Cardinal,

I started a response to you the other day, but it got lost, and then PLC said to you the exact same thing I wanted to-- this is NOT your fault. This is all on him. And to be going through this trauma on top of the pandemic and a new job and everything else--- that is just an enormous amount of background anxiety that any human being would have difficulty coping with. My brain has been swiss cheese since the start of all of this. I really only feel in the last couple of weeks that I've started to get my brain back in the game at work, and am realizing that is only because I'm spending less mental energy thinking about my H.

I think you handled this situation well, so well. Don't beat yourself up over not walking away when it happened. It was great that you had a plan for how to deal with it but it didn't work out that way, and that is okay. Also, maybe go back and read some of your posts from the spring and see just how far you've come in reacting to something like this. I know you aren't feeling 100% today-- who would-- but I think this same conversation six months ago would have knocked you on your back for days. That no longer is the case. You're strong, you're perceptive, you see so clearly what is going on, and you're taking the steps you need to take to protect yourself.

For me, at least, some amount of listening to what was going on in my H's head at certain points was helpful. Some things I'd do when I was in the "validate at all costs" stage-- where I no longer am, and I don't think you're there either-- included physically relaxing my face, focusing on my breathing, and thinking things to myself with an interested look on my face-- helped. When you were in the sitch, did you notice anything you did that helped? If you can, I might think through and see what strategies you might be able to employ if it happens again and you aren't able to easily extract yourself from the conversation. Or, have some strategies in mind to help yourself exit from the conversation-- maybe I'm really sorry, I can't talk with you right now, I need to use the restroom, and go in there to give him a bit of time to cool down.

Originally Posted by cardinal
At the same time, I feel like I was just his punching bag for an hour. He didn't know what to do with his feelings, so he unleashed anger on me. Then tried to process some of what's gone on for him in the last two+ years with me, all while saying I didn't communicate and didn't try to save our M in the last year and never talk to him anymore. I'm thinking of your H here, May, and how you don't have to be the one to do his work for him; you can't be that person. I wanted to say that I don't owe H conversation or small talk. I wanted to say that he fired me as his W, and he can't be hurt when I don't go out of my way to talk to him or accuse me of not communicating with him anymore. But this person doesn't understand things the way rational people do. Everything is just more justification for why I am at fault and he is not.

I think you're doing so well, Cardinal. You're right in that there is simply no point in trying to say any of that to him. He can't hear it. (He had to leave his IC because she kept bringing up problems that he didn't have????? OMG.)

You didn't break him, therefore you can't fix him. In my case, my H and I are in a mutual truce of sorts where we don't talk about R stuff and I think it is good for both of us. In your case and where you are with your sitch right now, I don't see your H being able to respect any boundaries you have-- holding onto anger for you not asking him for help with mowing the lawn??? that is just SO WEIRD!!!-- and I worry a little bit about what comes next in your sitch with you two in the same house, and the pandemic making escape difficult.

Have you talked to your L about the process? His L is clearly a nut too and feeding his fantasy annulment scheme. I'm wondering what it will take for your H to see reason and drop the annulment BS so that you can have a real conversation or negotiation about an equitable D. I just worry that the scenario from last night has the potential to play out many more times, every time he gets an answer from his L that he doesn't like, and he has no-where to process it alone and neither do you.

Can you put a door on your room? With a lock?

Hoping you can focus on work today and feel a bit better. I echo job in really really really hoping you are able to brush his gaslighting off your shoulders like invisible dust and hold your head high. Did you read that passage on DnJ's thread about detachment and breaking off the coupling mechanism from the trailer? That imagery really stuck with me, and I'm feeling like right now what all of us cultivating detachment should be doing is caring for that broken loop-- not to repair it, but to sand it down and burnish it and repaint it so that it is whole again, and the hook slides right off with no-where to grab onto.

You are whole. You are worthy. You are loving and compassionate and this is not your fault. (((C)))


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Thanks, job and may. job, your reminders to dig deep for patience are always so helpful.

Originally Posted by may22
My brain has been swiss cheese since the start of all of this.
Thank you for saying this, may! This is such a good way to describe it. I'm glad you're feeling like you're getting back in the game. Lockdown is coming again (here it's already started), and I wonder how you're feeling about that. I guess since you and H are already working from home, maybe it won't change much. I've been reading your thread still even if I don't post, and I'll pop back over there.

