Wow, I’m continuing to read the R2C quotes thread, and I’m more and more convinced that this is an attraction issue at the core of my marriage, pure and simple.
My wife isn’t attracted to me because she doesn’t respect me, and it’s pure NGS at work. I never looked for that because it was an eglitarian relationship - I’ve always been the creative type, reasonably good looking, and charming. I never bought into the man-in-charge, woman-submissive dynamic - but now I’m realizing that’s because I was raised by a strong masculine-ish feminist and a weak, anxiety-ridden father. But my wife is from a strongly patriarchal Mormon background -she’s a traditional girl, and now I’m seeing (16 YEARS LATER!) that she wants a strong man. It was never in my wheelhouse because I’m a passionate, driven man, but not a STRONG man in that sense.
My wife lost attraction for me.
This quote sums it up, from robx in R2C’s thread:
Quote
this has to do with sexual polarity being switched between the two of you, her being more masculine and you being more feminine, this has to do with her being abusive and no one standing up to her: not you, her family, your family, no one, everyone pretty much gets beat up by her because everyone lets her.
The sexual polarity is flipped. I just need to figure out how to flip it BACK.
Some more revelations, I went out yesterday to a shop to pursue some GAL hobbies. First time in a small store since Covid, so that may have had something to do with it.
But I had near crippling anxiety the whole time. This is part of me airing my dirty laundry and owning it, but I have a LOT of social anxiety to overcome. I’m disgusted with myself, but I need to own it and move forward.
MWD talks about doing more of what works and less of what doesn't. Most of what works is counter-intuitive. You nailed it on the head when you reflected back on how each of you were raised. Our belief systems get in the way of the changes we need to make in our behavior. When we realize this, it makes it so much easier to make the required changes.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
Hoch, I honestly don't think you being creative, charming man has ANYTHING to do with strength and confidence. I work in the entertainment business so I see creative men all the time. It's about how you carry yourself, what you believe about yourself, how you show others you want to be treated, and so on and so on.
I think a good place to start is not to try and get your wife to see your value... but for YOU to see it. Honestly - that's the only way it will stick for good is if you see yourself as valuable. You have done a H3ll of a job with everything you go going on. Special Needs kids requires a level of love and strength that not all humans possess. I hope you can see it that. ((Hoch)). Alot of us on the board do!
As for your anxiety - I too have it. I work through it in IC, but I also listen to books and am starting to journal about it. It's not thing to be ashamed of. I'm no therapist but I am being told that the more I allow space for the emotions I am truly feeling - the more my anxiety will lessen.... because its an effect of feeling great fear, anger, etc.
Be kind to yourself. I don't think it's fair for any spouse to find their spouse less "attractive" because of a disorder. But perhaps that's just my personal boundary...
M(f): 40 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
I will definitely be exploring my social anxiety in my IC. So far it simply hadn’t been on my radar, since I was the more outgoing between my wife and I. But now that I’m focusing on it I’m seeing it’s a big problem that I want to overcome for me.
Valeska19 -
Thank you again for the kind words. I feel you’re right, being charming and creative isn’t at all incompatible with being strong. I should clarify, what I’m starting to think happened is that while I’m creative and passionate, since being raised by a strong feminist and a weak father (and I’m now remembering that my mother would berate my father and myself for being “male” or “macho”, while praising things like cooperation and egalitarianism - not bad things in themselves, mind), I’m seeing that the dynamic between my wife and I had two sides.
We’ve been in crisis in these past 5 years. In that time, I’ve grown increasingly stressed out trying to manage it all, while my wife has crumpled in on herself and contributed less and less to an equal partnership. From my perspective, I’ve grown angrier and angrier, crying out, “where is my partner??” and feeling the complete lack of equal energy to steer the ship. I’m starting to understand now that, in this great crisis we’ve experienced, what she wanted was a CAPTAIN to say, “I’ve got this, we will be ok, I’m steering the ship.”
Same experience, two different stories. The “I’m the captain, I’m in charge” role never occurred to me because I thought it was patriarchal sexism - but that’s how I was RAISED to think. But from her perspective it must seem I dropped the ball.
I’ve been watching a lot of Fearless Man on YouTube which talks to this dynamic, the sexual polarity, and how the man creates a “safe container” for the woman to be feminine. While I do not condone the behavior, I can definitely see how my wife’s anger and out of control reactionism are expressions of her masculine side that have come out since pregnancy. Right or wrong, ethical or unethical, it means those masculine energies were missing from the house and that’s why they showed up. I’m starting to change that by changing the balance of energies, for me.
One thing I find strange, and maybe someone can speak to this. I definitely have shifted my energy to more masculine, grounded, in charge. I no longer put up with her back talk, and I don’t put up with tantrums in the kids. They are definitely starting to respect me. My wife’s energy toward me has softened, become more feminine and playful, and she is way more open in conversation. HOWEVER - she has taken off and won’t wear her ring, and has started sleeping downstairs occasionally.
My intuition - which I am learning to foster - says she’s opening up and is scared of it, so is leaning in with her energy but doing small things to distance. How do people who know these sitches read that? I’m not interested in picking apart every minute detail, but the mixed messaging is confusing.
One thing I find strange, and maybe someone can speak to this. I definitely have shifted my energy to more masculine, grounded, in charge.
I would suggest to keep doing this.
Oh, I fully intend to. It’s having great benefits not just for myself but for the relationship. She has definitely stopped kicking up fights. I don’t know why it took me so long to get here, but it doesn’t matter. I’m finally starting to feel in charge of my own life.
So I’m feeling much better and more confident. I’m still in this limbo, however. Married but not, no physical contact, but not saying I’m we’re separated. Just... existing.
I’ve found myself imagining scenarios where I tell her I don’t want to be in a marriage with no intimacy anymore, that we should plan to divorce if she doesn’t intend to work on herself and make the marriage better.
I don’t know if that’s a good idea, or if I’m just getting antsy. I also don’t know yet if I’d have the confidence to really say that and mean it.
I want this to work out. I still have hope. I know patience is a virtue... I’m reading those passages over and over - be patient, patient, patient, and hopeful.
So I’m feeling much better and more confident. I’m still in this limbo, however. Married but not, no physical contact, but not saying I’m we’re separated. Just... existing.
I’ve found myself imagining scenarios where I tell her I don’t want to be in a marriage with no intimacy anymore, that we should plan to divorce if she doesn’t intend to work on herself and make the marriage better.
I don’t know if that’s a good idea, or if I’m just getting antsy. I also don’t know yet if I’d have the confidence to really say that and mean it.
I want this to work out. I still have hope. I know patience is a virtue... I’m reading those passages over and over - be patient, patient, patient, and hopeful.
Take some time off thinking about it and get busy with your GAL. I know it's hard but keep trying. Don't make rash decision based on your emotions now because usually it won't do you any good. Be in the moment, take it a minute at a time.
I'm in the same sitch as you. Focus on you and not the marriage for now. You have plenty of time for that later when you are more detached and calm.
M(36), W(36), D(6), D(4) M-7, T-8 Bomb Drop - Nov 28, 2019 W requested separation - Sep 30, 2020
So I’m feeling much better and more confident. I’m still in this limbo, however. Married but not, no physical contact, but not saying I’m we’re separated. Just... existing.
I’ve found myself imagining scenarios where I tell her I don’t want to be in a marriage with no intimacy anymore, that we should plan to divorce if she doesn’t intend to work on herself and make the marriage better.
I don’t know if that’s a good idea, or if I’m just getting antsy. I also don’t know yet if I’d have the confidence to really say that and mean it.
I want this to work out. I still have hope. I know patience is a virtue... I’m reading those passages over and over - be patient, patient, patient, and hopeful.
Stop talking. Act. If you don't want to be in a marriage with no intimacy, go file for divorce. LBSs talk too much and act too little.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
So I’m feeling much better and more confident. I’m still in this limbo, however. Married but not, no physical contact, but not saying I’m we’re separated. Just... existing.
I’ve found myself imagining scenarios where I tell her I don’t want to be in a marriage with no intimacy anymore, that we should plan to divorce if she doesn’t intend to work on herself and make the marriage better.
I don’t know if that’s a good idea, or if I’m just getting antsy. I also don’t know yet if I’d have the confidence to really say that and mean it.
I want this to work out. I still have hope. I know patience is a virtue... I’m reading those passages over and over - be patient, patient, patient, and hopeful.
Stop talking. Act. If you don't want to be in a marriage with no intimacy, go file for divorce. LBSs talk too much and act too little.
I am going to disagree with Steve here.
I believe your W is not in an affair then I would communicate to her that this arrangement is not working for you. You would like to work on the marriage with her but if she’s not interested that you are going to pursue a divorce, heal and then eventually pursue another relationship in the future.
The thing is Hoch you have to be prepared to walk and never look back if she doesn’t agree to your terms.
Are you prepared to do that and be ok with either answer?
So I’m feeling much better and more confident. I’m still in this limbo, however. Married but not, no physical contact, but not saying I’m we’re separated. Just... existing.
I’ve found myself imagining scenarios where I tell her I don’t want to be in a marriage with no intimacy anymore, that we should plan to divorce if she doesn’t intend to work on herself and make the marriage better.
I don’t know if that’s a good idea, or if I’m just getting antsy. I also don’t know yet if I’d have the confidence to really say that and mean it.
I want this to work out. I still have hope. I know patience is a virtue... I’m reading those passages over and over - be patient, patient, patient, and hopeful.
Stop talking. Act. If you don't want to be in a marriage with no intimacy, go file for divorce. LBSs talk too much and act too little.
I am going to disagree with Steve here.
I believe your W is not in an affair then I would communicate to her that this arrangement is not working for you. You would like to work on the marriage with her but if she’s not interested that you are going to pursue a divorce, heal and then eventually pursue another relationship in the future.
The thing is Hoch you have to be prepared to walk and never look back if she doesn’t agree to your terms.
Are you prepared to do that and be ok with either answer?
I would agree.....except, this isn't the first time Hoch has expressed this.
Hoch, none of us advocate LBSs sit and wait around for the WAS to come around forever. And if anyone advocates that, then I would question their wisdom.
So your choices are pretty clear. Continue to wait to see if she comes around (if you do this I would choose a dropdead deadline, not one you communicate to her but one you have for yourself "if by this date she isn't fully committed to the MR, then I go file for D"), or you end things yourself.
I do not see talking about it again netting anything positive. LBSs think they can talk their way out of what they've acted their way into. Your sitch took a long time to develop over time until BD finally occurred, a conversation with her about how it isn't working for you (she knows that already) isn't going to snap her out of it.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Take some time off thinking about it and get busy with your GAL.
This is good advice. You’re overthinking it by playing out scenarios in your head. This will rip you apart over time.
You need to get a life and stop trying to think or plan your way out of it.
When I went through mine, my psych told me the absolute best thing you can do is lots of physical exercise. I was slow to do this, but once I did, those thought patterns of what if starting settling down. I didn’t ruminate all day about what I’d say if she said X or Y.
Go and do a vigorous walk for 1.5 hours a day, every day, for a month. This will help you more than trying to think or plan or threaten your way out of your current situation.
So I’m feeling much better and more confident. I’m still in this limbo, however. Married but not, no physical contact, but not saying I’m we’re separated. Just... existing.
I’ve found myself imagining scenarios where I tell her I don’t want to be in a marriage with no intimacy anymore, that we should plan to divorce if she doesn’t intend to work on herself and make the marriage better.
I don’t know if that’s a good idea, or if I’m just getting antsy. I also don’t know yet if I’d have the confidence to really say that and mean it.
I want this to work out. I still have hope. I know patience is a virtue... I’m reading those passages over and over - be patient, patient, patient, and hopeful.
Stop talking. Act. If you don't want to be in a marriage with no intimacy, go file for divorce. LBSs talk too much and act too little.
I am going to disagree with Steve here.
I believe your W is not in an affair then I would communicate to her that this arrangement is not working for you. You would like to work on the marriage with her but if she’s not interested that you are going to pursue a divorce, heal and then eventually pursue another relationship in the future.
The thing is Hoch you have to be prepared to walk and never look back if she doesn’t agree to your terms.
Are you prepared to do that and be ok with either answer?
I would agree.....except, this isn't the first time Hoch has expressed this.
