Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 8 of 11 1 2 6 7 8 9 10 11
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 239
Likes: 2
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 239
Likes: 2
Originally Posted by Dawn70
I'm wondering why the push to attend counseling with S. You have already decided this thing isn't right for you, but now you seem to be back-pedaling to working on it. Which is fine, if that is the choice you are making, but is counseling really going to change anything?

I'm confused by this Dawn. Because Andrew said this about his couples counseling session-
Originally Posted by AndrewP
Setting aside a "good" outcome, the ideal outcome would be for the counselor to work with us on how to end things in a respectful, compassionate, but definitive fashion. It saddens me to think that.

A good outcome would be to provide me / us with the tools to be able to work together on a living arrangement that is acceptable to us both. More and more, I feel that to be an unlikely, but not impossible accomplishment. It would require a commitment from both of us to "do better" in creating a living environment that is healthy and productive for us both.


*I think* Andrew is using the session as a way to end things. Whether it's in the actual session, or afterwards when they talk about the session and see how things are not going to work due to all of the effort needed in the relationship and to create a safe/healthy living environment.

In my first marriage, I blindly thought we'd be together forever no matter what. I've since realized that relationships are work. It's not always hard work, but there is work involved to maintain it and stay on track. Not just within the relationship realm, but also in the household and daily activities. From what Andrew has posted, I don't see continual effort put in by S. I see Andrew running around trying to maintain the household he once had while 3 additional people are living in his home, and not contributing to tidying. There are several other areas of concern, but no need to continue to re-hash them out.

I can see a lot of myself in Andrew when it comes to relationships. I stayed with my ex for far longer than necessary. I gave it my all and looking back, there's nothing more I could have done. We all have to live with the choices we've made.

-dream

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,401
Likes: 111
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,401
Likes: 111
Originally Posted by LH19
Dawn,

Do you see the irony in your posts? You start off by saying that people don’t inherently change but you expect Andy P to change. He came to the board with NGS and he still has NGS. Nothing’s changed and nothing likely will because change is hard. Everyone’s posts to him is a waste of time.


I don't think I said anywhere that I expect Andrew to change. Did I agree with Don that he should man up and end it? Yes I did. Do I think he actually will? Probably not. Andrew has to decide what is right for Andrew and we can all give advice until we are blue in the face, but if it doesn't work for him, then he isn't going to use it, just like everyone else on this board does (or doesn't, as the case may be). Yes, Andrew is a nice guy and that is NOT a bad thing. Andrew knows he is a rescuer and a fixer. Those won't likely change because they are who he is inherently. My hope in the posts I make are that something I say will at least get Andrew to think about things, so that is why I post. Maybe that will happen and maybe it won't. That is up to him because ultimately, he has to live with the decisions he makes.


Me 52, H53
Bomb drop 9/29/2014
Divorce from XH final 12/17/2014
Marriage #2 12/31/2019
5 adult (step)daughters (3 from XH's first marriage, 2 from current H's previous relationships)
6 grandkids
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,913
Likes: 316
K
kml Offline
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,913
Likes: 316
People CAN change but they seldom DO change. Most of us here are proof that a crisis like a WAS CAN lead to significant personal change IF you are willing to look at yourself. Hoarding is a mental illness that is difficult to treat.

As for NGS, I agree with Dawn - being a nice guy is not a bad thing. Having poor boundaries and letting people walk over you is a different thing. But wanting to do the right thing, and caring for others, is not a bad thing.

(Side not - not to be political, but heard some people being interviewed about their choices yesterday, and one guy said - proudly - that he voted solely on who he thought would lower his taxes. And I thought that was one of the most despicable things I had ever heard - no care for others whatsoever, just pure unashamed self interest).

Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,401
Likes: 111
D
Member
Offline
Member
D
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,401
Likes: 111
Originally Posted by dream
Originally Posted by Dawn70
I'm wondering why the push to attend counseling with S. You have already decided this thing isn't right for you, but now you seem to be back-pedaling to working on it. Which is fine, if that is the choice you are making, but is counseling really going to change anything?

I'm confused by this Dawn. Because Andrew said this about his couples counseling session-
Originally Posted by AndrewP
Setting aside a "good" outcome, the ideal outcome would be for the counselor to work with us on how to end things in a respectful, compassionate, but definitive fashion. It saddens me to think that.

A good outcome would be to provide me / us with the tools to be able to work together on a living arrangement that is acceptable to us both. More and more, I feel that to be an unlikely, but not impossible accomplishment. It would require a commitment from both of us to "do better" in creating a living environment that is healthy and productive for us both.