And you're right to remind me to look how far I've come in reacting to something like this. The morning after my encounter with H, I woke up and had to post here. (I am so, so grateful for this place always--that it exists, that you all get what it's like to live through this , that you again and again offer up your wisdom and hugs and perspectives.) I had a full work day and a check-in/review with my supervisor that went really well. She confirmed that she was impressed with my work, which made me feel good—like I must be managing to do okay even with swiss cheese brain. By the time I talked to my IC a day and a half later, I could tell I've come a long way, because I was able to work through a lot of my feelings before I even talked with her.

I've also been reflecting more about things H said, not in a stressed-out kind of way, but in a putting-the-pieces-together kind of way. First there was sadness, because it was weird to get even a brief glimpse of the H I knew and hear that he had to kill part of himself to get out of the place he was in. I believe that. I've also been able to have some distance from this whole thing in a way I haven't been able to before. I've been re-reading some of the sticky links, going back to basics: MLC, depression, Amy C's words. Last year, I'd read these threads looking for confirmation. Was H in MLC? Part of me didn't believe it. Earlier this year, I wondered whether it might be a personality disorder. Why does it all suddenly make so much sense? As H talked more and more the other night, and as I reflected on his words after, it seemed as if he'd hit all the points of MLC, though at a slant. Where before I might have been too busy being confused by his projections, I was instead able to listen to what he was saying and what he wasn't saying, and it was a lightbulb moment, like everything, finally, made a kind of sense.

H feels fundamentally unworthy, unloveable, and every time he overextends himself for a friend or for me, every time he gives and gives and gives, it's an attempt to convince himself he is worthy of love. If I do X, even though I don't want to do it, they will love me and I will deserve their love. He expects something in return and doesn't get it, and he begins to resent those he loves. He begins to feel his gestures are under-appreciated, he is unappreciated. What does he expect? What does he want but never get? I think he wants someone to make him believe, finally, that he deserves love no matter what. That he is worthy of love no matter what. But no one can ever give this to him; he has to find it and believe it himself.

He's gained a little self-awareness since last year, at least momentarily--he apologized to me three times over the course of the hour. He can see that he was desperate to get himself out of the dark place he was in (which sounds to me a lot like depression), though he still thinks he has mostly left that place. I can see he is still there, and not ready for someone like IC to help him understand it and find his way out of it.

I can see his pain didn't originate in our R, though it was there the whole time, at first under the surface. It's been with H since childhood. H viewed our M through this lens, and his friendships through this lens. It's also there in his R with his mom, and I'm guessing in a more painful way with his dad, who he doesn't have much of a relationship with. I don't think he's connected any of this to them yet, and maybe that's a place he wasn't ready to go with IC.

I mean, this is like MLC 101, right? It's like it's been right in front of me the whole time, but I'm only now able to get it. I do believe there is hope he'll keep progressing along his path, though it may take a long time. I don't know where I'll be, but I wish somehow I could save him some pain now and later. I do think he will eventually understand that so much of this is internal and not external, but there is no way for me to help him see what I see. Self-awareness is hard--getting that distance from yourself is hard, especially, I imagine, when you are in the middle of an emotional storm.

H doesn't believe that I've put any effort into "saving the M" over the year and a half, but I think I must have learned some DB lessons if he somehow felt I was a safe place to let this all out, and if I was able to hear more than just the blame. I don't know where we go from here, may. He said he's not happy with the way this is playing out, and I know it is in his power to change it. It's possible he'll drop the annulment BS. And it's possible that he'll remember none of our conversation, that he'll start right up yelling about my L again next time I see him. I suppose I should get back to sanding my trailer--all that ongoing work toward detaching and strengthening my values and beliefs.


Last edited by cardinal; 12/07/20 12:59 AM.

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Hello Cardinal

You did very well in the conversation with H. Validating and not arguing are key. MLCers are irrational and cannot see your point of view; they can’t even keep their own points of view straight. They ping ping around and Jekyll and Hyde often.