Hoch, none of us advocate LBSs sit and wait around for the WAS to come around forever. And if anyone advocates that, then I would question their wisdom.
So your choices are pretty clear. Continue to wait to see if she comes around (if you do this I would choose a dropdead deadline, not one you communicate to her but one you have for yourself "if by this date she isn't fully committed to the MR, then I go file for D"), or you end things yourself.
I do not see talking about it again netting anything positive. LBSs think they can talk their way out of what they've acted their way into. Your sitch took a long time to develop over time until BD finally occurred, a conversation with her about how it isn't working for you (she knows that already) isn't going to snap her out of it.
It’s not about trying to talk her out of it. It’s about letting her know that this isn’t working for him anymore. Steve it’s kinda like the 3rd time you caught your W in inappropriate behaviors with men online. You probably should have just filed at that point. You didn’t. You told her you are either in or you’re out. If she said screw you Steve I’m doing what I want. I’m guessing you would have filed?? This is Hoch’s you’re in or you’re out speech.
Hoch, went back and read your entire threads. And I see you still struggling now with what you struggled with way back at the beginning:
"She is being nice! She wants to stay!" "Oh no, she is being mean and/or ignoring me, she is going to D!"
NGS. Over attachment. It runs the entire gamut.
First, it tells me that you are doing GAL very poorly. All of this interaction, temp-checking, basing your MR status on her current behavior, and believing a word she says, shows that you are still way overly attached. Your emotions are a ball attached to a paddle by a rubberband....and she is the paddle. Until you detach from that rubberband you will continue to let her bounce you up and down.
I told another poster this story just the other day. But the two days after BD for me in 2017, my W was the nicest, most loving and affectionate she'd been in years. Of course this caused me to dive head first into an R talk. Guess what, despite how nice, loving and affectionate she'd been, verbally she was still intent on her plan to get a job, get an apartment and to get a D. This is why you cannot try to measure the state of your MR on day-to-day interactions. These things are like the stock market. Day-to-day fluctuation are meaningless. Trend over time is the key.
Regarding that, I saw one post where you suggested that one bad day had undone 5 months of "progress". That isn't even logical! This shows how tightly affixed to that rubberband you are.
Hoch, trust the process. Keep on DBing. Certainly have an end date in mind where you will no longer wait. Or pull the plug and move on with your life.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
It’s not about trying to talk her out of it. It’s about letting her know that this isn’t working for him anymore. Steve it’s kinda like the 3rd time you caught your W in inappropriate behaviors with men online. You probably should have just filed at that point. You didn’t. You told her you are either in or you’re out. If she said screw you Steve I’m doing what I want. I’m guessing you would have filed?? This is Hoch’s you’re in or you’re out speech.
Apples and oranges.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
We’ve been in crisis in these past 5 years. In that time, I’ve grown increasingly stressed out trying to manage it all, while my wife has crumpled in on herself and contributed less and less to an equal partnership. From my perspective, I’ve grown angrier and angrier, crying out, “where is my partner??” and feeling the complete lack of equal energy to steer the ship. I’m starting to understand now that, in this great crisis we’ve experienced, what she wanted was a CAPTAIN to say, “I’ve got this, we will be ok, I’m steering the ship.”
Same experience, two different stories. The “I’m the captain, I’m in charge” role never occurred to me because I thought it was patriarchal sexism - but that’s how I was RAISED to think. But from her perspective it must seem I dropped the ball.
Hoch - I don't usually speak too much to the male/female dynamic as my relationships are same-sex based so I understand there are differences. That being said... I totally disagree with above. It seems from what you told us is that in alot of ways you were trying to be the captain. You are the breadwinner. You watch the kids a ton. Give your w lots of breaks, etc. If you want to keep to the ship analogy - no captain runs a ship alone. Actually - the first mate is crucial to the ships successful voyage. Could you be strong and lead her down a path - sure... but to not expect equal partnership.. um.. you are married. That's a reasonable expectation.
I think were things went sour - its when you started placing responsibility on your w that wasn't hers to bear. Or times when you were being NGS with expectations. It is hard for resentment to make a home in your heart when you are woke to the idea of completely taking care of yourself. When you realize you are only in control of you and therefore need to always ask "What does Hoch need" and then to make it happen. Or when you set boundaries and don't "rescue" your wife because you don't have the emotional capacity to do so.
So for me - you talking about being the Captain is just a different way of being the fixer and Hoch - you've been a fixer way too long.
Originally Posted by Hoch
I’ve been watching a lot of Fearless Man on YouTube which talks to this dynamic, the sexual polarity, and how the man creates a “safe container” for the woman to be feminine. While I do not condone the behavior, I can definitely see how my wife’s anger and out of control reactionism are expressions of her masculine side that have come out since pregnancy. Right or wrong, ethical or unethical, it means those masculine energies were missing from the house and that’s why they showed up. I’m starting to change that by changing the balance of energies, for me.
I really just don't agree with this. All People are on a spectrum. I'm personally a masculine communicator - but I also am very feminine. I've spoken in great length with my therapist about this as often women are shamed for having masculine tendencies. So tread this thought lightly.... respect/leading a household/being strong - these are integrity traits NOT gender ones.
Originally Posted by Hoch
One thing I find strange, and maybe someone can speak to this. I definitely have shifted my energy to more masculine, grounded, in charge. I no longer put up with her back talk, and I don’t put up with tantrums in the kids. They are definitely starting to respect me. My wife’s energy toward me has softened, become more feminine and playful, and she is way more open in conversation. HOWEVER - she has taken off and won’t wear her ring, and has started sleeping downstairs occasionally.
Just to continue beating my dead horse... again... not masculine traits! They are traits of someone with self esteem, integrity, boundaries, etc.
Originally Posted by Hoch
My intuition - which I am learning to foster - says she’s opening up and is scared of it, so is leaning in with her energy but doing small things to distance. How do people who know these sitches read that? I’m not interested in picking apart every minute detail, but the mixed messaging is confusing.
You are changing the dance of your relationship. Stop focusing on how your wife responds. It's gonna be cooky for a bit. She could be nice one minute/distant the next. It's all part of the process when the pattern is being changed...
.... which brings me to my final piece. Becareful about making decisions around the high you are feeling. Setting boundaries. Feeling confident is great. I mean who doesn't love it when they work hard at the gym all week and step on that scale and see they have lost 5 lbs.
But there are going to be days where you don't lose any weight. H3ll - you might even gain back a few lbs. That's what this process is.
There hasn't been enough time for these changes to settle in. Not for you. Not for her. Keep doing the work. Be patient with the process.
M(f): 40 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
I very much appreciate the advice and perspectives here.
I’m listening to my intuition, and it is also telling me to give these changes more time. I’m not ready to pull the plug and mean it yet. If that time comes, I will know. I have a rough timeline in my head that I am going to put on a shelf for now.
In the moment I am recommitting to personal growth, honesty, and getting rid of the NGS. I’ve spoken to my therapist about my two revelations - that while I was always the “social” and “honest” one in the relationship, I’m now realizing that my NGS actually meant I was socially-anxious and DIShonest. He will be giving me tools to work on both.
One thing that I want to ask the group here: emotional transparency and honesty are new to me. Such as the other day, when my wife came home and I was tempted to say everything had been fine with the kids, but I was instead open and honest and said “I was going to lie but this has been a nightmare.” The honesty felt good and was received well.
So about that honesty - if I’m pursuing full transparency, and my wife asks me if something’s wrong, wouldn’t an open and honest person say “I’m having a really hard time because our marriage and relationship are so distant right now” ?
Not blaming, not opening up a discussion, it would simply be honesty in the moment, and then I would walk away and expect no answer. Wouldn’t that be honest? How honest is “honest?” It sure seems like “honesty” and “no R talks” are in conflict. I’m curious to see what people say.
I very much appreciate the advice and perspectives here.
I’m listening to my intuition, and it is also telling me to give these changes more time. I’m not ready to pull the plug and mean it yet. If that time comes, I will know. I have a rough timeline in my head that I am going to put on a shelf for now.
In the moment I am recommitting to personal growth, honesty, and getting rid of the NGS. I’ve spoken to my therapist about my two revelations - that while I was always the “social” and “honest” one in the relationship, I’m now realizing that my NGS actually meant I was socially-anxious and DIShonest. He will be giving me tools to work on both.
One thing that I want to ask the group here: emotional transparency and honesty are new to me. Such as the other day, when my wife came home and I was tempted to say everything had been fine with the kids, but I was instead open and honest and said “I was going to lie but this has been a nightmare.” The honesty felt good and was received well.
So about that honesty - if I’m pursuing full transparency, and my wife asks me if something’s wrong, wouldn’t an open and honest person say “I’m having a really hard time because our marriage and relationship are so distant right now” ?
Not blaming, not opening up a discussion, it would simply be honesty in the moment, and then I would walk away and expect no answer. Wouldn’t that be honest? How honest is “honest?” It sure seems like “honesty” and “no R talks” are in conflict. I’m curious to see what people say.
Full transparency is for the WAS, not the LBS. The less you say the better. Did she ask how things were with the kids or did you just volunteer the info? Remember Sandi's rules! Always be DBin!!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
You could also have said "The kids had a hard day".
No one is saying you should pretend you are fine. But you keep it short. You keep it private. You work through your stuff on your own.
If she initiates. "I have stuff on my mind. Thanks for asking".
Also honestly isn't in the form of words. It's in the form of actions. And the first person you need to worry about being honest with.. is yourself. Not your w.
M(f): 40 D'ed: 8/12
Show empathy when there's pain. Show grace when warranted. Kindness in the midst of anger. Faith in the face of fear.
I want to take a step back and applaud what you're up to--a journey of self-discovery and self-improvement.
A random telemarketer calls and says, "How are you today?" 3hrs ago your dog Rover died of cancer, and you got a letter from the IRS stating you owe $10,000 in back taxes + $5,000 in penalties.
"Great!" would be a lie. "Had better", "It's a Monday." "What's up?" are all honest. How much TRANSPARENCY do you OWE a random telemarketer? "My dog died, and the IRS says I owe them $5,000 in penalties by Apr 1st?" Probably not. I suspect many would even be uncomfortable with such an information dump. I think transparency increases in proportion to your relationship. I would share little with an ex, more with an acquaintance, even more with a boss, and the most with a committed partner or family.
I want to caution you about something I've seen from many H's who have NGS. Not all, but many nice-guy H's want to verbally share the new information he has gleaned from the IC, DB Board, various web sites & books. The problem, however, is his W is not receptive at this time. I hear the eagerness in your posts, and there's nothing wrong with feeling encouraged. I just want you to figure out how to change yourself into a better man, without making it a discussion with her. I've seen H's who share with their W how they are working on themselves, to become a better man, etc. You know what it looks like to the W? Men can't let go of the idea they could say something that's really going to impress their W enough to turn things around, or to stop the D. Don't tell her about your revelations or that you are pursuing full transparency. It's not necessary to tell her. Do you get what I'm saying?
Is it your counselor's suggestion you pursue full emotional transparency, in order to save the MR?
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One thing that I want to ask the group here: emotional transparency and honesty are new to me.
Do you have a habit of lying? Has this been an issue in the MR?
Quote
So about that honesty - if I’m pursuing full transparency, and my wife asks me if something’s wrong, wouldn’t an open and honest person say “I’m having a really hard time because our marriage and relationship are so distant right now” ?
Not blaming, not opening up a discussion, it would simply be honesty in the moment, and then I would walk away and expect no answer. Wouldn’t that be honest? How honest is “honest?” It sure seems like “honesty” and “no R talks” are in conflict. I’m curious to see what people say.
If you responded with those words, I think it would lead to a relationship discussion. IMHO, you are wanting an emotional connection with your W, and that's why you are talking about emotional transparency & honesty. This would be great if the two of you were in family therapy together. I'm not saying you should lie to her, but you need to be careful in how you state things. Your W could take this as you blaming her, or she could see you whiney & weak. Although it is an honest statement, are you sure it's the right words at the right time?
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Such as the other day, when my wife came home and I was tempted to say everything had been fine with the kids, but I was instead open and honest and said “I was going to lie but this has been a nightmare.” The honesty felt good and was received well.