*I think* Andrew is using the session as a way to end things. Whether it's in the actual session, or afterwards when they talk about the session and see how things are not going to work due to all of the effort needed in the relationship and to create a safe/healthy living environment.

In my first marriage, I blindly thought we'd be together forever no matter what. I've since realized that relationships are work. It's not always hard work, but there is work involved to maintain it and stay on track. Not just within the relationship realm, but also in the household and daily activities. From what Andrew has posted, I don't see continual effort put in by S. I see Andrew running around trying to maintain the household he once had while 3 additional people are living in his home, and not contributing to tidying. There are several other areas of concern, but no need to continue to re-hash them out.

I can see a lot of myself in Andrew when it comes to relationships. I stayed with my ex for far longer than necessary. I gave it my all and looking back, there's nothing more I could have done. We all have to live with the choices we've made.

-dream


Maybe we are just interpreting differently, dream. I don't know. I stand by what I said, but even in the example you gave of what Andrew said, he seems to be saying both things. He first says the good outcome of counseling would be working with them to end things in a respectful way. The very next paragraph says it would provide them tools to be able to work together on a living arrangement that is acceptable for both. Maybe he was talking about moving apart from each other in that, but that wasn't how I interpreted it, which prompted my comments about back pedaling, because I interpreted his comments as either wanting the counselor help them separate or help them resolve issues and stay together. Again, as I said to LH, everyone has their own opinions and Andrew will do what is right for him. I merely offered my own opinion, as we all do when we post to others, and he can take what I said or he can leave it...that is his decision to make and whatever he decides he has to live with the outcome. I don't happen to think that counseling with S is going to do anything, but I'm clearly in the minority and that is ok. Andrew obviously thinks it will help and that is the important part. What I think really doesn't make one d@mn bit of difference to anyone.

And, to kml's point about people changing. That is what I was getting at but maybe didn't say it well. I do think people have the ability to change. I just think it is rare that they actually DO change. By in large, people do not change who they are inherently without some big push and a lot of hard work and most people just don't put in that sort of effort.


Me 52, H53
Bomb drop 9/29/2014
Divorce from XH final 12/17/2014
Marriage #2 12/31/2019
5 adult (step)daughters (3 from XH's first marriage, 2 from current H's previous relationships)
6 grandkids
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 9,227
Likes: 309
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 9,227
Likes: 309
Ok ladies so you know I meant it tongue and cheek. Also my point was Nice Guy Syndrome is in DB 101. You doing something nice for someone and don’t get the response you want and then you get mad about it. That’s the point I’m trying to make. Andrew has been on here for 4 years and ultimately he has learned nothing. Hence he won’t change and quite frankly doesn’t have to but keeps running into Einstein’s definition on insanity.

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 9,227
Likes: 309
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 9,227
Likes: 309
K we are saying the same thing. NGS is trying to please someone and when they don’t get what they are looking for in return they get angry and become resentful and P/A because they don’t have boundaries.

Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,826
Likes: 156
G
Member
Offline
Member
G
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,826
Likes: 156
If Andrew one day said “ I really want to work towards having boundaries and being able to enforce them. The current status is not working well for me”

And then S said “ my hoarding and laziness is becoming a really big problem problem in my life and for my relationships, I really want to work towards changing that “

Maybe then Things could work

What are the odds of the stars aligning? Ehhhh

Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 6,119
Likes: 408
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 6,119
Likes: 408
Originally Posted by LH19
Ok ladies so you know I meant it tongue and cheek. Also my point was Nice Guy Syndrome is in DB 101. You doing something nice for someone and don’t get the response you want and then you get mad about it. That’s the point I’m trying to make. Andrew has been on here for 4 years and ultimately he has learned nothing. Hence he won’t change and quite frankly doesn’t have to but keeps running into Einstein’s definition on insanity.

yeah, may have been tongue in cheek but i cannot deny that at times i've felt that way.

i've seen people grow exponentially and change the most outrageous behaviors. I have also seen people change, turning from the light and love in their loves to embrace a whole lot of ugliness. really it's about motivation, imho


M 20+ T25+
S ~15.5 (BD)
BD 4/6/15
D 12/23/16

"Someone I loved once gave me
A box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand,
That this too, was a gift."
~ Mary Oliver
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 4,227
Likes: 63
A
AndrewP Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
A
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 4,227
Likes: 63
Originally Posted by dream
*I think* Andrew is using the session as a way to end things. Whether it's in the actual session, or afterwards when they talk about the session and see how things are not going to work due to all of the effort needed in the relationship and to create a safe/healthy living environment.