For what it’s worth, you did really well letting him vent. At first, when we are so hurt and lost, we must go dark/dim and place boundaries on such behaviour. Later, once we gain our center and strength, letting the MLCer vent (to a point) is actually a good thing. They need to burn the anger out of themselves. You saw the benefit of that as H’s behaviour changed throughout the conversation.

If you can listen and not take what he says too seriously, and definitely don’t take it personally, you will learn a lot of what is going on within him. H is projection upon you. He is lashing out, then backing off, because you are the safe place to land. His confusion is evident, as well as his desperation to find peace from his pain. Most definitely MLC.

H is still an emotional mess and his empathy chip is still broken. And I agree with you, I think H has made some progress; still a long way to go, but progress nonetheless.

Your own progress is very good. I’m glad to hear how clearly this all appears to you. It takes a certain amount of understanding to let go. Then compassion, empathy, ... you know, that inner work. smile

Time and space my friend. Give H plenty of both. Dig deep for patience and focus on you. Remember, H cannot even handle his own emotions, never mind anyone else’s. He needs time, and no pressure. And you are doing a great job!

Sanding the trailer. I’m glad I was a positive influence. (And for you too May)

Have a wonderful day.

D


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cardinal, I feel the same way. Sometimes I wonder how my life would play out if BD didn't happen... with all these emotional turmoil happening under the surface throughout the years of our M, I really was clueless.

I follow the holistic psychologist on IG and a lot of what she says about trauma, conditioning, and ego is spot on with the whole MLC thing also. Maybe you can also check that out.

One last thing is this - he might view you as a safe place to land, but do you still want to be his safe place?

For me, I no longer want to be that because the line is blurry and it's hard to set that boundary. A safe place to land sometimes inadvertently means a verbal punching bag. MLCers are not great at distinguishing the difference. lol!


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Hi Cardinal,

How are you feeling with some distance from that conversation? How have things been going? Any Christmas baking? smile

xx M


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Somehow it's nearly Christmas. Why, yes, I have been baking, may: ginger spice cookies, (the first batched sandwiched with lemon buttercream), chocolate shortbread with cacao nibs, and shortbread with fig jam—I have one more cookie delivery to make to a neighbor. I wish I could share some with all of you! Future baking projects include something with cranberries (currently leaning toward an upside-down cake) and sticky buns. I turned in grades and have one day left at job #2, and am off from job #3 until January. My vacation days have not been quite as action-packed as DnJ's so far! I bake, I cook, I read, get to winter garden chores I haven't had time to do. This is the rest I've been waiting for, after the craziness of the fall. I was craving bakery-style butter cookies with red and green sprinkles, so I made a half-batch just for me. I eat cookies for breakfast if I want to.

Lots to be grateful for, punctuated with some sadness too. Missing my family. Missing MIL (I did end up mailing her a short note with warm wishes at Thanksgiving, but haven't done anything for Christmas). Missing my old life when I had all this time at home. Missing old H a little.

I found the queen of our aging flock dead, which is something I'd been afraid of, since H had always been the one to deal with this kind of thing in the past. I hesitated for a minute and then called H to let him know she'd died—I found I had no expectations that he would comfort me or react in any particular way. I just felt it right to tell him. I made it through just fine. We only have two chickens left now, though, and it gets dicey, because you can't have just one chicken. Now I'm wondering how your chickens are, bttrfly, and your son, too.

I am grateful H has been mostly gone this week; the house has been quiet. Neither of us has family here, and the thought of spending Christmas week with him was bumming me out.

Originally Posted by DnJ
If you can listen and not take what he says too seriously, and definitely don’t take it personally, you will learn a lot of what is going on within him.


I thought I did pretty well at that, but then found myself struggling with a delayed wave of doubt and guilt a week or so after his "conversation." Could I really have done more after BD to show him I didn't want to lose him, did/do love him? His words got to me--his view that I didn't care enough, didn't love him enough. I know, though, no matter what else I would have done or said, he just wasn't in a place to see/hear/receive/believe any of it. Nor is he in that place now. I checked in on Sage's thread and really identified with her posts and others' responses, especially Gerda's. I realized I'd been spending so much time, once again, focused on H's pain and what I could have done better or different, when I should be focusing on me, acknowledging my pain too. I was spending so much energy on gathering all of this empathy for H that I forgot to have it for myself. This really hit home:

Originally Posted by Gerda
Worse yet, you'll apologize to H that he had to go through the pain of destroying you -- not directly, but by this simmering feeling you have, and which I recognize quite well.