Nothing wrong there. No blame is pointing toward her or the relationship. If you had said something about how long she was gone, or indicated this was her fault......then she would have reacted quite differently. I'm not sure why you would ordinarily lie about the kids being no problem. She probably felt relieved to hear she wasn't the only one who has trouble handling them.
I think you just need to work on how to stay balanced with all the new information you are finding. Coming here to discuss it is a good thing.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Once again, thank you all for the kind words and advice. I’m just going to keep saying it.
Before I answer specifics, I wanted to clarify my situation for those who don’t want to read back to page 1.
My wife isn’t asking for a divorce. She’s suggested it twice (in April and June), both times as a projected outcome of the relationship because she’s “committed to never having sex again in her life,” and she “knows I need it in mine - so we will have to get a divorce because I’m not changing my mind.” Both times were in direct response to me saying I wasn’t ok with abusive language about unrelated topics. Both times she has said “I’m not asking for one, it’s just what I want right now.”
Since then, we’ve moved, but there is no talk of separation, divorce, or splitting. She makes plans like we will still be together in 6 mos, a year, two years (stray comments, house stuff). She is very affectionate with the kids, but keeps me at arms length. There have been no relationship discussions, but also no move to become closer or to address the elephant in the room. She brings me food and chats and tells me her problems. But also never says goodnight or good morning, and is intentionally cold most of the time. Roommates.
I’m sure most LBH are confused. I’M confused. Also, I’m not. LBH. I’m still here, she’s still here, there’s no separation. But we are also not talking about the thing that is sitting right here. Does she want to stay or go? Does she want a permanently cold marriage?
That more than anything is what’s pushing me, making me want to say, not “I love you why are acting like this,” but “what even is this thing that’s going on? Are you staying or going? This is very weird and not mentioning it is making it weirder.”
Maybe this is textbook pursuing. If so, hit me with the hose or the spray bottle. I can only speak from what’s on my mind, it just seems so incredibly grey and blurry. That’s where I get confused, a lot of people say “the marriage is dead at BD.” But... WAS I BD’d? Or was it a flyby? Was that a false alarm?
It has also been said that “after BD” one should withdraw as much emotional support as possible to keep the WAW from becoming complacent. But in our situation, I feel like withdrawing support would be devastating, it would be intentionally tanking the ship.
These are just stray thoughts. I’m still pursuing my GAL activities. Will update more soon.
My wife isn’t asking for a divorce. She’s suggested it twice (in April and June), both times as a projected outcome of the relationship because she’s “committed to never having sex again in her life,” and she “knows I need it in mine - so we will have to get a divorce because I’m not changing my mind.”
She wants a divorce, but wants the responsibility of it to be yours. Same old script.
I may be asking boneheaded, “still not getting it” questions above.
Part of my NGS and perfectionism (both recovering BTW) is my tendency to think, re-think, and re-re-think about what’s been said/typed and my own responses. I’m learning that being a NGS is all about picking apart conversation for nuances about how to respond more “correctly.” It’s exhausting. Communication should be clearer than that.
As part of my recovery I’m going to start letting myself be that dunce more often. If I don’t get something, I’m going to be ok looking stupid and admitting I’m not getting it. This in itself is new to me.
Hoch, I have been following you since you first posted but I am not sure I have ever written here. But I am compelled to do so now because I think you have done such an immense amount of self-discovery work in the past four months and I am an impressed outsider.
The masculine/feminine dynamic you have uncovered in your M is fascinating. But as Valeska points out, it may be shortsighted to classify it into distinct 'traits' or roles between the male and female. Have you ever explored Carl Jung's theory on anima/animus archetypes? Your W and yourself might have developed an animus and anima imbalance (though it is always a spectrum). I think you would find it interesting in your situation if you were to explore that famine/masculine dynamic through this slightly different psychoanalytical lens.
No matter if you have been DB'd or not, your M is at an inflection point and you are right to explore everything in the process of discovering whether or not what you have is salvageable.
This board is a safe place to try on new hats. Don't overthink your words or how people in this space will react to them. Keep being authentic. It will help you on your journey to deeper self-discovery (ie 'oh wow, lots of people said the same thing, I must be on the wrong or right path here').
And from my (new-ish) to DB perspective, I think you are doing a lot of the right things. Trying new tactics, owning what works and discarding what doesn't. At the end of the day, you will be a better person for all this, no matter what the outcome.
I very much appreciate your viewpoint. It’s so hard to measure if what I’m doing is working (or any of us really), because the target keeps moving. Some days I can’t tell if I’m having a negative effect, or if her moods are just all over the place for other reasons. Probably both.
Thank you for the kind words on self-improvement. I’m definitely heading in that direction, and being direct and honest and willing to look stupid are all new territory for me. “Be right, do right, act right” is a script that has (not) served me for years.
I’m trying to digest and assimilate much of the good feedback here with a couple of paradigms: my situation is different just like everyone else’s, and some (many) if these rules are hard and fast.
However, my intuition is telling me there’s a mismatch somewhere along the line. One, she’s not a walk away wife. Two, she’s not a wayward wife. There is no OM, and really, there is no Other Life. She’s not driving away from me into the arms of another man, or into the promise of a better life. If anything, she’s driving away from me into the mouth of the abyss.
I really am wondering if I was actually BD’d. (Maybe I was, maybe I’m dumb, both are ok. New day, new me :)). It’s not like she (apparently) has fantasies about disappearing into a better life. It really feels to me like her threat of divorce was akin to saying I’LL BLOW US UP IF YOU MAKE ME FUNCTION.
She has stopped caring about... anything really, except her obsessive focus on a side project that has never made money. We are already $1k in the red every month, and just yesterday I discovered she’s blowing 100’s of $ on phone games. There is no plan B, she’s not building a better life or escaping into fantasy. Or another man’s arms.
That’s why I’m really concerned about the “withdraw emotional support, your old marriage is dead, make her miss you” tactic. I honestly, truly think that will not work. The DR book even has a chapter about the depressed spouse, and it states that (paraphrasing) a depressed WAW is a special situation requiring different tactics, many of which “go beyond the scope of this book.”
Still, I’m DBing, I’m following the rules as closely as possible. I’m GALing. But I feel like I need a specialized plan here. Has anyone on these boards dealt with a. Severely depressed WAW? Is there any further reading I can do on this?
I am interested in the animus/anima dynamic, for certain. I will be researching it.
I don’t immediately have concerns with the masculine/feminine energy terminology, but I can see how it’s confusing, misleading, or outdated. Particularly in cases like your Valeska, where the same energies can exhibit regardless of gender. I think you’re right that they’re more akin to integrity/boundary roles.
Whatever the terminology, my wife was basically the consummate beta all her life, always suppressing her desires for those around her to the point of being impossible to pull an actual opinion out of. Me, a stuck egalitarian Nice Guy, becoming increasingly frustrated over the years, because “im not going to enforce my will, WHERE DO YIU WANT TO GO FOR DINNER for christ sake?” But since childbirth, she’s been an out-of-control, f*ck everyone, f*ck you for trying to help, angry monster, and my reaction has been to become frazzled, depressed, and stressed beyond belief like a triage nurse on their tenth cup of coffee.
Regardless, she went out of control and I was not TAKING control. The right terms will come as I pursue them. I am finding one of the only common threads in my list of “things that work and things that don’t” is that, when I put my foot down and live my life (I’m taking off for a while/my family is coming for dinner, you can be here or leave), the more she settles down in her “it’s everyone else’s fault” rage bubble and starts to resemble a human.
The hardest part for me, honestly? Being that ON all the time. Outwardly, I’m trying to be the one Taking The Lead. Inwardly I’m like... WTF am I doing?
Again - I am speaking from the hip and it’s starting to feel good. Not combing my responses for clarity. Go me.
Anyway, with the lens I’m looking through now, she went bathsh!t nuts (for a variety of reasons, some good, some not), and I was so afraid of Male Controlling (with a Capital MC) that I didn’t stand up and say, “wow, this sh!t is NOT ok, in my home or toward me or my kids. You need to get your house in order.”
This doesn’t shirk my 50% of the MR responsibility (I’m seeing I’ve f*cked up left, right and sideways). But it does hold her to account for hers.
I’m going to stick with animus/anima terminology, I think it’s the most inclusive. Anima in this term being submissive/feminine, animus being dominant/masculine.
Yesterday I did a lot of research on that sexual polarity, which is something I wasn’t very familiar with. All day, I leaned into it hard; I was in my animus the whole day. Not being unkind or rude, but being direct, decisive, and taking action. And surprisingly (unsurprisingly?) she responded. The energy I got from her was one that was very willing to fall in line and be led, at least insofar as how the day was structured and how I intended to go about it. She became more apologetic and agreeable.
Today has been a bit of a different story. Part of my journey is learning to calibrate - I’ve gotten into these states before of being direct and decisive, but like a toddler on a bike I always wobble and fall over before too long. Often it’s because I swing too hard toward decisive and end up cold or dismissive - since decisive is not my natural state, I quickly fall into a caricature, then I get nervous and buckle.
Right now I’m a bundle of nerves and I’ve swung back to fearful for my marriage, as well as deep loneliness. It really is a rollercoaster and I’m trying to figure out how to straighten it out so I have more control.
Ultimately I want to be able to maintain decisiveness without veering into dominance
Today my wife mentioned to me that in assessing our 5 year old, she took a test for adult autism. Of course it’s inconclusive until checked by a professional, but she scored a 7 out of 10 on the Aspergers (now outdated) scale.
She has long suspected that she might have some autism spectrum traits, and I have had my suspicions... but it just hit me like a ton of bricks to hear that she actually placed that high.
The reason this hits me so hard is that I’ve long worried about not only her willingness to return to a semblance of a full, reciprocal relationship, but also her CAPACITY. This just hits me really hard... it gets me right in that little pocket of hope that I keep close by, that she might not ever be able to return to the woman I love. Or perhaps that she never was capable of being that person.
I do know that she loved me deeply and unconditionally for years. We built our life on that. But in my suspicions, I’ve read many accounts of people married to Aspies who say after a major life event (childbirth, etc), a switch was flipped and they never came back. They all say the same thing - even if you think it might get better, dont walk, RUN away from that relationship because they will never love you back the way you need.
I’m holding on to hope so hard here folks. I’m just having a very hard time seeing it right now. The future feels bleak.
Today my wife mentioned to me that in assessing our 5 year old, she took a test for adult autism. Of course it’s inconclusive until checked by a professional, but she scored a 7 out of 10 on the Aspergers (now outdated) scale.
She has long suspected that she might have some autism spectrum traits, and I have had my suspicions... but it just hit me like a ton of bricks to hear that she actually placed that high.
The reason this hits me so hard is that I’ve long worried about not only her willingness to return to a semblance of a full, reciprocal relationship, but also her CAPACITY. This just hits me really hard... it gets me right in that little pocket of hope that I keep close by, that she might not ever be able to return to the woman I love. Or perhaps that she never was capable of being that person.
I do know that she loved me deeply and unconditionally for years. We built our life on that. But in my suspicions, I’ve read many accounts of people married to Aspies who say after a major life event (childbirth, etc), a switch was flipped and they never came back. They all say the same thing - even if you think it might get better, dont walk, RUN away from that relationship because they will never love you back the way you need.
I’m holding on to hope so hard here folks. I’m just having a very hard time seeing it right now. The future feels bleak.
Hoch, let's go back before BD when things were relatively good between you. Now imagine that your W was killed in a car accident.
How would you go on afterward?
LBS gets so hyper-focused on holding on to their spouses that they go into "deep despair" about the prospects of that never happening. The problem with that is that we live in an imperfect world. YOU have a be a whole individual because there is no guarantee that your W will be there after this next minute. So stop obsessing about what you cannot control (whether she has the capacity to reconcile and piece), and start preparing yourself for what comes next no matter what!!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I’ve had a bit of an internal breakthrough recently, I think something clicked and I’m starting to “get” detachment.
At the same time I’ve been learning a lot about what Brian Begin from Fearless Man calls releasing, or letting out stored emotions in the body. It’s very similar to Buddhist practices I’m used to, but releasing is also something that is just starting to “click” for me. I’m realizing how much stored trauma I have in my body, and I’m learning to let it out a bit at a time and make space for whatever is... not trauma. Courage. Hope?