In my first marriage, I blindly thought we'd be together forever no matter what. I've since realized that relationships are work. It's not always hard work, but there is work involved to maintain it and stay on track. Not just within the relationship realm, but also in the household and daily activities. From what Andrew has posted, I don't see continual effort put in by S. I see Andrew running around trying to maintain the household he once had while 3 additional people are living in his home, and not contributing to tidying. There are several other areas of concern, but no need to continue to re-hash them out.

I can see a lot of myself in Andrew when it comes to relationships. I stayed with my ex for far longer than necessary. I gave it my all and looking back, there's nothing more I could have done. We all have to live with the choices we've made.

-dream
Sheesh! I go and do some some work and then there's another 4 pages here? Do none of you have lives either? laugh crazy And you've broken the DB site in the process too!

dream - you are right as you so often are. I would not be honest to myself if I just pulled the chute on this without trying everything reasonably possible to make it work. I'm just not selfish enough to look myself in the mirror if I did that unilaterally. Like when I finally gave up on my marriage, I was able to look at myself honestly and know that I had done everything possible to do the impossible and that I had no regrets of paths not taken.

If this was still just dating - which is where it should have been - then ending things is much more guilt-free. But I willingly allowed myself to be pushed into a timeline that I have been uncomfortable with.

S knows she has mental health issues. Some of them at least the ADD are well diagnosed and there must be 4 bookshelves of books on the subject which she also reads to the kids. There are also piles of relationship books here too. Do she or her counselor recognize that some of these can be destructive to her relationship? Dunno. One of the reasons why I am in favour of seeing this particular counselor is that all that background work of understanding S has we can presume been done already and we can focus on the relationship part.

I also know that I have my own issues which are firmly rooted. Just like my father, I give people the benefit of the doubt, undoubtedly more than I should. He was a kind man who was in the end taken advantage of by numerous unscrupulous people.

I'm not overly optimistic though. S has been through multiple failed relationships and I know that the one with her former partner (she's had others since) had core issues around finances, housekeeping and communication as well. It didn't help that at least from my point of view that neither S nor the kids had a lot of respect for the guy. She recognizes that she moved too fast then and here she is repeating the same pattern again. No amount of reading books will make a person change. As has been stated, she has to want to change for her own reasons and then implement those changes even if difficult. I don't know if she can do that. Again - bad comparison to my ex who was also avoidant of anything difficult or where she could be interpreted as being wrong.

In other news I had a nice visit with my son, rubbed some cat bellies that I've been missing. When I got home, I went and scrubbed the floors in both bathrooms and the laundry room. There was quite a stink from the prior cat fights in the laundry room so hopefully this will help. It's nice to see the floors gleam again. I think the last time I was able to scrub them had to have been summer of 2019. Heck, it was nice to see the floor laugh I did have to put back in a fair amount of stuff into the laundry room that I had to move.


On BD
H52, W50
T27, M26
S21, D23
BD-9-Mar-16
D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18
I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good.
But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,913
Likes: 316
K
kml Offline
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,913
Likes: 316
Quote
I would not be honest to myself if I just pulled the chute on this without trying everything reasonably possible to make it work


Andrew - this is NOT a marriage. While it's appropriate to "try everything to make it work" once you've made that commitment in marriage, it is NOT appropriate to apply that to dating situations (yes, even dating situations where you've been prodded into proposing and cohabiting too soon). Dating and engagement are periods to DISCOVER more about the other person and whether you are truly compatible. It's a time to start to see and investigate the red flags.

Would you advise an engaged person whose fiancee cheated on them to go through with the wedding and work on making the relationship work, or would you advise them that it's good they found out before the wedding that they are a cheater and to get the heck out? I'd say most people would chose the latter.

You've found out during this time of cohabiting that S is very different from the image you had of her in your mind, and that her hoarding problem is not something you can/want to live with.

I think what G said is key:"And then S said “ my hoarding and laziness is becoming a really big problem problem in my life and for my relationships, I really want to work towards changing that “"

If she's not capable of saying that and following through on that (which it certainly sounds very UNLIKELY) then I really don't see that it makes any sense to keep trying to make this work.

Page 8 of 11 1 2 6 7 8 9 10 11

Moderated by  Cadet, DnJ, job, Michele Weiner-Davis 

Link Copied to Clipboard