I don't even think I realized this is what was happening until I read this. You'll apologize to H that he had to go through the pain of destroying you... Oof. I think this feeling is at the root of where I tend to find myself stuck--somewhere inside I feel I should apologize and apologize and apologize, even for the decisions H has made and is making. As if somehow I must have justified all of this.

Originally Posted by wooba
One last thing is this - he might view you as a safe place to land, but do you still want to be his safe place?


I've been thinking about this. I want to be a safe place to land, maybe, but for him? For him now? Not on a regular basis. Not when he's still flying with anger and confusion and all the other feelings clouding his view.

Well, I suppose I should get outside before it gets dark and make that last cookie delivery. Happy Holidays to everyone here! I hope you are all finding some joy in this season, and can enjoy a cookie or two, maybe even for breakfast. Kindly, if you're out there--I've been thinking of you lately, and I hope you are taking care. xoxo


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Good Morning cardinal

Oh, the baking sound delicious. And eating cookies for breakfast. lol.

Originally Posted by cardinal
I thought I did pretty well at that, but then found myself struggling with a delayed wave of doubt and guilt a week or so after his "conversation." Could I really have done more after BD to show him I didn't want to lose him, did/do love him? His words got to me--his view that I didn't care enough, didn't love him enough. I know, though, no matter what else I would have done or said, he just wasn't in a place to see/hear/receive/believe any of it. Nor is he in that place now.

A little re-write for you:

Quote
I thought I did pretty well at that, but and then found myself struggling with a delayed wave of doubt and guilt a week or so after his "conversation."

The followup doubts and questions are normal. Could I have done more? Showed him more? Would it have made a difference?

H was/is in a place where he is unable to hear or receive any of that. His own emotionally pains are being projected upon you. He cannot handle his own emotions, so he throws them at you. “You didn’t care enough. Didn’t love enough.” Is actually about him - it is he that didn’t care or love enough. And he knows it and cannot face it.

A MLCer is torn apart. Desperate and full of despair. And they justify and blame their spouse. They have a lot of growing and healing to do, before they can look inward towards the actual source of their torment.

Whatever kernels of truth lay within his blame and justifications; deal with those. Become better. Grow and heal.

You cannot fight him directly. He isn’t even listening to himself. His view is what it is, for now. And you know better. Hang on to that. Believe that.


Merry Christmas my friend.

And if you have any “extra” baking, I like sweets at breakfast. smile

D


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Well, now I have extra sticky buns, so feel free to stop by! Or I can mail you one. smile Three sticks of butter for 9 buns, plus honey, heavy cream, brown sugar, pecans... fitting for Christmas morning. Although I couldn't eat lunch after that!

Sticky buns aside, I wasn't feeling great yesterday, so I stayed in my pajamas and napped, read some books. I was dismayed and surprised when H returned in the afternoon; since he'd been gone for a week, I really thought he'd be gone through Christmas day. He's still in nice mode, wishing me Merry Christmas, changing the hard-reach air filter for the first time since BD, etc. From my outside perspective, these periods always seems to follow the anger and outbursts. It appears to me that he feels lighter, feels that he's gotten some of that pain out, and all is well with his life again finally. Then some pain will rise up inevitably and he has to beat it down again. That's the cycle. His uncle called to wish him a Merry Christmas, and I had to put headphones on. The call didn't last long, maybe five minutes. I miss his family. I miss all of our holiday traditions with them. His is a small family--really only his mom, dad and longtime girlfriend, uncle and cousins. At Christmas, I miss him being a part of my much larger family, which he fit into so well. Everyone loved him.

Originally Posted by DnJ
H was/is in a place where he is unable to hear or receive any of that. His own emotionally pains are being projected upon you. He cannot handle his own emotions, so he throws them at you. “You didn’t care enough. Didn’t love enough.” Is actually about him - it is he that didn’t care or love enough. And he knows it and cannot face it.