Took the kids for a road trip yesterday to the mountains. Stopped for not one but TWO ice cream cones, hamburgers, and took grandpa along. We hiked up the side of a mountain and threw rocks as far as we could down the side. My kids kicked up dirt clouds and we found cool sticks. Halloween was fun, we stayed in and ate popcorn and wore costumes and watched old cartoons.
Last week, I decided to take time off of work each day to be there for my older son’s school lessons. I figure - let’s say we split up, I’d have them a few days or a week at a time anyway, and I would need to arrange for schooling. So while we’re NOT split up, I might as well make the time NOW. My wife noticed I was being more present and asked, “why are you suddenly getting more involved with the kids?” I didn’t think, I just said “I’m making some changes. There are some things I don’t like about myself and I’ve decided to become a better father.” That ended the discussion on a confused note.
Last night she texted me at midnight (I was asleep, got it this morning) that, to paraphrase: “I sense something major has shifted in you (us). I feel like you’re shielding the kids from me, taking them out places and getting them ice cream, like I’m the bad guy/bad mother for not doing that when I’m out with them. I’m bothered you took them to a mountain without consulting me during Covid.” (Which, I did tell her - but I was being a bit catty about the destination at first and she interpreted that as me, I don’t know, shielding my decisions from her because she’s a bad mom? Anyway, mistakes made on my part, and lesson learned.)
But what I find interesting is the “I sense something has shifted in you/us.” My first instinct is that detaching is finally starting to work. This felt like the first little 1% of her realizing the game has changed and she doesn’t like the loss of control. She also said in her message that “she is up against tons of challenges and just trying to be the best mom she can, even though she’s human and is failing, and she wants me to know she’s trying her best.”
There was a lot of victim hood in that message, a lot of poor me, but what I heard was “something is different, you’re acting different, I’m losing control and I don’t know what to do.”
Analytically, it worries me, makes me feel like I’m pushing her away and this is me somehow cutting ties slowly. As per the DR book though, my gut is taking this a s a good sign that the balance has shifted and she’s unsure of my emotional state.
My wife noticed I was being more present and asked, “why are you suddenly getting more involved with the kids?” I didn’t think, I just said “I’m making some changes. There are some things I don’t like about myself and I’ve decided to become a better father.” That ended the discussion on a confused note.
Perfect.
Quote
Last night she texted me at midnight (I was asleep, got it this morning) that, to paraphrase: “I sense something major has shifted in you (us). I feel like you’re shielding the kids from me, taking them out places and getting them ice cream, like I’m the bad guy/bad mother for not doing that when I’m out with them. I’m bothered you took them to a mountain without consulting me during Covid.”
I see several options. The one that stands out is validating her FEELINGS.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
I’m still trying to learn, I feel like I’m getting it a baby step at a time but I still have a long ways to go. Can you point out what I’m not getting?
I’m pretty happy with my reply. She had texted me but not mentioned anything in person, so I texted her back (medium is the message) even though we’re in the same house. Somehow I felt that if I approached her about her message she’d shut down again.
To paraphrase my reply, “I understand you’re feeling like I’m trying to shield the kids from you. If I were in your shoes I’d be really upset about that. I’m sorry, that must suck. For my motivation, that hadn’t even crossed my mind. I hope you know i would never do that. I’m sorry about being unclear with the destination, I won’t do that in the future. My only motivation is being the best father I can and showing my kids some beautiful places.”
Basically, just what you said. Validate, validate, validate. I didn’t touch on her suggestion that something major had shifted between us, it wasn’t a question and didn’t seem like it needed a response.
As far as the school schedule, I should be able to do that from now on. My work schedule generally allows it.
My first instinct is that detaching is finally starting to work. This felt like the first little 1% of her realizing the game has changed and she doesn’t like the loss of control. She also said in her
I highlighted a few words that a detached person wouldn't be using.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
When you’re detached you are living your best life. If she wants to join you living that life then great if she doesn’t that ok too. You’re not worried if your actions are effecting her. It’s ok that you’re not detached right now it’s a process. You will know when you’re detached.
“I sense something major has shifted in you (us). I feel like you’re shielding the kids from me, taking them out places and getting them ice cream, like I’m the bad guy/bad mother for not doing that when I’m out with them. I’m bothered you took them to a mountain without consulting me during Covid.”
Originally Posted by Hoch
To paraphrase my reply, “I understand you’re feeling like I’m trying to shield the kids from you. If I were in your shoes I’d be really upset about that. I’m sorry, that must suck. For my motivation, that hadn’t even crossed my mind. I hope you know i would never do that. I’m sorry about being unclear with the destination, I won’t do that in the future. My only motivation is being the best father I can and showing my kids some beautiful places.”
I would have kept it shorter.
Here are other responses:
"It must be hard feeling that way. "
"I appreciate you sharing your concerns. I will keep them in mind the next time we go out."
Just remember that women test their men. You want to pass the tests. Most guys don't. Don't be like most guys.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
I think you’re both right, I’m still not understanding detaching. I have a long road to walk but I’m finally feeling upbeat about it .
In reading through the success stories on the site, the term that I think fits is that I am “lovingly distancing” and finally starting to live my own life. I’ve been so full of resentment this whole time and I’m finally letting that go, bit by bit. I’m seeing my wife now as someone who has stumbled, fallen, and has been going through hell. I’m finally getting the “lovingly” part of distancing.
I don’t know if I’m misunderstanding the technique or going backwards, all I know is that I’m feeling freer and more positive, and I actually find myself wishing her well. It’s been a long time since I’ve done that.
Detachment is proceeding. Had another great GAL day with my boys and their grandparents, taking them for long drives and getting ice cream and visiting some local landmarks. It was rainy, but we found a pocket of sunshine and chased it for a good 30 miles - just to put a smile on my boys’ faces. It was a good day .
I’ve been focusing on becoming more aware of my body thru yoga and emotional awareness, seeing where emotions are stored in the body and learning which parts I’ve cut off from myself thru constant stress. Lots of walks, exercise, weightlifting, etc. I’m kicking ass at work, and keeping my home office very clean. It feels good. Started and completed a few house repairs and have more on the list.
As to the advice, the state of my wife is coming into focus but by bit. I found a bottle of bourbon that is alarmingly empty that I didn’t buy, along with a bunch of listerine stashed around the house. Now, this may seem alarmist - it’s one bottle of booze - but there are two problems. One, she has a history of substance abuse - she went nearly suicidal with marijuana around when we first got together, had a drinking and cutting problem in high school, and had a suicidal event three years ago where she took a bunch of my sleep meds and drank a bunch of alcohol and I came home to her unconscious on the floor - with my 1 year old running around. Two, it’s not just the alcohol which concerns me - it’s the sneaking. I know her, this tells me she’s in a dark place and sinking rather than swimming.
It explains why she’s been passing out on the couch for the last month or so.
As mentioned, I know I sound overly-jumpy. She’s a grown woman and it’s a bottle of scotch for gods sake. Well, I don’t care. I know my wife, and this is a bad sign. Each time this has surfaced in our relationship it has only gone to a bad place - to my knowledge it does not tend to right itself.
I would like to proceed carefully, and I could use the advice and wisdom of those on the board. Thanks
Two things. 1st ,I think it is a huge deal. Sneak drinking is a sign of alcoholism, no question. One found bottle of scotch is probably the sign of many never found, so your right to be concerned.
2nd, there is nothing you can do. Alcoholics do not listen to those concerned about them. It takes hitting rock bottom for the alcoholic to finally wake up to their problems.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I don’t think you are overly jumpy. I think you are probably quite accurate in your assessment of the situation. Stashed bottles of Listerine? Obviously that is not about concern over bad breath. People do not stash bottles of mouthwash. They have one bottle that they keep in the bathroom. I think you have a right to be concerned...especially if she is taking your kids places. In terms of what to do about it... IDK exactly. You know your wife so you are the best person to answer that. If it was me though, I would probably collect all of the bottles of Listerine and find a time when you can speak privately. I would show her what you found, tell her that obviously you are concerned and then ask her what is going on...and then see what she says. I don’t think there is a perfect way to deal with this but what you definitely have to do, is protect your children from being supervised and transported by someone who is under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol. And Listerine? That feels desperate to me. Like something only a serious drunk would resort to. That’s pretty worrisome Hoch. You may also want to seek out some advice from experts in this field...a D & A counsellor or an organization that works with families of alcoholics. Whatever you do, don’t ignore this and hope it will resolve on its own. That is highly unlikely. Sorry you are having to deal with this on top of everything else. (((HUGS)))
I measured the bottle last night to be sure, it was just under half full. This morning the bottle was gone, which means she drank it all last night. This does concern me.
So sorry for you Hoch. My heart breaks, hang in there im rooting for you.
T:11 M:10 K: D5, S7 BD: 9/1/20 WW continues to break up and recon with OM. I paid last fees and pushed the D 5/3/2021 Default Dissolution granted 8/5/21. Glad my D was not busted.
I would show her what you found, tell her that obviously you are concerned and then ask her what is going on...and then see what she says.
I like DejaVu's suggestion. Beyond expressing concern, listening/validating, and offering support if she wants it.. you can't control how much she chooses to drink or if she got mad at you for bringing it up. [You can control whether you discuss or report this behavior with family, friends, mental, legal, or law enforcement services. You can control whether you talk to her about it in a curious and supportive, or judgmental way.] I'm sorry you're going through this. Look forward to your update when you're ready!
I asked her about the alcohol. Of course she felt accused and angry I brought I up, but I maintained that i simply wanted to know because I have a responsibility to make sure the children are safe and I saw what could be red flags. Of course she denied alcoholism and said she didn’t drink much/often. Don’t know that I buy that but I was genial and listened.
I was cool and level headed the entire time, and I validated as much as possible, while owning what came up for me. This is the basics of the conversation:
I said the drinking (and copious smoking) concerned me - not because she can’t make her decisions, but because we’ve been down a dark path before with those coping mechanisms. She said she didn’t drink much, but she did it because she’s horribly unhappy, and she’s unhappy because she in a marriage without trust or nonjudgement (judgement is one of the things I have been shedding like crazy, and it is one of my character flaws.) She then immediately jumped to, this marriage is irreconcilable because the only way it will work is for her to have sex, and she’s never going to do that again.
I’ll note that she goes to that each time I confront her about bad behavior - calling names, slamming doors, swearing at me, and now drinking dangerously. “This marriage is dimmed because I’m never having sex again.”
I responded that I don’t want to have sex with anyone who doesn’t want to have sex with me, so we can put that aside. She said, no we can’t - it’s the major blockage in our marriage. She says she identifies as asexual, and all these years it was her trying to please me because she knows I want it. (I really don’t think I buy that - I think our sex life has been rocky and has rattled her over the years, but I know there’s been interest).
But she said that she’s never going to changer her mind. This was a line in the same moment, so I said the next thing that made sense - ok, then we should part ways.
If it’s the truth, it’s the truth. And if it’s a bluster, it needed to be called. I couldn’t keep saying I’m ok with it.
I didn’t want that moment to come today, but she took it there. It’s been her threat all along, her trump card. So I said, ok, if this is what you want. And I STRESS, this is NOT what I want - I want us both to grow as people and get to know each other as brand new people and grow old together. I still want to be married. But it takes two people to want to be married. So we started to talk next steps, what that would look like (S, what would happen to kids, finances, etc).
I couldn’t t quite believe we were there. I didn’t want to take it there. But she took it there, and I had a responsibility to bring up the drinking.
She went out for a while to think and process. I don’t know what will happen next.
I’m scared and hurt. But not as scared and hurt as I thought I’d be. I didn’t break her. I can’t fix her. She has a lot of soul-searching to do. If she decides she wants the marriage, in whatever form, I am still a husband who loves her. I think I love her unconditionally for the first time.
I’m not looking for anyone else. I will want my wife back. Or rather,I want this new person who my wife has become, and I want her to learn how to be her own person and be happy again.
I still have hope. I still have faith. And I have not ever and will not be cruel, will not hate, will not condemn.
I didn’t want to take the next step. I will not take any further steps toward S or D. But I will support her if she does.
We have been here before (though I was t so strong internally as I am now). She warns this, kicks up a lot of dust, threatens a bunch, and then it goes nowhere. This could be different. Or it could be the same. Everything could have happened, or nothing could have happened.
I love myself, and I love my wife. And my sons. This [censored]. I dread the night, and I dread the loneliness. But I will not give in to hate - I will keep my heart open to love, whatever comes next
She says she identifies as asexual, and all these years it was her trying to please me because she knows I want it. But she said that she’s never going to changer her mind. This was a line in the same moment, so I said the next thing that made sense - ok, then we should part ways. If it’s the truth, it’s the truth.
Originally Posted by Hotch
I couldn’t t quite believe we were there. I didn’t want to take it there. But she took it there, If she decides she wants the marriage, in whatever form, I am still a husband who loves her. I think I love her unconditionally for the first time. I will not take any further steps toward S or D.
Originally Posted by Hotch
She has a lot of soul-searching to do.
Hi Hotch, I have not followed your entire situation, so apologies if I'm missing context.. but I'm hearing two completely different stories from you, 1. an asexual partner is a dealbreaker for you so you want to part ways, 2. you love her unconditionally and will not take further steps towards S or D. It sounds like *you* have some soul-searching to do as to whether asexuality (short- or long-term) is a dealbreaker. If no, you're in a position to reassure her of that and drop all the pressure she's feeling around sex. If yes, it makes perfect sense for you to move on and find a partner who's more compatible with you.
The sex thing sounds simpler than that to me. I think she is using it to shift blame.
This is what WAW or WWs do. They will railroad the marriage and drive it to failure, but will attempt to engineer it in a way that they can blame you for it. That’s why if you approach her about alcoholism or smoking or slamming doors or swearing she will always drive it to the sex thing. She doesn’t want the guilt of this being her decision. It’s incredibly manipulative.
What should be ownership, ie: “I don’t want to stay married to Hoch or have sex with him”
Is manipulated into “We had to divorce because Hoch said he couldn’t have a relationship without sex.”
Classic move, in a world where fewer and fewer people take responsibility for their decisions and behaviour.
I dont know exactly where you are in your sitch but if there is a single thing I wish I would have understood better when looking back it is my own and my wife's view on sex and drives for sex. I believe it is the only ONE thing that might have changed the outcome of my R. So if you have the capacity, read as much as you can about sex and desire. Not saying it will change things, but it might help you understand more what is going on and help you validate her around what seems to be her cornerstone of all this.
Also, if you havnt read or listen to "love must be tough". Sounds like it would suit you.
Me: 34 Stbxw: 30 D:5 D:3 Mini bd: May/June 2019 Married: Aug 2019 BD: 6th Dec 2019 OM Confirmed: Feb 2020 March 2020: I filed for D Waiting for D to be finalized and W to move out end of January 2021
I asked her about the alcohol. Of course she felt accused and angry I brought I up, but I maintained that i simply wanted to know because I have a responsibility to make sure the children are safe and I saw what could be red flags. Of course she denied alcoholism and said she didn’t drink much/often. Don’t know that I buy that but I was genial and listened.
I was cool and level headed the entire time, and I validated as much as possible, while owning what came up for me. This is the basics of the conversation:
I said the drinking (and copious smoking) concerned me - not because she can’t make her decisions, but because we’ve been down a dark path before with those coping mechanisms. She said she didn’t drink much, but she did it because she’s horribly unhappy, and she’s unhappy because she in a marriage without trust or nonjudgement (judgement is one of the things I have been shedding like crazy, and it is one of my character flaws.) She then immediately jumped to, this marriage is irreconcilable because the only way it will work is for her to have sex, and she’s never going to do that again.
I’ll note that she goes to that each time I confront her about bad behavior - calling names, slamming doors, swearing at me, and now drinking dangerously. “This marriage is dimmed because I’m never having sex again.”
I responded that I don’t want to have sex with anyone who doesn’t want to have sex with me, so we can put that aside. She said, no we can’t - it’s the major blockage in our marriage. She says she identifies as asexual, and all these years it was her trying to please me because she knows I want it. (I really don’t think I buy that - I think our sex life has been rocky and has rattled her over the years, but I know there’s been interest).
But she said that she’s never going to changer her mind. This was a line in the same moment, so I said the next thing that made sense - ok, then we should part ways.
If it’s the truth, it’s the truth. And if it’s a bluster, it needed to be called. I couldn’t keep saying I’m ok with it.
I didn’t want that moment to come today, but she took it there. It’s been her threat all along, her trump card. So I said, ok, if this is what you want. And I STRESS, this is NOT what I want - I want us both to grow as people and get to know each other as brand new people and grow old together. I still want to be married. But it takes two people to want to be married. So we started to talk next steps, what that would look like (S, what would happen to kids, finances, etc).
I couldn’t t quite believe we were there. I didn’t want to take it there. But she took it there, and I had a responsibility to bring up the drinking.
She went out for a while to think and process. I don’t know what will happen next.
I’m scared and hurt. But not as scared and hurt as I thought I’d be. I didn’t break her. I can’t fix her. She has a lot of soul-searching to do. If she decides she wants the marriage, in whatever form, I am still a husband who loves her. I think I love her unconditionally for the first time.
I’m not looking for anyone else. I will want my wife back. Or rather,I want this new person who my wife has become, and I want her to learn how to be her own person and be happy again.
I still have hope. I still have faith. And I have not ever and will not be cruel, will not hate, will not condemn.
I didn’t want to take the next step. I will not take any further steps toward S or D. But I will support her if she does.
We have been here before (though I was t so strong internally as I am now). She warns this, kicks up a lot of dust, threatens a bunch, and then it goes nowhere. This could be different. Or it could be the same. Everything could have happened, or nothing could have happened.
I love myself, and I love my wife. And my sons. This [censored]. I dread the night, and I dread the loneliness. But I will not give in to hate - I will keep my heart open to love, whatever comes next
Thank you all for being here. Send positive vibes
Hoch, so what were you hoping to achieve by confronting her? I ask you this because I was like you early in my sitch. Anything she did that wasn't normal, or was new behavior, or seemed suspicious, I would confront. And almost always I got my grapes squashed.
You repeated: "I didn’t want that moment to come today," a couple of times. What you need to realize is that anytime you confront her about anything, she is going to "make that moment come". If you had come here before confronting we could have guided you, warned you, and let you know what was likely. My W was the same way. Anytime I confronted her she'd jump to "I am done. I want a D." So you have to expect this. If you find drugs she is taking, confronting likely will result in the same discussion. Sex toys are another big one that sets LBHs back. And causes us to confront and then get the same "I still want a D."
And on the sex thing, my W said the same thing. The truth is that she isn't asexual. This is her way of telling herself that to make herself feel better about what she is doing. "I am never having sex again. It isn't you, it is me." However, the truth is my W was horny as heck, it just was she didn't want to have sex with me because of how she felt about the marriage and our relationship. Likely she is having the same struggle. Wanting sex, but not wanting it with her H. Asexual people don't even bother to bring sex up. So unless you've been pressuring her this is likely her projecting her own sexual frustrations on to you. I don't know what your religious beliefs are, but my W's words were also trying to stay in keeping with our religious beliefs. "I am never having sex again" was based on Ding me and not being free to remarry in the future due to our beliefs on marriage-divorce-and-remarriage. SO sometimes things like that can come into play.
The bottom line is that she is NOT happy. And she is doing things and trying things to make herself happy. You do not have to agree with her methods, but you should understand that is what she is doing. For your W it is drinking and smoking. For my W it was meeting guys on the internet and getting compliments. But regardless of what they try to do, the motivation is unhappiness. Which is something only she can fix!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Number one, I took the advice of talking to her about it, but I didn’t have you guys coach me in how to steer the conversation. I won’t make that mistake again - every time there’s a potential altercation, I will check here.
I also want to say that I either did a very good thing or a very, VERY dumb thing. When she said “this marriage is unsalvageable and I know it in my heart,” and I asked her what she wanted to do, I also said, kindly, that I’d already talked to a lawyer (she doesn’t have to know it’s my aunt, and all she’s said is she’ll represent me if things ever get bad). But she asked why, and I simply said I wanted to know what my options were if things went that way. I then restated that I don’t WANT to go that route. But this is the first time it’s ever escalated to that, and I wanted her to know I wouldn’t be unprepared. I either did a lot of good saying that or a TON of damage. I don’t know.
Steve85, Kind18, and Mumin - I wholeheartedly believe what you are saying. The fact that it always comes to “I’m never having sex again and I know it’s what you need” definitely reads to me like an engineered end, because it comes up ANY time I stand and say a behavior is unacceptable to me. The truth is i did pressure her a lot after the kids were born. She had pulled away emotionally and physically and I didn’t understand what was going on, and I was desperate and stupid, so I pressured. But I haven’t brought it up in nearly a year - she has mentioned it three times in the past 8 months, always as a defense mechanism when I tell her something she’s doing bothers me.
My spidey sense - my GUT - is telling me she WANTS it to be true. She WANTS to be asexual in the moment. But there’s so much pointing against it. She was really into sex toys when we first got together. She had a thing for romance novels and, well, getting down on her own. And a few years ago she bought 50 Shades of Grey to watch on her own. Plus I KNOW I’ve felt interest from her. She says she has always felt there was something wrong with her that she didn’t have a sex drive, and those things were all her trying to jump start it but they never worked. Maybe there’s some truth in that’s maybe not. But the whole thing doesn’t ring true.
But she hates me for our sex life. There is venom in her words and here eyes when she talks about it. Looking back, our sex life has been a constant battle of my trying to second guess her unreadable preferences, and her experiencing that as pressure and control and judgement. It’s been me fundamentally not understanding female sexuality and being a people-pleaser, something I am trying to remedy now. But she thinks that that part of our marriage is irrevocably broken and unsalvageable.
So last night, as she was out all day processing the conversation, and I was out with my boys driving and getting ice cream. I was nervous to come home, because I wasn’t sure if I would find the beds moved or boxes packed. Instead I came home and she was still out. She later sent me a text saying “I’m paralyzed to come home, I can’t cry anymore.” I asked if there was anything more she wanted to say. “Not tonight.” So I told her, “never be afraid to come home. There are three people here who love you and the house is warm and full of food.” She then said “it’s not a decision to be made lightly or quickly.” So she came home and, unsurprisingly? played video games with me and the kids and joked about getting their pajamas on. As if nothing had happened.
Maybe nothing did? Maybe everything did?
She is extremely unhappy. She hates me, and hates me specifically for our sex life. But like her mom before her, she won’t do anything to address her problems, except push everyone away and bury the problems.
It breaks my heart. All I can do is GAL, love my sons, and love her. I do love her unconditionally, for the first time. I don’t truly believe she is asexual, I think it’s a shield against intimacy and pain.
I love this beautiful, hurting girl.
Today will likely be another day where nothing is wrong and everything is back to normal. Please advise for next steps.
First, you never love unconditionally. That isn't even logical. Loving unconditionally literally means "no matter WHAT she does". I am sure there are things she could do to make you not love her. Love her, but admit that there are conditions to that love. Unconditional love is an extremely rare thing, and should never be, in my humble opinion, how we categorize the love we have for another human-being with the exception of our children.
Second, one of the things that really started to sober my W up to the reality of where things were and where they were going was when she found out I was consulting an attorney. She was in a fantasy fog of a painless D, and that fact shattered that reality.
Third, your right. She is angry at you. This is why you back off and avoid ALL pressure and pursuit. She is like a cat...she has to come to you on her terms. The minute you reach out for her she will run the other direction.
Finally, how long can you realistically live like this? If it takes her 5 years to snap out of this, will you wait for 5 years? 10? Have an end goal in mind. Work towards it. "I will give her until June 15th, 2021, and if she is committed back to the marriage by then, I will go file for D."
You'd be shocked at how freeing having a deadline is. But commit to it. Do not get to June 15th and make excuses.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Thank you. I’m feeling very lost right now, and I spent last night deeply regretting bringing up the lawyer. Your message really means a lot to me, helps provide direction and a little badly-needed hope.
I do have a deadline in mind, and it has been somewhat freeing. And honestly, even though yesterday was very hard, it largely doesn’t change the situation. My deadline is still in place, and I will continue GALing like crazy and learning to live my own life, while also distancing and detaching. And holding out non-binding hope that she is on a path to heal herself.
I hope you’re right and what worked in your situation helps in mine - that mentioning I had contingent plans sobers her up a little. Because I think she’s currently in the position of “stay as far away as possible and make no movements toward improvement.”