Didn't care enough, didn't love enough--I think he feels this way toward his mom and old friends as well and, again, all the anger and pain of it is pinned to me. The projection, when you put it this way, is also that he feels he really can't care enough or love enough to receive or deserve love in return. I see it's a whole tangled ball of yarn, not just me, yet I still have that urge to address what I can, what little part of the yarn might be mine. I saw his pain and not just his anger for once (even though I see that the anger is just a different manifestation of his pain), and it's made me miss him anew.

Post-BD, we are told to show up differently, to make changes for us, and to enact them, not talk about them. Did I do that? I stopped being defensive, I wrote the apology letter, I gave him a very thoughtful, heartfelt anniversary gift (these last two not DB recommended, but I chose to do both because the actions felt right to me, true to me and the changes I was committed to making, and in my case I don't think they made anything worse or better—they were more for me than him, though do I still have that hope that someday he will actually be able to see these gifts for what they were and receive them? Yep.); from time to time in the first six months I did try to make space for communication between us, a few times overtly by saying things like, "I don't want there to be any misunderstanding between us, so if you ever have questions, I hope you'll feel free to ask me," and "I'm here if you ever want to talk about ____" after his friend died; I showed up like a friendly neighbor when he did want to make small talk; I said nothing about his new habits of drinking and staying out all night. My big 180 for me was making a move on him (either before there was or before I knew about potential OW), because I was tired of being held back by my own fear of being vulnerable and not expressing my desire. This last one must have really surprised him, because he's mentioned it a couple of times since--"You never did anything like that in our R!" I don't know what to make of that. I think it's probably fueled his anger and hurt over SSM (the "It's too late now!" kind of thing), but it was probably the biggest action that I took to show myself that I wouldn't settle for SSM anymore, and that I wouldn't be held back by fear or doubt. (Also, as an aside, I was just thinking of how weird that would feel now, because he really does seem like a stranger most of the time, though if I squint really hard, I can still see the H I knew.)

Does all of that show love? It didn't register for him, consciously, at least, but does it register for me as love? Isn't love also what we *don't* do after BD? I never blamed the state of our M on him, never made remarks that might guilt or shame him for what he was doing, for walking away, for taking off his ring, for not filing, for dating someone else. (That doesn't mean that I sometimes don't still want to tell him how disappointed I am by all this). What if he actually doesn't remember a lot of this because he was just so out of it for most of that time? I guess technically he has the apology letter and the anniversary note, and he definitely remembers the move I made...

Is it really that I could have done more, or is that in trying to answer this question it's like I'm relying on someone who is momentarily blind to see all the love letters I've laid out in front of him?


Originally Posted by DnJ
You cannot fight him directly. He isn’t even listening to himself. His view is what it is, for now. And you know better. Hang on to that. Believe that.


He isn't even listening to himself.

Maybe what this comes down to is that I want to know, whether he does or not, that I was open, was willing to be vulnerable, to look at myself and make changes (and this is different than feeling like I need to pretzel in order to "win" him back). I do know all of this is true. What I guess I don't know is if I "showed" this as much as I could.

Sometimes I think of it this way: post BD, I've only had H's exterior to go on, and if I didn't know any better from reading and this place, I'd think H was living his best life and has no grief whatsoever over the end of our M (I mean, I still struggle with thinking that at times! Thinking of the exchanges I've had with Kindly on this). So does he see me the same way? Does he look at me--almost never crying in front of him since BD, always polite, seemingly confident, doing my own thing--and think the same thing? That the end of our M didn't really affect me? That it was a little sad but then I moved on, see, I really didn't love him that much!

I realize I'm getting sucked into this somewhat pointless hypothetical, as if there was anything I could actually *do* to make him see me differently while he's in this state. Do I need a DB 2x4?

Sometimes I just feel so dull and wooden around him, like I'm going through the motions. Good morning! Merry Christmas! I feel so reserved, so far away, like I am in the middle of a large costumed me, pushing buttons to nod my head or make words come out. I want to be me. I want to be real. Is it just unfortunate that there was some distance between us before BD, and there is no way to change that now? Just unlucky that I want to be real and can't do that with my current roommate, so that makes me feel like I'm not?


Last edited by cardinal; 12/26/20 06:36 PM.

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