My best guess is that she knows there is a lot broken in our situation, and is just burying problems under more problems hoping they’ll go away. Some day she will have to face those problems head on.
But everything in my life is giving me the same message: “let go, stop pushing life.” It’s come to me from multiple directions in multiple formats, and I need to start listening to it. God, I miss my wife. I want that reconciliation so bad it hurts. I want that healed family with smiling faces and shared love. But what I’m seeing in literature all around me is, let go of the wanting. It’s the only way you can be free in life. Let go and stop pushing,
I thought I had, and then yesterday blindsided me. I clearly have more work to do.
This all is hard, so hard. I think you, like me, feel a deep need to intellectually process all of this and understand why it is happening and what is going on. If only you could research enough, figure out the exact right buttons to push, in the exact right order, put it all on your to-do list and check it all off every day, things would get better. Of course, that isn't the answer... but I know how hard it is to let go of the processes that have served so well up until now in life.
Here is my suggestion for you right now. Take this all down a notch. Try to stop worrying about what is going to happen in a week or a month or a year or tonight. I know you want that healed family with smiling faces and shared love. You don't have that right now, at least not with your W. You do with your children, though... and in fact you've been doing more and more with them recently, right? Spend the day focusing on what you DO have in your life. Maybe do a gratitude practice if it isn't too much-- write down all the things you're grateful for, and focus there. In the hardest days, I just hugged my kids and cuddled on the couch with them after dinner and we watched TV and ate popcorn. I emptied my mind of everything but the sensation of being with them. The smell of their hair, the little bodies curled in next to me, the little hand on my arm. Let the love of them wash over me and help me find peace, just for that moment.
I also focused on sensations that were comforting. The warmth on my hands with a mug of coffee. The taste of my favorite comfort food. The sun on my face. A purring cuddly cat. My favorite songs. Noticing just how beautiful the mountain is outside my house. I fed my senses and l focused on being present in those moments. Just get a little peace for yourself.
And forgive yourself... please don't waste time and energy regretting anything you've done post-BD. You are doing the very best you can in an incredibly difficult situation. So you started an R talk. So you brought up the L (which, FWIW, I don't think was a bad thing). One of the vets early on told me after I started an R talk I shouldn't have-- pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and keep on DBing. It's OK. You didn't break her, and you can't fix her.
Hang in there.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
I didn’t break her, and I can’t fix her. That’s another refrain that’s coming up a lot from different sources. I’m finally seeing that.
And also, I came across this gem earlier when looking up self-improvement videos. The coach said that he spent years looking for the breakthrough that was going to define his life. He finally did, but the breakthrough was that he didn’t NEED a breakthrough. He wasn’t broken.
I’m not broken. I think for years I’ve felt like a failure because I couldn’t fix her. I couldn’t make her happy. Just like I couldn’t make my depressed mom happy growing up. I’ve felt broken for a long time. I think it’s time to stop feeling that way.
I have felt broken that she doesn’t want me sexually. That seems to be the worst rejection a man can feel, especially from his wife.
But all the reading I’m doing is about how what we push against pushes back. I’ve been pushing against that rejection, even subconsciously. And against my apparent brokenness, against her unhappiness.
I think I need to start letting go of all of that go. Stop pushing life. Start appreciating the small things as you say - the warmth of a coffee cup, the smallness of my sons hand in mine. The little richnesses of life.
I will pick myself up, dust myself off, and keep DBing.
Well, I went and stuck my foot in it again. I had another R talk, and I got my grapes crushed. I just don’t f*ing learn.
Just before a zoom meeting about my son’s schooling, my wife opened her laptop and I saw she was looking up apartments. My heart froze. I asked if they were for us to move (we had talked about an even cheaper place), or for her to move out. She said “either or,” and reiterated that “it’s not a decision to be made lightly.”
After the meeting ended, I couldn’t stop myself from saying, “I don’t want you to move out. I want to improve this.” She said she’s “just looking for options, not making decisions.”
I said “it hurts me to see you in pain. I never wanted to see you in pain. I see you going through this and I want to do everything in my power to help you. I still love you, even though you feel like you’re failing. I still believe in you.”
She said, very calmly, “the problem is, I can only ever be a partner, I can never be a wife.” I said “it doesn’t change how much I love you, it doesn’t change how much I believe in you. And I don’t want you out of my life.”
You guys, I don’t know what I’m doing. With this pandemic, with this situation. My heart feels like it’s being pulled out of my chest all over again. I don’t know whether to have faith or not. She sure sounded definite. I’m failing at DBing. I’m failing at detaching. I’m failing at not bringing up the R. I feel ashamed to post here because of how much I’m f*ing this up. I’m going backward.
You guys, I don’t know what I’m doing. With this pandemic, with this situation. My heart feels like it’s being pulled out of my chest all over again. I don’t know whether to have faith or not. She sure sounded definite. I’m failing at DBing. I’m failing at detaching. I’m failing at not bringing up the R. I feel ashamed to post here because of how much I’m f*ing this up. I’m going backward.
I miss her so much. I’m lost.
I could have written this, Hoch. You're not alone. I did 7 months of BD-ing, as best I could at least, and my WAH announced he wanted to come home, and said and did all of the right things. He spent a couple months convincing me how ready he was to come home and how happy he was, and after 1 month of being home, he just left again.
I find DB-ing in this pandemic so hard, but LH is right, you dust yourself off and keep trying. Do your best to restrain yourself from R talks, and try to find things to distract yourself and focus elsewhere.
Your W is on a journey. Let her do her thing. You do yours. (I know how hard it is to follow this advice.)
I'm 40, H is 36. No kids. No infidelity of which I'm aware. Mini BD January 2020 -- not sure if he wants to try anymore BD March 2020 -- separation
I don't know your situation but I saw your last post and had to respond. I feel for you man, the word that best describes it - despair.
The fear is real and can make a mess of your sitch if you let it.
You didn't ruin your chance with your W by having one more R talk. But you do need to 180 and make immediate changes.
Going forward.. ANYTIME you feel compelled to have a R talk with your W, come here first and post about it. You are so knee deep in your emotions, it's triggering your fight or flight response. You feel compelled to DO something. Unfortunately, that's not how you will get your W back. Post here first and let people that have zero emotional connection to your W, reel you back in before you make a mistake. Deal?
Thank you so much everyone for your support and understanding. I should have known that I didn’t have to feel ashamed to post my mistakes.
LH19 - thank you so very much. That was what I needed to hear. Get up, dust off, keep going.
I’m trying not to spiral. The things which are helping keep me afloat are this:
* she is on her own journey * it often gets worse before it gets better * there really is nothing for me to do, decide, or take action on right now. Just be with my small boys and love them and breathe the air.
I still go back and forth on the question of if I’m a fool or not, if she’s actually asexual or is just so traumatized that she would actually hold to being closed off forever. Maybe I always will wonder that. But as I process this terrifying uncertainty, I can only make my decisions based on my values:
I won’t hate. I will believe in the good of people and the ability to change. I will do everything in my power to build a happy, and intact, home for my young boys. Given those, the only path in front of me is to stay the course, DB, and hope.
I think the stories I need to find right now are the ones about having hope in the darkness, in the face of certain failure, and about how it worked out. Anyone have any of those?
Those ones are hard to say out loud for some reason. Because they contain hope for me, but not for the situation. I’m clinging so hard to hope, but I know I need to develop my indifference to outcome.
This wouldn’t be nearly as hard if I didn’t have my two boys to think about. And if we split to separate households, the thought of missing half their young lives to another household just threatens to break me. I love them with every ounce of heart I have, and the thought of a life with them missing half the time, plus being in this pandemic... god, I’m spiraling again. I need to stop and go hug them.
The thought of losing half the time is overwhelming but again not as bad as you envision it. I am closer with my children then I have ever been because of the quality time we spend together. Being away from them gives me a chance to miss them. Then when I see them again it brings a real joy to my life.
Right now you are going through is catastrophic thinking. Google it.
LH is right. You really aren't losing half of your time with your boys. You'll adjust your schedule to be much more present during the time that you have with them and to focus much more on them. Also, you might find that you'll have them more than half of the time. That part of the catastrophic thinking definitely did not come to pass for me.
I thought about something today regarding hope, maybe it will help you.
I don’t need hope, I have DBing, other research, and time on my side, one way or another I will win from this situation. I will get better and better as I get farther away from this sitch and either my WW will have to make genuine changes that I have the support here to sort through or I will eventually find someone better and be happier. So no matter what the outcome is, I win. And so do you.
T:11 M:10 K: D5, S7 BD: 9/1/20 WW continues to break up and recon with OM. I paid last fees and pushed the D 5/3/2021 Default Dissolution granted 8/5/21. Glad my D was not busted.
I know exactly how you feel. Especially about the children. None of us signed up to have children only half of the time. I totally, totally get it.
But if I may... pushing these R talks simply IS NOT HELPING. Maybe she finds an apartment. Maybe she doesn't. It is all completely out of your control-- unless you apply more pressure, more R talks, more more more... that may be solidifying her decision. The more she hears you love her the more she feels guilty that she doesn't feel the same way back.
What can you do to STOP talking to her about this stuff? I get it that it is triggering to see her looking at apartments. it doesn't mean she's getting one. I think this is one of the reasons that GAL is such a big focus here-- you need something to take your mind off of your W and put it back on you and your kids, and honestly to get physically away from her so you aren't peering over her shoulder at her computer and freaking out about what she's looking at.
So, can you make a plan for the next few days? Things for you, things for you to do with your kids? Get yourself out of the house so you can avoid putting yourself in a situation where you feel compelled to say something? And, have some strategies for how to deal when you are triggered and really really really feel the need to say something to her. When I felt like I couldn't stop myself from saying something to my H and opening up an R talk, there were a bunch of random things I would do to stop myself, ranging from opening and closing my hands over and over and repeating a mantra in my mind (ranging from "he's an a-hole that I don't want to live with anyway" to "amor fati") to hugging my kids or coming to this site or calling a friend. Eventually, it got easier. (And I need to start this back up again.)
And not that my sitch is anything anyone would want to emulate and we are not in piecing, but FWIW my H looked at apartments and found the perfect one and put in an application and got it. And that was what turned him back around (for the time being). But he had to do that 100% on his own.
I just think the more time you can spend focusing on yourself and what you need to calm down and re-center yourself, and the less time you worry about whether or not she's really asexual or is going to finally follow through on her threats to MO, the better. One thing that helped me here was focusing on my kids. It sounds like your W is going through a very rough time, no matter what, with the drinking and the rest, and your children are going to need you at your best. So do what you have to do to pull it together for them.
You can do this, H.
Me (46) H (42) M:14 T:18, D9 & D11 4/19 - 12/19: series of escalating BDs 9/20 - present: R and piecing
First, you never love unconditionally. That isn't even logical. Loving unconditionally literally means "no matter WHAT she does". I am sure there are things she could do to make you not love her. Love her, but admit that there are conditions to that love. Unconditional love is an extremely rare thing, and should never be, in my humble opinion, how we categorize the love we have for another human-being with the exception of our children.
Thank you! Years ago, I expressed the same viewpoint on unconditional love. The closest thing we come to experiencing complete unconditional love is with our children. I relate it to a pregnant woman who loves her baby before its even born. That's unconditional love.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Oh Hoch, please don't be afraid to post about your mistakes. Don't fear what the board may say, and don't fear you have disappointed anyone here. This is about your life, and if you can't be painfully honest with us......how can we help you?
(((hugs))) You've taken all the responsibility for the breakdown in this MR. You see yourself as a failure, and it's eating you alive. I know you love her, and feel you can't live without her, but this goes beyond loving, IMHO. I mean, this is pure fear I'm seeing in your recent posts. Is it about abandonment issues? Are you a control freak? Are you a perfectionist? What is really at the steering wheel here? Have you read Steve85 link in the blue shaded portion of the first page in newcomers? If not, maybe it would help to calm your anxiety.
My FOO always thought you could work through relationship problems by getting the cards on the table and talking it out. I nearly talked my poor H to death in our early years of M. He doesn't talk, so it usually turned out to be a monologue. It feels natural for us talkers to approach our spouse with concerns. I, too, am a confronter. So, I understand the urge to confront her.
Here's the thing about confrontation. You must have a plan that follows the confrontation. You are seeking an explanation from her. What if the explanation doesn't come, or what if it falls on deaf ears and you get nothing? I think confrontation immediately puts the other person in defense mode. They may counter attack, but it's still a defensive move. Therefore, what will be your next move? See what I mean? If she denies and lies, your confrontation does nothing more than alert her that you are suspicious and she needs to cover her tracks better. It seldom solves the initial problem.
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Just before a zoom meeting about my son’s schooling, my wife opened her laptop and I saw she was looking up apartments. My heart froze. I asked if they were for us to move (we had talked about an even cheaper place), or for her to move out. She said “either or,” and reiterated that “it’s not a decision to be made lightly.”
After the meeting ended, I couldn’t stop myself from saying, “I don’t want you to move out. I want to improve this.” She said she’s “just looking for options, not making decisions.”
I said “it hurts me to see you in pain. I never wanted to see you in pain. I see you going through this and I want to do everything in my power to help you. I still love you, even though you feel like you’re failing. I still believe in you.”
She said, very calmly, “the problem is, I can only ever be a partner, I can never be a wife.” I said “it doesn’t change how much I love you, it doesn’t change how much I believe in you. And I don’t want you out of my life.”
Some women might give their eye teeth to hear their H say what you told your W. However, the W who doesn't soften is the one who has hardened her heart against her H. In that case, his tender caring words have little affect on changing her mind. I know it must be very difficult to understand. I wish I had the ability to explain it better.
Having the relationship talks add a lot of emotional pressure to her, and causes her to resist, resent, and run. It's not you.......it's her. The more you express concern, love, needs, etc., the more she'll pull back. That's the nature of a hard hearted wife. At this point, relationship talks are not your friend.
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You guys, I don’t know what I’m doing. With this pandemic, with this situation. My heart feels like it’s being pulled out of my chest all over again. I don’t know whether to have faith or not. She sure sounded definite. I’m failing at DBing. I’m failing at detaching. I’m failing at not bringing up the R. I feel ashamed to post here because of how much I’m f*ing this up. I’m going backward.
I think the majority of newcomers can't wrap their minds around the concept of DBing. I mean, they read the advice but they just can't shed their old ways of dealing with a spouse. Some of them can't even see how they are pursuing and pressuring. They are afraid and try to control or change the mind of their spouse. Right now, fear is your biggest enemy, Hoch.
I may have a different take on faith/hope. I don't believe in blind faith. There has to be an object of faith. Faith, IMHO, is not holding your breath and praying a situation will go as you desire. For me, faith is a spiritual function, and I don't put faith in other human beings. God is the object of my faith, and I trust Him to have his perfect will for whatever situation I find myself. His will and His timing is perfect. Mine is not. Therefore, things may not go according to what I desired at the time, but that's okay b/c my will and my timing are imperfect. I know He will do what's best, if I'll get out of His way.
There is a difference in hoping for the best outcome, and being paralyzed by what we can't control. Fear can paralyze us to where we can't function. Hope gives us freedom in ways we may not have considered, and a little thing called time. I guess some people do have to give up hope for their M, in order to just move on with their life. That's something the individual has to decide. I don't think anyone around here will judge you. It's your life.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thank you so much folks. Your kind words keep me afloat.
It’s been two days, and I’ve barely slept. I keep expecting her to tell me she’s moving out, and I keep hugging my kids like it’s that last time. I’m just now starting to relax by a hair, but still terrified. I definitely have deep seated abandonment issues, and it’s pulling me apart.
I need some advice, and this time I’m coming to you WELL ahead of doing anything stupid.
My wife may or not be asexual. My guess - and faith - is that she has a low libido, is traumatized from our rocky relationship and her compulsion to be a people pleaser (which made her capitulate to things she didn’t want) and is in shutdown. She is saying things is black and white terms because she is hurting and our marriage is on the edge.
But the important thing is that she is deeply hurting right now. She may have undiagnosed aspergers, adhd, and I’m starting to suspect, bipolar. She had a cry for help a few years ago where I thought I’d lost her. If she were to move out right now, I would worry for her safety and the safety of my kids in her care.
This is what my therapist suggests: Deescalate and get her help, get her to trust me enough to help her find support for her issues. He suggests I sit her down and say: “W, I see you saying sex is the core schism of our marriage and we are doomed to split, which is why you’re looking for apartments. Instead, let’s commit to not worrying about any of this until S2 is 4. You don’t need to move out, instead I will remove all pressure and we can focus on getting you help and support so you don’t feel so stuck and pressured.”
What do you all think? I told my therapist I would talk it over with my “people” and check it against DB strategy. I don’t know where to deviate from DB with a depressed spouse who is showing substance abuse signs.
Not a good idea. If she wants to leave and you are asking her to stay that is pressure. You have to open the cage door. If she leaves then you have to let her leave. If you are concerned for the safety of your kids then legally find out what you can do. Things typically have to get worse before they can better Hoch. I’m sorry.
Hoch, you need to learn one simple truth that was so important for me to learn in my sitch. No matter her issues. No matter what the underlying causes of her issues are. YOU CANNOT FIX HER.
I always say the LBSs that struggle the most are the ones that do GAL the worst. However, a close second is LBSs that think they can control/fix/find a cure for their WAS. You cannot. And you will bash your skull against a brick wall trying. Focus off of her. You have no control over her. If she is going to move out she is going to move out. If she has underlying issues that she needs to address, she will either address them or she won't.
Also your whole premise is flawed. As LH said, asking her not to move out IS pressure. So "You don’t need to move out, instead I will remove all pressure and we can focus on getting you help and support so you don’t feel so stuck and pressured." is contradictory. Also, you obviously didn't understand her feelings around sexual pressure. It isn't that you are pressuring her for sex, it is that being with you and being in an R with you makes her feel sexual pressure. In simple terms, your mere presence makes her feel sexual pressure.
I know this because my W was the same way. I once, in my beta state, offered (and this was way before she became a WAW/WW) to just agree to never have sex again. I had seen some TV program where couples decided to live sexless lives, and the impression the show gave was that they were flourishing and doing wonderful. I think now looking back on it that it is a pile of crapola. But my goal, like yours, was to remove all sexual pressure from her. (Deep down I thought that might make her feel relaxed enough to where she would actually decide she wanted to have sex, but that was NGS acting up!). She made it clear that wasn't not logical, reasonable, nor logistically possible, and in hindsight she was 100% right. Just being married to me, sleeping in the same bed with me, interacting as couples do dressing and undressing around each other made her feel sexual pressure. So unless you are up for castration, I do not think a mere sentence stating "I will remove all pressure" is going to cut it.
You are still looking for the magic pill that if she swallows will fix everything. Or the magic bullet that you can shoot your sitch with and make everything better. There is no such thing. The way forward is simple: GAL, 180s, detachment. And while simple, i understand it is difficult to focus on and stay on that track. But the better you get at it, removing all focus and attempts to control things, the freer you will feel no matter what your WAW decides.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
That’s what I suspected. Thank you for setting me straight. I had t considered that taking off all pressure was a form of pressure.
I once again need to go back to basics.
I’m still working on GAL. It’s very hard in this pandemic w limited funds, so most of my GAL activities have to by necessity be in the house. But I am learning to be as creative as possible within those bounds.
I’m just not getting 180s. I have a list as long as my arm as to what they can be, but I am scrambled as to which of them I should put in place. So far, the 180s I’ve held to are:
* don’t bring up R talks (I’ve f*ed this one up twice in a week) * be casual and upbeat * offer to give her breaks as much as possible * be a more involved dad
Other than that, I’m confused on what I should do. I will go back and re-read the DR book
Steve85 - I’m curious to know more about your sitch, as a lot of the sexless stuff you talk about sounds similar. Do you have a thread I could read, or could you expand on how your sitch went? Especially since it lead to recon. I’m not looking for techniques, or to cherry pick (which I know is dangerous) but simply more info.
Also, I’m considering taking some of our very limited funds and calling the DB coaching line. Can anyone vouch for it against?
Also, I’m considering taking some of our very limited funds and calling the DB coaching line. Can anyone vouch for it against?
It has been along time since I had my coaching, but the feedback I see here says the sessions are worth it. They are professionals and are experts in MWD principles.
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
I’m just not getting 180s. I have a list as long as my arm as to what they can be, but I am scrambled as to which of them I should put in place. So far, the 180s I’ve held to are:
* don’t bring up R talks (I’ve f*ed this one up twice in a week) * be casual and upbeat * offer to give her breaks as much as possible * be a more involved dad
Other than that, I’m confused on what I should do.
Here is a good example of a 180:
If you typically use "You" statements, start making "I" statements.
"You make me so mad!!!" turns into "I am angry that you left the dirty dishes in the sink"
"What is best for my kids is best for me" Amor Fati Link to quotes: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2879712
If you are limited on funds then I would hold back on a DB coach. You seem to have difficulty following advice and having another hand in the pot may confuse you even more.
I really wish you understood that there is absolutely nothing you can do to fix this right now. I’m afraid you are going to end up tieing yourself in a pretzel. We can feel your anxiety on the board so if we can feel it so can your W.
As far as the coach. In my opinion it isn't whether you can afford to, its really can you not afford to try? In other words, scrounge up the money and do it.....it might be what helps turn your sitch around whether your save your marriage or not.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
“W, I see you saying sex is the core schism of our marriage and we are doomed to split, which is why you’re looking for apartments. Instead, let’s commit to not worrying about any of this until S2 is 4. You don’t need to move out, instead I will remove all pressure and we can focus on getting you help and support so you don’t feel so stuck and pressured.”
Are you ready to go two yrs without sex? The only thing I can agree with the IC is to deescalate the drama & tension. Stop bringing up the subject of sex, for now. Don't approach her about your feelings.
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You don’t need to move out, instead I will remove all pressure and we can focus on getting you help and support so you don’t feel so stuck and pressured.”
Sorry, I know you mean well, but I think she won't respond well to this statement. I could be wrong, but your concern is likely to come across as wanting to get her fixed so you can have sex. Maybe you just need to drop talking about sex for now.
Are you seeing the IC specifically for your marital problems, or are you there for your insecurity issues? Don't you think it would be more beneficial to get help for your abandonment issues, and any other emotional problems you have?
Your emotional state concerns me. You are bouncing all over the place, going from her being asexual to possibly bipolar. You are freaking out, and need to calm down. You can't help anyone until you get control of your own emotions. You are sounding very desperate. I understand you love her and it's killing you to see her in pain. You want to get help for her, but it's hard to get an adult help if they won't cooperate.
You've listed a wide range of mental health possibilities. Does anyone in her immediate family have any of these mental issues?
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She had a cry for help a few years ago where I thought I’d lost her.
What happened? Was she hospitalized? Can you tell us the diagnosis? Is she taking medication?
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I don’t know where to deviate from DB with a depressed spouse who is showing substance abuse signs.
Can you give an example of something particularly to deviate in DBing?
Where is her family? Have they commented on her behavior......or showed concern for her mental health?
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Ok, it’s been a few days, I’m finally calm enough to discuss.
Guys, I finally get it.
I’m done pushing life. I’m done trying to fix life or control life. This is my situation, and there’s nothing I can do to improve it or change it. I’m going to start learning to be ok with that.
You’re right that I have still been looking for the silver bullet or the magic pill. I was still looking for the perfect way to bend events and conversations to find a resolution to this. But the last few days broke me. I had taken some of the advice here and told my W if she was so sure, she should move out. And then she started looking for apts. and I had to face the possibility that I would be alone, or single parenting my kids in the middle of a pandemic with no contact or help. It terrified me to my core and sent me to a very dark place.
So instead, I am finally coming to terms with the fact that I have a troubled roommate for a W, and there is nothing I can do to help her. But what I DO have is my kids under my roof 7 days a week, I get to cuddle them and sleep next to them, and I have in my W a helping hand and someone to chat with. I am reframing to appreciate the warmth she brings to conversations, the kind sharing of our days, and the joy of getting to be around my kids whenever I want.
I’m learning a lot about letting go, surrendering, and accepting. And I’m reading up on healing old wounds, attachments, and fears. I’m going to start working on my own emotions and hurts. I will be here if she ever wants to talk about her problems and will support her if she wants to grow. I will listen, validate, and not judge. I will hope, but not act on it. But for now, I am happy to have my kids here with me and someone to talk to during the day. Maybe it’s fear, I don’t care. This pandemic has pushed me to my absolute limit, and I can’t push back anymore, so I’m going to start counting my blessings and enjoying the small things in life.
Sometimes I compare my “courage” relative to what all these books say about moving on and leading your own life. Whatever, maybe I don’t measure up. But for five years, I’ve been up against an inhuman number of circumstances - facing bankruptcy, two oppositionally defiant kids, one special needs (ASD/ADHD), a crumbling marriage, a traumatized/withdrawn wife, job loss, eviction, 5 house moves, intense job stress. I’m not playing the victim - I am NOT a victim. But I am also recognizing that those guidelines for how to be brave in your life DONT account for being inside a burning building, in an earthquake, in a tornado, in a tsunami. I’m done fighting and I’m done comparing how well I’m doing and slamming myself for not measuring up. I have done an AMAZING f*ing job in these circumstances, and I still have my self-respect, my love for W and kids, and I still refuse to put hate in my heart or be a victim. My heart is still wide open to hope and love.
180s and GAL are my future. Because I have things I want to be different about myself. Not to change HER, but because I love MYSELF and want to be the best me I can be. I will not judge or belittle or dismiss in conversations. I will listen and validate and show interest in the other person, be happy to share a conversation, and ask questions showing I would like to know more about their world. I will do the things I am supposed to do, not because I want something back, but because they need to be done and they are part of being a responsible adult. I will give when I can because it makes me feel good, and I will say no when I don’t want to do a thing. I will enjoy life and accept and even celebrate that my situation is NOT perfect and will likely never be, but it has many blessings and sources of joy. I will accept where fate takes me - amor fati.
I’ll answer your questions, but for clarification’s sake, not trying to fix anything.
Re: mental health, my family has always been big on mental health. My mom is a therapist, and the motto is, if you see a problem you address it so it doesn’t impact your life. My wife’s family is the opposite, they bury and do not talk about mental health issues. Her father has a terminal illness, her mother has chronic depression and is a narcissist (and possibly on the spectrum), and she has 2 siblings and 2 nieces/nephews who are ADHD and possibly on the spectrum, and 1 sibling who has had crippling depression for years. There is little to no curiosity in dealing with these diagnoses for her family, they’re just something that sort of “is” and if they ever get explained, it really doesn’t have much impact.
Yes, when she had her cry for help, she had downed a bunch of my sleeping pills and alcohol while she was home alone watching our 2 year old. I came home to find her on the floor, unconscious, with my 2yo standing over her. They kept her in hospital for 3 days to make sure she wasn’t a danger to herself and others. To this day, she says she just “wanted some sleep” and is angry over how affected I seem to still be by it. Her attitude even at the time was more of a “what’s the big deal” response, although she later said she deeply regretted it. For me, that was the night I thought I was going to lose my wife. Her family has shown almost no concern at all for her mental health. I don’t even know what that concern would look like if they did, since they don’t talk about mental health issues. “Sorry you’ve been down,” maybe?
So yes, here I am. I’m not done hoping, and not done building, but I am done fighting and pushing and controlling life.
Hoch, just caught up on this thread, will catch up on part 1 later. You have got some great people following and commenting, I don't have anything specific to advise, but just to say, that while our sitchs are different we are going through the same thing. Good luck, keep at it, I have found it so helpful to know others are going through the same struggles at the same time all over the world.
Interested to know how it goes if you get the DB coach. I'm not sure I'll be doing it, but then my W has been moved out for 3 months, OM seems to be a proper BF and we barely talk anymore, but who knows.
Me: 41 W:42 T: 14 M: 11 S: 6
"What happened happened, and couldn't have happened any other way...because it didn't"
That was a great post up above and if you can keep it up you will be in great shape. Try to stay even keel and off the roller coaster because you have some good days and great posts and then days of desperation. Remember these two things, you can only control you and you did not break her and you cannot fix her.
I’ve started reading (listening to) Hawkins book Letting Go. It’s all about surrendering to the moment, letting feelings come up, allowing them, then asking if they are willing to go. And accepting if they are not, inviting them back later to see if they will go then. The theme is all about surrendering to the moment, which is in tune with my state right now.
As I’m accepting emotions and welcoming them, the primary thing I’m finding aside from sadness is... tiredness. I’m tired. Like, bone-deep, soul-weary tired. Tired of pushing and cajoling life and trying to make it work to my will.
I’m surprised at how flat and tired I am the last few days. I just can’t get up the energy to do much, and after the shock of last weekend - the appearance that I might just (still could) lose it all, I just sort of shut down and haven’t restarted. Hence why it took me three days to make a post here.
Part of me feels that if I pull myself back up, the ground will fall out from underneath me, and I just can’t bring myself to do that right now. It’s an interesting sensation: I’m not depressed, I’ve been there before and I know the feeling. I still have interest in my life and hobbies, I just can’t summon the energy to engage with them. I’m sort of watching it from the sidelines and observing the changes in myself right now, and commenting for anyone who might be going through the same thing.
It makes me realize how much I’ve been working to orchestrate the situation the last few years. Trying to help intervene in my W’s deteriorating relationship with the kids, her work schedule, her sleep schedule. Always trying to help, interject, or encourage a specific outcome. But not now. She does what she does, all I need to do is work, spend time with the kids, and breathe. It’s much less work, and I can feel myself sort of decompressing a bit at a time.
Thank you for the kind words. You’re right that it really does help to hear other people going through the same thing, even though I wouldn’t wish it on anybody. It’s nice to know the human experience is shared, especially right now when each of us is feeling the temporary absence of a life partner to share it with. Keep at it, I know I will.
[quote=Hoch I’m surprised at how flat and tired I am the last few days. I just can’t get up the energy to do much, and after the shock of last weekend - the appearance that I might just (still could) lose it all, I just sort of shut down and haven’t restarted. Hence why it took me three days to make a post here. [/quote]
This is a huge red flag for depression and you really need to setup an appointment with your physician to discuss it.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I’m tired. Like, bone-deep, soul-weary tired. Tired of pushing and cajoling life and trying to make it work to my will.
It makes me realize how much I’ve been working to orchestrate the situation the last few years. Trying to help intervene in my W’s deteriorating relationship with the kids, her work schedule, her sleep schedule. Always trying to help, interject, or encourage a specific outcome.
You have said everything in just a few words, what I wanted to say. Orchestrate is a great word that describes the the "work" of many newcomers.
You've tried to carry all the load, hoping it would fix the problems. You have been compassionate and patient with your W, and you've tried to reach her heart, but she isn't responding in a positive way. What ever is her problem, she has to figure it out and fix it. I think for some H's, they feel they are giving up hope, when they realize they can't fix their W.
IMHO, both of you need individual therapy, and you need help for the kids. I've never heard anyone refer to their child as special needs when they had ADHD. I've been around a lot of ADHD kids, but to my knowledge they were never defined as special needs children. How are things going for him at school?
What method of discipline is used with your oldest son? Are the two of you on the same page in how to discipline and manage them? I can't help but think your W is in deep depression, due to being a SAHM and not able to manage the kid issues. It doesn't make her a bad mom. Some women just aren't cut out to stay home all day, b/c of how it effects them mentally. I really hope you will reach out to professionals that can help with your child.
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I’m not depressed, I’ve been there before and I know the feeling. I still have interest in my life and hobbies, I just can’t summon the energy to engage with them. I’m sort of watching it from the sidelines and observing the changes in myself right now, and commenting for anyone who might be going through the same thing.
It seems your body is reacting as if you're depressed. I don't know how you have time for hobbies, etc., b/c you've been giving so much time & effort at home. I hope you don't reach the point that nothing is interesting. I think it could happen, considering how you currently feel. Don't wait long, to see if you get to feeling better. Get to a doctor.
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But not now. She does what she does, all I need to do is work, spend time with the kids, and breathe. It’s much less work, and I can feel myself sort of decompressing a bit at a time.
You have to protect your body & spirit. Decompressing is good, but don't become completely passive, as you observe the sitch. Finding a healthy balance is key.
((hugs))
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Hello everyone. Hope everyone in the states had a good thanksgiving.
It’s been a little while, and I’m happy to share that I’m not depressed. For a few days I thought I might be, but I’ve since evened out. I think it was the shock.
I’ve started a new exercise program, a new daytime listening curriculum of self/help and discovery while I work, and I’ve renewed my interest in my side business. I am maintaining my position of not pushing life, even though it has been difficult a few times to hold to and remember that.
I’m focusing on myself and my kids. The last few weeks since I resolved myself to not push, I’ve noticed my wife being more and more open and expressive around me. She seems relaxed, and acting much more like a normal person and more responsible roommate. I’ve even noticed she’s started to do chores around the house - I can’t overstate what a change that is, she normally lets rotten food pile up with clothes on the floor while she plays on her phone, and there’s only so much I can do since I work full time and the kids are more than a full time job. It occurs to me now - though I’m trying not to put much thinking into it - that her “looking for apartments” might have been a shot across my bow, and since I’ve backed off (and shut down for a few weeks), she relaxed. It’s possible, maybe even likely.
With the relaxed state comes more confusion. I was a little rattled on thanksgiving that with all the family togetherness - cooking, laughing, playing charades (her idea - she never plays games), that when it came to say thanks she had one for each of the kids but not even a passing thankfulness that I’m here or I exist, and it was just the 4 of us. That hurt for an hour or so until I was able to let go and accept it. I think it was the hot/cold change that jolted me, but I should have prepared for it. No expectations, right?
The incongruity of her attitude (family togetherness, coldness at dinner) got me to do some reading over on the MLC board, and luckily I stumbled across AmyC’s post about what she did/felt as the MLC spouse experiencing and doing that. It really touched me.
I’m not putting any stock or thinking into how to affect change in my W anymore - her journey is her journey, at her pace. But I am acquainting myself with any and all reading that will help me understand my situation, in addition to working on myself. And I was shocked to read AmyC’s experience and see just how many things matched up to my sitch: irrational disregard for things she used to care about (clean house, good financial choices, others’ feelings, family time), the pushing away of anything or anyone that would make her think, feel, or question herself, etc. MLC feels like a good match for my W’s behavior, and it helps me understand a few things if so - mostly, the notion that MLC comes from someone’s upbringing, and that that particular person would have gone thru MLC, married or not. That was a jolt to read, and helps me really solidify the “I didn’t break her, I can’t fix her” narrative. It’s NOT about me, and likely never has been.
Also in the MLC reading was seeing how HARD MLCers hide from reality, and that for many it REALLY does have to get worse before it gets better - they have to run to the end of their rope and lies for their rewritten narrative to unravel. I hope that’s not the case, but if it is, this is only the calm before a storm that may need to happen. Maybe my W will “wake up” before that.
——
The thing I’m pondering now is how to blend my previous practice of self-actualization and getting rid of NGS with my newfound stance of not pushing. This is more of a philosophical conundrum, since one is a “pushing” energy (pushing myself and my needs and my non-NGS essence into the world) and the other is a “passive/accepting” energy (letting what is and what others are, be, and allowing life to unfold.) I can feel the energy shift inside me, and I find it confusing to go from “push” to “accept” and back again - I’m just not sure yet how to rectify these two seemingly incongruous ideas. But I feel that, if I can get them in balance, I’ll have solved an important step for my own growth.
I want to add that I’m really digging into the MLC board and so much is falling into place from my reading.
In particular, this post, “Midlife Crisis for Dummies” is not only humorous (which is DEEPLY needed ) but is amazingly accurate. I’d say about 85% is a match for my sitch:
I want to add that I’m really digging into the MLC board and so much is falling into place from my reading.
In particular, this post, “Midlife Crisis for Dummies” is not only humorous (which is DEEPLY needed ) but is amazingly accurate. I’d say about 85% is a match for my sitch:
I would be careful with the diagnosing of the MLC. I have seen people jump to that conclusion time and time again here. Sometimes it is completely off base. But I get that every one wants to find a reason to explain what has happened and MLC is an easy one to latch on to. It could be the case in your sitch (I am not caught up) but I think it is used too often.
Originally Posted by LH19
Ok Hoch you have her diagnosed. How does that change anything? Are you prepared to live like this for 7-10 years?
Last edited by job; 11/25/2108:12 PM. Reason: added link to new thread
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
